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Please don’t confuse the Berlin metropolitan area as Wikipedia defines a Metropolitan area with the “Capital” region as some officials/agencies in Berlin-Brandenburg would like to define the region. According to Wikipedia: “A metropolitan area, metro area or metro is a region consisting of a densely populated urban core and its less-populated surrounding territories, sharing industry, infrastructure, and housing” – note that farming and other distant rural areas are not included. The metro area is shown for example as the yellow parts of the maps and by the lists of towns. Personally, I would also say it’s the area you can reach by public transport with a Berlin ABC ticket. The given reference http://www.berlin-brandenburg.de/daten-fakten/ also refers this as “Berliner Umland”.
The “Capital Region Berlin-Brandenburg” is a construction that government agencies are trying to push, but it simply includes all of Brandenburg with Berlin. It is true, that in the wider sense Brandenburg’s economy is generally, but not exclusively, oriented towards Berlin. Some day they may even become politically united. However, it is stretching it a bit far to say that vast rural areas such as the forests of the Uckermark or the swamps of the Spreewald belong to the metropolitan area of Berlin. It would be like saying all of Connecticut is part of the Hartford metropolitan area.
So, please adhere to the definition set by Wikipedia and do not follow some megalomaniac political redefinition. Alandeus ( talk) 13:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello Alandeus :) my point is that the only figures we have are the 6 million people, no source are mentioning 4½.
And recarding metropolitan areas, a metro area are not only urban, but can contain large rural areas who are afffected by the urban area in terms of commuting and influence.. As stated in Wikipedia's own site - A metropolitan area combines an urban agglomeration (the contiguous, built-up area) with zones not necessarily urban in character, but closely bound to the center by employment or other commerce. These outlying zones are sometimes known as a commuter belt, and may extend well beyond the urban zone.
Metro areas with large rural areas are common, here are some.
Seattle metropolitan area 3.5 mio people - 21,202 km2
Phoenix metropolitan area 4.2 mio people - 37,744 km2
Hamburg Metropolitan Region 5.2 mio people - 26,000 km2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 ( talk) 12:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
West Berlin was not legally part of West Germany and to state that it was compromises the factual accuracy of this article. Paul Austin ( talk) 13:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
In this article's second paragraph I find it stated that West Berlin was one of the states of the Federal Republic before the re-unification of Germany. In the 1980s I actually believed that to be the be the case. I know that Willi Brandt, who resided in West Berlin, served as chancellor of the Federal Republic before the re-unification. However, I also know that West Germany's laws allowed even citizens of East Germany to hold that office and others in West Germany, since they refused to recognize any distinction between different German citizenships. I think it was from reading Wikipedia's article on Germany's re-unification and its article on the Federal Republic that I came to think that Berlin was never incorporated in the Federal Republic until 1990. Is there a source for the assertion? Michael Hardy ( talk) 11:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Early in this article we find this:
I've always thought "federal state" is a lousy way to translate the German word Bundesland. The prefix bundes- does generally mean "federal", but in English the term "federal state" is often taken to mean a federated state, like the U.S.A. or like Germany or Brazil or any of various others (Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Mexico,....), i.e. a state composed of a union of smaller states.
But a difficulty arises: I don't know if the English language has any good term that refers to the concept that Bundesland refers to. It would be a common noun whose referents include things like Schleswig-Holstein, Wisconsin, and Alagoas.
Is there some reasonable term that could be used here instead of the misleading term "federal state"? Michael Hardy ( talk) 17:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The Etymology section should be redone, according to that of the German article. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 16:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi! I think the following topics should be covered by at least some compact articles, as they're relevant not just for Berlin:
Thanks & all the best, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 12:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello -
A Wikipedia Icon for Berlin linked to the Wikipedia article for Berlin is show in Google Earth in the Sierra Nevada mountains of the United States at the approximate coordinate of 38°45'N 119°22'W. Can this be fixed or can you tell me who I should notify? Thanks VFF0347 ( talk) 15:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC) VFF0347
It appears that someone close to Berlin, who might also not be a native English speaker, has been editing the page, and other copyeditors need to review the content for both grammar and tone. I have made numerous corrections today and also needed to add citations—I will continue to monitor the page.-- Soulparadox ( talk) 14:39, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
The article showing the sister cities and such, shows London with a crest. That is not the crest of London, is the crest of the City of London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.237.96.9 ( talk) 18:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
It appears that there is a sizable difference between the weather data listed on this page and the weather data listed on the Geography of Berlin page. Maybe I'm missing something, but comparing the two pages it appears that the mean annual sunshine hours for Berlin are a) 1,625.6; and b) 2,025.6.
Is someone interested in looking into this, determining which is more accurate, and then making the appropriate changes if necessary?
54.68.59.137 ( talk) 07:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 ( talk) 15:33, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
"The Döner kebab was invented in Berlin in 1971" is a common misperception in Germany. The "berlin style" of Döner kebab sandwich, not surprisingly, developed in Berlin, through the 70s and 80s. But the legend that the Döner was "invented" there is highly misleading. The Döner meat itself has been served in Turkey for more than a century, and Döner sandwiches as snack or street food have been sold in Turkey since at least the 1950s. Statement needs clarification or removal. Discussion in Talk:Doner_kebab IamNotU ( talk) 18:16, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
There, I fixed it. -- IamNotU ( talk) 17:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
I added the two files shown at right to illustrate how Berlin has changed since its reunification. They show the same location, as evidenced by the signpost marking the intersection of Charlottenstraße and Zimmerstraße, and, in my opinion, deliver the full value of a thousand words in what they depict. I am certain, having taken the 1986 picture myself, that no arrangement of prose could have titillated my imagination nearly as much as it was upon seeing the changes in 2D.
They were subsequently removed for the following summarized reason: "one division pic is enough here". I would agree, except these images were not illustrating the division of Berlin, but instead: how drastically it changed upon reunification, and by all reasonable measure, how quickly as well. I think they improve the article, and am keen to know if others agree. Best regards.-- John Cline ( talk) 05:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
I think there should be an article on how "West" and "East" co-exist in the post-reunification era, and why it's perhaps a misnomer to talk about just "Berlin". There's a bunch of fascinating sources on this topic; here's a sample: -- Coin945 ( talk) 05:40, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
This is from the ingress:
"Berlin is the second most populous city proper in the European Union and the seventh most populous urban area in the European Union. Located in northeastern Germany on the banks of the rivers Spree and Havel, it is the centre of the Berlin-Brandenburg Metropolitan Region, which has roughly 6 million residents from more than 180 nations, making it the sixth most populous urban area in the European Union."
So its the seventh most populous, then in the next sentence its the sixth. Seems both is based on the same source and the same year. I don't read French so I can't say what is right, but it should be corrected. Ulflarsen ( talk) 12:33, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
Be aware! This edit might anger or frustrate the reader because the issue it addresses is so minor it could be called irrelevant. I would have edited the article myself, but unfortunately I don't understand how to obtain coordinates from the source used in all articles on cities.
The following coordinate fix is needed for Berlin:
- The coordinate on the page is located outside the city borders.
The following coordinate fix is needed in general:
- Coordinates are presented in all articles on cities. It should be noted why this exact location is chosen. Coordinates represent a point (non-dimensional) on the earths surface (two dimensional). This raises the question: "What point within the area covered by the city is chosen coordinate?". Does it represent location of some important building, or the cities historical or geometrical center, etc?
— CreatorOfYellow ( talk) 21:08, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
There's been a photo of the East Side Gallery in the lead photomontage since at least February 2015 (though not always the same photo). A few weeks ago, it was replaced with a photo of a monument at the Berlin Wall Memorial. Several people have tried to put it back, but the editor always reverts them. I'd like to discuss some kind of consensus about it. Which site do you prefer, and which photo?
Personally, I support the East Side Gallery as being a world-famous emblem of Berlin. The Berlin Wall Memorial is important in its own way, but just doesn't have that kind of status. For the photo, I'd like to see one of the more well-known artworks, ideally from before the fence that's now there. Some suggestions:
The first is one of the most famous, and the only work with its own Wikipedia article. I especially like the couple kissing in front of the mural. Thierry Noir is the first artist to be known for painting the wall, having done so since the mid-80s, and his figures are recognizable around Berlin; these two photos were both previously in the photomontage for some time, so already have support. There are of course other possibilities... -- IamNotU ( talk) 17:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
People, people! This is a city article, not a mere history or tourism article. We now have 3(!) memorials in the lead collage, with the wall monument, Holocaust memorial and Checkpoint Charlie. That's way too much. One should be sufficient. I opt to restore this version (including this ESG photo), it has been stable and represented various aspects of the city without any POV tendencies. Thank you. -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 13:48, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
We have to understand that no one is going to be 100% satisfied with any single photomontage of Berlin that we can come up with-- for a city with so much diversity in sights and monuments, this is quite impossible. Therefore we should strive to find the best balance of selection for this montage, while taking into account all points of view--- it should be a carefully constructed overview of the diversity in architecture, cityscape, and history of the city. I am still convinced that the montage as it stood for many months prior to the more recent edits had best achieved this; its long standing lifespan confirms this. The previous montage had a good balance of monuments/sights from various eras that are now no longer represented, such as the Kaiser Wilhelm Gedaechtniskirche (now nowhere to be seen in the entire article) and the Oberbaum bridge.
As to the Berlin Wall, I agree that it should somehow be included-- that said, the East Side Gallery, regardless of its status as a memorial or not, has always looked the best in the montage, while also offering an element that represents the important aspect of street art culture in Berlin. It is understandable that many are critical of this aspect of Berlin culture, and that this is not unique for Berlin, per se. But, being able to cover both the historical element of the wall and the significant countercultural element of Berlin culture (which grew out of the object on which it is displayed) in one photograph for the montage has always been the most representative choice IMO. Also, from a simply pragmatic point of view, it is much easier to acknowledge the wall in a small photomontage when it is colorful, as opposed to a brown square with some frames of even tinier photographs in them. The montage therefore needs to not only be representative, but also chosen in a way that viewers can identify the important elements without having to enlarge the individual images.
InfinitePS (
talk) 04:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Also, I do agree that certain monuments, like the Siegessaeule, Holocaust Memorial, and a more representative photo of the Berlin Wall Memorial should be highlighted somewhere else in the article. I have found it consistently appalling that there is not a single image of the Siegessauele anywhere in the article, an important secondary landmark. Also after the current edits of the gallery, the Kaiser Wilhelm Gedaechtniskirche is also nowhere to be seen, as this was the only place where it was shown. InfinitePS ( talk) 04:49, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I think any of the above gallery suggestions are well composed.-- To reply to
Kharon, I understand we're all very particular in how we want this article to represent the city, but please keep in mind that the gallery shouldn't just be focused on tourist sites. I have spend quite some time in Berlin and have a solid understanding of how people of different backgrounds might perceive the city, including residents, tourists, historians, architects, artists, etc. Berlin is not just defined by those who live inside of the city. In fact, nowadays, the boundaries are blurred between those who actually live in Berlin and those who simply visit for a longer term. I'm still flexible in my own impressions and acknowledge other arguments, but I do think that simply placing a bunch of post-WW2 memorials in the main gallery is not representative of the complexity of the city as a whole.
Yes, the Oberbaumbruecke may not be the most iconic sight in Berlin, but given that the Red Rathaus is already visible in the skyline view from Tiergarten, it is the only other worthy site that highlights the ubiquitous red brick architecture, while also including a view of the Spree (no where else seen in the gallery), and while also being a symbol of the reunification of the once divided city (aside from the Brandenburg gate)-- I also think that an additional depiction of a U-bahn on the bridge would add yet another important element nowhere to be seen in the montage (i.e. the primary mode of transport for many within the city)- the fact that the Oberbaum bridge can cover so many aspects of Berlin in a single photograph, which none of the others address, makes it a superior choice regardless whether everyone in the world has heard about the bridge or not-- it is a reprententation of Berlin and defines the city in a concise and all-encompassing way.
73.243.20.37 (
talk) 08:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for the length of the following, for such a seemingly small issue as a few photos. But I feel it's important to follow the process of consensus based on accurate information and arguments, especially for the lead of this major article. Kharon has asserted that three of the six photos are inappropriate and needed to be removed from the photomontage - indeed from the article altogether. With regard to the reasoning given for this, I offer the following fact-checks:
The East Side Gallery was an initiative in 1990 of the newly-unified national artists' organizations of East and West Germany, the VBK and the BBK. It was the first official gesamtdeutsch art project of post-wall Germany. Over 100 recognized artists were invited to create original artworks on the section of unpainted eastern wall. According to them it is "understood as a monument to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the peaceful negotiation of borders and conventions between societies and people", and has more than three million visitors annually. [1] The murals were described by Deutsche Welle as an "artistic response to one of the most important moments in history". [2] The artworks were commissioned as one of the last official acts of the Council of Ministers of the GDR, and a year later the gallery was granted Denkmalschutz, heritage-protected landmark status, by the new government of Berlin. The murals and gallery were repainted and renovated in 2009, with the involvement of nearly all the original artists, by the city of Berlin, at a cost of over two million Euros.
Several books have been published, and a feature-length documentary film produced, about the artworks and the gallery. According to Deutsche Welle, the "paintings such as Dmitri Vrubel's "Bruderkuss" between Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev and GDR leader Eric Honecker or Günther Schaefer's "Vaterland," blending the German and Israeli flags have become iconic". [2] [3] High-quality images of the paintings can be found here. With this in mind you may judge for yourself the accuracy of Kharon's objections to the East Side Gallery photo as being inappropriate and needing to be removed, on the basis that it is simply some old dirty concrete with nondescript "teenygangsta" graffiti; that it fails to be a serious memorial to the dead (which no one has claimed it to be); that a gallery of street art in East Berlin, commemorating the fall of the wall, is "completely fake" because it failed to exist before the wall fell; or that it was not built by the city.
With regard to the other two photos that have also been removed: For more than a century, Oberbaumbrücke has been the longest, most well-known, and most picturesque bridge in Berlin. It began in 1902 to carry the first Berlin U-Bahn line across the Spree River, which it continues to do today. It is the official emblem and landmark of the central district of Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg, and an important symbol of a reunified Berlin. The skyline of the western downtown/Zoo area, with the article's only image of the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church, needs no introduction. Again you may judge for yourself the accuracy of the objections to both of these photos as being inappropriate and needing to be removed, on the basis of the surprising claim of a Berliner having never heard of them - an argument which is in any case not valid even if true.
My own thoughts are very much in line with those already well-articulated by the others: Horst-schlaemma, InfinitePS, and 73.243.20.37. The selection of the lead images will always be to some extent subjective, as it's not possible to find a reliable source that says "these six images are the objectively correct representation of Berlin." There are many factors to be considered in choosing the subjects, not only popularity with tourists, or official government status. Sometimes a photo of a lesser-known subject may be included for diversity as well as for being particularly scenic or picturesque, for example the Unisphere in the excellent New York City article's photomontage. The choice must be balanced and follow the neutral point of view policy, but each individual editor will have their own point of view about how best to accomplish that. For that reason it is especially important to follow the process of consensus among editors.
There are dozens of subjects that could conceivably be illustrated. The Brandenburg Gate and the Reichstag are nearly unquestionable. The downtown skyline - typical for every major-city article - with the TV Tower, and that of the western side with the Memorial Church, are also I think essential. The church is a fitting symbol of grief over the loss of lives and destruction, on all sides of the war, and the message to never forget. But I agree with Horst-schlaemma's view that adding additional sombre war memorials such as the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, and the Window of Remembrance picturing those who were killed at the Berlin Wall, would be too much. Such an overweight representation also might not be consistent with the principle of "least shock value" in lead images, explained in the manual of style, nor with its "strive for variety" advice.
Although a case could possibly be argued for replacing the East Side Gallery or Oberbaumbrücke with Checkpoint Charlie (or any number of other subjects) I feel they are both the stronger candidates. I think it is natural to represent the Berlin Wall. But given the reasoning in the preceding paragraph, I feel the East Side Gallery better emphasizes the hopefulness and creative energy surrounding its fall and the rebuilding of Germany, and gives a counterpoint to the Memorial Church, as well as giving a nod to Berlin's reputation as a city of artists. Finally, the view up the Spree river, showing the Oberbaumbrücke, is both scenic and historical, shows an alternative to the "blockbuster" tourist attractions, and is not in any way out of place. So far I have not seen any proposal or persuasive argument for a replacement of any of these that would clearly improve the article. -- IamNotU ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
References
I'm certain to have seen 1701 as the year Berlin became Prussia's capital before. But can anyone find a source ? Had a look in our Prussia article. The year is 1701 , but no source there either. A German encyclopedia or book on the history of Berlin perhaps ? (Why the American flag, by the way ? Germany is after all not very far away from England - and I think we should use real English here) Boeing720 ( talk) 23:27, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I have added figures for "other" totals - calculated by subtracting the figures for the countries in each region that are displayed in the table, from the total given for each region in the source (Europa zusammen pg. 18, Amerika zusammen pg. 20, Asien zusammen pg. 21). 212.39.89.245 and XodoX, I appreciate your contributions to updating the table with new figures. In the future it would also be good if you or others are updating the table, to update the "other figures as well. Otherwise a skewed picture of the demographics is given, with over 235,000 people missing... -- IamNotU ( talk) 13:57, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is not the population density listed as under most other major cities in Europe?
/info/en/?search=List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density
The fact that Berlin is a vast city by area is known. As every city can define it´s borders to it´s own liking. What is the reason for the population density not to be shown? Most peculiar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.150.9.77 ( talk) 18:57, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Kharon, in this edit: [6], has changed the "Climate" section from:
Berlin has an oceanic climate – ( Köppen: Cfb), [1] the eastern part of the city has a slight continental influence...
to:
Berlin has an oceanic climate – ( Köppen: Cfb), [2] because Berlin is a very water rich federal state. [3] The eastern part of the city has a slight continental influence...
There are multiple issues with this edit, the main ones being:
For these reasons, I removed the added statement, in accordance with WP:V and WP:NOR. Rather than just delete the reference, I moved it to the "Topography" section and added some information about groundwater from it. See this edit: [7].
In addition, the citation's URL pointed to a Google Translate machine translation of the article. It's my understanding that the consensus reached in this rfc: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 130#Links to Google Translate, which specifically addressed this question, was that citations should not link to Google Translate. I changed this, and made some other corrections to the citation (wrong website, poorly-formatted title, etc.).
Kharon reverted my edit as "nonsense", reinstating theirs: [8]. I'm asking for others' opinions and a consensus about this. In the meantime, I have restored the article to the previous status-quo, pending outcome of this discussion. -- IamNotU ( talk) 23:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Pinging Kubaski, who has made significant contributions to the "Climate" section recently, and to that sentence. Also pinging 2601:188:180:F040:E973:7D9D:B169:D20E ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), who deleted part of the same sentence earlier that day, without explanation, could you explain why? -- IamNotU ( talk) 00:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I wonder why the article lacks information about the role the city plays within histories of genocides (the Holocaust), racism (as the capital of Germany) and European White Supremacy in general. Instead, the article seems to paint a rosy picture of a post-race paradise for a reason that I could only attribute to self-promoting marketing-oriented Berlin-based and German Wikipedia editors. -- 2600:1010:B048:BD91:848E:37DE:A1BA:A8C8 ( talk) 03:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Changed the intro a bit. Heading east of the confluence of Elbe and Saale, one passes south of Berlin, so the claim of Berlin being to the east of the Saale is a bit tall imho. North to Northeast would be more like it, but given the geography, not east. Keeping in mind that banal facts do not have to be referenced. Berlin is commonly referred to as being east of the Elbe, if a riverine reference is used. Referring the location relative to the Saale as a main description is OR, if not by the author, then by the source. Gotta go now - have to mention in the article of Edinburgh that place's north of the Thames. If you catch my drift. No offense intended, -- G-41614 ( talk) 08:20, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
This structure may be iconic, but of european history as suggested in the text? I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of europeans who'd beg to differ. As a symbol of change after the Cold War, it would be an icon of global history, and it certainly is such regarding to german history. But explicitly european? Hm. Who said that? Regards, -- G-41614 ( talk) 06:11, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
When I was in Germany a couple years ago it only got as far as astronomical twilight, it was astronomical twilight at solar midnight rather than complete darkness. Does Berlin get complete darkness at winter solstice?, Berlin's latitude is 52.5 degrees therefore it falls in astronomical twilight on the summer solstice, complete darkness doesn't occur within 41.5 degrees of either pole on summer solstice.
-- 98.31.29.4 ( talk) 00:22, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
On the side panel Population of city is missing even though it shows on the edit page. 104.3.143.81 ( talk) 14:56, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
I don’t edit Wikipedia so apologies if this isn’t proper procedure but in the 20th-21st century section of the page it says Hitler announced the results of his design contest in 1910. Not sure what the real year is but it should be sometime in the 1930s. 46.183.103.8 ( talk) 18:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
This article has around 180 "Lua error: not enough memory" errors at the bottom, currently starting in Berlin#References. I asked about the issue at Module talk:Mapframe#Lua error: not enough memory pointing out that it is due to the complex {{ maplink}} in the infobox. A reply suggested removing the Germany map. Any thoughts on that? WP:VPT could be used to ask if other solutions might work. Johnuniq ( talk) 04:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia and official sources give the area as 891.7 square kilometers. What's going on here? 2A02:8109:B60F:B300:60E3:E2C4:BB5:E05A ( talk) 22:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
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Berlin was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Please don’t confuse the Berlin metropolitan area as Wikipedia defines a Metropolitan area with the “Capital” region as some officials/agencies in Berlin-Brandenburg would like to define the region. According to Wikipedia: “A metropolitan area, metro area or metro is a region consisting of a densely populated urban core and its less-populated surrounding territories, sharing industry, infrastructure, and housing” – note that farming and other distant rural areas are not included. The metro area is shown for example as the yellow parts of the maps and by the lists of towns. Personally, I would also say it’s the area you can reach by public transport with a Berlin ABC ticket. The given reference http://www.berlin-brandenburg.de/daten-fakten/ also refers this as “Berliner Umland”.
The “Capital Region Berlin-Brandenburg” is a construction that government agencies are trying to push, but it simply includes all of Brandenburg with Berlin. It is true, that in the wider sense Brandenburg’s economy is generally, but not exclusively, oriented towards Berlin. Some day they may even become politically united. However, it is stretching it a bit far to say that vast rural areas such as the forests of the Uckermark or the swamps of the Spreewald belong to the metropolitan area of Berlin. It would be like saying all of Connecticut is part of the Hartford metropolitan area.
So, please adhere to the definition set by Wikipedia and do not follow some megalomaniac political redefinition. Alandeus ( talk) 13:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Hello Alandeus :) my point is that the only figures we have are the 6 million people, no source are mentioning 4½.
And recarding metropolitan areas, a metro area are not only urban, but can contain large rural areas who are afffected by the urban area in terms of commuting and influence.. As stated in Wikipedia's own site - A metropolitan area combines an urban agglomeration (the contiguous, built-up area) with zones not necessarily urban in character, but closely bound to the center by employment or other commerce. These outlying zones are sometimes known as a commuter belt, and may extend well beyond the urban zone.
Metro areas with large rural areas are common, here are some.
Seattle metropolitan area 3.5 mio people - 21,202 km2
Phoenix metropolitan area 4.2 mio people - 37,744 km2
Hamburg Metropolitan Region 5.2 mio people - 26,000 km2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 ( talk) 12:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
West Berlin was not legally part of West Germany and to state that it was compromises the factual accuracy of this article. Paul Austin ( talk) 13:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
In this article's second paragraph I find it stated that West Berlin was one of the states of the Federal Republic before the re-unification of Germany. In the 1980s I actually believed that to be the be the case. I know that Willi Brandt, who resided in West Berlin, served as chancellor of the Federal Republic before the re-unification. However, I also know that West Germany's laws allowed even citizens of East Germany to hold that office and others in West Germany, since they refused to recognize any distinction between different German citizenships. I think it was from reading Wikipedia's article on Germany's re-unification and its article on the Federal Republic that I came to think that Berlin was never incorporated in the Federal Republic until 1990. Is there a source for the assertion? Michael Hardy ( talk) 11:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
Early in this article we find this:
I've always thought "federal state" is a lousy way to translate the German word Bundesland. The prefix bundes- does generally mean "federal", but in English the term "federal state" is often taken to mean a federated state, like the U.S.A. or like Germany or Brazil or any of various others (Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Mexico,....), i.e. a state composed of a union of smaller states.
But a difficulty arises: I don't know if the English language has any good term that refers to the concept that Bundesland refers to. It would be a common noun whose referents include things like Schleswig-Holstein, Wisconsin, and Alagoas.
Is there some reasonable term that could be used here instead of the misleading term "federal state"? Michael Hardy ( talk) 17:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The Etymology section should be redone, according to that of the German article. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 16:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi! I think the following topics should be covered by at least some compact articles, as they're relevant not just for Berlin:
Thanks & all the best, Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 12:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello -
A Wikipedia Icon for Berlin linked to the Wikipedia article for Berlin is show in Google Earth in the Sierra Nevada mountains of the United States at the approximate coordinate of 38°45'N 119°22'W. Can this be fixed or can you tell me who I should notify? Thanks VFF0347 ( talk) 15:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC) VFF0347
It appears that someone close to Berlin, who might also not be a native English speaker, has been editing the page, and other copyeditors need to review the content for both grammar and tone. I have made numerous corrections today and also needed to add citations—I will continue to monitor the page.-- Soulparadox ( talk) 14:39, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
The article showing the sister cities and such, shows London with a crest. That is not the crest of London, is the crest of the City of London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.237.96.9 ( talk) 18:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
It appears that there is a sizable difference between the weather data listed on this page and the weather data listed on the Geography of Berlin page. Maybe I'm missing something, but comparing the two pages it appears that the mean annual sunshine hours for Berlin are a) 1,625.6; and b) 2,025.6.
Is someone interested in looking into this, determining which is more accurate, and then making the appropriate changes if necessary?
54.68.59.137 ( talk) 07:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 ( talk) 15:33, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
"The Döner kebab was invented in Berlin in 1971" is a common misperception in Germany. The "berlin style" of Döner kebab sandwich, not surprisingly, developed in Berlin, through the 70s and 80s. But the legend that the Döner was "invented" there is highly misleading. The Döner meat itself has been served in Turkey for more than a century, and Döner sandwiches as snack or street food have been sold in Turkey since at least the 1950s. Statement needs clarification or removal. Discussion in Talk:Doner_kebab IamNotU ( talk) 18:16, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
There, I fixed it. -- IamNotU ( talk) 17:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
I added the two files shown at right to illustrate how Berlin has changed since its reunification. They show the same location, as evidenced by the signpost marking the intersection of Charlottenstraße and Zimmerstraße, and, in my opinion, deliver the full value of a thousand words in what they depict. I am certain, having taken the 1986 picture myself, that no arrangement of prose could have titillated my imagination nearly as much as it was upon seeing the changes in 2D.
They were subsequently removed for the following summarized reason: "one division pic is enough here". I would agree, except these images were not illustrating the division of Berlin, but instead: how drastically it changed upon reunification, and by all reasonable measure, how quickly as well. I think they improve the article, and am keen to know if others agree. Best regards.-- John Cline ( talk) 05:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
I think there should be an article on how "West" and "East" co-exist in the post-reunification era, and why it's perhaps a misnomer to talk about just "Berlin". There's a bunch of fascinating sources on this topic; here's a sample: -- Coin945 ( talk) 05:40, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
This is from the ingress:
"Berlin is the second most populous city proper in the European Union and the seventh most populous urban area in the European Union. Located in northeastern Germany on the banks of the rivers Spree and Havel, it is the centre of the Berlin-Brandenburg Metropolitan Region, which has roughly 6 million residents from more than 180 nations, making it the sixth most populous urban area in the European Union."
So its the seventh most populous, then in the next sentence its the sixth. Seems both is based on the same source and the same year. I don't read French so I can't say what is right, but it should be corrected. Ulflarsen ( talk) 12:33, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
Be aware! This edit might anger or frustrate the reader because the issue it addresses is so minor it could be called irrelevant. I would have edited the article myself, but unfortunately I don't understand how to obtain coordinates from the source used in all articles on cities.
The following coordinate fix is needed for Berlin:
- The coordinate on the page is located outside the city borders.
The following coordinate fix is needed in general:
- Coordinates are presented in all articles on cities. It should be noted why this exact location is chosen. Coordinates represent a point (non-dimensional) on the earths surface (two dimensional). This raises the question: "What point within the area covered by the city is chosen coordinate?". Does it represent location of some important building, or the cities historical or geometrical center, etc?
— CreatorOfYellow ( talk) 21:08, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
There's been a photo of the East Side Gallery in the lead photomontage since at least February 2015 (though not always the same photo). A few weeks ago, it was replaced with a photo of a monument at the Berlin Wall Memorial. Several people have tried to put it back, but the editor always reverts them. I'd like to discuss some kind of consensus about it. Which site do you prefer, and which photo?
Personally, I support the East Side Gallery as being a world-famous emblem of Berlin. The Berlin Wall Memorial is important in its own way, but just doesn't have that kind of status. For the photo, I'd like to see one of the more well-known artworks, ideally from before the fence that's now there. Some suggestions:
The first is one of the most famous, and the only work with its own Wikipedia article. I especially like the couple kissing in front of the mural. Thierry Noir is the first artist to be known for painting the wall, having done so since the mid-80s, and his figures are recognizable around Berlin; these two photos were both previously in the photomontage for some time, so already have support. There are of course other possibilities... -- IamNotU ( talk) 17:08, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
People, people! This is a city article, not a mere history or tourism article. We now have 3(!) memorials in the lead collage, with the wall monument, Holocaust memorial and Checkpoint Charlie. That's way too much. One should be sufficient. I opt to restore this version (including this ESG photo), it has been stable and represented various aspects of the city without any POV tendencies. Thank you. -- Horst-schlaemma ( talk) 13:48, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
We have to understand that no one is going to be 100% satisfied with any single photomontage of Berlin that we can come up with-- for a city with so much diversity in sights and monuments, this is quite impossible. Therefore we should strive to find the best balance of selection for this montage, while taking into account all points of view--- it should be a carefully constructed overview of the diversity in architecture, cityscape, and history of the city. I am still convinced that the montage as it stood for many months prior to the more recent edits had best achieved this; its long standing lifespan confirms this. The previous montage had a good balance of monuments/sights from various eras that are now no longer represented, such as the Kaiser Wilhelm Gedaechtniskirche (now nowhere to be seen in the entire article) and the Oberbaum bridge.
As to the Berlin Wall, I agree that it should somehow be included-- that said, the East Side Gallery, regardless of its status as a memorial or not, has always looked the best in the montage, while also offering an element that represents the important aspect of street art culture in Berlin. It is understandable that many are critical of this aspect of Berlin culture, and that this is not unique for Berlin, per se. But, being able to cover both the historical element of the wall and the significant countercultural element of Berlin culture (which grew out of the object on which it is displayed) in one photograph for the montage has always been the most representative choice IMO. Also, from a simply pragmatic point of view, it is much easier to acknowledge the wall in a small photomontage when it is colorful, as opposed to a brown square with some frames of even tinier photographs in them. The montage therefore needs to not only be representative, but also chosen in a way that viewers can identify the important elements without having to enlarge the individual images.
InfinitePS (
talk) 04:35, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
Also, I do agree that certain monuments, like the Siegessaeule, Holocaust Memorial, and a more representative photo of the Berlin Wall Memorial should be highlighted somewhere else in the article. I have found it consistently appalling that there is not a single image of the Siegessauele anywhere in the article, an important secondary landmark. Also after the current edits of the gallery, the Kaiser Wilhelm Gedaechtniskirche is also nowhere to be seen, as this was the only place where it was shown. InfinitePS ( talk) 04:49, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I think any of the above gallery suggestions are well composed.-- To reply to
Kharon, I understand we're all very particular in how we want this article to represent the city, but please keep in mind that the gallery shouldn't just be focused on tourist sites. I have spend quite some time in Berlin and have a solid understanding of how people of different backgrounds might perceive the city, including residents, tourists, historians, architects, artists, etc. Berlin is not just defined by those who live inside of the city. In fact, nowadays, the boundaries are blurred between those who actually live in Berlin and those who simply visit for a longer term. I'm still flexible in my own impressions and acknowledge other arguments, but I do think that simply placing a bunch of post-WW2 memorials in the main gallery is not representative of the complexity of the city as a whole.
Yes, the Oberbaumbruecke may not be the most iconic sight in Berlin, but given that the Red Rathaus is already visible in the skyline view from Tiergarten, it is the only other worthy site that highlights the ubiquitous red brick architecture, while also including a view of the Spree (no where else seen in the gallery), and while also being a symbol of the reunification of the once divided city (aside from the Brandenburg gate)-- I also think that an additional depiction of a U-bahn on the bridge would add yet another important element nowhere to be seen in the montage (i.e. the primary mode of transport for many within the city)- the fact that the Oberbaum bridge can cover so many aspects of Berlin in a single photograph, which none of the others address, makes it a superior choice regardless whether everyone in the world has heard about the bridge or not-- it is a reprententation of Berlin and defines the city in a concise and all-encompassing way.
73.243.20.37 (
talk) 08:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for the length of the following, for such a seemingly small issue as a few photos. But I feel it's important to follow the process of consensus based on accurate information and arguments, especially for the lead of this major article. Kharon has asserted that three of the six photos are inappropriate and needed to be removed from the photomontage - indeed from the article altogether. With regard to the reasoning given for this, I offer the following fact-checks:
The East Side Gallery was an initiative in 1990 of the newly-unified national artists' organizations of East and West Germany, the VBK and the BBK. It was the first official gesamtdeutsch art project of post-wall Germany. Over 100 recognized artists were invited to create original artworks on the section of unpainted eastern wall. According to them it is "understood as a monument to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the peaceful negotiation of borders and conventions between societies and people", and has more than three million visitors annually. [1] The murals were described by Deutsche Welle as an "artistic response to one of the most important moments in history". [2] The artworks were commissioned as one of the last official acts of the Council of Ministers of the GDR, and a year later the gallery was granted Denkmalschutz, heritage-protected landmark status, by the new government of Berlin. The murals and gallery were repainted and renovated in 2009, with the involvement of nearly all the original artists, by the city of Berlin, at a cost of over two million Euros.
Several books have been published, and a feature-length documentary film produced, about the artworks and the gallery. According to Deutsche Welle, the "paintings such as Dmitri Vrubel's "Bruderkuss" between Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev and GDR leader Eric Honecker or Günther Schaefer's "Vaterland," blending the German and Israeli flags have become iconic". [2] [3] High-quality images of the paintings can be found here. With this in mind you may judge for yourself the accuracy of Kharon's objections to the East Side Gallery photo as being inappropriate and needing to be removed, on the basis that it is simply some old dirty concrete with nondescript "teenygangsta" graffiti; that it fails to be a serious memorial to the dead (which no one has claimed it to be); that a gallery of street art in East Berlin, commemorating the fall of the wall, is "completely fake" because it failed to exist before the wall fell; or that it was not built by the city.
With regard to the other two photos that have also been removed: For more than a century, Oberbaumbrücke has been the longest, most well-known, and most picturesque bridge in Berlin. It began in 1902 to carry the first Berlin U-Bahn line across the Spree River, which it continues to do today. It is the official emblem and landmark of the central district of Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg, and an important symbol of a reunified Berlin. The skyline of the western downtown/Zoo area, with the article's only image of the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church, needs no introduction. Again you may judge for yourself the accuracy of the objections to both of these photos as being inappropriate and needing to be removed, on the basis of the surprising claim of a Berliner having never heard of them - an argument which is in any case not valid even if true.
My own thoughts are very much in line with those already well-articulated by the others: Horst-schlaemma, InfinitePS, and 73.243.20.37. The selection of the lead images will always be to some extent subjective, as it's not possible to find a reliable source that says "these six images are the objectively correct representation of Berlin." There are many factors to be considered in choosing the subjects, not only popularity with tourists, or official government status. Sometimes a photo of a lesser-known subject may be included for diversity as well as for being particularly scenic or picturesque, for example the Unisphere in the excellent New York City article's photomontage. The choice must be balanced and follow the neutral point of view policy, but each individual editor will have their own point of view about how best to accomplish that. For that reason it is especially important to follow the process of consensus among editors.
There are dozens of subjects that could conceivably be illustrated. The Brandenburg Gate and the Reichstag are nearly unquestionable. The downtown skyline - typical for every major-city article - with the TV Tower, and that of the western side with the Memorial Church, are also I think essential. The church is a fitting symbol of grief over the loss of lives and destruction, on all sides of the war, and the message to never forget. But I agree with Horst-schlaemma's view that adding additional sombre war memorials such as the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, and the Window of Remembrance picturing those who were killed at the Berlin Wall, would be too much. Such an overweight representation also might not be consistent with the principle of "least shock value" in lead images, explained in the manual of style, nor with its "strive for variety" advice.
Although a case could possibly be argued for replacing the East Side Gallery or Oberbaumbrücke with Checkpoint Charlie (or any number of other subjects) I feel they are both the stronger candidates. I think it is natural to represent the Berlin Wall. But given the reasoning in the preceding paragraph, I feel the East Side Gallery better emphasizes the hopefulness and creative energy surrounding its fall and the rebuilding of Germany, and gives a counterpoint to the Memorial Church, as well as giving a nod to Berlin's reputation as a city of artists. Finally, the view up the Spree river, showing the Oberbaumbrücke, is both scenic and historical, shows an alternative to the "blockbuster" tourist attractions, and is not in any way out of place. So far I have not seen any proposal or persuasive argument for a replacement of any of these that would clearly improve the article. -- IamNotU ( talk) 02:55, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
References
I'm certain to have seen 1701 as the year Berlin became Prussia's capital before. But can anyone find a source ? Had a look in our Prussia article. The year is 1701 , but no source there either. A German encyclopedia or book on the history of Berlin perhaps ? (Why the American flag, by the way ? Germany is after all not very far away from England - and I think we should use real English here) Boeing720 ( talk) 23:27, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
I have added figures for "other" totals - calculated by subtracting the figures for the countries in each region that are displayed in the table, from the total given for each region in the source (Europa zusammen pg. 18, Amerika zusammen pg. 20, Asien zusammen pg. 21). 212.39.89.245 and XodoX, I appreciate your contributions to updating the table with new figures. In the future it would also be good if you or others are updating the table, to update the "other figures as well. Otherwise a skewed picture of the demographics is given, with over 235,000 people missing... -- IamNotU ( talk) 13:57, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is not the population density listed as under most other major cities in Europe?
/info/en/?search=List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density
The fact that Berlin is a vast city by area is known. As every city can define it´s borders to it´s own liking. What is the reason for the population density not to be shown? Most peculiar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.150.9.77 ( talk) 18:57, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Kharon, in this edit: [6], has changed the "Climate" section from:
Berlin has an oceanic climate – ( Köppen: Cfb), [1] the eastern part of the city has a slight continental influence...
to:
Berlin has an oceanic climate – ( Köppen: Cfb), [2] because Berlin is a very water rich federal state. [3] The eastern part of the city has a slight continental influence...
There are multiple issues with this edit, the main ones being:
For these reasons, I removed the added statement, in accordance with WP:V and WP:NOR. Rather than just delete the reference, I moved it to the "Topography" section and added some information about groundwater from it. See this edit: [7].
In addition, the citation's URL pointed to a Google Translate machine translation of the article. It's my understanding that the consensus reached in this rfc: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 130#Links to Google Translate, which specifically addressed this question, was that citations should not link to Google Translate. I changed this, and made some other corrections to the citation (wrong website, poorly-formatted title, etc.).
Kharon reverted my edit as "nonsense", reinstating theirs: [8]. I'm asking for others' opinions and a consensus about this. In the meantime, I have restored the article to the previous status-quo, pending outcome of this discussion. -- IamNotU ( talk) 23:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Pinging Kubaski, who has made significant contributions to the "Climate" section recently, and to that sentence. Also pinging 2601:188:180:F040:E973:7D9D:B169:D20E ( talk · contribs · WHOIS), who deleted part of the same sentence earlier that day, without explanation, could you explain why? -- IamNotU ( talk) 00:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
References
I wonder why the article lacks information about the role the city plays within histories of genocides (the Holocaust), racism (as the capital of Germany) and European White Supremacy in general. Instead, the article seems to paint a rosy picture of a post-race paradise for a reason that I could only attribute to self-promoting marketing-oriented Berlin-based and German Wikipedia editors. -- 2600:1010:B048:BD91:848E:37DE:A1BA:A8C8 ( talk) 03:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
Changed the intro a bit. Heading east of the confluence of Elbe and Saale, one passes south of Berlin, so the claim of Berlin being to the east of the Saale is a bit tall imho. North to Northeast would be more like it, but given the geography, not east. Keeping in mind that banal facts do not have to be referenced. Berlin is commonly referred to as being east of the Elbe, if a riverine reference is used. Referring the location relative to the Saale as a main description is OR, if not by the author, then by the source. Gotta go now - have to mention in the article of Edinburgh that place's north of the Thames. If you catch my drift. No offense intended, -- G-41614 ( talk) 08:20, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
This structure may be iconic, but of european history as suggested in the text? I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of europeans who'd beg to differ. As a symbol of change after the Cold War, it would be an icon of global history, and it certainly is such regarding to german history. But explicitly european? Hm. Who said that? Regards, -- G-41614 ( talk) 06:11, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
When I was in Germany a couple years ago it only got as far as astronomical twilight, it was astronomical twilight at solar midnight rather than complete darkness. Does Berlin get complete darkness at winter solstice?, Berlin's latitude is 52.5 degrees therefore it falls in astronomical twilight on the summer solstice, complete darkness doesn't occur within 41.5 degrees of either pole on summer solstice.
-- 98.31.29.4 ( talk) 00:22, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 19:51, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
On the side panel Population of city is missing even though it shows on the edit page. 104.3.143.81 ( talk) 14:56, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
I don’t edit Wikipedia so apologies if this isn’t proper procedure but in the 20th-21st century section of the page it says Hitler announced the results of his design contest in 1910. Not sure what the real year is but it should be sometime in the 1930s. 46.183.103.8 ( talk) 18:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
This article has around 180 "Lua error: not enough memory" errors at the bottom, currently starting in Berlin#References. I asked about the issue at Module talk:Mapframe#Lua error: not enough memory pointing out that it is due to the complex {{ maplink}} in the infobox. A reply suggested removing the Germany map. Any thoughts on that? WP:VPT could be used to ask if other solutions might work. Johnuniq ( talk) 04:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia and official sources give the area as 891.7 square kilometers. What's going on here? 2A02:8109:B60F:B300:60E3:E2C4:BB5:E05A ( talk) 22:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)