Berber languages was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
|
I think that "THamazighth" should be mentioned as another translation for "Berber language" as in many regions no words start with "T". In addition, neither the terms "Berber" nor "Tamazighth" is used to describe the language people speak in many regions. Only the "dialect" name is used (as Thakbaylith in Kabilya and Thashawith for the Shawi Language in Aures Algeria) Josef.b
This would be a good place to furnish the pronunciation of "Tamazight". Kortoso ( talk) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The Arabic word must surely be from the Greek 'barbaros', generally agreed to be an onomatopoeic term indicating people who make unintelligible sounds. A discussion of the Greek term in antiquity may be found in Strabo Geography Bk 14,2,28 188.97.114.49 ( talk) 12:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
What is a sub-language? — Tamfang ( talk) 23:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
sub– was added on April 18 by 78.155.227.221 without explanation. I'll remove it. — Tamfang ( talk) 23:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Does Arabic really use the same word for both? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
In deference to the controversy over whether Berber is a WP:NPOV term, considering its connotations in being associated with "barbarian" as well as the emergence of a stronger Amazigh identity (especially during the Arab Spring, with the language now being official in Morocco and used by organs of the partially recognized National Transitional Council in Libya), I suggest this article be moved to either Tamazight or Amazigh languages (a WP:COMMON term used by Al Jazeera, Foreign Policy, Deutsche Welle, BBC News, and others). Support for this position comes from Noah Feldman, who notes that the "preferred term today is Amazigh" for the so-called Berber people, and comments I've seen here and elsewhere on Wikipedia seem to bear this out. So, I thought I would bring this name change (in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality) proposal up for discussion. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 20:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name in linguistics has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Paolorausch ( talk) 21:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The last edit, by User:Tachfin, removed the graphic showing the name "Tamazight" written in Roman and Neo-Tifinagh. That's fine, since the Neo-Tifinagh name is in the infobox... if the user has a font that supports it. The Tifinagh article has the appropriate flag --
-- but this article doesn't.
I don't know the policy for using such flags, but since the word ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ ("Tamazight") is the only Tifinagh text in the article, I don't feel that it's necessary and I'm not adding it. However, since users who haven't had any experience with Tamazight are not likely to have the IRCAM font (or any other that may support this script), I'm adding back the Tifinagh half of the graphic. -- Thnidu ( talk) 19:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Was Ali Baba from the Arabian Night a Berber? 86.176.190.64 ( talk) 00:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is the noun system described while the verbal one isn't? I think it is more interesting and informative from the viewpoint of comparative Afroasiatic linguistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.241.225 ( talk) 13:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Ethnic Berbers are considered to be the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries. What does the term ethnic berber mean? I suggest to replace this vague sentence by The bulk of the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries are considered to have Berber ancestors. Nahabedere ( talk) 09:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't see a difference between the first group (it consists in changing the initial vowel of the noun, and adding a suffix -n) and the third group (it combines a change of vowels with the suffix -n). Where's the difference between argaz → irgazen and azur → izuran? -- androl ( talk) 21:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
ISO now supports the incipient standard language. We have a stub needing expansion. — kwami ( talk) 18:44, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
As areas of Libya south and west of Tripoli such as the Nafusa Mountains were liberated from the control of forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi in early summer 2011, [...] Couldn't find a more neutral formulation? The idea is the fact that Gaddafi's control was over, we don't need any opinion here about whether people became liberated, since it's not the topic and is a sensitive political issue. - 92.100.181.160 ( talk) 17:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/NotesDeLexicographieBerbre
07:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/DeNomineEtGenerePopulorumQuiBerberiVulgoDicuntur
Rajmaan ( talk) 07:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. It has a new standard form, and other areas of Wikipedia have already adopted the endonym. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Anyone disagree? Paolorausch ( talk) 23:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Example, one ISO code uses Standard Moroccan Tamazight https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/zgh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paolorausch ( talk • contribs) 23:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for the pronunciation of the term "Tamazight" in English? Wiktionary currently gives a form with the last syllable as /zaɪt/ which seems implausible, as if it were a borrowing into Middle English. As a native English speaker though, I can't say it's cropped up enough in speech for me to have some sense of what the norm is, and it's entirely possible that my /zɪɣt/ or /zɪgd/ (depending on how much I'm anglicising) is a weird spelling pronunciation from lack of exposure to it in speech Tristanjlroberts ( talk) 20:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Berber was originally comes from roman word 'barbaros'. and it comes to other languages due to translating from roman works. but the translators maintained the word 'Berber'. But we as amazigh people. we don't want to be known as Berbers. or Berber speakers. because we are Imazighen whom speak Amazigh. It's a part of our identity to be known as Imazighen not berbers. So we need to look again in the term of 'Berber' in order to modify it as long as we "Imazighen" don't want to admit the term 'Berber'
Berbers = Imazighen / Amazigh people. Berber language = Tamazight / Amazigh language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipshel ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
I would like to point out that on 17:20, 7 November 2020, Phonology and Grammar was deleted for referring to a singular "Berber language" and not Berber Languages like the name of this article, and not citing any sources. I'm not complaining about that, I'm casting a raised eyebrow at the grammar being RE-written, translated from the German Wikipedia, and once again referring to a singular "Berber language" Jimydog000 ( talk) 10:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I'm preparing myself for a job in South America and have to learn next to spanish, several native languages. I have a friend from Béjaïa and when I started my lessons, he was very surprised to find very close similarities between this two languages. Not only the pronouns, a lot of other words too. I'm no linguist - is it possible, that such similarities can originate independent from each other? This words existed long before the invasion of the Spaniards and as long I found out, Spanish and Portugese had a countable impact of Arabic, but barely impact of Berber words. Best -- Jucos ( talk) 16:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Blueshiftofdeath: I had to revert your recent changes because: 1) the article is about the "Berber languages" (there are many of them). 2) Tamazight is an invented language that some countries have developed independently of one another. M.Bitton ( talk) 16:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
A cursory search also shows "Tamazight" and "Berber language"You're missing the point. Yes, Tamazight (a standardized version) is theoretically a Berber language that is official in Algeria and Morocco, but it doesn't change the fact that there are many Berber languages (notice the plural) that are spoken in the Maghreb (our primary topic). M.Bitton ( talk) 17:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The Berber languages, also known as the Amazigh languages or Tamazight ( /ˌæməˈziːk/ AM-ə-ZEEK; Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight; Neo-Tifinagh: ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ, Tuareg Tifinagh: ⵜⵎⵣⵗⵜ, pronounced [tæmæˈzɪɣt, θæmæˈzɪɣθ]), are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family.
@ Blueshiftofdeath: the section about the Arabization of the administration is still misleading as it concerns the written languages (Arabic and French). Also, the source "Obtaining Jurisdiction over States in Bankruptcy Proceedings after Seminole Tribe" doesn't seem to mention what is attributed to it and nor does Reem Bassiouney's book (chapter 5). M.Bitton ( talk) 17:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Right now, the sections on morphology/syntax take up more of the page than seems to be standard (looking at other language pages in better standing). Also, I think currently there's not enough information on how different Berber languages compare to each other re: the common morphological and syntactical features.
I'm currently thinking either of the following would be a good move:
1) Move the Morphology/Syntax sections into a new page ("Grammar of the Berber Languages" ?) and add even more tables to compare languages, or replace the current tables with new tables that include multiple languages (like the table following "In Kabyle and Tuareg, the perfect of verbs that express a quality is conjugated with suffixes: " in the page right now) (The "Berber" chapter in "The Afroasiatic languages (2012)" even already has charts for multiple languages for the same grammatical features!)
2) Move the individual examples/charts into the pages for each individual language, and then just reference the grammar pages for those languages on this page (like in Finnic languages#General characteristics) Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 14:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"The personal pronouns of Berber can be divided into two main groups: free forms and clitics, the latter being further classified according to their syntactic function. The following example forms are taken from Tahaggart, a dialect of Tuareg..."– The Tahaggart data is sourced, but which source tells us that this is a recurrent feature in Berber languages?
"In Kabyle and Tuareg, the perfect of verbs that express a quality is conjugated with suffixes..."– Is this meant to imply that this is a characteristic particular only to Kabyle and Tuareg? And if so, where is the source in support of it?
I noticed that in the subclassification section, no single subclassification system is given as the most prominent, and no consensus is given on what "Eastern Berber" refers to; but the infobox for the page gives the impression that there is a general consensus on a certain subclassification system, as displayed on the map, and "Eastern Berber" lists "Siwi, Nafusi, Sokna, Ghadamès, Awjila" as its languages with no qualification. Have there perhaps been developments in classifying Berber languages that is not reflected in the subclassification subsection, or does the infobox not reliably reflect the current citeable understanding of Berber languages? Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 03:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
@ M.Bitton I find your changes to the table for the population of speakers of Berber languages in Algeria misleading, as:
- The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics cites sources only from 1973-1997, with the population for Kabyle speakers likely coming from Chaker 1983, yet is listed as being from 2003, more than two decades later
- Language Diversity Endangered, listed as being from 2015, cites Ethnologue 2001
Given that the population of speakers is highly dependent on the time due to a number of factors, I think it's critical to include the actual original time of the estimate. (I realize I put 2022 instead of 2020 for Ethnologue in the table -- I plan to fix that, but wanted to clarify this issue before I bother making more changes.) Additionally, if the original source is available, I think we should include that and not later works that simply reproduce the same estimate, for clarity. (This is why I did not include Ethnologue 2015 in the Morocco population table; I just included a note in the 2004 Moroccan census row that this figure was also used by Ethnologue, since that's another source people very commonly reference.)
In any case, it seems silly to me to argue that the Ethnologue 2022 figure is "inconsistent" with the figure provided by Ethnologue 2001. Not to mention the Ethnologue 2022 figure is totally consistent with every single estimate I have seen across dozens of sources regarding what percent of the Algerian population speaks a Berber language. (Well, it lists the percentage as being lower now -- 20% rather than the 25-30% range I've seen elsewhere -- but I don't think it's at all controversial that the relative number of speakers of Berber languages is decreasing.)
I will try to obtain a copy of Ethnologue 2001, and the sources used in The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, so their estimates may also be included with dates. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 18:00, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Blueshiftofdeath and M.Bitton: Hello! I'm attempting to address the Wikipedia:Third opinion request. First, I have to say I'm not entirely certain of the breadth and specifics of the dispute here, even after examining diffs in addition to reading this discussion. So could I ask that you both characterize the entirety of the dispute as you see it, including the reasons in favor of both positions as you understand them, in a single paragraph each, please? I will say that if the dispute boils down to a disagreement over a number from different sources, I'm inclined to suggest including both values citing their supporting sources, smallest first. Δπ ( talk) 21:40, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Δπ ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
The "Estimated Number of Speakers of Berber Languages in Algeria" table includes the estimated number of speakers of Berber languages (both for individual languages, and in total across languages) from multiple sources, along with the date; should Language Diversity Endangered be included?
My objection to the inclusion of Language Diversity Endangered is that I believe it is misleading to include under that name and with its publication date of 2015. The date is important because the number of speakers will of course vary with time; the number of speakers is probably not going to be the same as decades pass.
Regarding its estimates of the number of speakers of Berber languages (also called Amazigh languages), Language Diversity Endangered says quote, "The 24 Amazigh languages listed in table 1 (see also Map 8) are an attempt to present an overview of the distinct Amazigh languages. Update information on the languages is mainly derived from the Ethnologue 2001 in its electronic version of December 2004 (Grimes ed. 2001)."
Additionally, the relevant numbers provided by Language Diversity Endangered are identical to those provided by Ethnologue 2001 (available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060502170527/http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Algeria), with the exception of the population of Kabyle speakers being listed as "2.5 - 3 million" in Language Diversity Endangered, whereas Ethnologue 2001 says of Kabyle: "2,537,000 or more in Algeria (1995), 8% of the population. Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). Population total all countries 3,074,000 or more."
I think it's safe to say that the numbers in Language Diversity Endangered are estimates from 2001, not from 2015. Additionally, including it as a separate row alongside Ethnologue 2001 is misleading, seeing as they're really the same estimate, not two separate estimates. I would like to include Language Diversity Endangered as a note in the Ethnologue 2001 row (noting that Language Diversity Engangered in 2015 cited the same estimates, with a smaller cap on the number of Kabyle speakers); for an example of how this would look, you can see the "Estimated Number of Speakers of Berber Languages in Morocco" table.
Basically, we have a table showing the estimates of the number of speakers of the various Berber languages in Algeria (each row consisting of the source, the publication year and the estimates). All the numbers are guestimates (numbers based on, derived or extrapolated from previously published numbers that are derived in the same manner). One of the sources has a table (page 133) that lists its numbers, not just in Algeria, but in all the Maghreb countries. The source in question also states on page 124 that "The 24 Amazigh languages listed in table 1 are an attempt to present an overview of the distinct Amazigh languages. Update information on the languages is mainly derived from the Ethnologue 2001 in its electronic version of December 2004".
The important thing to note here is that the source specifically uses "information" (which is vague) and "mainly" (meaning not all), leaving the readers with no way of knowing which information is theirs and which is Ethnolgue's. Any attempt at comparing their numbers to Ethnolgue's in the hope of drawing some conclusion would obviously be WP:OR. Furthermore, even if we allow ourselves to indulge in a bit of original research for the sake of argument, a quick comparison shows that for three of the languages, in Algeria alone, it lists different numbers (Kabyle, Temacine and Tidikelt), with the last two having a question mark instead of a number (as given by Ethnologue), essentially proving that the numbers have been revised/reviewed by the author and not simply blindly copied (therefore, making them the source's own).
Additionally, the 2015 numbers are also closer to what one would expect and to Ethnolgue's 2012 estimates, which are far less misleading than Ethnolgue's recent extraordinary claims that defy common sense and contradict a more reliable source that was published in 2021 (the only source that is written by a scholar with field experience in Algeria).
Ultimately, this is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR issue: since nobody's disputing the fact that the scholarly source is reliable (written by a linguist and published by De Gruyter), there is no reason to either exclude some of its numbers from the list, or worse, violate a wp policy by engaging in some original research, that is grounded on a baseless assumption, in order to attribute them to another source. M.Bitton ( talk) 18:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC) _____
If the tertiary LDE source is "mainly" from 2001, then IMO it's outdated. The numbers in Ethn. (2001) are actually dated 1987 to 1996, but for all we know may be older than that (since no source is provided; the dates may be publication dates rather than the dates of the population estimates), so IMO neither Ethn. 2001 nor LDE should be used on WP. For the three exceptional cases (Kabyle, Temacine and Tidikelt), summarizing the Kabyle data by turning the two Ethn. figures into a range does not "make it the source's own", and rejecting the other two only tells us that the author doesn't believe them, but then I would oppose using Ethn. 2001 figures anyway. I don't know the reason for Bitton's claim that Ethn's current numbers are "extraordinary", but granted Ethn. is not always a RS. Their numbers should all come with a reference; if they don't, then IMO they are essentially unsourced and Ethn. should not be treated as RS. If the "extraordinary" numbers do have citations, then IMO we should compare that source or sources against the "more reliable source that was published in 2021". That is, IMO we should have the 2021 source (assuming it's RS) either alone or, if the current Ethn figures are referenced to a RS, alongside the current Ethn figures. There's no need to go back to numbers from the last century unless we have reason to believe that current figures would be even less reliable. Given the generally poor quality of data on Berber languages, I doubt that data from ca. 1990 that haven't been adjusted for population growth or language attrition are going to be more reliable than recent data. — kwami ( talk) 08:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't have any better data. Last year I summarized the situation in some notes, and came up with the following:
Not advocating that, but that was my best effort at the time. I think percentages are generally a good idea when you're dealing with a significant fraction of the population, because absolute numbers get dated more quickly. That doesn't work for smaller languages, but often those aren't growing at the rate of the population as a whole anyway. — kwami ( talk) 01:13, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Speakers of Tachelhit, constituting roughly 8 million persons, are concentrated in the High Atlas and Anti-Atlas mountains and valleys and southeast pre-desert area. Speakers of Tamazight (the same term used to denote the Berber language as a whole), numbering 3 million persons, are centered in the Middle Atlas region. Speakers of Tarifit, also numbering approximately 3 million persons, live primarily in the Rif Mountains of the north. Berbers constitute roughly 20% of Algeria’s population of 39 million. Two-thirds of them (more than 5 million) are Kabyles, originating in the mountainous Kabylie region between Algiers and Constantine, whose dialect is Taqbaylit.
Berber languages are spoken today by some 14 million people, mostly in scattered enclaves found in the Maghrib, a large region of northern Africa between Egypt’s Siwa Oasis and Mauretania. The heaviest concentration of Berber speakers is found in Morocco.
On ne dispose pas de statistiques sûres pour évaluer le nombre des berbérophones : les estimations vont de treize à trente millions ; un total de vingt ou vingt-cinq millions paraît admissible
Maddy-Weitzman is a historian. Maybe he evaluated various sources and decided the JA numbers were the most reliable. Maybe he just grabbed it as a convenient source. Does he say either way? Perhaps JA is an independent estimate. More likely, it's based on something that's based on a pre-Leclerc edition of Ethn, which would explain the different ratios. No sources or methodology = not reliable. — kwami ( talk) 16:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
It seems pretty clear that we'll list1) that's not your decision to make. 2) the only thing that is clear is that you never had any intention of applying the very third opinion that you asked for (simply because it didn't go your way). M.Bitton ( talk) 00:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Les berbérophones dénombrés représentaient, par rapport aux 12 millions d' Algériens recensés en 1966, 19 % de la population totale du pays(p. 96), so 2.3 million self-declared Berberophones (p. 94, however 2,287,997/12,102,000 = 18.9% and not 18.7%...), including "trois quarts" of "Kabyles and Chaouïa" (p. 106) and 1.170.924 "Kabyles de l'Ouest",
représentant 51 % des berbérophones d'Algérie(p. 95). The author adds (footnote p. 94):
Compte-tenu des chiffres de 1966, de l'évolution de ses taux de croissance régionaux, on peut estimer que la population berbérophone compte en 1991 environ 4 900 000 personnes.
On le voit, la variation entre 1913 et 1966 est énorme : la population chaouia aurait diminué, en proportion, de plus de moitié en un demi siècle, ce qui est évidemment inconcevable et inacceptable, même si l'on doit tenir compte d'un important exode rural. Ou bien les chiffres du début du siècle sont très fortement surestimés – mais cela est peu probable car ils résultent d'une enquête spécifique, commune par commune –, ou bien les statistiques algériennes sous-évaluent gravement la berbérophonie aurasienne. Pour tout un ensemble de raisons (Cf Chaker 1984, p. 9), c'est certainement la seconde explication qu'il faut retenir en priorité.
D'autant que le bilinguisme berbère/arabe est très général dans cette région, même en milieu féminin, et que, jusqu'à ces toutes dernières années, la fierté linguistique berbère était un phénomène rare chez les Aurasiens (sur cette question, voir : Maougal 1981 et 1984). Bien au contraire, ils éprouvaient généralement un fort complexe d'infériorité linguistique devant les arabophones et évitaient d'utiliser leur langue en dehors de leur communauté. On en trouve du reste un indice numérique flagrant dans les résultats du recensement algérien de 1966 : pour la wilaya des Aurès, centrée sur le massif berbérophone, seules 44,5 % des habitants déclarent avoir le berbère comme langue maternelle, ce qui est nécessairement non conforme à la réalité ; même dans les communes rurales des Aurès, la majorité de la population déclare souvent avoir l'arabe comme langue maternelle ! Pour comparaison, dans la wilaya de Tizi-Ouzou, à la même date, 82 % des personnes indiquent le berbère comme langue maternelle...
En conclusion, on admettra que la population de dialecte chaouia se situe dans une fourchette, très large, allant de 850.000 à 1.900.000 personnes. Le million de locuteurs est donc très certainement atteint et dépassé.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 12:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
La variété kabyle du berbère est la langue maternelle et usuelle de l’immense majorité de la population de Kabylie : près de 85 % des habitants de l’ancien département de Tizi-Ouzou (« Grande Kabylie ») se déclare berbérophones natifs (recensement1 officiel algérien de 1966). Il convient à ce propos de souligner que les nombreux découpages et redécoupages administratifs de l’entité géolinguistique kabyle opérés par l’Etat algérien ont eu pour conséquence de fragmenter l’aire de la kabylophonie sur au moins cinq départements (wilayat). Tant et si bien que seules les départements de Tizi-Ouzou et de Bougie peuvent être considérés comme presque entièrement berbérophones ; les autres fragments de l’aire kabyle sont intégrés dans des unités administratives périphériques, dont la plus grande partie est arabophone (Sétif, Bouira, Boumerdes). Ce démembrement administratif de la Kabylie historique et culturelle ne facilite évidemment pas l’évaluation démographique de la berbérophonie dans la région. On peut néanmoins estimer, sur la base de la projection des chiffres connus, la population kabylophone à environ 5,5 millions de personnes, dont 3 à 3,5 millions vivent en Kabylie même et 2 à 2,5 million constituent la diaspora, dans les grandes villes d’Algérie (surtout Alger), mais aussi en France où vivent probablement près d’un million de Kabyles.and
Ce recensement, qui a été le seul depuis l’indépendance de l’Algérie à comporter une question sur la langue maternelle, donnait en chiffres arrondis : 850 000 habitants pour le département de Tizi-Ouzou (dont 85 % de berbérophones) et 1 300 000 pour celui de Sétif (qui incluait Bougie), dont 40 % de berbérophones, soit 500 000 berbérophones pour la Petite Kabyle. Un total donc de 1 300 000 berbérophones pour la Kabylie, sur une population globale de 12 379 000 ; auxquels il convient d’ajouter un bon million de personnes pour la diaspora, ce qui fait une population kabylophone totale de 2 à 2,3 millions en 1966.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I have always given rough estimates, to give an idea, but never intended to work out the exact number of speakers. 3 million in Kabylie is probably lower range estimate. There is no census on Amazigh speakers in Algeria as you know, and from my personal experience there, Kabyle is a growing, expanding language, it has prestige among Amazigh speakers and is adopted by speakers of nearby regions. I would not be able to give a reliable estimate though.
I haven't had a chance to read Bara (2020), but it looks promising. — kwami ( talk) 01:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Encyclopædia Universalis, the French-language Britannica writes: On ne dispose pas de statistiques sûres pour évaluer le nombre des berbérophones : les estimations vont de treize à trente millions ; un total de vingt ou vingt-cinq millions paraît admissible
(
Berbères : la langue. Authors are:
Salem Chaker,
Lionel Galand , and
Paulette Galand-Pernet. All academics, linguists, experts in the field.
I added this range to the infobox, I don't understand why you reverted @ M.Bitton claiming " Please have some respect for those who are discussing the subject". Indeed, this range of 13–30 is also close to what is already in the rest of the article as the lowest recent estimates we currently have are 7.5m in Morocco, 4.5m in Algeria, and ~1m elsewhere (total = 13m) while the highest estimates we have are 13.8m in Morocco, 8.8m in Algeria, and 3.6m elsewhere (total = 26m). So it's a good summary of the sources we list, and it's backed by a RS. The note "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested." seems also useful to explain why there's such a huge range.
What should we do? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 16:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
@ A455bcd9: This revert of yours makes no sense. Either that's the original Algerian census (properly sourced to CERIST) or it's not. Adding some poxy French source to it in order to cast doubt on its certainty is an insult to people's intelligence. M.Bitton ( talk) 18:20, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Sondage 10 %), p. 420 (
Puis un sondage aléatoire consistant de 10 % est prélevé toujours selon des méthodes probabilistes. L'échantillon traité est la pièce maîtresse de l'exploitation du recensement, puisqu'il permet, à un coût intéressant, de connaître les principales caractéristiques de la population avec une erreur ne dépassant pas 5 % pour une population d'environ 20.000 individus possédant une caractéristique dans un département faiblement peuplé. Il est évident que la précision s'améliore lorsque la population augmente. L'aboutissement du traitement de l'échantillon 10 % se résume en trois volumes, en voie de publication. Le premier volume traite de démographie générale et d'instruction ; le second est relatif aux caractéristiques d'emploi, le troisième se présente avec deux volets, l'un pour l'étude des enfants de moins d'un an, l'autre pour les logements et constructions.) and p. 421 (
7-3 Le dépouillement exhaustif : Il est prévu, département, par département, de donner au niveau des communes et des arrondisements quelques tableaux issus du traitement exhaustif de toutes les cartes. Le sondage 10 % présenté au 7-2 ne permet pas de descendre au-dessous du département, sans nuire à la précision des résultats.)
L'exploitation du recensement n'est pas encore terminée.
Figures differ between these two sources, so per MOS:UNCERTAINTY better to keep the closest integermakes even less sense given that you replaced the source that I added previously with a French one (that's the insult). I will therefore restore it (until we find the official one). M.Bitton ( talk) 13:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Le dépouillement exhaustif : Il est prévu, département, par département, de donner au niveau des communes et des arrondisements quelques tableaux issus du traitement exhaustif de toutes les cartes.).
The 2022 census was conducted from Sept 25th to Oct 9th and its results should be published soon ( other source). The census contained a question "Quelle est la langue lue et écrite ? 0-Aucune 1-Arabe 2-Amazigh 3-Français 4-Anglais 5-Autres". We'll have data on Algerian people able to both read and write Amazigh. Too bad they didn't include a question about spoken language(s) as well. a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 11:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why but I'm having some kind of issue moving the videos of people speaking Tashelhiyt / Central Atlas Tamazight in visual mode... someone else might want to tweak their placement. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 11:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The source he uses only documents usage in Kabylia, I replaced his source with more generalist ones, but he keeps reverting it. Taluzet ( talk) 11:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
The person in this video speak a mixt of Berber and Moroccan Arabic with high % of Moroccan Arabic vs Berber words. Please consider to replace with a better representation with a fully 100% Berber speaking talk 105.152.164.210 ( talk) 22:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
The common ancestor of Berber languages (and genetics) lived just 2000 years ago. So, all languages that existed earlier cannot be called "Berber", they're "para-Berber" at most, in cases in which they actually are. It's a shame that Wikipedia doesnt have an article on Ancient Libyan language, which is obviously a very ancient language and played an important part in history. -- 95.24.66.180 ( talk) 16:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Berber languages was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
|
I think that "THamazighth" should be mentioned as another translation for "Berber language" as in many regions no words start with "T". In addition, neither the terms "Berber" nor "Tamazighth" is used to describe the language people speak in many regions. Only the "dialect" name is used (as Thakbaylith in Kabilya and Thashawith for the Shawi Language in Aures Algeria) Josef.b
This would be a good place to furnish the pronunciation of "Tamazight". Kortoso ( talk) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The Arabic word must surely be from the Greek 'barbaros', generally agreed to be an onomatopoeic term indicating people who make unintelligible sounds. A discussion of the Greek term in antiquity may be found in Strabo Geography Bk 14,2,28 188.97.114.49 ( talk) 12:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
What is a sub-language? — Tamfang ( talk) 23:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
sub– was added on April 18 by 78.155.227.221 without explanation. I'll remove it. — Tamfang ( talk) 23:23, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Does Arabic really use the same word for both? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
In deference to the controversy over whether Berber is a WP:NPOV term, considering its connotations in being associated with "barbarian" as well as the emergence of a stronger Amazigh identity (especially during the Arab Spring, with the language now being official in Morocco and used by organs of the partially recognized National Transitional Council in Libya), I suggest this article be moved to either Tamazight or Amazigh languages (a WP:COMMON term used by Al Jazeera, Foreign Policy, Deutsche Welle, BBC News, and others). Support for this position comes from Noah Feldman, who notes that the "preferred term today is Amazigh" for the so-called Berber people, and comments I've seen here and elsewhere on Wikipedia seem to bear this out. So, I thought I would bring this name change (in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality) proposal up for discussion. - Kudzu1 ( talk) 20:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name in linguistics has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Paolorausch ( talk) 21:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The last edit, by User:Tachfin, removed the graphic showing the name "Tamazight" written in Roman and Neo-Tifinagh. That's fine, since the Neo-Tifinagh name is in the infobox... if the user has a font that supports it. The Tifinagh article has the appropriate flag --
-- but this article doesn't.
I don't know the policy for using such flags, but since the word ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ ("Tamazight") is the only Tifinagh text in the article, I don't feel that it's necessary and I'm not adding it. However, since users who haven't had any experience with Tamazight are not likely to have the IRCAM font (or any other that may support this script), I'm adding back the Tifinagh half of the graphic. -- Thnidu ( talk) 19:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Was Ali Baba from the Arabian Night a Berber? 86.176.190.64 ( talk) 00:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Why is the noun system described while the verbal one isn't? I think it is more interesting and informative from the viewpoint of comparative Afroasiatic linguistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.191.241.225 ( talk) 13:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Ethnic Berbers are considered to be the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries. What does the term ethnic berber mean? I suggest to replace this vague sentence by The bulk of the bulk of the populations of the Maghreb countries are considered to have Berber ancestors. Nahabedere ( talk) 09:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I can't see a difference between the first group (it consists in changing the initial vowel of the noun, and adding a suffix -n) and the third group (it combines a change of vowels with the suffix -n). Where's the difference between argaz → irgazen and azur → izuran? -- androl ( talk) 21:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
ISO now supports the incipient standard language. We have a stub needing expansion. — kwami ( talk) 18:44, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
As areas of Libya south and west of Tripoli such as the Nafusa Mountains were liberated from the control of forces loyal to Colonel Gaddafi in early summer 2011, [...] Couldn't find a more neutral formulation? The idea is the fact that Gaddafi's control was over, we don't need any opinion here about whether people became liberated, since it's not the topic and is a sensitive political issue. - 92.100.181.160 ( talk) 17:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/NotesDeLexicographieBerbre
07:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
https://archive.org/details/DeNomineEtGenerePopulorumQuiBerberiVulgoDicuntur
Rajmaan ( talk) 07:53, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. It has a new standard form, and other areas of Wikipedia have already adopted the endonym. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Anyone disagree? Paolorausch ( talk) 23:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Example, one ISO code uses Standard Moroccan Tamazight https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/zgh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paolorausch ( talk • contribs) 23:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for the pronunciation of the term "Tamazight" in English? Wiktionary currently gives a form with the last syllable as /zaɪt/ which seems implausible, as if it were a borrowing into Middle English. As a native English speaker though, I can't say it's cropped up enough in speech for me to have some sense of what the norm is, and it's entirely possible that my /zɪɣt/ or /zɪgd/ (depending on how much I'm anglicising) is a weird spelling pronunciation from lack of exposure to it in speech Tristanjlroberts ( talk) 20:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Berber was originally comes from roman word 'barbaros'. and it comes to other languages due to translating from roman works. but the translators maintained the word 'Berber'. But we as amazigh people. we don't want to be known as Berbers. or Berber speakers. because we are Imazighen whom speak Amazigh. It's a part of our identity to be known as Imazighen not berbers. So we need to look again in the term of 'Berber' in order to modify it as long as we "Imazighen" don't want to admit the term 'Berber'
Berbers = Imazighen / Amazigh people. Berber language = Tamazight / Amazigh language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipshel ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
I would like to point out that on 17:20, 7 November 2020, Phonology and Grammar was deleted for referring to a singular "Berber language" and not Berber Languages like the name of this article, and not citing any sources. I'm not complaining about that, I'm casting a raised eyebrow at the grammar being RE-written, translated from the German Wikipedia, and once again referring to a singular "Berber language" Jimydog000 ( talk) 10:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi, I'm preparing myself for a job in South America and have to learn next to spanish, several native languages. I have a friend from Béjaïa and when I started my lessons, he was very surprised to find very close similarities between this two languages. Not only the pronouns, a lot of other words too. I'm no linguist - is it possible, that such similarities can originate independent from each other? This words existed long before the invasion of the Spaniards and as long I found out, Spanish and Portugese had a countable impact of Arabic, but barely impact of Berber words. Best -- Jucos ( talk) 16:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Blueshiftofdeath: I had to revert your recent changes because: 1) the article is about the "Berber languages" (there are many of them). 2) Tamazight is an invented language that some countries have developed independently of one another. M.Bitton ( talk) 16:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
A cursory search also shows "Tamazight" and "Berber language"You're missing the point. Yes, Tamazight (a standardized version) is theoretically a Berber language that is official in Algeria and Morocco, but it doesn't change the fact that there are many Berber languages (notice the plural) that are spoken in the Maghreb (our primary topic). M.Bitton ( talk) 17:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
The Berber languages, also known as the Amazigh languages or Tamazight ( /ˌæməˈziːk/ AM-ə-ZEEK; Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight; Neo-Tifinagh: ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ, Tuareg Tifinagh: ⵜⵎⵣⵗⵜ, pronounced [tæmæˈzɪɣt, θæmæˈzɪɣθ]), are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family.
@ Blueshiftofdeath: the section about the Arabization of the administration is still misleading as it concerns the written languages (Arabic and French). Also, the source "Obtaining Jurisdiction over States in Bankruptcy Proceedings after Seminole Tribe" doesn't seem to mention what is attributed to it and nor does Reem Bassiouney's book (chapter 5). M.Bitton ( talk) 17:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Right now, the sections on morphology/syntax take up more of the page than seems to be standard (looking at other language pages in better standing). Also, I think currently there's not enough information on how different Berber languages compare to each other re: the common morphological and syntactical features.
I'm currently thinking either of the following would be a good move:
1) Move the Morphology/Syntax sections into a new page ("Grammar of the Berber Languages" ?) and add even more tables to compare languages, or replace the current tables with new tables that include multiple languages (like the table following "In Kabyle and Tuareg, the perfect of verbs that express a quality is conjugated with suffixes: " in the page right now) (The "Berber" chapter in "The Afroasiatic languages (2012)" even already has charts for multiple languages for the same grammatical features!)
2) Move the individual examples/charts into the pages for each individual language, and then just reference the grammar pages for those languages on this page (like in Finnic languages#General characteristics) Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 14:36, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"The personal pronouns of Berber can be divided into two main groups: free forms and clitics, the latter being further classified according to their syntactic function. The following example forms are taken from Tahaggart, a dialect of Tuareg..."– The Tahaggart data is sourced, but which source tells us that this is a recurrent feature in Berber languages?
"In Kabyle and Tuareg, the perfect of verbs that express a quality is conjugated with suffixes..."– Is this meant to imply that this is a characteristic particular only to Kabyle and Tuareg? And if so, where is the source in support of it?
I noticed that in the subclassification section, no single subclassification system is given as the most prominent, and no consensus is given on what "Eastern Berber" refers to; but the infobox for the page gives the impression that there is a general consensus on a certain subclassification system, as displayed on the map, and "Eastern Berber" lists "Siwi, Nafusi, Sokna, Ghadamès, Awjila" as its languages with no qualification. Have there perhaps been developments in classifying Berber languages that is not reflected in the subclassification subsection, or does the infobox not reliably reflect the current citeable understanding of Berber languages? Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 03:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
@ M.Bitton I find your changes to the table for the population of speakers of Berber languages in Algeria misleading, as:
- The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics cites sources only from 1973-1997, with the population for Kabyle speakers likely coming from Chaker 1983, yet is listed as being from 2003, more than two decades later
- Language Diversity Endangered, listed as being from 2015, cites Ethnologue 2001
Given that the population of speakers is highly dependent on the time due to a number of factors, I think it's critical to include the actual original time of the estimate. (I realize I put 2022 instead of 2020 for Ethnologue in the table -- I plan to fix that, but wanted to clarify this issue before I bother making more changes.) Additionally, if the original source is available, I think we should include that and not later works that simply reproduce the same estimate, for clarity. (This is why I did not include Ethnologue 2015 in the Morocco population table; I just included a note in the 2004 Moroccan census row that this figure was also used by Ethnologue, since that's another source people very commonly reference.)
In any case, it seems silly to me to argue that the Ethnologue 2022 figure is "inconsistent" with the figure provided by Ethnologue 2001. Not to mention the Ethnologue 2022 figure is totally consistent with every single estimate I have seen across dozens of sources regarding what percent of the Algerian population speaks a Berber language. (Well, it lists the percentage as being lower now -- 20% rather than the 25-30% range I've seen elsewhere -- but I don't think it's at all controversial that the relative number of speakers of Berber languages is decreasing.)
I will try to obtain a copy of Ethnologue 2001, and the sources used in The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics, so their estimates may also be included with dates. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 18:00, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Blueshiftofdeath and M.Bitton: Hello! I'm attempting to address the Wikipedia:Third opinion request. First, I have to say I'm not entirely certain of the breadth and specifics of the dispute here, even after examining diffs in addition to reading this discussion. So could I ask that you both characterize the entirety of the dispute as you see it, including the reasons in favor of both positions as you understand them, in a single paragraph each, please? I will say that if the dispute boils down to a disagreement over a number from different sources, I'm inclined to suggest including both values citing their supporting sources, smallest first. Δπ ( talk) 21:40, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Δπ ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
The "Estimated Number of Speakers of Berber Languages in Algeria" table includes the estimated number of speakers of Berber languages (both for individual languages, and in total across languages) from multiple sources, along with the date; should Language Diversity Endangered be included?
My objection to the inclusion of Language Diversity Endangered is that I believe it is misleading to include under that name and with its publication date of 2015. The date is important because the number of speakers will of course vary with time; the number of speakers is probably not going to be the same as decades pass.
Regarding its estimates of the number of speakers of Berber languages (also called Amazigh languages), Language Diversity Endangered says quote, "The 24 Amazigh languages listed in table 1 (see also Map 8) are an attempt to present an overview of the distinct Amazigh languages. Update information on the languages is mainly derived from the Ethnologue 2001 in its electronic version of December 2004 (Grimes ed. 2001)."
Additionally, the relevant numbers provided by Language Diversity Endangered are identical to those provided by Ethnologue 2001 (available here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060502170527/http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Algeria), with the exception of the population of Kabyle speakers being listed as "2.5 - 3 million" in Language Diversity Endangered, whereas Ethnologue 2001 says of Kabyle: "2,537,000 or more in Algeria (1995), 8% of the population. Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). Population total all countries 3,074,000 or more."
I think it's safe to say that the numbers in Language Diversity Endangered are estimates from 2001, not from 2015. Additionally, including it as a separate row alongside Ethnologue 2001 is misleading, seeing as they're really the same estimate, not two separate estimates. I would like to include Language Diversity Endangered as a note in the Ethnologue 2001 row (noting that Language Diversity Engangered in 2015 cited the same estimates, with a smaller cap on the number of Kabyle speakers); for an example of how this would look, you can see the "Estimated Number of Speakers of Berber Languages in Morocco" table.
Basically, we have a table showing the estimates of the number of speakers of the various Berber languages in Algeria (each row consisting of the source, the publication year and the estimates). All the numbers are guestimates (numbers based on, derived or extrapolated from previously published numbers that are derived in the same manner). One of the sources has a table (page 133) that lists its numbers, not just in Algeria, but in all the Maghreb countries. The source in question also states on page 124 that "The 24 Amazigh languages listed in table 1 are an attempt to present an overview of the distinct Amazigh languages. Update information on the languages is mainly derived from the Ethnologue 2001 in its electronic version of December 2004".
The important thing to note here is that the source specifically uses "information" (which is vague) and "mainly" (meaning not all), leaving the readers with no way of knowing which information is theirs and which is Ethnolgue's. Any attempt at comparing their numbers to Ethnolgue's in the hope of drawing some conclusion would obviously be WP:OR. Furthermore, even if we allow ourselves to indulge in a bit of original research for the sake of argument, a quick comparison shows that for three of the languages, in Algeria alone, it lists different numbers (Kabyle, Temacine and Tidikelt), with the last two having a question mark instead of a number (as given by Ethnologue), essentially proving that the numbers have been revised/reviewed by the author and not simply blindly copied (therefore, making them the source's own).
Additionally, the 2015 numbers are also closer to what one would expect and to Ethnolgue's 2012 estimates, which are far less misleading than Ethnolgue's recent extraordinary claims that defy common sense and contradict a more reliable source that was published in 2021 (the only source that is written by a scholar with field experience in Algeria).
Ultimately, this is a WP:NPOV and WP:OR issue: since nobody's disputing the fact that the scholarly source is reliable (written by a linguist and published by De Gruyter), there is no reason to either exclude some of its numbers from the list, or worse, violate a wp policy by engaging in some original research, that is grounded on a baseless assumption, in order to attribute them to another source. M.Bitton ( talk) 18:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC) _____
If the tertiary LDE source is "mainly" from 2001, then IMO it's outdated. The numbers in Ethn. (2001) are actually dated 1987 to 1996, but for all we know may be older than that (since no source is provided; the dates may be publication dates rather than the dates of the population estimates), so IMO neither Ethn. 2001 nor LDE should be used on WP. For the three exceptional cases (Kabyle, Temacine and Tidikelt), summarizing the Kabyle data by turning the two Ethn. figures into a range does not "make it the source's own", and rejecting the other two only tells us that the author doesn't believe them, but then I would oppose using Ethn. 2001 figures anyway. I don't know the reason for Bitton's claim that Ethn's current numbers are "extraordinary", but granted Ethn. is not always a RS. Their numbers should all come with a reference; if they don't, then IMO they are essentially unsourced and Ethn. should not be treated as RS. If the "extraordinary" numbers do have citations, then IMO we should compare that source or sources against the "more reliable source that was published in 2021". That is, IMO we should have the 2021 source (assuming it's RS) either alone or, if the current Ethn figures are referenced to a RS, alongside the current Ethn figures. There's no need to go back to numbers from the last century unless we have reason to believe that current figures would be even less reliable. Given the generally poor quality of data on Berber languages, I doubt that data from ca. 1990 that haven't been adjusted for population growth or language attrition are going to be more reliable than recent data. — kwami ( talk) 08:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
I don't have any better data. Last year I summarized the situation in some notes, and came up with the following:
Not advocating that, but that was my best effort at the time. I think percentages are generally a good idea when you're dealing with a significant fraction of the population, because absolute numbers get dated more quickly. That doesn't work for smaller languages, but often those aren't growing at the rate of the population as a whole anyway. — kwami ( talk) 01:13, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Speakers of Tachelhit, constituting roughly 8 million persons, are concentrated in the High Atlas and Anti-Atlas mountains and valleys and southeast pre-desert area. Speakers of Tamazight (the same term used to denote the Berber language as a whole), numbering 3 million persons, are centered in the Middle Atlas region. Speakers of Tarifit, also numbering approximately 3 million persons, live primarily in the Rif Mountains of the north. Berbers constitute roughly 20% of Algeria’s population of 39 million. Two-thirds of them (more than 5 million) are Kabyles, originating in the mountainous Kabylie region between Algiers and Constantine, whose dialect is Taqbaylit.
Berber languages are spoken today by some 14 million people, mostly in scattered enclaves found in the Maghrib, a large region of northern Africa between Egypt’s Siwa Oasis and Mauretania. The heaviest concentration of Berber speakers is found in Morocco.
On ne dispose pas de statistiques sûres pour évaluer le nombre des berbérophones : les estimations vont de treize à trente millions ; un total de vingt ou vingt-cinq millions paraît admissible
Maddy-Weitzman is a historian. Maybe he evaluated various sources and decided the JA numbers were the most reliable. Maybe he just grabbed it as a convenient source. Does he say either way? Perhaps JA is an independent estimate. More likely, it's based on something that's based on a pre-Leclerc edition of Ethn, which would explain the different ratios. No sources or methodology = not reliable. — kwami ( talk) 16:26, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
It seems pretty clear that we'll list1) that's not your decision to make. 2) the only thing that is clear is that you never had any intention of applying the very third opinion that you asked for (simply because it didn't go your way). M.Bitton ( talk) 00:13, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Les berbérophones dénombrés représentaient, par rapport aux 12 millions d' Algériens recensés en 1966, 19 % de la population totale du pays(p. 96), so 2.3 million self-declared Berberophones (p. 94, however 2,287,997/12,102,000 = 18.9% and not 18.7%...), including "trois quarts" of "Kabyles and Chaouïa" (p. 106) and 1.170.924 "Kabyles de l'Ouest",
représentant 51 % des berbérophones d'Algérie(p. 95). The author adds (footnote p. 94):
Compte-tenu des chiffres de 1966, de l'évolution de ses taux de croissance régionaux, on peut estimer que la population berbérophone compte en 1991 environ 4 900 000 personnes.
On le voit, la variation entre 1913 et 1966 est énorme : la population chaouia aurait diminué, en proportion, de plus de moitié en un demi siècle, ce qui est évidemment inconcevable et inacceptable, même si l'on doit tenir compte d'un important exode rural. Ou bien les chiffres du début du siècle sont très fortement surestimés – mais cela est peu probable car ils résultent d'une enquête spécifique, commune par commune –, ou bien les statistiques algériennes sous-évaluent gravement la berbérophonie aurasienne. Pour tout un ensemble de raisons (Cf Chaker 1984, p. 9), c'est certainement la seconde explication qu'il faut retenir en priorité.
D'autant que le bilinguisme berbère/arabe est très général dans cette région, même en milieu féminin, et que, jusqu'à ces toutes dernières années, la fierté linguistique berbère était un phénomène rare chez les Aurasiens (sur cette question, voir : Maougal 1981 et 1984). Bien au contraire, ils éprouvaient généralement un fort complexe d'infériorité linguistique devant les arabophones et évitaient d'utiliser leur langue en dehors de leur communauté. On en trouve du reste un indice numérique flagrant dans les résultats du recensement algérien de 1966 : pour la wilaya des Aurès, centrée sur le massif berbérophone, seules 44,5 % des habitants déclarent avoir le berbère comme langue maternelle, ce qui est nécessairement non conforme à la réalité ; même dans les communes rurales des Aurès, la majorité de la population déclare souvent avoir l'arabe comme langue maternelle ! Pour comparaison, dans la wilaya de Tizi-Ouzou, à la même date, 82 % des personnes indiquent le berbère comme langue maternelle...
En conclusion, on admettra que la population de dialecte chaouia se situe dans une fourchette, très large, allant de 850.000 à 1.900.000 personnes. Le million de locuteurs est donc très certainement atteint et dépassé.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 12:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
La variété kabyle du berbère est la langue maternelle et usuelle de l’immense majorité de la population de Kabylie : près de 85 % des habitants de l’ancien département de Tizi-Ouzou (« Grande Kabylie ») se déclare berbérophones natifs (recensement1 officiel algérien de 1966). Il convient à ce propos de souligner que les nombreux découpages et redécoupages administratifs de l’entité géolinguistique kabyle opérés par l’Etat algérien ont eu pour conséquence de fragmenter l’aire de la kabylophonie sur au moins cinq départements (wilayat). Tant et si bien que seules les départements de Tizi-Ouzou et de Bougie peuvent être considérés comme presque entièrement berbérophones ; les autres fragments de l’aire kabyle sont intégrés dans des unités administratives périphériques, dont la plus grande partie est arabophone (Sétif, Bouira, Boumerdes). Ce démembrement administratif de la Kabylie historique et culturelle ne facilite évidemment pas l’évaluation démographique de la berbérophonie dans la région. On peut néanmoins estimer, sur la base de la projection des chiffres connus, la population kabylophone à environ 5,5 millions de personnes, dont 3 à 3,5 millions vivent en Kabylie même et 2 à 2,5 million constituent la diaspora, dans les grandes villes d’Algérie (surtout Alger), mais aussi en France où vivent probablement près d’un million de Kabyles.and
Ce recensement, qui a été le seul depuis l’indépendance de l’Algérie à comporter une question sur la langue maternelle, donnait en chiffres arrondis : 850 000 habitants pour le département de Tizi-Ouzou (dont 85 % de berbérophones) et 1 300 000 pour celui de Sétif (qui incluait Bougie), dont 40 % de berbérophones, soit 500 000 berbérophones pour la Petite Kabyle. Un total donc de 1 300 000 berbérophones pour la Kabylie, sur une population globale de 12 379 000 ; auxquels il convient d’ajouter un bon million de personnes pour la diaspora, ce qui fait une population kabylophone totale de 2 à 2,3 millions en 1966.a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 13:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I have always given rough estimates, to give an idea, but never intended to work out the exact number of speakers. 3 million in Kabylie is probably lower range estimate. There is no census on Amazigh speakers in Algeria as you know, and from my personal experience there, Kabyle is a growing, expanding language, it has prestige among Amazigh speakers and is adopted by speakers of nearby regions. I would not be able to give a reliable estimate though.
I haven't had a chance to read Bara (2020), but it looks promising. — kwami ( talk) 01:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
Encyclopædia Universalis, the French-language Britannica writes: On ne dispose pas de statistiques sûres pour évaluer le nombre des berbérophones : les estimations vont de treize à trente millions ; un total de vingt ou vingt-cinq millions paraît admissible
(
Berbères : la langue. Authors are:
Salem Chaker,
Lionel Galand , and
Paulette Galand-Pernet. All academics, linguists, experts in the field.
I added this range to the infobox, I don't understand why you reverted @ M.Bitton claiming " Please have some respect for those who are discussing the subject". Indeed, this range of 13–30 is also close to what is already in the rest of the article as the lowest recent estimates we currently have are 7.5m in Morocco, 4.5m in Algeria, and ~1m elsewhere (total = 13m) while the highest estimates we have are 13.8m in Morocco, 8.8m in Algeria, and 3.6m elsewhere (total = 26m). So it's a good summary of the sources we list, and it's backed by a RS. The note "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested." seems also useful to explain why there's such a huge range.
What should we do? a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 16:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
@ A455bcd9: This revert of yours makes no sense. Either that's the original Algerian census (properly sourced to CERIST) or it's not. Adding some poxy French source to it in order to cast doubt on its certainty is an insult to people's intelligence. M.Bitton ( talk) 18:20, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Sondage 10 %), p. 420 (
Puis un sondage aléatoire consistant de 10 % est prélevé toujours selon des méthodes probabilistes. L'échantillon traité est la pièce maîtresse de l'exploitation du recensement, puisqu'il permet, à un coût intéressant, de connaître les principales caractéristiques de la population avec une erreur ne dépassant pas 5 % pour une population d'environ 20.000 individus possédant une caractéristique dans un département faiblement peuplé. Il est évident que la précision s'améliore lorsque la population augmente. L'aboutissement du traitement de l'échantillon 10 % se résume en trois volumes, en voie de publication. Le premier volume traite de démographie générale et d'instruction ; le second est relatif aux caractéristiques d'emploi, le troisième se présente avec deux volets, l'un pour l'étude des enfants de moins d'un an, l'autre pour les logements et constructions.) and p. 421 (
7-3 Le dépouillement exhaustif : Il est prévu, département, par département, de donner au niveau des communes et des arrondisements quelques tableaux issus du traitement exhaustif de toutes les cartes. Le sondage 10 % présenté au 7-2 ne permet pas de descendre au-dessous du département, sans nuire à la précision des résultats.)
L'exploitation du recensement n'est pas encore terminée.
Figures differ between these two sources, so per MOS:UNCERTAINTY better to keep the closest integermakes even less sense given that you replaced the source that I added previously with a French one (that's the insult). I will therefore restore it (until we find the official one). M.Bitton ( talk) 13:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Le dépouillement exhaustif : Il est prévu, département, par département, de donner au niveau des communes et des arrondisements quelques tableaux issus du traitement exhaustif de toutes les cartes.).
The 2022 census was conducted from Sept 25th to Oct 9th and its results should be published soon ( other source). The census contained a question "Quelle est la langue lue et écrite ? 0-Aucune 1-Arabe 2-Amazigh 3-Français 4-Anglais 5-Autres". We'll have data on Algerian people able to both read and write Amazigh. Too bad they didn't include a question about spoken language(s) as well. a455bcd9 (Antoine) ( talk) 11:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why but I'm having some kind of issue moving the videos of people speaking Tashelhiyt / Central Atlas Tamazight in visual mode... someone else might want to tweak their placement. Blueshiftofdeath ( talk) 11:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The source he uses only documents usage in Kabylia, I replaced his source with more generalist ones, but he keeps reverting it. Taluzet ( talk) 11:37, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
The person in this video speak a mixt of Berber and Moroccan Arabic with high % of Moroccan Arabic vs Berber words. Please consider to replace with a better representation with a fully 100% Berber speaking talk 105.152.164.210 ( talk) 22:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
The common ancestor of Berber languages (and genetics) lived just 2000 years ago. So, all languages that existed earlier cannot be called "Berber", they're "para-Berber" at most, in cases in which they actually are. It's a shame that Wikipedia doesnt have an article on Ancient Libyan language, which is obviously a very ancient language and played an important part in history. -- 95.24.66.180 ( talk) 16:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)