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The writing in this is very unclear, as are the sources. The article is about Dunkelman, not the Arab-Israeli conflict, so please stick directly to his biographical details. It's also not clear why the reference to Kidron is included, or what the large block quote comes from or has to do with Dunkelman. Clarification and correct citations would be appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't find any reference to this on Amazon. Can you give a full citation, please? Also, why would the blockquote section be in his book and not Dunkelman's? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The Library of Congress catalog (an ideal place to look for such information) gives 1976 as the publication year of Dunkelman's book. A similar quotation of Dunkelman regarding Nazareth is repeated by Simcha Flapan in J. Palestine Studies Vol. 16, No. 4. (Summer, 1987), pp. 3-26 which cites an interview of Dunkelman published in Haolam Hazeh in 1980. All the essential facts of the event: the surrender document, Laskov's role, the orders for expulsion, Dunkelman's refusal, the withdrawal of the order, Dunkelman's transfer, are documented on page 419 of Morris, Birth..Revisited and associated endnotes. The version of Morris does not appear to have any disagreement on fact from the version of Dunkelman as reported by either Kidron or Flapan. The story of Nazareth should be on Nazareth in detail, but a summary belongs here since this is the issue over which Dunkelman is most known today. One last comment: of course we cite book chapters. -- Zero talk 13:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, I noticed some phrases in the version I reverted that seemed to be lifted directly from some websites e.g. "deeply attached to his Jewish roots." Please do not lift material from the Web without quoting or attributing it. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"Born in Toronto on June 26, 1913; died of cancer in Toronto, June 11, 1997, aged 83." - The Globe and Mail, 8 July 1997.
"He was awarded the Distinguised Service Order for bravery under fire during the war and was called "the savior of western Galilee" by David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister." - Toronto Star, 12 June 1997 -- Zero talk 14:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have a question to you all (seriously): I am copying the most "vital" information from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live,( p. 85-97 in Blaming the Victims) on to User:Huldra/Newstuff. This file is a "sand-box" for me, if you like. But copying too much there would definitely be a copy-right violation. So, how much is "fair use"? (More than three words, I hope.) Can anybody give me some advise? Regards, Huldra 03:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have added some material into my " sandbox", about the relationship between Dunkelman and Kidron (according to Kidron). I´ll add some more (on why it did not get into the "Dual Life" book) -but I´m sure I´m violating the copyright here if I add too much? Perhaps I have violated it already? Anyway, I don´t think the book is difficult (or expensive) to get hold of: just checked abebooks: 50++ copies for sale, from $6.5 upwards. Huldra 05:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have now added what I intend to add from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live, see User:Huldra/Newstuff. The text is word for word from Kidron, except where I have added [..]. I fear I have broken a zillion copyright laws. If so: please delete it. Huldra 06:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I searched a newspaper archive that covers a lot of newspapers (but the coverage around 1980 is not very thick). I also searched some full-text journal archives that cover hundreds of journals. I found nothing that adds any information to this story, and in fact I found hardly anything at all. Certainly no reply from Dunkelman. I don't find this too surprising because the story is not all that newsworthy. The 1948 war produced lots of stories like this, and Dunkelman is not famous enough for his fame to make the story bigger. As for Haolam Hazeh, Flapan's citation is "Peretz Kidron interview with Ben Dunkelman, Haolam Hazeh, 9 January 1980", but the only thing he quotes from it is the same text as quoted in what Huldra brought us (with tiny wording changes consistent with being translated to Hebrew and back). It means that Peretz quoted it in Haolam Hazeh, but beyond that I can't say anything. -- Zero talk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
As for what Wikipedia takes, I think that Nazareth needs a dry recitation of events (withoput the quotation) and the quotation, being more personal to Dunkelman, belongs here. -- Zero talk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Huldra added the story about the Rabin memoir, I can mention that it was published in Israel as soon as it was published in the NYT (since the NYT publication meant that Israeli censorship no longer applied to it) and Rabin confirmed it. In fact he told the same story to other people as well. -- Zero talk 11:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
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A.S. Brown: For example, "The Christians of Nazareth had little interest in being incorporated into a Muslim state, whatever under the leadership of King Abdullah I of Jordan who wanted Palestine for himself or Muhammad Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the would-be future Palestinian leader who was being supported by King Farouk of Egypt and King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia. Despite a common opposition to Zionism, there were very strong fears within the Palestinian Christian community in 1948 that they would be the victims of sectarian violence in the event of an Arab victory. [Haiduc-Dale, Noah Arab Christians in British Mandate Palestine: Communalism and Nationalism, 1917-1948, Edinburgh: Edinburg University Press, 2013 p.185]"
The first sentence has no source. It does not appear in the (nice) book of Haiduc-Dale and instead there are several references to positive connections between al-Husayni and Palestinian Christians. Abdullah is only mentioned once (p137) and not in this connection. I also object to "Muslim Palestine", a phrase not appearing in the book that acts to slant the understanding away from the more common "Arab Palestine". For the second sentence, it is not acceptable to jump from "Cohen suggests" to a statement of fact.
Zero
talk 07:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ben Dunkelman article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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The writing in this is very unclear, as are the sources. The article is about Dunkelman, not the Arab-Israeli conflict, so please stick directly to his biographical details. It's also not clear why the reference to Kidron is included, or what the large block quote comes from or has to do with Dunkelman. Clarification and correct citations would be appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't find any reference to this on Amazon. Can you give a full citation, please? Also, why would the blockquote section be in his book and not Dunkelman's? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The Library of Congress catalog (an ideal place to look for such information) gives 1976 as the publication year of Dunkelman's book. A similar quotation of Dunkelman regarding Nazareth is repeated by Simcha Flapan in J. Palestine Studies Vol. 16, No. 4. (Summer, 1987), pp. 3-26 which cites an interview of Dunkelman published in Haolam Hazeh in 1980. All the essential facts of the event: the surrender document, Laskov's role, the orders for expulsion, Dunkelman's refusal, the withdrawal of the order, Dunkelman's transfer, are documented on page 419 of Morris, Birth..Revisited and associated endnotes. The version of Morris does not appear to have any disagreement on fact from the version of Dunkelman as reported by either Kidron or Flapan. The story of Nazareth should be on Nazareth in detail, but a summary belongs here since this is the issue over which Dunkelman is most known today. One last comment: of course we cite book chapters. -- Zero talk 13:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, I noticed some phrases in the version I reverted that seemed to be lifted directly from some websites e.g. "deeply attached to his Jewish roots." Please do not lift material from the Web without quoting or attributing it. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"Born in Toronto on June 26, 1913; died of cancer in Toronto, June 11, 1997, aged 83." - The Globe and Mail, 8 July 1997.
"He was awarded the Distinguised Service Order for bravery under fire during the war and was called "the savior of western Galilee" by David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister." - Toronto Star, 12 June 1997 -- Zero talk 14:07, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have a question to you all (seriously): I am copying the most "vital" information from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live,( p. 85-97 in Blaming the Victims) on to User:Huldra/Newstuff. This file is a "sand-box" for me, if you like. But copying too much there would definitely be a copy-right violation. So, how much is "fair use"? (More than three words, I hope.) Can anybody give me some advise? Regards, Huldra 03:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have added some material into my " sandbox", about the relationship between Dunkelman and Kidron (according to Kidron). I´ll add some more (on why it did not get into the "Dual Life" book) -but I´m sure I´m violating the copyright here if I add too much? Perhaps I have violated it already? Anyway, I don´t think the book is difficult (or expensive) to get hold of: just checked abebooks: 50++ copies for sale, from $6.5 upwards. Huldra 05:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I have now added what I intend to add from Peretz Kidron: Truth Whereby Nations Live, see User:Huldra/Newstuff. The text is word for word from Kidron, except where I have added [..]. I fear I have broken a zillion copyright laws. If so: please delete it. Huldra 06:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I searched a newspaper archive that covers a lot of newspapers (but the coverage around 1980 is not very thick). I also searched some full-text journal archives that cover hundreds of journals. I found nothing that adds any information to this story, and in fact I found hardly anything at all. Certainly no reply from Dunkelman. I don't find this too surprising because the story is not all that newsworthy. The 1948 war produced lots of stories like this, and Dunkelman is not famous enough for his fame to make the story bigger. As for Haolam Hazeh, Flapan's citation is "Peretz Kidron interview with Ben Dunkelman, Haolam Hazeh, 9 January 1980", but the only thing he quotes from it is the same text as quoted in what Huldra brought us (with tiny wording changes consistent with being translated to Hebrew and back). It means that Peretz quoted it in Haolam Hazeh, but beyond that I can't say anything. -- Zero talk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
As for what Wikipedia takes, I think that Nazareth needs a dry recitation of events (withoput the quotation) and the quotation, being more personal to Dunkelman, belongs here. -- Zero talk 11:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Since Huldra added the story about the Rabin memoir, I can mention that it was published in Israel as soon as it was published in the NYT (since the NYT publication meant that Israeli censorship no longer applied to it) and Rabin confirmed it. In fact he told the same story to other people as well. -- Zero talk 11:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ben Dunkelman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
To editor
A.S. Brown: For example, "The Christians of Nazareth had little interest in being incorporated into a Muslim state, whatever under the leadership of King Abdullah I of Jordan who wanted Palestine for himself or Muhammad Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the would-be future Palestinian leader who was being supported by King Farouk of Egypt and King Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia. Despite a common opposition to Zionism, there were very strong fears within the Palestinian Christian community in 1948 that they would be the victims of sectarian violence in the event of an Arab victory. [Haiduc-Dale, Noah Arab Christians in British Mandate Palestine: Communalism and Nationalism, 1917-1948, Edinburgh: Edinburg University Press, 2013 p.185]"
The first sentence has no source. It does not appear in the (nice) book of Haiduc-Dale and instead there are several references to positive connections between al-Husayni and Palestinian Christians. Abdullah is only mentioned once (p137) and not in this connection. I also object to "Muslim Palestine", a phrase not appearing in the book that acts to slant the understanding away from the more common "Arab Palestine". For the second sentence, it is not acceptable to jump from "Cohen suggests" to a statement of fact.
Zero
talk 07:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)