Can anyone help characterise the use of the English language in Belgium in such a way as to ensure it is not deleted by those who seem to be interested in bilingual "purity"?
Also, can anyone find any statistics or references that are not treated as POV by these people?
English is pretty limited in official Belgium - there are only 40,000 of us here, and it is forbidden for use in Government and associated institutions. As an example, no local government can create publications in English; instead, they ask the British Embassy to send out publications on events. Weird or what. And if anyone ever insists to you of bilingual "purity", tell them they're an idiot and that Beglium is a tri-lingual state... Although they have a point; no English and very little German (only around 600,000), so you can't really argue with them I'm afraid. David
Pardon my language, but it is bullshit to say that we "minimize the differences" between Dutch as it is spoken in Holland and Belgium when we say it is still one and the same language. Any linguist can assure you that there is far more difference between the English spoken in Bristol and Brighton than between the Dutch of Antwerp and Amsterdam. And yet no-one would dare to imply that they speak more than one language in England.
The majority of the Dutch people here are rather inclined to minimise the differences between the two, but the majority of the Flemish people know all to well that what they speak is 'vlaams' (flemish), and not 'dutch' as it is used in the Netherlands, though historical tendencies have tried to unify it, even by using 'ABN' (General *Civilised* Dutch, for crying out loud). Because it was so blatantly denigatory of Flemish, they ultimately dropped the 'civilised' part. But the tendency and attitude of some elitist intellectuals (including some Belgians, I may add) remains the same. The fact there are Belgians striving for this language-unification too, is not surprising, seen the fact that some Belgians even want a (political) unification with the Netherlands (notably in the right wing Vlaams Belang).
Now, I can't say Flemish is an officially recognised language, simply because, well, it isn't recognised as such due to the historical tendencies I just mentionned, and thus I can accept this statement in the wikipedia. But trying to dilute Flemish as being 'only dialects' is absurd; it may not have official status as the language of a distinct country, but 'in the street' Flemings call what they speak 'Flemish'.
The fact that there are different flemish dialects does nothing to change that, whether a person speaks West-flemish or not; an east-fleming will still consider it Flemish (and vice versa).
So, no, Flemish can not be portrayed as an official language of it's own, but it STILL should be portrayed as the unnofficial language of the Flemings. This lies, in practise, nearer to the truth then pretending it's all one big happy unified language, certainly considering the reality of practical (and daily) use (and perception about it) of the majority of the Flemish people. Flemish is, in this sense, not regarded as being the same as Dutch, and neither are Flemings Dutchmen, even if some would like it to be so.
The difference between Dutch and Flemish is very simple: in general, both languages are the same, however, some pronouncements and words are different. Compare it with the difference between German (Germany) and Swiss-German (Switserland).
Is the language Dutch or Flemish? Even if Flemish is a Dutch dialect, shouldn't it be mentioned in the table?
Now that's something different. When Dutch settled in South Africa in the 17th century, the kept their own language, Dutch. However, from that point, the two language evolved concurrently, and in different directions, especially after Dutch control in South Africa ended in 1806 or thereabouts. Calling Afrikaans a dialect now would not be true; it has become a language on its own. It is, however, still possible for Dutch speakers to comprehend the basic language, as many words and constructions are still the same. Jeronimo
Some more info: if you look at http://www.ethnologue.com , you'll find more linguistic details than I can offer you. You'll see that Flemish and Dutch are the same, though there is also a real language called Vlaams (=Flemish) spoken by only 200,000 people. But then again, several of the languages listed here would be classified by me as a dialect; then again I'm not a linguist. Jeronimo
This won't change much to the core of the discussion, but to call Flemish a dialect is not really true in my opinion. It's rather a regional variety of Dutch. English speakers in the US, Australia, etc... would't think of English as they speak it in terms of a dialect either, would they? - Guy
There are two meanings of the word dialect, one is the official linguistic meaning, something like 'a child node in a family tree of languages'. In that sense, English is a dialect of Germanic, which is in turn a dialect of the Indo-European language. In that sense, Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch.
Both meanings of 'dialect' are useless and I would suggest that we refrain from using them, not from the POV of being politically correct (I personally hate PCness), but for the practical reason that the use of the word 'dialect' is ambiguous and that both meanings are not really useful in this discussion.-- user:Branko
In Flanders, or the Northern part of Belgium, there are linguistically four groups of Dutch dialects. The first one is the dialect West-Vlaams (mainly spoken in West-Vlaanderen). Then you have Oost-Vlaams (spoken in Oost-Vlaanderen). The third dialect is Brabants (spoken in both Brabant and Antwerp). The fourth is Limburgs (spoken in Limburg). The use of the word Flemish for all the Dutch dialects is linguistically incorrect, but is widely used. The official language as you all know is Dutch. The use of these dialects is nowadays declining among youngsters (mainly the vocabulary). But you can still hear trough the accent from which region a person is originating.
Contributed by a non-user, Bert.
Flemish is barely different enough from Dutch to be called a dialect. Afrikaans is only just different enough to be called a separate language. Tony 10:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Flemish (Vlaams) is a group of dialects spoken in the belgian provinces West -and Oost Vlaanderen, the dutch province Zeeland, and the french region Nord-pas de Calais. Other dialectgroups in the Flemish region are Brabandic (Brabants) and Limburgish (Limburgs) these are all dutch dialects.
I haven't read all the comments here, so sorry if I'm repeating something, but it absolutely should be referred to as Flemish. It is a minor language in it's own right; it has varied grammar, different pronunciations and entirely different idioms to Dutch. Whilst I realise this could also be said for Australian/Canadian/whatever else English, I never see those as the same.
Also, the Flemish have quite a strong identity which is contained in their language (I live here, so I'm not just making it up), so I think it definitely should be changed - in fact, I have changed it several times, but it's always been changed back.
And yes, there are four main dialects of FLEMISH (not Dutch, there are far more). If you want to picky, Flemish is a dialect of Dutch itself, but is more recognised and established than "normal" dialects might be.
If that makes any sense.
David
I changed the english translation of Belgium's motto from "Strength lies in unity" to "Unity provides strength", but I wonder if that's a good move. PRO: my translation is closer to the originals (both dutch & french) and is not logically equivalent to the old english translation. CON: the old translation sounds better. -- FvdP 18:20 Sep 13, 2002 (UTC)
Dhum Dhum (no "-" between capital and region in English)
Restore page, see talk
Talk:Fleming
Giskart Walter 15:13, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The paragraph about the Inquisition in Belgium is irrelevant and misleading. At the time, both the Netherlands and Belgium were one country under Spanish rule, which is not mentioned, and quite what effect the Inquisition had is not explained ("And, since Belgium was part of Spain at the time, it also had an effect on the local religion there") .. Yes, but WHAT effect?! "This led to the massacre of thousands of Jews, Protestants, and Muslims." - well, in Spain perhaps but not in Belgium/Netherlands, so why's it relevant? Spellbinder 07:51, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is "small" POV? Should it be qualified by its area in bracket or rank in terms of area...? - Hemanshu 03:08, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
__________
I think that this remark is not true : "For example, a school building in Brussels would be regulated by the regional government of Brussels. The school as an institution however would fall under the regulations of either the Flemish government, if the primary language of teaching is Dutch, or the French Community government, if the primary language is French".
The "French" school buildings are not regulated by the bilingual (French-Dutch) Brussels-Capital Region's Government itself but are regulated by the Société Publique d'Administration des Bâtiments Scolaires, which is a public office dependent of the French-Speaking Community Commission (Commission Communautaire Française) at a time when the school herself as education service is regulated by the French Community Wallonia-Brussels (the French Community is the community of all french-speaking people, Brussels people and Walloon people together). I don't know about the "Flemish" school buildings in Brussels (regulated by the Flemish Community Commission - VGC-Vlaams Gemeenschapscommissie - or by the Flemish Community-Vlaams Gemenschap ?)
"hotly contested" "all flemings" "they deeply resent" imperialistic" all seem a bit exaggerated to me. The reality is that most Belgians don't give a danm about the nationalist mumbo-jumbo. Most don't even know the state works, let alone have an opinion on it. When such emotional terminology regarding a Belgian institution is used , it can only mean one thing : the text above was written by a (in this case flemish) nationalist.
Belgium is a curse word in the radio series and US version of the The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. A famous fictional work.
The river Maas should be called by both its Dutch and French names in an article on Belgium, and only in Dutch in an article on Holland or Limburg, and only in French in an article on France or Liege.
Also, it is actually better to say Schelde than Scheldt in English, since there is a tendency to use real names (Aachen, Torino, Brugge, Vlissingen, Hoek van Holland) rather than names copied from the French (Aix la Chapelle, Turin, Bruges) or obsolete English names (Flushing, Hook of Holland).
As the major rivers Maas and Schelde are given, however these are the Dutch names. To my knowledge Scheldt is the official English name for the river, while the French name Meuse is used in English according to VanDaele. Anyone mind if I edit the right names in. (Also: Sinterklaasdag should be written as one word) First post here, so I thought it might be better if I didn't just barge in and change the main page. -- Jeroen H, 4 May 2004 (Belgium)
Edits by Edcolins are highlighted in black and edits by 81.242.233.251 in blue (in order to be able to read through it).
I've just reverted edits by 80.200.12.186 who wrote that Dutch-speakers made +/-60% of the population while French-speakers made +/-40% of it. According to the Belgian National Institute of Statistics [1] (in Dutch) or [2] (in French), in 2000, there were 10.280.670 inhabitants in Belgium: 9,4% of them in the Brussels-Capital region, 58,0% in Flanders and 32,6% in Wallonia. It is however impossible to find exactly how many inhabitants of these three regions speak which language (there is no linguistic census anymore in Belgium).
I am from Brussels and French-speaking. Just because the Brussels region is regarded as 'bilingual' this does not mean you can label all Brussels citizens as speaking both languages. There is nothing scientific in your claim. Brussels is a predominantly French-speaking region (and this irritates the Flemish community since they claim the city as their capital). As for French-speaking nationalists, there isn't much of French-speaking nationalism anymore. Flemish nationalists (Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang) are more virulent. (Chris 20/10/05)
So, any hint about the following questions? (with my guesses in brackets):
So (after combination) my guess for first language spoken is 54-55% Dutch-speakers, 38-39% French-speakers and 6-7% other (incl. German).
-- Edcolins 10:34, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
I would like to suggest another scientific way of counting: look at the result of the last elections, available here. If I sum up Dutch-speaking parties against French-speaking parties, I get 62% - 38%. Of course this doesn't account for people voting for the 'other lannguage'. But in any case, the most likely occurence for this is French-speaking people voting for Vlaams Blok (at the time), because it is the main far right party.
Full disclosure: I am French speaking Paul Dehaye 22:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And I am Vlaams, Vlaams is not only a language (recognized or not) it is also a culture and an ethnicity. Any attempts to disgrace this by political arguments is contrary to the purposes of wikipedia. Brussels is a funny region because it is historically Vlaams but many people have spoken french over the years for historical reasons, but they are still Vlaams, only they don't practice their language. Please consider including a bit about the fact that Vlaams is an unrecognized language, because it is. More so, the official Nederlands that is used in Belgium in different in usage than in Holland. The words are different and sentance structure is different. Many phrases may have a different meaning in the end to either populations. Confer US and UK English: Have you got children vs Do you have children.
As for Voeren I think it is funny to note that clientalism influences local politics more so than language. The elected officials ensure they are liked.
The link to Brabançonne doesn't show up normally in the infobox. Help needed... -- Edcolins 19:42, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
Should Belgium be a member of both Category:Benelux countries and Category:EU countries? Since EU countries eclipses benelux countries, shouldn't belgium just be a member of benelux, and benelux be a subcat of EU countries? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:43, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
Personally, as a Belgian, I think the mentioning of Marc Dutroux as a related topic to Belgium, is irrelevant here (and even humiliating for all Belgians). I do not see how this should be mentioned on the homepage as a related topic, because it's not something typical Belgian. I think there could be a link to on an extensive related topics page, like the List of United Kingdom-related topics, but IMO this subject is not worth to be mentioned on the home page of Belgium, because in se it is unrelated to the country. It's not like for example a war which had an enormous influence on the further history of the country. Fhimpe 10:59, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If I click on the link "In detail" in the infobox, I jump to the editing page of Flag of Belgium and not to the article itself. Does anyone know how to fix this? RonaldW 20:20, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
quote: Between World War I and World War II the centre of occult and mystical activity in Western Europe was shifted from France to Belgium. Belgium became the main centre for many esoteric brotherhoods and secret societies of which many branches still exist today.
Being a Belgian myself, this is quote is a mystery to me. It's certainly something I haven't learned in my national history lessons. Could the author possibly refer to appropriate sources of information on this? Fortinbras 10:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Does anybody else believe that Belgium may not exist and that the biggest cover up in the history of humanity has yet to be found out?
Request for comment: Should we write: "Belgium is at a cultural crossroad between (...)" or "Belgium is at a cultural crossroads between (...)"? It is not clear to me. -- Edcolins 09:33, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
What's wrong withy the sentence "For the next century and a half, the Flemish culture was subsequently severely suppressed." As far as I can see it, AND as is being acknowledged by as good as all contemporary French historians, ... (as prof. Hasquin, also a prominent French-speaking liberal who does knows both 'sides' very well), this is FACT. I would rherefore invite the person who removed it, to provide at least a good explanation why both ma and all those historians (incl. the French-speakers) would be wrong. Many thanks in advance, -- Rudi Dierick 14:26, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My opinion is, that in the whole article, but for sure under the head "languages spoken in Belgium" Dutch should comes first, not French. Now it says "French, Dutch, German" and it should say "Dutch, French, German". This should also be done for the national moto and in the article of the national anthem. As it is now, it sounds to me like "languages spoken in U.S.A. Spanisch, English". It is correct but it gives the wrong impression.
well french is a langage way more important than dutch in the world
That is an extremely dumb argument. If you don't know the customs of a country, you shouldn't have such an outspoken opinion of it. It just doesn't make you look very intelligent. The order of languages should be "Dutch, French, German".
Besides, what do you mean by "more important"? Spoken more often? More influential? Please, use the correct wording when you are going to annoy people anyway.
The interlanguage link to os: seems to be broken. Anyone have any idea what's going on or how to fix it? -- Beland 06:08, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 19:35, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
"Flemish" is NO language. Apart from a difference in the pronunciation and apart from some variations in vocabulary, there is NO difference between the Dutch spoken in The Netherlands and the Dutch spoken in Flanders; the language spoken by the Flemish people in Belgium is Dutch. (E.g: the official language of Australia is English. Not "Australian English", but plainly "English".) The official languages of Belgium are Dutch, French and German. Not "Flemish", but "Dutch". Everyone who keeps insisting there is a "Flemish language", is making a fool of himself.
Please change the article to use Template:OtherUses instead of Template:otheruses it currently uses. The OtherUses template has information about the contents of the article.
{{OtherUses|info=information about the contents of the article}}
For a sample use of this template refer to the articles Alabama or Algiers--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DuKot ( talk • contribs) .
Put the article about 175 years Belgium back in. I do not see how this is propaganda. This is truly a feast for the Belgians and , finally, an occasion where Walloons, Flemish and other Belgian entities can all be proud of their country together.
"175 years Belgium On the 21st of July 2005 Belgium will have a great feast to remeber 25 years of federalism and 175 years Belgium. ( *Belgium is celebrating the 175th anniversary of its independence and the 25th anniversary of the federal state - in French, Dutch, English, German )
Belgium is celebrating the 175th anniversary of its independence and the 25th anniversary of the federal state. The various entities of this country, i.e. the federal government and the Communities and Regions, are all involved in the organisation of these exceptional celebrations. This festive year, which is dedicated to looking forward to the future, encourages and provides many opportunities for coming together. It's all about exchanging ideas between cultures, between generations, between the political, economic and social worlds, and between citizens."
I don't understand why Energy Politics is more important than other topics like Foreign Politics or Military Politics and so on. The problem is that, if each of this subparagraphs of Politics were expanded as much as Energy Politics, I think the Belgium would get much too big. I think this topic is interesting enough and important to discuss but in Politics of Belgium or History of Belgium and not here. A revert edit war has irrupted on this topic. I have added a frame inspired of the Indian one. I think, if we want to make out of this article a featured article we really have to observe those simple rules. -- 131.220.68.177 13:42, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Rudi has changed the intro in this way:
I don't agree with this change because, though I understand Belgium is composed of two main ethnic groups (this is also stated in the CIA World Fact Book), I think this issue is for many Belgians still controversial. Some people may be hurt because they don't feel Walloons nor Flemish but simply Belgian or European or citizen of a particular Belgian city or subregion. We should stick to the fact that two main languages are used in Belgium. Saying that those both languages are linked with the appartenance to an ethinc group is a controversial issue and should not appear in this article or at least not directly in the introduction. -- 131.220.68.177 13:51, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Let me just say this:
Note the presumed part. Rex 09:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
You're not suggesting that Belgium is basicly composed of Dutch and French people right? Because although that is a defendable (and even logical) assumption, a lot of Belgians would oppose that. Rex 14:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I was referring to Lucas Richards piece, I was trying to give the reason why Waloon ppl pose as French and Flemish ppl pose as being Dutch. I believe the belgium population consists of French speaking Belgains and Dutch speaking Belgians, although the divide is starting to grow. Wout semi-unsigned comment by
User:84.197.184.249
I removed the precise numbers displayed previously in demographics. I don't doubt about them but they are difficult to check without any provided references. If you can provide more precise numbers please give them together with a reliable source. These numbers are changing each year and must be regularly updated. I even doubt whether we can let the percents about the religions in Belgium like that without reference. I wonder whether we should simply suppress them. -- 131.220.68.177 13:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
In History: Middle Ages, the term "Romanesque" is used to describe the historical period. However, this seems like it is mostly an architectural term with little crossover (see Romanesque). Or is it an appropriate term for both categories (like Victorian)?
Dear editors, This article has recently failed to get featured. Is someone interested in creating a to-do list for attaining this aim? I have the feeling we were very close to get featured but the comments of the voters were so negative that I have the feeling this is untrue. What do you think about that? What should be the priority improvements? -- 147.231.28.83 13:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Belgium is officially a federal state, but not actually in a continuous state of devolution. I will agree that since the beginning of federalisation 25 years ago, many things have devolved to the Flemish/Walloon government, but things are not constantly devolving. Not officially anyways. Devolution is only possible by law, and so far no new laws promoting devolution have been passed. I therefore removed this small passage from the text.
I agree with all the info added recently by JoJan and others. All of this is correct and important: Status od the Congo, temporary government in 1830, Leopold I, etc... I also personaly agree with the splitting of the paragraph about Belgian current policies in three. But I am affraid people commenting at the FAC page don't like that and will prevent the page to be featured for such reasons. On the one hand I agree with them too. The page must not be lenghty-boring for someone not familiar with Belgium and citing Leopold as first king is a bit sad for all the other important persons which are not cited (the other kings, important Prime Minister, Charles V, Phillip II, Clovis, etc...). Other events are also important ( United States of Belgium,...) and are not listed in order to keep a short history section and a NPOV. It seems also as a criteria for featured article that there should be no list-like or too short paragraphs. Cutting a pragraph into three is therefore negative from this point of view. Putting all current policies issues seems to help readers which are not interested in this aspect of Belgium. I hope these editors will understand this and make the changes by themself or conter argue. If they won't, I will. Tell me your mind about this but read before the comments left by the editors at the peer review and trial to get featured. Vb 18:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
which for the last thirty years has been in a continuous process of devolution
This should be reworded :
Following the Berlin Conference in 1885, King Leopold II obtained sovereignty over Belgium's primary foreign colony, the Congo Free State, later called the Belgian Congo.
In my opinion such wording is closer to historical truth. JoJan 18:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
~::I agree with your formulation. JoJan 13:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Vb, I wonder whether you can make the boundary between the language regions more distinct. And can you insert the names of the neighbouring countries roughly in their position, without making the map look crowded? Just suggestions. Tony 05:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
For students from July 1 to August 31 or to September 15. Julien Tuerlinckx 13:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
May I point out that Tony Parker, a basketball player with the San Antonio Spurs, was born in Bruges and therefore he should be added to the list of Belgians this page links to.
Can anyone help characterise the use of the English language in Belgium in such a way as to ensure it is not deleted by those who seem to be interested in bilingual "purity"?
Also, can anyone find any statistics or references that are not treated as POV by these people?
English is pretty limited in official Belgium - there are only 40,000 of us here, and it is forbidden for use in Government and associated institutions. As an example, no local government can create publications in English; instead, they ask the British Embassy to send out publications on events. Weird or what. And if anyone ever insists to you of bilingual "purity", tell them they're an idiot and that Beglium is a tri-lingual state... Although they have a point; no English and very little German (only around 600,000), so you can't really argue with them I'm afraid. David
Pardon my language, but it is bullshit to say that we "minimize the differences" between Dutch as it is spoken in Holland and Belgium when we say it is still one and the same language. Any linguist can assure you that there is far more difference between the English spoken in Bristol and Brighton than between the Dutch of Antwerp and Amsterdam. And yet no-one would dare to imply that they speak more than one language in England.
The majority of the Dutch people here are rather inclined to minimise the differences between the two, but the majority of the Flemish people know all to well that what they speak is 'vlaams' (flemish), and not 'dutch' as it is used in the Netherlands, though historical tendencies have tried to unify it, even by using 'ABN' (General *Civilised* Dutch, for crying out loud). Because it was so blatantly denigatory of Flemish, they ultimately dropped the 'civilised' part. But the tendency and attitude of some elitist intellectuals (including some Belgians, I may add) remains the same. The fact there are Belgians striving for this language-unification too, is not surprising, seen the fact that some Belgians even want a (political) unification with the Netherlands (notably in the right wing Vlaams Belang).
Now, I can't say Flemish is an officially recognised language, simply because, well, it isn't recognised as such due to the historical tendencies I just mentionned, and thus I can accept this statement in the wikipedia. But trying to dilute Flemish as being 'only dialects' is absurd; it may not have official status as the language of a distinct country, but 'in the street' Flemings call what they speak 'Flemish'.
The fact that there are different flemish dialects does nothing to change that, whether a person speaks West-flemish or not; an east-fleming will still consider it Flemish (and vice versa).
So, no, Flemish can not be portrayed as an official language of it's own, but it STILL should be portrayed as the unnofficial language of the Flemings. This lies, in practise, nearer to the truth then pretending it's all one big happy unified language, certainly considering the reality of practical (and daily) use (and perception about it) of the majority of the Flemish people. Flemish is, in this sense, not regarded as being the same as Dutch, and neither are Flemings Dutchmen, even if some would like it to be so.
The difference between Dutch and Flemish is very simple: in general, both languages are the same, however, some pronouncements and words are different. Compare it with the difference between German (Germany) and Swiss-German (Switserland).
Is the language Dutch or Flemish? Even if Flemish is a Dutch dialect, shouldn't it be mentioned in the table?
Now that's something different. When Dutch settled in South Africa in the 17th century, the kept their own language, Dutch. However, from that point, the two language evolved concurrently, and in different directions, especially after Dutch control in South Africa ended in 1806 or thereabouts. Calling Afrikaans a dialect now would not be true; it has become a language on its own. It is, however, still possible for Dutch speakers to comprehend the basic language, as many words and constructions are still the same. Jeronimo
Some more info: if you look at http://www.ethnologue.com , you'll find more linguistic details than I can offer you. You'll see that Flemish and Dutch are the same, though there is also a real language called Vlaams (=Flemish) spoken by only 200,000 people. But then again, several of the languages listed here would be classified by me as a dialect; then again I'm not a linguist. Jeronimo
This won't change much to the core of the discussion, but to call Flemish a dialect is not really true in my opinion. It's rather a regional variety of Dutch. English speakers in the US, Australia, etc... would't think of English as they speak it in terms of a dialect either, would they? - Guy
There are two meanings of the word dialect, one is the official linguistic meaning, something like 'a child node in a family tree of languages'. In that sense, English is a dialect of Germanic, which is in turn a dialect of the Indo-European language. In that sense, Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch.
Both meanings of 'dialect' are useless and I would suggest that we refrain from using them, not from the POV of being politically correct (I personally hate PCness), but for the practical reason that the use of the word 'dialect' is ambiguous and that both meanings are not really useful in this discussion.-- user:Branko
In Flanders, or the Northern part of Belgium, there are linguistically four groups of Dutch dialects. The first one is the dialect West-Vlaams (mainly spoken in West-Vlaanderen). Then you have Oost-Vlaams (spoken in Oost-Vlaanderen). The third dialect is Brabants (spoken in both Brabant and Antwerp). The fourth is Limburgs (spoken in Limburg). The use of the word Flemish for all the Dutch dialects is linguistically incorrect, but is widely used. The official language as you all know is Dutch. The use of these dialects is nowadays declining among youngsters (mainly the vocabulary). But you can still hear trough the accent from which region a person is originating.
Contributed by a non-user, Bert.
Flemish is barely different enough from Dutch to be called a dialect. Afrikaans is only just different enough to be called a separate language. Tony 10:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Flemish (Vlaams) is a group of dialects spoken in the belgian provinces West -and Oost Vlaanderen, the dutch province Zeeland, and the french region Nord-pas de Calais. Other dialectgroups in the Flemish region are Brabandic (Brabants) and Limburgish (Limburgs) these are all dutch dialects.
I haven't read all the comments here, so sorry if I'm repeating something, but it absolutely should be referred to as Flemish. It is a minor language in it's own right; it has varied grammar, different pronunciations and entirely different idioms to Dutch. Whilst I realise this could also be said for Australian/Canadian/whatever else English, I never see those as the same.
Also, the Flemish have quite a strong identity which is contained in their language (I live here, so I'm not just making it up), so I think it definitely should be changed - in fact, I have changed it several times, but it's always been changed back.
And yes, there are four main dialects of FLEMISH (not Dutch, there are far more). If you want to picky, Flemish is a dialect of Dutch itself, but is more recognised and established than "normal" dialects might be.
If that makes any sense.
David
I changed the english translation of Belgium's motto from "Strength lies in unity" to "Unity provides strength", but I wonder if that's a good move. PRO: my translation is closer to the originals (both dutch & french) and is not logically equivalent to the old english translation. CON: the old translation sounds better. -- FvdP 18:20 Sep 13, 2002 (UTC)
Dhum Dhum (no "-" between capital and region in English)
Restore page, see talk
Talk:Fleming
Giskart Walter 15:13, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The paragraph about the Inquisition in Belgium is irrelevant and misleading. At the time, both the Netherlands and Belgium were one country under Spanish rule, which is not mentioned, and quite what effect the Inquisition had is not explained ("And, since Belgium was part of Spain at the time, it also had an effect on the local religion there") .. Yes, but WHAT effect?! "This led to the massacre of thousands of Jews, Protestants, and Muslims." - well, in Spain perhaps but not in Belgium/Netherlands, so why's it relevant? Spellbinder 07:51, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Is "small" POV? Should it be qualified by its area in bracket or rank in terms of area...? - Hemanshu 03:08, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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I think that this remark is not true : "For example, a school building in Brussels would be regulated by the regional government of Brussels. The school as an institution however would fall under the regulations of either the Flemish government, if the primary language of teaching is Dutch, or the French Community government, if the primary language is French".
The "French" school buildings are not regulated by the bilingual (French-Dutch) Brussels-Capital Region's Government itself but are regulated by the Société Publique d'Administration des Bâtiments Scolaires, which is a public office dependent of the French-Speaking Community Commission (Commission Communautaire Française) at a time when the school herself as education service is regulated by the French Community Wallonia-Brussels (the French Community is the community of all french-speaking people, Brussels people and Walloon people together). I don't know about the "Flemish" school buildings in Brussels (regulated by the Flemish Community Commission - VGC-Vlaams Gemeenschapscommissie - or by the Flemish Community-Vlaams Gemenschap ?)
"hotly contested" "all flemings" "they deeply resent" imperialistic" all seem a bit exaggerated to me. The reality is that most Belgians don't give a danm about the nationalist mumbo-jumbo. Most don't even know the state works, let alone have an opinion on it. When such emotional terminology regarding a Belgian institution is used , it can only mean one thing : the text above was written by a (in this case flemish) nationalist.
Belgium is a curse word in the radio series and US version of the The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. A famous fictional work.
The river Maas should be called by both its Dutch and French names in an article on Belgium, and only in Dutch in an article on Holland or Limburg, and only in French in an article on France or Liege.
Also, it is actually better to say Schelde than Scheldt in English, since there is a tendency to use real names (Aachen, Torino, Brugge, Vlissingen, Hoek van Holland) rather than names copied from the French (Aix la Chapelle, Turin, Bruges) or obsolete English names (Flushing, Hook of Holland).
As the major rivers Maas and Schelde are given, however these are the Dutch names. To my knowledge Scheldt is the official English name for the river, while the French name Meuse is used in English according to VanDaele. Anyone mind if I edit the right names in. (Also: Sinterklaasdag should be written as one word) First post here, so I thought it might be better if I didn't just barge in and change the main page. -- Jeroen H, 4 May 2004 (Belgium)
Edits by Edcolins are highlighted in black and edits by 81.242.233.251 in blue (in order to be able to read through it).
I've just reverted edits by 80.200.12.186 who wrote that Dutch-speakers made +/-60% of the population while French-speakers made +/-40% of it. According to the Belgian National Institute of Statistics [1] (in Dutch) or [2] (in French), in 2000, there were 10.280.670 inhabitants in Belgium: 9,4% of them in the Brussels-Capital region, 58,0% in Flanders and 32,6% in Wallonia. It is however impossible to find exactly how many inhabitants of these three regions speak which language (there is no linguistic census anymore in Belgium).
I am from Brussels and French-speaking. Just because the Brussels region is regarded as 'bilingual' this does not mean you can label all Brussels citizens as speaking both languages. There is nothing scientific in your claim. Brussels is a predominantly French-speaking region (and this irritates the Flemish community since they claim the city as their capital). As for French-speaking nationalists, there isn't much of French-speaking nationalism anymore. Flemish nationalists (Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belang) are more virulent. (Chris 20/10/05)
So, any hint about the following questions? (with my guesses in brackets):
So (after combination) my guess for first language spoken is 54-55% Dutch-speakers, 38-39% French-speakers and 6-7% other (incl. German).
-- Edcolins 10:34, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
I would like to suggest another scientific way of counting: look at the result of the last elections, available here. If I sum up Dutch-speaking parties against French-speaking parties, I get 62% - 38%. Of course this doesn't account for people voting for the 'other lannguage'. But in any case, the most likely occurence for this is French-speaking people voting for Vlaams Blok (at the time), because it is the main far right party.
Full disclosure: I am French speaking Paul Dehaye 22:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And I am Vlaams, Vlaams is not only a language (recognized or not) it is also a culture and an ethnicity. Any attempts to disgrace this by political arguments is contrary to the purposes of wikipedia. Brussels is a funny region because it is historically Vlaams but many people have spoken french over the years for historical reasons, but they are still Vlaams, only they don't practice their language. Please consider including a bit about the fact that Vlaams is an unrecognized language, because it is. More so, the official Nederlands that is used in Belgium in different in usage than in Holland. The words are different and sentance structure is different. Many phrases may have a different meaning in the end to either populations. Confer US and UK English: Have you got children vs Do you have children.
As for Voeren I think it is funny to note that clientalism influences local politics more so than language. The elected officials ensure they are liked.
The link to Brabançonne doesn't show up normally in the infobox. Help needed... -- Edcolins 19:42, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
Should Belgium be a member of both Category:Benelux countries and Category:EU countries? Since EU countries eclipses benelux countries, shouldn't belgium just be a member of benelux, and benelux be a subcat of EU countries? - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:43, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)
Personally, as a Belgian, I think the mentioning of Marc Dutroux as a related topic to Belgium, is irrelevant here (and even humiliating for all Belgians). I do not see how this should be mentioned on the homepage as a related topic, because it's not something typical Belgian. I think there could be a link to on an extensive related topics page, like the List of United Kingdom-related topics, but IMO this subject is not worth to be mentioned on the home page of Belgium, because in se it is unrelated to the country. It's not like for example a war which had an enormous influence on the further history of the country. Fhimpe 10:59, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If I click on the link "In detail" in the infobox, I jump to the editing page of Flag of Belgium and not to the article itself. Does anyone know how to fix this? RonaldW 20:20, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
quote: Between World War I and World War II the centre of occult and mystical activity in Western Europe was shifted from France to Belgium. Belgium became the main centre for many esoteric brotherhoods and secret societies of which many branches still exist today.
Being a Belgian myself, this is quote is a mystery to me. It's certainly something I haven't learned in my national history lessons. Could the author possibly refer to appropriate sources of information on this? Fortinbras 10:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Does anybody else believe that Belgium may not exist and that the biggest cover up in the history of humanity has yet to be found out?
Request for comment: Should we write: "Belgium is at a cultural crossroad between (...)" or "Belgium is at a cultural crossroads between (...)"? It is not clear to me. -- Edcolins 09:33, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
What's wrong withy the sentence "For the next century and a half, the Flemish culture was subsequently severely suppressed." As far as I can see it, AND as is being acknowledged by as good as all contemporary French historians, ... (as prof. Hasquin, also a prominent French-speaking liberal who does knows both 'sides' very well), this is FACT. I would rherefore invite the person who removed it, to provide at least a good explanation why both ma and all those historians (incl. the French-speakers) would be wrong. Many thanks in advance, -- Rudi Dierick 14:26, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My opinion is, that in the whole article, but for sure under the head "languages spoken in Belgium" Dutch should comes first, not French. Now it says "French, Dutch, German" and it should say "Dutch, French, German". This should also be done for the national moto and in the article of the national anthem. As it is now, it sounds to me like "languages spoken in U.S.A. Spanisch, English". It is correct but it gives the wrong impression.
well french is a langage way more important than dutch in the world
That is an extremely dumb argument. If you don't know the customs of a country, you shouldn't have such an outspoken opinion of it. It just doesn't make you look very intelligent. The order of languages should be "Dutch, French, German".
Besides, what do you mean by "more important"? Spoken more often? More influential? Please, use the correct wording when you are going to annoy people anyway.
The interlanguage link to os: seems to be broken. Anyone have any idea what's going on or how to fix it? -- Beland 06:08, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 19:35, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
"Flemish" is NO language. Apart from a difference in the pronunciation and apart from some variations in vocabulary, there is NO difference between the Dutch spoken in The Netherlands and the Dutch spoken in Flanders; the language spoken by the Flemish people in Belgium is Dutch. (E.g: the official language of Australia is English. Not "Australian English", but plainly "English".) The official languages of Belgium are Dutch, French and German. Not "Flemish", but "Dutch". Everyone who keeps insisting there is a "Flemish language", is making a fool of himself.
Please change the article to use Template:OtherUses instead of Template:otheruses it currently uses. The OtherUses template has information about the contents of the article.
{{OtherUses|info=information about the contents of the article}}
For a sample use of this template refer to the articles Alabama or Algiers--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by DuKot ( talk • contribs) .
Put the article about 175 years Belgium back in. I do not see how this is propaganda. This is truly a feast for the Belgians and , finally, an occasion where Walloons, Flemish and other Belgian entities can all be proud of their country together.
"175 years Belgium On the 21st of July 2005 Belgium will have a great feast to remeber 25 years of federalism and 175 years Belgium. ( *Belgium is celebrating the 175th anniversary of its independence and the 25th anniversary of the federal state - in French, Dutch, English, German )
Belgium is celebrating the 175th anniversary of its independence and the 25th anniversary of the federal state. The various entities of this country, i.e. the federal government and the Communities and Regions, are all involved in the organisation of these exceptional celebrations. This festive year, which is dedicated to looking forward to the future, encourages and provides many opportunities for coming together. It's all about exchanging ideas between cultures, between generations, between the political, economic and social worlds, and between citizens."
I don't understand why Energy Politics is more important than other topics like Foreign Politics or Military Politics and so on. The problem is that, if each of this subparagraphs of Politics were expanded as much as Energy Politics, I think the Belgium would get much too big. I think this topic is interesting enough and important to discuss but in Politics of Belgium or History of Belgium and not here. A revert edit war has irrupted on this topic. I have added a frame inspired of the Indian one. I think, if we want to make out of this article a featured article we really have to observe those simple rules. -- 131.220.68.177 13:42, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Rudi has changed the intro in this way:
I don't agree with this change because, though I understand Belgium is composed of two main ethnic groups (this is also stated in the CIA World Fact Book), I think this issue is for many Belgians still controversial. Some people may be hurt because they don't feel Walloons nor Flemish but simply Belgian or European or citizen of a particular Belgian city or subregion. We should stick to the fact that two main languages are used in Belgium. Saying that those both languages are linked with the appartenance to an ethinc group is a controversial issue and should not appear in this article or at least not directly in the introduction. -- 131.220.68.177 13:51, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Let me just say this:
Note the presumed part. Rex 09:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
You're not suggesting that Belgium is basicly composed of Dutch and French people right? Because although that is a defendable (and even logical) assumption, a lot of Belgians would oppose that. Rex 14:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I was referring to Lucas Richards piece, I was trying to give the reason why Waloon ppl pose as French and Flemish ppl pose as being Dutch. I believe the belgium population consists of French speaking Belgains and Dutch speaking Belgians, although the divide is starting to grow. Wout semi-unsigned comment by
User:84.197.184.249
I removed the precise numbers displayed previously in demographics. I don't doubt about them but they are difficult to check without any provided references. If you can provide more precise numbers please give them together with a reliable source. These numbers are changing each year and must be regularly updated. I even doubt whether we can let the percents about the religions in Belgium like that without reference. I wonder whether we should simply suppress them. -- 131.220.68.177 13:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
In History: Middle Ages, the term "Romanesque" is used to describe the historical period. However, this seems like it is mostly an architectural term with little crossover (see Romanesque). Or is it an appropriate term for both categories (like Victorian)?
Dear editors, This article has recently failed to get featured. Is someone interested in creating a to-do list for attaining this aim? I have the feeling we were very close to get featured but the comments of the voters were so negative that I have the feeling this is untrue. What do you think about that? What should be the priority improvements? -- 147.231.28.83 13:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Belgium is officially a federal state, but not actually in a continuous state of devolution. I will agree that since the beginning of federalisation 25 years ago, many things have devolved to the Flemish/Walloon government, but things are not constantly devolving. Not officially anyways. Devolution is only possible by law, and so far no new laws promoting devolution have been passed. I therefore removed this small passage from the text.
I agree with all the info added recently by JoJan and others. All of this is correct and important: Status od the Congo, temporary government in 1830, Leopold I, etc... I also personaly agree with the splitting of the paragraph about Belgian current policies in three. But I am affraid people commenting at the FAC page don't like that and will prevent the page to be featured for such reasons. On the one hand I agree with them too. The page must not be lenghty-boring for someone not familiar with Belgium and citing Leopold as first king is a bit sad for all the other important persons which are not cited (the other kings, important Prime Minister, Charles V, Phillip II, Clovis, etc...). Other events are also important ( United States of Belgium,...) and are not listed in order to keep a short history section and a NPOV. It seems also as a criteria for featured article that there should be no list-like or too short paragraphs. Cutting a pragraph into three is therefore negative from this point of view. Putting all current policies issues seems to help readers which are not interested in this aspect of Belgium. I hope these editors will understand this and make the changes by themself or conter argue. If they won't, I will. Tell me your mind about this but read before the comments left by the editors at the peer review and trial to get featured. Vb 18:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
which for the last thirty years has been in a continuous process of devolution
This should be reworded :
Following the Berlin Conference in 1885, King Leopold II obtained sovereignty over Belgium's primary foreign colony, the Congo Free State, later called the Belgian Congo.
In my opinion such wording is closer to historical truth. JoJan 18:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
~::I agree with your formulation. JoJan 13:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Vb, I wonder whether you can make the boundary between the language regions more distinct. And can you insert the names of the neighbouring countries roughly in their position, without making the map look crowded? Just suggestions. Tony 05:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
For students from July 1 to August 31 or to September 15. Julien Tuerlinckx 13:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
May I point out that Tony Parker, a basketball player with the San Antonio Spurs, was born in Bruges and therefore he should be added to the list of Belgians this page links to.