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I have removed more blatant and unsupported POV statements from the article, as the edit history will show. I have not the time to go back and find out who is responsible, but it appears to be some editor not familiar with Wiki policies on sourcing, WP:OR, or POV statements. Since none of these removed statements are objectively verifiable, may I suggest that the editor(s) in question consider starting a blog to support their POV and refrain from editing such statements into an encyclopedia article that strives for objectivity.
Additionally, editors should review the history opf this article and consider the absolute painstaking efforts that have been made to keep it objective and balanced - and not attempt to make WP:OR and WP:POV alterations that advance a personal and controversial statement as a fact. Blogs are the proper medium for such writing. Sensei48 ( talk) 03:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Realizing that he had found the hammer that was going to probably strike through the village toward's Reno's anvil, Gall rode southwest, crossing back across the Little Bighorn River and warned the hundreds of warriors who had just returned from their repulse of Reno of this new threat from the Northeast.
[Chief Gall|Gall]]. He had crossed the Little Bighorn and had ridden up to the ridgeline south east of what is today called Sharpshooters Ridge. From there, he had ridden stealthily to see Custer's forces concealed at that point down in Medicine Tail Coulee. Gall claimed to have ridden southwest, crossing back across the Little Bighorn River to warn the hundreds of warriors who had just returned from their repulse of Reno of this new threat from the Northeast.
1) My initial comment on 58's page and 58's response:
Hi 58!
I appreciate the energy that your current edits display and your passion for accuracy on LBH - and your note on my Talk page. I do in fact read a LOT more than edit summaries and have put more time in on this article (as referee as well as editor/writer) than nearly any other editor.
Perhaps you misunderstood MY edit summary, and you apparently do not see why your edit of Custer's division of command is seriously misplaced in this article. This is a matter of rhetoric and chronology. The rhetorical problem is that by placing the division of GAC's command where you do, in the paragraph at the outset of the campaign, prior to June 17 Rosebud, the inescapable implication is that this division was made at that time by Terry or under his supervision.
Your clear expertise about the battle tells me that you know that this was not so - that the division of the 7th Cavalry into three battalions was a controversial command decision made by GAC immediately prior to the battle.
Certainly the division of the 7th into battalions (or detachments, as the article now states) needs to be elucidated, but not in that paragraph. Look again, please - every other unit described in that paragraph left their respective forts in the configurations there presented. Putting GAC's division of June 25th should not be in the same paragraph with Terry's columns leaving Ft. Lincoln on May 29.
We have a dozen or so other editors and admins working consistently on this article, and rather than go to the three revert situation, perhaps we could ask someone else to take a look at the placement and comment. Regards Sensei48 (talk) 09:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
4) The interchange subsequent to the above
This is copied from my Talk page User:Sensei48, which I have used as a discussion log since User58 has deleted my response to him at one critical point. Sensei48 ( talk) 08:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment in response to an alert at WT:MHCOORD#Battle of the Little Bighorn: To assist editors that may be unfamiliar with Wikipedia, one of our core principles is that we rely only on reliable secondary sources for article content. For an article such as this, these will be published, peer-reviewed historical works by reputable experts in the field. The ideal Wikipedia article is an originally-written distillation of unoriginal material, so in one sense we need no subject expertise as long as we have access to appropriate sources. Where expertise is helpful is in knowing where to find such sources and in identifying gaps in the subject coverage or assigning appropriate weight to historians' differing opinions; in other words, highlighting the nuances that a layman might be unaware of. Where sources differ, the article should reflect that. There are a number of ways to do this: in the text itself by attributing opinion where sources are roughly equal in ther weight (eg "According to historian X, .... However, historian Y takes the view that..."); using footnotes for a significant minority opinion; following the perponderant mainstream view in the article and dedicating a separate section, perhaps towards the end, to discussing the historical analysis (see Operation Epsom for an example of this); or any combination of the above. The only thing there's absolutely no room for is personal interpretation or synthesis - what Wikipedia calls original research. If it's not backed up by a source, it shouldn't be in the article. I hope this helps, EyeSerene talk 11:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Typically you are one of these people more interested in Wikipedia policy than its article contents. So, whenever you are pointed in the right direction you take it as a personal insult, and so you scream incivility. Been there, done that.
By this time Indians had been seen and it was certain that we could not suprise them, and it was determined to move at once to the attack. Previous to this, no division of the regiment had been made since the order had been issued on the Yellowstone annuling wing and battalion organizations, but Custer informed me that he would assign commands on the march.
I was ordered by Lieut. W. W. Cooke, adjutant, to assume command of Companies M, A, and G; Captain Benteen of Companies H, D, and K. Custer retained C, E, F, I, and L under his immediate command, and Company B, Captain McDougall, in rear of the pack- train.
All of the above notwithstanding, I restored a short section on the makeup of the 7th deleted in the latest wave of making this article longer and more detailed (and imo obscuring what happened, not explaining it better--but that's another story for another day), as significant to understanding why and how the Army troops performed on June 25.-- Reedmalloy ( talk) 14:04, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Who's this Thom Hatch guy? His Wiki page was full of tons of flowery bs that I removed. There was even a claim that he used to write for national publications, but nothing showed up in google scholar besides a few of his books, [3] and the most notable thing about him in a google news search is that at some point a Kansas paper claims he invented a card game with 60 cards. Looks to me like it fails wp:RS. NJGW ( talk) 04:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Our friend DOES make a good point that overland movement of men and animals in 1876 had changed little since Roman times. Certain things stay the same. I've moved deliberately overland (up a ridge and down a ridge) through the forests of Central Norway as US Marine Corps artillery officer (forward observer) assigned to an infantry company in 1980. I can tell you that with the exception of our radios and more modern weapons we moved no differently than a Roman legion through the forests of Germany or a Civil War infantry company moving through the mountains of Tennessee - Slow snaking lines, no vehicles, just men carrying all then needed on their backs. Let's not be so dismissive of points off view that can be backed up by supporting evidence/docs. Thanks! SimonATL ( talk) 17:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I moved the second and third paragraphs of the section titled "The aftermath" (3.6) up to the intro part of the section "Custer's Fight" (3.2, and slightly into 3.2.1). I made slight alterations to the paragraphs, moved some stuff around. There are several good reasons for this move, the simplest one being that mostly what's known of Custer's fight comes from its immediate aftermath, so it makes sense to start there.
Other reasons have to do with readability. "The aftermath" included a good, brief narrative treatment of a verifiable (as best as can be hoped) sequence of events that is better suited to be a summary of "Custer's fight," before subsections break the issue down into further detail. You need a basic framework to build on before you can start enumerating the possibilities. The article, as it was, began delving into conflicting theories and weighing the various circumstances before first providing a description of what is known to have happened. There was analysis of the wounds on Custer's body before any straightforward declaration of Custer's death (except in the very brief summary at the beginning of the article), and other instances of putting the cart before the horse. It was sort of unreadable, and I hope you'll agree it's now slightly less so. Still some more to do.
Also, it's only logical to continue from the account of Reno and Benteen into their discovery of what happened to Custer, because it's from them that we first knew anything, and so it nicely wraps up the contemporaneous narrative begun for the reader in the immediately preceding section. For instance, it simply makes sense to first describe Custer's death in the context of how it was learned by his contemporaries in the US Army.
The transplanted section has an additional benefit in that it happens to summarize what Curley, Custer's Crow scout, said about the battle, which apparently is the source for the most widespread popular understanding of what might have happened. Starting early with some recognition of the most familiar point of view is highly desirable, I think.
I noticed also that some of the references appear to be highly unorthodox, e.g., just "Reno Court of Inquiry" or "see above" I don't think are exactly adherent to Wikipedia's guidelines on footnoting. Other places where it strongly seemed to me that there should be sources, didn't have them (see the stuff from "The aftermath"). In spite of this, I have retained everything. Every clause is still there, if possibly slightly altered for the sake of fitting. This is far from my area of specialty, so I hope someone else can clean up the references.
I ran into places where the article contradicts itself in minor ways, such as carefully pointing out in one section that there are multiple possibilities for a certain scenario, while relying on one of those possibilities for a statement of fact in another. This occurred on the descriptions of Custer's route between the "Custer's Fight" and "The aftermath" sections, and on the possible sources of gunfire heard by Reno and Benteen's men on the bluffs. Cleaned up a little.
Good writing throughout the article, with loads of good info, but it could use some application of structure. I'm not sure that everything is in its right place yet. —
67.61.67.84 (
talk)
22:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
This talk page is 158kb long...perhaps its time to archive it? Smallman12q ( talk) 03:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
i changed the results from decisive victory to major victory, because while it was a large victory the native americans were eventually defeated after the battle. 68.206.123.207 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC).
I've reverted a well-intended and good faith edit regarding the action toward the end of the battle around Last Stand Hill. It is a good general summary on one POV regarding the battle, but it is completely unsourced. Further, even were it sourced, it would stand in contradiction on key points in the previous edit, which though equally unsourced was arrived at by a consensus of editors. These two edits can co-exist if properly sourced and melded as a presentation of a controversy - how long did the battle last? Only SOME NA accounts have it lasting as briefly as a man's dinner - others say 20 minutes - others say an hour. The simple fact is that no one know exactly what happened to GAC's detachment - or there wouldn't be a cottage industry of books trying to explain what did happen. Speculation should be presented as such.
I'm also removing a sentence I notice has crept into the lead - the unsourced POV statement that LBH caused Americans to re-assess the fighting capabilities of NA. That is an unfounded assertion from a limited number of authors. 19th century Americans frequently hated and feared NA - and not because they thought that NA couldn't fight. There were just way too many battles and encounters on both sides of the Mississippi for all but the most benighted to think that. The shock was rather from the perceived invincibility of GAC, a myth he helped to propound and which he originated during the Civil War. Sensei48 ( talk) 23:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think one has to take in the topography of the area. I get the idae from reading some of the comments in your detractors. The LAND in that area determined how, when and where the various columns would have arrived. It would also determine how the indians left and how they could be persued. Litle Bigman???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.176.168.176 ( talk) 04:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The article has a photo of a collection of horse bones on the battlefield. Anyone know what happened to these animal bones? Tragic romance ( talk) 21:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
There are currently two sections ("Number of Native American combatants" and "Battle controversies") full of unreferenced opinion constituting original research, some of it dating from June 2009. I'll delete this stuff in a week or two if it's not substantiated by references before then. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 19:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted about 80% of the edits to the new section about non-combatants made by editor Califa22651 and clearly need to explain why. The section was admirably sourced and excellently written, and a discussion of this nature was long overdue (though it should likely be placed earlier in the article). However, the vast majority of this section is not relevant to an encyclopedia article - it reads more like a scholarly article or a chapter from a book and is clearly of value in either of those contexts.
What is relevant to this article is only the material that pertains directly to LBH, and that is the material that I have left in as the new section. Much of what I reverted may well be relevant in the articles Battle of the Washita or Battle of North Fork, and I hope editor Califa22651 will consider adding it there, with the removal of POV and speculative statements. Sensei48 ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This site has been subjected to major re-editing - mostly deletions - without comment; specifically the removal of facts providing historical background and context. If the editor can justify these deletions, please to so in the discussion section; or provide addition information that contributes to a fuller understanding of the antecendents that shaped these events.
Here is the essay I posted on June 1, 2010 before the deletions were made:
The Role of Indian Noncombatants in Custer’s Strategy
The Sioux and Northern Cheyenne encampment on the Little Big Horn River comprised a key component in Lt. Colonel George A. Custer’s field strategy at the Battle of the Little Big Horn: Indian noncombatants.
Women, children, the elderly or disabled [1]were targeted for capture to serve as hostages and human shields. [2] Custer’s battalions intended to “ride into the camp and secure noncombatant hostages” [3] and “forc[e] the warriors to surrender”. [4] Author Edwin S. Connell observed that if Custer could occupy the village, before widespread resistance developed, the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors “would be obliged to surrender, because if the started to fight, they would be shooting their own families.” [5] [6]
If the military logic for tactical use of human shields is not self-evident, Custer provided them in his book My Life on the Plains, published just two years before the Battle of the Little Big Horn:
“Indians contemplating a battle, either offensive or defensive, are always anxious to have their women and children removed from all danger…For this reason I decided to locate our [military] camp as close as convenient to [Chief Black Kettle’s Cheyenne] village, knowing that the close proximity of their women and children, and their necessary exposure in case of conflict, would operate as a powerful argument in favor of peace, when the question of peace or war came to be discussed.” [7](emphasis added)
Troopers, initiating a firefight in the midst of hundreds – or thousands – of “corralled” noncombatants would necessarily expose to the risk of death or injury the “hostages” in the ensuing exchange of gunfire with the Indian defenders. [8] [9]
Custer demonstrated the value of a strategy that utilized “capture[d] women and children” to “neutralize” the Southern Cheyenne superiority in numbers at the Battle of the Washita in 1868. [10] General Phil Sheridan, commander of the Department of the Missouri, issued orders for the Washita River expedition, including the following: “…to destroy [Indian] villages and ponies, to kill or hang all warriors, and to bring back all woman and children [survivors].” [11]Author Michael Blake pointed out: “Unofficially, General Sheridan deemphasized the taking of [woman and children] prisoners” [12] and the regiment had “implied orders to kill everyone [during the attack].” [13]
The purpose of this “total war” strategy, [14] envisioned by Sheridan was to make “all segments of Indian society experience the horrors of war as fully as the warriors.” [15] The orders issued to Custer by General Sheridan in 1868 regarding the Washita River expedition were essentially the same “in tone and substance” as those issued by General Alfred Terry to Custer just days before the Seventh Cavalry arrived at the Little Bighorn River. [16] [17]
On June 25, 1876, Custer was faced with two potential developments if his command were discovered before they came within striking distance of the village. Sklenar posited these scenarios: “Facing a large military force, the Indians usually either broke their camp and scattered”, or alternately, “sent out fighting men to intercept and engage the foe…” before U.S. Army forces gained access to the village. [18]
If the first scenario developed and noncombatants dispersed, Custer’s force would be deprived of the advantage of the “close proximity of …women and children” [19] upon which the success of the operation “pivoted”, according to archeologist and historian Richard Allan Fox, Jr. [20]
The “scatteration” [21] of the approximately 4,000 – 5,000 women and children [22] would necessitate a commensurate troop “dispersal” to capture the fugitives, “…increasing [unit] vulnerability”, a dangerous development, exposing the fragmented cavalry forces to destruction in detail by Indian defenders. [23]
In the second scenario, Sioux and Cheyenne fighters would “intercept and engage” the regiment miles from the Indian encampment, denying Custer access to noncombatants, whose “…exposure in case of conflict” could not “operate” to achieve “peace." [24]
In fact, on June 17, a portion of the same Sioux and Cheyenne forces that would face Custer at the Little Bighorn had done precisely that, derailing the advance of General Crook’s column at the Battle of the Rosebud. [25]
This helps to explain the urgency with which Custer advanced toward the huge encampment on the afternoon of June 25; fearing “that the village would break up and flee in all directions”, [26] as described by historian Robert Utley, and depriving the Seventh Cavalry of a potent means of “neutralizing” Sioux and Cheyenne resistance. [27]
On Custer’s decision to advance up the bluffs and descend on the village from the east, Lieutenant Edward Godfrey of Company K surmised:
“[Custer] must …have counted on finding the squaws and children fleeing to the bluffs on the north, for in no other way do I account for his wide detour [east of the village]. He must have counted on Reno’s success, and fully expected the scatteration of the non-combatants with the pony herds. The probable attack upon the families and capture of the herds were in that event counted upon to strike consternation in the hearts of the warriors, and were elements for success upon which Custer counted.” [28]
The Sioux and Cheyenne fighters were acutely aware of the danger posed by the military engagement of noncombatants and that “…even a semblance of an attack on the women and children” would draw the warriors like a “magnet” back to the village, according to historian John S. Gray. [29] Such was their concern that merely a “feint” by Captain Yates’s E and F Companies at the mouth of Medicine Tail Coulee (Minneconjou Ford) caused hundreds of warriors to disengage from the Reno valley fight – foregoing the total destruction of Major Marcus Reno’s battalion - and return to deal with the threat to the village. [30]
Indian combatants monitoring the trooper’s movements discerned that “Custer and [Captain] Koegh were keeping an eye on the flight of the non-coms and intended to intercept them." [31] Their perception – correctly – was that the “soldiers from the north [Custer’s battalion] were “going after the women and children.” [32]
Custer proceeded with a wing of his battalion (Yates’s Troops E and F) north and opposite the Cheyenne circle at a crossing referred to by Fox as Ford D [33] which provided “access to the [women and children] fugitives." [34] Indeed, Yates’s force “posed an immediate threat to fugitive Indian families…” gathering at the north end of the huge encampment. [35]
Custer persisted in his efforts to “seize women and children” even as hundreds of warriors were massing around Keogh’s wing on the bluffs. [36] Yates’s wing, descending to the Little Bighorn River at Ford D encountered “light resistance”, [37] undetected by the Indian forces ascending the bluffs east of the village. [38]
Custer was almost within “striking distance of the refugees” before being repulsed by Indian defenders and forced back to Custer Ridge. [39] Or, as research by Fox suggests, deliberately marched with Yates’s wing back to Cemetery Ridge – not under duress by Indian defenders – to standby and await Captain Benteen’s battalion, before redeploying to the river to obtain hostages. [40]
Regardless of what actually transpired, the hostage or human shield “option” was no longer available after Keogh’s wing collapsed [41] and “any hope of victory” vanished. [42]
Captain Robert G. Carter, writing to author W.A. Graham in 1925, discussed the vulnerability of U.S. Army troops to interception and destruction by Indian defenders, outside the context of the Indian villages:
“Who knows that the same Indians [who destroyed Custer’s battalion] might have done to [the column commanded by] Gibbon and Terry, had not Custer attacked …on the 25th, instead [attacking on] the 26th…and Sioux and Cheyenne forces “moving toward [Terry and Gibbon], do the very same thing [to their column] – overwhelm them by force of numbers…” [43]
I'm not sure when the paragraph I deleted crept into the lead, but it has absolutely no place there whatsoever. Dr. Liberty's theory on Indian perception of LBH is just that - a theory, one of many, and of fairly recent vintage. It is treated in the article with appropriate and proportionate balance - but it is not a cornerstone of this article or of understanding LBH. Additionally, Liberty's theory is based on Thomas Marquis' work, which was derived from his years communicating with the Cheyenne in sign language. Marquis may (or may not) have correctly understood the Cheyenne perspective, but to suggest that that perspective extended itself to the Lakota as well is unwarranted: the extensive post-LBH interview sources indicate clearly that Lakota participants believed that they and not the Cheyenne were the targets of the military campaign. Further, the disposition of the three columns of Terry, Gibbon, and Crook and the orders to them make clear that for the U.S. Army, the primary objective was the return of very large numbers of Lakota to the reservation. As a summary of the whole article, the lead should not give undue weight to one speculative section therein. Sensei48 ( talk) 14:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Why are the NAs often referred to as hostiles throughout this article? It wasn't they who were marching on towards Washington or trying to force white settlers into predetermined parcels of lands. I mean the the last time Native Americans really could be called hostiles in the Americas was during either King Philip's War in the 17th century or Pontiac's Rebellion almost a century later. This article unintentionally uses the legitimacy of conquest to create an inherent bias in the reporting of history. The aggressor, in this case the US government, is fighting a people in the name of "pacification", the NAs were not the hostiles, the US military was.
It is presumptive to assume that just because time passes makes the the initial wrong right. The English name for the country of Wales originates comes from the [Anglo-Saxon]] words Walh (singular) and Walha (plural), meaning "foreigner" or "stranger". But the Welsh were the original Celtic Britons! After just a couple of centuries, it was the Anglo Saxon invaders and their subsequent generations who now had ascendency . It was the indigenous population who were now the "outsiders".
In that context, this article is inherently conched in the interpretations of European Americans, the usage of the term "hostiles" is testimony to that. Furthermore, the fact that no whites survived the assault on the village has led to a mythos about the battle despite the vast amount of primary accounts by NAs (source material that has largely gone unstudied until the later part of the 20th century). Even then, Native American testimony, is never stand alone, it must be supported with other "white" sources such as archaeological surveys.
As an independent, I can clearly see that this article has serious POV issues. In another way, it's like addressing the 9/11 article in terms of a group of heroic Islamic martyrs making a concerted effort against the United States in retaliation to events in the Middle East. If that is POV, why is this article not POV, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.18.190 ( talk) 12:30, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
1. The controversies regarding the battle are real and legitimate, however much in need of further sourcing they are. The quotation marks that crept into this section head - as if to question the legitimacy of these ongoing arguments - is sophomoric and inappropriate.
2. The long section just added today that was reverted does not meet Wiki standards for writing. It is additionally unsourced and misplaced.
3. I have restored the previous shortened version of the Marquis theory. This is one highly dubious theory to start with (Marquis himself communicated with the Cheyenne only in sign language, never learning the spoken language despite living among them for decades), and it was resurrected in 2006 by a single scholar. Dr. Liberty herself offered it as speculation, as a possibility. Its importance to the understanding of LBH is grossly disproportionate to the importance that the reverted edit gives it. Ant expanded discussion of it belongs in articles about the Cheyenne or The Great Sioux War, not here. Sensei48 ( talk) 23:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
It's hard to pin down all the names becase there were 25 of them, but the names in the article seem to be legitimate. An incmplete list can be found here: [5] Sensei48 ( talk) 09:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
It's occurred to me that the name "Custer's Last Stand" is a rare example of a battle named after the side that lost it, which is of course one reason why it's not exactly PC to use that name anymore, but it's still quite widely known, perhaps even now still more so than the accepted name which is the article's title. Are there many other famous battles or even wars commonly named after the losers? Most seem to be more neutrally named after the location where they were fought or the year(s) they happened, for obvious reasons. I wonder if this unusual fact is worth noting somewhere in the article, perhaps with some explanation of why and how it came to be called that in the first place, and when they decided to switch to the more neutral name. Lurlock ( talk) 16:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The author of "The Son of the Morning Star" is Evan S. Connell. It is incorrectly cited as Edwin S. Connell in the section "The Role of Noncombatants...." and in the footnotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.71.126 ( talk) 05:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Need to be re-uploaded in a different format (JPG or PNG), so thumbnail display won't be corrupted. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 21:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I was watching the History Channel, and they have a special on Frank Finkel, the supposed only survivor of Custer's Last stand. I did not find anything about this in the article, and was wondering if it should be included.
http://www.historynet.com/survivor-frank-finkels-lasting-stand.htm Pdhharris ( talk) 02:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)pdhharris
The History Channel is entertainment not a WP:RS. The Finkel program was inference based on dubious claims and no reliable sources. It was entertainment, not scholarship. Since the claim is so outlandish and unlikely, it would require two additions to be included in this article:
a. Reliable scholarly sourcing as to its contentions from sources outside of the program itself, which as noted is commercial entertainment, and
b. since it is a controversial assertion, it would need an equally sourced argument against the veracity of the Finkel story, per WP:Controversy. There are articles in print specifically debunking this tale. Sensei48 ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I did add a link to the Wiki article on Frank Finkel (since there is an article on him). I have seen this History Channel episode (and commiserate with others over the fact that they no longer engage in real history). The Finkel story brought me here to do further research on him and survivor stories, as well as other places like the Little Bighorn Association webpage (good site for debates about this and many other topics about LBH). I do not believe any of these survivor stories (they remind me too much of modern "Stolen Valor" stories we encounter, with someone feeling left out or envious of those who did serve so they have to create their own story to feel important). Just look at Brian Williams and his need to be part of the action, and I suspect Frank Finkel, sandwiched in age between earlier Civil War veterans and later Spanish-American War and WWI veterans felt he needed to be more important (PS his story is similar to another supposed survivor, Billy Heath, who at least shared the same name of someone who actually died at LBH and did not have to deal with the problematic issue of serving under an assumed name). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorkall ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I would dispute that. It was the Indians that ended up retreating after failing to defeat Reno and Benteen. I would call it a tactical Indian victory but strategic U.S. Army victory in the Sioux War of 1876-1877. Jewels845 ( talk) 23:10, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm not even going to bother Wikipedia is a useless pile of crap. It is a United states victory even if the modern politically correct don't think so. People assume the battle is only the 25th but fail to realize it was the whole action including the Indian retreat. Jewels845 ( talk) 03:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Where is Myles Keogh? Apparently, he had overall command of Companies L, C and I so he should be in that box. Also, Sitting Bull didn't actively participate in the battle so I think he should be removed. Apparently, Yates commanded Companies E and F so someone should add Keogh and Yates and remove Calhoun. Jewels845 ( talk) 00:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that statement is overlooking a lot of the participants who were in the battle. What about all the Crow and Arikara scouts who fought with the cavalry? It certainly wasn't a victory for them. Wouldn't something like "Decisive victory for Crazy Horse's and Sitting Bull's forces" be a bit more accurate. RG (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Don't even bother trying to edit this article. Its controlled by people with no life.Kind Regards Jewels845 ( talk) 03:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It was said Wild Bill Hickok was one of General Armstrong Custer's top military scouts and probably his most favorite in Kansas, while spying on Sioux raids and settlements. Wild Bill Hickok was in the 5th Cavalry at the time he was serving with General Custer in earlier years. Mystery surrounds his controversy saying if he was given an offer and agreed to ride with General Custer's company in the 7th Cavalry, he would be probably become more famous in a twin controversy, and closely related to the figures of Davy Crockett or Jim Bowie, tying the identical knot between Battle of Little Bighorn and the Battle of the Alamo.-- 74.34.83.89 ( talk) 00:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Charles Marion Russell - The Custer Fight (1903).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 26, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-06-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng { chat} 18:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
It "was the most famous action of the Great Sioux War of 1876..." and "It was an overwhelming victory for the Native American coalition over the U.S. Army 7th Cavalry." Please provide citations from appropriate sources, as required. Otherwise, very nice. 67.59.92.60 ( talk) 20:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thought this article - still online - might be of interest, but not sure where to put it in article.
Gallear reports this on the evidence for Henry rifles: "...the .44 rim-fire round fired from the Henry rifle is the most numerous Indian gun fired with almost as many individual guns identified as the Cavalry Springfield Model 1873 carbine.
http://www.westernerspublications.ltd.uk/CAGB%20Guns%20at%20the%20LBH.htm 67.59.92.60 ( talk) 18:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Done, as per your recommendations. Gallear's is still a great stand alone article, well worth reading (from the Custer Association of Great Britain). 36hourblock ( talk) 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Could someone knowledgable check this edit? Shenme ( talk) 02:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted a new section about the alleged survivors by new editor Eathaneharris after being contacted by Sensei48 on my talk page [6] regarding his concerns, which I largely share. I have notified the new editor on his talk page [7] to discuss my reversion here, and invite informal comments from all interested. Thanks. Jus da fax 07:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I personally like having a section like this (but understand it could be made into a separate topic linked to this article). I think it is useful for those who read about survivor stories or see things like the History Channel episode on Frank Finkel (which based more on speculation than historical facts). I moved/consolidated some info on survivors from the "Casualties" section to "Survivor Claims" where I believe it fits better, including info/pic of the 7th Cavalry mount Comanche (a legitimate survivor). Thorkall ( talk) 18:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, a decisive victory 'refers to a military victory in battle that definitively resolves the objective being fought over, ending one stage of the conflict and beginning another stage. Until a decisive victory is achieved, conflict over the competing objectives will continue.' I think it's pretty clear that given this definition, the Native Americans victory wasn't a decisive one. The battle was part of the Great Sioux War of 1876, which - as the article on Wikipedia states - was a United States victory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.144.240.177 ( talk) 11:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
From the section labeled "Custer's fight": "Cheyenne oral tradition credits Buffalo Calf Road Woman with striking the blow that knocked Custer off his horse before he died." Does this mean she hit him with a club or some other object, or does it mean she shot him amd, if so, with what -- a rifle, an arrow? I think this needs to be reworded. Risssa ( talk) 23:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The women...pushed the point of a sewing awl into each of his ears, into his head. This was done to improve his hearing, as it seemed he had not heard what our chiefs in the South had said when he smoked the pipe with them. They told him then that if ever afterward he should break that peace promise and should fight the Cheyennes, the Everywhere Spirit surely would cause him to be killed....I often have wondered if, when I was riding among the dead where he was lying, my pony may have kicked dirt upon his body." And I also located This source, which isn't as solid of an RS, but clearly indicates that he was shot in the classic fashion, by an Oglala fighter. (there's yet another theory that he killed himself). Montanabw (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
American civilians are listed in the section about non-combatant deaths, but not the wives and children of Chief Gall, widely regarded as the first victims of the day, shot in the initial US cavalry raid. Can we add these? I cannot find their names so maybe I could add them as "Two wives plus a daughter of Chief Gall." Andrew Riddles ( talk) 12:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariddles ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Did Crazy Horse actually say this at the start of this battle? I've seen some indications that maybe he did, but perhaps this is disputed? I'm trying to target the disambiguation page A good day to die, which currently links to Crazy Horse and Black Elk Speaks, but if it was said in the run up to the battle, I would say it should link here. Ego White Tray ( talk) 04:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
This is the first I've seen a Kindle loc in footnotes at Wiki. Donovan's A Terrible Glory.
Is there a simple way to convert to page numbers (and vice versa)? This website offers a convoluted means: http://www.bookmonk.com/labs/numbers.php
Thanx. 36hourblock ( talk) 19:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
An extensive section on "survivors" appeared recently; it had been offered as a proposed new article on two occasions by User: Ethaneharris but had not been accepted, with the recommendation that the material be added to this LBH article. Editor Ethaneharris has done so, and I believe that the work is commendable in its ambition, its adherence to Wiki citation protocols, and its efforts to supply sourcing for the information included.
I have trimmed the section and made other changes for a variety of reasons. First, the information here is properly a subsection of the already-existing "Battle Controversies,' not an entirely new section. Second, several parts of the edit are POV, inferential, or WP:OR, and I have removed these.
Third and most significantly, there are important problems with the sourcing. Graham and Brininstool are heavyweights, but Goldin is at best controversial. Moreover, Kuhlman, Nunnally, and Harris are not professional experts in the field and are self-published. I have substantiated Kuhlman's credentials in a source in the article, also here - [8]; Harris's field of published work is in theology, not history, and the Amazon bio so indicates [9]; his LBH book here is self-published, which almost always disqualifies it as RS. Nunnally was primarily an artist who was an amateur LBH enthusiast, [10]. I have changed the description in the section and tagged for reliability.
Whatever else The History Channel is, serious research and RS it is not. The Finkel program was typical: inferential, questionable, advancing a POV, and complete with re-enactments. It does not rise to the level of serious scholarship; the references left in the section untagged do.
Large early portions of the edit, including the Russell picture file, appear (with better sourcing) early in the article. Calamity Jane is notable for other reasons than an LBH claim. The other pictures do not add significantly to the article and tend to over-emphasize the importance of both their subjects and this section. Benteen might be added appropriately above, but there is no clear relevant connection between Benteen and survivor claims. Sensei48 ( talk) 17:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I have several problems with this section:
I was going to make these edits but knowing how hot this topic is I thought it best to start here. Cheers. Grahamboat ( talk) 22:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
To add to article: what the term "greasy grass" means. 173.89.236.187 ( talk) 02:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Lone Teepee#Proposed merge with Battle of the Little Big Horn proposed merging the Lone Teepee article into this one. The Lone Teepee only had a limited amount of information and consensus seem to be it should not a standalone article since its only significance was in regards to the Battle of the LBH (basically as a point of reference when discussing positions of units, separation of Custer and Reno). So I went ahead and merged the article (primarily so it would be here and the info would not be lost but it needs improvement, although I did find a few references in regards to it and added them). I set up a section for it, but I am not sure it is the best place for it. I have no problems with others making any modifications they feel are necessary, consolidate it into some other portion of the article, or if others think it is not significant enough be in this article or never should have been an article at all. Thorkall ( talk) 05:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
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There was a big reunion in 1910, hosted by President Taft. There was also a 50th anniversary reunion in 1926, when Custer's widow Libbie was still alive, but not prepared to visit the battlefield. She listened to the proceedings on the radio instead. Any details or audio/video-clips of these or any other commemorative events? Valetude ( talk) 20:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Starting on 21:34, 22 August 2020 and ending on 22:04, 22 August 2020, editor 77.101.187.179 made a series of edits that added the current "Nationality" breakdown under "Belligerents" in the top right table. Is any of this really necessary for the article? SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 17:54, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Black Elk was a notable participant in (though not really notable for his participation in) the day's events, but he was a 12-year-old boy, and not a leader. I think it's worth mentioning his presence and his first-hand account, but calling him a leader seems a real stretch. Dcs002 ( talk) 01:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
It's like reading a repetitive stream of conciousness where what has already been said is partially repeated again in another section only with a slightly different tone or focus. The article is comprehensive but it's a rambling mess where sections - particularly about what happened in the battle - contradict each other (I am presuming the editors of these paragraphs have a particular viewpoint they want to make) in stead of being written as rebuttals to previous statements. Or a sub section explains something but then there is a sub sub section to contradict the previous section - like the firearms sections. The repetition needs to be removed, things only have to be said once, and the current flip flop between contradictions needed to be change din favour of making it clear that are degrees of latitude in what might or might not happened ie the archaeological research is unimpeachable but how the interpretation can be, it should be written in the order of myth/story, might have, might not, then actual physical evidence that refutes what has been said. That's a completely back to front way doing things. A good editor who is knowledgeable of this topic needs to take the substance of this article and edit it. All the parts of there, they're just not working together at the moment. 146.200.202.126 ( talk) 12:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The photograph misidentified for nearly 100 years as Mitch Bouyer is actually A-ca-po-re, a Ute medicine man, musician, and jester. It was taken by Charles A. Nast c.1895-1899 at his Denver studio in a series of Ute and Jicarilla Apache portraits which reside in the Western History Department of the Denver Public Library. The original glass photonegative is housed in the Denver Public Library Special Collections - call number X-31214 - image file ZZR710031214. The misidentification of the photo appears to have first appeared in E. A. Brininstool's 1925 book Troopers with Custer; the provenance is given as Mitch Bouyer's daughter. 1902 postcard in the collection of the British Museum. 2005 account of discovering the deception by Mike Cowdrey. Of course, this calls into question the identification of the skull fragment found in the Deep Ravine area. On the upside, there's still a 1 in 210 chance that Bouyer's marker is in the right place. Frank Prchal ( talk) 23:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
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I have removed more blatant and unsupported POV statements from the article, as the edit history will show. I have not the time to go back and find out who is responsible, but it appears to be some editor not familiar with Wiki policies on sourcing, WP:OR, or POV statements. Since none of these removed statements are objectively verifiable, may I suggest that the editor(s) in question consider starting a blog to support their POV and refrain from editing such statements into an encyclopedia article that strives for objectivity.
Additionally, editors should review the history opf this article and consider the absolute painstaking efforts that have been made to keep it objective and balanced - and not attempt to make WP:OR and WP:POV alterations that advance a personal and controversial statement as a fact. Blogs are the proper medium for such writing. Sensei48 ( talk) 03:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Realizing that he had found the hammer that was going to probably strike through the village toward's Reno's anvil, Gall rode southwest, crossing back across the Little Bighorn River and warned the hundreds of warriors who had just returned from their repulse of Reno of this new threat from the Northeast.
[Chief Gall|Gall]]. He had crossed the Little Bighorn and had ridden up to the ridgeline south east of what is today called Sharpshooters Ridge. From there, he had ridden stealthily to see Custer's forces concealed at that point down in Medicine Tail Coulee. Gall claimed to have ridden southwest, crossing back across the Little Bighorn River to warn the hundreds of warriors who had just returned from their repulse of Reno of this new threat from the Northeast.
1) My initial comment on 58's page and 58's response:
Hi 58!
I appreciate the energy that your current edits display and your passion for accuracy on LBH - and your note on my Talk page. I do in fact read a LOT more than edit summaries and have put more time in on this article (as referee as well as editor/writer) than nearly any other editor.
Perhaps you misunderstood MY edit summary, and you apparently do not see why your edit of Custer's division of command is seriously misplaced in this article. This is a matter of rhetoric and chronology. The rhetorical problem is that by placing the division of GAC's command where you do, in the paragraph at the outset of the campaign, prior to June 17 Rosebud, the inescapable implication is that this division was made at that time by Terry or under his supervision.
Your clear expertise about the battle tells me that you know that this was not so - that the division of the 7th Cavalry into three battalions was a controversial command decision made by GAC immediately prior to the battle.
Certainly the division of the 7th into battalions (or detachments, as the article now states) needs to be elucidated, but not in that paragraph. Look again, please - every other unit described in that paragraph left their respective forts in the configurations there presented. Putting GAC's division of June 25th should not be in the same paragraph with Terry's columns leaving Ft. Lincoln on May 29.
We have a dozen or so other editors and admins working consistently on this article, and rather than go to the three revert situation, perhaps we could ask someone else to take a look at the placement and comment. Regards Sensei48 (talk) 09:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
4) The interchange subsequent to the above
This is copied from my Talk page User:Sensei48, which I have used as a discussion log since User58 has deleted my response to him at one critical point. Sensei48 ( talk) 08:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Comment in response to an alert at WT:MHCOORD#Battle of the Little Bighorn: To assist editors that may be unfamiliar with Wikipedia, one of our core principles is that we rely only on reliable secondary sources for article content. For an article such as this, these will be published, peer-reviewed historical works by reputable experts in the field. The ideal Wikipedia article is an originally-written distillation of unoriginal material, so in one sense we need no subject expertise as long as we have access to appropriate sources. Where expertise is helpful is in knowing where to find such sources and in identifying gaps in the subject coverage or assigning appropriate weight to historians' differing opinions; in other words, highlighting the nuances that a layman might be unaware of. Where sources differ, the article should reflect that. There are a number of ways to do this: in the text itself by attributing opinion where sources are roughly equal in ther weight (eg "According to historian X, .... However, historian Y takes the view that..."); using footnotes for a significant minority opinion; following the perponderant mainstream view in the article and dedicating a separate section, perhaps towards the end, to discussing the historical analysis (see Operation Epsom for an example of this); or any combination of the above. The only thing there's absolutely no room for is personal interpretation or synthesis - what Wikipedia calls original research. If it's not backed up by a source, it shouldn't be in the article. I hope this helps, EyeSerene talk 11:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
::::Typically you are one of these people more interested in Wikipedia policy than its article contents. So, whenever you are pointed in the right direction you take it as a personal insult, and so you scream incivility. Been there, done that.
By this time Indians had been seen and it was certain that we could not suprise them, and it was determined to move at once to the attack. Previous to this, no division of the regiment had been made since the order had been issued on the Yellowstone annuling wing and battalion organizations, but Custer informed me that he would assign commands on the march.
I was ordered by Lieut. W. W. Cooke, adjutant, to assume command of Companies M, A, and G; Captain Benteen of Companies H, D, and K. Custer retained C, E, F, I, and L under his immediate command, and Company B, Captain McDougall, in rear of the pack- train.
All of the above notwithstanding, I restored a short section on the makeup of the 7th deleted in the latest wave of making this article longer and more detailed (and imo obscuring what happened, not explaining it better--but that's another story for another day), as significant to understanding why and how the Army troops performed on June 25.-- Reedmalloy ( talk) 14:04, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Who's this Thom Hatch guy? His Wiki page was full of tons of flowery bs that I removed. There was even a claim that he used to write for national publications, but nothing showed up in google scholar besides a few of his books, [3] and the most notable thing about him in a google news search is that at some point a Kansas paper claims he invented a card game with 60 cards. Looks to me like it fails wp:RS. NJGW ( talk) 04:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Our friend DOES make a good point that overland movement of men and animals in 1876 had changed little since Roman times. Certain things stay the same. I've moved deliberately overland (up a ridge and down a ridge) through the forests of Central Norway as US Marine Corps artillery officer (forward observer) assigned to an infantry company in 1980. I can tell you that with the exception of our radios and more modern weapons we moved no differently than a Roman legion through the forests of Germany or a Civil War infantry company moving through the mountains of Tennessee - Slow snaking lines, no vehicles, just men carrying all then needed on their backs. Let's not be so dismissive of points off view that can be backed up by supporting evidence/docs. Thanks! SimonATL ( talk) 17:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I moved the second and third paragraphs of the section titled "The aftermath" (3.6) up to the intro part of the section "Custer's Fight" (3.2, and slightly into 3.2.1). I made slight alterations to the paragraphs, moved some stuff around. There are several good reasons for this move, the simplest one being that mostly what's known of Custer's fight comes from its immediate aftermath, so it makes sense to start there.
Other reasons have to do with readability. "The aftermath" included a good, brief narrative treatment of a verifiable (as best as can be hoped) sequence of events that is better suited to be a summary of "Custer's fight," before subsections break the issue down into further detail. You need a basic framework to build on before you can start enumerating the possibilities. The article, as it was, began delving into conflicting theories and weighing the various circumstances before first providing a description of what is known to have happened. There was analysis of the wounds on Custer's body before any straightforward declaration of Custer's death (except in the very brief summary at the beginning of the article), and other instances of putting the cart before the horse. It was sort of unreadable, and I hope you'll agree it's now slightly less so. Still some more to do.
Also, it's only logical to continue from the account of Reno and Benteen into their discovery of what happened to Custer, because it's from them that we first knew anything, and so it nicely wraps up the contemporaneous narrative begun for the reader in the immediately preceding section. For instance, it simply makes sense to first describe Custer's death in the context of how it was learned by his contemporaries in the US Army.
The transplanted section has an additional benefit in that it happens to summarize what Curley, Custer's Crow scout, said about the battle, which apparently is the source for the most widespread popular understanding of what might have happened. Starting early with some recognition of the most familiar point of view is highly desirable, I think.
I noticed also that some of the references appear to be highly unorthodox, e.g., just "Reno Court of Inquiry" or "see above" I don't think are exactly adherent to Wikipedia's guidelines on footnoting. Other places where it strongly seemed to me that there should be sources, didn't have them (see the stuff from "The aftermath"). In spite of this, I have retained everything. Every clause is still there, if possibly slightly altered for the sake of fitting. This is far from my area of specialty, so I hope someone else can clean up the references.
I ran into places where the article contradicts itself in minor ways, such as carefully pointing out in one section that there are multiple possibilities for a certain scenario, while relying on one of those possibilities for a statement of fact in another. This occurred on the descriptions of Custer's route between the "Custer's Fight" and "The aftermath" sections, and on the possible sources of gunfire heard by Reno and Benteen's men on the bluffs. Cleaned up a little.
Good writing throughout the article, with loads of good info, but it could use some application of structure. I'm not sure that everything is in its right place yet. —
67.61.67.84 (
talk)
22:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
This talk page is 158kb long...perhaps its time to archive it? Smallman12q ( talk) 03:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
i changed the results from decisive victory to major victory, because while it was a large victory the native americans were eventually defeated after the battle. 68.206.123.207 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC).
I've reverted a well-intended and good faith edit regarding the action toward the end of the battle around Last Stand Hill. It is a good general summary on one POV regarding the battle, but it is completely unsourced. Further, even were it sourced, it would stand in contradiction on key points in the previous edit, which though equally unsourced was arrived at by a consensus of editors. These two edits can co-exist if properly sourced and melded as a presentation of a controversy - how long did the battle last? Only SOME NA accounts have it lasting as briefly as a man's dinner - others say 20 minutes - others say an hour. The simple fact is that no one know exactly what happened to GAC's detachment - or there wouldn't be a cottage industry of books trying to explain what did happen. Speculation should be presented as such.
I'm also removing a sentence I notice has crept into the lead - the unsourced POV statement that LBH caused Americans to re-assess the fighting capabilities of NA. That is an unfounded assertion from a limited number of authors. 19th century Americans frequently hated and feared NA - and not because they thought that NA couldn't fight. There were just way too many battles and encounters on both sides of the Mississippi for all but the most benighted to think that. The shock was rather from the perceived invincibility of GAC, a myth he helped to propound and which he originated during the Civil War. Sensei48 ( talk) 23:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
I think one has to take in the topography of the area. I get the idae from reading some of the comments in your detractors. The LAND in that area determined how, when and where the various columns would have arrived. It would also determine how the indians left and how they could be persued. Litle Bigman???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.176.168.176 ( talk) 04:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The article has a photo of a collection of horse bones on the battlefield. Anyone know what happened to these animal bones? Tragic romance ( talk) 21:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
There are currently two sections ("Number of Native American combatants" and "Battle controversies") full of unreferenced opinion constituting original research, some of it dating from June 2009. I'll delete this stuff in a week or two if it's not substantiated by references before then. -- btphelps ( talk) ( contribs) 19:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted about 80% of the edits to the new section about non-combatants made by editor Califa22651 and clearly need to explain why. The section was admirably sourced and excellently written, and a discussion of this nature was long overdue (though it should likely be placed earlier in the article). However, the vast majority of this section is not relevant to an encyclopedia article - it reads more like a scholarly article or a chapter from a book and is clearly of value in either of those contexts.
What is relevant to this article is only the material that pertains directly to LBH, and that is the material that I have left in as the new section. Much of what I reverted may well be relevant in the articles Battle of the Washita or Battle of North Fork, and I hope editor Califa22651 will consider adding it there, with the removal of POV and speculative statements. Sensei48 ( talk) 20:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This site has been subjected to major re-editing - mostly deletions - without comment; specifically the removal of facts providing historical background and context. If the editor can justify these deletions, please to so in the discussion section; or provide addition information that contributes to a fuller understanding of the antecendents that shaped these events.
Here is the essay I posted on June 1, 2010 before the deletions were made:
The Role of Indian Noncombatants in Custer’s Strategy
The Sioux and Northern Cheyenne encampment on the Little Big Horn River comprised a key component in Lt. Colonel George A. Custer’s field strategy at the Battle of the Little Big Horn: Indian noncombatants.
Women, children, the elderly or disabled [1]were targeted for capture to serve as hostages and human shields. [2] Custer’s battalions intended to “ride into the camp and secure noncombatant hostages” [3] and “forc[e] the warriors to surrender”. [4] Author Edwin S. Connell observed that if Custer could occupy the village, before widespread resistance developed, the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors “would be obliged to surrender, because if the started to fight, they would be shooting their own families.” [5] [6]
If the military logic for tactical use of human shields is not self-evident, Custer provided them in his book My Life on the Plains, published just two years before the Battle of the Little Big Horn:
“Indians contemplating a battle, either offensive or defensive, are always anxious to have their women and children removed from all danger…For this reason I decided to locate our [military] camp as close as convenient to [Chief Black Kettle’s Cheyenne] village, knowing that the close proximity of their women and children, and their necessary exposure in case of conflict, would operate as a powerful argument in favor of peace, when the question of peace or war came to be discussed.” [7](emphasis added)
Troopers, initiating a firefight in the midst of hundreds – or thousands – of “corralled” noncombatants would necessarily expose to the risk of death or injury the “hostages” in the ensuing exchange of gunfire with the Indian defenders. [8] [9]
Custer demonstrated the value of a strategy that utilized “capture[d] women and children” to “neutralize” the Southern Cheyenne superiority in numbers at the Battle of the Washita in 1868. [10] General Phil Sheridan, commander of the Department of the Missouri, issued orders for the Washita River expedition, including the following: “…to destroy [Indian] villages and ponies, to kill or hang all warriors, and to bring back all woman and children [survivors].” [11]Author Michael Blake pointed out: “Unofficially, General Sheridan deemphasized the taking of [woman and children] prisoners” [12] and the regiment had “implied orders to kill everyone [during the attack].” [13]
The purpose of this “total war” strategy, [14] envisioned by Sheridan was to make “all segments of Indian society experience the horrors of war as fully as the warriors.” [15] The orders issued to Custer by General Sheridan in 1868 regarding the Washita River expedition were essentially the same “in tone and substance” as those issued by General Alfred Terry to Custer just days before the Seventh Cavalry arrived at the Little Bighorn River. [16] [17]
On June 25, 1876, Custer was faced with two potential developments if his command were discovered before they came within striking distance of the village. Sklenar posited these scenarios: “Facing a large military force, the Indians usually either broke their camp and scattered”, or alternately, “sent out fighting men to intercept and engage the foe…” before U.S. Army forces gained access to the village. [18]
If the first scenario developed and noncombatants dispersed, Custer’s force would be deprived of the advantage of the “close proximity of …women and children” [19] upon which the success of the operation “pivoted”, according to archeologist and historian Richard Allan Fox, Jr. [20]
The “scatteration” [21] of the approximately 4,000 – 5,000 women and children [22] would necessitate a commensurate troop “dispersal” to capture the fugitives, “…increasing [unit] vulnerability”, a dangerous development, exposing the fragmented cavalry forces to destruction in detail by Indian defenders. [23]
In the second scenario, Sioux and Cheyenne fighters would “intercept and engage” the regiment miles from the Indian encampment, denying Custer access to noncombatants, whose “…exposure in case of conflict” could not “operate” to achieve “peace." [24]
In fact, on June 17, a portion of the same Sioux and Cheyenne forces that would face Custer at the Little Bighorn had done precisely that, derailing the advance of General Crook’s column at the Battle of the Rosebud. [25]
This helps to explain the urgency with which Custer advanced toward the huge encampment on the afternoon of June 25; fearing “that the village would break up and flee in all directions”, [26] as described by historian Robert Utley, and depriving the Seventh Cavalry of a potent means of “neutralizing” Sioux and Cheyenne resistance. [27]
On Custer’s decision to advance up the bluffs and descend on the village from the east, Lieutenant Edward Godfrey of Company K surmised:
“[Custer] must …have counted on finding the squaws and children fleeing to the bluffs on the north, for in no other way do I account for his wide detour [east of the village]. He must have counted on Reno’s success, and fully expected the scatteration of the non-combatants with the pony herds. The probable attack upon the families and capture of the herds were in that event counted upon to strike consternation in the hearts of the warriors, and were elements for success upon which Custer counted.” [28]
The Sioux and Cheyenne fighters were acutely aware of the danger posed by the military engagement of noncombatants and that “…even a semblance of an attack on the women and children” would draw the warriors like a “magnet” back to the village, according to historian John S. Gray. [29] Such was their concern that merely a “feint” by Captain Yates’s E and F Companies at the mouth of Medicine Tail Coulee (Minneconjou Ford) caused hundreds of warriors to disengage from the Reno valley fight – foregoing the total destruction of Major Marcus Reno’s battalion - and return to deal with the threat to the village. [30]
Indian combatants monitoring the trooper’s movements discerned that “Custer and [Captain] Koegh were keeping an eye on the flight of the non-coms and intended to intercept them." [31] Their perception – correctly – was that the “soldiers from the north [Custer’s battalion] were “going after the women and children.” [32]
Custer proceeded with a wing of his battalion (Yates’s Troops E and F) north and opposite the Cheyenne circle at a crossing referred to by Fox as Ford D [33] which provided “access to the [women and children] fugitives." [34] Indeed, Yates’s force “posed an immediate threat to fugitive Indian families…” gathering at the north end of the huge encampment. [35]
Custer persisted in his efforts to “seize women and children” even as hundreds of warriors were massing around Keogh’s wing on the bluffs. [36] Yates’s wing, descending to the Little Bighorn River at Ford D encountered “light resistance”, [37] undetected by the Indian forces ascending the bluffs east of the village. [38]
Custer was almost within “striking distance of the refugees” before being repulsed by Indian defenders and forced back to Custer Ridge. [39] Or, as research by Fox suggests, deliberately marched with Yates’s wing back to Cemetery Ridge – not under duress by Indian defenders – to standby and await Captain Benteen’s battalion, before redeploying to the river to obtain hostages. [40]
Regardless of what actually transpired, the hostage or human shield “option” was no longer available after Keogh’s wing collapsed [41] and “any hope of victory” vanished. [42]
Captain Robert G. Carter, writing to author W.A. Graham in 1925, discussed the vulnerability of U.S. Army troops to interception and destruction by Indian defenders, outside the context of the Indian villages:
“Who knows that the same Indians [who destroyed Custer’s battalion] might have done to [the column commanded by] Gibbon and Terry, had not Custer attacked …on the 25th, instead [attacking on] the 26th…and Sioux and Cheyenne forces “moving toward [Terry and Gibbon], do the very same thing [to their column] – overwhelm them by force of numbers…” [43]
I'm not sure when the paragraph I deleted crept into the lead, but it has absolutely no place there whatsoever. Dr. Liberty's theory on Indian perception of LBH is just that - a theory, one of many, and of fairly recent vintage. It is treated in the article with appropriate and proportionate balance - but it is not a cornerstone of this article or of understanding LBH. Additionally, Liberty's theory is based on Thomas Marquis' work, which was derived from his years communicating with the Cheyenne in sign language. Marquis may (or may not) have correctly understood the Cheyenne perspective, but to suggest that that perspective extended itself to the Lakota as well is unwarranted: the extensive post-LBH interview sources indicate clearly that Lakota participants believed that they and not the Cheyenne were the targets of the military campaign. Further, the disposition of the three columns of Terry, Gibbon, and Crook and the orders to them make clear that for the U.S. Army, the primary objective was the return of very large numbers of Lakota to the reservation. As a summary of the whole article, the lead should not give undue weight to one speculative section therein. Sensei48 ( talk) 14:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Why are the NAs often referred to as hostiles throughout this article? It wasn't they who were marching on towards Washington or trying to force white settlers into predetermined parcels of lands. I mean the the last time Native Americans really could be called hostiles in the Americas was during either King Philip's War in the 17th century or Pontiac's Rebellion almost a century later. This article unintentionally uses the legitimacy of conquest to create an inherent bias in the reporting of history. The aggressor, in this case the US government, is fighting a people in the name of "pacification", the NAs were not the hostiles, the US military was.
It is presumptive to assume that just because time passes makes the the initial wrong right. The English name for the country of Wales originates comes from the [Anglo-Saxon]] words Walh (singular) and Walha (plural), meaning "foreigner" or "stranger". But the Welsh were the original Celtic Britons! After just a couple of centuries, it was the Anglo Saxon invaders and their subsequent generations who now had ascendency . It was the indigenous population who were now the "outsiders".
In that context, this article is inherently conched in the interpretations of European Americans, the usage of the term "hostiles" is testimony to that. Furthermore, the fact that no whites survived the assault on the village has led to a mythos about the battle despite the vast amount of primary accounts by NAs (source material that has largely gone unstudied until the later part of the 20th century). Even then, Native American testimony, is never stand alone, it must be supported with other "white" sources such as archaeological surveys.
As an independent, I can clearly see that this article has serious POV issues. In another way, it's like addressing the 9/11 article in terms of a group of heroic Islamic martyrs making a concerted effort against the United States in retaliation to events in the Middle East. If that is POV, why is this article not POV, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.18.190 ( talk) 12:30, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
1. The controversies regarding the battle are real and legitimate, however much in need of further sourcing they are. The quotation marks that crept into this section head - as if to question the legitimacy of these ongoing arguments - is sophomoric and inappropriate.
2. The long section just added today that was reverted does not meet Wiki standards for writing. It is additionally unsourced and misplaced.
3. I have restored the previous shortened version of the Marquis theory. This is one highly dubious theory to start with (Marquis himself communicated with the Cheyenne only in sign language, never learning the spoken language despite living among them for decades), and it was resurrected in 2006 by a single scholar. Dr. Liberty herself offered it as speculation, as a possibility. Its importance to the understanding of LBH is grossly disproportionate to the importance that the reverted edit gives it. Ant expanded discussion of it belongs in articles about the Cheyenne or The Great Sioux War, not here. Sensei48 ( talk) 23:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
It's hard to pin down all the names becase there were 25 of them, but the names in the article seem to be legitimate. An incmplete list can be found here: [5] Sensei48 ( talk) 09:17, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
It's occurred to me that the name "Custer's Last Stand" is a rare example of a battle named after the side that lost it, which is of course one reason why it's not exactly PC to use that name anymore, but it's still quite widely known, perhaps even now still more so than the accepted name which is the article's title. Are there many other famous battles or even wars commonly named after the losers? Most seem to be more neutrally named after the location where they were fought or the year(s) they happened, for obvious reasons. I wonder if this unusual fact is worth noting somewhere in the article, perhaps with some explanation of why and how it came to be called that in the first place, and when they decided to switch to the more neutral name. Lurlock ( talk) 16:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
The author of "The Son of the Morning Star" is Evan S. Connell. It is incorrectly cited as Edwin S. Connell in the section "The Role of Noncombatants...." and in the footnotes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.71.126 ( talk) 05:46, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Need to be re-uploaded in a different format (JPG or PNG), so thumbnail display won't be corrupted. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 21:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I was watching the History Channel, and they have a special on Frank Finkel, the supposed only survivor of Custer's Last stand. I did not find anything about this in the article, and was wondering if it should be included.
http://www.historynet.com/survivor-frank-finkels-lasting-stand.htm Pdhharris ( talk) 02:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)pdhharris
The History Channel is entertainment not a WP:RS. The Finkel program was inference based on dubious claims and no reliable sources. It was entertainment, not scholarship. Since the claim is so outlandish and unlikely, it would require two additions to be included in this article:
a. Reliable scholarly sourcing as to its contentions from sources outside of the program itself, which as noted is commercial entertainment, and
b. since it is a controversial assertion, it would need an equally sourced argument against the veracity of the Finkel story, per WP:Controversy. There are articles in print specifically debunking this tale. Sensei48 ( talk) 20:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
I did add a link to the Wiki article on Frank Finkel (since there is an article on him). I have seen this History Channel episode (and commiserate with others over the fact that they no longer engage in real history). The Finkel story brought me here to do further research on him and survivor stories, as well as other places like the Little Bighorn Association webpage (good site for debates about this and many other topics about LBH). I do not believe any of these survivor stories (they remind me too much of modern "Stolen Valor" stories we encounter, with someone feeling left out or envious of those who did serve so they have to create their own story to feel important). Just look at Brian Williams and his need to be part of the action, and I suspect Frank Finkel, sandwiched in age between earlier Civil War veterans and later Spanish-American War and WWI veterans felt he needed to be more important (PS his story is similar to another supposed survivor, Billy Heath, who at least shared the same name of someone who actually died at LBH and did not have to deal with the problematic issue of serving under an assumed name). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorkall ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I would dispute that. It was the Indians that ended up retreating after failing to defeat Reno and Benteen. I would call it a tactical Indian victory but strategic U.S. Army victory in the Sioux War of 1876-1877. Jewels845 ( talk) 23:10, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm not even going to bother Wikipedia is a useless pile of crap. It is a United states victory even if the modern politically correct don't think so. People assume the battle is only the 25th but fail to realize it was the whole action including the Indian retreat. Jewels845 ( talk) 03:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Where is Myles Keogh? Apparently, he had overall command of Companies L, C and I so he should be in that box. Also, Sitting Bull didn't actively participate in the battle so I think he should be removed. Apparently, Yates commanded Companies E and F so someone should add Keogh and Yates and remove Calhoun. Jewels845 ( talk) 00:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that statement is overlooking a lot of the participants who were in the battle. What about all the Crow and Arikara scouts who fought with the cavalry? It certainly wasn't a victory for them. Wouldn't something like "Decisive victory for Crazy Horse's and Sitting Bull's forces" be a bit more accurate. RG (talk) 02:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Don't even bother trying to edit this article. Its controlled by people with no life.Kind Regards Jewels845 ( talk) 03:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
It was said Wild Bill Hickok was one of General Armstrong Custer's top military scouts and probably his most favorite in Kansas, while spying on Sioux raids and settlements. Wild Bill Hickok was in the 5th Cavalry at the time he was serving with General Custer in earlier years. Mystery surrounds his controversy saying if he was given an offer and agreed to ride with General Custer's company in the 7th Cavalry, he would be probably become more famous in a twin controversy, and closely related to the figures of Davy Crockett or Jim Bowie, tying the identical knot between Battle of Little Bighorn and the Battle of the Alamo.-- 74.34.83.89 ( talk) 00:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Charles Marion Russell - The Custer Fight (1903).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 26, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-06-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! — howcheng { chat} 18:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
It "was the most famous action of the Great Sioux War of 1876..." and "It was an overwhelming victory for the Native American coalition over the U.S. Army 7th Cavalry." Please provide citations from appropriate sources, as required. Otherwise, very nice. 67.59.92.60 ( talk) 20:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Thought this article - still online - might be of interest, but not sure where to put it in article.
Gallear reports this on the evidence for Henry rifles: "...the .44 rim-fire round fired from the Henry rifle is the most numerous Indian gun fired with almost as many individual guns identified as the Cavalry Springfield Model 1873 carbine.
http://www.westernerspublications.ltd.uk/CAGB%20Guns%20at%20the%20LBH.htm 67.59.92.60 ( talk) 18:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Done, as per your recommendations. Gallear's is still a great stand alone article, well worth reading (from the Custer Association of Great Britain). 36hourblock ( talk) 19:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Could someone knowledgable check this edit? Shenme ( talk) 02:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted a new section about the alleged survivors by new editor Eathaneharris after being contacted by Sensei48 on my talk page [6] regarding his concerns, which I largely share. I have notified the new editor on his talk page [7] to discuss my reversion here, and invite informal comments from all interested. Thanks. Jus da fax 07:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I personally like having a section like this (but understand it could be made into a separate topic linked to this article). I think it is useful for those who read about survivor stories or see things like the History Channel episode on Frank Finkel (which based more on speculation than historical facts). I moved/consolidated some info on survivors from the "Casualties" section to "Survivor Claims" where I believe it fits better, including info/pic of the 7th Cavalry mount Comanche (a legitimate survivor). Thorkall ( talk) 18:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, a decisive victory 'refers to a military victory in battle that definitively resolves the objective being fought over, ending one stage of the conflict and beginning another stage. Until a decisive victory is achieved, conflict over the competing objectives will continue.' I think it's pretty clear that given this definition, the Native Americans victory wasn't a decisive one. The battle was part of the Great Sioux War of 1876, which - as the article on Wikipedia states - was a United States victory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.144.240.177 ( talk) 11:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
From the section labeled "Custer's fight": "Cheyenne oral tradition credits Buffalo Calf Road Woman with striking the blow that knocked Custer off his horse before he died." Does this mean she hit him with a club or some other object, or does it mean she shot him amd, if so, with what -- a rifle, an arrow? I think this needs to be reworded. Risssa ( talk) 23:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The women...pushed the point of a sewing awl into each of his ears, into his head. This was done to improve his hearing, as it seemed he had not heard what our chiefs in the South had said when he smoked the pipe with them. They told him then that if ever afterward he should break that peace promise and should fight the Cheyennes, the Everywhere Spirit surely would cause him to be killed....I often have wondered if, when I was riding among the dead where he was lying, my pony may have kicked dirt upon his body." And I also located This source, which isn't as solid of an RS, but clearly indicates that he was shot in the classic fashion, by an Oglala fighter. (there's yet another theory that he killed himself). Montanabw (talk) 22:36, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
American civilians are listed in the section about non-combatant deaths, but not the wives and children of Chief Gall, widely regarded as the first victims of the day, shot in the initial US cavalry raid. Can we add these? I cannot find their names so maybe I could add them as "Two wives plus a daughter of Chief Gall." Andrew Riddles ( talk) 12:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariddles ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Did Crazy Horse actually say this at the start of this battle? I've seen some indications that maybe he did, but perhaps this is disputed? I'm trying to target the disambiguation page A good day to die, which currently links to Crazy Horse and Black Elk Speaks, but if it was said in the run up to the battle, I would say it should link here. Ego White Tray ( talk) 04:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
This is the first I've seen a Kindle loc in footnotes at Wiki. Donovan's A Terrible Glory.
Is there a simple way to convert to page numbers (and vice versa)? This website offers a convoluted means: http://www.bookmonk.com/labs/numbers.php
Thanx. 36hourblock ( talk) 19:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
An extensive section on "survivors" appeared recently; it had been offered as a proposed new article on two occasions by User: Ethaneharris but had not been accepted, with the recommendation that the material be added to this LBH article. Editor Ethaneharris has done so, and I believe that the work is commendable in its ambition, its adherence to Wiki citation protocols, and its efforts to supply sourcing for the information included.
I have trimmed the section and made other changes for a variety of reasons. First, the information here is properly a subsection of the already-existing "Battle Controversies,' not an entirely new section. Second, several parts of the edit are POV, inferential, or WP:OR, and I have removed these.
Third and most significantly, there are important problems with the sourcing. Graham and Brininstool are heavyweights, but Goldin is at best controversial. Moreover, Kuhlman, Nunnally, and Harris are not professional experts in the field and are self-published. I have substantiated Kuhlman's credentials in a source in the article, also here - [8]; Harris's field of published work is in theology, not history, and the Amazon bio so indicates [9]; his LBH book here is self-published, which almost always disqualifies it as RS. Nunnally was primarily an artist who was an amateur LBH enthusiast, [10]. I have changed the description in the section and tagged for reliability.
Whatever else The History Channel is, serious research and RS it is not. The Finkel program was typical: inferential, questionable, advancing a POV, and complete with re-enactments. It does not rise to the level of serious scholarship; the references left in the section untagged do.
Large early portions of the edit, including the Russell picture file, appear (with better sourcing) early in the article. Calamity Jane is notable for other reasons than an LBH claim. The other pictures do not add significantly to the article and tend to over-emphasize the importance of both their subjects and this section. Benteen might be added appropriately above, but there is no clear relevant connection between Benteen and survivor claims. Sensei48 ( talk) 17:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I have several problems with this section:
I was going to make these edits but knowing how hot this topic is I thought it best to start here. Cheers. Grahamboat ( talk) 22:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
To add to article: what the term "greasy grass" means. 173.89.236.187 ( talk) 02:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Talk:Lone Teepee#Proposed merge with Battle of the Little Big Horn proposed merging the Lone Teepee article into this one. The Lone Teepee only had a limited amount of information and consensus seem to be it should not a standalone article since its only significance was in regards to the Battle of the LBH (basically as a point of reference when discussing positions of units, separation of Custer and Reno). So I went ahead and merged the article (primarily so it would be here and the info would not be lost but it needs improvement, although I did find a few references in regards to it and added them). I set up a section for it, but I am not sure it is the best place for it. I have no problems with others making any modifications they feel are necessary, consolidate it into some other portion of the article, or if others think it is not significant enough be in this article or never should have been an article at all. Thorkall ( talk) 05:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
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There was a big reunion in 1910, hosted by President Taft. There was also a 50th anniversary reunion in 1926, when Custer's widow Libbie was still alive, but not prepared to visit the battlefield. She listened to the proceedings on the radio instead. Any details or audio/video-clips of these or any other commemorative events? Valetude ( talk) 20:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Starting on 21:34, 22 August 2020 and ending on 22:04, 22 August 2020, editor 77.101.187.179 made a series of edits that added the current "Nationality" breakdown under "Belligerents" in the top right table. Is any of this really necessary for the article? SchuttenbachPercival ( talk) 17:54, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Black Elk was a notable participant in (though not really notable for his participation in) the day's events, but he was a 12-year-old boy, and not a leader. I think it's worth mentioning his presence and his first-hand account, but calling him a leader seems a real stretch. Dcs002 ( talk) 01:10, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
It's like reading a repetitive stream of conciousness where what has already been said is partially repeated again in another section only with a slightly different tone or focus. The article is comprehensive but it's a rambling mess where sections - particularly about what happened in the battle - contradict each other (I am presuming the editors of these paragraphs have a particular viewpoint they want to make) in stead of being written as rebuttals to previous statements. Or a sub section explains something but then there is a sub sub section to contradict the previous section - like the firearms sections. The repetition needs to be removed, things only have to be said once, and the current flip flop between contradictions needed to be change din favour of making it clear that are degrees of latitude in what might or might not happened ie the archaeological research is unimpeachable but how the interpretation can be, it should be written in the order of myth/story, might have, might not, then actual physical evidence that refutes what has been said. That's a completely back to front way doing things. A good editor who is knowledgeable of this topic needs to take the substance of this article and edit it. All the parts of there, they're just not working together at the moment. 146.200.202.126 ( talk) 12:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The photograph misidentified for nearly 100 years as Mitch Bouyer is actually A-ca-po-re, a Ute medicine man, musician, and jester. It was taken by Charles A. Nast c.1895-1899 at his Denver studio in a series of Ute and Jicarilla Apache portraits which reside in the Western History Department of the Denver Public Library. The original glass photonegative is housed in the Denver Public Library Special Collections - call number X-31214 - image file ZZR710031214. The misidentification of the photo appears to have first appeared in E. A. Brininstool's 1925 book Troopers with Custer; the provenance is given as Mitch Bouyer's daughter. 1902 postcard in the collection of the British Museum. 2005 account of discovering the deception by Mike Cowdrey. Of course, this calls into question the identification of the skull fragment found in the Deep Ravine area. On the upside, there's still a 1 in 210 chance that Bouyer's marker is in the right place. Frank Prchal ( talk) 23:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)