Not sure about starting a sentence with "It" here: "It was part of a diversion to draw Turkish attention away from the main assaults against Sari Bair, Chunuk Bair and Hill 971, which became known as the August Offensive." Perhaps consider: "The battle was part of a diversion to draw Turkish attention away from the main assaults against Sari Bair, Chunuk Bair and Hill 971, which became known as the August Offensive."
For me the structure of the Prelude section seems a little counter-intuitive. Have you considered putting the "Military situation" section before the "Terrain"? It might introduce the reader to the topic a bit better. The reader is suddenly presented with the presence of ANZAC and Turkish lines but may not understand the reason for their existance until a couple of paragraphs later. Of course I know of no policy to back this up (suggestion only).
I think I decided to do it this way because it was the way Hawkeye and I structured the Milne Bay article. Anyway, I tried a number of times to rework this offline, but couldn't get it to flow when I turned it around. I think that the Military situation section flows into the Opposing forces section, but it doesn't seem to work if I move Terrain below that. I don't know, what do you think?
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
I can see your point. The "terrain" section does introduce the readers to a couple of key geographic features that are mentioned in the "military situation" section so perhaps you're right.
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
I'm a unclear what you mean here: "In front of this, the Turkish line extended from the head of a gully known as "Owen's Gulley" by the Australians south for 400 yards (370 m) towards the neck of Bolton's Ridge and continued south along a spur called Sniper's Ridge." Do you mean the Australians had extended the Turkish line of trenches following their capture?
No, this was before the attack. The "by the Australians" bit is explaining that they were the ones who called it "Owen's Gulley"; the Turks probably had a different name for it, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. It is definately a convoluted sentence, though, so I tweaked the punctuation. Does this make it a little easier to understand?
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Language here: "Walker did not approve of an attack at Lone Pine, let alone a mere diversion." To me using the construction "did not approve" suggests Walker had some sort of say in the matter - although as soldiers both you and I know he probably didn't. Perhaps consider: "did not favour" (minor nitpick of course).
I wonder if this is too colloquial "Due to concerns of shooting their mates..."?
Changed to "comrades", but I'm not sure it works. Mates has a better ring to it, I think, whereas comrades makes me think of blokes in fur hats drinking vodka.
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
True. I just wonder if other readers are going to understand the usage though. Certainly happy to change it back if you feel it an issue. Not a warstopper.
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Missing word here: "into a melee as the soldiers attacked each with bayonets and grenades...", consider "...into a melee as the soldiers attacked each other with bayonets and grenades..."
In the third and fourth paras of the aftermath you mention a stalemate developing. This is either a little repetitive or its a little contradictory. Presumably if a statlemate is developing in the first paragraph it has continued in the second? Could you possibly reword one?
You seem to include more details about Turkish strength than that of the Australians in the prelude section (ref sentence begining "Opposing the Australians at Lone Pine, were..."). I know you detail the attacking units further down in the "Battle" section but you might consider a sentence on this here - perhaps identifying the initial brigade that would make the assault and its approx strenght?
Yes thats what I was thinking of. My only concern now is that there is probably one too many 3rd level headings in the Prelude section (especially given that you don't use them in the other sections at all). Might I suggest merging the "military situation" and "opposing forces" sections back to a single section called "military situation"? Also you might consider adding a couple of 3rd level headings to the "battle" section (suggestion only).
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Done. Had to move the images around a little. What do you think of the headings? I wanted to have one called "Lone Pine held", but couldn't find a way to fit it in after "Turkish counterattacks".
AustralianRupert (
talk)
14:12, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
No issues here AFAIK.
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
All recent edits look constructive.
It contains
images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
a (tagged and captioned): b (Is illustrated with appropriate images): c (non-free images have
fair use rationales): d public domain pictures appropriately demonstrate why they are public domain:
Images used are all in the public domain or licenced and seem appropriate for the article.
Overall:
a Pass/Fail:
Overall this is an impressive article in my opinion. I am not very familiar with the details of this action, but it seems like a solid treatment of the topic without going into unnecessary detail. It is well written, well cited and balanced and is neatly presented.
Happy with the improvements you have made - the article easily meets the GA criteria in my opinion so I'm promoting now. I have also gone a head a made a couple of changes to paragraphing and image placement - these may have been a little bold so pls check my work. If you don't think it works pls just revert. Well done again.
Anotherclown (
talk)
21:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Not sure about starting a sentence with "It" here: "It was part of a diversion to draw Turkish attention away from the main assaults against Sari Bair, Chunuk Bair and Hill 971, which became known as the August Offensive." Perhaps consider: "The battle was part of a diversion to draw Turkish attention away from the main assaults against Sari Bair, Chunuk Bair and Hill 971, which became known as the August Offensive."
For me the structure of the Prelude section seems a little counter-intuitive. Have you considered putting the "Military situation" section before the "Terrain"? It might introduce the reader to the topic a bit better. The reader is suddenly presented with the presence of ANZAC and Turkish lines but may not understand the reason for their existance until a couple of paragraphs later. Of course I know of no policy to back this up (suggestion only).
I think I decided to do it this way because it was the way Hawkeye and I structured the Milne Bay article. Anyway, I tried a number of times to rework this offline, but couldn't get it to flow when I turned it around. I think that the Military situation section flows into the Opposing forces section, but it doesn't seem to work if I move Terrain below that. I don't know, what do you think?
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
I can see your point. The "terrain" section does introduce the readers to a couple of key geographic features that are mentioned in the "military situation" section so perhaps you're right.
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
I'm a unclear what you mean here: "In front of this, the Turkish line extended from the head of a gully known as "Owen's Gulley" by the Australians south for 400 yards (370 m) towards the neck of Bolton's Ridge and continued south along a spur called Sniper's Ridge." Do you mean the Australians had extended the Turkish line of trenches following their capture?
No, this was before the attack. The "by the Australians" bit is explaining that they were the ones who called it "Owen's Gulley"; the Turks probably had a different name for it, but it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. It is definately a convoluted sentence, though, so I tweaked the punctuation. Does this make it a little easier to understand?
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Language here: "Walker did not approve of an attack at Lone Pine, let alone a mere diversion." To me using the construction "did not approve" suggests Walker had some sort of say in the matter - although as soldiers both you and I know he probably didn't. Perhaps consider: "did not favour" (minor nitpick of course).
I wonder if this is too colloquial "Due to concerns of shooting their mates..."?
Changed to "comrades", but I'm not sure it works. Mates has a better ring to it, I think, whereas comrades makes me think of blokes in fur hats drinking vodka.
AustralianRupert (
talk)
13:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
True. I just wonder if other readers are going to understand the usage though. Certainly happy to change it back if you feel it an issue. Not a warstopper.
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Missing word here: "into a melee as the soldiers attacked each with bayonets and grenades...", consider "...into a melee as the soldiers attacked each other with bayonets and grenades..."
In the third and fourth paras of the aftermath you mention a stalemate developing. This is either a little repetitive or its a little contradictory. Presumably if a statlemate is developing in the first paragraph it has continued in the second? Could you possibly reword one?
You seem to include more details about Turkish strength than that of the Australians in the prelude section (ref sentence begining "Opposing the Australians at Lone Pine, were..."). I know you detail the attacking units further down in the "Battle" section but you might consider a sentence on this here - perhaps identifying the initial brigade that would make the assault and its approx strenght?
Yes thats what I was thinking of. My only concern now is that there is probably one too many 3rd level headings in the Prelude section (especially given that you don't use them in the other sections at all). Might I suggest merging the "military situation" and "opposing forces" sections back to a single section called "military situation"? Also you might consider adding a couple of 3rd level headings to the "battle" section (suggestion only).
Anotherclown (
talk)
13:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Done. Had to move the images around a little. What do you think of the headings? I wanted to have one called "Lone Pine held", but couldn't find a way to fit it in after "Turkish counterattacks".
AustralianRupert (
talk)
14:12, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
No issues here AFAIK.
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
All recent edits look constructive.
It contains
images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
a (tagged and captioned): b (Is illustrated with appropriate images): c (non-free images have
fair use rationales): d public domain pictures appropriately demonstrate why they are public domain:
Images used are all in the public domain or licenced and seem appropriate for the article.
Overall:
a Pass/Fail:
Overall this is an impressive article in my opinion. I am not very familiar with the details of this action, but it seems like a solid treatment of the topic without going into unnecessary detail. It is well written, well cited and balanced and is neatly presented.
Happy with the improvements you have made - the article easily meets the GA criteria in my opinion so I'm promoting now. I have also gone a head a made a couple of changes to paragraphing and image placement - these may have been a little bold so pls check my work. If you don't think it works pls just revert. Well done again.
Anotherclown (
talk)
21:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply