This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Kosovo article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 15, 2004, June 15, 2005, June 15, 2006, and June 28, 2007. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
|
||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
summaize key facts( MOS:INFOBOX); when its fields have the potential to become unwieldy, they should not be exhaustive lists, but highlight the most important examples. Those opposing exclusion produced sources showing that Muzaka, and to a lesser extent Jonima, were leaders of their own men, but they failed to refute (and did not seriously contest) the claim of the supporters, backed by a number of RS, that they were not top-level commanders but instead served under one of three most prominently mentioned in RS. Overall, a slight majority of participants and the balance of the sources and arguments found that neither man was a commander of sufficient prominence to merit inclusion in the infobox. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 22:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima are listed in the infobox section "Commanders and leaders". Should they be listed there? --Azor ( talk). 19:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
"When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict». A wide range of sources explain the army to be led by Lazar; with Brankovic and Vukovic leading the respective right- and left wing. Malcom (p 64-65) writes: Lazar commanded the centre; Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general." ie. Vlatko Vuković. It appears that Muzaka and Jonima are included solely based on the fact that certain sources mention their involvement, rather than because they played a leading role. Having the article's body go more in depth about the participants, like it already does, seems like the proper solution. --Azor ( talk). 19:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.". No mention of Muzaka or anyone else as a commander or leader. Then there is Dejan Djokić, A Concise History of Serbia, Cambridge University Press, 2023,
"It is unlikely, as is sometimes suggested, that Lazar commanded a broad coalition that, in addition to his and Vuk Branković’s armies and reinforcements from Bosnia, included Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs.". Khirurg ( talk) 04:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs, and that is a fringe theory because we know Serbs were not the only Christians present.
... Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with 'other Albanian lords'...Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History (1998). Muzaka is not an ordinary fighter here, he brought troops as a lord.
Lazar... and King Marko... and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lostfrom the original chronicle of John Muzaka in 1515
... is a historical fact that they were on the Serbian side against the Ottoman Empire in that cataclysmic battle of 1389 ( under Albanian counts Balsha and Jonima)Veremes, Thanos; Kophos, Euangelos, Kosovo: avoiding another Balkan war (1998).
... Vlach contingents of Voyvode Mircea, the troops of Lazar's son-in-law Vuk Brankovic and Albanian forces under George Balsha and Demeter Jonima.Robert Elsie, Historical dictionary of Kosova (2004).
Two years later... Teodor Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima fought in the battle of Kosovo...Genc Myftiu, Albania: a Patrimony of European Values Guide of Albanian History and Culture Heritage (2000)
sur les sept chefs de guerre de cette coalition, deux étaient albanais, Gjergj Balsha II et Dhimiter Jonima. Auraient aussi participé à cette bataille d'autres féodaux albanais, notamment Gjon Muzaka et Teodor Muzaka II...Bashkim Iseni, La question nationale en Europe du sud-est: genèse, émergence et développement de l'identité nationale albanaise au Kosovo et en Macédoine (2008)
"Albanian historians give them (Albanians in Lazars' army) a prominent place. (...) Albanian history books claim Gjergj Balsha, whom they treat as a purely Albanian figure, also took part, and this is almost certainly false.(Malcolm, p.61, 1998). I respectfully request that editors refrain from selectively choosing sources and instead form their opinions on the basis of overall RS on this battle. --Azor ( talk). 07:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
"the main components of Lazar's force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.". As I have said, leave cherry picking out of this. This is not how you win support for your view. --Azor ( talk). 09:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
A figure is not included in the infobox because he was a "leader" in the battle, but because reliable sources include them in the list of notable figures who commanded troops in the battle.
commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary).Botushali ( talk) 11:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Indeed, King Tvrtko of Bosnia (who had sent troops to help Tzar Lazar under Vlatko Vuković) even boasted that he had won the Battle of Kosovo(Humphreys, 2013, p.64) Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
The main Christian force was the Serbian contingent led by Prince Lazar(Cox, 2002, p.29) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic (later)
Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad(Emmert, 1991, p.3). Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
Apart from the predominantly Serbian army, there were troops sent by Trvko and a squadron led by Ban John.(Budak, 2001, 287) Mentions indirectly Lazar and Brankovic (Serbian army) and Vlatko. Including Ban John.
Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.(Malcolm, 1998, p. 64-65). Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Vukovic. Nonetheless, Muzaka is also mentioned, but in contrast to the others, is given no military authority.
The main characters are Prince Lazar and Brankovic(Duijzings, 2000, p.185) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic
Lazar managed to bring his own forces together with those of his son-in-law, Vuk Brankovic, Trvrtko of Bosnia and other powerful Serbian and Croat leaders( Matthias, 1987, p.12) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Trvtko
At the end of the battle (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar's and Brankovic's) and Bosnian (Vlatko Vukovic's) troops withdrew.(Fine, 1994, p.410)
Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders.(p.409) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic. : --Azor ( talk). 22:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
A (short-term) solution: As previously suggested, the approach of allowing their inclusion within the infobox while designating a separate location from the Commander section appears to be a fair solution. The footnote can serve as a temporary place for participants with limited information, allowing for their potential incorporation into the commander section as additional details gradually improve in the article over time. Per
WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise—with the understanding that the page is gradually improving—than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately
. This approach extends to all participants, like for example Ban John, whose role as a "squadron leader" in Lazar's army is currently only found in a single source.
--Azor (
talk). 16:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary).Botushali ( talk) 23:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
As the
previous RfC highlighted; infoboxes are designed for quick fact-checking. Thus, the inclusion of the belligerents itself bear the same exact issue by violating
MOS:INFOBOX: keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article.
This issue centers around: the Knights Hospitaller, Principality of Muzaka, and Jonima Family, which all has considerably low scholarly consensus, as reflected in the article's lack of overall coverage on their involvement.
The belligerents' inclusion to the infobox stemmed from the incorporation of their leader, a decision which the latest RfC demonstrated to be a mistake. Edit history shows that neither the inclusions of the belligerents nor their leaders were backed by overall RS/consensus among editors. Additionally, conflicting information from RS adds to their lack of credibility: Lazar sought aid from his neighbors Tvtrko and Vuk Brankovic. Trtvko sendt a large contigent under the command of Vlatko Vukovic. Vuk Brankovic came himself, leading his own men. Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these three leaders, none of whom was then a Turkish vassal.
(John V. A. Fine, p. 409). I trust that the previous RfC provided valuable insights into relevant guidelines for all involved editors, with the hope of preventing yet another RfC about the article's infobox.
--Azor (
talk). 21:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is no source or evidence that Principality of Muzaka and Jonima Family participated in the Battle. Nikolaass31 ( talk) 19:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiabilityis not what he said, and you know that. Maleschreiber said everything that needs to be said. The request for change will naturally be overruled because #1, the request itself is a false statement; #2, sources haven’t been presented but rather disregarded; #3, the request is vaguely formulated.
The "inconclusive" part's sources are all christian european borned historians'.The best Ottoman historian, Halil İnalcık says its a pirus win of Ottomans just because the after events. Also, the killed in action is not true, it is assasination by Milos Obilic in most of the sources. Also, Prince Jacob(Shahzade Yakup, the Çelebi) choked because of the new reign and risk of the civil war. Furkanberk52 ( talk) 11:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() |
|
Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka are listed in the infobox section "Belligerents". Should they continue to stay there?
--Azor ( talk). 19:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Exclude both.The inclusion of "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" in the infobox raise several issues.
1. Limited presentation
All sources in the article consistently identify Moravian Serbia (under Lazar), supported by the District of Branković (Vuk Branković) and the Kingdom of Bosnia (Vlatko Vuković, sent by King Tvrtko) as the primary belligerents. Most of the sources focus solely on these belligerents, as evident in the following examples
"Lazar commanded the Serbs (p.409). The Bosnians fought as well, as did Vuk Brankovic. At the end of the battle, (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar and Brankovic) and Bosnian (Vukovic) troops withdrew. (p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409)"[1]
"On 28 June 1389 the combined Serbian forces from the territories governed by Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad and his army on the field of Kosovo"[2]
"Upon recieving news of his [Murad's] approach, Prince Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, on whose land the battle was fought, and King Tvrtko, who sent a large unit under the command of Vlatko Vukovic, joined forces."[3]
These sources do not mention any other belligerents or possible ethnic groups in Lazar's army. Additional examples can be provided if necessary during the RfC.
2. Doubts Regarding Credibility and Verification
"An early-sixteenth-century family history of an Albanian noble family, the Muzaka (or 'Musachi'), records that Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with ‘other Albanian lords’, and that he was killed in the battle. Many of the other details in this memoir are verifiably accurate, so this claim may well be trustworthy too "and Hungarians;
"The participation of Hungarians seems especially likely, given that Lazar had long had close relations with his northern neighbours and had married one of his daughters to a Hungarian nobleman."While the author provides some information about the involvement of Albanians and Hungarians in Lazar's army, there is uncertainty and speculation surrounding their participation. For instance, the claim that Teodor Muzaka brought a large band of Albanians to join Lazar's army lacks verifiability, as stated by the author himself. Additionally, the source fails to inform the reader whether the principality itself participated in the war or if the Albanians originated from Muzaka's domain. As a result, selectively identifying specific belligerents from this information would constitute original research. The author presecedes to end the paragraph with
"But the main components of his [Lazar] force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.".
3. Breaches of infobox guidelines
The inclusion of the two Albanian belligerents in the infobox lacks necessary context, scholarly consensus, credibility, and affirmation. While the author Malcolm speculates about Muzaka's participation, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the entire principality participated. Furthermore, none other belligerents, except those of Lazar, Branković, and Vuković, provide concrete information about their actual involvement in the battle or the aftermath of their participation. The inclusion of Jonima family and the Principality of Muzaka in the infobox is clearly original research and does not enhance understanding and raises more questions than answers for the readers of the article. Overall, this breaches the infobox military conflict guidelines:
Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim
(..) in smaller ones [belligerents] (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding.
Comment: Several sources referenced in this article draw from Ottoman primary sources. However, scholars like Malcolm and John Fine within this work have raised doubts about the reliability of such sources:
"The earliest Ottoman accounts, written in the fifteenth century, do refer to Albanians in Lazar's army; they also list many other ethnic components. One refers to mercenaries from Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Hungary; another adds to that list soldiers from Wallachia, and Bulgarians, Czechs and 'Franks'"
"But on the other hand the Ottoman writers were evidently eager to build up the size and significance of Lazar's army, which they described as vastly outnumbering Murat's, in order to add to the glory of the Turkish victory. (..) Albanian history books claim that Balsha also took part and this is almost certainly false. The only basis for this claim is the account of the early Ottoman historian Nesri (..) These Ottoman claims are not to be trusted."John Fine [1]:
"This account by Mehmed Nesri, however, would become the major resource for subsequent descriptions of the battle, not only in the Ottoman world but in Western Europe as well. (..) He clearly intended to describe a significant Ottoman victory at Kosovo and thus exaggerated much of his narrative in order to magnify the success of the Turks." p.10'.
" Based on Ottoman sources, attributes to the Albanian leaders Balsha , Jonima and Muzaka an organized Albanian contingent as numerous as one-forth of the entire Balkan coalition"[5]. Please retain from using sources which might be based on these disputable Ottoman sources. --Azor( talk) 21:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Kosovo article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 15, 2004, June 15, 2005, June 15, 2006, and June 28, 2007. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
|
||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
summaize key facts( MOS:INFOBOX); when its fields have the potential to become unwieldy, they should not be exhaustive lists, but highlight the most important examples. Those opposing exclusion produced sources showing that Muzaka, and to a lesser extent Jonima, were leaders of their own men, but they failed to refute (and did not seriously contest) the claim of the supporters, backed by a number of RS, that they were not top-level commanders but instead served under one of three most prominently mentioned in RS. Overall, a slight majority of participants and the balance of the sources and arguments found that neither man was a commander of sufficient prominence to merit inclusion in the infobox. — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 22:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima are listed in the infobox section "Commanders and leaders". Should they be listed there? --Azor ( talk). 19:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
"When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict». A wide range of sources explain the army to be led by Lazar; with Brankovic and Vukovic leading the respective right- and left wing. Malcom (p 64-65) writes: Lazar commanded the centre; Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general." ie. Vlatko Vuković. It appears that Muzaka and Jonima are included solely based on the fact that certain sources mention their involvement, rather than because they played a leading role. Having the article's body go more in depth about the participants, like it already does, seems like the proper solution. --Azor ( talk). 19:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.". No mention of Muzaka or anyone else as a commander or leader. Then there is Dejan Djokić, A Concise History of Serbia, Cambridge University Press, 2023,
"It is unlikely, as is sometimes suggested, that Lazar commanded a broad coalition that, in addition to his and Vuk Branković’s armies and reinforcements from Bosnia, included Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs.". Khirurg ( talk) 04:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs, and that is a fringe theory because we know Serbs were not the only Christians present.
... Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with 'other Albanian lords'...Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History (1998). Muzaka is not an ordinary fighter here, he brought troops as a lord.
Lazar... and King Marko... and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lostfrom the original chronicle of John Muzaka in 1515
... is a historical fact that they were on the Serbian side against the Ottoman Empire in that cataclysmic battle of 1389 ( under Albanian counts Balsha and Jonima)Veremes, Thanos; Kophos, Euangelos, Kosovo: avoiding another Balkan war (1998).
... Vlach contingents of Voyvode Mircea, the troops of Lazar's son-in-law Vuk Brankovic and Albanian forces under George Balsha and Demeter Jonima.Robert Elsie, Historical dictionary of Kosova (2004).
Two years later... Teodor Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima fought in the battle of Kosovo...Genc Myftiu, Albania: a Patrimony of European Values Guide of Albanian History and Culture Heritage (2000)
sur les sept chefs de guerre de cette coalition, deux étaient albanais, Gjergj Balsha II et Dhimiter Jonima. Auraient aussi participé à cette bataille d'autres féodaux albanais, notamment Gjon Muzaka et Teodor Muzaka II...Bashkim Iseni, La question nationale en Europe du sud-est: genèse, émergence et développement de l'identité nationale albanaise au Kosovo et en Macédoine (2008)
"Albanian historians give them (Albanians in Lazars' army) a prominent place. (...) Albanian history books claim Gjergj Balsha, whom they treat as a purely Albanian figure, also took part, and this is almost certainly false.(Malcolm, p.61, 1998). I respectfully request that editors refrain from selectively choosing sources and instead form their opinions on the basis of overall RS on this battle. --Azor ( talk). 07:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
"the main components of Lazar's force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.". As I have said, leave cherry picking out of this. This is not how you win support for your view. --Azor ( talk). 09:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
A figure is not included in the infobox because he was a "leader" in the battle, but because reliable sources include them in the list of notable figures who commanded troops in the battle.
commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary).Botushali ( talk) 11:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Indeed, King Tvrtko of Bosnia (who had sent troops to help Tzar Lazar under Vlatko Vuković) even boasted that he had won the Battle of Kosovo(Humphreys, 2013, p.64) Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
The main Christian force was the Serbian contingent led by Prince Lazar(Cox, 2002, p.29) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic (later)
Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad(Emmert, 1991, p.3). Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
Apart from the predominantly Serbian army, there were troops sent by Trvko and a squadron led by Ban John.(Budak, 2001, 287) Mentions indirectly Lazar and Brankovic (Serbian army) and Vlatko. Including Ban John.
Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.(Malcolm, 1998, p. 64-65). Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Vukovic. Nonetheless, Muzaka is also mentioned, but in contrast to the others, is given no military authority.
The main characters are Prince Lazar and Brankovic(Duijzings, 2000, p.185) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic
Lazar managed to bring his own forces together with those of his son-in-law, Vuk Brankovic, Trvrtko of Bosnia and other powerful Serbian and Croat leaders( Matthias, 1987, p.12) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Trvtko
At the end of the battle (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar's and Brankovic's) and Bosnian (Vlatko Vukovic's) troops withdrew.(Fine, 1994, p.410)
Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders.(p.409) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic. : --Azor ( talk). 22:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
A (short-term) solution: As previously suggested, the approach of allowing their inclusion within the infobox while designating a separate location from the Commander section appears to be a fair solution. The footnote can serve as a temporary place for participants with limited information, allowing for their potential incorporation into the commander section as additional details gradually improve in the article over time. Per
WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise—with the understanding that the page is gradually improving—than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately
. This approach extends to all participants, like for example Ban John, whose role as a "squadron leader" in Lazar's army is currently only found in a single source.
--Azor (
talk). 16:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
commander1/commander2/commander3 – optional – the commanders of the military forces involved. For battles, this should include military commanders (and other officers as necessary).Botushali ( talk) 23:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
As the
previous RfC highlighted; infoboxes are designed for quick fact-checking. Thus, the inclusion of the belligerents itself bear the same exact issue by violating
MOS:INFOBOX: keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article.
This issue centers around: the Knights Hospitaller, Principality of Muzaka, and Jonima Family, which all has considerably low scholarly consensus, as reflected in the article's lack of overall coverage on their involvement.
The belligerents' inclusion to the infobox stemmed from the incorporation of their leader, a decision which the latest RfC demonstrated to be a mistake. Edit history shows that neither the inclusions of the belligerents nor their leaders were backed by overall RS/consensus among editors. Additionally, conflicting information from RS adds to their lack of credibility: Lazar sought aid from his neighbors Tvtrko and Vuk Brankovic. Trtvko sendt a large contigent under the command of Vlatko Vukovic. Vuk Brankovic came himself, leading his own men. Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these three leaders, none of whom was then a Turkish vassal.
(John V. A. Fine, p. 409). I trust that the previous RfC provided valuable insights into relevant guidelines for all involved editors, with the hope of preventing yet another RfC about the article's infobox.
--Azor (
talk). 21:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
There is no source or evidence that Principality of Muzaka and Jonima Family participated in the Battle. Nikolaass31 ( talk) 19:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiabilityis not what he said, and you know that. Maleschreiber said everything that needs to be said. The request for change will naturally be overruled because #1, the request itself is a false statement; #2, sources haven’t been presented but rather disregarded; #3, the request is vaguely formulated.
The "inconclusive" part's sources are all christian european borned historians'.The best Ottoman historian, Halil İnalcık says its a pirus win of Ottomans just because the after events. Also, the killed in action is not true, it is assasination by Milos Obilic in most of the sources. Also, Prince Jacob(Shahzade Yakup, the Çelebi) choked because of the new reign and risk of the civil war. Furkanberk52 ( talk) 11:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() |
|
Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka are listed in the infobox section "Belligerents". Should they continue to stay there?
--Azor ( talk). 19:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Exclude both.The inclusion of "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" in the infobox raise several issues.
1. Limited presentation
All sources in the article consistently identify Moravian Serbia (under Lazar), supported by the District of Branković (Vuk Branković) and the Kingdom of Bosnia (Vlatko Vuković, sent by King Tvrtko) as the primary belligerents. Most of the sources focus solely on these belligerents, as evident in the following examples
"Lazar commanded the Serbs (p.409). The Bosnians fought as well, as did Vuk Brankovic. At the end of the battle, (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar and Brankovic) and Bosnian (Vukovic) troops withdrew. (p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409)"[1]
"On 28 June 1389 the combined Serbian forces from the territories governed by Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad and his army on the field of Kosovo"[2]
"Upon recieving news of his [Murad's] approach, Prince Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, on whose land the battle was fought, and King Tvrtko, who sent a large unit under the command of Vlatko Vukovic, joined forces."[3]
These sources do not mention any other belligerents or possible ethnic groups in Lazar's army. Additional examples can be provided if necessary during the RfC.
2. Doubts Regarding Credibility and Verification
"An early-sixteenth-century family history of an Albanian noble family, the Muzaka (or 'Musachi'), records that Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with ‘other Albanian lords’, and that he was killed in the battle. Many of the other details in this memoir are verifiably accurate, so this claim may well be trustworthy too "and Hungarians;
"The participation of Hungarians seems especially likely, given that Lazar had long had close relations with his northern neighbours and had married one of his daughters to a Hungarian nobleman."While the author provides some information about the involvement of Albanians and Hungarians in Lazar's army, there is uncertainty and speculation surrounding their participation. For instance, the claim that Teodor Muzaka brought a large band of Albanians to join Lazar's army lacks verifiability, as stated by the author himself. Additionally, the source fails to inform the reader whether the principality itself participated in the war or if the Albanians originated from Muzaka's domain. As a result, selectively identifying specific belligerents from this information would constitute original research. The author presecedes to end the paragraph with
"But the main components of his [Lazar] force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.".
3. Breaches of infobox guidelines
The inclusion of the two Albanian belligerents in the infobox lacks necessary context, scholarly consensus, credibility, and affirmation. While the author Malcolm speculates about Muzaka's participation, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the entire principality participated. Furthermore, none other belligerents, except those of Lazar, Branković, and Vuković, provide concrete information about their actual involvement in the battle or the aftermath of their participation. The inclusion of Jonima family and the Principality of Muzaka in the infobox is clearly original research and does not enhance understanding and raises more questions than answers for the readers of the article. Overall, this breaches the infobox military conflict guidelines:
Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim
(..) in smaller ones [belligerents] (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding.
Comment: Several sources referenced in this article draw from Ottoman primary sources. However, scholars like Malcolm and John Fine within this work have raised doubts about the reliability of such sources:
"The earliest Ottoman accounts, written in the fifteenth century, do refer to Albanians in Lazar's army; they also list many other ethnic components. One refers to mercenaries from Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Hungary; another adds to that list soldiers from Wallachia, and Bulgarians, Czechs and 'Franks'"
"But on the other hand the Ottoman writers were evidently eager to build up the size and significance of Lazar's army, which they described as vastly outnumbering Murat's, in order to add to the glory of the Turkish victory. (..) Albanian history books claim that Balsha also took part and this is almost certainly false. The only basis for this claim is the account of the early Ottoman historian Nesri (..) These Ottoman claims are not to be trusted."John Fine [1]:
"This account by Mehmed Nesri, however, would become the major resource for subsequent descriptions of the battle, not only in the Ottoman world but in Western Europe as well. (..) He clearly intended to describe a significant Ottoman victory at Kosovo and thus exaggerated much of his narrative in order to magnify the success of the Turks." p.10'.
" Based on Ottoman sources, attributes to the Albanian leaders Balsha , Jonima and Muzaka an organized Albanian contingent as numerous as one-forth of the entire Balkan coalition"[5]. Please retain from using sources which might be based on these disputable Ottoman sources. --Azor( talk) 21:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
References