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Battle of Kherson was nominated as a Warfare good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 11, 2024, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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This article contains a translation of Бої за Херсон from uk.wikipedia. |
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 2, 2024. |
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Hey Curbon7. Since you added the controversy template to the article, do you have any immediate issues/see non-neutral issues with the section? I'm asking because after my copy/edit request out right now for the article, I was hoping to GAN it. Any thoughts would be useful. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 03:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
This way the timeline is subdivided, with each day as its own sub-subsection, isn't great. It doesn't make for a logical experience when looking at the table of contents. It might be possible to organize it by "phases" of the battle instead, like how battle of Avdiivka (2022–present) does it. HappyWith ( talk) 21:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
I think a nice touch to the article would be to add some unit flags in the infobox like it was done in the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive page. Alexis Coutinho ( talk) 22:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Please change "Kherson Teroboronov" to "Kherson Territorial Defense Forces," which is the English equivalent of the term that appears in the Ukrainian article. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
In the "Aftermath" section, the following sentence appears to violate WP:SYNTHESIS:
Later in March, Russia advanced westward, beginning the battle of Mykolaiv.
I'm making this claim because it seems that this sentence reaches a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source - the NYT article makes no mention of the Russian westward troop movement marking the beginning of a battle. Indeed, the bulk of RS report on combat in and around Mykolaiv well before the fall of Kherson, including during the last few days of February. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
The spellings "Kolykhaev," "Kolykhaiev," and "Kolykhayev" are variably used. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey Cinderella157, I got a question. I looked over MOS:MIL and I am unable to locate where it says bullet points are not allowed. Could you point me to that and/or quote where it says that? The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 23:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
the numerous other towns and cities mentioned during the battle. I was going to add another Talk page section to address this but decided that five in a single day was probably more than enough. By
numerous other towns and cities, I assume you are primarily referring this sentence on the page:
At the end of the day, Russian troops had captured several towns in the region including Henichesk, Skadovsk, Kakhovka, Nova Kakhovka, Tavriisk, as well as the Kakhovka Dam and the North Crimean Canal.
the numerous other towns and cities mentionedhere. I see the following places: Kherson, Nova Kakhovka, Antonivka, Sadove, Oleshky, Chornobaivka, Zymivnyk, and Komyshany. With the exception of Nova Kakhovka, all of
the numerous other towns and cities mentionedfall within an approximate 20km radius of the city center of Kherson, roughly following the curve of the Kherson Ring Road. Please understand that when we are talking about the Kherson Oblast here, we are talking about a place with a square area of nearly thirty thousand square kilometers. You can not realistically justify that
the battle for Kherson Oblast was this battlewhen all the significant combat operations of this battle took place in a twenty kilometer radius.
So, while RS don't state it, it is an understood thingto justify our arguments, we are entering extremely murky and frankly dangerous territory as editors, especially as it relates to a conflict still going on its second birthday with minimal formal military-historical analysis to draw on. I need to remind you, per WP:PST, that
analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
It doesn't seem pertinent to this page, since it's a content dispute, and it belongs at Talk:Battle of Kherson. So, if I may, would you mind self-reverting or at least saying a different reason to not have bullet points? Also, if you decide to self-revert, feel free to help us not have a SYNTH issue with those bullet points. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello again all, I'd like to address this page's mention of the "194th Belozersky Battalion."
The origin of this terminology appears to be the article titled "Подвиг у Бузковому парку," which tells the story of a military unit called the "194-ий білозерський батальйон" in Ukrainian.
(Presumably) machine translation turned "білозерський" into "Belozersky," likely influenced by the existence of several notable Russian people and Russian places named Belozersky.
But it must be noted that this translation process has taken a Ukrainian word and returned an English word that uses Russian romanization. Given that language is a particularly sensitive issue on articles relating to the Russo-Ukrainian crisis, I don't anticipate any opposition to my request that this article follow the Ukrainian romanization, Bilozersky, in order to properly represent the name of the military unit in question.
In addition to using Ukrainian romanization, I have another suggestion for the way that we translate the name of this military unit. The word "Bilozersky" here is just the adjectival form of Bilozerka, the village west of Kherson where the battalion was headquarted. The article mentions that nearly everyone in the battalion was a resident of a village in the Bilozerka Raion - specifically, it mentions people from Posad-Pokrovske, Chornobaivka, Stanislav, Naddniprianske, and Kyselivka. So maybe it's better for the readers' understanding if the name is translated as the 194th Bilozerka Battalion. Grammatically, it makes no real difference, and there's also the opportunity include a link to the location, so that the name appears as 194th Bilozerka Battalion. I'll leave this suggestion to the discretion of the editors with the ability to edit this page.
I also want to point out that for the Ukrainska Pravda article which contains all this information, the date of publication appears to have been mis-transcribed. It was published on November 8, 2022, not March 8, 2022.
Another small catch: In the infobox, you might also consider "pushing forward" the name of this battalion by one space, in order to represent its subservience to the 124th Kherson Territorial Defense Brigade, which is already well-established.
SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 00:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey SaintPaulOfTarsus, whenever you are done with all the changes for the article, shoot me a ping here. I was not anticipating really any changes to the article, so the article already went through a copy/edit and was a GA nomination.
Part of the GA nomination criteria is that the article doesn't change much day to day. So a ping would be much appreciated once the changes are done, since the copy/edit process probably needs to take place again and the GA nomination may need to be withdrawn pending it. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Nominator: WeatherWriter ( talk · contribs)
Reviewer: Amitchell125 ( talk · contribs) 17:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
Happy to review this article. I notice you are (as of the end of March) on a Wikibreak—please let me know when you are ready to start working with me on the review. AM
I have gone ahead and added a map to help understand the events of the battle. Please feel free to delete it if you wish. Amitchell125 ( talk) 20:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I have yet to do spot checks on the references, these will follow shortly. Amitchell125 ( talk) 06:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
(The version of the article use is this one.)
I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 11 April to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 ( talk) 15:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Failing the nomination due to a lack of activity, but hopefully this will soon be re-nominated. Amitchell125 ( talk) 07:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Kherson, we have a problem. My analysis below shows that an estimated 93% of instances of reliable sources using the term "Battle of Kherson" use it to refer to events not covered by this article whatsoever.
I performed a Google search for the exact string "Battle of Kherson" (not case-sensitive) on 13 April 2024. Of approximately 157 search results, I managed to access 47 unique pages from seemingly reliable sources (methodology is below) that used the term "Battle of Kherson" a total of 65 times. All direct quotes are included here with context. Notable authors (those with their own Wikipedia pages) have been denoted in parentheses.
4 sources use "Battle of Kherson" 4 times in reference to the February–March 2022 Russian takeover of the city
|
---|
The Hindu, 10 November 2022
Euromaidan Press, 18 November 2022
WION, 21 February 2023
India Today, 22 February 2023
|
43 sources use "Battle of Kherson" 61 times to mean a speculative future battle or as a synonym for August–November 2022 Ukrainian counteroffensive activity
| ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Telegraph, 27 July 2022
Foreign Policy, 2 August 2022
Atlantic Council, 2 August 2022
New York Sun, 6 August 2022 ( James Brooke, former Russia bureau chief for VoA and Bloomberg)
The Philadelphia Inquirer, 5 August 2022
Politico, 30 August 2022 ( Alexander Temerko, Ukrainian-born oligarch, formerly of the Russian MoD)
GeopoliticalMonitor.com, 31 August 2022
The National (Scotland), 1 September 2022
Daily Express, 3 September 2022 ( Richard Spencer, foreign correspondent)
Sky News Australia, 7 September 2022 ( Phillips Payson O'Brien, military historian)
The Atlantic, 8 September 2022 ( Phillips Payson O'Brien, military historian)
NeoKohn.hu, 13 September 2022
Radar Armenia, 19 October 2022
WBUR, 28 October 2022
RadixUK.org, 4 November 2022 ( Renaud Girard, French war correspondent)
Atlantic Council, 10 November 2022 ( Andriy Zagorodnyuk, former Ukrainian Minister of Defense)
The Kyiv Independent, 11 November 2022 ( Illia Ponomarenko, Ukrainian war reporter)
The Bulwark, 11 November 2022 ( Cathy Young, Russian-American journalist)
Revolucion.org.es, 14 November 2022
Newsweek, 17 November 2022 ( John Spencer, war researcher and former military officer)
The White House, 21 December 2022 ( Joe Biden)
U.S. Department of Defense, 16 February 2023 ( Lloyd Austin, U.S. Secretary of Defense)
PBS, 20 February 2023
The Conversation, 23 February 2023
NewLinesMag.com, 26 July 2023 ( Michael Weiss, foreign policy writer)
Le Monde, 7 July 2023 ( Florence Aubenas, war correspondent)
Academic paper (accessed through ResearchGate), October 2023
CBS News, 10 December 2023 ( Scott Pelley, former television anchor and war reporter)
European Union, 23 January 2024 ( Josep Borrell, EU foreign affairs representative)
|
Methodology
|
---|
Results I ignored:
|
I welcome discussion on whether Battle of Kherson remains an appropriate article title in light of this evidence. Questions for consideration: Should a parenthetical disambiguator be added? Should "battle" be replaced with word|s used to describe these events more frequently, e.g. "Russian capture of Kherson"? SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 08:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I have implemented some of the more minor recommendations made in the GA review above; I plan on leaving the remaining points to other editors, as I am less familiar with certain sections of this article. For the sake of convenience, I am leaving a record here of which changes I have applied.
Changes
|
---|
Lead/infobox
1.1 Russian invasion
1.2 Battle for the Antonivka Road Bridge
1.3 Ukrainian counterattack
1.4 Encirclement and Russian victory
2 Aftermath
4.1 Treachery and collaboration
4.2 Significance
5 See also
6 References
7 External links Could this source not be incorporated into the article? Not done Spot checks Not done |
SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 23:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Romanova's article, on the topic of decentralization in Ukraine, makes a passing mention of Kherson, saying, without a citation footnote, that the territorial defence unit – up to 300 military personnel – continued to defend the city when the Russian army entered Kherson in tanks. The entire Kherson territorial defence unit was shot in battle by the invaders
, which is interpreted by editors on this page as Ukraine sustained 300 military losses during the battle, with the entire Ukrainian defense force at Kherson having been killed during the fighting
. This constitutes an
WP:exceptional claim and is easily disproven by sources that are far more appropriate to be used in this article like Ukrainska Pravda
1
2
3 which managed to conduct interviews with no less than fourteen living former and current members of the 124th Brigade (the Kherson TrO) who resisted the Russian capture of Kherson: Ihor Likhnov, Mykhailo Baliuk, Ihor Kuraian, Mykola Zozulia, Ihor Hryhorenko, Stanislav Vazanov, Dmytro Ishchenko, Serhii Serheiev, Oleksandr Fediunin, Oleksii Vorontsov, Oleksandr Berezovskii, Oleksandr Kozak, Yevhen call sign "Snake", Oleh call sign "Bear" and photographed probably a dozen more. It is also mentioned in these articles that various additional surviving members of the territorial defense unit took part in guerrilla activities after the Russian capture of the city on 1 March, others joined a reconstituted 192th Battalion/124th Brigade after escaping to Ukrainian-controlled territory at Mykolaiv, and still others joined the 59th Motorized Brigade at Mykolaiv instead. About a dozen members of 194th Battalion/124th Brigade are also reported to have successfully fled the engagement in Buzkovyi (Lilac) Park; several others were taken prisoner by the Russians. Romanova fails
WP:ECREE hard. @
WeatherWriter
SaintPaulOfTarsus (
talk)
05:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Ok, SaintPaulOfTarsus, we need to talk because you just did a whole lot of changes without any talk page discussion. So, can you give some reasoning for the following (just wanting to make sure we have a discussion trail, since this was originally GANed, failed, and following the GAN fail, it seems so much is being altered.
The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Kherson article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
Battle of Kherson was nominated as a Warfare good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 11, 2024, reviewed version). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contains a translation of Бої за Херсон from uk.wikipedia. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on March 2, 2024. |
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Hey Curbon7. Since you added the controversy template to the article, do you have any immediate issues/see non-neutral issues with the section? I'm asking because after my copy/edit request out right now for the article, I was hoping to GAN it. Any thoughts would be useful. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 03:12, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
This way the timeline is subdivided, with each day as its own sub-subsection, isn't great. It doesn't make for a logical experience when looking at the table of contents. It might be possible to organize it by "phases" of the battle instead, like how battle of Avdiivka (2022–present) does it. HappyWith ( talk) 21:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
I think a nice touch to the article would be to add some unit flags in the infobox like it was done in the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive page. Alexis Coutinho ( talk) 22:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Please change "Kherson Teroboronov" to "Kherson Territorial Defense Forces," which is the English equivalent of the term that appears in the Ukrainian article. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
In the "Aftermath" section, the following sentence appears to violate WP:SYNTHESIS:
Later in March, Russia advanced westward, beginning the battle of Mykolaiv.
I'm making this claim because it seems that this sentence reaches a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source - the NYT article makes no mention of the Russian westward troop movement marking the beginning of a battle. Indeed, the bulk of RS report on combat in and around Mykolaiv well before the fall of Kherson, including during the last few days of February. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
The spellings "Kolykhaev," "Kolykhaiev," and "Kolykhayev" are variably used. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 17:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey Cinderella157, I got a question. I looked over MOS:MIL and I am unable to locate where it says bullet points are not allowed. Could you point me to that and/or quote where it says that? The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 23:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
the numerous other towns and cities mentioned during the battle. I was going to add another Talk page section to address this but decided that five in a single day was probably more than enough. By
numerous other towns and cities, I assume you are primarily referring this sentence on the page:
At the end of the day, Russian troops had captured several towns in the region including Henichesk, Skadovsk, Kakhovka, Nova Kakhovka, Tavriisk, as well as the Kakhovka Dam and the North Crimean Canal.
the numerous other towns and cities mentionedhere. I see the following places: Kherson, Nova Kakhovka, Antonivka, Sadove, Oleshky, Chornobaivka, Zymivnyk, and Komyshany. With the exception of Nova Kakhovka, all of
the numerous other towns and cities mentionedfall within an approximate 20km radius of the city center of Kherson, roughly following the curve of the Kherson Ring Road. Please understand that when we are talking about the Kherson Oblast here, we are talking about a place with a square area of nearly thirty thousand square kilometers. You can not realistically justify that
the battle for Kherson Oblast was this battlewhen all the significant combat operations of this battle took place in a twenty kilometer radius.
So, while RS don't state it, it is an understood thingto justify our arguments, we are entering extremely murky and frankly dangerous territory as editors, especially as it relates to a conflict still going on its second birthday with minimal formal military-historical analysis to draw on. I need to remind you, per WP:PST, that
analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.
It doesn't seem pertinent to this page, since it's a content dispute, and it belongs at Talk:Battle of Kherson. So, if I may, would you mind self-reverting or at least saying a different reason to not have bullet points? Also, if you decide to self-revert, feel free to help us not have a SYNTH issue with those bullet points. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello again all, I'd like to address this page's mention of the "194th Belozersky Battalion."
The origin of this terminology appears to be the article titled "Подвиг у Бузковому парку," which tells the story of a military unit called the "194-ий білозерський батальйон" in Ukrainian.
(Presumably) machine translation turned "білозерський" into "Belozersky," likely influenced by the existence of several notable Russian people and Russian places named Belozersky.
But it must be noted that this translation process has taken a Ukrainian word and returned an English word that uses Russian romanization. Given that language is a particularly sensitive issue on articles relating to the Russo-Ukrainian crisis, I don't anticipate any opposition to my request that this article follow the Ukrainian romanization, Bilozersky, in order to properly represent the name of the military unit in question.
In addition to using Ukrainian romanization, I have another suggestion for the way that we translate the name of this military unit. The word "Bilozersky" here is just the adjectival form of Bilozerka, the village west of Kherson where the battalion was headquarted. The article mentions that nearly everyone in the battalion was a resident of a village in the Bilozerka Raion - specifically, it mentions people from Posad-Pokrovske, Chornobaivka, Stanislav, Naddniprianske, and Kyselivka. So maybe it's better for the readers' understanding if the name is translated as the 194th Bilozerka Battalion. Grammatically, it makes no real difference, and there's also the opportunity include a link to the location, so that the name appears as 194th Bilozerka Battalion. I'll leave this suggestion to the discretion of the editors with the ability to edit this page.
I also want to point out that for the Ukrainska Pravda article which contains all this information, the date of publication appears to have been mis-transcribed. It was published on November 8, 2022, not March 8, 2022.
Another small catch: In the infobox, you might also consider "pushing forward" the name of this battalion by one space, in order to represent its subservience to the 124th Kherson Territorial Defense Brigade, which is already well-established.
SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 00:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
Hey SaintPaulOfTarsus, whenever you are done with all the changes for the article, shoot me a ping here. I was not anticipating really any changes to the article, so the article already went through a copy/edit and was a GA nomination.
Part of the GA nomination criteria is that the article doesn't change much day to day. So a ping would be much appreciated once the changes are done, since the copy/edit process probably needs to take place again and the GA nomination may need to be withdrawn pending it. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 06:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Nominator: WeatherWriter ( talk · contribs)
Reviewer: Amitchell125 ( talk · contribs) 17:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
Happy to review this article. I notice you are (as of the end of March) on a Wikibreak—please let me know when you are ready to start working with me on the review. AM
I have gone ahead and added a map to help understand the events of the battle. Please feel free to delete it if you wish. Amitchell125 ( talk) 20:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
I have yet to do spot checks on the references, these will follow shortly. Amitchell125 ( talk) 06:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
(The version of the article use is this one.)
I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 11 April to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 ( talk) 15:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Failing the nomination due to a lack of activity, but hopefully this will soon be re-nominated. Amitchell125 ( talk) 07:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Kherson, we have a problem. My analysis below shows that an estimated 93% of instances of reliable sources using the term "Battle of Kherson" use it to refer to events not covered by this article whatsoever.
I performed a Google search for the exact string "Battle of Kherson" (not case-sensitive) on 13 April 2024. Of approximately 157 search results, I managed to access 47 unique pages from seemingly reliable sources (methodology is below) that used the term "Battle of Kherson" a total of 65 times. All direct quotes are included here with context. Notable authors (those with their own Wikipedia pages) have been denoted in parentheses.
4 sources use "Battle of Kherson" 4 times in reference to the February–March 2022 Russian takeover of the city
|
---|
The Hindu, 10 November 2022
Euromaidan Press, 18 November 2022
WION, 21 February 2023
India Today, 22 February 2023
|
43 sources use "Battle of Kherson" 61 times to mean a speculative future battle or as a synonym for August–November 2022 Ukrainian counteroffensive activity
| ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The Telegraph, 27 July 2022
Foreign Policy, 2 August 2022
Atlantic Council, 2 August 2022
New York Sun, 6 August 2022 ( James Brooke, former Russia bureau chief for VoA and Bloomberg)
The Philadelphia Inquirer, 5 August 2022
Politico, 30 August 2022 ( Alexander Temerko, Ukrainian-born oligarch, formerly of the Russian MoD)
GeopoliticalMonitor.com, 31 August 2022
The National (Scotland), 1 September 2022
Daily Express, 3 September 2022 ( Richard Spencer, foreign correspondent)
Sky News Australia, 7 September 2022 ( Phillips Payson O'Brien, military historian)
The Atlantic, 8 September 2022 ( Phillips Payson O'Brien, military historian)
NeoKohn.hu, 13 September 2022
Radar Armenia, 19 October 2022
WBUR, 28 October 2022
RadixUK.org, 4 November 2022 ( Renaud Girard, French war correspondent)
Atlantic Council, 10 November 2022 ( Andriy Zagorodnyuk, former Ukrainian Minister of Defense)
The Kyiv Independent, 11 November 2022 ( Illia Ponomarenko, Ukrainian war reporter)
The Bulwark, 11 November 2022 ( Cathy Young, Russian-American journalist)
Revolucion.org.es, 14 November 2022
Newsweek, 17 November 2022 ( John Spencer, war researcher and former military officer)
The White House, 21 December 2022 ( Joe Biden)
U.S. Department of Defense, 16 February 2023 ( Lloyd Austin, U.S. Secretary of Defense)
PBS, 20 February 2023
The Conversation, 23 February 2023
NewLinesMag.com, 26 July 2023 ( Michael Weiss, foreign policy writer)
Le Monde, 7 July 2023 ( Florence Aubenas, war correspondent)
Academic paper (accessed through ResearchGate), October 2023
CBS News, 10 December 2023 ( Scott Pelley, former television anchor and war reporter)
European Union, 23 January 2024 ( Josep Borrell, EU foreign affairs representative)
|
Methodology
|
---|
Results I ignored:
|
I welcome discussion on whether Battle of Kherson remains an appropriate article title in light of this evidence. Questions for consideration: Should a parenthetical disambiguator be added? Should "battle" be replaced with word|s used to describe these events more frequently, e.g. "Russian capture of Kherson"? SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 08:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I have implemented some of the more minor recommendations made in the GA review above; I plan on leaving the remaining points to other editors, as I am less familiar with certain sections of this article. For the sake of convenience, I am leaving a record here of which changes I have applied.
Changes
|
---|
Lead/infobox
1.1 Russian invasion
1.2 Battle for the Antonivka Road Bridge
1.3 Ukrainian counterattack
1.4 Encirclement and Russian victory
2 Aftermath
4.1 Treachery and collaboration
4.2 Significance
5 See also
6 References
7 External links Could this source not be incorporated into the article? Not done Spot checks Not done |
SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 23:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Romanova's article, on the topic of decentralization in Ukraine, makes a passing mention of Kherson, saying, without a citation footnote, that the territorial defence unit – up to 300 military personnel – continued to defend the city when the Russian army entered Kherson in tanks. The entire Kherson territorial defence unit was shot in battle by the invaders
, which is interpreted by editors on this page as Ukraine sustained 300 military losses during the battle, with the entire Ukrainian defense force at Kherson having been killed during the fighting
. This constitutes an
WP:exceptional claim and is easily disproven by sources that are far more appropriate to be used in this article like Ukrainska Pravda
1
2
3 which managed to conduct interviews with no less than fourteen living former and current members of the 124th Brigade (the Kherson TrO) who resisted the Russian capture of Kherson: Ihor Likhnov, Mykhailo Baliuk, Ihor Kuraian, Mykola Zozulia, Ihor Hryhorenko, Stanislav Vazanov, Dmytro Ishchenko, Serhii Serheiev, Oleksandr Fediunin, Oleksii Vorontsov, Oleksandr Berezovskii, Oleksandr Kozak, Yevhen call sign "Snake", Oleh call sign "Bear" and photographed probably a dozen more. It is also mentioned in these articles that various additional surviving members of the territorial defense unit took part in guerrilla activities after the Russian capture of the city on 1 March, others joined a reconstituted 192th Battalion/124th Brigade after escaping to Ukrainian-controlled territory at Mykolaiv, and still others joined the 59th Motorized Brigade at Mykolaiv instead. About a dozen members of 194th Battalion/124th Brigade are also reported to have successfully fled the engagement in Buzkovyi (Lilac) Park; several others were taken prisoner by the Russians. Romanova fails
WP:ECREE hard. @
WeatherWriter
SaintPaulOfTarsus (
talk)
05:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Ok, SaintPaulOfTarsus, we need to talk because you just did a whole lot of changes without any talk page discussion. So, can you give some reasoning for the following (just wanting to make sure we have a discussion trail, since this was originally GANed, failed, and following the GAN fail, it seems so much is being altered.
The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)