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I would like to put out feelers for a comprehensive mediation. I do not see the possibility of further communication or collaboration without an effective intermediary.-- G-Dett 04:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and others – Greetings. I’d like to make two suggestions regarding your interest in mediation. Perhaps these will be useful.
Thanks for hearing me out. Regardless of these suggestions, I hope things go more smoothly for you all. HG | Talk 20:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Along with contributing my suggestions to HG's list of issues for ways forward with this article, I notified ArbCom of the damage done to this TalkPage by Steve, Sm8900, see here. PalestineRemembered 22:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I've pointed out a number of times how the "kurdi bear" material is misleading due to a distortion of context, and so I don't understand why it would again be added. Similarly, the outwardly unimportant "some" keep getting removed, however our previous discussions showed that sources like the UN and NGOs refused to use the word indiscriminate without reverting to external quotations or other qualification, and that only the Spanish/EU report was clear in the charge, hence it is still misleading to present the charge as representative of "international sources". I hope to see lots of red ink up to this point, and hopefully none after it. Tewfik Talk 09:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
please go over the notes and leave your commentary here. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
there are probably a couple left outs, but in general it is, i believe, a fair representative of the majority of related text. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The Palestinian death toll was estimated at 52 (including 22 civilians), while 23 Israeli soldiers were killed.
According to the United Nations (which was prevented from making a visit), "at least 52" Palestinian deaths were confirmed.[13] Human Rights Watch "confirmed that at least fifty-two Palestinians were killed ... This figure may rise".[36] No other Palestinian deaths from the battle have been confirmed since this time. The IDF estimate the number at 52. The designation of combatants differs (IDF counts 38 "armed men", HRW counts 30 "militants"). Palestinian Fatah investigators claimed the death toll is 56,[35] announced on April 30 by Qadoura Moussa, the Fatah director for the Northern West Bank. 23 Israeli soldiers were also killed.[37]
Human Rights Watch found no evidence for a massacre, but said "However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law." The human rights organization also criticized Palestinian militants for having endangered the lives of Palestinian civilians in part by "intermingling" with them.
Derek Holley, a military advisor to Amnesty International, corroborated that there was no massacre. "Talking to people and talking to witnesses, even very credible witnesses, it just appears there was no wholesale killing." he added.
The UN report stated that fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the end of May 2002, which mirrored the IDF report, but fell short of the estimate by a senior Palestinian Authority official who had claimed that about five hundred were killed which was not corroborated by evidence.[13] This report was criticized by the group Human Rights Watch as being "flawed" due to a lack of first-hand evidence.[58] The report itself states that a fact-finding team led by Martti Ahtisaari was unable to visit the area as planned due to concerns of the Israeli government, which meant that the report had to rely on papers submitted by different nations and NGOs, and other documents.
... The UN report confirmed that "at least 52 Palestinians" deaths were reported by the Jenin hospital by the end of May 2002 and that Palestinian reports of 500 dead had not been substantiated.
Popularly watched was the footage captured on video by an Israeli drone flying over Jenin on April 28. Palestinian pallbearers carried a green blanket-wrapped "corpse" who was accidentally dropped and then stood up and placed himself back in the blanket. He was taken to a staged funeral.
-- G-Dett 21:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)During the battle, Dr. David Zangen, chief medical officer of the Israeli paratroop unit that was fighting in Jenin, reported that the IDF had worked to keep the local Palestinian hospital open and that Israeli doctors had offered the Palestinians blood for their wounded, who then refused to be given "Jewish blood". Col. Arik Gordin of the IDF Office of Military Spokesmen has stated Israel subsequently flew in 2,000 units of blood from Jordan and arranged 40 more units of blood from the Muqased Hospital (East Jerusalem), which were sent to the Ramallah and Tulkarm hospitals, and also facilitated the delivery of 1,800 units of anti-coagulants that had come from Morocco.
(outdent for space) Again, to clarify my initial comments here on Talk, I suggested how you all might clarify your (i.e., G-Dett's) request for mediation and also how to be more courteous on Talk so as not to have your dispute appear daunting (disheartening) to whomever might take the case. I wrote in a mediator/facilitator style but I did not and have not offered to "mediate" here. Incidentally, Steve did ask me to look here initially and he hasn't accused me of anything. Anyway, I'm not esp perturbed about concerns expressed about me here. At most, they may reflect poorly on the level of trust here and may be daunting to a mediator-to-be-named-later (as we say in USA sports chat). Anyway, here are some signs of progress:
Overall, I can't tell whether the Talk here will actually resolve your disputes. Still, the discussion has cooled off somewhat and I gather that enough folks (e.g., Jaakobou, Kyaa) would like to proceed apace without outside mediation at this juncture. Is that right? Take care. HG | Talk 12:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
as i've stated before, i intended to leave this issue out until i make a deeper inspection. i present some sources and hope to hear some perspectives and opinions on these sources. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 04:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
1) (translated) , (original)
4) Jeningrad: what the british media said
(struck my comment, I didn't notice the Google translations - will comment again shortly) Eleland 11:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
0) Thanks for the effort to find sources.
1) Google machine translations are unreliable, although in at least one case the author is clearly discussing genocide, this is not clear in all 3.
2) We need to know who these sources are; are they reprints of print media or just some websites? If they're print, what kind of circulation and influence do they have? If they're websites, is there any exceptional reason to believe they are significant? Eleland 12:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
i'm starting up a section regarding this [5] dispute over the "see also" inclusion/exclusion of the Pallywood article.
feel free to give your commentary regarding your position on this issue in the following subsections, try to keep it short and to the point. for generic commentary/questions leave your comment on the proper subsection. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop re-structuring the discussion, moving comments around, and adding headers to comments. I am becoming progressively more upset with this behavior. I do not believe you intend to manipulate opinion by this procedure, but it nonetheless could have the effect. There is no reason for it. Please stop. Eleland 02:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tewfik and Jaakobou. Here are the two disputed versions of the lead:
- Palestinian and international sources described the Israeli actions as indiscriminate and raised allegations of massacre and war crimes. Major human rights organizations subsequently conducted extensive investigations and found no evidence of massacres, but strong prima facie evidence of IDF war crimes.
- Palestinian and some international sources described the Israeli actions as indiscriminate and raised allegations of massacre, initially reported in the international media and subsequently disproven by outside observers, although major human rights organizations maintained that there was strong prima facie evidence of IDF war crimes.
Tewfik, you continue to insert "some" before "international sources," arguing that the EU report is the only international source that describes Israeli actions as indiscriminate. This is false, as we've gone through together pretty exhaustively here. Both the Amnesty investigation/report and the HRW investigation/report (as well as the latter's response to the U.N. report) stressed indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force by the IDF. I'm not sure why you're still edit-warring over this.
Secondly, your version ends on a wordier, more syntactically tangled note, and it falls back into the trap of beefing up one aspect of the findings of human-rights organizations while minimizing the other. My version follows their wording: they found no evidence of massacre, but prima facie evidence of war crimes. Your version keeps elevating the former to a "disproof." I trust it's clear why that's a violation of WP:NPOV? The choices are (i) presenting the massacre as "disproven" and the war crimes as "confirmed"; or (ii) using the language sources use, and say they found no evidence of massacre, but prima facie evidence of war crimes. I much prefer the latter, but I'll leave it you. Understand, however, that the days of picking and choosing and selectively enhancing are over.-- G-Dett 13:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - we're going over the war crime allegations here, you might want to participate so we can get some actual proof displayed regarding this issue of who said what. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 12:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Kyaa, I'm trying to understand this edit. I get it that you're mimicking me, but I don't understand the WP:POINT you're making. "Jenin, Jenin" is not a left-wing blog term, and Jenin, Jenin is not a video, nor is it obscure. It was film produced and directed by a major Arab-Israeli actor and filmmaker, had a major distribution deal, screened theatrically, featured in a number of prominent international film festivals and won major prizes in two, including "best film," became the focus of a censorship controversy when the normally dormant Israeli Censorship Board banned it (a decision subsequently reversed by the Israeli high court), and generally attracted a large amount of international attention and became a prominent prop in ongoing disputes about what happened in Jenin. Though originally projected as a film, Jenin, Jenin is now available on VHS and DVD through Netflix, Amazon.com, and Blockbuster, and is housed in most major university research libraries.
Pallywood was an 18-minute video edited together out of TV footage by a medieval historian in Boston, who then posted it streaming on his blog. You can also watch it on youtube. It was never screened, distributed, or reviewed. It is flogged by right-wing pro-Israel bloggers (who found in it the conspiracy theory they needed) and by Wikipedians (who link to it wherever they can and call it a "film" even though it isn't because that makes it sound more important). "Pallywood" – both the youtube video and the blog-slang – went, however, all but completely unnoticed by the mainstream media.-- G-Dett 16:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Look, all this striking out of comments is getting exhausting. I can barely keep up with the whack-a-mole, and then to have to un-whack every mole that then goes to ground....
Let's concentrate on the mainspace shall we? We are all pissed off. Tone is important, but it ain't everything.-- G-Dett 01:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It is completely one-sided to count up all the Palestinian attacks in the lead and ignore the Israeli attacks, which prompted the Palestinian attacks, etc. The source, the Prime Minister of Israel at the time, specifically says the Jenin attack was in response to the attacks over the previous few days which caused 27 or more causalities. -- 146.115.58.152 12:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - this issue has been discussed, please (1) signup with your regular username, or at least sign up with a new one. (2) go over the talk and look for previous discussions. (3) i disagree with your perception on who prompted what and this article could get real troublesome if we go with that type of information all the way back to the jews of Yathrib. the general consensus was that the events which led to israel moving into PA controlled jenin camp are the attacks, we can't go back beyond that, please look for this in the archives and let us know if you wish to reopen the issue. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The Battle of Jenin took place between the 3rd and 11th of April 2002 in Jenin's Palestinian refugee camp. It constituted the apex and most controversial episode of Operation Defensive Shield, Israel's large-scale military response to a string of Palestinian suicide bombings. As the camp was completely sealed for the duration of the siege, early accounts of what took place depended heavily on hearsay, and were significantly revised by outside investigations in the aftermath. Details of the siege are still hotly disputed, and continue to serve as a lightning rod for criticism of Israel's alleged human-rights violations on the one hand, and alleged Palestinian media manipulation on the other.
comment1 - if certain editors can't cool off and avoid discussions that don't really relate to them, then i'm afraid we won't get many things achieved on this article.
comment2 - User:146.115.58.152, please follow my requests and when finished start a proper subsection on the topic and we will adress it properly and probably make some new concensus on how to write down the intro and the background section, i think the background is indeed pro-israel in an innaccurate way, but i don't see how misplacing information and turning the talk into a battleground (not reffering to anyone in particular) will help us resolve anything. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 22:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
to resolve the dispute about who did what and how the war crimes should be attributed i open this subsesction so that we can handle this dispute properly.
please add all sources relating to who did what either to Israeli war crimes, Palestinian war crimes, or Both were complicit, make your comments on the comments section.
note: please pay careful attention to who says what on your provided sources, don't misrepresent, and try to keep it short and easy to follow. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
the following is an attempt to resolve the long standing dispute of the inclusion/exclusion of the {{TotallyDisputed}} tag at the top of the article.
for now, there are three subsections -
(1)
opinions about the tag - keep/exclude
(2)
issues i'd like to see resolved
(3)
questions and notes
--
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk
08:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please note that nobody has actually addressed this issue properly. The tag denotes that "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed". It doesn't say "This article is neither neutral nor factually accurate". Those who are expressing their opinion of the article's neutrality are missing the point. The discussion should be about whether the dispute exists. Myself, and (I believe) G-Dett and PalestineRemembered also, say that the article is highly POV and contains factual inaccuracies and misrepresentations. Jaakobou, Tewfik, and Kyaa do not seem to agree. Prima facie that is an NPOV and accuracy dispute; nobody has explained why it isn't one. Rather than removing the notice of the dispute, why don't we try and remove the cause of the dispute. Eleland 13:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
??? -- 146.115.58.152 22:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment - this issue has been fairly well explained and was seemed to be resolved in previous talk and also it's well referenced on the article (so i've already archived it). please go over the material and stop placing tags on the intro before you do. go over these discussions - (1), (2) - and let me know if you're interested in reopening the dispute. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
ANNIE WHITE: But first, the United Nations has released its long awaited report on the events in the West Bank city of Jenin in April, when Israeli troops seeking Palestinian militants, attacked the refugee camp there with tanks, helicopter launched-missiles and hundreds of troops.
Israel refused to allow the UN to investigate the alleged massacre of civilians so the report was compiled from accounts supplied by the Israeli Army, the Palestinians and various agencies.
The report that has emerged is at best a compromise, criticising both sides for using innocent civilians as human shields.
Unlike the UN investigators, our Foreign Affairs Editor, Peter Cave, did get into Jenin while it was still besieged by the Israeli Army and he's been looking at the UN report for Correspondence Report.
PETER CAVE: Was there a massacre in Jenin? Well, yes there was.
The Macquarie Dictionary and the OED define a massacre as the unnecessary indiscriminate killing or slaughter of human beings.
The UN's report, flawed though it is by being forced to rely on second-hand and often deeply partisan accounts, claims that 75 human beings died, 23 Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians, half of them civilians.
Were the deaths necessary or discriminate? Not by any measure.
Israel, however, has put its own spin on the UN report.
DANIEL TAUB: This report, and a whole host of meetings in the United Nations, were a response to allegations of absolutely shocking massacre that was supposed to have taken place in Jenin.
The report apparently makes it clear that there was no such thing, http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/563.cfm and that allegations, particularly by the Palestinian leadership, of hundreds of innocent civilians who had been killed, were nothing more than a propaganda.
PETER CAVE: Israeli Foreign Ministry Spokesman, Daniel Taub.
Palestinian spokesman, Saeb Erekat, had his own spin when interviewed by the BBC just after the report was released.
SAEB EREKAT: Five-hundred and more Palestinians will be killed, will be a massacre. Five Israelis to ten... what is the definition of a massacre? Do you mean to tell me now that five-hundred and more Palestinians will be killed will be a massacre? Five Israelis to ten will be described by BBC as a massacre. I've heard, this is not the point here, the point is that if we set wrong numbers, we stand to be corrected.
since we seem to have quite a few versions on how to phrase the "jenin massacre" name i request people, rather than revert and change to their preferred version, list down the version they prefer 'and the reasoning. if you wish to ask questions or make commentary please do it on the comments and questions section. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would prefer to take Jenin Massacre out of the lead altogether. If we consider only Western sources, it is not at all clear that "Jenin Massacre" was ever used as a name for the fighting of April 2002, even by the British press. Jaakobou seems to concede this when he writes "'jenin massacre' was never an official name". Compare, for example, Racak massacre. Here is a BBC article three years after the fact that uses the term "Racak massacre" in a plain, matter-of-fact, narrational voice to refer to that incident (in which the death toll was 45, by the way). There has never been an article in the British press that uses the term "Jenin massacre" in a comparable way. The most notorious article, the BBC's Jenin 'massacre evidence growing', does not state as fact that a massacre occured. The article only says that it is the opinion of an expert working for Amnesty International that there might have been a massacre, based on the evidence available at the time. Note that the word massacre in headline is inside a quotation. On the other hand, if we are talking about the Arab press, it seems to be the consensus here that the term Jenin massacre is still being used, so "previously referred to" does not apply. Sanguinalis 02:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that that is a good solution, and hope that you'll be able to convince the rest of us. The only issue which I had with the edits (which were clearly marked and thought out - I'm grateful for that) was inclusion of the previous incursions etc. in the lead. I appreciate the attempt at "balance" as it were, but the previous IDF actions, while relevant, are not directly related in the way that the other "context" is, that is those specific bombings were cited by the Israelis as a direct part of the cassus belli. The information is still valuable to the broader picture, and so I moved it to the "background" section, albeit without the vague and possibly controversial "cycle" phrasing. Tewfik Talk 08:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Sanguinalis sums it up well. The term "jenin massacre" appears to have been largely an invention of Israeli and pro-Israeli press, who then attributed it falsely to their opponents. In any case, it is not suitable for inclusion in the lead, which should focus primarily on the actual events on the ground, with secondary attention to international reaction. Currently we have a lead which talks more about Palestinian suicide bombings than any other topic; now you want to add information about sporadic reports in non-reliable media outlets? If you replace paragraphs 2 and 3 with a single brief mention that it was part of IDF operation "Defensive Shield", you have something close to the lede I'd prefer. The last thing we should do is stuff in more tangentally relevant information just to make Palestinians look bad, let alone draw false implications about what international organizations did. Eleland 14:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The term "jenin massacre" appears to have been largely an invention of Israeli and pro-Israeli press, who then attributed it falsely to their opponents.
— by User:Eleland, 14:35, 9 September 2007
all i can say is, "wow". Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Jaakobou or Kyaa can help. In "previously referred to as the Jenin Massacre", who exactly is it who once referred to the battle as "Jenin massacre", and now now longer does? Be specific. Sanguinalis 17:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
"Jenin Massacre" is currently the name of this entry's Arabic version. That phrase in Arabic returns 13,800 hits, none of them to CAMERA et al., while English returns 30,500. Such contemporary gems from the "Israeli and pro-Israeli press" include "Jenin 'massacre evidence growing'", "Arabs press UN over Jenin 'massacre'", and "Expert weighs up Jenin 'massacre'" from the BBC, "Jenin massacre uncovering" and "UN report on Jenin massacre flawed" from ABC (Au), "UN report rejects claims of Jenin massacre" from the Guardian, and others from pro-Israel bastions like Al Jazeera, Democracy Now!, CounterPunch, and more. Tewfik Talk 09:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The weasel word reference, Tewfik, is to the repeated insertion of the word “some” – "some international sources" – on your stated grounds that “only the EU said without qualification” that Israel had used “indiscriminate” and disproportionate force. I don’t where you get this idea and why you keep insisting on it when it’s been shown to be false. The “spin,” of course, is a reference to your continual attempt to frontload, buff up, and even exaggerate those findings you agree with, while muffing or weasel-wording those you don’t. So the fact that human-rights groups “found no evidence of massacres” isn’t enough; you need them to have “disproved” or “overturned" the allegations, and you’re willing to have a syntactically muddled sentence in order to get that extra legalistic ooomph. And while you’re burnishing that finding, you won’t even acknowledge the fact that HRW very clearly described Israeli actions as “indiscriminate,” although it’s irrefutable. I don’t know how to describe this kind of behavior except as disruptive. At any rate, the version you’re edit-warring against is clean, elegant, straightforward, incontestably NPOV, and closely follows the language actually used by the sources. Please stop spinning it.
Now I’m going to give you some sources, most of which you should already have read, in the hopes that you’ll stop once and for all claiming that “only the EU” has described Israel’s use of force as “indiscriminate.” We’ve been through the UN report together; your argument, as I understand it, is that whenever it uses the word “indiscriminate” it’s quoting Palestinians. Even if this were true – and it isn’t – this would still be a very weak argument, because these are findings, and the report is obviously quoting what it finds to be credible. When the UN report says “Witness testimonies and human rights investigations allege that the destruction was both disproportionate and indiscriminate," (i) it is clear that they find the allegations credible, and (ii) while the "witness testimonies" are almost certainly Palestinians, the "human rights investigations" are almost certainly not. At any rate, the reliable sources do not agree with your idiosyncratic argument, and the UN report was widely described as finding Israel to have used “indiscriminate force”: The Toronto Star, for example, reported that “Israel is criticized for "disproportionate and indiscriminate destruction" of civilian property, using Palestinian civilians as human shields during house-to-house searches and for preventing aid and medical workers from staging rescue operations."
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel described in Ha'aretz how the "Jenin refugee camp has been subjected to indiscriminate house demolitions." The detailed Amnesty report "Shielded from Scrutiny: IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus" also focused on the "indiscriminate" use of force. But your most mind-boggling omission is Human Rights Watch's repeated statements on the matter. They say very clearly "Palestinians were used as human shields and the IDF employed indiscriminate and excessive use of force." In their Human Rights Watch World Report, 2003: Events of 2002, they describe the background of Operation Defensive Shield:
During the operation, Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as humans shields.
Then in the next paragraph they focus specifically on the siege of Jenin:
Israeli security forces continued to resort to excessive and indiscriminate use of lethal force, causing numerous civilian deaths and serious injuries. In Jenin, Human Rights Watch documented twenty-two civilian killings during the IDF military operations in April. Many of them were killed willfully or unlawfully, and in some cases constituted war crimes.
It then goes on to describe a 57-year-old man in a wheelchair "equipped with a white flag" being shot to death and run over by IDF tanks, and a 37-year-old quadriplegic being crushed to death when his father was not permitted to evacuate him from their family home. Tewfik, an entire chapter of HRW's lengthy report on Jenin is called "Disproportionate and Indiscriminate Use of Force Without Military Necessity by the IDF." A sample passage:
The destruction in other areas of the camp was indiscriminate in its effect on the civilian population, and disproportionate to the military objective obtained... Human Rights Watch concludes that the Israeli military actions in the Jenin refugee camp included both indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks. Some attacks were indiscriminate because Israeli forces, particularly the IDF helicopters, did not focus their firepower only towards legitimate military targets, but rather fired into the camp at random. This indiscriminate use of firepower added significantly to the civilian casualty toll of the fighting and the destruction of civilian homes in the camp. The Israeli offensive in Jenin refugee camp was also disproportionate, because the incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, and damage to civilian objects was excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
This chapter then has a subsection on "Indiscriminate Helicopter Fire":
Although missiles had been used from the beginning of the incursion, their use became particularly intense in the early morning hours of April 6. Testimony collected by Human Rights Watch indicates that many areas of the refugee camp were fired upon at that time, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. Many of the rockets used were U.S.-made wire-guided TOW missiles. The evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch suggests that many of the TOW missiles indiscriminately hit civilian homes and in at least one case a civilian was killed when she was struck by a helicopter missile. The number of solely civilian objects hit in the helicopter attacks the early morning of April 6 suggests that insufficient care was taken by Israeli forces to target only military objects. Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Nevertheless, such proximity does not provide a valid excuse by Israeli forces' action in firing upon the entire area as if it were a single military target... Indiscriminate attacks were most intense on April 6, but they did not entirely abate afterwards... Some of the helicopter missile fire was so indiscriminate that it nearly killed IDF soldiers.
Tewfik, can you please, please stop saying that among international sources, only a Spanish official of the U.N. described Israeli actions as “indiscriminate”? And will you please leave in place a neutral version of the lead, one which doesn’t muffle or disguise one set of HRW findings while foregrounding and burnishing another?-- G-Dett 14:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Instead of an essay justifying your allegations of bad faith, G-Dett, you could acknowledge that comments should be limited to the edits, and not the editors. The same goes for you, Eleland, since poison like Tewfikstery is just as wrong as me talking about some hypothetical "Elelandery". No one has the right to suspend WP:CIV because they believe that their position is the correct one, and I'm certainly not going to begin taking seriously comments that ignore it just because their frequency is increasing.
As for the actual substance, the above comments omit that the UN report still refuses unqualified use of the word in reference to Jenin, that the AI report still refuses any use of the word in reference to Jenin, and that despite its section documenting the cases it considered indiscriminate, HRW still makes the charge twice in its introduction, once in regard to the Israelis ("At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate"), once to the Palestinians ("using indiscriminate tactics such as planting improvised explosive"). Whether you agree that HRW is qualifying or not, none of this substantiates the idea that the objective position of all of these parties was that "Israeli actions were indiscriminate", nor are these the sum of relevant "international organisations" (the US being a notable example). Hence, "some international organisations". Tewfik Talk 07:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The cites which are there support "Palestinian sources" but not "International". The UN report is based on Palestinian accounts. As for the NGOs and HR groups, that's in the next sentence. <<-armon->> 13:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Hmmm, my custom-made Personal vs. Substance meter seems to be blinking. Nudge, nudge. HG | Talk 02:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, here's another narrow and clear-cut dispute which we can all spill some ink on.
Note six is a scholarly opinion piece by an Israeli grad student, seven is Peter Beaumont in the Observer, and eight is the Jafee Centre conference report.
6 says nothing of the sort about helicopters; just that they were used, and that the IDF officially stated their use was "carefully controlled". It does say that D-9s were used after the April 9 ambush. 7 says nothing about the timing of various weaponry; just that "Dr Zaid Ayasi, director of the [Jenin] hospital, tells us that many of the civilian victims that he knows of were hit by helicopter fire in those few days [after IDF casualties mounted]." 8 has a reprint of BBC's Jeremy Cooke saying "And so for days now [on April 10] the Israeli helicopter gunships have been carrying out wave after wave of attacks against Jenin,"of HRW saying "Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses...Firing was particularly indiscriminate on the morning of April 6, when missiles were launched from helicopters", and of the UN recounting that "Interviews with witnesses conducted by human rights organizations suggest that tanks, helicopters and ground troops using small arms predominated in the firsttwo days ... There are reports that during [5-9 April] IDF increased missile strikes from helicopters".
So that's what the currently used sources have to say; nothing about helicopter fire being "ultimately employed" after Israeli casualties. Armored bulldozer use was greatly stepped up, of course, after the IDF penetrated Hawashin around 9 April but this appears to have happened after their casualties had stopped, rather than "as their casualties mounted". I propose:
I've made the edit, keeping the the 10% of the camp destroyed bit. OK? <<-armon->> 03:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Armon why do you disagree with my edits to the lead section?-- Burgas00 14:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I accidentally reverted you. The really problematic bit for me is the martyrs bit, that many other editors seem to have objected to and seems overtly POV and inadequate for the lead section.
Taking the main elements of my edits:
Eliminating the phrase in the lead that claims that Palestinians know Jenin RC as a "Martyrs Capital It seems to say: "before you read on, don't forget that the people who live here are just a bunch of terrorists, so its ok if they get killed".
Any source which shows evidence of Martyrs capital being used does not prove that such a term is of general use among the Palestinian population and I am sure, as I recall a Palestinian editor expressing, many find it distateful. I would also understand that they find such a statement offensive since it would indirectly say that all Palestinians condone violence.
Eliminating the bit on past terrorist attacks from lead section
That information is already in the background as I have already expressed. I appreciate you have slightly shortened it. My point is that, Background sections exist for a reason, i.e. to offer facts which lead up and explain the described event (in this case the battle of Jenin. Including the terrorist attacks on Israel in the Lead points to an unexpressed urge to justify the Military Operation inmediately and is thus NPOV. I understand we are all politiced and edit these articles from a strong position. However, it would be better if all explanations on why things occur were in the section which serves that purpose.
My edits regarding the term massacre
I may have unwittingly introduced weasel words in this edit as you claim, but the rationale here is that we should not judge whether there was a massacre or not. It is not a court of law and there is no clear definition of massacre. What must be conveyed is that the term massacre was initially used to describe the event, and then dropped by most mainstream media. This is better than saying that initially it was thought that there was a massacre, and then it turned out that there wasn't.
Moving up the paragraph on deaths
Its not only a question of highlighting the human cost. Its more about logical coherency. The lead section should contain firstly what happened and then about the media/international reaction, not vice versa.
That sums up my position, pretty much. I won't edit the article again until some constructive dialogue is established.
--
Burgas00
15:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Jaakobou, yes we are here to report the facts, but to put relevant information in the right places. That X number of Palestinians refer to the Jenin refugee camp as the City of martyrs is not relevant in the lead section of this article. Its sole purpose is to present the camp as "a bunch of terrorists."
Your cultural argument is irrelevant. I'm sure you know as well as I do that the term "martyr" or "shaheed" is associated in the non-muslim world (and english speaking world) with religious violence and suicide bombing. In Arabic, however, the term is applied in all sorts of senses, including, for example, for victims of assasinations.
Therefore this phrase is what you would call "poisoning the well". This article is on English wikipedia and the aim is to present the refugee camp as terrorists immediately in the lead section, hoping for the reader to immediately associate the term "Martyr's capital" with "Terrorist Capital". It is a rather sinister form of editing. -- Burgas00 18:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I see no link to the government of Palestine website. That a Fatah memorandum (according to an Israeli website) calls Jenin the capital of martyrs, bombers or whatever is not sufficient to attribute such a name to the palestinian people. It is neither the official name nor commonly used by Palestinians according to any credible source.
I stand by my above statement, which has not been addressed that this is simply an exercise of well poisoning and word twisting so as to make Jenin's citizens appear as terrorists and collectively responsible for their own deaths.
In any case, it is absolutely unnacceptable that such an irrelevant point be included in the lead section.
Im erasing this until some valid response to my arguments is offered. By the way, setting up a politicised clique in this article, stifling debate is not the way to proceed in wikipedia. -- Burgas00 20:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok maybe I'm being hasty. I'll look into the source in next few days and discuss.-- Burgas00 23:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Burgas is spot-on. The biased presentation of background information in the lede was designed to "soften up" the reader and predispose them to agree with the Israeli assault. And the free use of lurid terminology whenever it impugns the Palestinians is totally uncalled for. We have not quoted, for example, Peter Hansen expressing his "pure horror" at the results of the attack, which was extensively reported, but we're shoving this disputed and less notable claim right into the lede! Eleland 02:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - i suggest you go over all the refs for this instead of trying to defame a single source and claim, in unison, that it's a false presentation. as for the rest of your uncivil comment, User:G-Dett, i note you that it is inborderline soapbox and i do believe that i've already issues a last warning on such activity. [12] should i understand that this assertion that i'm "enthusiastic about pro-Israel blogs and lobby groups" to be an honest mistake or should i pursue the case on the AN/I considering i've given due notices ? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 04:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I took Jaakobou's suggestion to read the cited source, and oh my! how interesting! Source 1 doesn't make the claim at all! The string "martyr" appears thrice, in the following contexts: "Under the slabs of fallen masonry in Jenin is a new legend of martyrdom and heroism," "the camp's activists, drawn from the Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas," and "they were interred together in Jenin's Martyrs' Cemetery." And the other source is a single sentence tacked on to the end of a BBC report, "according to Israel's count". We know very well where they got the claim from - the single document already cited. Thanks for playing, kids. Eleland 15:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm back after that brief arrest.:-) As far as I'm concerned, the credibility and validity of sources is of little importance regarding my qualms with the phrase in the lead section. I have already expressed as clearly as I can why I am against it. However, if objections to credibility do exist, all the more reason to eliminate it.
I honestly think that its now time that we eliminate this line, considering such widespread and reasoned opposition to it. Jaakobou, I think recommend rather than responding by accusing me of sockpuppeteering and "suspicious behaviour" on my talk page, that you are flexible on this point. We all have political agendas on wikipedia, but we have to set limits on ourselves regarding what is fair and what is rational. -- Burgas00 20:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with any attempt to resolve disputes. But I dont remember the word "indiscriminate" being used in the lead section. -- Burgas00 22:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked the following users for 24 hours for disruption on this article and others, each user should have a message on there talk page explaining why they were blocked:
Folks, you guys should know better then to revert war all day, please discuss the issues here rather then trying to get your chosen version to be the top revision. As you all seem to have a decent grasp on the english language, I expect that we all are mature enough to discuss here on the talk page rather then disrupting the article. I would suggest that all of you look at WP:1RR as a possible ideal that may help you folks come to a compromise. Failure to stop editwarring will result in longer blocks. I wish you all best of luck in resolving this issue, and remind all of you that there are alternatives such as WP:MEDCAB and WP:MEDCOM and even a request for comment, use them. —— Eagle101 Need help? 03:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is blowing out of proportion. First Armon and me are blocked and now the page is blocked for 4 days? -- Burgas00 20:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In response to a request at WP:RFPP and an ongoing edit war, I've protected the page for 4 days. Please use the time to try to reach a consensus on disputed issues. If a consensus is reached before the 4 days are up, you can request un-protection at WP:RFPP. As always, the article was protected without regard to its existing state, and the protection in no way endorses the current version as "correct". MastCell Talk 18:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
"
Palestinians refugees" in lede to "
Palestinian refugees", please.
Of course, the whole exposition of Deir Yassin, etc is just a misguided WP:POINT attempt to expose the undue weight on suicide bombing in the next sentence, but we can work with that after the protection expires. Eleland 12:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
...is anyone going to take up the task of stopping this edit war permanently? The most serious effort I'm aware of is HG's attempt to clarify editing issues, so we can move smoothly into formal mediation, but it seems to be a little stale right now.
So let me ask a few basic questions.
Eleland 13:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
after the massive success of closing the first issue raised on the dispute tag conflict [15] in this subsection.
i'm opening a second subsection regarding the second complaint about the reliability of the definitiveness on the statement that the Palestinin Authority claimed 56 were dead.
please leave your commentary regarding the source/s on the related discussion section. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
new: opened a RSN here. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 20:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion. Here's an idea, it's not intended to favor any particular side here. Since there still seems to be disagreement here on how to report Jenin deaths, I'm wondering if you might put together a concise table of the various contested sources and their data? The table would be for Talk or a Talk subpage -- I doubt it's needed for the article, though here's an
example of such a table. The table could list the Source, Publication Date, Other citation info (e.g., author & page #), Data on deaths/casualties, Basis for data (e.g., interviews), Notes (e.g., key quotes, a note about other reports by this Source elsewhere in the Table). Even if you all come to a quick resolution for now, such a Table might provide documentation to inform future generations of Wikipedia editors. Move or refactor this idea as needed. Thanks.
HG |
Talk 03:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC) :Note. This suggestion moved from above. So far, there's been one direct response by PR, excerpted below. Let me know if this slight refactoring isn't clear.
HG |
Talk
18:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is the summing up (by me, PR) of the RfC on the use of CAMERA. The floodgates of partisan contribution that swamped this RfC were opened by a very experienced editor later found to be running long-standing sock-puppets and using them to edit-war. But two and a half uninvolved editors did participate and were pretty definite about their opinions.
comment by jaakobou - (1) i disagree that Number57 is only semi-invovled, but that's not the main issue. (2) i agree 100% that camera should be used with great care, however, in this case, we've validated about 46 out of 50 citations, so there's really no reason to believe anything to be false... if there is a certain unvalidated quote which concerns you, you can bring it up and i'll do my best to validate it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
has nothing to do with the actual battle of Jenin and simply adds to the confusion
"Palestinian refugees living in the camp have been denied the right of return or compensation for the confiscation of their property by Israel. Zionist terrorist groups, such as Irgun and Lehi (group) (also known as the Stern Gang) played a major role in achieving Israeli independence, and the massacre at Deir Yassin and at other locations where civilians were targeted were successful in instilling terror in the indigenous non-Jewish population and which motivated them to flee."
All of that is unnecesary and belongs in a different article Drsmoo 05:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I would like to put out feelers for a comprehensive mediation. I do not see the possibility of further communication or collaboration without an effective intermediary.-- G-Dett 04:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
G-Dett and others – Greetings. I’d like to make two suggestions regarding your interest in mediation. Perhaps these will be useful.
Thanks for hearing me out. Regardless of these suggestions, I hope things go more smoothly for you all. HG | Talk 20:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Along with contributing my suggestions to HG's list of issues for ways forward with this article, I notified ArbCom of the damage done to this TalkPage by Steve, Sm8900, see here. PalestineRemembered 22:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I've pointed out a number of times how the "kurdi bear" material is misleading due to a distortion of context, and so I don't understand why it would again be added. Similarly, the outwardly unimportant "some" keep getting removed, however our previous discussions showed that sources like the UN and NGOs refused to use the word indiscriminate without reverting to external quotations or other qualification, and that only the Spanish/EU report was clear in the charge, hence it is still misleading to present the charge as representative of "international sources". I hope to see lots of red ink up to this point, and hopefully none after it. Tewfik Talk 09:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
please go over the notes and leave your commentary here. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
there are probably a couple left outs, but in general it is, i believe, a fair representative of the majority of related text. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The Palestinian death toll was estimated at 52 (including 22 civilians), while 23 Israeli soldiers were killed.
According to the United Nations (which was prevented from making a visit), "at least 52" Palestinian deaths were confirmed.[13] Human Rights Watch "confirmed that at least fifty-two Palestinians were killed ... This figure may rise".[36] No other Palestinian deaths from the battle have been confirmed since this time. The IDF estimate the number at 52. The designation of combatants differs (IDF counts 38 "armed men", HRW counts 30 "militants"). Palestinian Fatah investigators claimed the death toll is 56,[35] announced on April 30 by Qadoura Moussa, the Fatah director for the Northern West Bank. 23 Israeli soldiers were also killed.[37]
Human Rights Watch found no evidence for a massacre, but said "However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law." The human rights organization also criticized Palestinian militants for having endangered the lives of Palestinian civilians in part by "intermingling" with them.
Derek Holley, a military advisor to Amnesty International, corroborated that there was no massacre. "Talking to people and talking to witnesses, even very credible witnesses, it just appears there was no wholesale killing." he added.
The UN report stated that fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the end of May 2002, which mirrored the IDF report, but fell short of the estimate by a senior Palestinian Authority official who had claimed that about five hundred were killed which was not corroborated by evidence.[13] This report was criticized by the group Human Rights Watch as being "flawed" due to a lack of first-hand evidence.[58] The report itself states that a fact-finding team led by Martti Ahtisaari was unable to visit the area as planned due to concerns of the Israeli government, which meant that the report had to rely on papers submitted by different nations and NGOs, and other documents.
... The UN report confirmed that "at least 52 Palestinians" deaths were reported by the Jenin hospital by the end of May 2002 and that Palestinian reports of 500 dead had not been substantiated.
Popularly watched was the footage captured on video by an Israeli drone flying over Jenin on April 28. Palestinian pallbearers carried a green blanket-wrapped "corpse" who was accidentally dropped and then stood up and placed himself back in the blanket. He was taken to a staged funeral.
-- G-Dett 21:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)During the battle, Dr. David Zangen, chief medical officer of the Israeli paratroop unit that was fighting in Jenin, reported that the IDF had worked to keep the local Palestinian hospital open and that Israeli doctors had offered the Palestinians blood for their wounded, who then refused to be given "Jewish blood". Col. Arik Gordin of the IDF Office of Military Spokesmen has stated Israel subsequently flew in 2,000 units of blood from Jordan and arranged 40 more units of blood from the Muqased Hospital (East Jerusalem), which were sent to the Ramallah and Tulkarm hospitals, and also facilitated the delivery of 1,800 units of anti-coagulants that had come from Morocco.
(outdent for space) Again, to clarify my initial comments here on Talk, I suggested how you all might clarify your (i.e., G-Dett's) request for mediation and also how to be more courteous on Talk so as not to have your dispute appear daunting (disheartening) to whomever might take the case. I wrote in a mediator/facilitator style but I did not and have not offered to "mediate" here. Incidentally, Steve did ask me to look here initially and he hasn't accused me of anything. Anyway, I'm not esp perturbed about concerns expressed about me here. At most, they may reflect poorly on the level of trust here and may be daunting to a mediator-to-be-named-later (as we say in USA sports chat). Anyway, here are some signs of progress:
Overall, I can't tell whether the Talk here will actually resolve your disputes. Still, the discussion has cooled off somewhat and I gather that enough folks (e.g., Jaakobou, Kyaa) would like to proceed apace without outside mediation at this juncture. Is that right? Take care. HG | Talk 12:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
as i've stated before, i intended to leave this issue out until i make a deeper inspection. i present some sources and hope to hear some perspectives and opinions on these sources. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 04:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
1) (translated) , (original)
4) Jeningrad: what the british media said
(struck my comment, I didn't notice the Google translations - will comment again shortly) Eleland 11:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
0) Thanks for the effort to find sources.
1) Google machine translations are unreliable, although in at least one case the author is clearly discussing genocide, this is not clear in all 3.
2) We need to know who these sources are; are they reprints of print media or just some websites? If they're print, what kind of circulation and influence do they have? If they're websites, is there any exceptional reason to believe they are significant? Eleland 12:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
i'm starting up a section regarding this [5] dispute over the "see also" inclusion/exclusion of the Pallywood article.
feel free to give your commentary regarding your position on this issue in the following subsections, try to keep it short and to the point. for generic commentary/questions leave your comment on the proper subsection. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop re-structuring the discussion, moving comments around, and adding headers to comments. I am becoming progressively more upset with this behavior. I do not believe you intend to manipulate opinion by this procedure, but it nonetheless could have the effect. There is no reason for it. Please stop. Eleland 02:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Tewfik and Jaakobou. Here are the two disputed versions of the lead:
- Palestinian and international sources described the Israeli actions as indiscriminate and raised allegations of massacre and war crimes. Major human rights organizations subsequently conducted extensive investigations and found no evidence of massacres, but strong prima facie evidence of IDF war crimes.
- Palestinian and some international sources described the Israeli actions as indiscriminate and raised allegations of massacre, initially reported in the international media and subsequently disproven by outside observers, although major human rights organizations maintained that there was strong prima facie evidence of IDF war crimes.
Tewfik, you continue to insert "some" before "international sources," arguing that the EU report is the only international source that describes Israeli actions as indiscriminate. This is false, as we've gone through together pretty exhaustively here. Both the Amnesty investigation/report and the HRW investigation/report (as well as the latter's response to the U.N. report) stressed indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force by the IDF. I'm not sure why you're still edit-warring over this.
Secondly, your version ends on a wordier, more syntactically tangled note, and it falls back into the trap of beefing up one aspect of the findings of human-rights organizations while minimizing the other. My version follows their wording: they found no evidence of massacre, but prima facie evidence of war crimes. Your version keeps elevating the former to a "disproof." I trust it's clear why that's a violation of WP:NPOV? The choices are (i) presenting the massacre as "disproven" and the war crimes as "confirmed"; or (ii) using the language sources use, and say they found no evidence of massacre, but prima facie evidence of war crimes. I much prefer the latter, but I'll leave it you. Understand, however, that the days of picking and choosing and selectively enhancing are over.-- G-Dett 13:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - we're going over the war crime allegations here, you might want to participate so we can get some actual proof displayed regarding this issue of who said what. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 12:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Kyaa, I'm trying to understand this edit. I get it that you're mimicking me, but I don't understand the WP:POINT you're making. "Jenin, Jenin" is not a left-wing blog term, and Jenin, Jenin is not a video, nor is it obscure. It was film produced and directed by a major Arab-Israeli actor and filmmaker, had a major distribution deal, screened theatrically, featured in a number of prominent international film festivals and won major prizes in two, including "best film," became the focus of a censorship controversy when the normally dormant Israeli Censorship Board banned it (a decision subsequently reversed by the Israeli high court), and generally attracted a large amount of international attention and became a prominent prop in ongoing disputes about what happened in Jenin. Though originally projected as a film, Jenin, Jenin is now available on VHS and DVD through Netflix, Amazon.com, and Blockbuster, and is housed in most major university research libraries.
Pallywood was an 18-minute video edited together out of TV footage by a medieval historian in Boston, who then posted it streaming on his blog. You can also watch it on youtube. It was never screened, distributed, or reviewed. It is flogged by right-wing pro-Israel bloggers (who found in it the conspiracy theory they needed) and by Wikipedians (who link to it wherever they can and call it a "film" even though it isn't because that makes it sound more important). "Pallywood" – both the youtube video and the blog-slang – went, however, all but completely unnoticed by the mainstream media.-- G-Dett 16:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Look, all this striking out of comments is getting exhausting. I can barely keep up with the whack-a-mole, and then to have to un-whack every mole that then goes to ground....
Let's concentrate on the mainspace shall we? We are all pissed off. Tone is important, but it ain't everything.-- G-Dett 01:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It is completely one-sided to count up all the Palestinian attacks in the lead and ignore the Israeli attacks, which prompted the Palestinian attacks, etc. The source, the Prime Minister of Israel at the time, specifically says the Jenin attack was in response to the attacks over the previous few days which caused 27 or more causalities. -- 146.115.58.152 12:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - this issue has been discussed, please (1) signup with your regular username, or at least sign up with a new one. (2) go over the talk and look for previous discussions. (3) i disagree with your perception on who prompted what and this article could get real troublesome if we go with that type of information all the way back to the jews of Yathrib. the general consensus was that the events which led to israel moving into PA controlled jenin camp are the attacks, we can't go back beyond that, please look for this in the archives and let us know if you wish to reopen the issue. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The Battle of Jenin took place between the 3rd and 11th of April 2002 in Jenin's Palestinian refugee camp. It constituted the apex and most controversial episode of Operation Defensive Shield, Israel's large-scale military response to a string of Palestinian suicide bombings. As the camp was completely sealed for the duration of the siege, early accounts of what took place depended heavily on hearsay, and were significantly revised by outside investigations in the aftermath. Details of the siege are still hotly disputed, and continue to serve as a lightning rod for criticism of Israel's alleged human-rights violations on the one hand, and alleged Palestinian media manipulation on the other.
comment1 - if certain editors can't cool off and avoid discussions that don't really relate to them, then i'm afraid we won't get many things achieved on this article.
comment2 - User:146.115.58.152, please follow my requests and when finished start a proper subsection on the topic and we will adress it properly and probably make some new concensus on how to write down the intro and the background section, i think the background is indeed pro-israel in an innaccurate way, but i don't see how misplacing information and turning the talk into a battleground (not reffering to anyone in particular) will help us resolve anything. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 22:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
to resolve the dispute about who did what and how the war crimes should be attributed i open this subsesction so that we can handle this dispute properly.
please add all sources relating to who did what either to Israeli war crimes, Palestinian war crimes, or Both were complicit, make your comments on the comments section.
note: please pay careful attention to who says what on your provided sources, don't misrepresent, and try to keep it short and easy to follow. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
the following is an attempt to resolve the long standing dispute of the inclusion/exclusion of the {{TotallyDisputed}} tag at the top of the article.
for now, there are three subsections -
(1)
opinions about the tag - keep/exclude
(2)
issues i'd like to see resolved
(3)
questions and notes
--
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk
08:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please note that nobody has actually addressed this issue properly. The tag denotes that "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed". It doesn't say "This article is neither neutral nor factually accurate". Those who are expressing their opinion of the article's neutrality are missing the point. The discussion should be about whether the dispute exists. Myself, and (I believe) G-Dett and PalestineRemembered also, say that the article is highly POV and contains factual inaccuracies and misrepresentations. Jaakobou, Tewfik, and Kyaa do not seem to agree. Prima facie that is an NPOV and accuracy dispute; nobody has explained why it isn't one. Rather than removing the notice of the dispute, why don't we try and remove the cause of the dispute. Eleland 13:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
??? -- 146.115.58.152 22:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment - this issue has been fairly well explained and was seemed to be resolved in previous talk and also it's well referenced on the article (so i've already archived it). please go over the material and stop placing tags on the intro before you do. go over these discussions - (1), (2) - and let me know if you're interested in reopening the dispute. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 13:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
ANNIE WHITE: But first, the United Nations has released its long awaited report on the events in the West Bank city of Jenin in April, when Israeli troops seeking Palestinian militants, attacked the refugee camp there with tanks, helicopter launched-missiles and hundreds of troops.
Israel refused to allow the UN to investigate the alleged massacre of civilians so the report was compiled from accounts supplied by the Israeli Army, the Palestinians and various agencies.
The report that has emerged is at best a compromise, criticising both sides for using innocent civilians as human shields.
Unlike the UN investigators, our Foreign Affairs Editor, Peter Cave, did get into Jenin while it was still besieged by the Israeli Army and he's been looking at the UN report for Correspondence Report.
PETER CAVE: Was there a massacre in Jenin? Well, yes there was.
The Macquarie Dictionary and the OED define a massacre as the unnecessary indiscriminate killing or slaughter of human beings.
The UN's report, flawed though it is by being forced to rely on second-hand and often deeply partisan accounts, claims that 75 human beings died, 23 Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians, half of them civilians.
Were the deaths necessary or discriminate? Not by any measure.
Israel, however, has put its own spin on the UN report.
DANIEL TAUB: This report, and a whole host of meetings in the United Nations, were a response to allegations of absolutely shocking massacre that was supposed to have taken place in Jenin.
The report apparently makes it clear that there was no such thing, http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/563.cfm and that allegations, particularly by the Palestinian leadership, of hundreds of innocent civilians who had been killed, were nothing more than a propaganda.
PETER CAVE: Israeli Foreign Ministry Spokesman, Daniel Taub.
Palestinian spokesman, Saeb Erekat, had his own spin when interviewed by the BBC just after the report was released.
SAEB EREKAT: Five-hundred and more Palestinians will be killed, will be a massacre. Five Israelis to ten... what is the definition of a massacre? Do you mean to tell me now that five-hundred and more Palestinians will be killed will be a massacre? Five Israelis to ten will be described by BBC as a massacre. I've heard, this is not the point here, the point is that if we set wrong numbers, we stand to be corrected.
since we seem to have quite a few versions on how to phrase the "jenin massacre" name i request people, rather than revert and change to their preferred version, list down the version they prefer 'and the reasoning. if you wish to ask questions or make commentary please do it on the comments and questions section. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 15:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would prefer to take Jenin Massacre out of the lead altogether. If we consider only Western sources, it is not at all clear that "Jenin Massacre" was ever used as a name for the fighting of April 2002, even by the British press. Jaakobou seems to concede this when he writes "'jenin massacre' was never an official name". Compare, for example, Racak massacre. Here is a BBC article three years after the fact that uses the term "Racak massacre" in a plain, matter-of-fact, narrational voice to refer to that incident (in which the death toll was 45, by the way). There has never been an article in the British press that uses the term "Jenin massacre" in a comparable way. The most notorious article, the BBC's Jenin 'massacre evidence growing', does not state as fact that a massacre occured. The article only says that it is the opinion of an expert working for Amnesty International that there might have been a massacre, based on the evidence available at the time. Note that the word massacre in headline is inside a quotation. On the other hand, if we are talking about the Arab press, it seems to be the consensus here that the term Jenin massacre is still being used, so "previously referred to" does not apply. Sanguinalis 02:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that that is a good solution, and hope that you'll be able to convince the rest of us. The only issue which I had with the edits (which were clearly marked and thought out - I'm grateful for that) was inclusion of the previous incursions etc. in the lead. I appreciate the attempt at "balance" as it were, but the previous IDF actions, while relevant, are not directly related in the way that the other "context" is, that is those specific bombings were cited by the Israelis as a direct part of the cassus belli. The information is still valuable to the broader picture, and so I moved it to the "background" section, albeit without the vague and possibly controversial "cycle" phrasing. Tewfik Talk 08:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Sanguinalis sums it up well. The term "jenin massacre" appears to have been largely an invention of Israeli and pro-Israeli press, who then attributed it falsely to their opponents. In any case, it is not suitable for inclusion in the lead, which should focus primarily on the actual events on the ground, with secondary attention to international reaction. Currently we have a lead which talks more about Palestinian suicide bombings than any other topic; now you want to add information about sporadic reports in non-reliable media outlets? If you replace paragraphs 2 and 3 with a single brief mention that it was part of IDF operation "Defensive Shield", you have something close to the lede I'd prefer. The last thing we should do is stuff in more tangentally relevant information just to make Palestinians look bad, let alone draw false implications about what international organizations did. Eleland 14:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The term "jenin massacre" appears to have been largely an invention of Israeli and pro-Israeli press, who then attributed it falsely to their opponents.
— by User:Eleland, 14:35, 9 September 2007
all i can say is, "wow". Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Jaakobou or Kyaa can help. In "previously referred to as the Jenin Massacre", who exactly is it who once referred to the battle as "Jenin massacre", and now now longer does? Be specific. Sanguinalis 17:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
"Jenin Massacre" is currently the name of this entry's Arabic version. That phrase in Arabic returns 13,800 hits, none of them to CAMERA et al., while English returns 30,500. Such contemporary gems from the "Israeli and pro-Israeli press" include "Jenin 'massacre evidence growing'", "Arabs press UN over Jenin 'massacre'", and "Expert weighs up Jenin 'massacre'" from the BBC, "Jenin massacre uncovering" and "UN report on Jenin massacre flawed" from ABC (Au), "UN report rejects claims of Jenin massacre" from the Guardian, and others from pro-Israel bastions like Al Jazeera, Democracy Now!, CounterPunch, and more. Tewfik Talk 09:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The weasel word reference, Tewfik, is to the repeated insertion of the word “some” – "some international sources" – on your stated grounds that “only the EU said without qualification” that Israel had used “indiscriminate” and disproportionate force. I don’t where you get this idea and why you keep insisting on it when it’s been shown to be false. The “spin,” of course, is a reference to your continual attempt to frontload, buff up, and even exaggerate those findings you agree with, while muffing or weasel-wording those you don’t. So the fact that human-rights groups “found no evidence of massacres” isn’t enough; you need them to have “disproved” or “overturned" the allegations, and you’re willing to have a syntactically muddled sentence in order to get that extra legalistic ooomph. And while you’re burnishing that finding, you won’t even acknowledge the fact that HRW very clearly described Israeli actions as “indiscriminate,” although it’s irrefutable. I don’t know how to describe this kind of behavior except as disruptive. At any rate, the version you’re edit-warring against is clean, elegant, straightforward, incontestably NPOV, and closely follows the language actually used by the sources. Please stop spinning it.
Now I’m going to give you some sources, most of which you should already have read, in the hopes that you’ll stop once and for all claiming that “only the EU” has described Israel’s use of force as “indiscriminate.” We’ve been through the UN report together; your argument, as I understand it, is that whenever it uses the word “indiscriminate” it’s quoting Palestinians. Even if this were true – and it isn’t – this would still be a very weak argument, because these are findings, and the report is obviously quoting what it finds to be credible. When the UN report says “Witness testimonies and human rights investigations allege that the destruction was both disproportionate and indiscriminate," (i) it is clear that they find the allegations credible, and (ii) while the "witness testimonies" are almost certainly Palestinians, the "human rights investigations" are almost certainly not. At any rate, the reliable sources do not agree with your idiosyncratic argument, and the UN report was widely described as finding Israel to have used “indiscriminate force”: The Toronto Star, for example, reported that “Israel is criticized for "disproportionate and indiscriminate destruction" of civilian property, using Palestinian civilians as human shields during house-to-house searches and for preventing aid and medical workers from staging rescue operations."
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel described in Ha'aretz how the "Jenin refugee camp has been subjected to indiscriminate house demolitions." The detailed Amnesty report "Shielded from Scrutiny: IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus" also focused on the "indiscriminate" use of force. But your most mind-boggling omission is Human Rights Watch's repeated statements on the matter. They say very clearly "Palestinians were used as human shields and the IDF employed indiscriminate and excessive use of force." In their Human Rights Watch World Report, 2003: Events of 2002, they describe the background of Operation Defensive Shield:
During the operation, Israeli soldiers repeatedly used indiscriminate and excessive force, killed civilians willfully and unlawfully, and used Palestinian civilians as humans shields.
Then in the next paragraph they focus specifically on the siege of Jenin:
Israeli security forces continued to resort to excessive and indiscriminate use of lethal force, causing numerous civilian deaths and serious injuries. In Jenin, Human Rights Watch documented twenty-two civilian killings during the IDF military operations in April. Many of them were killed willfully or unlawfully, and in some cases constituted war crimes.
It then goes on to describe a 57-year-old man in a wheelchair "equipped with a white flag" being shot to death and run over by IDF tanks, and a 37-year-old quadriplegic being crushed to death when his father was not permitted to evacuate him from their family home. Tewfik, an entire chapter of HRW's lengthy report on Jenin is called "Disproportionate and Indiscriminate Use of Force Without Military Necessity by the IDF." A sample passage:
The destruction in other areas of the camp was indiscriminate in its effect on the civilian population, and disproportionate to the military objective obtained... Human Rights Watch concludes that the Israeli military actions in the Jenin refugee camp included both indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks. Some attacks were indiscriminate because Israeli forces, particularly the IDF helicopters, did not focus their firepower only towards legitimate military targets, but rather fired into the camp at random. This indiscriminate use of firepower added significantly to the civilian casualty toll of the fighting and the destruction of civilian homes in the camp. The Israeli offensive in Jenin refugee camp was also disproportionate, because the incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, and damage to civilian objects was excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
This chapter then has a subsection on "Indiscriminate Helicopter Fire":
Although missiles had been used from the beginning of the incursion, their use became particularly intense in the early morning hours of April 6. Testimony collected by Human Rights Watch indicates that many areas of the refugee camp were fired upon at that time, catching many sleeping civilians unaware. Many of the rockets used were U.S.-made wire-guided TOW missiles. The evidence gathered by Human Rights Watch suggests that many of the TOW missiles indiscriminately hit civilian homes and in at least one case a civilian was killed when she was struck by a helicopter missile. The number of solely civilian objects hit in the helicopter attacks the early morning of April 6 suggests that insufficient care was taken by Israeli forces to target only military objects. Due to the dense urban setting of the refugee camp, fighters and civilians were never at great distances. Nevertheless, such proximity does not provide a valid excuse by Israeli forces' action in firing upon the entire area as if it were a single military target... Indiscriminate attacks were most intense on April 6, but they did not entirely abate afterwards... Some of the helicopter missile fire was so indiscriminate that it nearly killed IDF soldiers.
Tewfik, can you please, please stop saying that among international sources, only a Spanish official of the U.N. described Israeli actions as “indiscriminate”? And will you please leave in place a neutral version of the lead, one which doesn’t muffle or disguise one set of HRW findings while foregrounding and burnishing another?-- G-Dett 14:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Instead of an essay justifying your allegations of bad faith, G-Dett, you could acknowledge that comments should be limited to the edits, and not the editors. The same goes for you, Eleland, since poison like Tewfikstery is just as wrong as me talking about some hypothetical "Elelandery". No one has the right to suspend WP:CIV because they believe that their position is the correct one, and I'm certainly not going to begin taking seriously comments that ignore it just because their frequency is increasing.
As for the actual substance, the above comments omit that the UN report still refuses unqualified use of the word in reference to Jenin, that the AI report still refuses any use of the word in reference to Jenin, and that despite its section documenting the cases it considered indiscriminate, HRW still makes the charge twice in its introduction, once in regard to the Israelis ("At times, however, IDF military attacks were indiscriminate"), once to the Palestinians ("using indiscriminate tactics such as planting improvised explosive"). Whether you agree that HRW is qualifying or not, none of this substantiates the idea that the objective position of all of these parties was that "Israeli actions were indiscriminate", nor are these the sum of relevant "international organisations" (the US being a notable example). Hence, "some international organisations". Tewfik Talk 07:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
The cites which are there support "Palestinian sources" but not "International". The UN report is based on Palestinian accounts. As for the NGOs and HR groups, that's in the next sentence. <<-armon->> 13:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Hmmm, my custom-made Personal vs. Substance meter seems to be blinking. Nudge, nudge. HG | Talk 02:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, here's another narrow and clear-cut dispute which we can all spill some ink on.
Note six is a scholarly opinion piece by an Israeli grad student, seven is Peter Beaumont in the Observer, and eight is the Jafee Centre conference report.
6 says nothing of the sort about helicopters; just that they were used, and that the IDF officially stated their use was "carefully controlled". It does say that D-9s were used after the April 9 ambush. 7 says nothing about the timing of various weaponry; just that "Dr Zaid Ayasi, director of the [Jenin] hospital, tells us that many of the civilian victims that he knows of were hit by helicopter fire in those few days [after IDF casualties mounted]." 8 has a reprint of BBC's Jeremy Cooke saying "And so for days now [on April 10] the Israeli helicopter gunships have been carrying out wave after wave of attacks against Jenin,"of HRW saying "Civilian residents of the camp described days of sustained missile fire from helicopters hitting their houses...Firing was particularly indiscriminate on the morning of April 6, when missiles were launched from helicopters", and of the UN recounting that "Interviews with witnesses conducted by human rights organizations suggest that tanks, helicopters and ground troops using small arms predominated in the firsttwo days ... There are reports that during [5-9 April] IDF increased missile strikes from helicopters".
So that's what the currently used sources have to say; nothing about helicopter fire being "ultimately employed" after Israeli casualties. Armored bulldozer use was greatly stepped up, of course, after the IDF penetrated Hawashin around 9 April but this appears to have happened after their casualties had stopped, rather than "as their casualties mounted". I propose:
I've made the edit, keeping the the 10% of the camp destroyed bit. OK? <<-armon->> 03:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Armon why do you disagree with my edits to the lead section?-- Burgas00 14:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I accidentally reverted you. The really problematic bit for me is the martyrs bit, that many other editors seem to have objected to and seems overtly POV and inadequate for the lead section.
Taking the main elements of my edits:
Eliminating the phrase in the lead that claims that Palestinians know Jenin RC as a "Martyrs Capital It seems to say: "before you read on, don't forget that the people who live here are just a bunch of terrorists, so its ok if they get killed".
Any source which shows evidence of Martyrs capital being used does not prove that such a term is of general use among the Palestinian population and I am sure, as I recall a Palestinian editor expressing, many find it distateful. I would also understand that they find such a statement offensive since it would indirectly say that all Palestinians condone violence.
Eliminating the bit on past terrorist attacks from lead section
That information is already in the background as I have already expressed. I appreciate you have slightly shortened it. My point is that, Background sections exist for a reason, i.e. to offer facts which lead up and explain the described event (in this case the battle of Jenin. Including the terrorist attacks on Israel in the Lead points to an unexpressed urge to justify the Military Operation inmediately and is thus NPOV. I understand we are all politiced and edit these articles from a strong position. However, it would be better if all explanations on why things occur were in the section which serves that purpose.
My edits regarding the term massacre
I may have unwittingly introduced weasel words in this edit as you claim, but the rationale here is that we should not judge whether there was a massacre or not. It is not a court of law and there is no clear definition of massacre. What must be conveyed is that the term massacre was initially used to describe the event, and then dropped by most mainstream media. This is better than saying that initially it was thought that there was a massacre, and then it turned out that there wasn't.
Moving up the paragraph on deaths
Its not only a question of highlighting the human cost. Its more about logical coherency. The lead section should contain firstly what happened and then about the media/international reaction, not vice versa.
That sums up my position, pretty much. I won't edit the article again until some constructive dialogue is established.
--
Burgas00
15:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Jaakobou, yes we are here to report the facts, but to put relevant information in the right places. That X number of Palestinians refer to the Jenin refugee camp as the City of martyrs is not relevant in the lead section of this article. Its sole purpose is to present the camp as "a bunch of terrorists."
Your cultural argument is irrelevant. I'm sure you know as well as I do that the term "martyr" or "shaheed" is associated in the non-muslim world (and english speaking world) with religious violence and suicide bombing. In Arabic, however, the term is applied in all sorts of senses, including, for example, for victims of assasinations.
Therefore this phrase is what you would call "poisoning the well". This article is on English wikipedia and the aim is to present the refugee camp as terrorists immediately in the lead section, hoping for the reader to immediately associate the term "Martyr's capital" with "Terrorist Capital". It is a rather sinister form of editing. -- Burgas00 18:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I see no link to the government of Palestine website. That a Fatah memorandum (according to an Israeli website) calls Jenin the capital of martyrs, bombers or whatever is not sufficient to attribute such a name to the palestinian people. It is neither the official name nor commonly used by Palestinians according to any credible source.
I stand by my above statement, which has not been addressed that this is simply an exercise of well poisoning and word twisting so as to make Jenin's citizens appear as terrorists and collectively responsible for their own deaths.
In any case, it is absolutely unnacceptable that such an irrelevant point be included in the lead section.
Im erasing this until some valid response to my arguments is offered. By the way, setting up a politicised clique in this article, stifling debate is not the way to proceed in wikipedia. -- Burgas00 20:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok maybe I'm being hasty. I'll look into the source in next few days and discuss.-- Burgas00 23:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Burgas is spot-on. The biased presentation of background information in the lede was designed to "soften up" the reader and predispose them to agree with the Israeli assault. And the free use of lurid terminology whenever it impugns the Palestinians is totally uncalled for. We have not quoted, for example, Peter Hansen expressing his "pure horror" at the results of the attack, which was extensively reported, but we're shoving this disputed and less notable claim right into the lede! Eleland 02:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
comment - i suggest you go over all the refs for this instead of trying to defame a single source and claim, in unison, that it's a false presentation. as for the rest of your uncivil comment, User:G-Dett, i note you that it is inborderline soapbox and i do believe that i've already issues a last warning on such activity. [12] should i understand that this assertion that i'm "enthusiastic about pro-Israel blogs and lobby groups" to be an honest mistake or should i pursue the case on the AN/I considering i've given due notices ? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 04:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I took Jaakobou's suggestion to read the cited source, and oh my! how interesting! Source 1 doesn't make the claim at all! The string "martyr" appears thrice, in the following contexts: "Under the slabs of fallen masonry in Jenin is a new legend of martyrdom and heroism," "the camp's activists, drawn from the Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad and Hamas," and "they were interred together in Jenin's Martyrs' Cemetery." And the other source is a single sentence tacked on to the end of a BBC report, "according to Israel's count". We know very well where they got the claim from - the single document already cited. Thanks for playing, kids. Eleland 15:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm back after that brief arrest.:-) As far as I'm concerned, the credibility and validity of sources is of little importance regarding my qualms with the phrase in the lead section. I have already expressed as clearly as I can why I am against it. However, if objections to credibility do exist, all the more reason to eliminate it.
I honestly think that its now time that we eliminate this line, considering such widespread and reasoned opposition to it. Jaakobou, I think recommend rather than responding by accusing me of sockpuppeteering and "suspicious behaviour" on my talk page, that you are flexible on this point. We all have political agendas on wikipedia, but we have to set limits on ourselves regarding what is fair and what is rational. -- Burgas00 20:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with any attempt to resolve disputes. But I dont remember the word "indiscriminate" being used in the lead section. -- Burgas00 22:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked the following users for 24 hours for disruption on this article and others, each user should have a message on there talk page explaining why they were blocked:
Folks, you guys should know better then to revert war all day, please discuss the issues here rather then trying to get your chosen version to be the top revision. As you all seem to have a decent grasp on the english language, I expect that we all are mature enough to discuss here on the talk page rather then disrupting the article. I would suggest that all of you look at WP:1RR as a possible ideal that may help you folks come to a compromise. Failure to stop editwarring will result in longer blocks. I wish you all best of luck in resolving this issue, and remind all of you that there are alternatives such as WP:MEDCAB and WP:MEDCOM and even a request for comment, use them. —— Eagle101 Need help? 03:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is blowing out of proportion. First Armon and me are blocked and now the page is blocked for 4 days? -- Burgas00 20:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
In response to a request at WP:RFPP and an ongoing edit war, I've protected the page for 4 days. Please use the time to try to reach a consensus on disputed issues. If a consensus is reached before the 4 days are up, you can request un-protection at WP:RFPP. As always, the article was protected without regard to its existing state, and the protection in no way endorses the current version as "correct". MastCell Talk 18:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
"
Palestinians refugees" in lede to "
Palestinian refugees", please.
Of course, the whole exposition of Deir Yassin, etc is just a misguided WP:POINT attempt to expose the undue weight on suicide bombing in the next sentence, but we can work with that after the protection expires. Eleland 12:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
...is anyone going to take up the task of stopping this edit war permanently? The most serious effort I'm aware of is HG's attempt to clarify editing issues, so we can move smoothly into formal mediation, but it seems to be a little stale right now.
So let me ask a few basic questions.
Eleland 13:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
after the massive success of closing the first issue raised on the dispute tag conflict [15] in this subsection.
i'm opening a second subsection regarding the second complaint about the reliability of the definitiveness on the statement that the Palestinin Authority claimed 56 were dead.
please leave your commentary regarding the source/s on the related discussion section. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 17:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
new: opened a RSN here. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 20:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion. Here's an idea, it's not intended to favor any particular side here. Since there still seems to be disagreement here on how to report Jenin deaths, I'm wondering if you might put together a concise table of the various contested sources and their data? The table would be for Talk or a Talk subpage -- I doubt it's needed for the article, though here's an
example of such a table. The table could list the Source, Publication Date, Other citation info (e.g., author & page #), Data on deaths/casualties, Basis for data (e.g., interviews), Notes (e.g., key quotes, a note about other reports by this Source elsewhere in the Table). Even if you all come to a quick resolution for now, such a Table might provide documentation to inform future generations of Wikipedia editors. Move or refactor this idea as needed. Thanks.
HG |
Talk 03:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC) :Note. This suggestion moved from above. So far, there's been one direct response by PR, excerpted below. Let me know if this slight refactoring isn't clear.
HG |
Talk
18:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
This is the summing up (by me, PR) of the RfC on the use of CAMERA. The floodgates of partisan contribution that swamped this RfC were opened by a very experienced editor later found to be running long-standing sock-puppets and using them to edit-war. But two and a half uninvolved editors did participate and were pretty definite about their opinions.
comment by jaakobou - (1) i disagree that Number57 is only semi-invovled, but that's not the main issue. (2) i agree 100% that camera should be used with great care, however, in this case, we've validated about 46 out of 50 citations, so there's really no reason to believe anything to be false... if there is a certain unvalidated quote which concerns you, you can bring it up and i'll do my best to validate it. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
has nothing to do with the actual battle of Jenin and simply adds to the confusion
"Palestinian refugees living in the camp have been denied the right of return or compensation for the confiscation of their property by Israel. Zionist terrorist groups, such as Irgun and Lehi (group) (also known as the Stern Gang) played a major role in achieving Israeli independence, and the massacre at Deir Yassin and at other locations where civilians were targeted were successful in instilling terror in the indigenous non-Jewish population and which motivated them to flee."
All of that is unnecesary and belongs in a different article Drsmoo 05:13, 17 September 2007 (UTC)