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Is it necessary to say in the lede that "The Battle of Beit Hanoun is an ongoing battle ... taking place in Beit Hanoun"? It seems a bit repetitive to me, is there a better way of phrasing this or is it Wiki standard to phrase it this way? SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 04:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Arguing with a non-EC editor. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I think the neutrality of this article is heavily contested. Actually it is more like a piece of Al Jazeera propaganda machine website. It says Israelis are withdrawn from beit hanoun, which is certainly wrong and also it says Beit hanoun become depopulated, then says people returns to the town, paradox. The fact is that 252nd infantry division which is the combat division, evacuated the city after fully Israeli victory and hand over the city to the Gaza Division of IDF. The city now under Israeli control and the result of battle is certainly Israeli victory. Also on map description it says "claimed" Israeli advance, but this "claimed" is not exist for Hamas' side. Somebody should correct this. AmSiDeAth ( talk) 12:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
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This is specifcially for the northern axis of gaza. In December, when israel had just withdrawn from beit hanoun, i labelled the battle "inconclusive" as the withdrawal seemed voluntary with a weakened hamas in the town. However the palestinian militants seem rooted in their towns and have even attacked israeli forces stationed east of beit hanoun readily. In this case, would it not be a clear vicotry for the militants as israeli forces have failed to clear the towns? I will try to discuss before changing The Great Mule of Eupatoria ( talk) 14:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
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I would like reword the article and change the words Hamas says, to Hamas claims. I believe Hamas says (albeit true as they are "saying") paints the wrong picture as if these claims are facts. Nowhere have we seen destroyed Merkava tanks. I believe the article would be better worded as "Hamas claims." As these are in fact claims.
claims 1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
^Evidence provided above. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 23:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
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"In spite of this, clashes continued in the town with Israeli forces retreating on the 24th of December"
^ 4th line of the first paragraph. I am proposing a change of "retreating" to "withdrawing."
Britannica Dictionary definition of RETREAT 1
Britannica Dictionary definition of WITHDRAWAL 1 [count] a : an act of moving something away or taking something away The general authorized the withdrawal of troops from the fields. a withdrawal of support b : an act of ending your involvement in something He announced his withdrawal from the campaign. [=announced that he would no longer be involved in the campaign]
It is evidently a IDF withdrawal. The editor who wrote that knows what narrative they are attempting to construct with the use of retreat. The use of the word retreat here is used as a connotation, in an attempt to construct the narrative that the IDF have suffered a military defeat.
Total lack of neutrality and a clear bias shown. Egregious wording in an attempt to construct a narrative in which the IDF have been handed a military defeat at the hands of Hamas. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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"On 15 November, Hamas announced that it destroyed four Israeli vehicles with Yasin 105 rocket propelled grenades in Beit Hanoun."
I am proposing that announced be changed into claims.
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
Announced has the connotation of that which is being announced, is factual information. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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The IDF claimed to have advanced beyond the city on or prior to 12 November, and it released a video showing the IDF Harel Brigade operating south of Beit Hanoun.
I am proposing a change from "claimed" to "announced".
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
Evidence was produced of the IDF Harel Brigade operating south of Beit Hanoun. Evidently they have advanced beyond the city.
With evidence produced it is no longer a "claim"
Claim is used here by the editor in another attempt to paint a false narrative of a Hamas military victory.
Once again, egregious editing on this page. A clear bias is shown with repeated attempts to minimize IDF successes. There are repeated attempts on this page to use "claims" for the IDF, whereas it is the opposite for Hamas alleged successes.
Evidence of bias;
The Al-Qassam Brigades said that it detonated an anti-personnel improvised explosive device (IED) targeting IDF forces sheltering in a house in Beit Hanoun.
Al-Qassam brigade "said" IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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On 31 October, Israeli forces claimed to have advanced into the outskirts of Beit Hanoun to conduct clearing operations, in an attempt to besiege Gaza City.[14]
This sentence needs to be reworded.
This is my proposed change, remove the words "claimed to have advanced"
"On 31 October, Israeli forces advanced into the outskirts of Beit Hanoun to conduct clearing operations, in an attempt to besiege Gaza City.[14]"
This sentence is cited with this article, https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/01/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-israeli-forces-advance-in-to-beit-hanoun.
Excerpt from said article;
"as of 31 October, Israeli forces advanced into Beit Hanoun in the northeastern Gaza Strip to conduct clearing operations and extended their positions along the coastal line in the northwestern Gaza Strip."
It is not a claim that they advanced.
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
More evidence of IDF advance;
"A second point at which Israeli forces appear to have entered Gaza is from the northeastern corner of the Strip near the town of Beit Hanoun, according to footage and satellite imagery. Video distributed by the Israeli army and geolocated by CNN shows dozens of soldiers advancing on foot across sandy terrain and, in a different clip, a bulldozer pushing through sandy soil to create a lane free from IEDs (improvised explosive devices)."
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-31-23/index.html
IdontreadonlyLEAD (
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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17:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Arguing with non-EC editors. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
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I just keep seeing people make biased edits in all these pages of this war. The IDF took over Beit Hanoun and disbanded the local battalion from fighting like an orderly battalion. However, they withdrew since everything was destroyed. Then, later it was reported that PIJ launched a rocket from there. I think it should be in status of ongoing on the main battle. רונלד15 ( talk) 14:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
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The status previously read: Main Battle: Palestinian victory
[1]
[2] Incursions: ongoing
. I edited this
here to Ongoing
. My edit summary reads: Failed verification. Sources do not mention Beit Hanoun let alone "victory". Please don't try to write the article in the infobox
- ie the claim is not supported by the refs cited nor is it supported by the body of the article.
This was reverted by
The Great Mule of Eupatoria withe the edit summary: I have literally put sources both verifying Israeli withdrawal and the continued control of militants, how is that not a victory? Do I really need to drag the sources from the battle section
, then two additional references were added with the edit summary: Me when I’m in a “admit Israel lost a battle” and my opponent is a Wikipedia editor
so that it now reads as follows:
Aljazeera mentions ... withdrawal of the 13th battalion of the Golani Brigade ...
but does not mention Beit Hanoun. Roya News reports: the Israeli occupation army withdrew from Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip.
Neither mention defeat, victory or that the withdrawal was forced by Hamas. What we do know is that the IDF came, it wreaked death and destruction, it left the city and took up positions outside the city, some Hamas came back and fighting has continued. Withdrawal and retreat are not synonymous. While a retreat or forced withdrawal might be construed as defeat, the sources are not telling us this. Labeling this as a Palestinian victory on the basis that the IDF chose to withdraw and some Hamas came back is an editor's conclusion or opinion. It is not what sources are telling us. It is
WP:SYNTH and/or
WP:OR. Furthermore, we don't usually declare a victor at half-time (ie while the battle is still ongoing). We wait until the sources tell us the fighting is over and, if there is a result where one side has been called the victor in a consensus of
WP:RSs, then we should write the body of the article to reflect this and then populate the result parameter.
Cinderella157 (
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I want to make this crystal clear, the next editor who edit wars over this is getting blocked. Start an RFC, discuss it thoroughly, do whatever, but don't touch it without consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
References
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
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Is it necessary to say in the lede that "The Battle of Beit Hanoun is an ongoing battle ... taking place in Beit Hanoun"? It seems a bit repetitive to me, is there a better way of phrasing this or is it Wiki standard to phrase it this way? SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 04:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Arguing with a non-EC editor. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I think the neutrality of this article is heavily contested. Actually it is more like a piece of Al Jazeera propaganda machine website. It says Israelis are withdrawn from beit hanoun, which is certainly wrong and also it says Beit hanoun become depopulated, then says people returns to the town, paradox. The fact is that 252nd infantry division which is the combat division, evacuated the city after fully Israeli victory and hand over the city to the Gaza Division of IDF. The city now under Israeli control and the result of battle is certainly Israeli victory. Also on map description it says "claimed" Israeli advance, but this "claimed" is not exist for Hamas' side. Somebody should correct this. AmSiDeAth ( talk) 12:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
|
This is specifcially for the northern axis of gaza. In December, when israel had just withdrawn from beit hanoun, i labelled the battle "inconclusive" as the withdrawal seemed voluntary with a weakened hamas in the town. However the palestinian militants seem rooted in their towns and have even attacked israeli forces stationed east of beit hanoun readily. In this case, would it not be a clear vicotry for the militants as israeli forces have failed to clear the towns? I will try to discuss before changing The Great Mule of Eupatoria ( talk) 14:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like reword the article and change the words Hamas says, to Hamas claims. I believe Hamas says (albeit true as they are "saying") paints the wrong picture as if these claims are facts. Nowhere have we seen destroyed Merkava tanks. I believe the article would be better worded as "Hamas claims." As these are in fact claims.
claims 1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
^Evidence provided above. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 23:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"In spite of this, clashes continued in the town with Israeli forces retreating on the 24th of December"
^ 4th line of the first paragraph. I am proposing a change of "retreating" to "withdrawing."
Britannica Dictionary definition of RETREAT 1
Britannica Dictionary definition of WITHDRAWAL 1 [count] a : an act of moving something away or taking something away The general authorized the withdrawal of troops from the fields. a withdrawal of support b : an act of ending your involvement in something He announced his withdrawal from the campaign. [=announced that he would no longer be involved in the campaign]
It is evidently a IDF withdrawal. The editor who wrote that knows what narrative they are attempting to construct with the use of retreat. The use of the word retreat here is used as a connotation, in an attempt to construct the narrative that the IDF have suffered a military defeat.
Total lack of neutrality and a clear bias shown. Egregious wording in an attempt to construct a narrative in which the IDF have been handed a military defeat at the hands of Hamas. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk)
17:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"On 15 November, Hamas announced that it destroyed four Israeli vehicles with Yasin 105 rocket propelled grenades in Beit Hanoun."
I am proposing that announced be changed into claims.
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
Announced has the connotation of that which is being announced, is factual information. IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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The IDF claimed to have advanced beyond the city on or prior to 12 November, and it released a video showing the IDF Harel Brigade operating south of Beit Hanoun.
I am proposing a change from "claimed" to "announced".
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
Evidence was produced of the IDF Harel Brigade operating south of Beit Hanoun. Evidently they have advanced beyond the city.
With evidence produced it is no longer a "claim"
Claim is used here by the editor in another attempt to paint a false narrative of a Hamas military victory.
Once again, egregious editing on this page. A clear bias is shown with repeated attempts to minimize IDF successes. There are repeated attempts on this page to use "claims" for the IDF, whereas it is the opposite for Hamas alleged successes.
Evidence of bias;
The Al-Qassam Brigades said that it detonated an anti-personnel improvised explosive device (IED) targeting IDF forces sheltering in a house in Beit Hanoun.
Al-Qassam brigade "said" IdontreadonlyLEAD ( talk) 08:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk)
17:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)![]() | This
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On 31 October, Israeli forces claimed to have advanced into the outskirts of Beit Hanoun to conduct clearing operations, in an attempt to besiege Gaza City.[14]
This sentence needs to be reworded.
This is my proposed change, remove the words "claimed to have advanced"
"On 31 October, Israeli forces advanced into the outskirts of Beit Hanoun to conduct clearing operations, in an attempt to besiege Gaza City.[14]"
This sentence is cited with this article, https://www.euronews.com/2023/11/01/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-israeli-forces-advance-in-to-beit-hanoun.
Excerpt from said article;
"as of 31 October, Israeli forces advanced into Beit Hanoun in the northeastern Gaza Strip to conduct clearing operations and extended their positions along the coastal line in the northwestern Gaza Strip."
It is not a claim that they advanced.
Claims; to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/claim
More evidence of IDF advance;
"A second point at which Israeli forces appear to have entered Gaza is from the northeastern corner of the Strip near the town of Beit Hanoun, according to footage and satellite imagery. Video distributed by the Israeli army and geolocated by CNN shows dozens of soldiers advancing on foot across sandy terrain and, in a different clip, a bulldozer pushing through sandy soil to create a lane free from IEDs (improvised explosive devices)."
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-10-31-23/index.html
IdontreadonlyLEAD (
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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17:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Arguing with non-EC editors. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I just keep seeing people make biased edits in all these pages of this war. The IDF took over Beit Hanoun and disbanded the local battalion from fighting like an orderly battalion. However, they withdrew since everything was destroyed. Then, later it was reported that PIJ launched a rocket from there. I think it should be in status of ongoing on the main battle. רונלד15 ( talk) 14:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
|
The status previously read: Main Battle: Palestinian victory
[1]
[2] Incursions: ongoing
. I edited this
here to Ongoing
. My edit summary reads: Failed verification. Sources do not mention Beit Hanoun let alone "victory". Please don't try to write the article in the infobox
- ie the claim is not supported by the refs cited nor is it supported by the body of the article.
This was reverted by
The Great Mule of Eupatoria withe the edit summary: I have literally put sources both verifying Israeli withdrawal and the continued control of militants, how is that not a victory? Do I really need to drag the sources from the battle section
, then two additional references were added with the edit summary: Me when I’m in a “admit Israel lost a battle” and my opponent is a Wikipedia editor
so that it now reads as follows:
Aljazeera mentions ... withdrawal of the 13th battalion of the Golani Brigade ...
but does not mention Beit Hanoun. Roya News reports: the Israeli occupation army withdrew from Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip.
Neither mention defeat, victory or that the withdrawal was forced by Hamas. What we do know is that the IDF came, it wreaked death and destruction, it left the city and took up positions outside the city, some Hamas came back and fighting has continued. Withdrawal and retreat are not synonymous. While a retreat or forced withdrawal might be construed as defeat, the sources are not telling us this. Labeling this as a Palestinian victory on the basis that the IDF chose to withdraw and some Hamas came back is an editor's conclusion or opinion. It is not what sources are telling us. It is
WP:SYNTH and/or
WP:OR. Furthermore, we don't usually declare a victor at half-time (ie while the battle is still ongoing). We wait until the sources tell us the fighting is over and, if there is a result where one side has been called the victor in a consensus of
WP:RSs, then we should write the body of the article to reflect this and then populate the result parameter.
Cinderella157 (
talk)
08:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
'''[[
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10:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
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11:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
I want to make this crystal clear, the next editor who edit wars over this is getting blocked. Start an RFC, discuss it thoroughly, do whatever, but don't touch it without consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 17:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
References