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Should this article not be put under Battles of Ireland, considering it happened in Ireland, rather than under Battles of England?
Its is the category of battles of the williamite war, which is a sub category of battles of Ireland.
On another subject, who is assessing these articles? This one has been awarded "start class" meaning "not useless" but still very poor. I find this difficult to understand as I think this article gives a pretty full account of the battle of Aughrim in the space provided, a summary of its strategic importance and is illustrated. What more does it need?
Jdorney 19:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I share your puzzlement. The treatment given to the battle is reasonably comprehensive, and considerably better than many others I have come across in these pages. Rcpaterson 02:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The defeat of the Jacobites at Aughrim was, very much, an Irish battle, in that it spelt the defeat of the Gaelic nation--one of the reasons why it was so fondly remembered by Orangemen. The events at Limerick were mere consequences of this defeat! With Sarsfield gone, and many of his remaining followers also exiled, the Gaelic society and Gaelic culture collapsed. The Irish language became the language of a downtrodden peasantry. The English Williamite victors introduced the Penal Laws--probably, with the exception of laws passed to persecute the Jews--the most savage body of repressive legislation enacted in Europe. Their objective was to reduce the Catholic Irish to abject misery. Indeed, the repeal of the last of the Penal Laws only occured when the Catholic Kerry barrister, Daniel O' Connell, took his seat in the English House of Commons in 1829.
I realize that Wikipedia cannot be responsible for what is written on other sites, but I would like to place on record that I have objected strongly to the concluding sentence on the BBC's History site Williamite Wars: Battle of Aughrim, which states "a century of peace ensued in Ireland" http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/aughrim.shtml. It ensued simply because the Native Irish were at the mercy of a system of viciously repressive legislation.
It is to Wikipedia's credit that an Irish poet is quoted in the main article here. The poet, himself guardian of a hereditary function, acted, amongst other things, as genealogist, cementing the Gaelic princely social structures. Yeats was to take two lines of one of the last, but one of the greatest Irish poets, Aogán Ó Rathaille, and express them in English:
And there is an old beggar wandering in his pride His fathers served their fathers before Christ was crucified.(1)
From henceforth, the Irish poet would be a farm laborer, like the wild Eoin Ruadh Ó Súilleabhán, or to invoke another Yeatsian phrase, a beggar singing to beggars, like Antaine Ó Raifteirí (Yeats's Blind Raftery). O'Connell, himself, has been called "King of the Beggars." For the Catholic Irish were often less prosperous than beggars and it can be argued that the Penal Laws, although repealed, had given rise to social conditions that were one of the causes of the Great Irish Famine of the 1840's.
(1)Yeats, W. B. "The Curse of Cromwell" in The Poems, Revised. New York: Macmillan Publihing Company, 1989, p.304.-- PeadarMaguidhir 19:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that you are overstating your case. No one denies that there was oppressive legislation aimed at Protestants who were not members of the Established Church, the Church of England. That is one of the primary reasons why many Presbyterians emigrated to the American colonies, where, be it noted, they identified themselves as Scotch-Irish. But there can be no comparison between the legislation aimed at this group of Protestants and the Penal Laws, the objective of which was to reduce the Catholic Irish to such a state of misery that the process was effectively an effort at a long and agonizing genocide. (The Great Famine--even though it occurred after the repeal of these laws--was caused, to a large extent, by the effects of the Penal Laws on Catholic Irish society. Consequently, the process of genocide was almost successful.) I have no difficulty in agreeing that laws aimed at Presbyterians were unjust. But whereas (to quote your own example) Presbyterian marriages were not recognized, the very existence of Catholics was not recognized.
Also, we all agree that this battle can also be seen in a European context, with power struggles allied to religious issues, as was the case with so many European wars. (Great powers, since history was first recorded, liked to settle their differences, whenever possible, by battles on someone else's territory.) However what you describe as "a much larger European bid for supremacy by the Roman Catholic French king" is again overstating the case.
Finally, by the "Native Irish," I mean those who lived in Ireland prior to the Plantations, as well as their descendants. I believe that this is a precise term, rather than an offensive term. PeadarMaguidhir 14:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
A prayer for them all, freind, family and foe. Fergananim ( talk) 13:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
This article suffers from the same calendric inaccuracies as does Battle of the Boyne.
See Talk:Battle of the Boyne#Gregorian/Julian dates for more commentary. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The points made above by J of O are correct. There are ten days difference. Once again, this is clear from the header of the letters written by Godard van R (the commanding officer of W & M's forces at land & sea in Ireland) to his father. There were ten days difference in the New Style and Old Style calanders. Events in continental western Europe are usually reported in English language histories as happening under the Gregorian calendar. For example the Battle of Blenheim is always given as 13 August 1704. However confusion occurs when an event affects both. For example William III of England arrived at Brixham in England on 5 November (Julian calendar, or Old Style, OS), after setting sail from the Netherlands on 11 November (Gregorian calendar, or New Style, NS). In addition to the modification of mean length of the calendar year from 365.25 days to 365.2425 days, the Gregorian calendar was required to deal with the fact that the error due to the difference between these lengths (10.8 minutes) had been accumulating steadily. Due mostly to this discrepancy, between AD 325 (when the Roman Catholic Church thought the First Council of Nicaea had fixed the vernal equinox on 21 March), and the time of Gregory's edict in 1582, the vernal equinox had moved backward in the calendar, until it was occurring on about 11 March, 10 days early. The Gregorian calendar therefore began by dropping 10 calendar days, to synchronise the calendar and seasons again. This has been mentioned above by other commentators in the past, so it is indeed odd to notice that it was switched back once more by s.o. to 11 days... someone who decided not to leave a post explaining their preference for opting to believe this(for themselves) but also one who makes attempts to convince others of their delusion -- the 'real' attempt of which is to misplace the date in the Julian calendar, or Old Style OS, upon which the skirmish along the Boyne river took place, onto the date which is properly associated with the all-deciding Battle of Aughrim. Barentsz ( talk) 10:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Which areas/clans would the Scots (mentioned in article) who participated in the Williamite side have been of? Linking the term with more details on that would be great - was this formal participation by areas/regiments/clans, as written without extra detail it brings to mind a "national" participation which would be a modernism. Was this just individual highlander/lowlander mercinary participation, were they in a regiment organized by nationality or just merged into other? Maybe I've got to do some more digging on that, but again would be nice if that was linked. If I find an answer I will do that link. - CM
A suggestion: it would help if the article had a map showing showing not only the location of Aughrim but also of the main provinces, places, and rivers mentioned in the text. -- Frans Fowler ( talk) 04:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Unhelpfully, the paragraph about the M6 raises the spectre that the motorway plans would adversely affect the heritage value of the battlefield site, but fails to mention whether the plans were changed as a result, or what the final impact is considered to be. A further sentence is required. Deipnosophista ( talk) 08:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
The article seems to give an upper estimate of 7000 killed. Yet the wikipedia page for the Battle of Towton gives a lowest estimate of 9000 killed. So how is Aughrim "possibly the bloodiest ever fought in the British Isles" or is there a chance we think that those ranges for those killed may be incorrect. 82.11.163.59 ( talk) 18:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
I see the 'flag salad' is starting to creep into this article too, but other than William (as King of England and, nominally, Ireland), James and the French, would anyone else actually count as belligerents? The Huguenots were all in foreign service, they weren't actually a 'belligerent'. Svejk74 ( talk) 13:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
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Should this article not be put under Battles of Ireland, considering it happened in Ireland, rather than under Battles of England?
Its is the category of battles of the williamite war, which is a sub category of battles of Ireland.
On another subject, who is assessing these articles? This one has been awarded "start class" meaning "not useless" but still very poor. I find this difficult to understand as I think this article gives a pretty full account of the battle of Aughrim in the space provided, a summary of its strategic importance and is illustrated. What more does it need?
Jdorney 19:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I share your puzzlement. The treatment given to the battle is reasonably comprehensive, and considerably better than many others I have come across in these pages. Rcpaterson 02:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The defeat of the Jacobites at Aughrim was, very much, an Irish battle, in that it spelt the defeat of the Gaelic nation--one of the reasons why it was so fondly remembered by Orangemen. The events at Limerick were mere consequences of this defeat! With Sarsfield gone, and many of his remaining followers also exiled, the Gaelic society and Gaelic culture collapsed. The Irish language became the language of a downtrodden peasantry. The English Williamite victors introduced the Penal Laws--probably, with the exception of laws passed to persecute the Jews--the most savage body of repressive legislation enacted in Europe. Their objective was to reduce the Catholic Irish to abject misery. Indeed, the repeal of the last of the Penal Laws only occured when the Catholic Kerry barrister, Daniel O' Connell, took his seat in the English House of Commons in 1829.
I realize that Wikipedia cannot be responsible for what is written on other sites, but I would like to place on record that I have objected strongly to the concluding sentence on the BBC's History site Williamite Wars: Battle of Aughrim, which states "a century of peace ensued in Ireland" http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/aughrim.shtml. It ensued simply because the Native Irish were at the mercy of a system of viciously repressive legislation.
It is to Wikipedia's credit that an Irish poet is quoted in the main article here. The poet, himself guardian of a hereditary function, acted, amongst other things, as genealogist, cementing the Gaelic princely social structures. Yeats was to take two lines of one of the last, but one of the greatest Irish poets, Aogán Ó Rathaille, and express them in English:
And there is an old beggar wandering in his pride His fathers served their fathers before Christ was crucified.(1)
From henceforth, the Irish poet would be a farm laborer, like the wild Eoin Ruadh Ó Súilleabhán, or to invoke another Yeatsian phrase, a beggar singing to beggars, like Antaine Ó Raifteirí (Yeats's Blind Raftery). O'Connell, himself, has been called "King of the Beggars." For the Catholic Irish were often less prosperous than beggars and it can be argued that the Penal Laws, although repealed, had given rise to social conditions that were one of the causes of the Great Irish Famine of the 1840's.
(1)Yeats, W. B. "The Curse of Cromwell" in The Poems, Revised. New York: Macmillan Publihing Company, 1989, p.304.-- PeadarMaguidhir 19:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I believe that you are overstating your case. No one denies that there was oppressive legislation aimed at Protestants who were not members of the Established Church, the Church of England. That is one of the primary reasons why many Presbyterians emigrated to the American colonies, where, be it noted, they identified themselves as Scotch-Irish. But there can be no comparison between the legislation aimed at this group of Protestants and the Penal Laws, the objective of which was to reduce the Catholic Irish to such a state of misery that the process was effectively an effort at a long and agonizing genocide. (The Great Famine--even though it occurred after the repeal of these laws--was caused, to a large extent, by the effects of the Penal Laws on Catholic Irish society. Consequently, the process of genocide was almost successful.) I have no difficulty in agreeing that laws aimed at Presbyterians were unjust. But whereas (to quote your own example) Presbyterian marriages were not recognized, the very existence of Catholics was not recognized.
Also, we all agree that this battle can also be seen in a European context, with power struggles allied to religious issues, as was the case with so many European wars. (Great powers, since history was first recorded, liked to settle their differences, whenever possible, by battles on someone else's territory.) However what you describe as "a much larger European bid for supremacy by the Roman Catholic French king" is again overstating the case.
Finally, by the "Native Irish," I mean those who lived in Ireland prior to the Plantations, as well as their descendants. I believe that this is a precise term, rather than an offensive term. PeadarMaguidhir 14:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
A prayer for them all, freind, family and foe. Fergananim ( talk) 13:24, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
This article suffers from the same calendric inaccuracies as does Battle of the Boyne.
See Talk:Battle of the Boyne#Gregorian/Julian dates for more commentary. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The points made above by J of O are correct. There are ten days difference. Once again, this is clear from the header of the letters written by Godard van R (the commanding officer of W & M's forces at land & sea in Ireland) to his father. There were ten days difference in the New Style and Old Style calanders. Events in continental western Europe are usually reported in English language histories as happening under the Gregorian calendar. For example the Battle of Blenheim is always given as 13 August 1704. However confusion occurs when an event affects both. For example William III of England arrived at Brixham in England on 5 November (Julian calendar, or Old Style, OS), after setting sail from the Netherlands on 11 November (Gregorian calendar, or New Style, NS). In addition to the modification of mean length of the calendar year from 365.25 days to 365.2425 days, the Gregorian calendar was required to deal with the fact that the error due to the difference between these lengths (10.8 minutes) had been accumulating steadily. Due mostly to this discrepancy, between AD 325 (when the Roman Catholic Church thought the First Council of Nicaea had fixed the vernal equinox on 21 March), and the time of Gregory's edict in 1582, the vernal equinox had moved backward in the calendar, until it was occurring on about 11 March, 10 days early. The Gregorian calendar therefore began by dropping 10 calendar days, to synchronise the calendar and seasons again. This has been mentioned above by other commentators in the past, so it is indeed odd to notice that it was switched back once more by s.o. to 11 days... someone who decided not to leave a post explaining their preference for opting to believe this(for themselves) but also one who makes attempts to convince others of their delusion -- the 'real' attempt of which is to misplace the date in the Julian calendar, or Old Style OS, upon which the skirmish along the Boyne river took place, onto the date which is properly associated with the all-deciding Battle of Aughrim. Barentsz ( talk) 10:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Which areas/clans would the Scots (mentioned in article) who participated in the Williamite side have been of? Linking the term with more details on that would be great - was this formal participation by areas/regiments/clans, as written without extra detail it brings to mind a "national" participation which would be a modernism. Was this just individual highlander/lowlander mercinary participation, were they in a regiment organized by nationality or just merged into other? Maybe I've got to do some more digging on that, but again would be nice if that was linked. If I find an answer I will do that link. - CM
A suggestion: it would help if the article had a map showing showing not only the location of Aughrim but also of the main provinces, places, and rivers mentioned in the text. -- Frans Fowler ( talk) 04:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Unhelpfully, the paragraph about the M6 raises the spectre that the motorway plans would adversely affect the heritage value of the battlefield site, but fails to mention whether the plans were changed as a result, or what the final impact is considered to be. A further sentence is required. Deipnosophista ( talk) 08:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
The article seems to give an upper estimate of 7000 killed. Yet the wikipedia page for the Battle of Towton gives a lowest estimate of 9000 killed. So how is Aughrim "possibly the bloodiest ever fought in the British Isles" or is there a chance we think that those ranges for those killed may be incorrect. 82.11.163.59 ( talk) 18:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
I see the 'flag salad' is starting to creep into this article too, but other than William (as King of England and, nominally, Ireland), James and the French, would anyone else actually count as belligerents? The Huguenots were all in foreign service, they weren't actually a 'belligerent'. Svejk74 ( talk) 13:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)