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1914-1918.net divides the Battle of Arras as follows:
Subsidiary actions are listed under each of these ( http://www.1914-1918.net/bat18.htm ). I think that might be a useful structure for us to start with(?) Grant | Talk 04:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
i have added on to the section on the Second Battle of Bullecourt to include the fact that this Village WAS taken, which to me looked unfinished or not properly explained. Bullseye30 ( talk) 20:44, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Was the Battle of Arras an actual British Victory. Many sources and authors, including Ted Barris and Pierre Burton and another British author whom I can't remember the name of right now, have labeled the Battle of Arras as a tactical and strategic stalemate, with the only real brightspot being Vimy Ridge [4 Canadian Divisions and 1 British Brigade]. Could someone double check this. I'd always thought that the whole campaign ended as another stalemate.
Climie.ca 16:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC) Cam
Than maybe we should put it in a way like the Somme was, where it was a tactical stalemate, but a strategic allied/british victory, since that's basically what every major battle of WWI was anyways...Just a thought... Climie.ca 03:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I've looked this article over, and I believe that this article is good enough to be classified as GA. I've placed it on the nominee page. this is an extremely well written article, and many people have obviously put a great deal of work into it. Climie.ca 23:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I finalized the GA review for the article. I had earlier put the GA nomination on hold for some NPOV issues. Overall findings:
Passing GA. Added the article to Wikipedia:Good_articles#Conflicts.2C_battles_and_military_exercises. -- Drieakko 17:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I am currently doing a copy edit of this page. I have noticed one particular problem pop up repeatedly: "this" is used without a reference or an unclear referent. Perhaps one of the editors might go through the page and fix this problem. It is hard to fix as a copy editor unless the referent is explicitly clear. Awadewit | talk 04:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Another small issue: sometimes "counterattack" is hyphenated and sometimes it is not. The editors should decide whether or not to use the hyphen and then apply the decision consistently. Awadewit | talk 04:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
There is some diction in this article that seems to repeat a lot (e.g. "attack," "planned," "assault"). These should be replaced with a greater variety of words. My military diction is not very wide, so I wasn't exactly sure what to use. Awadewit | talk 04:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
After doing the copy edit, I have a couple of comments on the article (which I thought was, in general, very good):
In paragraph order:
I don't want to be overly picky either, I assure you. I just had someone opposing an FAC I prepared almost single-handedly on dashes and dates. Awadewit | talk 10:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations on getting the article to Featured status. I look forward to seeing it on the Main Page :) GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 16:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Cam 18:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just seen the recent page move. This was no doubt done in good faith but it is normal practice to discuss moves of mature pages on their talk page prior to doing them. The literature–including the source you edited (see Nicholson, Chapter 8, p 250) and the Canadian Veterans' Affairs fact sheet–unanimously calls it the "Battle of Arras". I strongly object to the page rename. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 17:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Should we mention the opening of the underground Carrière Wellington museum (on 15 Feb 2008) in this article? Here is a media release about it Jamie Mackay ( talk) 09:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmmm, so both sides sacked their commander. Falkenhausen for the defeat and Allenby for the success! Then Lossberg saved the day. I think this is contemporary propaganda. Could Falken' use 'elastic defence' on Vimy Ridge? Could elastic defence make a difference on the lower ground in the south? Did Falken' have his reserves too far back? If so did this preserve them from being caught in the bombardment? Had he held them closer could it be that he would have been blamed for losing them in the iniial British advance? Presumably defence of the Ridge was the German defensive 'schwerpunkt'. What resources did Falken' have left? Lossberg rolls up but so do lots of reinforcements which give him more means to hamper the British advance. Suspiciously good timing to put responsibility for a severe defeat on one man and responsibility for 'stabilising' the situation on another. Isn't this a common bureacratic dodge to contain accountability? This succeeds in stopping the British advance but only at the cost of expending German infantry and artillery at an unsustainable rate.
Falken' gets the sack for lack of hindsight, Allenby gets the sack to take the blame for high losses (which were inevitable, particularly once the attack continued for political reasons) and for the lack of a breakthrough which was never on (with the French army in turmoil and Nivelle getting Limoge perhaps Haig got his retaliation in first to forestall Mr George, like the sacking of Gough in 1918). So a long war goes on, consuming huge numbers of men and material and the leaders resort to strategems to evade the odium of the human cost of the policy of victory or bust. Allenby and Falken' become rhetorical casualties as the high command plays for time. Subsequent historians add to the misleading impression by using a 'breakthrough' or a 'manoeuvre' model anachronistically and marking generals accordingly. Surely the German high command reacted to the materialschlacht unleashed at Arras with horror and a sense that time was running out? Keith-264 ( talk) 12:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
They are questions leading to a hypothesis. Can you shed light on it? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Try harder [;-) or look at 'German Strategy and the Path to Verdun: Erich Von Falkenhayn and the Development of Attrition, 1870-1916' by RT Foley for a view of the war that challenges the 'mud, blood and poetry' school by incorporating scholarly work of the last 25 years or so. D G Herrmann and D Stevenson are also useful on the reality behind the short-war illusion and the fantasy of low casualties in industrial wars. Incorporating their views would substantially alter the 'beauty contest' approach to Great War generalship which (in my view) rests on anachronistic criteria. Thanks for replying Keith-264 ( talk) 13:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I see that in the box, "German Empire" is broken down in "Prussia" and "Bavaria", while in other places not. Is this right? Bavaria was not a separate entity at the time, like Canada and Australia were. 200.222.3.3 ( talk) 16:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I see no reference to Siegfried Sassoon's famous poem "The General" which makes a direct reference to the battle of Arras. Surely it is worth a mention here? Bjmullan ( talk) 23:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The Somme a 'costly failure'? A costly success surely? Which side was bled most grievously in 1916, the Entente or the Central Powers? The Austro-Hungarian army was nearly destroyed by Brusilov and the German strategy for victory in 1916 was left in tatters by the failure of the Verdun offensive to destroy France's offensive capacity and the unexpected success of Britain's new model army in forcing the Germans off the commanding ground north of the Somme while the Germans failed to do this to the French at Verdun. 'Win-lose' thinking seems to me to be unhelpful when the war was being fought on three fronts; 'cost-benefit' seems much more fruitful. All the contenders lost heavily in 1916 and Germany was least able to bear it. Keith-264 ( talk) 12:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The sections Creeping barrage and Counter Battery contain assorted errors. The CB one can be sorted out fairly easily (the description of flash spotting is utter tosh). The creeping barrage description seems to contain considerable poetic licence and misundstanding of artillery tactics. It appears that the authors are confused into thinking that all artillery fire was a creeping barrage or that all barrage was creeping. Nfe ( talk) 04:01, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
C.S. Lewis was not among the casualties of the spring 1917 Battle of Arras, nor even among those present. In his autobiographical "Surprised by Joy", Lewis says he arrived at the front on his 19th birthday in November 1917, "and was wounded at Mt. Bernenchon, near Lillers, in April, 1918." Bill Befort ( talk) 20:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think the result should say 'indecisive', this battle was an unmitigated success of British imperial forces. They made significant advances across the front and achieved all of their objectives; as well as making some significant progress in tactical doctrine. The only thing that was a failure was the French offensive Ben200 ( talk) 23:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC) True but this wasn't decisive, it was another battle which left the German army less able to withstand the next one. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Really? The front line at the end of the battle had been advanced most south of Arras. The Fifth Army mainly acted to hold German troops, while it was being depleted to reinforce the armies further north and the Second Army in Flanders. See sketch 23 OH 1917 I, p. 522. Keith-264 ( talk) 01:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"Although historians generally consider the battle a British victory, in the wider context of the front, it had very little impact on the strategic or tactical situation" shouldn't there be a reference to the Nivelle Offensive of which it was a part? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Added a "see also" for Capture of Oppy Wood to the paragraph on the 3rd Scarpe. Keith-264 ( talk) 11:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
It took a while to find the pages associated with the Nivelle Offensive but I have in mind making this page the main one about the development of the Allied strategy for early 1917 and the aftermath and the other pages Battle of Arras (1917), Second Battle of the Aisne, Battle of the Hills for the details of the military operations. I did a campaign boxes to tie the pages together. Arras is pretty complete but the other two suffer from lack of English sources. I've gleaned enough to double the material on each page and added material from Tactical development on the Western Front in 1917 but there's very little about the German defence of the Aisne. If anyone has suggestions for English-language sources I'd be grateful. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:11, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Found the details in the GOH but used sfn's as that's the only thing I know; change to parentheticals if desired. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:34, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
p.272 the losses of the used divisions had been heavy and had excelled of the German side by far. Till the end of April they amounted to 78,000 men, till the end of May another 64,000 men came, so that the total losses of the fights rose with Arras on 142,000, that is for every division used to the attack) see 416.2) German losses p. 276 and the following.
21-31 = 4,800. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Added material to the prelude and altered the header levels. There are deficiencies in the citations to some parts of the article, page numbers and dates are missing and one source looks unpublished (WO document). I'm not sure that some of the changes since the A class and featured status are good enough to retain the A though. Keith-264 ( talk) 10:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
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Added some detail from the OH about tunnelling but couldn't work out how to add notes using ref /ref so used efn }} instead, apols. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
It's quite been a while since I'd looked over this article however in reviewing it today I wonder whether it still meets the WP:FACR. I note that significant passages or paragraphs or cited by one source and whether summarize style is being effectively employed. I note there are quite a few instances of quoted text where summary text would suffice. I'm not sure if @ Roger Davies: has been by the article and I am wondering what the interest level is of making improvements vs. sending the article for Featured article review. Labattblueboy ( talk) 19:11, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
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This question might have an answer of a simple “No”. Should there be a ‘Notable casualties’ section, to include Norman Callaway? JDAWiseman ( talk) 16:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
If you can find some more -perhaps from both sides-Yes. Spinney Hill ( talk) 13:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC) There are two (one killed and one wounded) in the section on poetry and music towards the end. Spinney Hill ( talk) 13:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@ JDAWiseman: I couldn't disagree more. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
I've just added a further notable casualty (Scott Moncrieff) to the literary/music section. My feeling is that the human side of battles like these is often passed over in silence or with conventional regrets, while a reference to a person you might have heard about makes it a little more interesting - and allows cross-links to and from other Wikipedia pages. Of course, others might disagree. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 13:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
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1914-1918.net divides the Battle of Arras as follows:
Subsidiary actions are listed under each of these ( http://www.1914-1918.net/bat18.htm ). I think that might be a useful structure for us to start with(?) Grant | Talk 04:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
i have added on to the section on the Second Battle of Bullecourt to include the fact that this Village WAS taken, which to me looked unfinished or not properly explained. Bullseye30 ( talk) 20:44, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Was the Battle of Arras an actual British Victory. Many sources and authors, including Ted Barris and Pierre Burton and another British author whom I can't remember the name of right now, have labeled the Battle of Arras as a tactical and strategic stalemate, with the only real brightspot being Vimy Ridge [4 Canadian Divisions and 1 British Brigade]. Could someone double check this. I'd always thought that the whole campaign ended as another stalemate.
Climie.ca 16:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC) Cam
Than maybe we should put it in a way like the Somme was, where it was a tactical stalemate, but a strategic allied/british victory, since that's basically what every major battle of WWI was anyways...Just a thought... Climie.ca 03:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I've looked this article over, and I believe that this article is good enough to be classified as GA. I've placed it on the nominee page. this is an extremely well written article, and many people have obviously put a great deal of work into it. Climie.ca 23:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I finalized the GA review for the article. I had earlier put the GA nomination on hold for some NPOV issues. Overall findings:
Passing GA. Added the article to Wikipedia:Good_articles#Conflicts.2C_battles_and_military_exercises. -- Drieakko 17:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I am currently doing a copy edit of this page. I have noticed one particular problem pop up repeatedly: "this" is used without a reference or an unclear referent. Perhaps one of the editors might go through the page and fix this problem. It is hard to fix as a copy editor unless the referent is explicitly clear. Awadewit | talk 04:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Another small issue: sometimes "counterattack" is hyphenated and sometimes it is not. The editors should decide whether or not to use the hyphen and then apply the decision consistently. Awadewit | talk 04:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
There is some diction in this article that seems to repeat a lot (e.g. "attack," "planned," "assault"). These should be replaced with a greater variety of words. My military diction is not very wide, so I wasn't exactly sure what to use. Awadewit | talk 04:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
After doing the copy edit, I have a couple of comments on the article (which I thought was, in general, very good):
In paragraph order:
I don't want to be overly picky either, I assure you. I just had someone opposing an FAC I prepared almost single-handedly on dashes and dates. Awadewit | talk 10:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations on getting the article to Featured status. I look forward to seeing it on the Main Page :) GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 16:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Cam 18:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I have just seen the recent page move. This was no doubt done in good faith but it is normal practice to discuss moves of mature pages on their talk page prior to doing them. The literature–including the source you edited (see Nicholson, Chapter 8, p 250) and the Canadian Veterans' Affairs fact sheet–unanimously calls it the "Battle of Arras". I strongly object to the page rename. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 17:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Should we mention the opening of the underground Carrière Wellington museum (on 15 Feb 2008) in this article? Here is a media release about it Jamie Mackay ( talk) 09:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmmm, so both sides sacked their commander. Falkenhausen for the defeat and Allenby for the success! Then Lossberg saved the day. I think this is contemporary propaganda. Could Falken' use 'elastic defence' on Vimy Ridge? Could elastic defence make a difference on the lower ground in the south? Did Falken' have his reserves too far back? If so did this preserve them from being caught in the bombardment? Had he held them closer could it be that he would have been blamed for losing them in the iniial British advance? Presumably defence of the Ridge was the German defensive 'schwerpunkt'. What resources did Falken' have left? Lossberg rolls up but so do lots of reinforcements which give him more means to hamper the British advance. Suspiciously good timing to put responsibility for a severe defeat on one man and responsibility for 'stabilising' the situation on another. Isn't this a common bureacratic dodge to contain accountability? This succeeds in stopping the British advance but only at the cost of expending German infantry and artillery at an unsustainable rate.
Falken' gets the sack for lack of hindsight, Allenby gets the sack to take the blame for high losses (which were inevitable, particularly once the attack continued for political reasons) and for the lack of a breakthrough which was never on (with the French army in turmoil and Nivelle getting Limoge perhaps Haig got his retaliation in first to forestall Mr George, like the sacking of Gough in 1918). So a long war goes on, consuming huge numbers of men and material and the leaders resort to strategems to evade the odium of the human cost of the policy of victory or bust. Allenby and Falken' become rhetorical casualties as the high command plays for time. Subsequent historians add to the misleading impression by using a 'breakthrough' or a 'manoeuvre' model anachronistically and marking generals accordingly. Surely the German high command reacted to the materialschlacht unleashed at Arras with horror and a sense that time was running out? Keith-264 ( talk) 12:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
They are questions leading to a hypothesis. Can you shed light on it? Keith-264 ( talk) 09:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Try harder [;-) or look at 'German Strategy and the Path to Verdun: Erich Von Falkenhayn and the Development of Attrition, 1870-1916' by RT Foley for a view of the war that challenges the 'mud, blood and poetry' school by incorporating scholarly work of the last 25 years or so. D G Herrmann and D Stevenson are also useful on the reality behind the short-war illusion and the fantasy of low casualties in industrial wars. Incorporating their views would substantially alter the 'beauty contest' approach to Great War generalship which (in my view) rests on anachronistic criteria. Thanks for replying Keith-264 ( talk) 13:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I see that in the box, "German Empire" is broken down in "Prussia" and "Bavaria", while in other places not. Is this right? Bavaria was not a separate entity at the time, like Canada and Australia were. 200.222.3.3 ( talk) 16:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I see no reference to Siegfried Sassoon's famous poem "The General" which makes a direct reference to the battle of Arras. Surely it is worth a mention here? Bjmullan ( talk) 23:11, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The Somme a 'costly failure'? A costly success surely? Which side was bled most grievously in 1916, the Entente or the Central Powers? The Austro-Hungarian army was nearly destroyed by Brusilov and the German strategy for victory in 1916 was left in tatters by the failure of the Verdun offensive to destroy France's offensive capacity and the unexpected success of Britain's new model army in forcing the Germans off the commanding ground north of the Somme while the Germans failed to do this to the French at Verdun. 'Win-lose' thinking seems to me to be unhelpful when the war was being fought on three fronts; 'cost-benefit' seems much more fruitful. All the contenders lost heavily in 1916 and Germany was least able to bear it. Keith-264 ( talk) 12:55, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
The sections Creeping barrage and Counter Battery contain assorted errors. The CB one can be sorted out fairly easily (the description of flash spotting is utter tosh). The creeping barrage description seems to contain considerable poetic licence and misundstanding of artillery tactics. It appears that the authors are confused into thinking that all artillery fire was a creeping barrage or that all barrage was creeping. Nfe ( talk) 04:01, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
C.S. Lewis was not among the casualties of the spring 1917 Battle of Arras, nor even among those present. In his autobiographical "Surprised by Joy", Lewis says he arrived at the front on his 19th birthday in November 1917, "and was wounded at Mt. Bernenchon, near Lillers, in April, 1918." Bill Befort ( talk) 20:17, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think the result should say 'indecisive', this battle was an unmitigated success of British imperial forces. They made significant advances across the front and achieved all of their objectives; as well as making some significant progress in tactical doctrine. The only thing that was a failure was the French offensive Ben200 ( talk) 23:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC) True but this wasn't decisive, it was another battle which left the German army less able to withstand the next one. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Really? The front line at the end of the battle had been advanced most south of Arras. The Fifth Army mainly acted to hold German troops, while it was being depleted to reinforce the armies further north and the Second Army in Flanders. See sketch 23 OH 1917 I, p. 522. Keith-264 ( talk) 01:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
"Although historians generally consider the battle a British victory, in the wider context of the front, it had very little impact on the strategic or tactical situation" shouldn't there be a reference to the Nivelle Offensive of which it was a part? Keith-264 ( talk) 13:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Added a "see also" for Capture of Oppy Wood to the paragraph on the 3rd Scarpe. Keith-264 ( talk) 11:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
It took a while to find the pages associated with the Nivelle Offensive but I have in mind making this page the main one about the development of the Allied strategy for early 1917 and the aftermath and the other pages Battle of Arras (1917), Second Battle of the Aisne, Battle of the Hills for the details of the military operations. I did a campaign boxes to tie the pages together. Arras is pretty complete but the other two suffer from lack of English sources. I've gleaned enough to double the material on each page and added material from Tactical development on the Western Front in 1917 but there's very little about the German defence of the Aisne. If anyone has suggestions for English-language sources I'd be grateful. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:11, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Found the details in the GOH but used sfn's as that's the only thing I know; change to parentheticals if desired. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:34, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
p.272 the losses of the used divisions had been heavy and had excelled of the German side by far. Till the end of April they amounted to 78,000 men, till the end of May another 64,000 men came, so that the total losses of the fights rose with Arras on 142,000, that is for every division used to the attack) see 416.2) German losses p. 276 and the following.
21-31 = 4,800. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Added material to the prelude and altered the header levels. There are deficiencies in the citations to some parts of the article, page numbers and dates are missing and one source looks unpublished (WO document). I'm not sure that some of the changes since the A class and featured status are good enough to retain the A though. Keith-264 ( talk) 10:07, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
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Added some detail from the OH about tunnelling but couldn't work out how to add notes using ref /ref so used efn }} instead, apols. Keith-264 ( talk) 16:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
It's quite been a while since I'd looked over this article however in reviewing it today I wonder whether it still meets the WP:FACR. I note that significant passages or paragraphs or cited by one source and whether summarize style is being effectively employed. I note there are quite a few instances of quoted text where summary text would suffice. I'm not sure if @ Roger Davies: has been by the article and I am wondering what the interest level is of making improvements vs. sending the article for Featured article review. Labattblueboy ( talk) 19:11, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:46, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
This question might have an answer of a simple “No”. Should there be a ‘Notable casualties’ section, to include Norman Callaway? JDAWiseman ( talk) 16:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
If you can find some more -perhaps from both sides-Yes. Spinney Hill ( talk) 13:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC) There are two (one killed and one wounded) in the section on poetry and music towards the end. Spinney Hill ( talk) 13:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@ JDAWiseman: I couldn't disagree more. Keith-264 ( talk) 14:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
I've just added a further notable casualty (Scott Moncrieff) to the literary/music section. My feeling is that the human side of battles like these is often passed over in silence or with conventional regrets, while a reference to a person you might have heard about makes it a little more interesting - and allows cross-links to and from other Wikipedia pages. Of course, others might disagree. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 13:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)