![]() | Tiger Mom was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 July 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Why do "Tiger Mom" and "Tiger Mother" redirect to this advertisement for a book? Those two terms have meaning and I'm betting there are/were existing articles for those terms. They should not redirect to an "article" that promotes a book. 24.12.187.84 ( talk) 15:34, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Quite contrary to what the Wikipedia article quotes from the writer Hara Estroff Marano, it is the mentality and environment this book promotes that has been a contributing factor to the huge increase in anxiety disorders over the last twenty to thirty years. These children will grow up stalked by emptiness - feeling that most of what they do in life isn't quite "enough". There is a myth here, typical of authoritarian personalities, that if you harangue people, they'll healthily "adapt". This approach is totally ego driven and focused on external validation rather than being comfortable in one's own skin. If you don't produce a child with a stress disorder you may produce competitors who are "the best" and "winners". Yet despite all of these "doings" and worldly achievements they will never feel satisfied and will be stalked by a sense of hollowness and an inability to just BE. So what is all the "winning" for. HansNZL ( talk) 01:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I suppose in a round about way I was questioning the balance of the article, in particular Hara Estroff Marano's assertions about anxiety. HansNZL ( talk) 10:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
There are a number of videos of people (adults and children) playing "The Little White Donkey" on Youtube. Here is one by (name removed): (link removed). Might this be useful as an inline link? Ncip ( talk) 21:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
A "googlenglish" translation of a recent interview in the German magazine "Die Zeit" ( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.zeit.de/2011/11/Tiger-Mom-Amy-Chua) has Chua calling herself "crazy":
"As she explains why the horror, the book in many places raised their ha t? Viele hätten nur Auszüge gelesen oder Kolportagen gehört, verteidigt sich Chua. Many had read only excerpts or trash is to defend Chua. Längst nicht alles im Buch sei wörtlich gemeint. Not everything in the book is meant literally. »Wissen Sie, in diesem Haus wird viel gelacht! "You know, a lot of laughter in this house! Meine Töchter finden mich sehr lustig, und auch das Buch ist lustig! My daughters find me very funny, and the book is funny! Ich meine, da erzählt eine wahnsinnige Person von lauter verrückten Dingen. I mean, a crazy person tells of loud crazy things. Niemals würde ich die Stofftiere meiner Kinder verbrennen – das war ein Stilmittel, eine Übertreibung. I would never burn the stuffed animals my children - that was a stylistic device, an exaggeration. Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt, um meine Position klarzumachen.« I have pointed many situations to explain my position. "
Separately, Google Translate gives "insane" for "wahnsinnige" ( http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7Cwahnsinnige) and "funny" for "lustig" ( http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7Clustig). How much of this, if any, belongs in the encyclopedia article? Ncip ( talk) 14:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
For anyone following this give-and-take between Mschiffler (article revision here) and myself but who hasn't yet followed the reference link, let me emphasize that the original German-language article is a pure fluff piece. "Die Zeit" may have won Pulitzer prizes, but this article will not be nominated for any awards. A lot of time is spent describing the Chua family residence, how Chua looks, what she is wearing, what her daughters look like, what they are wearing, etc. There is also the mention, perhaps tellingly, that "[Chua] speaks so quickly" (Sie redet so schnell). References to verifiable facts show that the reporter is very sloppy in this respect:
"On the first page of her book is one of Tiger's mom, which she has committed her daughters - the infamous list. Keine Geburtstagspartys besuchen zum Beispiel. No birthday parties go, for example."
The list (the same one reproduced in the encyclopedia article) in "Battle Hymn" has no mention of birthday parties. We do not know what questions Chua was asked, only her responses, as translated by the reporter. However the relative accuracy of the "Die Zeit" article is not the issue. Mschiffler says above:
'[T]he point is that Amy Chua says that the famous "burning of the stuffed animal threat" was not meant literally. This came as a surprise to me, and probably to others as well. The threat story was widely reproduced in the media.'
We know that she did make these threats and that they are an integral part of the story, e.g. her younger daughter's retort of "Why are you still here" when her mother threatened to take her dollhouse to the Salvation Army. As another example, we know she really did call her daughter "garbage". There is a long description and explanation of how her father had said the same to her and that she knew he didn't really mean it. Insisting that the only possible interpretation of the "not meant literally" phrase is that she only claimed to call her daughter "garbage" or donate her dollhouse but didn't actually say these things is absurd. In the translation of Chua's words in the "Die Zeit" article, the primary meaning of "zugespitzt" is "pointed" or "intensified". Although Mschiffler translates this as "exaggerated", the reporter has Chua using the actual German word for exaggeration (Übertreibung) in the previous sentence. It stands to reason that if Chau had used the word "exaggerated" twice, a faithful translation of this second sentence would have been "Ich habe viele Situationen übertrieben" not "Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt". Also the primary meaning of "klarzumachen" is "clarify". She is merely explaining that she often uses intense language to get her point across. If the phrase "lost in translation" applies anywhere, it is here. Ncip ( talk) 20:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
The allegation that the reporter from die Die Zeit was sloppy has not been substantiated by Ncip. The comments posted by Ncip are, in my view, no reason to exclude the quote from the article. Concerning the various translation options, the alternative translations suggested by Ncip are plausible. I thus suggest to include the following quote in English in the article and to include the German translation in the footnote, mentioning that the English original is not available:
“I would never burn the stuffed animals of my children - that was a hyperbole, an exaggeration. I have intensified many situations to clarify my position.” The book "was therapy for me at the time of a great defeat".
Footnote: „Niemals würde ich die Stofftiere meiner Kinder verbrennen – das war ein Stilmittel, eine Übertreibung. Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt, um meine Position klarzumachen. (...) Es war für mich Therapie im Moment einer großen Niederlage.«
I hope that this issue can be resolved soon in a manner respectful to the points of view of both parties.-- Mschiffler ( talk) 01:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Hmm . . . methinks this be a case of Stockholm Syndrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.4.84.172 ( talk) 02:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
...This whole article is a giant endorsement for the author and her work. Not one 'criticism' is levied against her except in broad terms, yet 99% of this article is about how awesome the writer is and how much better Asians are to westerners? Don't like this article at all. It almost reads like it was written by the Wall Street Journal after their review in order to hammer their points even further. Not once is it discussed that the same kind of kid raising described here has caused kids to become remote, suicidal (if they fail their parents expectations) or socially inept because they see everything as a competition that they must devote their life for. Yeah, this article is certainly a giant advertisement for her book and her teaching methods and that isn't what wikipedia is about... 68.228.90.195 ( talk) 21:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Are we really surprised that a Rupert Murdoch owned paper (the WSJ) endorses this type of thing? No. HansNZL ( talk) 08:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
CliffC, it is incumbent on you to give a proper reason for removing (revision 431331889) the Los Angeles Times link of Donald Trump's endorsement of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Simply saying "Trump's favorites are irrelevant" is only expression of your personal opinion and reflects poorly on your responsibility as a Wikipedia editor to remain objective. If you have a personal or political belief against Donald Trump, then take it to an outside forum such as Democratic Underground. However, as my user ID suggests, there is no place for politics on Wikipedia, and that includes yours.
As Donald Trump is a notable pop-culture personality, best-selling author, as well as an authority on Sino-American foreign affairs, Trump's endorsement of Amy Chua's novel is just as valid and significant an entry in the [ [1]] section as, say, the quote/link from Financial Times, which you obviously did not have a problem with removing from the Tiger Mother article.
Lastly, even though this is your responsibility, not mine, I will cite precedent on Wikipedia that one celebrity's endorsement of another is in fact a "relevant" reference in the "Reception" section of articles for books, television and film. Please look at [ [2]], where it says "Time named Toy Story 3 the best movie of 2010,[47] as did Quentin Tarantino.[48]" One might argue that Tarantino's endorsement of Toy Story 3 is also irrelevant, however Tarantino's endorsements of his "favorite movies of 2010" appear on nearly every Wikipedia article for each of those respective movies.
That said, if you are willing to remove the Tarantino endorsement links from each of those articles (20 to be exact), then I will reconsider your reasons for reverting my Los Angeles Times link of Trump's endorsement of Tiger Mother. Until then, I am undoing your edit. If you undo my link to Trump's endorsement again, I will happily take this directly to Wikipedia:Mediation where we can openly discuss amongst the committee why your personal political beliefs have no place on Wikipedia.
Thank you Noplaceforpolitics ( talk) 05:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
|article={{SUBPAGENAME}}
, that also messes things up. Once I hear from "my little friends" that the report has been filed I'll respond to your claims. --
CliffC (
talk)
23:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)In a review for the
Washington Independent Review of Books, Heather Banks writes that Chua is "her own worst enemy. Raising two daughters, Sophia and Louisa (called “Lulu”), she seems a cross between Leopold Mozart (the ultimate stage father) and Joan Crawford (“Mommy Dearest”). In interviews, she says the book demonstrates her sense of humor, but there is little evidence of it."
[1]
Just one of the edits made by Qworty listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Contributor clean-up/Qworty The above text was removed with the edit summary: "undo promotional edit" [4] It certainly doesn't come across as promotional, perhaps with some alterations it could be restored. Cheers. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 03:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
References
This article reads like a love letter to Amy Chua. It reads like it was written by marketing people for her book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cainxinth ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
![]() | Tiger Mom was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 July 2013 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why do "Tiger Mom" and "Tiger Mother" redirect to this advertisement for a book? Those two terms have meaning and I'm betting there are/were existing articles for those terms. They should not redirect to an "article" that promotes a book. 24.12.187.84 ( talk) 15:34, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Quite contrary to what the Wikipedia article quotes from the writer Hara Estroff Marano, it is the mentality and environment this book promotes that has been a contributing factor to the huge increase in anxiety disorders over the last twenty to thirty years. These children will grow up stalked by emptiness - feeling that most of what they do in life isn't quite "enough". There is a myth here, typical of authoritarian personalities, that if you harangue people, they'll healthily "adapt". This approach is totally ego driven and focused on external validation rather than being comfortable in one's own skin. If you don't produce a child with a stress disorder you may produce competitors who are "the best" and "winners". Yet despite all of these "doings" and worldly achievements they will never feel satisfied and will be stalked by a sense of hollowness and an inability to just BE. So what is all the "winning" for. HansNZL ( talk) 01:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I suppose in a round about way I was questioning the balance of the article, in particular Hara Estroff Marano's assertions about anxiety. HansNZL ( talk) 10:14, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
There are a number of videos of people (adults and children) playing "The Little White Donkey" on Youtube. Here is one by (name removed): (link removed). Might this be useful as an inline link? Ncip ( talk) 21:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
A "googlenglish" translation of a recent interview in the German magazine "Die Zeit" ( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.zeit.de/2011/11/Tiger-Mom-Amy-Chua) has Chua calling herself "crazy":
"As she explains why the horror, the book in many places raised their ha t? Viele hätten nur Auszüge gelesen oder Kolportagen gehört, verteidigt sich Chua. Many had read only excerpts or trash is to defend Chua. Längst nicht alles im Buch sei wörtlich gemeint. Not everything in the book is meant literally. »Wissen Sie, in diesem Haus wird viel gelacht! "You know, a lot of laughter in this house! Meine Töchter finden mich sehr lustig, und auch das Buch ist lustig! My daughters find me very funny, and the book is funny! Ich meine, da erzählt eine wahnsinnige Person von lauter verrückten Dingen. I mean, a crazy person tells of loud crazy things. Niemals würde ich die Stofftiere meiner Kinder verbrennen – das war ein Stilmittel, eine Übertreibung. I would never burn the stuffed animals my children - that was a stylistic device, an exaggeration. Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt, um meine Position klarzumachen.« I have pointed many situations to explain my position. "
Separately, Google Translate gives "insane" for "wahnsinnige" ( http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7Cwahnsinnige) and "funny" for "lustig" ( http://translate.google.com/#auto%7Cen%7Clustig). How much of this, if any, belongs in the encyclopedia article? Ncip ( talk) 14:07, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
For anyone following this give-and-take between Mschiffler (article revision here) and myself but who hasn't yet followed the reference link, let me emphasize that the original German-language article is a pure fluff piece. "Die Zeit" may have won Pulitzer prizes, but this article will not be nominated for any awards. A lot of time is spent describing the Chua family residence, how Chua looks, what she is wearing, what her daughters look like, what they are wearing, etc. There is also the mention, perhaps tellingly, that "[Chua] speaks so quickly" (Sie redet so schnell). References to verifiable facts show that the reporter is very sloppy in this respect:
"On the first page of her book is one of Tiger's mom, which she has committed her daughters - the infamous list. Keine Geburtstagspartys besuchen zum Beispiel. No birthday parties go, for example."
The list (the same one reproduced in the encyclopedia article) in "Battle Hymn" has no mention of birthday parties. We do not know what questions Chua was asked, only her responses, as translated by the reporter. However the relative accuracy of the "Die Zeit" article is not the issue. Mschiffler says above:
'[T]he point is that Amy Chua says that the famous "burning of the stuffed animal threat" was not meant literally. This came as a surprise to me, and probably to others as well. The threat story was widely reproduced in the media.'
We know that she did make these threats and that they are an integral part of the story, e.g. her younger daughter's retort of "Why are you still here" when her mother threatened to take her dollhouse to the Salvation Army. As another example, we know she really did call her daughter "garbage". There is a long description and explanation of how her father had said the same to her and that she knew he didn't really mean it. Insisting that the only possible interpretation of the "not meant literally" phrase is that she only claimed to call her daughter "garbage" or donate her dollhouse but didn't actually say these things is absurd. In the translation of Chua's words in the "Die Zeit" article, the primary meaning of "zugespitzt" is "pointed" or "intensified". Although Mschiffler translates this as "exaggerated", the reporter has Chua using the actual German word for exaggeration (Übertreibung) in the previous sentence. It stands to reason that if Chau had used the word "exaggerated" twice, a faithful translation of this second sentence would have been "Ich habe viele Situationen übertrieben" not "Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt". Also the primary meaning of "klarzumachen" is "clarify". She is merely explaining that she often uses intense language to get her point across. If the phrase "lost in translation" applies anywhere, it is here. Ncip ( talk) 20:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
The allegation that the reporter from die Die Zeit was sloppy has not been substantiated by Ncip. The comments posted by Ncip are, in my view, no reason to exclude the quote from the article. Concerning the various translation options, the alternative translations suggested by Ncip are plausible. I thus suggest to include the following quote in English in the article and to include the German translation in the footnote, mentioning that the English original is not available:
“I would never burn the stuffed animals of my children - that was a hyperbole, an exaggeration. I have intensified many situations to clarify my position.” The book "was therapy for me at the time of a great defeat".
Footnote: „Niemals würde ich die Stofftiere meiner Kinder verbrennen – das war ein Stilmittel, eine Übertreibung. Ich habe viele Situationen zugespitzt, um meine Position klarzumachen. (...) Es war für mich Therapie im Moment einer großen Niederlage.«
I hope that this issue can be resolved soon in a manner respectful to the points of view of both parties.-- Mschiffler ( talk) 01:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Hmm . . . methinks this be a case of Stockholm Syndrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.4.84.172 ( talk) 02:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
...This whole article is a giant endorsement for the author and her work. Not one 'criticism' is levied against her except in broad terms, yet 99% of this article is about how awesome the writer is and how much better Asians are to westerners? Don't like this article at all. It almost reads like it was written by the Wall Street Journal after their review in order to hammer their points even further. Not once is it discussed that the same kind of kid raising described here has caused kids to become remote, suicidal (if they fail their parents expectations) or socially inept because they see everything as a competition that they must devote their life for. Yeah, this article is certainly a giant advertisement for her book and her teaching methods and that isn't what wikipedia is about... 68.228.90.195 ( talk) 21:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Are we really surprised that a Rupert Murdoch owned paper (the WSJ) endorses this type of thing? No. HansNZL ( talk) 08:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
CliffC, it is incumbent on you to give a proper reason for removing (revision 431331889) the Los Angeles Times link of Donald Trump's endorsement of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Simply saying "Trump's favorites are irrelevant" is only expression of your personal opinion and reflects poorly on your responsibility as a Wikipedia editor to remain objective. If you have a personal or political belief against Donald Trump, then take it to an outside forum such as Democratic Underground. However, as my user ID suggests, there is no place for politics on Wikipedia, and that includes yours.
As Donald Trump is a notable pop-culture personality, best-selling author, as well as an authority on Sino-American foreign affairs, Trump's endorsement of Amy Chua's novel is just as valid and significant an entry in the [ [1]] section as, say, the quote/link from Financial Times, which you obviously did not have a problem with removing from the Tiger Mother article.
Lastly, even though this is your responsibility, not mine, I will cite precedent on Wikipedia that one celebrity's endorsement of another is in fact a "relevant" reference in the "Reception" section of articles for books, television and film. Please look at [ [2]], where it says "Time named Toy Story 3 the best movie of 2010,[47] as did Quentin Tarantino.[48]" One might argue that Tarantino's endorsement of Toy Story 3 is also irrelevant, however Tarantino's endorsements of his "favorite movies of 2010" appear on nearly every Wikipedia article for each of those respective movies.
That said, if you are willing to remove the Tarantino endorsement links from each of those articles (20 to be exact), then I will reconsider your reasons for reverting my Los Angeles Times link of Trump's endorsement of Tiger Mother. Until then, I am undoing your edit. If you undo my link to Trump's endorsement again, I will happily take this directly to Wikipedia:Mediation where we can openly discuss amongst the committee why your personal political beliefs have no place on Wikipedia.
Thank you Noplaceforpolitics ( talk) 05:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
|article={{SUBPAGENAME}}
, that also messes things up. Once I hear from "my little friends" that the report has been filed I'll respond to your claims. --
CliffC (
talk)
23:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)In a review for the
Washington Independent Review of Books, Heather Banks writes that Chua is "her own worst enemy. Raising two daughters, Sophia and Louisa (called “Lulu”), she seems a cross between Leopold Mozart (the ultimate stage father) and Joan Crawford (“Mommy Dearest”). In interviews, she says the book demonstrates her sense of humor, but there is little evidence of it."
[1]
Just one of the edits made by Qworty listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Contributor clean-up/Qworty The above text was removed with the edit summary: "undo promotional edit" [4] It certainly doesn't come across as promotional, perhaps with some alterations it could be restored. Cheers. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 03:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
References
This article reads like a love letter to Amy Chua. It reads like it was written by marketing people for her book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cainxinth ( talk • contribs) 18:07, 18 February 2014 (UTC)