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The Sarah Palin section says, in part:
The linking between the question whether Trig is her son to Barack Obama's birth certificate issues has been heavily criticized. [1] Andrew Sullivan, in specific, wrote "Palin has never produced Trig's birth certificate or a single piece of objective medical evidence that proves he is indeed her biological son". [2]
I've converted the refs into inline links there. That presents the Sullivan comment as an example of criticism of the linking. Reading that comment in context, I don't see it as a criticism of the linking. Sullivan characterizes Palin as having "joined or at least mainstreamed the Birther movement", but if he speaks to the linkage between the questions about Obama's and Trig's birth certificates, I missed it. He leads with comments about Palin's birther-ness, but most of the linked article is about Trig's birth circumstances. As I read it, Sullivan's key point in that source relevant to this article is, "The news here is that, to her credit, Palin says that all inquiries into a candidate's veracity, record, associations, and medical history are legitimate forms of inquiry." As I read that, he's saying that questions about Obama's birth certificate go to his natural-born-ness , imply that he may be a liar/perjurer, and are legitimate; questions about Trig's birth certificate imply that Palin may be a liar, and are legitimate. I suggest removing the final sentence and the link to the Sullivan comment, or rewriting the assertions in this section to highlight Sullivan's birther characterizations of Palin and/or the legitimacy of questions about a candidate's veracity, record, associations, and medical history. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
A question of Trig-onometry? Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I've redone this edit. That edit changed characterization referring to two separate documents to characterization referring to "different terms for the same document".
There are at least two separate types of documents at issue. One document type is documents similar to the computer-generated certificate which the Obama campaign released, which is imaged here, with the caption of the image being what I have edited. Another document type (what "birthers" would like to see released, at least in photocopy form) is the "vault copy" of the actual piece of paper which was completed and signed by various persons at the birth event. For a comparison of Obama's released certificate (number 151-61-10641) vs. photocopies of vault copies of pieces of paper completed at other birth events at the Kapiolani Medical Center (numbers 151-61-10637 and 151-61-10638) which were near-conterminous in time with Obama's, see www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2303249/replies?c=25 (you'll need to manually browse over there -- WP spam-filters that URL). Also see this past discussion of this point (probably one of several such past discussions). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I dispute this edit, which changed the caption of an image of a document entitled by the issuing authority as Certification of Live Birth to read
Image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign.
with an edit summary of "This is the correct spelling and definition of the document." I contend that the image should be captioned,
Image of the Certification of Live Birth document released during the Obama presidential campaign.
The disputed edit is essentially a revert of a previous edit by me (which edit did admittedly mistakenly omit the word "Image"), and I bring this up here rather than edit-war. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
(added) Some googling turned up [http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103408 this article], which I mention here for info only (I don't want to get drawn into a discussion about whether WND meets WP:RS criteria). Also please note that I make no assertion re the location of Barack Obama's birth event. I assert only that the image is mis-captioned. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth) and Certificates of Hawaiian Birth are the primary documents used to determine native Hawaiian qualification.
This document is a certification by the State of Hawaii Department of Public Health that the information it contains is a true representation of information contained in some fields of the Certificate of Live Birth document held by the State of Hawaii Department of Public Health.
Barack Obama's Birth Certificate. The use of the term "Certification of Live Birth" in place of "Birth Certificate" has fuelled conspiracy theories, although they are different terms for the same document
Image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign.
While also quoting from the same source that you provided and have read :FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.
Which is one of the reasons why Factcheck refers to the document as Obama's 'original birth certificate'. Because that is how the document is treated by everyone BUT the 'birthers'. It's cited by law, sources and it would be unencyclopedic to refer to the document, in an official manner, as anything other than Obama's birth certificate. DD2K ( talk) 15:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.
Tons of OR in this section. Lets use the specific language that the RS's (factcheck.org?) which have reviewed and discussed this document. If they refer to it plainly as birth certificate, then that is the wording that we should use per WP:V ... if they use COLB, then lets use that wording. Lets make it simple? -- guyzero | talk 06:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Real life events are going to cause me to reduce my WP participation somewhat over the next few weeks or so. This dispute isn't going anywhere anyway, so I'm abandoning it. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:24, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
(1) A "certification" is merely an affidavit by state officials that they have SEEN certain vital records. They are "certifying" that they exist.
(2) A "certificate" is the CONTEMPORANEOUS document executed by physicians and other actual witnesses to the BIRTH.
(3) The documents are clearly quite different. The difference is the same as an "certification" stating that "I have seen the Magna Carta" and the Magna Carta itself.
(4) This article is deliberately misleading in conflating the two documents.
(5) This article is deliberately misleading (and self-contradictory and biased) insofar as Hawaii state officials have given conflicting accounts as to (1) whether the 1961 Certificate of Live Birth" exists (2) what "vital records" they are relying on, if not the Certificate (3) whether they have the authority under the law to reveal what documents exist and what they have examined.
(6) Although this article presents (in a very disorganized an haphazard manner) the various conflicting assertions of state officials, it appears to RESOLVE (without any factual basis) the dispute by concluding (1) Hawaii officials are free to disclose what documents exist, (2) what those documents established and (3) in this particular case, Obama's 1961 Certificate of Live Birth exists and was examined by the officials. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.40.2 ( talk) 15:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
This page is bigger than most articles on whole countries...trim it down? 174.114.231.69 ( talk) 01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
The section about Donofrio v. Wells is an inaccurate representation of Leo Donofrio's position with regard Roger Calero, John McCain, and Barack Obama. With regard Roger Calero, Leo's objection to his qualification is not that he currently may be a citizen of Nicaragua, but that he was a Nicaraguan citizen at birth. With regard John McCain, Leo's objection to his qualification is not that he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. To the contrary. Leo asserts that John McCain was not born in the Panama Canal Zone (where his father worked) but rather in Colon Hospital in Colon, Panama, (as his birth certificate states) and consequently he was Panamanian citizen at birth. With regard Barack Obama, Leo's objection to his qualification is that he was a British subject at birth, without regard to the place of birth or his simultaneous US citizenship at birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atozxrod ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Re this revert of my addition of a {{ cn}} tag, The unsupported assertion is
It has also been claimed that Obama could not be a natural-born citizen because he traveled to Pakistan at a time when there was a ban on United States passport holders entering that country,
I see that page 3 of the Kornhaber article cited to support a direct quote which follows this assertion says, "And in 1981, Obama traveled to Pakistan; at the time, though, there was a ban on American passport holders entering that country." and that page 4 says that there was no travel ban. I don't see any support, however, for the assertion that it has been claimed that this travel refutes his status as a natural-born citizen
I see that this factcheck.org article says that a claim that his trip to Pakistan in 1981 proves he must not have been a U.S. citizen was advanced in 2008, but it doesn't say who made the claim. Such a claim would be nonsensical, of course, but it would be nice to have a cite of a source showing who made the nonsensical claim and what association the claimant had.
I see that this snopes.com article seems to attribute the claim to someone named Paul Hollrah. This answers.com article speaks of someone named Paul R Hollrah as being a fairly prolific writer of on-line political commetary with a seemingly extreme right-wing view who lives in Missouri and is listed as a former Presidential Elector from Kansas (sounds like this might be the same person), and describes him as a person who goes about spewing fake information that no one cares about in an effort to stir up false controversy and get more famous (their words, not mine). One wonders whether this is the source of the claim alleged and, if not, what the source is. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
In the news today, 'Birther' Lt. Col. Terry Lakin to be court-martialed for refusing order to deploy to Afghanistan. While it isn't a lawsuit as Cook v. Obama was regarding a refusal to serve, the court martial is a direct result of birther advocacy. Thoughts? Tarc ( talk) 18:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit, is this cited and quoted source ("Barack Obama was, without question, born in the U.S., and he is eligible to be president, but experts on conspiracy theories say that won't ever matter to those who believe otherwise. " — I think the quote, though, quotes an anonymous Solon headline-writter, not the bylined article author), a piece by Solon staff writer Alex Koppelman, whose bio page at Solon acknowledges that he has been described "... by Canadian political blogger Kathy Shaidle as 'a delusional liberal pantywaist...' " considered to be News or Opinion for purposes of this article? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
John McCain was definetly born outside the US.
Barack Obama's parents, and the State of Hawaii could not foresee that he would become President, and thus saw no reason to ensure that all requisite documentation would be kept (and copied to relevant other places).
The birthers complain about this opacity, not about McCain's not abiding by the spirit of the constitution.
Therefore they 'are complaining about something completely different.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 ( talk) 14:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Can someone direct me to where Wikipedia discusses the distinction between opinion citation vs legitimate fact-checked reporting-type citations? I am concerned that the Wiki article section:
"The Obama campaign released a 2007 certified copy of his short form birth certificate (in this instance referred to as a "Certification of Live Birth") that states Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961. Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" birth certificate, and that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate". These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations, every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials, a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate.[8]"
In particular, the Salon.com citation [8] is a pure opinion article, containing no evidence or first-hand information verifying anything in the article. The author makes numerous claims as fact without supporting them using agreed upon facts or logic. Moreover, the author uses several illogical arguments to support his position, including the "so and so believes in this theory and he is a nutcase, therefore the argument for this conspiracy theory is definitely untrue." argument. How was this citation ever included in wiki? It seems blatantly opinion and contains no factual information one way or the other.
Surely, there is a distinction between a blogger's opinion statement (or a newspaper's oped piece) and an exerpt from a journal article written by a professional providing firsthand information of observation and fact. Agreed, there are many grey areas in between. So what is wiki's guidance on this? I read the Wiki article for Verifiable and it has made me even more confused. Specifically:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.
Is this a statement about whether or not the link in question is a real link? a comment that the statement was made by a particular author? Is the link meant to confirm that the author stated by the wiki citation maker is in fact the true author of the comment/statement. Surely the standard cannot be that trivial. If so, then any blogger comment is sufficient for citation. Can someone offer a link which has some examples of what is accepted as a 'sufficient citation' and what is not? thanks. So many of the other conspiracy theory wiki articles are done so much better than this one, which is clearly biased in 2 or 3 sentences. Detah ( talk) 18:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
We're not here to discuss the lateast Birther-rumor-of-the-day. Tarc ( talk) 13:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The Minister of Lands in Kenya, in debate in the Kenyan parliament on Thursday 25 March 2010, made explicit reference to the fact that America has elected a president who was born in Kenya. It is on the official record - this minister is proud of the fact that a KENYAN has become the American president. Check pages 29 to 31 - the statement is on page 31. [7] Only those who are afraid of the truth or don't want to admit to a possibility (that should be examined) are going to delete this information. Which is censorship. Do you have the courage to examine the information for yourself, or are you so afraid that you'll delete it and keep others from examining it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.65.253.235 ( talk) 00:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
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I don't agree with Tarc's hatnote. This article is about the conspiracy theories, so talk-page discussion of the latest Birther rumor-of-the-day is appropriate for considering whether that particular rumor merits inclusion. JamesMLane t c 11:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Naming the wiki "conspiracy theories" carries a negative connotation. "conspiracy theories" should be changed to "Controversy" - as it is more neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 01:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Q1: Isn't the use of the terms "conspiracy theories" and "fringe" in the article title and body a violation of Wikipedia's policy on neutrality?
A1: No. Reliable sources have treated and referred to the topic as a fringe conspiracy theory, rather than a legitimate controversy. The article reflects these sources as per Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Consensus on the article title has been established through a RFC and has been repeatedly reaffirmed since.?
This is very interesting. I only suggest that the title change from conspiracy theory to controversy, and you reject it. I find it odd that this should cause Wikipedia's/Barrack's gate keepers such angst. The title is - in fact - not neutral. The only way that it would be ruled neutral is if the person(s) that makes such decisions is/are biased themselves. It makes me wonder if my past and current donations to Wikipedia have been going to an organization that isn't what it claims to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 02:29, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The financial backers of Obama's campaign would not have wanted to waste their money on someone who was automatically disqualified. Those arguing that Barack Obama is disqualified from being President have, over the course of two years, seemingly not come up with anything more than 'arguing over linguistic details' (or so it seems). Have the birthers mae any attempt to amend the constitutional/legal requirements on the requirements for the President's place of birth to remove the seeming ambiguity? If all they do is to describe the situation (as they see it) rather than act to change or clarify the points under discussion, then there is a tendency to call the whole thing a conspiracy theory (and sometimes things persist in being misnamed). Jackiespeel ( talk) 19:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Policy (not guidelines, but policy) explicitly permits article titles with non-neutral negative connotations, e.g. " Teapot Dome scandal", " Murder of George Tiller", "when they are used by a consensus of the sources". On the other hand, "..., encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality." (neutrality in the WP sense, not an absence of opinion, but an unbiased representation of the range of opinion, appropriately weighted to consensus, editorially neutral). And "If a genuine titling controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources." My casual impression is that the article title accurately reflects the consensus of reliable sources, but I haven't done the work to back up that impression. Someone who can set their opinions aside for a critical review should do that work. Studerby ( talk) 19:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I am the OP - my only point here is that there is widespread disagreement on this topic and your are prejudicing readers towards one position over the other. Moreover, the entire article reads like it is written with an agenda. Polls show that there are a large number of people that think there is a reason why Obama signed an executive order sealing his personal records the first day he was in office. By stating in the title that it is a conspiracy theory, you prejudice the reader. That does not mean that it isn't a conspiracy, as people are conspiring everyday in all aspects and walks fo life. Rather, it means that you are gaming WikiPedia's neutrality rule for personal/polticial reasons - but I imagine that it goes unchecked because you are on the "right" side of the argument. There is a reason why wikipedia exists, and this is not it. I will be very hesitant to donate any more money to this organization until it does something about the poltiical hacks and self-anointed "social engineers" that seem to plague WikiPedia. You should strive to err on the side of caution, and this title and article should be re-written so that it doesn't read like a political talking points memo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 03:57, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I laughed out loud when this edit to the Wikipedia policy on Article Titles popped up on my watchlist. "Where articles have descriptive titles, choose titles that do not seem to pass judgment, implicitly or explicitly, on the subject.". Ha! Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Just putting in my two cents: I strongly agree that this article title is a black eye for Wikipedia. Personally, I think that the theories about Barack Obama's citizenship are absolutely conspiracy theories - but I recognize that that is a personal opinion of mine. Wikipedia's stance, apparently, is that if a source like the New York Times fails to make that same recognition, then the bias becomes "sourced," and sourced bias can be repeated. I'd like to think we're better than that. Mindlessly repeating the bias of some journalist who happens to work for the New York Times is no better than mindlessly inserting our own editorial bias into the article. If that's Wikipedia "policy," the policy needs to be revisited. 66.224.70.106 ( talk) 22:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
It is alright to use it in the title. See also Q1 at the top of the page. A conspiracy theory differs from normal speculation because it cannot be true and does not follow normal logic. TFD ( talk) 01:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)* Moon landing conspiracy theories — Conspiracy theories which aim to show that the moon landings were fake, while probably not held as true by very many people, have generated enough discussion in books, television programs, debunking statements from NASA, etc., that they deserve an article on Wikipedia.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe#Sufficiently_notable_for_dedicated_articles
Only an unreasonable person would believe the moon is made of cheese, the earth was flat, or that Obama was born in Kenya. It's not the duty of Wikipedia to make those people feel better because of their beliefs, it's Wikipedia's duty to have verifiable articles. And only an extreme partisan would look at Conservapedia as an answer to some kind of "liberal" bias of Wikipedia. Which no amount of catering to would solve. Or at least not until Wikipedia became Conservapedia. I can see this is a circular argument with no end and that no amount of rationality or logic would solve, so I will withdraw. DD2K ( talk) 01:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The lede says that the Hawaii birth certificate objections "have been debunked numerous times by media investigations, every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials, a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate" — and an article from Salon.com is offered as the source for this statement. While I think this article is a reasonably good support for the claim that conspiracy theories exist on this subject, it seems to be a weak source for the claim that the birth certificate objections have been definitively debunked. Part of my problem, I think, is that the tone of the article is more like an opinion piece rather than a dispassionate report.
I'm inclined to want to either remove this "source" entirely, or else move it to some more appropriate part of the article. I think the statement in the lede can probably stay, but one or more of the sources cited later on in the article could be copied or moved up in place of the Salon.com story. I don't want to do anything major along these lines, though, without first seeing what others think. Comments? Richwales ( talk) 00:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original...
Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth
The article does not make clear that what the birthers call the "original" birth certificate on file with the county in Hawaii is the "Certificate of Live Birth." [my emphasis]. This is the long form birth certificate issued by the county, as opposed to the "Certification of Live Birth," [my emphasis], or "short form birth certificate" (also issued by the county). What the birthers want to see is the Certificate of Live Birth. The article leaves out an important piece of information, the actual title of that birth certificate.
Currently the article reads this way: The Obama campaign released a 2007 certified copy of his short form birth certificate (in this instance referred to as a "Certification of Live Birth") that states Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961. Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" birth certificate, and that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate".
I believe that this should be rewritten. Gosseyn1 ( talk) 19:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
This is not true. Obama's parents received an original birth certificate when he was born, and this is what the state officials have seen. This article is written in a misleading fashion. The article states that Hawaii currently gives out only birth certifications, but neglects to mention that they used to-in the past- give out certificates like they did in Obama's case way back when he was born. Obama has a birth certificate which he is not releasing to the public even though it could easily dispel these conspiracy theories, the best reason I have heard for not releasing it is because he want the Birthers to hang around in order to discredit the Tea Party movement and "the Right" in general. Btw the same article which says the Health Department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate." also says "a "certification of live birth" is, in fact, a short-form official birth certificate" which is what the Birthers argument is anyway. Ink Falls 20:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
No, it's not accurate, it's completely false. When you say the change I proposed, are you referring to the new caption, which I didn't write?, or the slight edit to the caption I made? All I did was change "seeing the "original birth certificate"" to "seeing a scanned image of the "original birth certificate"". Let's move this argument to the new section. Ink Falls 00:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I think when they say original they mean as in the "origins" of the image. I'll come back with someone else referring to the original and actually meaning the original(probably not for awhile though). Ink Falls 03:45, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Please take a look at this section. It appears to have been vandalized. -- William S. Saturn ( talk) 23:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Not notable??? Huh?? The guy is a major general who endorsed disobeying an order. That's very notable by itself. If you don't think he's notable, nominate his article for an AfD. Victor Victoria ( talk) 13:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Since it's been over a week and he hasn't come out denying that it's his voice, you can take it to be his voice. Victor Victoria ( talk) 13:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
How about this? It seems to be from a local newspaper in the town where Lakin grew up. 96.32.11.201 ( talk) 21:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, I pretty much have my hands full with the previous section in this thread. I'm glad everyone appreciated my small suggestion. And I would recommend that people read WP:NPA. 96.32.11.201 ( talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Take a look at the former caption.
"Scanned image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign."
This is not true, this is not a scanned image of his original birth certificate. His original was produced in 1961, this was printed out in 2007 and isn't a birth certificate but a "certification of living birth" which doesn't feature such info as the doctor who performed the delivery or the hospital(like an actual birth certificate) or even look like the original birth certificate. The point is that it's not a scanned image of his original
Current wording(emphasis mine)
"Although the Obama campaign released this "certificate of live birth" that was printed by a computer in 2007, conspiracy theorists insist on seeing a scanned image of the "original birth certificate" that was created in the year 1961, and whose existence has been verified by Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo."
How is this "birther-ish spin" when this caption clearly states that the original does exist.
The new caption clearly explains to people coming here that they are not looking at a scanned image of his original birth certificate but rather something else, and that the reason isn't because the original no longer exists.
Ink Falls 23:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
"Perhaps the most common argument of those questioning Obama's eligibility is that he should just release his full, original birth certificate, rather than the shorter certification, which is a copy. ... Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health, released a statement saying she has verified that the state has the original birth certificate on record"
This is why it's so misleading, you even believe that the original is lost somewhere, destined to never surface when various government officials have seen it and verified its existence.
Ink Falls 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Obama campaign's FightTheSmears.com website---FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship.
Barack Obama’s Official Birth Certificate
When one goes to get your birth certificate, that is what they give you. It's regarded as your original birth certificate(with the raised seal), and that is what is recognized by every official outlet. As described by Hawaiian law:
§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.(b) 'Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original...
That is not his original. He has an original copy which has been verified, I just want it specified that the image is a copy, but that his original has been verified. You can say, "This is a copy, but it is considered as the original" but any other way will misinform people that this is the one printed at his birth, which it isn't. Ink Falls 00:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
That is what you said: "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate."
This is what the article says "his "original" birth certificate" whose existence has been verified by Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health."
Why are you denying that his original birth certificate exists? Everybody acknowledges that it exists. That picture is of a copy.
Ink Falls 00:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
No we have not stipulated that the articles refer to the copy as the original! Does that even make any sense to you? It was a wikipedia poster who said they refer to the the copy as the original.
"And since all certified(raised seals) copies are to be considered the original birth certificates, while the State
never issues the old versions The document released is Obama's original birth certificate."
That was a wikipedia poster talking. When the articles say they have examined and verified the existence of the original, they literally mean the original, not the copy.
Ink Falls 02:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship.
I think that referring to it as the "original birth certificate" in that example was an isolated instance. Here is a quote from this newspaper article. "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." "We don't destroy vital records," Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said. "That's our whole job, to maintain and retain vital records." Ink Falls 04:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
But there is a difference, the original contains info not present in the short form version, and the fact that Obama has not released the original is what is fueling these conspiracy theorists. Also, it's up to the people coming here to decide if there is a difference between the two or not, and we should inform them that what they are looking at is not his original. If we say in the article that he has not released the original, then they will look at the top and say "wtf?" and be confused as to why we have a photo of the original and yet are saying he hasn't released the original. Ink Falls 16:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
We don't know specifically which hospital he was born in which we do of all the other presidents. The only one who has gotten any information wrong is you in assuming there is no original birth certificate which there is. Try attacking my argument instead of making your pointless ad hominems. Ink Falls 18:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Hey - folks, please, WP:NOTAFORUM. If it's not directly related to improving the article, post it on a place that cares, not here. Ravensfire ( talk) 23:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Happy, I'll get back to you on that info, as you are asking for a lot. Also quit diverting from the argument by saying I don't think he's an American because he's black and liberal, all I'm arguing is that he hasn't released his original birth certificate(which is available) and that which should distinguish in the image caption between the two so that people are not accidentally led to believe that that is the original, but instead a copy.
I'm reading your comment " he doesn't look like all those other guys on the dollar bills, so he can't be a real American? " and am wondering where you are getting this from? Are you implying that I am racist for wanting to distinguish in the image caption that we are not looking at his original but rather a copy?
Ink Falls 19:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
"You should read the above arguments where all the other posters continually argue that Obama's original birth certificate is lost somewhere in the filing cabinets of the Health Department and can't be found before you comment on others not being able to read." You see how I said all the others, I did not say I think there's no original. Then I said, contradicting all the other posters who argued that the original birth certificate is lost "Here is a quote from this newspaper article. "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." "We don't destroy vital records," Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said. "That's our whole job, to maintain and retain vital records." These sentences should make perfect sense to anybody reading them. Ink Falls 19:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
First off, I am the one who had to originally explain (before you entered) that the short form birth certificate is not a photocopy but a different version printed off with most of the same info. Secondly, they do not match "EXACTLY" as the shortform does not include the attending physician, nor the hospital, and while the article mentions all the evidence points to one hospital the hospital itself cannot confirm nor deny its where the birth took place. Could we compromise and just call it what it is in the caption, Obama's shortform birth certificate, that doesn't sound long-winded at all. Ink Falls 04:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
JackOL31 ( talk) 19:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
DD2K, your name is signed after the comment that I quoted along with Jethro's, I didn't originally see Jethro's name because it was so small, it's an easy mistake to make. Jack, they do not have just an electronic copy they have the original paper document, as I have stated before and as I have already presented with this quote: "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." As you stated "In 2001, Hawai'i's paper documents were reproduced in electronic format" but "any paper data prior to that still exists," What that image is of is his Certificate of Live Birth, it is not his Birth Certificate, "Birth Certificate" specifically refers to the original. It's so ridiculous that I still have to explain that his original exists, it's not jus an electronic record, they have the actual paper document and that is his birth certificate. Ink Falls 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Ink Falls - please read over my previous post until you understand it and then please correct the misstatements in your reply to me. Thanks much. JackOL31 ( talk) 01:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Barack Obama has the original. Is there any evidence of this? Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 01:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The only people I've met who don't think his birth certificate exists are people editing this article, which is probably why it leads people to believe it doesn't exist.
As for your second question, normally we have lots of info for a presidents birth, such as with Lincolns where, as the wikipedia article states: "Abraham Lincoln was born on February 12, 1809, to Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks, two farmers, in a one-room log cabin on the 348-acre (1.4 km2) Sinking Spring Farm, in southeast Hardin County, Kentucky[3] ", whereas with Obama we only know what district of Honolulu he was born without direct assurance of his hospital(which we can pretty much guess anyways).
Jack, if all you are going to do is tell someone to fix the "mistakes" in their post without pointing out any, then don't even bother posting, it's a waste of our time and it's extremely rude.
Just to restate my original argument, for newcomers here who don't want to read the whole argument leading up to this. The image caption calls his certification of live birth, his "birth certificate", but, as I have argued, when you tell someone something is someone's birth certificate, they think it's the thing you get when you were born, not something printed off much later by the state. So I think the caption should be changed to read thus: "Scanned image of Barack Obama's Certification of Live Birth released during the Obama presidential campaign."
Ink Falls 19:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
When people request a copy of their birth certificate they receive this instead yes, but not because it is their birth certificate, but because it is the closest thing to it. The difference is thus: a person hearing "birth certificate" thinks "Hey, that's the document the hospital gives your parents when your born", not "That's the thing the government prints off and sends to you when you request an official certificate proving your birth". Wikipedia uses vernacular that people will understand correctly, right now, as it is, it is misleading them, albeit unintentionally, but it is misleading them into believing the certification of living birth is his original birth certificate, the one he got at birth, of which it is not. Ink Falls 20:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
"This is an encyclopedia, not a venue for original research. We reflect what reliable sources have to say, and if this document is what they call a birth certificate, then we call it a birth certificate. Period" Reliable sources do not call it that, they refer to it as his certification of live birth. For instance "Our Certificate of Live Birth is the standard form, which was modeled after national standards that are acceptable by federal agencies and organizations," Okubo said. "The standard "Certification of Live Birth" that Hawai'i health officials now issue — and was posted on Obama's campaign Web site" The article I has bee quoting doesn't once refer to certificates of living birth as birth certificates, now point my out one article that does. Ink Falls 20:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Because the misunderstanding by some is so deep and so profound, I repeat, the only Hawai'ian birth certificate document you will ever get since the conversion to the new format in 2001 is the CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH. No person born in Hawai'i after 2001 will EVER, EVER, EVER see a "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" format. It has been discontinued (for nearly a freakin' decade). Now, all there is, is the data that Hawai'i stores in their computer files and the new printed form of the birth certificate for ALL new births and ALL replacement requests. All the copies of the old format on file from previous to 2001 are not used (stored away) and they haven't produced the old format for anyone for nearly a decade. JackOL31 ( talk) 23:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
The Sarah Palin section says, in part:
The linking between the question whether Trig is her son to Barack Obama's birth certificate issues has been heavily criticized. [1] Andrew Sullivan, in specific, wrote "Palin has never produced Trig's birth certificate or a single piece of objective medical evidence that proves he is indeed her biological son". [2]
I've converted the refs into inline links there. That presents the Sullivan comment as an example of criticism of the linking. Reading that comment in context, I don't see it as a criticism of the linking. Sullivan characterizes Palin as having "joined or at least mainstreamed the Birther movement", but if he speaks to the linkage between the questions about Obama's and Trig's birth certificates, I missed it. He leads with comments about Palin's birther-ness, but most of the linked article is about Trig's birth circumstances. As I read it, Sullivan's key point in that source relevant to this article is, "The news here is that, to her credit, Palin says that all inquiries into a candidate's veracity, record, associations, and medical history are legitimate forms of inquiry." As I read that, he's saying that questions about Obama's birth certificate go to his natural-born-ness , imply that he may be a liar/perjurer, and are legitimate; questions about Trig's birth certificate imply that Palin may be a liar, and are legitimate. I suggest removing the final sentence and the link to the Sullivan comment, or rewriting the assertions in this section to highlight Sullivan's birther characterizations of Palin and/or the legitimacy of questions about a candidate's veracity, record, associations, and medical history. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
A question of Trig-onometry? Jackiespeel ( talk) 18:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I've redone this edit. That edit changed characterization referring to two separate documents to characterization referring to "different terms for the same document".
There are at least two separate types of documents at issue. One document type is documents similar to the computer-generated certificate which the Obama campaign released, which is imaged here, with the caption of the image being what I have edited. Another document type (what "birthers" would like to see released, at least in photocopy form) is the "vault copy" of the actual piece of paper which was completed and signed by various persons at the birth event. For a comparison of Obama's released certificate (number 151-61-10641) vs. photocopies of vault copies of pieces of paper completed at other birth events at the Kapiolani Medical Center (numbers 151-61-10637 and 151-61-10638) which were near-conterminous in time with Obama's, see www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2303249/replies?c=25 (you'll need to manually browse over there -- WP spam-filters that URL). Also see this past discussion of this point (probably one of several such past discussions). Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I dispute this edit, which changed the caption of an image of a document entitled by the issuing authority as Certification of Live Birth to read
Image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign.
with an edit summary of "This is the correct spelling and definition of the document." I contend that the image should be captioned,
Image of the Certification of Live Birth document released during the Obama presidential campaign.
The disputed edit is essentially a revert of a previous edit by me (which edit did admittedly mistakenly omit the word "Image"), and I bring this up here rather than edit-war. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
(added) Some googling turned up [http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103408 this article], which I mention here for info only (I don't want to get drawn into a discussion about whether WND meets WP:RS criteria). Also please note that I make no assertion re the location of Barack Obama's birth event. I assert only that the image is mis-captioned. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth) and Certificates of Hawaiian Birth are the primary documents used to determine native Hawaiian qualification.
This document is a certification by the State of Hawaii Department of Public Health that the information it contains is a true representation of information contained in some fields of the Certificate of Live Birth document held by the State of Hawaii Department of Public Health.
Barack Obama's Birth Certificate. The use of the term "Certification of Live Birth" in place of "Birth Certificate" has fuelled conspiracy theories, although they are different terms for the same document
Image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign.
While also quoting from the same source that you provided and have read :FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.
Which is one of the reasons why Factcheck refers to the document as Obama's 'original birth certificate'. Because that is how the document is treated by everyone BUT the 'birthers'. It's cited by law, sources and it would be unencyclopedic to refer to the document, in an official manner, as anything other than Obama's birth certificate. DD2K ( talk) 15:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.
Tons of OR in this section. Lets use the specific language that the RS's (factcheck.org?) which have reviewed and discussed this document. If they refer to it plainly as birth certificate, then that is the wording that we should use per WP:V ... if they use COLB, then lets use that wording. Lets make it simple? -- guyzero | talk 06:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Real life events are going to cause me to reduce my WP participation somewhat over the next few weeks or so. This dispute isn't going anywhere anyway, so I'm abandoning it. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:24, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
(1) A "certification" is merely an affidavit by state officials that they have SEEN certain vital records. They are "certifying" that they exist.
(2) A "certificate" is the CONTEMPORANEOUS document executed by physicians and other actual witnesses to the BIRTH.
(3) The documents are clearly quite different. The difference is the same as an "certification" stating that "I have seen the Magna Carta" and the Magna Carta itself.
(4) This article is deliberately misleading in conflating the two documents.
(5) This article is deliberately misleading (and self-contradictory and biased) insofar as Hawaii state officials have given conflicting accounts as to (1) whether the 1961 Certificate of Live Birth" exists (2) what "vital records" they are relying on, if not the Certificate (3) whether they have the authority under the law to reveal what documents exist and what they have examined.
(6) Although this article presents (in a very disorganized an haphazard manner) the various conflicting assertions of state officials, it appears to RESOLVE (without any factual basis) the dispute by concluding (1) Hawaii officials are free to disclose what documents exist, (2) what those documents established and (3) in this particular case, Obama's 1961 Certificate of Live Birth exists and was examined by the officials. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.40.2 ( talk) 15:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
This page is bigger than most articles on whole countries...trim it down? 174.114.231.69 ( talk) 01:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
The section about Donofrio v. Wells is an inaccurate representation of Leo Donofrio's position with regard Roger Calero, John McCain, and Barack Obama. With regard Roger Calero, Leo's objection to his qualification is not that he currently may be a citizen of Nicaragua, but that he was a Nicaraguan citizen at birth. With regard John McCain, Leo's objection to his qualification is not that he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. To the contrary. Leo asserts that John McCain was not born in the Panama Canal Zone (where his father worked) but rather in Colon Hospital in Colon, Panama, (as his birth certificate states) and consequently he was Panamanian citizen at birth. With regard Barack Obama, Leo's objection to his qualification is that he was a British subject at birth, without regard to the place of birth or his simultaneous US citizenship at birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atozxrod ( talk • contribs) 11:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Re this revert of my addition of a {{ cn}} tag, The unsupported assertion is
It has also been claimed that Obama could not be a natural-born citizen because he traveled to Pakistan at a time when there was a ban on United States passport holders entering that country,
I see that page 3 of the Kornhaber article cited to support a direct quote which follows this assertion says, "And in 1981, Obama traveled to Pakistan; at the time, though, there was a ban on American passport holders entering that country." and that page 4 says that there was no travel ban. I don't see any support, however, for the assertion that it has been claimed that this travel refutes his status as a natural-born citizen
I see that this factcheck.org article says that a claim that his trip to Pakistan in 1981 proves he must not have been a U.S. citizen was advanced in 2008, but it doesn't say who made the claim. Such a claim would be nonsensical, of course, but it would be nice to have a cite of a source showing who made the nonsensical claim and what association the claimant had.
I see that this snopes.com article seems to attribute the claim to someone named Paul Hollrah. This answers.com article speaks of someone named Paul R Hollrah as being a fairly prolific writer of on-line political commetary with a seemingly extreme right-wing view who lives in Missouri and is listed as a former Presidential Elector from Kansas (sounds like this might be the same person), and describes him as a person who goes about spewing fake information that no one cares about in an effort to stir up false controversy and get more famous (their words, not mine). One wonders whether this is the source of the claim alleged and, if not, what the source is. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
In the news today, 'Birther' Lt. Col. Terry Lakin to be court-martialed for refusing order to deploy to Afghanistan. While it isn't a lawsuit as Cook v. Obama was regarding a refusal to serve, the court martial is a direct result of birther advocacy. Thoughts? Tarc ( talk) 18:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Re this edit, is this cited and quoted source ("Barack Obama was, without question, born in the U.S., and he is eligible to be president, but experts on conspiracy theories say that won't ever matter to those who believe otherwise. " — I think the quote, though, quotes an anonymous Solon headline-writter, not the bylined article author), a piece by Solon staff writer Alex Koppelman, whose bio page at Solon acknowledges that he has been described "... by Canadian political blogger Kathy Shaidle as 'a delusional liberal pantywaist...' " considered to be News or Opinion for purposes of this article? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
John McCain was definetly born outside the US.
Barack Obama's parents, and the State of Hawaii could not foresee that he would become President, and thus saw no reason to ensure that all requisite documentation would be kept (and copied to relevant other places).
The birthers complain about this opacity, not about McCain's not abiding by the spirit of the constitution.
Therefore they 'are complaining about something completely different.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 ( talk) 14:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Can someone direct me to where Wikipedia discusses the distinction between opinion citation vs legitimate fact-checked reporting-type citations? I am concerned that the Wiki article section:
"The Obama campaign released a 2007 certified copy of his short form birth certificate (in this instance referred to as a "Certification of Live Birth") that states Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961. Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" birth certificate, and that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate". These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations, every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials, a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate.[8]"
In particular, the Salon.com citation [8] is a pure opinion article, containing no evidence or first-hand information verifying anything in the article. The author makes numerous claims as fact without supporting them using agreed upon facts or logic. Moreover, the author uses several illogical arguments to support his position, including the "so and so believes in this theory and he is a nutcase, therefore the argument for this conspiracy theory is definitely untrue." argument. How was this citation ever included in wiki? It seems blatantly opinion and contains no factual information one way or the other.
Surely, there is a distinction between a blogger's opinion statement (or a newspaper's oped piece) and an exerpt from a journal article written by a professional providing firsthand information of observation and fact. Agreed, there are many grey areas in between. So what is wiki's guidance on this? I read the Wiki article for Verifiable and it has made me even more confused. Specifically:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.
Is this a statement about whether or not the link in question is a real link? a comment that the statement was made by a particular author? Is the link meant to confirm that the author stated by the wiki citation maker is in fact the true author of the comment/statement. Surely the standard cannot be that trivial. If so, then any blogger comment is sufficient for citation. Can someone offer a link which has some examples of what is accepted as a 'sufficient citation' and what is not? thanks. So many of the other conspiracy theory wiki articles are done so much better than this one, which is clearly biased in 2 or 3 sentences. Detah ( talk) 18:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
We're not here to discuss the lateast Birther-rumor-of-the-day. Tarc ( talk) 13:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
The Minister of Lands in Kenya, in debate in the Kenyan parliament on Thursday 25 March 2010, made explicit reference to the fact that America has elected a president who was born in Kenya. It is on the official record - this minister is proud of the fact that a KENYAN has become the American president. Check pages 29 to 31 - the statement is on page 31. [7] Only those who are afraid of the truth or don't want to admit to a possibility (that should be examined) are going to delete this information. Which is censorship. Do you have the courage to examine the information for yourself, or are you so afraid that you'll delete it and keep others from examining it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.65.253.235 ( talk) 00:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
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I don't agree with Tarc's hatnote. This article is about the conspiracy theories, so talk-page discussion of the latest Birther rumor-of-the-day is appropriate for considering whether that particular rumor merits inclusion. JamesMLane t c 11:12, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Naming the wiki "conspiracy theories" carries a negative connotation. "conspiracy theories" should be changed to "Controversy" - as it is more neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 01:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Q1: Isn't the use of the terms "conspiracy theories" and "fringe" in the article title and body a violation of Wikipedia's policy on neutrality?
A1: No. Reliable sources have treated and referred to the topic as a fringe conspiracy theory, rather than a legitimate controversy. The article reflects these sources as per Wikipedia's policy of verifiability. Consensus on the article title has been established through a RFC and has been repeatedly reaffirmed since.?
This is very interesting. I only suggest that the title change from conspiracy theory to controversy, and you reject it. I find it odd that this should cause Wikipedia's/Barrack's gate keepers such angst. The title is - in fact - not neutral. The only way that it would be ruled neutral is if the person(s) that makes such decisions is/are biased themselves. It makes me wonder if my past and current donations to Wikipedia have been going to an organization that isn't what it claims to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 02:29, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The financial backers of Obama's campaign would not have wanted to waste their money on someone who was automatically disqualified. Those arguing that Barack Obama is disqualified from being President have, over the course of two years, seemingly not come up with anything more than 'arguing over linguistic details' (or so it seems). Have the birthers mae any attempt to amend the constitutional/legal requirements on the requirements for the President's place of birth to remove the seeming ambiguity? If all they do is to describe the situation (as they see it) rather than act to change or clarify the points under discussion, then there is a tendency to call the whole thing a conspiracy theory (and sometimes things persist in being misnamed). Jackiespeel ( talk) 19:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Policy (not guidelines, but policy) explicitly permits article titles with non-neutral negative connotations, e.g. " Teapot Dome scandal", " Murder of George Tiller", "when they are used by a consensus of the sources". On the other hand, "..., encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality." (neutrality in the WP sense, not an absence of opinion, but an unbiased representation of the range of opinion, appropriately weighted to consensus, editorially neutral). And "If a genuine titling controversy exists, and is relevant to the subject matter of the article, the controversy should be covered in the article text and substantiated with reliable sources." My casual impression is that the article title accurately reflects the consensus of reliable sources, but I haven't done the work to back up that impression. Someone who can set their opinions aside for a critical review should do that work. Studerby ( talk) 19:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I am the OP - my only point here is that there is widespread disagreement on this topic and your are prejudicing readers towards one position over the other. Moreover, the entire article reads like it is written with an agenda. Polls show that there are a large number of people that think there is a reason why Obama signed an executive order sealing his personal records the first day he was in office. By stating in the title that it is a conspiracy theory, you prejudice the reader. That does not mean that it isn't a conspiracy, as people are conspiring everyday in all aspects and walks fo life. Rather, it means that you are gaming WikiPedia's neutrality rule for personal/polticial reasons - but I imagine that it goes unchecked because you are on the "right" side of the argument. There is a reason why wikipedia exists, and this is not it. I will be very hesitant to donate any more money to this organization until it does something about the poltiical hacks and self-anointed "social engineers" that seem to plague WikiPedia. You should strive to err on the side of caution, and this title and article should be re-written so that it doesn't read like a political talking points memo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.37.107 ( talk) 03:57, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I laughed out loud when this edit to the Wikipedia policy on Article Titles popped up on my watchlist. "Where articles have descriptive titles, choose titles that do not seem to pass judgment, implicitly or explicitly, on the subject.". Ha! Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Just putting in my two cents: I strongly agree that this article title is a black eye for Wikipedia. Personally, I think that the theories about Barack Obama's citizenship are absolutely conspiracy theories - but I recognize that that is a personal opinion of mine. Wikipedia's stance, apparently, is that if a source like the New York Times fails to make that same recognition, then the bias becomes "sourced," and sourced bias can be repeated. I'd like to think we're better than that. Mindlessly repeating the bias of some journalist who happens to work for the New York Times is no better than mindlessly inserting our own editorial bias into the article. If that's Wikipedia "policy," the policy needs to be revisited. 66.224.70.106 ( talk) 22:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
It is alright to use it in the title. See also Q1 at the top of the page. A conspiracy theory differs from normal speculation because it cannot be true and does not follow normal logic. TFD ( talk) 01:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)* Moon landing conspiracy theories — Conspiracy theories which aim to show that the moon landings were fake, while probably not held as true by very many people, have generated enough discussion in books, television programs, debunking statements from NASA, etc., that they deserve an article on Wikipedia.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe#Sufficiently_notable_for_dedicated_articles
Only an unreasonable person would believe the moon is made of cheese, the earth was flat, or that Obama was born in Kenya. It's not the duty of Wikipedia to make those people feel better because of their beliefs, it's Wikipedia's duty to have verifiable articles. And only an extreme partisan would look at Conservapedia as an answer to some kind of "liberal" bias of Wikipedia. Which no amount of catering to would solve. Or at least not until Wikipedia became Conservapedia. I can see this is a circular argument with no end and that no amount of rationality or logic would solve, so I will withdraw. DD2K ( talk) 01:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
The lede says that the Hawaii birth certificate objections "have been debunked numerous times by media investigations, every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials, a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate" — and an article from Salon.com is offered as the source for this statement. While I think this article is a reasonably good support for the claim that conspiracy theories exist on this subject, it seems to be a weak source for the claim that the birth certificate objections have been definitively debunked. Part of my problem, I think, is that the tone of the article is more like an opinion piece rather than a dispassionate report.
I'm inclined to want to either remove this "source" entirely, or else move it to some more appropriate part of the article. I think the statement in the lede can probably stay, but one or more of the sources cited later on in the article could be copied or moved up in place of the Salon.com story. I don't want to do anything major along these lines, though, without first seeing what others think. Comments? Richwales ( talk) 00:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original...
Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth
The article does not make clear that what the birthers call the "original" birth certificate on file with the county in Hawaii is the "Certificate of Live Birth." [my emphasis]. This is the long form birth certificate issued by the county, as opposed to the "Certification of Live Birth," [my emphasis], or "short form birth certificate" (also issued by the county). What the birthers want to see is the Certificate of Live Birth. The article leaves out an important piece of information, the actual title of that birth certificate.
Currently the article reads this way: The Obama campaign released a 2007 certified copy of his short form birth certificate (in this instance referred to as a "Certification of Live Birth") that states Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961. Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" birth certificate, and that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate".
I believe that this should be rewritten. Gosseyn1 ( talk) 19:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
This is not true. Obama's parents received an original birth certificate when he was born, and this is what the state officials have seen. This article is written in a misleading fashion. The article states that Hawaii currently gives out only birth certifications, but neglects to mention that they used to-in the past- give out certificates like they did in Obama's case way back when he was born. Obama has a birth certificate which he is not releasing to the public even though it could easily dispel these conspiracy theories, the best reason I have heard for not releasing it is because he want the Birthers to hang around in order to discredit the Tea Party movement and "the Right" in general. Btw the same article which says the Health Department "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate." also says "a "certification of live birth" is, in fact, a short-form official birth certificate" which is what the Birthers argument is anyway. Ink Falls 20:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
No, it's not accurate, it's completely false. When you say the change I proposed, are you referring to the new caption, which I didn't write?, or the slight edit to the caption I made? All I did was change "seeing the "original birth certificate"" to "seeing a scanned image of the "original birth certificate"". Let's move this argument to the new section. Ink Falls 00:00, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I think when they say original they mean as in the "origins" of the image. I'll come back with someone else referring to the original and actually meaning the original(probably not for awhile though). Ink Falls 03:45, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Please take a look at this section. It appears to have been vandalized. -- William S. Saturn ( talk) 23:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Not notable??? Huh?? The guy is a major general who endorsed disobeying an order. That's very notable by itself. If you don't think he's notable, nominate his article for an AfD. Victor Victoria ( talk) 13:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Since it's been over a week and he hasn't come out denying that it's his voice, you can take it to be his voice. Victor Victoria ( talk) 13:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
How about this? It seems to be from a local newspaper in the town where Lakin grew up. 96.32.11.201 ( talk) 21:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, I pretty much have my hands full with the previous section in this thread. I'm glad everyone appreciated my small suggestion. And I would recommend that people read WP:NPA. 96.32.11.201 ( talk) 23:19, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Take a look at the former caption.
"Scanned image of Barack Obama's Birth Certificate released during the Obama presidential campaign."
This is not true, this is not a scanned image of his original birth certificate. His original was produced in 1961, this was printed out in 2007 and isn't a birth certificate but a "certification of living birth" which doesn't feature such info as the doctor who performed the delivery or the hospital(like an actual birth certificate) or even look like the original birth certificate. The point is that it's not a scanned image of his original
Current wording(emphasis mine)
"Although the Obama campaign released this "certificate of live birth" that was printed by a computer in 2007, conspiracy theorists insist on seeing a scanned image of the "original birth certificate" that was created in the year 1961, and whose existence has been verified by Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo."
How is this "birther-ish spin" when this caption clearly states that the original does exist.
The new caption clearly explains to people coming here that they are not looking at a scanned image of his original birth certificate but rather something else, and that the reason isn't because the original no longer exists.
Ink Falls 23:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
"Perhaps the most common argument of those questioning Obama's eligibility is that he should just release his full, original birth certificate, rather than the shorter certification, which is a copy. ... Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health, released a statement saying she has verified that the state has the original birth certificate on record"
This is why it's so misleading, you even believe that the original is lost somewhere, destined to never surface when various government officials have seen it and verified its existence.
Ink Falls 00:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Obama campaign's FightTheSmears.com website---FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship.
Barack Obama’s Official Birth Certificate
When one goes to get your birth certificate, that is what they give you. It's regarded as your original birth certificate(with the raised seal), and that is what is recognized by every official outlet. As described by Hawaiian law:
§338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.(b) 'Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original...
That is not his original. He has an original copy which has been verified, I just want it specified that the image is a copy, but that his original has been verified. You can say, "This is a copy, but it is considered as the original" but any other way will misinform people that this is the one printed at his birth, which it isn't. Ink Falls 00:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
That is what you said: "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate."
This is what the article says "his "original" birth certificate" whose existence has been verified by Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii's Department of Health."
Why are you denying that his original birth certificate exists? Everybody acknowledges that it exists. That picture is of a copy.
Ink Falls 00:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
No we have not stipulated that the articles refer to the copy as the original! Does that even make any sense to you? It was a wikipedia poster who said they refer to the the copy as the original.
"And since all certified(raised seals) copies are to be considered the original birth certificates, while the State
never issues the old versions The document released is Obama's original birth certificate."
That was a wikipedia poster talking. When the articles say they have examined and verified the existence of the original, they literally mean the original, not the copy.
Ink Falls 02:16, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship.
I think that referring to it as the "original birth certificate" in that example was an isolated instance. Here is a quote from this newspaper article. "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." "We don't destroy vital records," Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said. "That's our whole job, to maintain and retain vital records." Ink Falls 04:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
But there is a difference, the original contains info not present in the short form version, and the fact that Obama has not released the original is what is fueling these conspiracy theorists. Also, it's up to the people coming here to decide if there is a difference between the two or not, and we should inform them that what they are looking at is not his original. If we say in the article that he has not released the original, then they will look at the top and say "wtf?" and be confused as to why we have a photo of the original and yet are saying he hasn't released the original. Ink Falls 16:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
We don't know specifically which hospital he was born in which we do of all the other presidents. The only one who has gotten any information wrong is you in assuming there is no original birth certificate which there is. Try attacking my argument instead of making your pointless ad hominems. Ink Falls 18:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Hey - folks, please, WP:NOTAFORUM. If it's not directly related to improving the article, post it on a place that cares, not here. Ravensfire ( talk) 23:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Happy, I'll get back to you on that info, as you are asking for a lot. Also quit diverting from the argument by saying I don't think he's an American because he's black and liberal, all I'm arguing is that he hasn't released his original birth certificate(which is available) and that which should distinguish in the image caption between the two so that people are not accidentally led to believe that that is the original, but instead a copy.
I'm reading your comment " he doesn't look like all those other guys on the dollar bills, so he can't be a real American? " and am wondering where you are getting this from? Are you implying that I am racist for wanting to distinguish in the image caption that we are not looking at his original but rather a copy?
Ink Falls 19:35, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
"You should read the above arguments where all the other posters continually argue that Obama's original birth certificate is lost somewhere in the filing cabinets of the Health Department and can't be found before you comment on others not being able to read." You see how I said all the others, I did not say I think there's no original. Then I said, contradicting all the other posters who argued that the original birth certificate is lost "Here is a quote from this newspaper article. "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." "We don't destroy vital records," Health Department spokeswoman Janice Okubo said. "That's our whole job, to maintain and retain vital records." These sentences should make perfect sense to anybody reading them. Ink Falls 19:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
First off, I am the one who had to originally explain (before you entered) that the short form birth certificate is not a photocopy but a different version printed off with most of the same info. Secondly, they do not match "EXACTLY" as the shortform does not include the attending physician, nor the hospital, and while the article mentions all the evidence points to one hospital the hospital itself cannot confirm nor deny its where the birth took place. Could we compromise and just call it what it is in the caption, Obama's shortform birth certificate, that doesn't sound long-winded at all. Ink Falls 04:29, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
JackOL31 ( talk) 19:06, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
DD2K, your name is signed after the comment that I quoted along with Jethro's, I didn't originally see Jethro's name because it was so small, it's an easy mistake to make. Jack, they do not have just an electronic copy they have the original paper document, as I have stated before and as I have already presented with this quote: "Hawai'i's Health Department confirmed yesterday that it has President Obama's original Aug. 4, 1961, birth certificate in storage..." As you stated "In 2001, Hawai'i's paper documents were reproduced in electronic format" but "any paper data prior to that still exists," What that image is of is his Certificate of Live Birth, it is not his Birth Certificate, "Birth Certificate" specifically refers to the original. It's so ridiculous that I still have to explain that his original exists, it's not jus an electronic record, they have the actual paper document and that is his birth certificate. Ink Falls 21:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Ink Falls - please read over my previous post until you understand it and then please correct the misstatements in your reply to me. Thanks much. JackOL31 ( talk) 01:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Barack Obama has the original. Is there any evidence of this? Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 01:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The only people I've met who don't think his birth certificate exists are people editing this article, which is probably why it leads people to believe it doesn't exist.
As for your second question, normally we have lots of info for a presidents birth, such as with Lincolns where, as the wikipedia article states: "Abraham Lincoln was born on February 12, 1809, to Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks, two farmers, in a one-room log cabin on the 348-acre (1.4 km2) Sinking Spring Farm, in southeast Hardin County, Kentucky[3] ", whereas with Obama we only know what district of Honolulu he was born without direct assurance of his hospital(which we can pretty much guess anyways).
Jack, if all you are going to do is tell someone to fix the "mistakes" in their post without pointing out any, then don't even bother posting, it's a waste of our time and it's extremely rude.
Just to restate my original argument, for newcomers here who don't want to read the whole argument leading up to this. The image caption calls his certification of live birth, his "birth certificate", but, as I have argued, when you tell someone something is someone's birth certificate, they think it's the thing you get when you were born, not something printed off much later by the state. So I think the caption should be changed to read thus: "Scanned image of Barack Obama's Certification of Live Birth released during the Obama presidential campaign."
Ink Falls 19:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
When people request a copy of their birth certificate they receive this instead yes, but not because it is their birth certificate, but because it is the closest thing to it. The difference is thus: a person hearing "birth certificate" thinks "Hey, that's the document the hospital gives your parents when your born", not "That's the thing the government prints off and sends to you when you request an official certificate proving your birth". Wikipedia uses vernacular that people will understand correctly, right now, as it is, it is misleading them, albeit unintentionally, but it is misleading them into believing the certification of living birth is his original birth certificate, the one he got at birth, of which it is not. Ink Falls 20:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
"This is an encyclopedia, not a venue for original research. We reflect what reliable sources have to say, and if this document is what they call a birth certificate, then we call it a birth certificate. Period" Reliable sources do not call it that, they refer to it as his certification of live birth. For instance "Our Certificate of Live Birth is the standard form, which was modeled after national standards that are acceptable by federal agencies and organizations," Okubo said. "The standard "Certification of Live Birth" that Hawai'i health officials now issue — and was posted on Obama's campaign Web site" The article I has bee quoting doesn't once refer to certificates of living birth as birth certificates, now point my out one article that does. Ink Falls 20:17, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Because the misunderstanding by some is so deep and so profound, I repeat, the only Hawai'ian birth certificate document you will ever get since the conversion to the new format in 2001 is the CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH. No person born in Hawai'i after 2001 will EVER, EVER, EVER see a "CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH" format. It has been discontinued (for nearly a freakin' decade). Now, all there is, is the data that Hawai'i stores in their computer files and the new printed form of the birth certificate for ALL new births and ALL replacement requests. All the copies of the old format on file from previous to 2001 are not used (stored away) and they haven't produced the old format for anyone for nearly a decade. JackOL31 ( talk) 23:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)