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http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story
Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."
Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times
"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007
Obama's statements in this article and in several public forums contradict what these sources say and that should be noted in the article. If the Obama supporters don't think there is anything wrong with having been registered as a Muslim, they should have no problem with this fact being in the article and its NPOV becaue having been is Muslim is not a bad thing, but the facts are the facts.
I hope we can dicuss this civilly and hopefully find a sentence that represents accurately this issue and that everyone can agree on. But consistently undoing my attempts is not the way to accomplish this and violates wikipedia's 3 undo edit rule. Rebyid 00:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Are my quotes from the article not accurate? Are you saying he was NOT registered as a Muslim in both of his elementary schools?! This went uncontradicted in the article. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Rebyid (
talk •
contribs).
1. Interesting. You are conceding that Obama's father was a Muslim. You will have to take that up with the others on this talk page who insist that he was an atheist. See Discussion on Origin of Obama's first name above.
2. It also should be noted that under Muslim law, religion passes paternally, so if Obama's father was Muslim that means he was born a Muslim. Rebyid 22:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
It's good to be back. Rebyid 23:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. </two cents> Fifty7 00:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that I added something to this article about Barack Obama's opposition to a bill protecting infant victims of botched abortions and it was deleted by another user MINUTES later? Can somebody explain why CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of Barack Obama is deleted with no explanation? Also, there is NOTHING negative about him in the whole article. Compare that to any article about a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate and you will see what I mean. But for now, I will re-add the article from world net daily and hope that none of the censors (obama supporters/staffers) don't delete for fear it will take away from the positiveness of this fluff piece.
Has anyone else noticed how any mention of anything controversial regarding Obama does not survive in this article. It appears to be a tool for the Obama '08 campaign and they are stomping out all opposition in fascistic style. Can someone please report what's been going on here to the wikipedia administrators.
Does anyone else here smell a rat? The lightning speed with which any edit that put Obama in a bad light by so many users is downright frightening. The pro-Obama editors seem to all be vertible experts in wikipedia policy and regular folk are dicredited relentlessly undone and pushed aside even when their edits offer factual and sourced information. When one pro-Obama user has undone an edit 3 times, another one pops up MINUTES later to to do the fourth ensuring that none of them will violate the 3 unedit rules. In an election cycle, it is scary that this sort of control of information could take place.
The sheer SPEED of removal of these edits points to the fact that there must be a staff of editors paid to moniter this page. How else could so many people be watching this article at the same time all with the same agenda? It is high time we report the behavior on this page to Wikipedia:Resolving disputes disputes for an investigation. Rebyid 16:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
If you guys are not being paid to be on this page all day, then how can you afford to do it? Are you all independently wealthy and have nothing better to do? I find that hard to beleive. Most people edit articles in their SPARE TIME, not ALL THE TIME. So depite you're sarcasm I still think it's suspicious and should be investigated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.125.108.189 ( talk • contribs).
Okay, how about we discuss whether the segment below should be included in the article rather than adding and reverting it without any real discussion. -- Bobblehead 03:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. However, this can be construed as a “no” vote as a vote in the affirmative is required to pass legislation in Illinois State Senate.
[1]
[2]
[3]
|
” |
The Nathan Gonzalez blog post is not a reliable source. Consensus in past Talk discussion is clear on the "present" issue, and describing "present" votes as "against" votes is decidedly POV-pushing. Abortion advocacy is already covered (from better sources) in the article. Italiavivi 03:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
(starting back on the margin) Italiavivi, I generally agree with you. However, I think the one italicized sentence above (my rewriting of the original section), with only the citation from The Hill, might be relevant at the end of the political advocacy section. It clarifies why those people were mad at Obama. Dce7 04:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to understand that he has been criticized from both sides about the "present" votes. Please note that the footnote (122 presently) already points to an article (page 3 of that article) that talks about the criticism from a pro-choice rival for the nomination regarding the "present" votes. So the paragraphs as added were misleading and extremely POV. Since the criticism from the pro-choice side is already discussed in note 122, I added a line and the reference from The HIll to that note to indicate the criticism from the anti-abortion groups about those "present" votes. There is now balance, and links to articles that more fully explain the two sets of criticism. More than that, I think, is unwarranted, and would be POV-pushing again. Tvoz | talk 05:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems more neutral. Adding a sentence saying that he recieved a 100% rating from NARAL seems hardly a way to thouroughly cover this issue. Maybe we should add how strange it is that a 100% NARAL ratee only felt strong enough to vote "present" on this bill?
"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been highly supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he did not mention how he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no,” and how giving medical attention to babies who were already born as the result of abortion abortions, as the bills required, "overturned" any existing laws."
-- Pic82101 8:45, 8 April 2007 (EST)
What do you want Tvoz, 500 links??? You just can't stand criticism and Obama's failure to explain his actions can you? I don't like him and I don't hate him but this is a BIG issue considering that he's running for PRESIDENT which requires an enormous decision making capability that he clearly lacked on many issues including this, when he was in the Illinois Senate. Voting "present" is a sign a politician can't make up his mind or fears the political consequences of casting a straight vote. Just because criticism of him disagrees with YOU it doesn't mean it's not neutral. And stop claiming the Born Alive controversy is something that doesn't mean anything. I including his response to the issue and showed the errors in it. I am not pushing any POV but you seem to be doing a bit of it with your constant censoring and disagreeable attitude towards anybody who wants to bring some balance to this article. And where did you include the "present" controversy in the article and where are both pov? If I missed it, please quote me where I diverged from the facts in my paragraph and I will be more than happy to drop the whole matter. Hmmm...
How am I pushing MY pov here? Did I make all these facts up? No. Am I offending your support of Barack Obama? Maybe. But we're in a free wiki where facts matter more than opinions. But anything critical of Obama that is true is fanatically censored by you who seem to be more concerned about pushing your povs than having a true and balanced article? If this was any other politician I can assure that the criticism section would be a whole lot bigger. Let's be factual, not opinionated.
-- Pic82101 11:54, 8 April 2007 (EST)
O.k., this is the talk page. Let's discuss this paragraph.
"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no." He also failed to mention how giving medical attention to babies who were already born "overturned" any existing laws."
Pic82101 00:21, 8 April 2007 (EST)
This article is over 100k long, which seems to indicate that the creation of a number of child articles are in order here. The Senate career section is almost 30k in length on it's own and could be easily copied and pasted into a
Senate career of Barack Obama article and then expanded/reformatted into a quality article. I could even see the senate campaign moved off to the career article with a short6 summary of the sections left here hitting the high points of the election and his senate career. The cultural and political image section is also ripe for being made into a summary for a child article. The political advocacy section and the presidential election section seem to be excessively long for summaries of another article. I know there isn't a chance in heck of getting this article down to 32k without leaving a pile of
drek behind, but it should be doable to reduce the length down to a more acceptable and quality 60k with a proper application of
WP:SS. What does everyone else think? --
Bobblehead
02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Consider
KMCtoday 01:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
From User_talk:Italiavivi:
I saw your edit on Obama reverting mine. Actually, the vast majority of my edit is just to add "citation needed" when things are not referenced and very little editing of the actual text. The Obama article is the type that should be very well referenced because of the nature of it. Whoever wrote the original police part is very biased because that's not what the reference said at all. He may have got the FOP endorsement but he got a very chilly reception at ANOTHER police association meeting (which is what the reference was about). There, the audience applauded only once, which shows how little support he has there. So here we have a sentence in the wikipedia article which is clearly POV hence my correction. KMCtoday 03:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Editing was initially just to add citations when big error was noted. However, you made corrections that were along the same line of thought in trying to more accurately have this article reflect what the citation was actually saying. KMCtoday 20:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
From User_talk:Italiavivi:
You (Italiavivi) mention concensus. There is agreement by FCYTravis. However, the point is NPOV, not necessarily concensus if consensus is for inaccurate reporting. Hitler had concensus. He won the vote fair and square. Even Bush won the election. I am for accountability, i.e. citing material and citing it accurately. This is for not only Obama, but also Romney. I am not picking on Obama specifically. I have raised citation issues for Bush, too. KMCtoday 01:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
After a bit of spamming by an overeager congressional worker, I noticed that some members were not noted as such. Would it be alright to add to the "Senate career" section, after the ending sentence beginning "He is a member of the following Senate committees:" a note saying ", and also a member of the Congressional Black Caucus." ? Shenme 23:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. While I am inclined to support Obama (we're both left-handed smokers), my BS detector lights up a little after reading this. In the Political Image section it describes him as being neither lefty nor righty. He's been against the Iraq war since day one (a position typically reserved for the extremes on both sides - like Ron Paul or Denis Kucinich), is pro-choice and advocates universal healthcare. In 2007 America this combination puts you on the left. Not neccessarily far from the center, but absolutely NOT on the right half of the scale. If there are some lesser known positions that move him to the right, you really ought to mention them. I'd have to unfortunately agree with the swiftboaters above who speculate that this page has been 'caputured' by members of his campaign. 24.98.251.37 23:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know just why he is so popular in the democratic party. How does someone so young and with so little experience get seen as such a visionary? Everything I have read about his politics leads me believe he is moderate democrat ideologically close to both Clintons. I do not get any notion that he is suggesting anything particularly new. Yet there is all the buz around him versus any other Democratic Senator? If anyone has some ideas about this I would very much like to see them discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Custodiet ipsos custodes ( talk • contribs).
Then whose place is it to speculate???? Hello? The point of the discussion page is go places and talk about things that wont make it on the main page. (Again I am not advocating putting original research on the main page.) One could though explain with sources his popularity. If it can be done this way it is essential to an article about him. In the future when people look back at him in history they will be wondering why he was so popular. This is a very important point. History is not just dry facts but an explanation of them to provide coherence to those facts. If this is not the place where is the place??? Custodiet ipsos custodes 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Hellfire made an edit in September. Essentially, it says that Obama got the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police and a citation is given. However, looking at that citation [2], the Chicago Tribune article actually said " 'I don't see him as pro-law enforcement," said Wheaton police Chief Mark Field. "I could spend hours with this man talking about his voting record. It is very anti-public safety." The crowd of 60 police officials applauded only once during Obama's 20-minute remarks. The whole article is about the chilly reception that Obama got.
This does not seem like very balanced reporting by Hellfire. It seems like there is a POV being pushed, i.e. trying to convince the reader that Obama has police support.
It's really very hard for me to see that this is other than biased editing by Hellfire. Furthermore, it wasn't just an honest mistake in editing because Hellfire recently reverted Italiavivi's correction accurately summarizing the citation back to the biased, one sided summary of the Chicago Tribune citation. I was just editing to make sure edits have citations when I found this irregularity. (For now, I'm just checking facts on this and other news articles, not really writing much). Let's not pick on Hellfire for now but the question remains, it's really hard to see why the long standing wording isn't pushing a POV by being biased editing. KMCtoday 20:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
What seems like the real story is that Obama did get the FOP endorsement but there's significant dislike of his policies. That's why Obama got the icy reception at his talk. To be applauded only once is worse than the chilly reception that Bush got at the NAACP where they applauded a few times. When the sentence was placed before, it essentially said "FOP supports Obama" and gave the citation. Anyone reading the citation can see that it's deceptive (whether intentional or not). A balanced viewpoint would be "some support, but some police oppose".
An example of being one sided like the above would be to say "Hillary supports the war" citing a newspaper article which might have said "Hillary supported the war by voting for such and such bill. Now she is for a planned, stage withdrawal." FCYTravis' revision just corrects it. It does not say Obama is wrong. KMCtoday 01:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little confused as to the nature of this latest round of edit warring. The primary purpose of the source used to support Obama's endorsement is to report the subdued response he got from Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police so while the wording proposed by FCYTravis and KMCtoday might be a little too much POV, not mentioning the subdued reaction at all fails to provide all points of view. Can't have one and not the other, so either remove his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police or give the subdued reaction from IACP equal time in a less POV manner.-- Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel Barak's picture is from a neutral point of view. This looks like an image from the campaign for his presidency. Before you judge compare it to the image for Tom Delay. Don't get me wrong, I think Delay's is fair, the images IMHO should be more raw photos, not photo ops or in a good light. -- User:kibbled_bits 11:17 PM, 9 April 2007
It seems to be here. Myspace advertised it in the "Cool New People" section. Any way or reason to fit it in his wiki article? -- Ubiq 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Using the words controversy and scrutiny are meaningless-- what did he do that was terrible? Nothing.
Smearing another human being requires very little intelligence. People who love to do it the most tend to be of low character themselves.
128.138.230.150 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.
If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.
I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.
"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [3]
Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.
In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [5]
Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.
Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [6]
As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [7]
Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [8], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [9] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [10] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [11] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [12]
Sen. Obama is a smoker [13], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [14]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [15] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [16] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [17]
Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [18] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.
See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [19] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [20] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [21], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [22]
Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [23], each owned two slaves.
During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [24]
In regards to the murders at Virginia Tech he said: "There's also another kind of violence that we're going to have to think about. It's not necessarily the physical violence, but the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways," he said, and goes on to catalogue other forms of "violence."
There's the 'verbal violence' of Imus.
There's "the violence of men and women who have worked all their lives and suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them because their job is moved to another country."
There's "the violence of children whose voices are not heard in communities that are ignored,""there's a lot of different forms of violence in our society, and so much of it is rooted in our incapacity to recognize ourselves in each other."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070419/cm_rcp/obama_not_ready_for_prime_time
This may be one of the biggest blunders yet in the primaries. If this article has any trace of NPOV left it should be mentioned. It may very well cost him the election. 71.183.135.248 01:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Now bring on all the Obama fans who run this page to predictibly tell me why this is not notable. C'mon Tvoz, Italiativiti, BobbleHead. You guys can figure out ways anything is not notable when it hurts your candidate. So let's hear it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.135.248 ( talk • contribs).
What makes this article be labeled "random"? Search and ye shall find several other articles. But I'll be darned if there aren't other opinion peices cited in this article. I think the last cite if from the Huffington Post if I'm not mistaken. But then again... that was flattering so it get's in. This is not so it won't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.135.248 ( talk • contribs)
@the person who said it would cost him the elections: i think not, his numbers have gone up in the latest polls, he is equal with Hilary now so this isn't particularly notable. We shouldn't put it comments he has made that don't affect anyone's opinion in him. And i don't think it is a good source.
The picture we have at the top of the page is the third picture in the last three days. I don't have any particular preference, but it would be a good idea to keep it relatively stable. Thoughts? — mrmaroon25 ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to Sen. Obama's official Senate portrait, standing in front of the Capitol? This is the image that should be used. Italiavivi 22:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I have some substantive edits I'd like to make involving Obama staffers and his campaign that aren't covered in the article, but its on protection. What's the timeline for taking it off protection? I'm also a new user - is that the problem? thanks Nitroleviathan 15:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This entire wikipedia article seems like it was written by the candidate himself...or possibly a Republican wishing to stamp out Hillary Clinton. Clinton supporters, Obama is just Republican ploy to stop Clinton at whatever cost... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.134.139 ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 April 2007
This is very likely because when some slightly less than positive (but not negative) info is placed, it immediately gets reverted by a very loyal band of 3-4 users who only allow the most positive info. This is proof of POV.
Lawman8
23:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In archive 8, there is an interesting discussion about Obama's police endorsement. The current language may give the reader the impression that he has police support but the real story is that he possibly is OPPOSED by a majority of police. See the very informative article that's listed as a footnote (reference). If so, the current version (before my edit \) is POV, contrary to wikipedia policy. I hope Obama supporters don't just plain revert it but abide by NPOV.
Lawman8
18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not say that the only person would reverts to pro-Obama language is an Obama supporter. However, an Obama supporter is likely to do so. I also see that there was no edit war but rather those favoring POV pro-Obama language kicked out KCtoday. The communist party does that. They send people with NPOV and opposite views to the labor camp. This is not to say that Obama editors here are communist but they MAY behave in the same way. Let's try to find compromise language!
Lawman8
17:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
::I was reading the content of KMCtoday's comments, not the mechanics of the ban. Some of the comments make sense. Hitler drank water. However, water is not bad just because Hitler drank it.
Lawman8
18:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Tvoz, you say to discuss things on talk page. Yet, you just revert and don't add talk page comments. I have made yet another attempt for compromise language, not simply reverting. This is discussion, not edit warring. Edit warring is when you just revert.
Lawman8
20:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
It is only disruptive if one considers that trying to eliminate NPOV is disruptive. Actually, advocating a POV view is disruptive to the whole wikipedia community, not just this article. The behavior of bobblehead is wrong because he says to talk on the talk page yet reverts without doing so or even offering compromise language.
Lawman8
21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Lawman8 confirmed as another sockpuppet of banned User: dereks1x, again attempting to evade his ban. I struck out his comments. Tvoz | talk 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite understand the 'African-American' thing or hybridised nationality nomenclature very well, but I understand Africa is the content of origin of his fathers side, but there's no mention anywhere in the article of his middle eastern origins? Is this because in the current American socio-political climate there is a dogma around the middle east forming? Or has he personally overlooked this because of such? Jachin 06:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this article needs a link to Barack Obama's MySpace account. It seems legit enough, but I'm just wondering if this is the sort of link that is worthy of inclusion in this article. It just seems a bit to, I dunno, *lowbrow* for this article maybe. Let's talk about this. Thanks, Rahzel 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Who said Barack is a Muslim? He isn't, and never has been, so the statement that he is the first Muslim Senator is wrong. He identifies himself as a Christian. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/
Does anyone else see a problem with this sentence?
Why does the name of the law firm need to be mentioned? People are interested in how the two met, not in the name of the firm. If that is important put in somewhere else. Just my opinion. Thanks. Steve Dufour 02:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it is not relevant information to the reader. If the reader wishes to know what law firm they worked at, it may be researched further.
Nuclearj
20:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody nominated Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. to be merged into this article .The discussion on the merge links here.-- Sefringle 04:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems for now that everything mentioned in these articles is already mentioned within this article. If you want to merge them, I suggest nominating them for an Afd.-- Sefringle 00:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Myspace / Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake / Obama says he was unaware of stocks in trust fund
http://www.suntimes.com/news/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0703080154mar08,0,5354218.story
Barack's disclosure of actions surrounding these events circumvents any foul play. These accusations have been dismissed largely for the most part, they are simply speculation. Media organization have already taken notice of this with strict scrutiny.
Nuclearj
20:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Still, shouldnt it be mentioned?? Just coz someone dislosed soemthing doesnt mean it wasnt a controversy?? Peterpressurepeterp
His disclosure effectively ended the controversy. The relevence of this so-called controversy is small compared to that of an ecyclopedia article. It is more suited for a bibliography Michiganw12 02:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Some claim that Giuliani knew all along that his first wife Regina Peruggi was his second cousin (Peruggi was the daughter of Giuliani's father's cousin[citation needed]) No citation, no names of who, I mean c'mon peopel this is horrible... -- Peterpressure 20:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The media is all over this, he had MySpace yank down a fan site with 160,000 friends to have it himself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.205.32.93 ( talk) 13:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC).
I saw the story in the newspaper yesterday and again today. One sentence thing really sums it up. "The dispute hightlights a balancing act for the presidential candidates, who are trying to harness the energy and enthusiasm of online activists while trying to maintain some control over the candidates' image" WSJ May 3, 2007 p. A7. The same article said the guy asked for $39,000, not $50,000. Feddhicks 20:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Barack Obama has been cited consistently of having African and European ancestry. I feel that the label "the 5th African American senator" should be replaced with "5th Senator with African American heritage". The term "with" is more accurate than "of" African American heritage. I propose the following revision:
The U.S. Senate Historical Office lists him as only the fifth Senator with African American heritage in U.S. history and the only Senator with African American heritage currently serving in the U.S. Senate. [1] Nuclearj 22:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that his racial/ethnic description should be factual, rather that a popular catagorization. The lanuage can be made clear and concise to do this, without a description of his family tree. Michiganw12 02:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
*Upon researching he considers himself to be African American and keeping within Wikipedia policy of living biographies and to avoid smear it is deemed adequate to leave it as such. This is my original error creating this discussion, though I am new and am surprised that nobody mentioned this information at the onset of discussion.
Nuclearj
03:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
this blog post states that after being a lecturer at the university of chicago, he became a full professor (i don't know for how long) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnjosephbachir ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
Is it appropriate to list him in this category if he has not explicitly stated having been an atheist/agnostic in his earlier years? Doubting God or questioning God doesn't automatically make one an atheist. Italiavivi 20:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Please leave Obama's infobox as is. They current method is the unform method used on other senator's aticles. The infoboxes allow for uniform representation of information of similar items. Obama is no different from any other senator and as such his aricle should be treated the same. Rougher07 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmm.. In the last 2 days, there have been 50 edits. 2 of them have been productive, 1 by Windyjarhead [26] and one by OrphanBot [27]. Thoughts on semi-protecting this article again? -- Bobblehead (rants) 23:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
See http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp, among many others. The article currently states in the opening paragraph that he is Muslim. This is incorrect. This has also been mentioned once already on this page, and has been ignored. 208.120.16.139 05:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
ABC news said the Rezko deal is INFAMOUS: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/05/obama_looks_to_.html Time to put it in the article! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk) 01:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
Our policy regarding non-free content indicates that on the image description page of non-free content, the source and, if different, the copyright owner must be clearly identified. The copyright owner of the photograph is not identified and, as such, I have tagged the image with {{ no copyright holder}}. The image is a candidate for speedy deletion per the fourth criterion.
I would like to suggest that the situation may be resolved amicably by attempting to contact Barack Obama via his campaign manager or Senate secretary. If he is the copyright owner of an image of his father, he may be willing to license a free image of his father under the GFDL, and that option should definitely be first in correspondence with his staff. -- Iamunknown 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Obama's Basketball Years Should we find a place for this info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.121.195 ( talk) 02:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
I believe this should be included into personal life with the theme "youth" Nuclearj 20:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to include a comment indicating Obama's Irish heritage (See here. ) and add him to the list of "Irish-American politicians." Any suggestions as to what would be appropriate? Windyjarhead 23:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I support this measure, given that it is completely factual and Obama is listed as an African-American politician despite being only 50% of African heritage. The listing is of equal bearing. Nuclearj 00:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this additional catagorization. There seems to be no grand argument against it, move to proceed? Michiganw12 02:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
*Note Barack cites himself as African-American, in accordance with Wikipedia policy of living biographies it is adequate to leave it as such, otherwise it would be subject to smear scrutiny on his behalf. However, his Irish ancestry is becoming evident from that article, and could be included with information about his parents Nuclearj 03:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Tvoz, you are destroying you argument by saying that his ancestors are distant. His mother very well may qualify as an Irish-american. The point is that he has referred to himself as an African-American and attends a largely African-American religious congregation and never has otherwised labeled himself. His irish ancestry shoudl be included, but not as a label. Nuclearj 05:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I never said detailed, it can be simply stated in 5 words or less. Mother of traceable Irish-American heritage, etc. If the reader wants further information, he/she could research further that is what the goal of the article should be. Apparently this is just being discovered, so more information should become available as time goes one. I don't understand what the fear is about inserting a small tidbit about his mother. Nuclearj 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no agenda here, I don't dispute his "African-ness" or "black-ness." I simply assert his "Irish-ness." Most Americans I know are of multiple ethnicities/heritages. And for the record, it was JFK's great-grandfather that was from Ireland. Windyjarhead 07:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Windyjarhead, then what exactly do you propose? Adding a label to his ethnicity? Let's get the facts straight, he is labeled African-American, because that is the label he recognizes and chooses to associate with. His mother's Irish heritage is only applicable regarding herself. Nuclearj 14:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, I don't follow the logic, how is this "about his mother and not directly about Barack"? We're talking about direct, linear, biological descent, which, while through his mother, is very much directly about Barack. It's his ancestry. Windyjarhead 01:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing the ongoing discussion regarding Senator Barack Obama's categorization as an "Irish American Politician," I have found that eight registered Wikipedians and one unregistered IP contributor have offered opinions. Of those, five have expressed support for the categorization, two have expressed opposition and one was unsure. This discussion has been open for a period of seven days.
Support | Oppose | Unsure |
---|---|---|
Windyjarhead | MikeURL | MrBlondNYC |
Nuclearj | Tvoz | |
Steve Dufour | Italiavivi | |
Michiganw12 | ||
Gloriamarie |
I therefore conclude that the Wikipedia community consents to Obama's categorization as an Irish American Politician, albeit with some hesitation. I will add the category to the article, and I ask that no user remove it without the courtesy of reading and contributing to this discussion. Windyjarhead 16:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 15:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
On many articles with semi-protection, instead of having the tag splayed across the top of the article (not really what a first-time visitor to Wikipedia, looking for information really needs to see), we only have to see the little icon in the upper righthand corner. For example, look at the article, George W. Bush? It really improves the professional appearance of the article, and serves the same purpose. Can we not just have the same thing here? Unschool 02:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Barack Obama is in third place according to this poll [29]
Putting aside the question of whether Rezko should be discussed in this article, certainly this addition violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight. · jersyko talk 16:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Obama’s 17 year friendship and business dealings with Tony Rezko, an Illinois restaurant and real estate developer came under scrutiny after Rezko's indictment on charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud. [2] This scrutiny has centered on two real estate deals [3] involving Obama's South Side home and campaign contributions made to Obama’s state senate campaign and US senate campaign. [4] [5] Obama responded to the scrutiny by saying, “I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards. During the 10 years I have been in public office, I believe I have met those standards and I know that is what people expect of me. I have also understood the importance of appearances. With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and aboveboard” [6]
Good work, Mbc362. Clear and concise. I will support this inclusion in Cultural and political image section. Nuclearj 18:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I would also agree that this is better than completely disregarding the material in its entirety. I guarantee this will become an issue in the primary. Hempbilly 18:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Things always change with time. I remind you that even though you have edited the article, several individuals monitoring the article have yet to provide their input. Nuclearj 18:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this Obama quote: "One of the perils of public life is that you end up being responsible for, or you're held responsible for, associations that you didn't necessarily know were a problem". [30] johnpseudo 19:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, since they're both participating in this discussion, I want to note that I strongly suspect that Nuclearj and Hempbilly are sockpuppets of a banned user. If that is the case, if confirmed, I will remove all of their comments from this discussion per WP:BAN. Thanks. · jersyko talk 19:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no affiliation with with Hempbilly, banned user, etc. I am located in an apartment complex and university with a shared IP, look at my most recently created article. I am not a gimmick. Nuclearj 21:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Since this whole Rezko section is rather convoluted in the various ongoing discussions, many of which are unrelated to the content and I'm trying to avoid the appearance of replying to an unrelated comment by making a new subsection. Anyways, Mdc362's proposal is a definite improvement over the excessively long addition by Hempbilly, but still seems a bit too detailed for what (so far) is just a poor choice in friends. At this point there hasn't been any evidence of Obama exchanging political favors for Rezko's campaign contributions (which is a key point in the Abramoff scandal) or receiving any special treatment in the real estate deals (unlike Duke Cunningham). I don't have time for further thoughts right now, just wanted to at least do a partial reply to the content now that the RFCU is completed. -- Bobblehead (rants) 18:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
First off, my apologies for taking so long to reply. On to business now. I was trying to compare Obama's article to other politicians in general and used Frists' as an example, sorry for not being clear in my reasoning (and to anyone who thinks that Frists' article includes non-noteworthy controversies, I implore you to discuss it on that talk page-I brought the subject up myself and was quickly shot down). Perhaps a new proposal is in order:
Obama’s friendship and business dealings with Tony Rezko, an Illinois restaurant and real estate developer indicted on charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud, [7] came under scrutiny for two real estate deals [8] and contributions made to Obama’s state and US senate campaigns and federal fund. [9] [10] No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama responded to the scrutiny by saying, “I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards...I am confident that everything was handled ethically and aboveboard,” and went on to say that his campaign would divest the federal donation. [11]
would this satisfy everyone?-- Mbc 362 02:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a section about his book being translated into other languages and a picture. Yet nothing about Rezko. The smart reader is going to think that this article is lopsided.
About mbc's edit, the smart reader may conclude that the edit (though well intentioned) seems to sound like an Obama deposition denying involvement. Why not just say what happened which actually makes Obama look like a good guy because he admits that everything was legal even though the whole deal doesn't look good in the papers. Why not....
......(mbc's edit with new sentence at the end)...Although no laws are alleged to have been broken, Obama said that "There's no doubt that this was a mistake on my part. 'Boneheaded' would be accurate," Obama said in a telephone interview Friday. "There's no doubt I should have seen some red flags in terms of me purchasing a piece of property from him." (from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600729.html)
If too long, you could cut out the phrase about boneheaded. Chergles 01:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
69.149.249.41 and I seem to disagree about whether or not people in Obama's life should be identified as Muslims. I think this is unnecessary (it's not common practice to tag every name in an article with that person's religious description). I'm not so dedicated to this that I'm going to keep pushing it from my angle, but does anyone else have opinions on this? CSWarren 22:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"Lieberman was born in Stamford, Connecticut, to Henry Lieberman, the son of Jewish immigrants from Poland, and Marcia Manger, of Austrian Jewish background. The Liebermans owned the Hamilton Liquor Store, which the couple operated until Henry Lieberman's retirement in 1977.[3] Along with Joseph the couple had two daughters, Rietta Miller and Ellen Lieberman. Joe Lieberman attended Stamford High School and was elected president of his senior class in 1960.[4] In the fall of 1963, Lieberman traveled to Mississippi for several weeks, helping African-Americans register to vote.[5]"
Treat them the same way! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk • contribs)
I MAKE A GOOD POINT SO YOU IGNORE IT COMPLETELY
I'm Budhism Javanese, so You can see. Not all indonesian is Muslim, and people dhuld change their view that Indonesia=muslim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk • contribs)
Retain - In response to the request for comment: The religion of some of his family members is relevant to the extent that a) it could influence his point of view (negatively or positively), b) it could influence the opinions of voters (negatively or positively), c) it may have a bearing on his political choices. To wit: If he is elected president surely White House caterers would want to know that certain family members would prefer their food Halal.
Sorry to jump back into the conversation abruptly, but as I've already said, using one Wikipedia article (or a string of a few articles) to justify inclusion of something in another article or articles without reference to policy or guidelines is a dangerous proposition. We need to get back to talking about this in terms of relevance and editorial judgment and ask which guidelines apply. · jersyko talk 13:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Keep the part on religious identification. It only makes sense to mention it because parents' religion inevitably impacts their children in some way. Not mentioning this would hinder the article as biography. Isn't the point of an encyclopedia to be informative? I can't see any good arguments for not including it. -- notJackhorkheimer ( talk / contribs) 16:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 21:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The third para is incorrect, since the latest polls show H Clinton widening her lead. Please correct this lest the article slip into POV territory. Decoratrix 14:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The category indicating that the subject is a former atheist/agnostic has been removed. I believe that the inclusion of that category is based upon statements the subject himself may have made in his autobiography. If anyone can point to any specific information from that book, or any other reliable primary source, (specifically not including book reviews and the like) which indicates that the subject was at any time something that could be described as non-Christian, or clearly states that he "converted" to Christianity, then I believe the category might be able to be replaced. John Carter 14:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Why cover up and hide Rezko affair. Even Obama doesn't cover up and confesses what really happened (what he did was not a crime). Why cover it up here and hide it in the fine print? Whatever the intent, the product is bad (cover up). The discussion has also been removed here to. I think everyone agreed to the language but not the cover up into fine print UTAFA 01:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
REQUEST FOR COMMENT This is a dispute about whether to report a controversy (much reported in the news) about a Rezko-Obama land deal in fine print in the references or out in the open in the article. There is also a dispute on whether to place a comment Obama honestly says that the deal was legal but that he regrets doing it.
This issue is all over the papers, especially in Chicago.
Some people here want to have a skimpy sentence and have it hidden in fine print in the footnote section.
I think the fair thing to do is to have in the main text but explain that Obama says he’s a “bonehead” for doing it. That is the honest thing to do (not hide it) and the honest thing for Obama to have said.
Other politicians don’t have the same wisdom as Obama. For example, Clinton could have said Yeah, I had some inappropriate contact with Monica but I regret it and have discussed it with my wife instead of denying it and then found to be a liar. Bush could have said Yeah, Saddam is evil and I will do everything I can to get rid of him, even an invasion instead of making up a WMD excuse. So a Rezko explanation is better than trying to hide it and make some people think there is something to hide. UTAFA 02:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It doesnt bother me in the slightest if Barack is or isnt categorised as Irish American but looking here it seems that per WP:CONSENSUS that there is a consensus to include it (and more importantly it is backed up with information from some of the most reliable sources).-- Vintagekits 22:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think I'm ready to re-read the Spoken Word version of the article at this time. The content of the article has changed substantially since I last read it a few months ago, and a lot has changed in Obama's career as well since that time. So, I'm shooting for some time in the next few days (perhaps Thursday morning), that should give us time to make sure that the article is nice and clean for the new reading. Also, any tips or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Rahzel 00:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason this article is a complete valentine to Obama? Not one critical word in the whole article. You may want to discuss the fact many people feel he is too inexperienced to be president, the fact he got a sweet land deal for his house from a prominent Chicago political advisor, or the fact he claims to be against the Iraq war despite voting the Bush party line on this since being elected to the Senate. Thanks, Amber Lee, 15, June 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.125.199 ( talk • contribs)
Okay, I'm new here, and I don't really know how to edit and stuff yet. But if anyone wants to fix it. in the "Early life and career" section, it says "he died in a auto accident" and this should read "he died in an auto accident". Thanks! Username 07023 10:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Other editors have objected to polling summaries in the lead, citing a variety of reasons (POV concerns, so-called "recentism," polls which show Obama tied with or ahead of Clinton). Given the most recent USA Today/Gallup poll showing Obama ahead of Clinton (1% and within the MoE), I think we should discuss how to handle this sentence (if it need stay in the lead at all). For the sake of the article's stability, I would advocate not mentioning polling in the lead. Italiavivi 00:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 09:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This picture looks horrendous, where is the original image? (the pic of him standing with the capitol background) Wooyi Talk to me? 18:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule
--
Robapalooza
21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this AP story [35] worthy of inclusion, or will his link to Tony Rezko be suppressed further to keep his squeaky clean image? Manic Hispanic 01:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The Obama wikipedia article is highly POV and there is no basis for eliminating talk that is adverse to Obama. Unless this wikipedia article becomes more balanced it is subject to POV tagging. Decoratrix 14:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This story is only being published because it sells newspapers. The entire issue is absent any real scandal or controversy and is non-notable. johnpseudo 16:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
.
Ok whatevers, but do not censer my comments. Wikipedia is not censored! Manic Hispanic 01:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
from the "Obama madrassa myth debunked" link into the actual text of footnote 14. Many people won't go into all the links, and many others need a "see Jane run" simplicity. Lenngray 16:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I consider a new paragraph on the UCC to be undue weight in Sen. Obama's article. It is already covered adequately. Italiavivi 20:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Since I've reverted MPS ( talk · contribs)'s additions twice now, what is everyone's opinion on the additions?
I'm of the opinion that Obama's religion is adequately covered in the article and that MPS's additions are a little excessive and are not overly notable in the general scheme of things. Particularly in regards to the amount of space that the additions take up in the article. -- Bobblehead (rants) 20:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Regardless of the Obama campaign saying it is not a campaign stop it is being viewed as one. The AP story you linked to (both the IHT and LATimes links are the same AP story) frame his speech in that context. Unfortunately, it's one of the downsides of being on the campaign, every public speech is framed in the context of the campaign regardless of the candidate claiming it is or not. The category would probably be a good idea as there are a number of articles related to Obama and a category bundling together would be rather convenient. As far as your idea for the section on the political views article. It would probably be a good idea to just include his religious beliefs in the applicable political view. So his religious belief on same sex marriage could be included in the same sex marriage section, etc. But then, you could give it a whirl and see what happens.;) -- Bobblehead (rants) 22:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's a whack at the navigation box for Barack Obama related articles. Feel free to add/remove articles from the template as you see fit. -- Bobblehead (rants) 18:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
| |
People | |
Michelle Obama | |
Books authored | |
Dreams from My Father | The Audacity of Hope | |
Political activities | |
Political positions of Barack Obama | Illinois United States Senate election, 2004 | Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 | |
US Senate committee assignments | |
Foreign Relations Committee | Veterans' Affairs | Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions | Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs | |
Related topics | |
United States Senate | 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries | Democratic Party |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story
Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."
Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times
"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007
Obama's statements in this article and in several public forums contradict what these sources say and that should be noted in the article. If the Obama supporters don't think there is anything wrong with having been registered as a Muslim, they should have no problem with this fact being in the article and its NPOV becaue having been is Muslim is not a bad thing, but the facts are the facts.
I hope we can dicuss this civilly and hopefully find a sentence that represents accurately this issue and that everyone can agree on. But consistently undoing my attempts is not the way to accomplish this and violates wikipedia's 3 undo edit rule. Rebyid 00:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Are my quotes from the article not accurate? Are you saying he was NOT registered as a Muslim in both of his elementary schools?! This went uncontradicted in the article. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Rebyid (
talk •
contribs).
1. Interesting. You are conceding that Obama's father was a Muslim. You will have to take that up with the others on this talk page who insist that he was an atheist. See Discussion on Origin of Obama's first name above.
2. It also should be noted that under Muslim law, religion passes paternally, so if Obama's father was Muslim that means he was born a Muslim. Rebyid 22:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
It's good to be back. Rebyid 23:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. </two cents> Fifty7 00:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is it that I added something to this article about Barack Obama's opposition to a bill protecting infant victims of botched abortions and it was deleted by another user MINUTES later? Can somebody explain why CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of Barack Obama is deleted with no explanation? Also, there is NOTHING negative about him in the whole article. Compare that to any article about a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate and you will see what I mean. But for now, I will re-add the article from world net daily and hope that none of the censors (obama supporters/staffers) don't delete for fear it will take away from the positiveness of this fluff piece.
Has anyone else noticed how any mention of anything controversial regarding Obama does not survive in this article. It appears to be a tool for the Obama '08 campaign and they are stomping out all opposition in fascistic style. Can someone please report what's been going on here to the wikipedia administrators.
Does anyone else here smell a rat? The lightning speed with which any edit that put Obama in a bad light by so many users is downright frightening. The pro-Obama editors seem to all be vertible experts in wikipedia policy and regular folk are dicredited relentlessly undone and pushed aside even when their edits offer factual and sourced information. When one pro-Obama user has undone an edit 3 times, another one pops up MINUTES later to to do the fourth ensuring that none of them will violate the 3 unedit rules. In an election cycle, it is scary that this sort of control of information could take place.
The sheer SPEED of removal of these edits points to the fact that there must be a staff of editors paid to moniter this page. How else could so many people be watching this article at the same time all with the same agenda? It is high time we report the behavior on this page to Wikipedia:Resolving disputes disputes for an investigation. Rebyid 16:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
If you guys are not being paid to be on this page all day, then how can you afford to do it? Are you all independently wealthy and have nothing better to do? I find that hard to beleive. Most people edit articles in their SPARE TIME, not ALL THE TIME. So depite you're sarcasm I still think it's suspicious and should be investigated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.125.108.189 ( talk • contribs).
Okay, how about we discuss whether the segment below should be included in the article rather than adding and reverting it without any real discussion. -- Bobblehead 03:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. However, this can be construed as a “no” vote as a vote in the affirmative is required to pass legislation in Illinois State Senate.
[1]
[2]
[3]
|
” |
The Nathan Gonzalez blog post is not a reliable source. Consensus in past Talk discussion is clear on the "present" issue, and describing "present" votes as "against" votes is decidedly POV-pushing. Abortion advocacy is already covered (from better sources) in the article. Italiavivi 03:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
(starting back on the margin) Italiavivi, I generally agree with you. However, I think the one italicized sentence above (my rewriting of the original section), with only the citation from The Hill, might be relevant at the end of the political advocacy section. It clarifies why those people were mad at Obama. Dce7 04:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
We need to understand that he has been criticized from both sides about the "present" votes. Please note that the footnote (122 presently) already points to an article (page 3 of that article) that talks about the criticism from a pro-choice rival for the nomination regarding the "present" votes. So the paragraphs as added were misleading and extremely POV. Since the criticism from the pro-choice side is already discussed in note 122, I added a line and the reference from The HIll to that note to indicate the criticism from the anti-abortion groups about those "present" votes. There is now balance, and links to articles that more fully explain the two sets of criticism. More than that, I think, is unwarranted, and would be POV-pushing again. Tvoz | talk 05:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
This seems more neutral. Adding a sentence saying that he recieved a 100% rating from NARAL seems hardly a way to thouroughly cover this issue. Maybe we should add how strange it is that a 100% NARAL ratee only felt strong enough to vote "present" on this bill?
"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been highly supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he did not mention how he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no,” and how giving medical attention to babies who were already born as the result of abortion abortions, as the bills required, "overturned" any existing laws."
-- Pic82101 8:45, 8 April 2007 (EST)
What do you want Tvoz, 500 links??? You just can't stand criticism and Obama's failure to explain his actions can you? I don't like him and I don't hate him but this is a BIG issue considering that he's running for PRESIDENT which requires an enormous decision making capability that he clearly lacked on many issues including this, when he was in the Illinois Senate. Voting "present" is a sign a politician can't make up his mind or fears the political consequences of casting a straight vote. Just because criticism of him disagrees with YOU it doesn't mean it's not neutral. And stop claiming the Born Alive controversy is something that doesn't mean anything. I including his response to the issue and showed the errors in it. I am not pushing any POV but you seem to be doing a bit of it with your constant censoring and disagreeable attitude towards anybody who wants to bring some balance to this article. And where did you include the "present" controversy in the article and where are both pov? If I missed it, please quote me where I diverged from the facts in my paragraph and I will be more than happy to drop the whole matter. Hmmm...
How am I pushing MY pov here? Did I make all these facts up? No. Am I offending your support of Barack Obama? Maybe. But we're in a free wiki where facts matter more than opinions. But anything critical of Obama that is true is fanatically censored by you who seem to be more concerned about pushing your povs than having a true and balanced article? If this was any other politician I can assure that the criticism section would be a whole lot bigger. Let's be factual, not opinionated.
-- Pic82101 11:54, 8 April 2007 (EST)
O.k., this is the talk page. Let's discuss this paragraph.
"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no." He also failed to mention how giving medical attention to babies who were already born "overturned" any existing laws."
Pic82101 00:21, 8 April 2007 (EST)
This article is over 100k long, which seems to indicate that the creation of a number of child articles are in order here. The Senate career section is almost 30k in length on it's own and could be easily copied and pasted into a
Senate career of Barack Obama article and then expanded/reformatted into a quality article. I could even see the senate campaign moved off to the career article with a short6 summary of the sections left here hitting the high points of the election and his senate career. The cultural and political image section is also ripe for being made into a summary for a child article. The political advocacy section and the presidential election section seem to be excessively long for summaries of another article. I know there isn't a chance in heck of getting this article down to 32k without leaving a pile of
drek behind, but it should be doable to reduce the length down to a more acceptable and quality 60k with a proper application of
WP:SS. What does everyone else think? --
Bobblehead
02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Consider
KMCtoday 01:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
From User_talk:Italiavivi:
I saw your edit on Obama reverting mine. Actually, the vast majority of my edit is just to add "citation needed" when things are not referenced and very little editing of the actual text. The Obama article is the type that should be very well referenced because of the nature of it. Whoever wrote the original police part is very biased because that's not what the reference said at all. He may have got the FOP endorsement but he got a very chilly reception at ANOTHER police association meeting (which is what the reference was about). There, the audience applauded only once, which shows how little support he has there. So here we have a sentence in the wikipedia article which is clearly POV hence my correction. KMCtoday 03:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Editing was initially just to add citations when big error was noted. However, you made corrections that were along the same line of thought in trying to more accurately have this article reflect what the citation was actually saying. KMCtoday 20:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
From User_talk:Italiavivi:
You (Italiavivi) mention concensus. There is agreement by FCYTravis. However, the point is NPOV, not necessarily concensus if consensus is for inaccurate reporting. Hitler had concensus. He won the vote fair and square. Even Bush won the election. I am for accountability, i.e. citing material and citing it accurately. This is for not only Obama, but also Romney. I am not picking on Obama specifically. I have raised citation issues for Bush, too. KMCtoday 01:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
After a bit of spamming by an overeager congressional worker, I noticed that some members were not noted as such. Would it be alright to add to the "Senate career" section, after the ending sentence beginning "He is a member of the following Senate committees:" a note saying ", and also a member of the Congressional Black Caucus." ? Shenme 23:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. While I am inclined to support Obama (we're both left-handed smokers), my BS detector lights up a little after reading this. In the Political Image section it describes him as being neither lefty nor righty. He's been against the Iraq war since day one (a position typically reserved for the extremes on both sides - like Ron Paul or Denis Kucinich), is pro-choice and advocates universal healthcare. In 2007 America this combination puts you on the left. Not neccessarily far from the center, but absolutely NOT on the right half of the scale. If there are some lesser known positions that move him to the right, you really ought to mention them. I'd have to unfortunately agree with the swiftboaters above who speculate that this page has been 'caputured' by members of his campaign. 24.98.251.37 23:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know just why he is so popular in the democratic party. How does someone so young and with so little experience get seen as such a visionary? Everything I have read about his politics leads me believe he is moderate democrat ideologically close to both Clintons. I do not get any notion that he is suggesting anything particularly new. Yet there is all the buz around him versus any other Democratic Senator? If anyone has some ideas about this I would very much like to see them discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Custodiet ipsos custodes ( talk • contribs).
Then whose place is it to speculate???? Hello? The point of the discussion page is go places and talk about things that wont make it on the main page. (Again I am not advocating putting original research on the main page.) One could though explain with sources his popularity. If it can be done this way it is essential to an article about him. In the future when people look back at him in history they will be wondering why he was so popular. This is a very important point. History is not just dry facts but an explanation of them to provide coherence to those facts. If this is not the place where is the place??? Custodiet ipsos custodes 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Hellfire made an edit in September. Essentially, it says that Obama got the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police and a citation is given. However, looking at that citation [2], the Chicago Tribune article actually said " 'I don't see him as pro-law enforcement," said Wheaton police Chief Mark Field. "I could spend hours with this man talking about his voting record. It is very anti-public safety." The crowd of 60 police officials applauded only once during Obama's 20-minute remarks. The whole article is about the chilly reception that Obama got.
This does not seem like very balanced reporting by Hellfire. It seems like there is a POV being pushed, i.e. trying to convince the reader that Obama has police support.
It's really very hard for me to see that this is other than biased editing by Hellfire. Furthermore, it wasn't just an honest mistake in editing because Hellfire recently reverted Italiavivi's correction accurately summarizing the citation back to the biased, one sided summary of the Chicago Tribune citation. I was just editing to make sure edits have citations when I found this irregularity. (For now, I'm just checking facts on this and other news articles, not really writing much). Let's not pick on Hellfire for now but the question remains, it's really hard to see why the long standing wording isn't pushing a POV by being biased editing. KMCtoday 20:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
What seems like the real story is that Obama did get the FOP endorsement but there's significant dislike of his policies. That's why Obama got the icy reception at his talk. To be applauded only once is worse than the chilly reception that Bush got at the NAACP where they applauded a few times. When the sentence was placed before, it essentially said "FOP supports Obama" and gave the citation. Anyone reading the citation can see that it's deceptive (whether intentional or not). A balanced viewpoint would be "some support, but some police oppose".
An example of being one sided like the above would be to say "Hillary supports the war" citing a newspaper article which might have said "Hillary supported the war by voting for such and such bill. Now she is for a planned, stage withdrawal." FCYTravis' revision just corrects it. It does not say Obama is wrong. KMCtoday 01:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little confused as to the nature of this latest round of edit warring. The primary purpose of the source used to support Obama's endorsement is to report the subdued response he got from Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police so while the wording proposed by FCYTravis and KMCtoday might be a little too much POV, not mentioning the subdued reaction at all fails to provide all points of view. Can't have one and not the other, so either remove his endorsement by the Fraternal Order of Police or give the subdued reaction from IACP equal time in a less POV manner.-- Bobblehead 04:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel Barak's picture is from a neutral point of view. This looks like an image from the campaign for his presidency. Before you judge compare it to the image for Tom Delay. Don't get me wrong, I think Delay's is fair, the images IMHO should be more raw photos, not photo ops or in a good light. -- User:kibbled_bits 11:17 PM, 9 April 2007
It seems to be here. Myspace advertised it in the "Cool New People" section. Any way or reason to fit it in his wiki article? -- Ubiq 01:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Using the words controversy and scrutiny are meaningless-- what did he do that was terrible? Nothing.
Smearing another human being requires very little intelligence. People who love to do it the most tend to be of low character themselves.
128.138.230.150 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.
If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.
I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.
"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [3]
Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.
In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [5]
Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.
Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [6]
As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [7]
Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [8], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [9] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [10] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [11] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [12]
Sen. Obama is a smoker [13], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [14]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [15] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [16] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [17]
Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [18] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.
See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [19] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [20] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [21], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [22]
Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [23], each owned two slaves.
During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [24]
In regards to the murders at Virginia Tech he said: "There's also another kind of violence that we're going to have to think about. It's not necessarily the physical violence, but the violence that we perpetrate on each other in other ways," he said, and goes on to catalogue other forms of "violence."
There's the 'verbal violence' of Imus.
There's "the violence of men and women who have worked all their lives and suddenly have the rug pulled out from under them because their job is moved to another country."
There's "the violence of children whose voices are not heard in communities that are ignored,""there's a lot of different forms of violence in our society, and so much of it is rooted in our incapacity to recognize ourselves in each other."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070419/cm_rcp/obama_not_ready_for_prime_time
This may be one of the biggest blunders yet in the primaries. If this article has any trace of NPOV left it should be mentioned. It may very well cost him the election. 71.183.135.248 01:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Now bring on all the Obama fans who run this page to predictibly tell me why this is not notable. C'mon Tvoz, Italiativiti, BobbleHead. You guys can figure out ways anything is not notable when it hurts your candidate. So let's hear it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.183.135.248 ( talk • contribs).
What makes this article be labeled "random"? Search and ye shall find several other articles. But I'll be darned if there aren't other opinion peices cited in this article. I think the last cite if from the Huffington Post if I'm not mistaken. But then again... that was flattering so it get's in. This is not so it won't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.135.248 ( talk • contribs)
@the person who said it would cost him the elections: i think not, his numbers have gone up in the latest polls, he is equal with Hilary now so this isn't particularly notable. We shouldn't put it comments he has made that don't affect anyone's opinion in him. And i don't think it is a good source.
The picture we have at the top of the page is the third picture in the last three days. I don't have any particular preference, but it would be a good idea to keep it relatively stable. Thoughts? — mrmaroon25 ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to Sen. Obama's official Senate portrait, standing in front of the Capitol? This is the image that should be used. Italiavivi 22:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I have some substantive edits I'd like to make involving Obama staffers and his campaign that aren't covered in the article, but its on protection. What's the timeline for taking it off protection? I'm also a new user - is that the problem? thanks Nitroleviathan 15:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This entire wikipedia article seems like it was written by the candidate himself...or possibly a Republican wishing to stamp out Hillary Clinton. Clinton supporters, Obama is just Republican ploy to stop Clinton at whatever cost... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.134.139 ( talk • contribs) 03:17, 29 April 2007
This is very likely because when some slightly less than positive (but not negative) info is placed, it immediately gets reverted by a very loyal band of 3-4 users who only allow the most positive info. This is proof of POV.
Lawman8
23:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
In archive 8, there is an interesting discussion about Obama's police endorsement. The current language may give the reader the impression that he has police support but the real story is that he possibly is OPPOSED by a majority of police. See the very informative article that's listed as a footnote (reference). If so, the current version (before my edit \) is POV, contrary to wikipedia policy. I hope Obama supporters don't just plain revert it but abide by NPOV.
Lawman8
18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not say that the only person would reverts to pro-Obama language is an Obama supporter. However, an Obama supporter is likely to do so. I also see that there was no edit war but rather those favoring POV pro-Obama language kicked out KCtoday. The communist party does that. They send people with NPOV and opposite views to the labor camp. This is not to say that Obama editors here are communist but they MAY behave in the same way. Let's try to find compromise language!
Lawman8
17:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
::I was reading the content of KMCtoday's comments, not the mechanics of the ban. Some of the comments make sense. Hitler drank water. However, water is not bad just because Hitler drank it.
Lawman8
18:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Tvoz, you say to discuss things on talk page. Yet, you just revert and don't add talk page comments. I have made yet another attempt for compromise language, not simply reverting. This is discussion, not edit warring. Edit warring is when you just revert.
Lawman8
20:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
It is only disruptive if one considers that trying to eliminate NPOV is disruptive. Actually, advocating a POV view is disruptive to the whole wikipedia community, not just this article. The behavior of bobblehead is wrong because he says to talk on the talk page yet reverts without doing so or even offering compromise language.
Lawman8
21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Lawman8 confirmed as another sockpuppet of banned User: dereks1x, again attempting to evade his ban. I struck out his comments. Tvoz | talk 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite understand the 'African-American' thing or hybridised nationality nomenclature very well, but I understand Africa is the content of origin of his fathers side, but there's no mention anywhere in the article of his middle eastern origins? Is this because in the current American socio-political climate there is a dogma around the middle east forming? Or has he personally overlooked this because of such? Jachin 06:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this article needs a link to Barack Obama's MySpace account. It seems legit enough, but I'm just wondering if this is the sort of link that is worthy of inclusion in this article. It just seems a bit to, I dunno, *lowbrow* for this article maybe. Let's talk about this. Thanks, Rahzel 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Who said Barack is a Muslim? He isn't, and never has been, so the statement that he is the first Muslim Senator is wrong. He identifies himself as a Christian. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/
Does anyone else see a problem with this sentence?
Why does the name of the law firm need to be mentioned? People are interested in how the two met, not in the name of the firm. If that is important put in somewhere else. Just my opinion. Thanks. Steve Dufour 02:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it is not relevant information to the reader. If the reader wishes to know what law firm they worked at, it may be researched further.
Nuclearj
20:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody nominated Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. to be merged into this article .The discussion on the merge links here.-- Sefringle 04:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems for now that everything mentioned in these articles is already mentioned within this article. If you want to merge them, I suggest nominating them for an Afd.-- Sefringle 00:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Myspace / Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake / Obama says he was unaware of stocks in trust fund
http://www.suntimes.com/news/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0703080154mar08,0,5354218.story
Barack's disclosure of actions surrounding these events circumvents any foul play. These accusations have been dismissed largely for the most part, they are simply speculation. Media organization have already taken notice of this with strict scrutiny.
Nuclearj
20:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Still, shouldnt it be mentioned?? Just coz someone dislosed soemthing doesnt mean it wasnt a controversy?? Peterpressurepeterp
His disclosure effectively ended the controversy. The relevence of this so-called controversy is small compared to that of an ecyclopedia article. It is more suited for a bibliography Michiganw12 02:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Some claim that Giuliani knew all along that his first wife Regina Peruggi was his second cousin (Peruggi was the daughter of Giuliani's father's cousin[citation needed]) No citation, no names of who, I mean c'mon peopel this is horrible... -- Peterpressure 20:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The media is all over this, he had MySpace yank down a fan site with 160,000 friends to have it himself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.205.32.93 ( talk) 13:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC).
I saw the story in the newspaper yesterday and again today. One sentence thing really sums it up. "The dispute hightlights a balancing act for the presidential candidates, who are trying to harness the energy and enthusiasm of online activists while trying to maintain some control over the candidates' image" WSJ May 3, 2007 p. A7. The same article said the guy asked for $39,000, not $50,000. Feddhicks 20:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Barack Obama has been cited consistently of having African and European ancestry. I feel that the label "the 5th African American senator" should be replaced with "5th Senator with African American heritage". The term "with" is more accurate than "of" African American heritage. I propose the following revision:
The U.S. Senate Historical Office lists him as only the fifth Senator with African American heritage in U.S. history and the only Senator with African American heritage currently serving in the U.S. Senate. [1] Nuclearj 22:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that his racial/ethnic description should be factual, rather that a popular catagorization. The lanuage can be made clear and concise to do this, without a description of his family tree. Michiganw12 02:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
*Upon researching he considers himself to be African American and keeping within Wikipedia policy of living biographies and to avoid smear it is deemed adequate to leave it as such. This is my original error creating this discussion, though I am new and am surprised that nobody mentioned this information at the onset of discussion.
Nuclearj
03:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
this blog post states that after being a lecturer at the university of chicago, he became a full professor (i don't know for how long) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnjosephbachir ( talk • contribs) 16:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
Is it appropriate to list him in this category if he has not explicitly stated having been an atheist/agnostic in his earlier years? Doubting God or questioning God doesn't automatically make one an atheist. Italiavivi 20:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Please leave Obama's infobox as is. They current method is the unform method used on other senator's aticles. The infoboxes allow for uniform representation of information of similar items. Obama is no different from any other senator and as such his aricle should be treated the same. Rougher07 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmm.. In the last 2 days, there have been 50 edits. 2 of them have been productive, 1 by Windyjarhead [26] and one by OrphanBot [27]. Thoughts on semi-protecting this article again? -- Bobblehead (rants) 23:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
See http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp, among many others. The article currently states in the opening paragraph that he is Muslim. This is incorrect. This has also been mentioned once already on this page, and has been ignored. 208.120.16.139 05:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
ABC news said the Rezko deal is INFAMOUS: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/05/obama_looks_to_.html Time to put it in the article! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk) 01:18, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
Our policy regarding non-free content indicates that on the image description page of non-free content, the source and, if different, the copyright owner must be clearly identified. The copyright owner of the photograph is not identified and, as such, I have tagged the image with {{ no copyright holder}}. The image is a candidate for speedy deletion per the fourth criterion.
I would like to suggest that the situation may be resolved amicably by attempting to contact Barack Obama via his campaign manager or Senate secretary. If he is the copyright owner of an image of his father, he may be willing to license a free image of his father under the GFDL, and that option should definitely be first in correspondence with his staff. -- Iamunknown 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Obama's Basketball Years Should we find a place for this info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.121.195 ( talk) 02:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
I believe this should be included into personal life with the theme "youth" Nuclearj 20:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like to include a comment indicating Obama's Irish heritage (See here. ) and add him to the list of "Irish-American politicians." Any suggestions as to what would be appropriate? Windyjarhead 23:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I support this measure, given that it is completely factual and Obama is listed as an African-American politician despite being only 50% of African heritage. The listing is of equal bearing. Nuclearj 00:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this additional catagorization. There seems to be no grand argument against it, move to proceed? Michiganw12 02:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
*Note Barack cites himself as African-American, in accordance with Wikipedia policy of living biographies it is adequate to leave it as such, otherwise it would be subject to smear scrutiny on his behalf. However, his Irish ancestry is becoming evident from that article, and could be included with information about his parents Nuclearj 03:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Tvoz, you are destroying you argument by saying that his ancestors are distant. His mother very well may qualify as an Irish-american. The point is that he has referred to himself as an African-American and attends a largely African-American religious congregation and never has otherwised labeled himself. His irish ancestry shoudl be included, but not as a label. Nuclearj 05:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I never said detailed, it can be simply stated in 5 words or less. Mother of traceable Irish-American heritage, etc. If the reader wants further information, he/she could research further that is what the goal of the article should be. Apparently this is just being discovered, so more information should become available as time goes one. I don't understand what the fear is about inserting a small tidbit about his mother. Nuclearj 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no agenda here, I don't dispute his "African-ness" or "black-ness." I simply assert his "Irish-ness." Most Americans I know are of multiple ethnicities/heritages. And for the record, it was JFK's great-grandfather that was from Ireland. Windyjarhead 07:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Windyjarhead, then what exactly do you propose? Adding a label to his ethnicity? Let's get the facts straight, he is labeled African-American, because that is the label he recognizes and chooses to associate with. His mother's Irish heritage is only applicable regarding herself. Nuclearj 14:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, I don't follow the logic, how is this "about his mother and not directly about Barack"? We're talking about direct, linear, biological descent, which, while through his mother, is very much directly about Barack. It's his ancestry. Windyjarhead 01:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
After reviewing the ongoing discussion regarding Senator Barack Obama's categorization as an "Irish American Politician," I have found that eight registered Wikipedians and one unregistered IP contributor have offered opinions. Of those, five have expressed support for the categorization, two have expressed opposition and one was unsure. This discussion has been open for a period of seven days.
Support | Oppose | Unsure |
---|---|---|
Windyjarhead | MikeURL | MrBlondNYC |
Nuclearj | Tvoz | |
Steve Dufour | Italiavivi | |
Michiganw12 | ||
Gloriamarie |
I therefore conclude that the Wikipedia community consents to Obama's categorization as an Irish American Politician, albeit with some hesitation. I will add the category to the article, and I ask that no user remove it without the courtesy of reading and contributing to this discussion. Windyjarhead 16:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 15:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
On many articles with semi-protection, instead of having the tag splayed across the top of the article (not really what a first-time visitor to Wikipedia, looking for information really needs to see), we only have to see the little icon in the upper righthand corner. For example, look at the article, George W. Bush? It really improves the professional appearance of the article, and serves the same purpose. Can we not just have the same thing here? Unschool 02:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Barack Obama is in third place according to this poll [29]
Putting aside the question of whether Rezko should be discussed in this article, certainly this addition violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight. · jersyko talk 16:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Obama’s 17 year friendship and business dealings with Tony Rezko, an Illinois restaurant and real estate developer came under scrutiny after Rezko's indictment on charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud. [2] This scrutiny has centered on two real estate deals [3] involving Obama's South Side home and campaign contributions made to Obama’s state senate campaign and US senate campaign. [4] [5] Obama responded to the scrutiny by saying, “I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards. During the 10 years I have been in public office, I believe I have met those standards and I know that is what people expect of me. I have also understood the importance of appearances. With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and aboveboard” [6]
Good work, Mbc362. Clear and concise. I will support this inclusion in Cultural and political image section. Nuclearj 18:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I would also agree that this is better than completely disregarding the material in its entirety. I guarantee this will become an issue in the primary. Hempbilly 18:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Things always change with time. I remind you that even though you have edited the article, several individuals monitoring the article have yet to provide their input. Nuclearj 18:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I like this Obama quote: "One of the perils of public life is that you end up being responsible for, or you're held responsible for, associations that you didn't necessarily know were a problem". [30] johnpseudo 19:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, since they're both participating in this discussion, I want to note that I strongly suspect that Nuclearj and Hempbilly are sockpuppets of a banned user. If that is the case, if confirmed, I will remove all of their comments from this discussion per WP:BAN. Thanks. · jersyko talk 19:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no affiliation with with Hempbilly, banned user, etc. I am located in an apartment complex and university with a shared IP, look at my most recently created article. I am not a gimmick. Nuclearj 21:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Since this whole Rezko section is rather convoluted in the various ongoing discussions, many of which are unrelated to the content and I'm trying to avoid the appearance of replying to an unrelated comment by making a new subsection. Anyways, Mdc362's proposal is a definite improvement over the excessively long addition by Hempbilly, but still seems a bit too detailed for what (so far) is just a poor choice in friends. At this point there hasn't been any evidence of Obama exchanging political favors for Rezko's campaign contributions (which is a key point in the Abramoff scandal) or receiving any special treatment in the real estate deals (unlike Duke Cunningham). I don't have time for further thoughts right now, just wanted to at least do a partial reply to the content now that the RFCU is completed. -- Bobblehead (rants) 18:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
First off, my apologies for taking so long to reply. On to business now. I was trying to compare Obama's article to other politicians in general and used Frists' as an example, sorry for not being clear in my reasoning (and to anyone who thinks that Frists' article includes non-noteworthy controversies, I implore you to discuss it on that talk page-I brought the subject up myself and was quickly shot down). Perhaps a new proposal is in order:
Obama’s friendship and business dealings with Tony Rezko, an Illinois restaurant and real estate developer indicted on charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud, [7] came under scrutiny for two real estate deals [8] and contributions made to Obama’s state and US senate campaigns and federal fund. [9] [10] No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama responded to the scrutiny by saying, “I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards...I am confident that everything was handled ethically and aboveboard,” and went on to say that his campaign would divest the federal donation. [11]
would this satisfy everyone?-- Mbc 362 02:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
There is a section about his book being translated into other languages and a picture. Yet nothing about Rezko. The smart reader is going to think that this article is lopsided.
About mbc's edit, the smart reader may conclude that the edit (though well intentioned) seems to sound like an Obama deposition denying involvement. Why not just say what happened which actually makes Obama look like a good guy because he admits that everything was legal even though the whole deal doesn't look good in the papers. Why not....
......(mbc's edit with new sentence at the end)...Although no laws are alleged to have been broken, Obama said that "There's no doubt that this was a mistake on my part. 'Boneheaded' would be accurate," Obama said in a telephone interview Friday. "There's no doubt I should have seen some red flags in terms of me purchasing a piece of property from him." (from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/16/AR2006121600729.html)
If too long, you could cut out the phrase about boneheaded. Chergles 01:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
69.149.249.41 and I seem to disagree about whether or not people in Obama's life should be identified as Muslims. I think this is unnecessary (it's not common practice to tag every name in an article with that person's religious description). I'm not so dedicated to this that I'm going to keep pushing it from my angle, but does anyone else have opinions on this? CSWarren 22:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"Lieberman was born in Stamford, Connecticut, to Henry Lieberman, the son of Jewish immigrants from Poland, and Marcia Manger, of Austrian Jewish background. The Liebermans owned the Hamilton Liquor Store, which the couple operated until Henry Lieberman's retirement in 1977.[3] Along with Joseph the couple had two daughters, Rietta Miller and Ellen Lieberman. Joe Lieberman attended Stamford High School and was elected president of his senior class in 1960.[4] In the fall of 1963, Lieberman traveled to Mississippi for several weeks, helping African-Americans register to vote.[5]"
Treat them the same way! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk • contribs)
I MAKE A GOOD POINT SO YOU IGNORE IT COMPLETELY
I'm Budhism Javanese, so You can see. Not all indonesian is Muslim, and people dhuld change their view that Indonesia=muslim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.149.249.41 ( talk • contribs)
Retain - In response to the request for comment: The religion of some of his family members is relevant to the extent that a) it could influence his point of view (negatively or positively), b) it could influence the opinions of voters (negatively or positively), c) it may have a bearing on his political choices. To wit: If he is elected president surely White House caterers would want to know that certain family members would prefer their food Halal.
Sorry to jump back into the conversation abruptly, but as I've already said, using one Wikipedia article (or a string of a few articles) to justify inclusion of something in another article or articles without reference to policy or guidelines is a dangerous proposition. We need to get back to talking about this in terms of relevance and editorial judgment and ask which guidelines apply. · jersyko talk 13:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Keep the part on religious identification. It only makes sense to mention it because parents' religion inevitably impacts their children in some way. Not mentioning this would hinder the article as biography. Isn't the point of an encyclopedia to be informative? I can't see any good arguments for not including it. -- notJackhorkheimer ( talk / contribs) 16:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 21:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
The third para is incorrect, since the latest polls show H Clinton widening her lead. Please correct this lest the article slip into POV territory. Decoratrix 14:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The category indicating that the subject is a former atheist/agnostic has been removed. I believe that the inclusion of that category is based upon statements the subject himself may have made in his autobiography. If anyone can point to any specific information from that book, or any other reliable primary source, (specifically not including book reviews and the like) which indicates that the subject was at any time something that could be described as non-Christian, or clearly states that he "converted" to Christianity, then I believe the category might be able to be replaced. John Carter 14:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Why cover up and hide Rezko affair. Even Obama doesn't cover up and confesses what really happened (what he did was not a crime). Why cover it up here and hide it in the fine print? Whatever the intent, the product is bad (cover up). The discussion has also been removed here to. I think everyone agreed to the language but not the cover up into fine print UTAFA 01:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
REQUEST FOR COMMENT This is a dispute about whether to report a controversy (much reported in the news) about a Rezko-Obama land deal in fine print in the references or out in the open in the article. There is also a dispute on whether to place a comment Obama honestly says that the deal was legal but that he regrets doing it.
This issue is all over the papers, especially in Chicago.
Some people here want to have a skimpy sentence and have it hidden in fine print in the footnote section.
I think the fair thing to do is to have in the main text but explain that Obama says he’s a “bonehead” for doing it. That is the honest thing to do (not hide it) and the honest thing for Obama to have said.
Other politicians don’t have the same wisdom as Obama. For example, Clinton could have said Yeah, I had some inappropriate contact with Monica but I regret it and have discussed it with my wife instead of denying it and then found to be a liar. Bush could have said Yeah, Saddam is evil and I will do everything I can to get rid of him, even an invasion instead of making up a WMD excuse. So a Rezko explanation is better than trying to hide it and make some people think there is something to hide. UTAFA 02:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It doesnt bother me in the slightest if Barack is or isnt categorised as Irish American but looking here it seems that per WP:CONSENSUS that there is a consensus to include it (and more importantly it is backed up with information from some of the most reliable sources).-- Vintagekits 22:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I think I'm ready to re-read the Spoken Word version of the article at this time. The content of the article has changed substantially since I last read it a few months ago, and a lot has changed in Obama's career as well since that time. So, I'm shooting for some time in the next few days (perhaps Thursday morning), that should give us time to make sure that the article is nice and clean for the new reading. Also, any tips or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Rahzel 00:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there a reason this article is a complete valentine to Obama? Not one critical word in the whole article. You may want to discuss the fact many people feel he is too inexperienced to be president, the fact he got a sweet land deal for his house from a prominent Chicago political advisor, or the fact he claims to be against the Iraq war despite voting the Bush party line on this since being elected to the Senate. Thanks, Amber Lee, 15, June 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.125.199 ( talk • contribs)
Okay, I'm new here, and I don't really know how to edit and stuff yet. But if anyone wants to fix it. in the "Early life and career" section, it says "he died in a auto accident" and this should read "he died in an auto accident". Thanks! Username 07023 10:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Other editors have objected to polling summaries in the lead, citing a variety of reasons (POV concerns, so-called "recentism," polls which show Obama tied with or ahead of Clinton). Given the most recent USA Today/Gallup poll showing Obama ahead of Clinton (1% and within the MoE), I think we should discuss how to handle this sentence (if it need stay in the lead at all). For the sake of the article's stability, I would advocate not mentioning polling in the lead. Italiavivi 00:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 09:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
This picture looks horrendous, where is the original image? (the pic of him standing with the capitol background) Wooyi Talk to me? 18:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added a Pie Chart Showing the Number of Delegates that Clinton, Obama and Edwards Based on Polling Data and DNC's 15% Threshold Rule
--
Robapalooza
21:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this AP story [35] worthy of inclusion, or will his link to Tony Rezko be suppressed further to keep his squeaky clean image? Manic Hispanic 01:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The Obama wikipedia article is highly POV and there is no basis for eliminating talk that is adverse to Obama. Unless this wikipedia article becomes more balanced it is subject to POV tagging. Decoratrix 14:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
This story is only being published because it sells newspapers. The entire issue is absent any real scandal or controversy and is non-notable. johnpseudo 16:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
.
Ok whatevers, but do not censer my comments. Wikipedia is not censored! Manic Hispanic 01:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
from the "Obama madrassa myth debunked" link into the actual text of footnote 14. Many people won't go into all the links, and many others need a "see Jane run" simplicity. Lenngray 16:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I consider a new paragraph on the UCC to be undue weight in Sen. Obama's article. It is already covered adequately. Italiavivi 20:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Since I've reverted MPS ( talk · contribs)'s additions twice now, what is everyone's opinion on the additions?
I'm of the opinion that Obama's religion is adequately covered in the article and that MPS's additions are a little excessive and are not overly notable in the general scheme of things. Particularly in regards to the amount of space that the additions take up in the article. -- Bobblehead (rants) 20:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Regardless of the Obama campaign saying it is not a campaign stop it is being viewed as one. The AP story you linked to (both the IHT and LATimes links are the same AP story) frame his speech in that context. Unfortunately, it's one of the downsides of being on the campaign, every public speech is framed in the context of the campaign regardless of the candidate claiming it is or not. The category would probably be a good idea as there are a number of articles related to Obama and a category bundling together would be rather convenient. As far as your idea for the section on the political views article. It would probably be a good idea to just include his religious beliefs in the applicable political view. So his religious belief on same sex marriage could be included in the same sex marriage section, etc. But then, you could give it a whirl and see what happens.;) -- Bobblehead (rants) 22:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's a whack at the navigation box for Barack Obama related articles. Feel free to add/remove articles from the template as you see fit. -- Bobblehead (rants) 18:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
| |
People | |
Michelle Obama | |
Books authored | |
Dreams from My Father | The Audacity of Hope | |
Political activities | |
Political positions of Barack Obama | Illinois United States Senate election, 2004 | Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 | |
US Senate committee assignments | |
Foreign Relations Committee | Veterans' Affairs | Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions | Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs | |
Related topics | |
United States Senate | 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries | Democratic Party |