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According to this article he wrote for Time:
"In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist that she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. Moreover, as a child I rarely came in contact with those who might offer a substantially different view of faith. My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was 2 years old; in any event, although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition."
His mother exposed him to many different religions when he was young, but didn't raise him with any. His father was an atheist when his parents married, so it is highly unlikely that for the first two years of his life Obama was "Muslim," whatever that would mean. So his Muslim name is only that, a name. Arrow740 22:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Can a child really be considered to be religious anyway? Richard Dawkins discusses this at length. Even if both his parents were praticing Muslims, Christians, Zoroastrians, or whatever, it wouldn't matter, because he was a child and children can't be considered to be of one religion or another since they're too young to make those kinds of personal identity decisions. obama's childhood "religion" shouldn't even be a consideration. What is important, however, is how he was raised to view religion, and how his upbringing (religious or otherwise) informed his current faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.219.0 ( talk • contribs).
Fox news is reporting Obama attended a Madrassa. reference: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245079,00.html
Insight magazine reports his 4 year Madrassa schooling was exposed by Hillary Clinton and other Democratic party opponent researchers. reference: http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Obama_2.htm
Dr. Dale 01:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Dr. Dale
Fact Is - this article skips his education up until 5th grade. What kind of schools did he go to until 5th grade, wasn't his step father originally a muslim? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.211.59.153 ( talk • contribs).
If this is a featured article, I would expect know what are his affiliation and views on religion currently; however, I can NOT seem to gain this information from the article. This is disappointing indeed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.141.119.161 ( talk • contribs).
I have recommended that this article be referred to Featured Article review to be reevaluated because of concerns that it no longer meets the Featured Article criteria and, unless remedied, it should have its Featured Article status revoked. Please see and comment here: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama — ExplorerCDT 23:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Pursuant to the FAR, I ran through all of the references yesterday: it is extremely rare to find an article this well referenced on WP:FAC - never at WP:FAR. It is also rare to find an article that completely conforms to guidelines such as WP:MOS, WP:MSH, WP:GTL, and so on. Kudos to editors here, mainly HailFire, I understand.
I found no unreliable sources, and only one dead link (in Presidential ambitions - pls have a look - I put a verification needed tag on it).
I made the following changes:
I found one thing that should be addressed: there are four specific citations from a book authored by Obama (Dreams something), that had been combined into one named ref. I split them out because page numbers should be provided for each one (along with an ISBN on the ref now listed in References, so we know which edition the page numbers refer to). Can someone pls fill in that information? I left them with p. x.
This article is far superior to what usually comes through FAR: I hope you're all able to keep it that way, and that new editors appreciate the quality of the work relative to the kind of stuff that is getting promoted daily at WP:FAC. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
There has been an unexplained (as far as I've seen, that is) back-and-forth for months about where Obama's father comes from - sometimes rendered as "Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya" sometimes the "Nyangoma" is deleted and then sure enough reinserted a short while later. I have no idea if there is any meaning behind these edits in either direction, but the back-and-forth seems pointless to me - so if anyone knows, can we decide which it should be and leave it as such? I have no information, and therefore no opinion. Tvoz | talk 23:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
According to BBC, his father was born in "Nyangoma Kogalo in Nyanza province". - PoliticalJunkie 22:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The article contains no old pics. Here is a good one for the "early years" section of the article. I don't know how to include it...
http://starbulletin.com/2004/07/25/news/story7.html—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.35.141.146 ( talk • contribs).
Do you think he looks too black in that picture?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.141.146 ( talk • contribs)
I haven't read this article yet, but I did see this in the early part, that left me confused:
But the very next sentence indicates he didn't grow up with his father, his father wasn't even in the same country, so this quote seems to give undue importance to something that he might have barely remembered - can this be resolved? His memories before the age of two aren't meaningful ????
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I ran a prose size check in case this comes up on review - readable prose becomes a concern if it passes 40KB.
(I don't have this page watchlisted, so ping me if you have questions during review, or post to the FAR.) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it keeps changing back and forth from "Junior Senator" to "Junior U.S. Senator". I changed it to the second one, and I'm not sure why it reverts. Why is this? N734LQ 08:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I question this section - I don't see anything similar on a quick look at 15 or more other senators' pages, and it seems unnotable to me. I'm removing it, but as always am interested in other opinions. Tvoz | talk 04:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. However, the fact that a Freshman senator was able to recruit former aides to the senate majority leader, as well as a former aide to the Secretary of the Treasury and a Pulitizer-winning international affairs scholar, did seem unusual and noteworthy (perhaps moreso than the details of his international travel, honorary degrees, and puff pieces in newsweeklies). Would there be any support for a short paragraph in the senate career section, like this?:
- Hickoryhillster 14:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts on this recent addition? Is it undue weight? I've only read the Nation one before, but is criticism by the Socialist Worker really notable? Wouldn't the Socialist Worker kind of...criticize anyone who's not a socialist (which is everybody in the Senate and House)? And I could've sworn we had established that the Nation article was not exactly notable criticism (back in Archive page 3), as Mr. Sirota's actual criticism came in the form of blog posts; the article itself was much more nuanced. Gzkn 00:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Two weeks have passed since the most recent semi-protection was added blocking IP edits. Here in a nutshell is my personal view as an active contributor to this article since September 2006:
Presidential candidates ought to take sustained and preemptive measures to protect their security, but their Wikipedia articles should not.
How about we try to reach a consensus approach on contributions from editors who choose not to set up user accounts or log in? I think it warrants a full discussion here. -- HailFire 03:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It should be removed temporarily to see if vandalism persists, and if so, extend the length of protection each time. It will give an opportunity to be edited by anons; however, they decide if it stays unprotected and how long. shakam
Currently you have
When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced and his father returned to Kenya
But, the BBC says
When Mr Obama was a toddler, his father got a chance to study at Harvard but there was no money for the family to go with him. He later returned to Kenya alone, where he worked as a government economist, and the couple divorced.
Which has quite a different point-of-view to it I think. I would change it myself, but I can't be arsed creating an account and waiting several days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.237.72.98 ( talk) 07:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Why not talk about his education for K-4th grade. For exampel: From http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511 "His father, also named Barack (Swahili for "One who is blessed by God," and perhaps via Arabic and Semitic roots related to the Hebrew baruch, "blessed") Obama, left his rural Luo-speaking village and his Muslim father to become an "agnostic" and study economics abroad. His son was two when the elder Barack left the boy and his mother to return to Harvard University and then to Kenya, where he became a globe-traveling economist for the government."
"When young Obama was six, his mother married an Indonesian oil manager, a "non-practicing Muslim," and the family moved to Jakarta, where his half-sister Maya was born. In this exotic Islamic country, wrote Obama's good friend, the liberal lawyer and best-selling novelist Scott Turow, Barack Obama spent "two years in a Muslim school, then two more in a Catholic school.""
Use this information to edit the main text and add information about his child life, not his absent fathers. His step father influenced him or someone did to put him in these schools. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.211.59.153 ( talk • contribs).
I removed the line that tells what celebrities are backing Obama. I really just don't think that has any real merit or purpose in a section devoted to the 2008 election. Why should the political affilation of a few celebrities have any meaning on the 2008 election. "Oh look, Oprah's backing Obama, he's going to win now". That's laughable. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 19:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[simultaneous posting]
There is a glaring hole in this article regarding criticism from leftists and progressives of Obama. There has been a mountain of criticism printed, and there should be a section on it. I offered a small section today that featured five citations, but it was immediately deleted by another user. If I do not get a good explanation as to why this criticism should be omitted, I will repost my paragraph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Organ123 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Criticism sections are pov forks. Because, well, they are pov. Jasper23 | Jasper23 20:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You cited a random reporter from The Nation and Noam Chomsky. Please atleast get quotes from political leaders before posting a critisim section. This goes hand in hand with the topic above. I don't care what celebrities or random reporters think, I care about the facts. Critisim of a biography should come from the reader's opinion of his bio, not given to them by others non-related. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 21:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Everyone take a deep breath and try to remain civil, please. Perhaps the objections to the additions would be remedied if they were incorporated more fluidly into the text instead of placed in their own subsection? Just a thought. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My main concern is that there is a significant chunk of leftists and progressives in the population who take issue with Obama, and that this group of people should be acknowledged in the article, perhaps with some quotes from well-known representatives of these critics (like Chomsky and Cockburn). Otherwise the article is missing the depth of the controversy surrounding Obama. So maybe this stuff could be put in the "Controversy" section. ... I fundamentally disagree with H2P over who is acceptable to quote. ... And I partially agree with Jasper23 here, but then I think a "Criticism of Obama's Politics" section would be appropriate instead. Something that mentions/describes criticism of Obama's politics would really add depth to this article, IMHO. Also, I would still note the "Criticisms of Noam Chomsky" Wikipedia page as an example of how such pages can exist. Organ123 22:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the PoV arguments. The current article starts one section with "Supporters describe Obama's broad appeal as a cultural rorschach test, an ink spot on which his fans can project their personal histories and aspirations." If one can't post statements from detractors because they are a PoV, then I don't think one should be able to post statements from "supporters" or "fans" either. 162.66.50.2 22:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why this is focused on criticism from the left - if we're going in incorporate criticism, then surely there is criticism from the right as well against this essentially left politician. That's why this section seems POV to me - as if the only critics are from further left? Tvoz | talk 23:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, Tvoz, and would like to see criticism from all angles on the page. I am personally only knowledgeable of the criticism from the left, so that's why I noticed it to be missing. Somebody else would have to add some from the right. ... Anyway, it seems like almost all of us are not opposed to including some criticism in the article, in one way or another. Would people be upset if I tried to carefully insert some criticism information into portions of the article, perhaps in the controversy section, without creating a new section called "Criticism"? I won't include Chomsky's quote if it offends "H2P". Then other people can feel free to add information about criticism from the right, or counter-remarks to the criticism or whatever. I'd just like to put criticism in there in one way or another, for reasons stated above. Organ123 03:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for not indicating why I removed the sentence about the Washington Times editorials earlier today - I inadvertently left it off of my edit summary. My reason was that it seems to me there's no real substance to the criticism - they're just complaining that they don't have anything to editorialize against. I think Gzkn is right, that if there is significant criticism, it should be included, but to me this is random. I'm removing it again, but also looking for something more substantive to include. Tvoz | talk 03:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the Chicago Tribune editorial board interview that talked about not ruling out missile strikes against Iran. It was from 2004 (and by the way, the date was not indicated as it should have been), and I think it is misleading to include it without a much more recent quote on the subject. The Olbermann interview was more recent but Iran was such a passing reference that I don't find it notable so I removed it as well. I do hope we can find more recent, more specific quotes that demonstrate his thinking on these issues - but this seemed to me to stretching for citable material, and I don't find either one to be of value. I didn't remove the Cockburn quote that was added to the Popular Culture section because I think it adds some needed balance - but I don't think it's the best example of that point of view so I hope we find some better. Tvoz | talk 23:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Right - I don't have a problem in principle of quotes from 2004, but I don't think we know what his "Iran stance" is. He has spoken of Iran since 2004 - for example, a quick Google-News search gave me this from this past Sunday (January 14) Face the Nation : Obama said he supports a "surge in diplomacy" in tandem with a phased redeployment. The U.S. has to bring in the regional powers like Iran and Syria, he said. The problem is, he said, Bush's plan is already set in motion. I don't find that particularly notable either - it's an affirmation of the point made by the Iraq study group. Bottom line, to me, is that we don't yet have a clear statement of any Iran stance, so to cobble together a couple of random quotes that mention Iran is, I think, not responsible. I'd advocate waiting until there's something of substance to add about this. Tvoz | talk 03:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Please. This is anti-wiki. I'll help watch the page for vandalism.-- Hollerbackgril 19:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
All I'll say at this moment is that calling this exchange a "discussion" is elevating it pretty much up to the basement. Sure hope it isn't a harbinger of the future, but I've made my position clear on optimism. Tvoz | talk 22:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
we have multiple mainstream reliable sources covering this now, you need to get over your love for your superstar OBama and stop removing revelations about his life. what is wrong with the man's own words "I inhaled frequently that was the point" might I add? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.255.19.118 ( talk) 15:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Please avoid turning our Wikipedia into a vehicle for broadcast of unverified and unchecked urban legends. New editors are always welcome at Wikipedia, but they are strongly urged to read WP:BLP before making contributions here. -- HailFire 19:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003 PIYI 19:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good debunking of all this moronic madrassah nonsense. Facts and Falsehoods about Obama -- Lee Hunter 23:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Even Fox News is distancing itslef from the "madrassa" claim now [2]. This is a perfect example why we shouldn't just run with "leaked" unofficial information, and attempt to make it "fact" in an entry like this. Bjewiki 21:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
these are THE MAN'S OWN WORDS as transcribed by MSNBC and Chris Matthews, you have NO justification in removing them in a section on his pot smoking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.255.19.118 ( talk) 15:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
That was not such a great "direct" source - it was a soundbyte - a clip - on Matthews, not a full statement or interview. I posted a more comprehensive statement and better source. The story is clearly presented, with sources, for all to read, so please stop trying to highlight it or give it undue weight by creating unnecessary subsections in a short main section just so you can add a heading "Drug use". Enough already.
Tvoz |
talk 22:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This latest edit [3] I think handles it well - gives the full quote and where to read the full interview, but doesn't give it the undue weight some are trying to give it. Well done. Tvoz | talk 19:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've included the NYT source in this version. Can we agree to let this version stand? Nothing is being hidden. This paragraph is about what's in Obama's 1995 book, not comments he made 11 years after it was published. The point is that it does not do anybody any good if the article becomes unreadable due to edits that confuse the innocent reader with Too Much Information. People who want to know more, check the notes. That what they are there for. -- HailFire 07:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, there is no television interview cited. If you, Italiavivi, are referring to the Chris Matthews piece, go back and look again - it was a soundbyte, not an interview., and as such not a good source - it is out of context. If you are referring to where the quote actually came frokm, the David Remnick piece, Remnick is an editor at The New Yorker and his interview is audio and print. So unless there is another interview, on television, that people would be "coming to this article" to look for, don't add red herrings - meaning, don't falsely elevate a minor point into some kind of major event to justify its inclusion. Next, you have mischaracterized my position. I do not, again DO NOT, think that this quote is particularly notable or necessary to include in the main text of the article. Read the Remnick interview and you will see how offhand and small a part of the discussion that one line was. Yes, it's memorable, but that doesn't make it notable for inclusion in the main text. It is a classic case for a foot note. However I was also not comfortable with it's being only alluded to rather than spelled out in the footnote as as earlier edit had it. I suggested at times to include it in the text, but on reading it all in context, and seeing how the footnote is now presented, I do not think it warrants distorting the text just to include a soundbyte. So, to be crystal clear and not have my words twisted, I support HailFire's long footnote edit and Jersyko's reinstatement of it. And I am going to reinstate it again. This is not edit warring on our part, Italiavivi - this is called reaching consensus. Tvoz | talk 19:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/19/fox-obama-madrassa/
"In Indonesia, I’d spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I’d pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended."
In his more recent book, The Audacity of Hope, Obama writes (p.274), “Without the money to go to the international school that most expatriate children attended, I went to local Indonesian schools and ran the streets with the children of farmers, servants, tailors, and clerks.” —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.136.128.7 ( talk) 11:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
I look at this page and it seems to focus an awfully lot on his personal life, struggles, etc; without ever really telling what he stands fro specifically, or his voting record. I think a section for his voting histoy (liek these pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Legislation_and_programs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Domestic_policy etc. I think this would improve the uality greatly. I would do it, but I'm not really sure what his stances are, hence why I came here to look. :P20:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Comment posted by User:69.154.2.3
In the article here it states "Obama likened the linguistic roots of his East African first name Barack to the Hebrew word baruch, meaning blessed." I was watching Late Night with Conan O'Brien, where Obama was the guest and during his appearence there he stated that his first name was Celtic. I don't know what the original air date was or have a specific reference so I did not type it into the article, but it could be noteworthy if anyone can find it. The particular episode of Late Night was the last in a particular string of episodes taped in Chicago in 2006. Kenallen 00:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that I'm planning on recording a Spoken Word version of this article, once we learn more about Obama's status in the 2008 Presidential race. If anyone has any suggestions or comments about this recording, please let me know. Otherwise, I just wanted to alert any potential other Spoken Word-ers and/or major article contributors about my plans! Regards, Rahzel 04:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I recorded a Spoken Word version of this article. My intent is to re-record it once we know for sure what Obama's plans are in terms of the Presidency, but for now this version will suffice. Let me know how it turned out! -- Rahzel 16:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000530.shtml
Can somebody mention his support for Socialized Medicine? This is one of the most important issues of the 2008 campaign and his extreme-left viewpoint should be mentioned. 66.59.106.102 18:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Hillary Clinton has one, and it's quite nice. As Obama slowly, painfully spills the beans about his viewpoints, wouldn't it be nice to catalog them in a new page? (If it exists already, feel free to erase this post.) The current page is very long and it's difficult to expand on anything. The "political advocacy" section doesn't do justice to displaying Obama's viewpoints. I think there should be a new page that gives space to these ideas. In fact, I think the creation of this page is inevitable, but I think now may be a good time to get it started. I'd be happy to help, of course. Organ123 00:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The discussion of Laura Bush's/Barack Obama's smoking/attempts to quit smoking led me to begin an essay/potential guideline on the topic of smoking within biographical articles. The participation of the editors here would be appreciated. Italiavivi 01:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't edit others' comments: Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission (with the exception of prohibited material such as libel and personal details). It is not necessary to bring talk pages to publishing standards, so there is no need to correct typing errors, grammar, etc. It tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Never edit someone's words to change their meaning. From WP:TPG.
This conversation doesn't belong here, but at the SMOKERS talk page. I see a conversation is ongoing there already. Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 15:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it needs to be pointed out somewhere in the article that Barack is very articulate. He is surprisingly well spoken. Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
WTF, is he supposed to be inarticulate? What is wrong with you???? shakam
Please tell me, why is this so surprising to you? I am African American, and I always bristle a bit when someone remarks how articulate I am. I have heard this sentiment from many others as well. Eugene Robinson expressed his unease with this very eloquently (or, should I say, articulately?) in a column in today's Washington Post[ [5]].
The point is, I've never heard anyone say that Nancy Pelosi is articulate (although I've read WAY too many remarks about her clothes). I've never heard it said about Carl Sagan, who made science so accessible for laypeople, or even Ronald Reagan, the "Great Communicator." Yet I, a lowly horticulturist, have heard it more times than I can count. So has my sister, my father, etc. The implied insult is that African Americans are not capable of, or expected to utter articulate speech.
As Eugene Robinson pointed out, something is amiss when a man is graduated from an Ivy League university, earns a law degree from another one, where he was president of the law review, and people express surprise that he can fashion a decent English sentence. You are welcome to respond on my talk page. Carlaclaws
The word for him is "eloquent." "Articulate" just means you don't talk like a moron. Eloquence is beyond that, into the realm of speaking movingly to any audience. Gods, it's ridiculous how impoverished vocabulary becomes when it's replaced by clichés. Wareq 11:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to make an observation. Sen. Obama's tone, timbre, and inflection are so similar to professional wrestler/actor Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson that in a side-by-side, sight unseen comparison, I could only tell them apart by the subject matter.
Not that this is important, but while the article obviously mentions that he is of mixed heritage, it continually refers to him as an African-American. Now in my mind this doesn't really make sense and should be remedied. I know there is a trend as refering to people of mixed race as African-American (obviously only if they are part African-American. See Tiger Woods etc.) but it isn't really correct. Anybody know if he refers to himself as African-American? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.178.9.53 ( talk • contribs).
Hooray I suppose? Shakam 06:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Obama is not considered African-american by any of the African-americans I know. Tiger Woods does not himself consider himself and African-american. For an interesting discussion compare Marshall Mathers, Tiger Woods and Obama:which one is African-american? It is not so simple that in this article we should gloss over the issue of race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.140.183.1 ( talk) 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Obama is from Hawaii. Last I checked, Hawaii is part of America, not Africa, so I'd say he's simply just American. In the discussion of race, however, that's a whole other question entirely. Do you have to be from African decent to be black? H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 06:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
No, you have to be black to be black. Shakam 06:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
No, why would he be? Shakam 20:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
In the history of America, we have always held that if one is part black then he/she is all black. (or African American) Though this might be politically incorrect now, that's how it's always been. P.S. Barack Obama does refers to himself as African American in his books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.70.254 ( talk) 30 January 2007 (UTC)
And prior to that history those idividuals mentioned were referred to as what they were, and even in parts of Florida and Georgia, even white. So, who cares about the racist history when we are dealing with 2007? Shakam 03:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I do feel it is important to mention his ethnicity. I mean if this is a page about the man and someone wants to know... and we know why not put it up there? If he is 50 percent african american it may be worth mentioning. Simply because people want to know. XXLegendXx 19:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
But you see he is not decended from the slaves brought to the US hundreds of years ago. His african stock came here in the 1950's. African-American is someone who is decended from slaves, not the recent african immigrants. Perhaps calling him a Kenyan-American would be better than African-American? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.24.48.147 ( talk • contribs).
Surely, the experiance of a person who is decended from slaves is diffrent from those who are decended from those who came here recently. To label someone who is of Kenyean decent "African-American" is stripping him of his proud culture. Those who have come here recently are also culturely diffrent than those who have been here over hundreds of years. If we were to lump all people who have african decent into the category of "African-American" we also lose the idenity of former slaves. Personally, I would not like to be called European-American, since I very well know where my grandparents came from. To label me simply "Euro-American" strips me of my grandparents Italian culture.
Hussein is a very common name in both Africa and the Middle East. That would be like saying that everybody named Joseph is related to Joseph Stalin.
Phil
67.42.243.184 19:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Or is this just internet rumor, I feel stupid for asking this.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.113.119 ( talk • contribs)
I would have to disagree with the comments above regarding "scared white-people". For starters, you cannot hide a name like Hussein in the US. The name itself has a stigma. It is not meant to "scare white-people", as I am one and am the least bit scared. Moreover, it was an internet rumor... similar to the "send this to 1 million people to raise money for so-&-so to receive a free kidney transplant". There is a lot of garbage on the web, rumors and the like. I think the point was misinterpretted as trying to "scare white-people" (racist comment if I may), when it was most likely someone saying - "Does the US want a 'Hussein' as President?" Now I understand that it is not the same family name, rather just a name... but I am willing to bet that was the initial intent. P.S. - Please stop the foul language and racial hits towards "white-people"... I believe we are officially Caucasians or Americans of European Ancestry... something more sophisticated. Thanks. Eisenmond
From what I've seen, he is a very moderate Liberal on most issues with the exception of health care where he is more Liberal.
67.42.243.184 19:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is the only politician article without a simple list of his political beliefs. Unless he is a robot and has no beliefs. In that case we need to have a section mentioning that he is a robot. -- MonJoe 13:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should include a voting record as well as his stated beliefs. 67.141.77.1 00:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
In the external links section, there's a link to Project Vote Smart, which has his voting record. However, on John McCain's page, Rudy Giuliani's page, and Hillary Clinton's page, there's a specific section for their political views (Hillary has her own page called Political Views of Hillary Clinton). - PoliticalJunkie 01:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
It's sort of ridiculous to suggest Barack Obama's political views are hard to find or nonexistant. In his book, Audacity of Hope, he actually EXPLICITLY covers pretty much every political view he has, why he has it, and how it applies to the real world. Not only that, he cuts it up into convenient sections such as "Race" or "Faith." If you wish to include his beliefs, pick up a copy of his book, look at the first and last sections of each chapter. He has said such things as, there should be universal health care, there is no reason that an effective teacher at the peak of their career should make less than 100000$/year, that the gap between Rich/Middle is growing, that race problems exist, so on, and so on, and so on. It's... all there. I really am baffled exactly how people come to the conclusion it's hard to find his views... I haven't finished the book yet. After people have considered this, and if no one has the book, I'll consider a way to include his views in such a section. I'm afraid I have no idea how to format it, what to include, so forth, since there's.. so much information in the book. Perhaps this could simply be accomplished by saying..
In Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama deeply discusses his political views, categorizing them into (Names of chapters go here). (provide example belief, perhaps provided in conclusion, from each chapter).
And, is political belief an abstract concept (such as, the Gap between poor and rich is growing, and that's bad) or distinct (We need to provide X for education and it'll cost Y$)? AltonBrownFTW 01:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think something shuold be added to let it know that he has refused to respond to the 2004 Vote Smart survey. I find this to be fairly important to know. As a "centerist", I'm very interested to know if his views have changed since 1998. (Source here: http://www.vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=BS030017) 69.154.2.3 20:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to make a article edit, and I have no real idea how to start a discussion subject. However, in 2003, Obama voted in support of SB1195, which, if passed, would have banned most of the privately held hunting shotguns, target rifles, and black powder rifles in the state of Illinois. If the ban was enacted, law enforcement officials would have been authorized to forcibly enter private homes to confiscate newly banned firearms, if the owner did not turn them in. This is one of the most draconian gun control attempts on the books, and he was all for it. if you look up the Illinois bill, please read the full text, not the synopsis; any longgun owner could tell you that this was more than a simple assault weapon ban attempt. Paganize 12:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I really think there needs to be a "Controversies" section on the main page, a place to deal with the Madrassa hoax, the 'he's really a Muslim' bigotry, etc. Sort of a one-stop-info-shop for dealing quickly with the Swiftboating (and perhaps the real issues) the may come up. TJ aka Teej 02:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of starting an article on the right wing media's attempted 'swift boating' of Obama with the phony 'madrassa' claims? (which are now coming back to bite them) >
Moonie press and collaboraters smear Obama. There are similar Wiki articles : Jamil_Hussein_controversy. - Fairness And Accuracy For John Titor 01:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a stupid argument to suggest that because he went to an ordinary Muslim school in Indonesia that he was attending some "Islamist madrassa"?! I can't even say how stupid and bigoted this is. Schools in Muslim countries are not officially "Muslim" schools, since they are ordinary public schools. But in some Muslim countries (like Iran) the public schools also teach Qur'an and Arabic. The other alternatives in those cases would be going to schools for a religious minority, like a Jewish or Christian school which are usually restricted (by the government or those communities) to Jews and Christians only. There is alot of times no "secular" school. But the public schools in Iran and Indonesia, for example, are not "Islamist madrassas" or any nonsense like that. The term "madrassa" itself only means "school" and is the generic name for "school" in many languages. I really wish people would stop this ignorance and go learn something. If I am not wrong, Obama also went to a Christian school. I also went to school in Iran and had to study Qur'an like everyone else. So this makes a person like me an "Islamist" or whatever neologism people can come up with?! This nonsense is not a scandal, it is a non-issue being made into something by bigoted, ignorant, and intolerant people with no proper education. Khorshid 20:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 13:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
While some of the the Clinton campaign's whispers have gotten ridiculous it is undeniable that his father and stepfather were both born Muslim and Osama himself attended an Indonesian madarass for 2 years. He talks about this in his own books. For better or worse these are facts. It is also true he has been a United Church of Christ member for 20 years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.171.151 ( talk • contribs).
All of the charges were made by unprofessional, unsubstantiated, sourceless accusations in Insight Magazine, a project spawned by the Unification Church. Both the Clinton and Obama camps refuted the accusations. Even the Fox News Network issued a full retraction. See the entire account in the David D. Kirkpatrick New York Times, 29 January 2007 article. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/29/us/politics/29media.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ) Dogru144 00:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Dogru144 00:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The Fox News network said that the story violated their basic rule of knowing "what you are talking about.” 29 January New York Times story. Dogru144 00:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the Jon Stewart/Comedy Central clip should be included, as it has clips of the Fox News people actually 'reporting' the story, as well addressing the misinformation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aQ63ml0XxY Flatterworld 16:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Even the Fox News Network issued a full retraction. Not true, and it remains on the websites of several of their 'pundits'. btw - the link was posted in the Insight magazine "madrassa" media controversy article after that was created. Flatterworld 06:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the import of the "madrassa scandal", I do find it rather interesting that, when searching for "fox news controversies" on wikipedia, you will find four or five topics that contain all of the search terms. When searching for ABC, NBC, CBS, or CNN news controversies, their is nary a one entry that corresponds. I personally believe that the politicians on both sides of the isle are, in the great majority, disingenuous in the least and corrupt and evil in the main. I also believe we live in an oligarchy whose producers put on a play of democracy in the form of a represented republic to the masses, with both sides greatly desirous of implementing their own specialized plutocracy. That said, whether you are a cynic of contemporary politics as I am, whether you are a partisan of one side or the other, or whether you are something else, do you not think it is laughably absurd that only fox news has numerous pages dedicated specifically to supposed and real manipulations of the news? Such instances like this lend credibility to the proposition that Wikipedia, when dealing with political, social, moral, religious, and, to some extent, philosophical subject matter, is much more an oracle of the Left that imports a biased view rather than a neutral encyclopedic source that seeks to realistically inform. I am a cynic only when it suggests itself as the most rational position, and so, here, I am a cynic. If you seek dispassionate information or debate about the arrow frog to ice cream, the nucleus to nebulae, Wikipedia is a wonderful, superficial start. If you seek to understand the intellect, morality, and wisdom of Man, Wikipedia, more often than not, only offers an education into one side of the dissimulative nature of Man. I'm curious, is their a website of this stature that opposes this one and offers up the hypocrisy of the Right?
Would it be useful to include the pronunciation of his name in the opening paragraph of this article? The BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2007/01/how_to_say_barack_obama.shtml) has published a guideline on the matter. They say it's 'buh-RAAK oh-BAA-muh', which translates to [bəˈrɑːk oʊˈbɑːmə] in IPA. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your
posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by 82.34.120.8 ( talk) 17:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
For a strange coincidence, his first name "Barack" in its written form means "peach" in Hungarian (the noun "barack" is however pronounced as "buh-rutsk" in that language), thus looks a bit funny for native readers and gives his name a pleasant touch, as summoning the image of the fruit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.120.117.214 ( talk • contribs).
Wow, this is interesting (not!)--I wonder what kind of ashtray he uses. You know maybe we can figure out whatn kind of President he would be if we analyse his ciggarette butts.
67.42.243.184 19:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone should make mention of this, its an interesting fact. Unsigned comment by User:68.83.158.204
-no agenda here, just genuinely curious
Wow, just wow. Shakam 03:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I just said in an edit summary removing the fact that Obama is trying to quit smoking. Just because something is true, and has a citation, does NOT mean it is notable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. There are regular reminders of length concerns on Wikipedia, which I don't personally necessarily agree with but they are indeed the environment within which we work - especially for a Featured Article which this one is. The fact that Obama smokes cigarettes and is trying to stop is utterly absurd to be included in this article, cited, quoted, and wrapped up in a ribbon and presented.
Tvoz |
talk 21:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
What is notability, can it easily be defined without pushing our own biased views and opinions? I don't think it should be included in the article if you're wondering, I think because I feel it is insignificant. Shakam 06:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It probably should be on there, though written in an unbiased way. This is a potential presidential candidate and smoking is something which people will want include in their decision. Insignificant? I don't think so. Though not as grave a habit as getting frisky with interns, smoking is still a habit about which many people feel strongly. How I feel about the issue IS however insignificant. Erik
First things first, does anyone actually have a credible source to confirm this? If someone mentioned one early, I apologize, but I didn't see one above. I don't think it would be appropriate to include this fact if you can't site a source. But, if you can find a source, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't bee included, despite it being a triviality.
Stop Me Now! 14:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Not like it matters a whole lot, but it's pretty well confirmed that he's trying to quit smoking for the presidential run. -- 69.244.153.46 22:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
According to this article he wrote for Time:
"In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist that she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. Moreover, as a child I rarely came in contact with those who might offer a substantially different view of faith. My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was 2 years old; in any event, although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition."
His mother exposed him to many different religions when he was young, but didn't raise him with any. His father was an atheist when his parents married, so it is highly unlikely that for the first two years of his life Obama was "Muslim," whatever that would mean. So his Muslim name is only that, a name. Arrow740 22:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Can a child really be considered to be religious anyway? Richard Dawkins discusses this at length. Even if both his parents were praticing Muslims, Christians, Zoroastrians, or whatever, it wouldn't matter, because he was a child and children can't be considered to be of one religion or another since they're too young to make those kinds of personal identity decisions. obama's childhood "religion" shouldn't even be a consideration. What is important, however, is how he was raised to view religion, and how his upbringing (religious or otherwise) informed his current faith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.227.219.0 ( talk • contribs).
Fox news is reporting Obama attended a Madrassa. reference: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245079,00.html
Insight magazine reports his 4 year Madrassa schooling was exposed by Hillary Clinton and other Democratic party opponent researchers. reference: http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Obama_2.htm
Dr. Dale 01:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Dr. Dale
Fact Is - this article skips his education up until 5th grade. What kind of schools did he go to until 5th grade, wasn't his step father originally a muslim? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.211.59.153 ( talk • contribs).
If this is a featured article, I would expect know what are his affiliation and views on religion currently; however, I can NOT seem to gain this information from the article. This is disappointing indeed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.141.119.161 ( talk • contribs).
I have recommended that this article be referred to Featured Article review to be reevaluated because of concerns that it no longer meets the Featured Article criteria and, unless remedied, it should have its Featured Article status revoked. Please see and comment here: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama — ExplorerCDT 23:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Pursuant to the FAR, I ran through all of the references yesterday: it is extremely rare to find an article this well referenced on WP:FAC - never at WP:FAR. It is also rare to find an article that completely conforms to guidelines such as WP:MOS, WP:MSH, WP:GTL, and so on. Kudos to editors here, mainly HailFire, I understand.
I found no unreliable sources, and only one dead link (in Presidential ambitions - pls have a look - I put a verification needed tag on it).
I made the following changes:
I found one thing that should be addressed: there are four specific citations from a book authored by Obama (Dreams something), that had been combined into one named ref. I split them out because page numbers should be provided for each one (along with an ISBN on the ref now listed in References, so we know which edition the page numbers refer to). Can someone pls fill in that information? I left them with p. x.
This article is far superior to what usually comes through FAR: I hope you're all able to keep it that way, and that new editors appreciate the quality of the work relative to the kind of stuff that is getting promoted daily at WP:FAC. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
There has been an unexplained (as far as I've seen, that is) back-and-forth for months about where Obama's father comes from - sometimes rendered as "Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya" sometimes the "Nyangoma" is deleted and then sure enough reinserted a short while later. I have no idea if there is any meaning behind these edits in either direction, but the back-and-forth seems pointless to me - so if anyone knows, can we decide which it should be and leave it as such? I have no information, and therefore no opinion. Tvoz | talk 23:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
According to BBC, his father was born in "Nyangoma Kogalo in Nyanza province". - PoliticalJunkie 22:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The article contains no old pics. Here is a good one for the "early years" section of the article. I don't know how to include it...
http://starbulletin.com/2004/07/25/news/story7.html—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.35.141.146 ( talk • contribs).
Do you think he looks too black in that picture?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.141.146 ( talk • contribs)
I haven't read this article yet, but I did see this in the early part, that left me confused:
But the very next sentence indicates he didn't grow up with his father, his father wasn't even in the same country, so this quote seems to give undue importance to something that he might have barely remembered - can this be resolved? His memories before the age of two aren't meaningful ????
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I ran a prose size check in case this comes up on review - readable prose becomes a concern if it passes 40KB.
(I don't have this page watchlisted, so ping me if you have questions during review, or post to the FAR.) SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it keeps changing back and forth from "Junior Senator" to "Junior U.S. Senator". I changed it to the second one, and I'm not sure why it reverts. Why is this? N734LQ 08:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I question this section - I don't see anything similar on a quick look at 15 or more other senators' pages, and it seems unnotable to me. I'm removing it, but as always am interested in other opinions. Tvoz | talk 04:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Point taken. However, the fact that a Freshman senator was able to recruit former aides to the senate majority leader, as well as a former aide to the Secretary of the Treasury and a Pulitizer-winning international affairs scholar, did seem unusual and noteworthy (perhaps moreso than the details of his international travel, honorary degrees, and puff pieces in newsweeklies). Would there be any support for a short paragraph in the senate career section, like this?:
- Hickoryhillster 14:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Thoughts on this recent addition? Is it undue weight? I've only read the Nation one before, but is criticism by the Socialist Worker really notable? Wouldn't the Socialist Worker kind of...criticize anyone who's not a socialist (which is everybody in the Senate and House)? And I could've sworn we had established that the Nation article was not exactly notable criticism (back in Archive page 3), as Mr. Sirota's actual criticism came in the form of blog posts; the article itself was much more nuanced. Gzkn 00:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Two weeks have passed since the most recent semi-protection was added blocking IP edits. Here in a nutshell is my personal view as an active contributor to this article since September 2006:
Presidential candidates ought to take sustained and preemptive measures to protect their security, but their Wikipedia articles should not.
How about we try to reach a consensus approach on contributions from editors who choose not to set up user accounts or log in? I think it warrants a full discussion here. -- HailFire 03:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It should be removed temporarily to see if vandalism persists, and if so, extend the length of protection each time. It will give an opportunity to be edited by anons; however, they decide if it stays unprotected and how long. shakam
Currently you have
When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced and his father returned to Kenya
But, the BBC says
When Mr Obama was a toddler, his father got a chance to study at Harvard but there was no money for the family to go with him. He later returned to Kenya alone, where he worked as a government economist, and the couple divorced.
Which has quite a different point-of-view to it I think. I would change it myself, but I can't be arsed creating an account and waiting several days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.237.72.98 ( talk) 07:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Why not talk about his education for K-4th grade. For exampel: From http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1511 "His father, also named Barack (Swahili for "One who is blessed by God," and perhaps via Arabic and Semitic roots related to the Hebrew baruch, "blessed") Obama, left his rural Luo-speaking village and his Muslim father to become an "agnostic" and study economics abroad. His son was two when the elder Barack left the boy and his mother to return to Harvard University and then to Kenya, where he became a globe-traveling economist for the government."
"When young Obama was six, his mother married an Indonesian oil manager, a "non-practicing Muslim," and the family moved to Jakarta, where his half-sister Maya was born. In this exotic Islamic country, wrote Obama's good friend, the liberal lawyer and best-selling novelist Scott Turow, Barack Obama spent "two years in a Muslim school, then two more in a Catholic school.""
Use this information to edit the main text and add information about his child life, not his absent fathers. His step father influenced him or someone did to put him in these schools. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.211.59.153 ( talk • contribs).
I removed the line that tells what celebrities are backing Obama. I really just don't think that has any real merit or purpose in a section devoted to the 2008 election. Why should the political affilation of a few celebrities have any meaning on the 2008 election. "Oh look, Oprah's backing Obama, he's going to win now". That's laughable. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 19:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[simultaneous posting]
There is a glaring hole in this article regarding criticism from leftists and progressives of Obama. There has been a mountain of criticism printed, and there should be a section on it. I offered a small section today that featured five citations, but it was immediately deleted by another user. If I do not get a good explanation as to why this criticism should be omitted, I will repost my paragraph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Organ123 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Criticism sections are pov forks. Because, well, they are pov. Jasper23 | Jasper23 20:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You cited a random reporter from The Nation and Noam Chomsky. Please atleast get quotes from political leaders before posting a critisim section. This goes hand in hand with the topic above. I don't care what celebrities or random reporters think, I care about the facts. Critisim of a biography should come from the reader's opinion of his bio, not given to them by others non-related. H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 21:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Everyone take a deep breath and try to remain civil, please. Perhaps the objections to the additions would be remedied if they were incorporated more fluidly into the text instead of placed in their own subsection? Just a thought. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My main concern is that there is a significant chunk of leftists and progressives in the population who take issue with Obama, and that this group of people should be acknowledged in the article, perhaps with some quotes from well-known representatives of these critics (like Chomsky and Cockburn). Otherwise the article is missing the depth of the controversy surrounding Obama. So maybe this stuff could be put in the "Controversy" section. ... I fundamentally disagree with H2P over who is acceptable to quote. ... And I partially agree with Jasper23 here, but then I think a "Criticism of Obama's Politics" section would be appropriate instead. Something that mentions/describes criticism of Obama's politics would really add depth to this article, IMHO. Also, I would still note the "Criticisms of Noam Chomsky" Wikipedia page as an example of how such pages can exist. Organ123 22:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the PoV arguments. The current article starts one section with "Supporters describe Obama's broad appeal as a cultural rorschach test, an ink spot on which his fans can project their personal histories and aspirations." If one can't post statements from detractors because they are a PoV, then I don't think one should be able to post statements from "supporters" or "fans" either. 162.66.50.2 22:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I wonder why this is focused on criticism from the left - if we're going in incorporate criticism, then surely there is criticism from the right as well against this essentially left politician. That's why this section seems POV to me - as if the only critics are from further left? Tvoz | talk 23:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, Tvoz, and would like to see criticism from all angles on the page. I am personally only knowledgeable of the criticism from the left, so that's why I noticed it to be missing. Somebody else would have to add some from the right. ... Anyway, it seems like almost all of us are not opposed to including some criticism in the article, in one way or another. Would people be upset if I tried to carefully insert some criticism information into portions of the article, perhaps in the controversy section, without creating a new section called "Criticism"? I won't include Chomsky's quote if it offends "H2P". Then other people can feel free to add information about criticism from the right, or counter-remarks to the criticism or whatever. I'd just like to put criticism in there in one way or another, for reasons stated above. Organ123 03:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for not indicating why I removed the sentence about the Washington Times editorials earlier today - I inadvertently left it off of my edit summary. My reason was that it seems to me there's no real substance to the criticism - they're just complaining that they don't have anything to editorialize against. I think Gzkn is right, that if there is significant criticism, it should be included, but to me this is random. I'm removing it again, but also looking for something more substantive to include. Tvoz | talk 03:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the Chicago Tribune editorial board interview that talked about not ruling out missile strikes against Iran. It was from 2004 (and by the way, the date was not indicated as it should have been), and I think it is misleading to include it without a much more recent quote on the subject. The Olbermann interview was more recent but Iran was such a passing reference that I don't find it notable so I removed it as well. I do hope we can find more recent, more specific quotes that demonstrate his thinking on these issues - but this seemed to me to stretching for citable material, and I don't find either one to be of value. I didn't remove the Cockburn quote that was added to the Popular Culture section because I think it adds some needed balance - but I don't think it's the best example of that point of view so I hope we find some better. Tvoz | talk 23:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Right - I don't have a problem in principle of quotes from 2004, but I don't think we know what his "Iran stance" is. He has spoken of Iran since 2004 - for example, a quick Google-News search gave me this from this past Sunday (January 14) Face the Nation : Obama said he supports a "surge in diplomacy" in tandem with a phased redeployment. The U.S. has to bring in the regional powers like Iran and Syria, he said. The problem is, he said, Bush's plan is already set in motion. I don't find that particularly notable either - it's an affirmation of the point made by the Iraq study group. Bottom line, to me, is that we don't yet have a clear statement of any Iran stance, so to cobble together a couple of random quotes that mention Iran is, I think, not responsible. I'd advocate waiting until there's something of substance to add about this. Tvoz | talk 03:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Please. This is anti-wiki. I'll help watch the page for vandalism.-- Hollerbackgril 19:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
All I'll say at this moment is that calling this exchange a "discussion" is elevating it pretty much up to the basement. Sure hope it isn't a harbinger of the future, but I've made my position clear on optimism. Tvoz | talk 22:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
we have multiple mainstream reliable sources covering this now, you need to get over your love for your superstar OBama and stop removing revelations about his life. what is wrong with the man's own words "I inhaled frequently that was the point" might I add? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.255.19.118 ( talk) 15:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
Please avoid turning our Wikipedia into a vehicle for broadcast of unverified and unchecked urban legends. New editors are always welcome at Wikipedia, but they are strongly urged to read WP:BLP before making contributions here. -- HailFire 19:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
http://mediamatters.org/items/200701200003 PIYI 19:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good debunking of all this moronic madrassah nonsense. Facts and Falsehoods about Obama -- Lee Hunter 23:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Even Fox News is distancing itslef from the "madrassa" claim now [2]. This is a perfect example why we shouldn't just run with "leaked" unofficial information, and attempt to make it "fact" in an entry like this. Bjewiki 21:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
these are THE MAN'S OWN WORDS as transcribed by MSNBC and Chris Matthews, you have NO justification in removing them in a section on his pot smoking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.255.19.118 ( talk) 15:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
That was not such a great "direct" source - it was a soundbyte - a clip - on Matthews, not a full statement or interview. I posted a more comprehensive statement and better source. The story is clearly presented, with sources, for all to read, so please stop trying to highlight it or give it undue weight by creating unnecessary subsections in a short main section just so you can add a heading "Drug use". Enough already.
Tvoz |
talk 22:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
This latest edit [3] I think handles it well - gives the full quote and where to read the full interview, but doesn't give it the undue weight some are trying to give it. Well done. Tvoz | talk 19:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've included the NYT source in this version. Can we agree to let this version stand? Nothing is being hidden. This paragraph is about what's in Obama's 1995 book, not comments he made 11 years after it was published. The point is that it does not do anybody any good if the article becomes unreadable due to edits that confuse the innocent reader with Too Much Information. People who want to know more, check the notes. That what they are there for. -- HailFire 07:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, there is no television interview cited. If you, Italiavivi, are referring to the Chris Matthews piece, go back and look again - it was a soundbyte, not an interview., and as such not a good source - it is out of context. If you are referring to where the quote actually came frokm, the David Remnick piece, Remnick is an editor at The New Yorker and his interview is audio and print. So unless there is another interview, on television, that people would be "coming to this article" to look for, don't add red herrings - meaning, don't falsely elevate a minor point into some kind of major event to justify its inclusion. Next, you have mischaracterized my position. I do not, again DO NOT, think that this quote is particularly notable or necessary to include in the main text of the article. Read the Remnick interview and you will see how offhand and small a part of the discussion that one line was. Yes, it's memorable, but that doesn't make it notable for inclusion in the main text. It is a classic case for a foot note. However I was also not comfortable with it's being only alluded to rather than spelled out in the footnote as as earlier edit had it. I suggested at times to include it in the text, but on reading it all in context, and seeing how the footnote is now presented, I do not think it warrants distorting the text just to include a soundbyte. So, to be crystal clear and not have my words twisted, I support HailFire's long footnote edit and Jersyko's reinstatement of it. And I am going to reinstate it again. This is not edit warring on our part, Italiavivi - this is called reaching consensus. Tvoz | talk 19:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/19/fox-obama-madrassa/
"In Indonesia, I’d spent 2 years at a Muslim school, 2 years at a Catholic school. In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies. In the Catholic school, when it came time to pray, I’d pretend to close my eyes, then peek around the room. Nothing happened. No angels descended."
In his more recent book, The Audacity of Hope, Obama writes (p.274), “Without the money to go to the international school that most expatriate children attended, I went to local Indonesian schools and ran the streets with the children of farmers, servants, tailors, and clerks.” —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.136.128.7 ( talk) 11:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
I look at this page and it seems to focus an awfully lot on his personal life, struggles, etc; without ever really telling what he stands fro specifically, or his voting record. I think a section for his voting histoy (liek these pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton#Legislation_and_programs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Domestic_policy etc. I think this would improve the uality greatly. I would do it, but I'm not really sure what his stances are, hence why I came here to look. :P20:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Comment posted by User:69.154.2.3
In the article here it states "Obama likened the linguistic roots of his East African first name Barack to the Hebrew word baruch, meaning blessed." I was watching Late Night with Conan O'Brien, where Obama was the guest and during his appearence there he stated that his first name was Celtic. I don't know what the original air date was or have a specific reference so I did not type it into the article, but it could be noteworthy if anyone can find it. The particular episode of Late Night was the last in a particular string of episodes taped in Chicago in 2006. Kenallen 00:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that I'm planning on recording a Spoken Word version of this article, once we learn more about Obama's status in the 2008 Presidential race. If anyone has any suggestions or comments about this recording, please let me know. Otherwise, I just wanted to alert any potential other Spoken Word-ers and/or major article contributors about my plans! Regards, Rahzel 04:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I recorded a Spoken Word version of this article. My intent is to re-record it once we know for sure what Obama's plans are in terms of the Presidency, but for now this version will suffice. Let me know how it turned out! -- Rahzel 16:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000530.shtml
Can somebody mention his support for Socialized Medicine? This is one of the most important issues of the 2008 campaign and his extreme-left viewpoint should be mentioned. 66.59.106.102 18:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Hillary Clinton has one, and it's quite nice. As Obama slowly, painfully spills the beans about his viewpoints, wouldn't it be nice to catalog them in a new page? (If it exists already, feel free to erase this post.) The current page is very long and it's difficult to expand on anything. The "political advocacy" section doesn't do justice to displaying Obama's viewpoints. I think there should be a new page that gives space to these ideas. In fact, I think the creation of this page is inevitable, but I think now may be a good time to get it started. I'd be happy to help, of course. Organ123 00:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The discussion of Laura Bush's/Barack Obama's smoking/attempts to quit smoking led me to begin an essay/potential guideline on the topic of smoking within biographical articles. The participation of the editors here would be appreciated. Italiavivi 01:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't edit others' comments: Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission (with the exception of prohibited material such as libel and personal details). It is not necessary to bring talk pages to publishing standards, so there is no need to correct typing errors, grammar, etc. It tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Never edit someone's words to change their meaning. From WP:TPG.
This conversation doesn't belong here, but at the SMOKERS talk page. I see a conversation is ongoing there already. Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 15:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it needs to be pointed out somewhere in the article that Barack is very articulate. He is surprisingly well spoken. Just a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
WTF, is he supposed to be inarticulate? What is wrong with you???? shakam
Please tell me, why is this so surprising to you? I am African American, and I always bristle a bit when someone remarks how articulate I am. I have heard this sentiment from many others as well. Eugene Robinson expressed his unease with this very eloquently (or, should I say, articulately?) in a column in today's Washington Post[ [5]].
The point is, I've never heard anyone say that Nancy Pelosi is articulate (although I've read WAY too many remarks about her clothes). I've never heard it said about Carl Sagan, who made science so accessible for laypeople, or even Ronald Reagan, the "Great Communicator." Yet I, a lowly horticulturist, have heard it more times than I can count. So has my sister, my father, etc. The implied insult is that African Americans are not capable of, or expected to utter articulate speech.
As Eugene Robinson pointed out, something is amiss when a man is graduated from an Ivy League university, earns a law degree from another one, where he was president of the law review, and people express surprise that he can fashion a decent English sentence. You are welcome to respond on my talk page. Carlaclaws
The word for him is "eloquent." "Articulate" just means you don't talk like a moron. Eloquence is beyond that, into the realm of speaking movingly to any audience. Gods, it's ridiculous how impoverished vocabulary becomes when it's replaced by clichés. Wareq 11:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to make an observation. Sen. Obama's tone, timbre, and inflection are so similar to professional wrestler/actor Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson that in a side-by-side, sight unseen comparison, I could only tell them apart by the subject matter.
Not that this is important, but while the article obviously mentions that he is of mixed heritage, it continually refers to him as an African-American. Now in my mind this doesn't really make sense and should be remedied. I know there is a trend as refering to people of mixed race as African-American (obviously only if they are part African-American. See Tiger Woods etc.) but it isn't really correct. Anybody know if he refers to himself as African-American? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.178.9.53 ( talk • contribs).
Hooray I suppose? Shakam 06:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Obama is not considered African-american by any of the African-americans I know. Tiger Woods does not himself consider himself and African-american. For an interesting discussion compare Marshall Mathers, Tiger Woods and Obama:which one is African-american? It is not so simple that in this article we should gloss over the issue of race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.140.183.1 ( talk) 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Obama is from Hawaii. Last I checked, Hawaii is part of America, not Africa, so I'd say he's simply just American. In the discussion of race, however, that's a whole other question entirely. Do you have to be from African decent to be black? H2P ( Yell at me for what I've done) 06:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
No, you have to be black to be black. Shakam 06:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
No, why would he be? Shakam 20:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
In the history of America, we have always held that if one is part black then he/she is all black. (or African American) Though this might be politically incorrect now, that's how it's always been. P.S. Barack Obama does refers to himself as African American in his books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.129.70.254 ( talk) 30 January 2007 (UTC)
And prior to that history those idividuals mentioned were referred to as what they were, and even in parts of Florida and Georgia, even white. So, who cares about the racist history when we are dealing with 2007? Shakam 03:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I do feel it is important to mention his ethnicity. I mean if this is a page about the man and someone wants to know... and we know why not put it up there? If he is 50 percent african american it may be worth mentioning. Simply because people want to know. XXLegendXx 19:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
But you see he is not decended from the slaves brought to the US hundreds of years ago. His african stock came here in the 1950's. African-American is someone who is decended from slaves, not the recent african immigrants. Perhaps calling him a Kenyan-American would be better than African-American? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.24.48.147 ( talk • contribs).
Surely, the experiance of a person who is decended from slaves is diffrent from those who are decended from those who came here recently. To label someone who is of Kenyean decent "African-American" is stripping him of his proud culture. Those who have come here recently are also culturely diffrent than those who have been here over hundreds of years. If we were to lump all people who have african decent into the category of "African-American" we also lose the idenity of former slaves. Personally, I would not like to be called European-American, since I very well know where my grandparents came from. To label me simply "Euro-American" strips me of my grandparents Italian culture.
Hussein is a very common name in both Africa and the Middle East. That would be like saying that everybody named Joseph is related to Joseph Stalin.
Phil
67.42.243.184 19:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Or is this just internet rumor, I feel stupid for asking this.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.113.119 ( talk • contribs)
I would have to disagree with the comments above regarding "scared white-people". For starters, you cannot hide a name like Hussein in the US. The name itself has a stigma. It is not meant to "scare white-people", as I am one and am the least bit scared. Moreover, it was an internet rumor... similar to the "send this to 1 million people to raise money for so-&-so to receive a free kidney transplant". There is a lot of garbage on the web, rumors and the like. I think the point was misinterpretted as trying to "scare white-people" (racist comment if I may), when it was most likely someone saying - "Does the US want a 'Hussein' as President?" Now I understand that it is not the same family name, rather just a name... but I am willing to bet that was the initial intent. P.S. - Please stop the foul language and racial hits towards "white-people"... I believe we are officially Caucasians or Americans of European Ancestry... something more sophisticated. Thanks. Eisenmond
From what I've seen, he is a very moderate Liberal on most issues with the exception of health care where he is more Liberal.
67.42.243.184 19:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is the only politician article without a simple list of his political beliefs. Unless he is a robot and has no beliefs. In that case we need to have a section mentioning that he is a robot. -- MonJoe 13:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we should include a voting record as well as his stated beliefs. 67.141.77.1 00:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
In the external links section, there's a link to Project Vote Smart, which has his voting record. However, on John McCain's page, Rudy Giuliani's page, and Hillary Clinton's page, there's a specific section for their political views (Hillary has her own page called Political Views of Hillary Clinton). - PoliticalJunkie 01:42, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
It's sort of ridiculous to suggest Barack Obama's political views are hard to find or nonexistant. In his book, Audacity of Hope, he actually EXPLICITLY covers pretty much every political view he has, why he has it, and how it applies to the real world. Not only that, he cuts it up into convenient sections such as "Race" or "Faith." If you wish to include his beliefs, pick up a copy of his book, look at the first and last sections of each chapter. He has said such things as, there should be universal health care, there is no reason that an effective teacher at the peak of their career should make less than 100000$/year, that the gap between Rich/Middle is growing, that race problems exist, so on, and so on, and so on. It's... all there. I really am baffled exactly how people come to the conclusion it's hard to find his views... I haven't finished the book yet. After people have considered this, and if no one has the book, I'll consider a way to include his views in such a section. I'm afraid I have no idea how to format it, what to include, so forth, since there's.. so much information in the book. Perhaps this could simply be accomplished by saying..
In Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama deeply discusses his political views, categorizing them into (Names of chapters go here). (provide example belief, perhaps provided in conclusion, from each chapter).
And, is political belief an abstract concept (such as, the Gap between poor and rich is growing, and that's bad) or distinct (We need to provide X for education and it'll cost Y$)? AltonBrownFTW 01:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I think something shuold be added to let it know that he has refused to respond to the 2004 Vote Smart survey. I find this to be fairly important to know. As a "centerist", I'm very interested to know if his views have changed since 1998. (Source here: http://www.vote-smart.org/npat.php?can_id=BS030017) 69.154.2.3 20:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to make a article edit, and I have no real idea how to start a discussion subject. However, in 2003, Obama voted in support of SB1195, which, if passed, would have banned most of the privately held hunting shotguns, target rifles, and black powder rifles in the state of Illinois. If the ban was enacted, law enforcement officials would have been authorized to forcibly enter private homes to confiscate newly banned firearms, if the owner did not turn them in. This is one of the most draconian gun control attempts on the books, and he was all for it. if you look up the Illinois bill, please read the full text, not the synopsis; any longgun owner could tell you that this was more than a simple assault weapon ban attempt. Paganize 12:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I really think there needs to be a "Controversies" section on the main page, a place to deal with the Madrassa hoax, the 'he's really a Muslim' bigotry, etc. Sort of a one-stop-info-shop for dealing quickly with the Swiftboating (and perhaps the real issues) the may come up. TJ aka Teej 02:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone thought of starting an article on the right wing media's attempted 'swift boating' of Obama with the phony 'madrassa' claims? (which are now coming back to bite them) >
Moonie press and collaboraters smear Obama. There are similar Wiki articles : Jamil_Hussein_controversy. - Fairness And Accuracy For John Titor 01:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a stupid argument to suggest that because he went to an ordinary Muslim school in Indonesia that he was attending some "Islamist madrassa"?! I can't even say how stupid and bigoted this is. Schools in Muslim countries are not officially "Muslim" schools, since they are ordinary public schools. But in some Muslim countries (like Iran) the public schools also teach Qur'an and Arabic. The other alternatives in those cases would be going to schools for a religious minority, like a Jewish or Christian school which are usually restricted (by the government or those communities) to Jews and Christians only. There is alot of times no "secular" school. But the public schools in Iran and Indonesia, for example, are not "Islamist madrassas" or any nonsense like that. The term "madrassa" itself only means "school" and is the generic name for "school" in many languages. I really wish people would stop this ignorance and go learn something. If I am not wrong, Obama also went to a Christian school. I also went to school in Iran and had to study Qur'an like everyone else. So this makes a person like me an "Islamist" or whatever neologism people can come up with?! This nonsense is not a scandal, it is a non-issue being made into something by bigoted, ignorant, and intolerant people with no proper education. Khorshid 20:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 13:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
While some of the the Clinton campaign's whispers have gotten ridiculous it is undeniable that his father and stepfather were both born Muslim and Osama himself attended an Indonesian madarass for 2 years. He talks about this in his own books. For better or worse these are facts. It is also true he has been a United Church of Christ member for 20 years. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.171.151 ( talk • contribs).
All of the charges were made by unprofessional, unsubstantiated, sourceless accusations in Insight Magazine, a project spawned by the Unification Church. Both the Clinton and Obama camps refuted the accusations. Even the Fox News Network issued a full retraction. See the entire account in the David D. Kirkpatrick New York Times, 29 January 2007 article. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/29/us/politics/29media.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ) Dogru144 00:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Dogru144 00:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The Fox News network said that the story violated their basic rule of knowing "what you are talking about.” 29 January New York Times story. Dogru144 00:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the Jon Stewart/Comedy Central clip should be included, as it has clips of the Fox News people actually 'reporting' the story, as well addressing the misinformation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aQ63ml0XxY Flatterworld 16:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Even the Fox News Network issued a full retraction. Not true, and it remains on the websites of several of their 'pundits'. btw - the link was posted in the Insight magazine "madrassa" media controversy article after that was created. Flatterworld 06:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the import of the "madrassa scandal", I do find it rather interesting that, when searching for "fox news controversies" on wikipedia, you will find four or five topics that contain all of the search terms. When searching for ABC, NBC, CBS, or CNN news controversies, their is nary a one entry that corresponds. I personally believe that the politicians on both sides of the isle are, in the great majority, disingenuous in the least and corrupt and evil in the main. I also believe we live in an oligarchy whose producers put on a play of democracy in the form of a represented republic to the masses, with both sides greatly desirous of implementing their own specialized plutocracy. That said, whether you are a cynic of contemporary politics as I am, whether you are a partisan of one side or the other, or whether you are something else, do you not think it is laughably absurd that only fox news has numerous pages dedicated specifically to supposed and real manipulations of the news? Such instances like this lend credibility to the proposition that Wikipedia, when dealing with political, social, moral, religious, and, to some extent, philosophical subject matter, is much more an oracle of the Left that imports a biased view rather than a neutral encyclopedic source that seeks to realistically inform. I am a cynic only when it suggests itself as the most rational position, and so, here, I am a cynic. If you seek dispassionate information or debate about the arrow frog to ice cream, the nucleus to nebulae, Wikipedia is a wonderful, superficial start. If you seek to understand the intellect, morality, and wisdom of Man, Wikipedia, more often than not, only offers an education into one side of the dissimulative nature of Man. I'm curious, is their a website of this stature that opposes this one and offers up the hypocrisy of the Right?
Would it be useful to include the pronunciation of his name in the opening paragraph of this article? The BBC ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2007/01/how_to_say_barack_obama.shtml) has published a guideline on the matter. They say it's 'buh-RAAK oh-BAA-muh', which translates to [bəˈrɑːk oʊˈbɑːmə] in IPA. —The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your
posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by 82.34.120.8 ( talk) 17:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
For a strange coincidence, his first name "Barack" in its written form means "peach" in Hungarian (the noun "barack" is however pronounced as "buh-rutsk" in that language), thus looks a bit funny for native readers and gives his name a pleasant touch, as summoning the image of the fruit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.120.117.214 ( talk • contribs).
Wow, this is interesting (not!)--I wonder what kind of ashtray he uses. You know maybe we can figure out whatn kind of President he would be if we analyse his ciggarette butts.
67.42.243.184 19:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Someone should make mention of this, its an interesting fact. Unsigned comment by User:68.83.158.204
-no agenda here, just genuinely curious
Wow, just wow. Shakam 03:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I just said in an edit summary removing the fact that Obama is trying to quit smoking. Just because something is true, and has a citation, does NOT mean it is notable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. There are regular reminders of length concerns on Wikipedia, which I don't personally necessarily agree with but they are indeed the environment within which we work - especially for a Featured Article which this one is. The fact that Obama smokes cigarettes and is trying to stop is utterly absurd to be included in this article, cited, quoted, and wrapped up in a ribbon and presented.
Tvoz |
talk 21:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
What is notability, can it easily be defined without pushing our own biased views and opinions? I don't think it should be included in the article if you're wondering, I think because I feel it is insignificant. Shakam 06:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It probably should be on there, though written in an unbiased way. This is a potential presidential candidate and smoking is something which people will want include in their decision. Insignificant? I don't think so. Though not as grave a habit as getting frisky with interns, smoking is still a habit about which many people feel strongly. How I feel about the issue IS however insignificant. Erik
First things first, does anyone actually have a credible source to confirm this? If someone mentioned one early, I apologize, but I didn't see one above. I don't think it would be appropriate to include this fact if you can't site a source. But, if you can find a source, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't bee included, despite it being a triviality.
Stop Me Now! 14:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Not like it matters a whole lot, but it's pretty well confirmed that he's trying to quit smoking for the presidential run. -- 69.244.153.46 22:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)