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Reviewer: Colin M ( talk · contribs) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
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Hi, this article looks to be in a pretty good state! I have a couple questions about images and sources, one MoS nitpick, and a few comments on prose. I also included a number of suggestions for improvement which aren't strictly related to any of the GA criteria (and which, therefore, you're obviously free to ignore - if you'd like me to reorganize my comments to clearly separate them out, let me know). Feel free to reply to comments inline.
Minor MoS layout issue: portal bar should go in the bottom matter, not in "see also", per MOS:ORDER.
Re
WP:RS: the first citation is to a tumblr post,
http://gaymanga.tumblr.com/post/102108686772/i-see-that-the-wish-to-move-away-from-the-term, which set off my spidey sense. I don't think that makes it automatically unreliable, but I wanted to ask: is the author of that blog considered a subject matter expert on bara? For the claim that the term "bara" has historically been used in Japan as a pejorative for gay men
, I wonder if you could find a more obviously authoritative source (e.g. a dictionary)? I can understand using self-published sources like this for some other claims (relating to the history of the term's use on the internet).
Re images: I'm not sure whether it's possible to find any appropriately licensed images to accompany the article, but I think it's worth discussing. Being such a visual subject, it would be really nice to have an image or two in the article. Have you already tried searching for bara artists who have licensed any of their work under CC? At the very least, I bet you could find a photograph or other non-bara depiction of the sort of body type typically depicted in the genre, for use in the "Characteristics" section?
Could you mention the literal meaning of "rose" in the Etymology section? It would help contextualize, for example, the comparison with "pansy". (I realize it's given as a gloss in parentheses in the lead, and referred to obliquely in the Etymology section, but I think it bears an explicit mention in that section)
I don't think the link on "umbrella term" to Hyponymy and hypernymy is helpful. There are some other wikilinks that I think are on the borderline of overlinking (e.g. colloquialism, genre), and a few that are bordering on WP:EGG (e.g. the text "history of homosexuality in Japanese visual art" pointing to Homosexuality in Japan § Pre-Meiji Japan), but this is more a matter of personal taste than correctness.
"Characteristics" as a section heading is a little vague. Do you think something like "Subject matter" or "Content" might be clearer?
The term "bara" has...
per
MOS:WORDSASWORDS I believe bara should be italicised in contexts like this, rather than in quotation marks.
Er, actually, bara should probably be italicised throughout according to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, right? (And same with yaoi?) I don't see any MoS guidance about foreign words as words. Looking at a few articles listed at List of Latin legal terms, it seems like they mostly keep the term italicised and don't apply any further formatting or punctuation. A priori and a posteriori uses quotation marks around italics in the words-as-words context, but doesn't even do so consistently.
The History section has a "See also" hatnote that points to a couple articles in ja wikipedia. What do you think about instead using {{ ill}} to give redlinks to English versions of the articles, along with bluelinks to the Japanese versions? (Same comment on the ja wiki links in the "See also" section at the bottom of the article)
as well as stories based on age-, status-, or power-structured relationships.
The stranded hyphens are a little awkward. What do you think about rewording along the lines of "as well as stories of relationships structured around age, status, or power"?
Tagame's illustrations of muscular, hairy men in G-men (which Tagame co-founded in 1995) have been cited as a catalyst that shifted fashion and aesthetics and among gay men in Japan, away from...
Structure of this sentence is a little off (specifically the parallel structure of "and among gay men").
Jiraiya's has appreared in apparel created by several American fashion brands, including Opening Ceremony[25] and Pretty Snake.
Jiraiya's art? Jiraiya's characters?
Yaoi (やおい, also known as boys' love or BL) is an additional manga genre that focuses on gay male romance and sex. The genre is a distinct category from gay manga...
It wasn't until this point that I really noticed the article was using the term "gay manga" throughout instead of "bara". In this particular instance, it becomes confusing if the reader interprets "gay manga" in its compositional sense (i.e. manga depicting gay characters/relationships), rather than as a technical term equivalent to "bara" as it's used in the west. What do you think about using "bara" instead in this sentence?
Regarding the larger issue of "gay manga" vs. "bara" throughout the article, is the former term used as often as the latter in English sources? And if not, is there a compelling reason to use "gay manga" anyways? I'm no subject matter expert on this, but it does seem a little odd that "bara" is the title of the article, but another term is used in its place in most of the text.
Yaoi has been criticized for depicting stereotypical portrayals of gay men, and for failing to address gay issues. Homophobia, when it is presented at all, is often used as a plot device to heighten drama or show the purity of the leads' love.
Why does this belong in this article, rather than in yaoi? It seems like it would only be relevant here if, in making these criticisms, commentators contrast these aspects with bara. Or if they criticise bara in the same breath for the same reasons.
In certain contexts, gachimuchi (ガチムチ, "muscle-curvy" or "muscle chubby") has represented a crossover between gay manga and yaoi, with considerable overlap of writers, artists, and art styles.
Could you provide a little more context here? e.g.
The hatnote "See also" link to Billy Herrington § Internet meme seems a little weird to me. Nothing in that article relates to the topic of "crossover with yaoi". I think just having the link under the "See also" section is probably sufficient. Alternatively, if you think Billy Herrington is a noteworthy example in the context of bara, I'd mention it somewhere in the text. Colin M ( talk) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
"Literally 'rose', bara is an antiquated slur for gay men.")
Looks great! There's just one small verifiability issue I'd like to take care of, then I'll be happy to pass this.
The term was revived as a pejorative in the late 1990s concurrent with the rise of internet message boards and chat rooms, where heterosexual administrators designated the gay sections of their websites as "bara boards" or "bara chat".[1] The term was subsequently adopted by non-Japanese users of these websites, who believed that bara was the proper designation for the images and artwork being posted on these forums.
The citation for these two sentences ( [1]) doesn't seem to substantially support them. It talks about the fact that bara isn't widely used in Japan, and that its use to describe gay manga is a recent, Western invention. But it doesn't support the explanation of how the western usage originated (heterosexual administrators of message boards and chat rooms, etc.).
In particular I think describing the revival of the term as "pejorative" is contentious enough that it should be cited. (The tumblr source only goes as far as describing the revival of the term as a 'misappropriation') Colin M ( talk) 15:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
[Gengoroh] Tagame explained the background of bara as an antiquated gay pejorative akin to "pansy” and its irrelevance within Japan’s current gay nomenclature. It turned out bara had been adopted as a genre label by confused heterosexuals reading bootleg scans of early gay manga from Bara-Komi on online communities like the popular 2channel. By the time the content was reaching the hands of foreigners as "bara,” Barazoku had long since ceased publication and the Japanese term bara had become a vestige of an earlier generation. – Ishii, Anne; Kidd, Chip; Kolbeins, Graham, eds. (December 18, 2014). Massive: Gay Erotic Manga and the Men Who Make It. Fantagraphics. p33-34
The Internet, as it tends to do, complicated matters. Just as the word was becoming obsolete in Japanese parlance in the early ’90s, “bara” found new life internationally through online message boards. “The organizers and the service providers and the people running these forums were straight, so they called the gay board the ‘bara’ board,” recalls Tagame. “A ‘bara’ chat room or a ‘bara’ board. The Internet conversations that were taking place about gay content were shaped by straight people, and then of course the Internet is how foreigners discovered our work. They saw that this whole section was called ‘bara,’ so that’s how I believe foreigners started to use and appropriate that word. (via Gay Manga!)
1. No free equivalent. Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:22, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The redirect
Mens' Love has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 23 § Mens' Love until a consensus is reached.
Shhhnotsoloud (
talk) 15:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Material from Yaoi was split to Bara (genre) on 21:02, 28 August 2009. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Yaoi. |
![]() | Bara (genre) has been listed as one of the
Art and architecture good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: April 10, 2019. ( Reviewed version). |
![]() | Bara (genre) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
![]() | A fact from Bara (genre) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 28 April 2019 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
Index
|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 120 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bara (genre). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:21, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
I'm adding Template:Update to this article, for two primary reasons:
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Colin M ( talk · contribs) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
|
Hi, this article looks to be in a pretty good state! I have a couple questions about images and sources, one MoS nitpick, and a few comments on prose. I also included a number of suggestions for improvement which aren't strictly related to any of the GA criteria (and which, therefore, you're obviously free to ignore - if you'd like me to reorganize my comments to clearly separate them out, let me know). Feel free to reply to comments inline.
Minor MoS layout issue: portal bar should go in the bottom matter, not in "see also", per MOS:ORDER.
Re
WP:RS: the first citation is to a tumblr post,
http://gaymanga.tumblr.com/post/102108686772/i-see-that-the-wish-to-move-away-from-the-term, which set off my spidey sense. I don't think that makes it automatically unreliable, but I wanted to ask: is the author of that blog considered a subject matter expert on bara? For the claim that the term "bara" has historically been used in Japan as a pejorative for gay men
, I wonder if you could find a more obviously authoritative source (e.g. a dictionary)? I can understand using self-published sources like this for some other claims (relating to the history of the term's use on the internet).
Re images: I'm not sure whether it's possible to find any appropriately licensed images to accompany the article, but I think it's worth discussing. Being such a visual subject, it would be really nice to have an image or two in the article. Have you already tried searching for bara artists who have licensed any of their work under CC? At the very least, I bet you could find a photograph or other non-bara depiction of the sort of body type typically depicted in the genre, for use in the "Characteristics" section?
Could you mention the literal meaning of "rose" in the Etymology section? It would help contextualize, for example, the comparison with "pansy". (I realize it's given as a gloss in parentheses in the lead, and referred to obliquely in the Etymology section, but I think it bears an explicit mention in that section)
I don't think the link on "umbrella term" to Hyponymy and hypernymy is helpful. There are some other wikilinks that I think are on the borderline of overlinking (e.g. colloquialism, genre), and a few that are bordering on WP:EGG (e.g. the text "history of homosexuality in Japanese visual art" pointing to Homosexuality in Japan § Pre-Meiji Japan), but this is more a matter of personal taste than correctness.
"Characteristics" as a section heading is a little vague. Do you think something like "Subject matter" or "Content" might be clearer?
The term "bara" has...
per
MOS:WORDSASWORDS I believe bara should be italicised in contexts like this, rather than in quotation marks.
Er, actually, bara should probably be italicised throughout according to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, right? (And same with yaoi?) I don't see any MoS guidance about foreign words as words. Looking at a few articles listed at List of Latin legal terms, it seems like they mostly keep the term italicised and don't apply any further formatting or punctuation. A priori and a posteriori uses quotation marks around italics in the words-as-words context, but doesn't even do so consistently.
The History section has a "See also" hatnote that points to a couple articles in ja wikipedia. What do you think about instead using {{ ill}} to give redlinks to English versions of the articles, along with bluelinks to the Japanese versions? (Same comment on the ja wiki links in the "See also" section at the bottom of the article)
as well as stories based on age-, status-, or power-structured relationships.
The stranded hyphens are a little awkward. What do you think about rewording along the lines of "as well as stories of relationships structured around age, status, or power"?
Tagame's illustrations of muscular, hairy men in G-men (which Tagame co-founded in 1995) have been cited as a catalyst that shifted fashion and aesthetics and among gay men in Japan, away from...
Structure of this sentence is a little off (specifically the parallel structure of "and among gay men").
Jiraiya's has appreared in apparel created by several American fashion brands, including Opening Ceremony[25] and Pretty Snake.
Jiraiya's art? Jiraiya's characters?
Yaoi (やおい, also known as boys' love or BL) is an additional manga genre that focuses on gay male romance and sex. The genre is a distinct category from gay manga...
It wasn't until this point that I really noticed the article was using the term "gay manga" throughout instead of "bara". In this particular instance, it becomes confusing if the reader interprets "gay manga" in its compositional sense (i.e. manga depicting gay characters/relationships), rather than as a technical term equivalent to "bara" as it's used in the west. What do you think about using "bara" instead in this sentence?
Regarding the larger issue of "gay manga" vs. "bara" throughout the article, is the former term used as often as the latter in English sources? And if not, is there a compelling reason to use "gay manga" anyways? I'm no subject matter expert on this, but it does seem a little odd that "bara" is the title of the article, but another term is used in its place in most of the text.
Yaoi has been criticized for depicting stereotypical portrayals of gay men, and for failing to address gay issues. Homophobia, when it is presented at all, is often used as a plot device to heighten drama or show the purity of the leads' love.
Why does this belong in this article, rather than in yaoi? It seems like it would only be relevant here if, in making these criticisms, commentators contrast these aspects with bara. Or if they criticise bara in the same breath for the same reasons.
In certain contexts, gachimuchi (ガチムチ, "muscle-curvy" or "muscle chubby") has represented a crossover between gay manga and yaoi, with considerable overlap of writers, artists, and art styles.
Could you provide a little more context here? e.g.
The hatnote "See also" link to Billy Herrington § Internet meme seems a little weird to me. Nothing in that article relates to the topic of "crossover with yaoi". I think just having the link under the "See also" section is probably sufficient. Alternatively, if you think Billy Herrington is a noteworthy example in the context of bara, I'd mention it somewhere in the text. Colin M ( talk) 16:11, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
"Literally 'rose', bara is an antiquated slur for gay men.")
Looks great! There's just one small verifiability issue I'd like to take care of, then I'll be happy to pass this.
The term was revived as a pejorative in the late 1990s concurrent with the rise of internet message boards and chat rooms, where heterosexual administrators designated the gay sections of their websites as "bara boards" or "bara chat".[1] The term was subsequently adopted by non-Japanese users of these websites, who believed that bara was the proper designation for the images and artwork being posted on these forums.
The citation for these two sentences ( [1]) doesn't seem to substantially support them. It talks about the fact that bara isn't widely used in Japan, and that its use to describe gay manga is a recent, Western invention. But it doesn't support the explanation of how the western usage originated (heterosexual administrators of message boards and chat rooms, etc.).
In particular I think describing the revival of the term as "pejorative" is contentious enough that it should be cited. (The tumblr source only goes as far as describing the revival of the term as a 'misappropriation') Colin M ( talk) 15:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
[Gengoroh] Tagame explained the background of bara as an antiquated gay pejorative akin to "pansy” and its irrelevance within Japan’s current gay nomenclature. It turned out bara had been adopted as a genre label by confused heterosexuals reading bootleg scans of early gay manga from Bara-Komi on online communities like the popular 2channel. By the time the content was reaching the hands of foreigners as "bara,” Barazoku had long since ceased publication and the Japanese term bara had become a vestige of an earlier generation. – Ishii, Anne; Kidd, Chip; Kolbeins, Graham, eds. (December 18, 2014). Massive: Gay Erotic Manga and the Men Who Make It. Fantagraphics. p33-34
The Internet, as it tends to do, complicated matters. Just as the word was becoming obsolete in Japanese parlance in the early ’90s, “bara” found new life internationally through online message boards. “The organizers and the service providers and the people running these forums were straight, so they called the gay board the ‘bara’ board,” recalls Tagame. “A ‘bara’ chat room or a ‘bara’ board. The Internet conversations that were taking place about gay content were shaped by straight people, and then of course the Internet is how foreigners discovered our work. They saw that this whole section was called ‘bara,’ so that’s how I believe foreigners started to use and appropriate that word. (via Gay Manga!)
1. No free equivalent. Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose.
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:22, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
The redirect
Mens' Love has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 23 § Mens' Love until a consensus is reached.
Shhhnotsoloud (
talk) 15:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)