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book--Rethinking India's oral and classical epics: Draupadī among Rajputs, Muslims ...
By Alf Hiltebeitel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.71.160 ( talk) 05:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
William Crooke
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=QgOHTf76LYG8cZvhoJ4D&ct=result&id=JDfaAAAAMAAJ&dq=ahirs+mothers+of+Alha+and+Udal&q=ahirs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.21.182.12 ( talk) 07:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Please change this name banaphar to banafar Vaibhav Singh banafar ( talk) 17:12, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Some authors say that Alha was half ahir (which is not true) but even if this is true how can whole banafar community become ahir? Banaphars/Banafar are Rajputs only . I am myself a banafar, I am 100% Rajput .My mother is a chauhan Rajput while my father is a banafar Rajput. There is nothing like 49% or 72% Rajput LOL. In past ,Mahil Parihar used to hate Alha so he used to call his mother "low class ahir" out of jealousy. That was pure jealously and I invite everyone to UP, MP and Uttrakhand and see yourself that Banafars are Rajputs. There's nothing like 51% of 73 % Rajput, that's ridiculous. P.S. I don't support any kind of discrimination on basis of caste . Thakur Singh ( talk) 16:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes ofcourse banafar is rajput Prashant592 ( talk) 06:05, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
True and Mahil Parihar was his sort of Mama ( mother's cousin brother). So how come Alha's mother becomes Ahir. No possi Rana of Bharat ( talk) 04:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
What it suggests Alha after death of his mother was taken cared by some other lady, who was working with his father's household. Banaphar is even today a Rajput clan, Ahirs don't have such a surname Rana of Bharat ( talk) 04:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
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Volume - 6 Ksr31 ( talk) 07:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Banaphar is a Rajput clan and they are related to the Rajput warriors alha and udal. Alha's father (dassraj) married to devaki which is the sister of mahil parihar (parihar is also a rajput clan).In 12th century both shows the Rajput bravery in the medieval period. According to legends and folklores that alha was made immortal by goddess sharda and undefeated but his brother udal was died in the war between the great chandel king paramdidev or parmal and the prithiviraj chauhan (king of chauhan dynasty).It is wrote in the alha kand ( referring to poetic works in hindi which consists of a number of ballads describing the brave acts of banaphar heroes alha and udal) that alha and udal are rajput. Bruce nilon ( talk) 04:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
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Ahir to Rajput 2409:4043:2B08:FDDB:392A:5FF1:B898:8FC1 ( talk) 12:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
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Ahir to Rajput Ultimate survi ( talk) 13:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ( Ultimate survi ( talk) 13:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
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Banaphar is a Rajput clan and they are related to the Rajput warriors alha and udal.In 12th century both shows the Rajput bravery in the medieval period. Articles (reliable sources):1. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=pR5uAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATAEegQIBBAB 2. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=ob7UAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATAFegQIAhAB 3. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0-6fAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATACegQICBAB Ultimate survi ( talk) 14:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Because banaphar are not ahir. Banaphar is a rajput clan. They are not mixed clan. Ultimate survi ( talk) 15:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The reliable sources i have put check them there is no point that they are mixed clans.They are not mixed clans. And udal is alha's younger brother. Both are great warriors and show rajput bravery in medieval period Ultimate survi ( talk) 15:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Banaphar is a clan of Rajputs Liger1203 ( talk) 08:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
It is biggest misconception in the history is that every kshatriy and every king were raajput, it is not soo. Rajput is mediaeval terminology.. Historians used common term rajpoot for various kings belonging to ahir, jat, gujar,bhar, gond, pasi kings. Satyitihas ( talk) 21:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Don't promote caste hatred on Wikipedia. In Banaphar case only their mother was Ahir. Other communities like Jat, Gond still have their rulers and part of their community. Historians haven't said anything like this, they have just various tribes formed the community. Those tribes not necessarily mean from the above group. RS6784 ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
All source just point towards their mother being Ahir. RS6784 ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I have rewritten the article a little bit so it makes more sense to those who do not know the names Alha and Udar. I also removed the reference to "Udar's descendant" which was very unclear – no descendant was mentioned in the source, nor in the article about Udar – and to Krishna, who does not seem directly relevant to this article. -- bonadea contributions talk 13:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Alha and Udal are two great warriors of Bundelkhand which belongs to the banaphar community of rajputs.you can see here [1], [2] and these books are not published by any local publisher but by the government of India. And government is for all, so they are not going to publish something with biased views. And mainly , it is written in the Alha Khand that both are Rajputs (kshatriya).
And here are the reliable sources for what I'm saying:- [3], [4] and the link to the books I have given now and above are the books which is written and published by Indian Government. And if somebody wants famous published books then here it is:- [5], [6],and [7]
So please change " is a clan of mixed ahir and rajput origin in india" to "is a clan of rajput origin in india" and " describe ahir bravery " to " describe rajput bravery " or allow me to edit it please (consensus). Eroberar ( talk) 05:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Okay fine please check these government published books:- [8] , [9] and [10] and the link of those government published books are not from British Raj Era all books are of after independence you can check.
And here some more publish books:- 1. [11] 2. [12] 3.check on the 5th line of this link [13] 4. [14] 5. [15]
And if you can understand hindi or an administrator who can understand hindi and try to help then I can clearly proof that banaphar is rajput clan Eroberar ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
I saw that you have removed my edits, did I do anything wrong, tell me, I will correct it because I edited it according to the WP:RS. Sumit banaphar ( talk) 13:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I think I got it what are saying, but Alha Khand [16] by asha gupta is a primary source and totally related to the article so is there any problem with that? Sumit banaphar ( talk) 15:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Ok Fine and thanks Sumit banaphar ( talk) 15:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
@ bonadea:- First of all I didn't make any changes without source,if the source I'm providing is not reliable than administrator revert it, and i ask him a reason for that so I don't think so besides you anyone is finding my edits disruptive and don't tell me what I'm aware of and what I'm not aware of, I already asked you before talk to me respectfully and I ask RegentsPark for review because I want genuine reason from a good faith administrator. Sumit banaphar ( talk) 17:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
@ RegentsPark:Is this book reliable for the changes I want to make? Because the book is published by the government of India, the author is an administrative officer and the book studying about caste,clan, community and following all the rules of WP:RS please check it.
Book:-Communities, Segments, Synonyms, Surnames and Titles
Author:- Kumar Suresh Singh
Publisher:- Anthropological Survey of India Page.no:- page 1876 [18]
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edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
banarfer is only Rajput clan Kshatriya. 2405:204:A682:DDD2:B8EB:937D:FB0A:6408 ( talk) 17:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
This question comes up so often in my watchlist that I actually went to my local library to re-evaluate this in good faith. I read these books in their full, original glory instead of through Google Books' limited page previews. TL;DR: The case that Alha, Udal, and the Banaphars are all mixed Rajput and Ahir is still the strongest.
Alha and Udal are mixed Rajput and Ahir. Hitelbeitel describes how different versions of the epic explain this differently, but the basic gist of it is the same: Alha and Udal's father Dasraj, and another Banaphar named Bachraj, run into two Ahir women named Devi and Birmha and marry them. [1] The context of this story-in-a-story is that the antagonist, Mahil, mentions this to dissuade Rajput leaders from marrying their daughters to our two heroes, so I've seen an argument that Mahil is lying and that the brothers are only Rajput. However, I have yet to find a reference supporting this, and considering how their part-Ahir nature is repeatedly mentioned in the epic, [2] I find this argument hardly convincing.
We know that the Banaphar clan claims to be Rajput, [3] and this makes sense because you'd obviously want to be part of a better caste. The current consensus on Wikipedia is that they're also Ahir because Hitelbeitel (1999) explicitly says so. The reference from Google Books only includes a limited number of pages, but that book actually mentions this multiple times. [4] [5] An editor brought up another reference by Hansen that calls the Banaphars Rajput only, but that reference mentions this in passing as an example of literary texts with inter-caste love and does not elaborate, and is therefore of little value here. [6]
The funny thing is that all this information is already in the article Alha, even though much of it is a copyvio (I'll clean that soon). I must stress that finding "Rajput" next to "Banaphar" and claiming that it proves that the Banaphars are not simultaneously Ahir is very flawed logic. I must also mention that Raj-era sources are generally pretty bad; you might want to read the essay WP:RSCASTE. I tried to look for more references, but couldn't; if you do find a quality reference, let me know.
Pings: RS6784, Gamachuiaaa, Bonadea
References
Dear Ganbaruby! The whole story of them is based on ballad. The point would be if ballad or epic considered as reliable because there is no mention of it in any historical sources except the folkloric ballads as per which two Dachhraj and Bachhraj took women from other community for which they were criticised by the members of their community. RS6784 ( talk) 08:18, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Ganbaruby: Pls find the link : [19] page 465 RS6784 ( talk) 08:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear, It calls their father Dacchraj and Bacchraj as part of one community. RS6784 ( talk) 08:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear bonadea Yes they are mentioned as legendary, but Banaphar is a clan of one particular community and isn't this page deals with Banaphar clan of today. How can we decide background of a community based on a legend? The clan is part of one community. RS6784 ( talk) 05:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby Bonadea Alf book is based on legend not on the status of that clan in last 200 yrs. I think we should atleast allow verification of present situation of the clan from last 200 yrs sources. pls find this on page 311 [20] RS6784 ( talk) 05:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear |Ganbaruby "I'm also struggling to understand your argument. People don't get to cherrypick their heritage; if they were mixed-caste in the past, they're mixed-caste now. Hiltebeitel wrote his book in 1999, which is pretty recent, and we're using it because it's the best source we have so far. Please find a source of equal or better quality." Sorry, but this is not how it works in India especially in a clan based society, it is based on male line descent ( right or wrong is different point of view). Also this particular clan is not only based on two legendary figure, this clan was/is present in other area as well. The real issue is from data to everything all are based on Census and that particular era, The GOI follows it as reference point. If under the name of Raj-era we are going to brush aside simple understanding of a clan then we are imposing our own opinion here. This is why complete restrictions on the use of Raj-era data ( especially for verification in some cases) should be relooked at again. Even most of these writers have quote many things from the same sources in their books. For Mr Alf Hiltebeital, he is talking about a legend which may be true or may not be true not on the clan of a community.
RS6784 ( talk) 06:59, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby and all these writers including Alf, Thomas, Kathyrn etc used word " allegedly" described as..., The clan was considered as part of one community ( yes lower division but part of that community, in India every community has its what they call it as upper and lower divisions, that doesn't mean they aren't part of community) even these writers accept it in their book regarding the bkgd. See we don't have all the three writers here on the talk page but as far as their written works are concerned, they specified the bkgd of the clan. RS6784 ( talk) 07:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby thank you for atleast listening to the others point of view, especially of new editors like me. You have been very open and friendly senior editor here which is very rare case. It would be great if others also follow your style of dealing with things. I am very glad with the friendly conversation I had with you. Coming to the point one addition, Alf works deal with two folkloric heroes of the clan and not with the whole clan.
If I find some thing interesting on the topic then I would definitely share with you.
Regards RS6784 ( talk) 08:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
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Banafar is a Rajput clan. It is not a mixed clan. Please remove this reference of mixed race from the origin and introductory section.
Alha Singh and Udal Singh, the famous generals of Chandel Rajput King Parmardi Dev belonged to Banafar Rajput clan.In the Puranas it is mentioned that mother of Alha Singh and Udal Singh was a Ahir.So,it does not make the whole Banafar clan Ahir in any sense. Abhimanyu200 ( talk) 17:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | The use of the contentious topics procedure has been authorised by the community for pages related to South Asian social groups, including this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned. |
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book--Rethinking India's oral and classical epics: Draupadī among Rajputs, Muslims ...
By Alf Hiltebeitel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.71.160 ( talk) 05:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
William Crooke
http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=QgOHTf76LYG8cZvhoJ4D&ct=result&id=JDfaAAAAMAAJ&dq=ahirs+mothers+of+Alha+and+Udal&q=ahirs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.21.182.12 ( talk) 07:52, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Please change this name banaphar to banafar Vaibhav Singh banafar ( talk) 17:12, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Some authors say that Alha was half ahir (which is not true) but even if this is true how can whole banafar community become ahir? Banaphars/Banafar are Rajputs only . I am myself a banafar, I am 100% Rajput .My mother is a chauhan Rajput while my father is a banafar Rajput. There is nothing like 49% or 72% Rajput LOL. In past ,Mahil Parihar used to hate Alha so he used to call his mother "low class ahir" out of jealousy. That was pure jealously and I invite everyone to UP, MP and Uttrakhand and see yourself that Banafars are Rajputs. There's nothing like 51% of 73 % Rajput, that's ridiculous. P.S. I don't support any kind of discrimination on basis of caste . Thakur Singh ( talk) 16:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes ofcourse banafar is rajput Prashant592 ( talk) 06:05, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
True and Mahil Parihar was his sort of Mama ( mother's cousin brother). So how come Alha's mother becomes Ahir. No possi Rana of Bharat ( talk) 04:46, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
What it suggests Alha after death of his mother was taken cared by some other lady, who was working with his father's household. Banaphar is even today a Rajput clan, Ahirs don't have such a surname Rana of Bharat ( talk) 04:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
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Volume - 6 Ksr31 ( talk) 07:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Banaphar is a Rajput clan and they are related to the Rajput warriors alha and udal. Alha's father (dassraj) married to devaki which is the sister of mahil parihar (parihar is also a rajput clan).In 12th century both shows the Rajput bravery in the medieval period. According to legends and folklores that alha was made immortal by goddess sharda and undefeated but his brother udal was died in the war between the great chandel king paramdidev or parmal and the prithiviraj chauhan (king of chauhan dynasty).It is wrote in the alha kand ( referring to poetic works in hindi which consists of a number of ballads describing the brave acts of banaphar heroes alha and udal) that alha and udal are rajput. Bruce nilon ( talk) 04:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
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Ahir to Rajput 2409:4043:2B08:FDDB:392A:5FF1:B898:8FC1 ( talk) 12:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
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Ahir to Rajput Ultimate survi ( talk) 13:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC) ( Ultimate survi ( talk) 13:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC))
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Banaphar is a Rajput clan and they are related to the Rajput warriors alha and udal.In 12th century both shows the Rajput bravery in the medieval period. Articles (reliable sources):1. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=pR5uAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATAEegQIBBAB 2. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=ob7UAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATAFegQIAhAB 3. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0-6fAAAAMAAJ&q=banaphar+rajput&dq=banaphar+rajput&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIxsqQy7brAhVdwzgGHcedBHc4ChDoATACegQICBAB Ultimate survi ( talk) 14:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Because banaphar are not ahir. Banaphar is a rajput clan. They are not mixed clan. Ultimate survi ( talk) 15:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The reliable sources i have put check them there is no point that they are mixed clans.They are not mixed clans. And udal is alha's younger brother. Both are great warriors and show rajput bravery in medieval period Ultimate survi ( talk) 15:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Banaphar is a clan of Rajputs Liger1203 ( talk) 08:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
It is biggest misconception in the history is that every kshatriy and every king were raajput, it is not soo. Rajput is mediaeval terminology.. Historians used common term rajpoot for various kings belonging to ahir, jat, gujar,bhar, gond, pasi kings. Satyitihas ( talk) 21:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Don't promote caste hatred on Wikipedia. In Banaphar case only their mother was Ahir. Other communities like Jat, Gond still have their rulers and part of their community. Historians haven't said anything like this, they have just various tribes formed the community. Those tribes not necessarily mean from the above group. RS6784 ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
All source just point towards their mother being Ahir. RS6784 ( talk) 12:25, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I have rewritten the article a little bit so it makes more sense to those who do not know the names Alha and Udar. I also removed the reference to "Udar's descendant" which was very unclear – no descendant was mentioned in the source, nor in the article about Udar – and to Krishna, who does not seem directly relevant to this article. -- bonadea contributions talk 13:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Alha and Udal are two great warriors of Bundelkhand which belongs to the banaphar community of rajputs.you can see here [1], [2] and these books are not published by any local publisher but by the government of India. And government is for all, so they are not going to publish something with biased views. And mainly , it is written in the Alha Khand that both are Rajputs (kshatriya).
And here are the reliable sources for what I'm saying:- [3], [4] and the link to the books I have given now and above are the books which is written and published by Indian Government. And if somebody wants famous published books then here it is:- [5], [6],and [7]
So please change " is a clan of mixed ahir and rajput origin in india" to "is a clan of rajput origin in india" and " describe ahir bravery " to " describe rajput bravery " or allow me to edit it please (consensus). Eroberar ( talk) 05:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Okay fine please check these government published books:- [8] , [9] and [10] and the link of those government published books are not from British Raj Era all books are of after independence you can check.
And here some more publish books:- 1. [11] 2. [12] 3.check on the 5th line of this link [13] 4. [14] 5. [15]
And if you can understand hindi or an administrator who can understand hindi and try to help then I can clearly proof that banaphar is rajput clan Eroberar ( talk) 09:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
I saw that you have removed my edits, did I do anything wrong, tell me, I will correct it because I edited it according to the WP:RS. Sumit banaphar ( talk) 13:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I think I got it what are saying, but Alha Khand [16] by asha gupta is a primary source and totally related to the article so is there any problem with that? Sumit banaphar ( talk) 15:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Ok Fine and thanks Sumit banaphar ( talk) 15:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
@ bonadea:- First of all I didn't make any changes without source,if the source I'm providing is not reliable than administrator revert it, and i ask him a reason for that so I don't think so besides you anyone is finding my edits disruptive and don't tell me what I'm aware of and what I'm not aware of, I already asked you before talk to me respectfully and I ask RegentsPark for review because I want genuine reason from a good faith administrator. Sumit banaphar ( talk) 17:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
@ RegentsPark:Is this book reliable for the changes I want to make? Because the book is published by the government of India, the author is an administrative officer and the book studying about caste,clan, community and following all the rules of WP:RS please check it.
Book:-Communities, Segments, Synonyms, Surnames and Titles
Author:- Kumar Suresh Singh
Publisher:- Anthropological Survey of India Page.no:- page 1876 [18]
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
banarfer is only Rajput clan Kshatriya. 2405:204:A682:DDD2:B8EB:937D:FB0A:6408 ( talk) 17:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
This question comes up so often in my watchlist that I actually went to my local library to re-evaluate this in good faith. I read these books in their full, original glory instead of through Google Books' limited page previews. TL;DR: The case that Alha, Udal, and the Banaphars are all mixed Rajput and Ahir is still the strongest.
Alha and Udal are mixed Rajput and Ahir. Hitelbeitel describes how different versions of the epic explain this differently, but the basic gist of it is the same: Alha and Udal's father Dasraj, and another Banaphar named Bachraj, run into two Ahir women named Devi and Birmha and marry them. [1] The context of this story-in-a-story is that the antagonist, Mahil, mentions this to dissuade Rajput leaders from marrying their daughters to our two heroes, so I've seen an argument that Mahil is lying and that the brothers are only Rajput. However, I have yet to find a reference supporting this, and considering how their part-Ahir nature is repeatedly mentioned in the epic, [2] I find this argument hardly convincing.
We know that the Banaphar clan claims to be Rajput, [3] and this makes sense because you'd obviously want to be part of a better caste. The current consensus on Wikipedia is that they're also Ahir because Hitelbeitel (1999) explicitly says so. The reference from Google Books only includes a limited number of pages, but that book actually mentions this multiple times. [4] [5] An editor brought up another reference by Hansen that calls the Banaphars Rajput only, but that reference mentions this in passing as an example of literary texts with inter-caste love and does not elaborate, and is therefore of little value here. [6]
The funny thing is that all this information is already in the article Alha, even though much of it is a copyvio (I'll clean that soon). I must stress that finding "Rajput" next to "Banaphar" and claiming that it proves that the Banaphars are not simultaneously Ahir is very flawed logic. I must also mention that Raj-era sources are generally pretty bad; you might want to read the essay WP:RSCASTE. I tried to look for more references, but couldn't; if you do find a quality reference, let me know.
Pings: RS6784, Gamachuiaaa, Bonadea
References
Dear Ganbaruby! The whole story of them is based on ballad. The point would be if ballad or epic considered as reliable because there is no mention of it in any historical sources except the folkloric ballads as per which two Dachhraj and Bachhraj took women from other community for which they were criticised by the members of their community. RS6784 ( talk) 08:18, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
@ Ganbaruby: Pls find the link : [19] page 465 RS6784 ( talk) 08:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear, It calls their father Dacchraj and Bacchraj as part of one community. RS6784 ( talk) 08:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear bonadea Yes they are mentioned as legendary, but Banaphar is a clan of one particular community and isn't this page deals with Banaphar clan of today. How can we decide background of a community based on a legend? The clan is part of one community. RS6784 ( talk) 05:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby Bonadea Alf book is based on legend not on the status of that clan in last 200 yrs. I think we should atleast allow verification of present situation of the clan from last 200 yrs sources. pls find this on page 311 [20] RS6784 ( talk) 05:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear |Ganbaruby "I'm also struggling to understand your argument. People don't get to cherrypick their heritage; if they were mixed-caste in the past, they're mixed-caste now. Hiltebeitel wrote his book in 1999, which is pretty recent, and we're using it because it's the best source we have so far. Please find a source of equal or better quality." Sorry, but this is not how it works in India especially in a clan based society, it is based on male line descent ( right or wrong is different point of view). Also this particular clan is not only based on two legendary figure, this clan was/is present in other area as well. The real issue is from data to everything all are based on Census and that particular era, The GOI follows it as reference point. If under the name of Raj-era we are going to brush aside simple understanding of a clan then we are imposing our own opinion here. This is why complete restrictions on the use of Raj-era data ( especially for verification in some cases) should be relooked at again. Even most of these writers have quote many things from the same sources in their books. For Mr Alf Hiltebeital, he is talking about a legend which may be true or may not be true not on the clan of a community.
RS6784 ( talk) 06:59, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby and all these writers including Alf, Thomas, Kathyrn etc used word " allegedly" described as..., The clan was considered as part of one community ( yes lower division but part of that community, in India every community has its what they call it as upper and lower divisions, that doesn't mean they aren't part of community) even these writers accept it in their book regarding the bkgd. See we don't have all the three writers here on the talk page but as far as their written works are concerned, they specified the bkgd of the clan. RS6784 ( talk) 07:07, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Dear Ganbaruby thank you for atleast listening to the others point of view, especially of new editors like me. You have been very open and friendly senior editor here which is very rare case. It would be great if others also follow your style of dealing with things. I am very glad with the friendly conversation I had with you. Coming to the point one addition, Alf works deal with two folkloric heroes of the clan and not with the whole clan.
If I find some thing interesting on the topic then I would definitely share with you.
Regards RS6784 ( talk) 08:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
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Banafar is a Rajput clan. It is not a mixed clan. Please remove this reference of mixed race from the origin and introductory section.
Alha Singh and Udal Singh, the famous generals of Chandel Rajput King Parmardi Dev belonged to Banafar Rajput clan.In the Puranas it is mentioned that mother of Alha Singh and Udal Singh was a Ahir.So,it does not make the whole Banafar clan Ahir in any sense. Abhimanyu200 ( talk) 17:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)