This page has a link to the wikipedia article "prima ballerina" which in turn redirects back here. I don't know if that's a problem since I'm not so sure about the way Wikipedia works, but I just wanted to point that out.
the part about ballet terminology originating in france should probably be under ballet rather than ballerina. i'm not sure if im just supposed to change it or not, i'm new to wikipedia.
Ilovemonsters 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Does interest anybody that the correct Italian plural for prima ballerina is:
prime ballerine
and for prima ballerina assoluta is:
prime ballerine assolute
Just to be fair to the original language... Gioland71 ( talk) 21:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I mostly work in the Scandinavian languages; and Swedish, at least, handles loan words well; English does not. "Ballerina" has been made a naturalized citizen, plural "ballerinas;" and, for lack of plural adjectives in English, "prima ballerina" becomes "prima ballerinas", which isn't so bad. While "prima ballerina assolutas" is wrong on all counts, neither you nor I are going to get the rest of the English speaking world to change their wicked ways. While fifty million Frenchman can be wrong — and on the Internet often are — Google remains an effective way of determining usage. Prima ballerina assolutas has 21 "hits" vs. 9 for prime ballerine assolute and prima ballerinas 19,900 to 1,690 for prime ballerine; if one restricts the searches to English the figures become more extreme; 12:1 and 18,400:40. Pity the poor male ballet dancer, with foreign sounding danseur or ballerino to describe what he is! Robert Greer 23:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This is why I haven't changed the entry. It would be silly to try to teach Italian to hordes of English people, but it still pains my ears to hear "pizzas" "calzonis", "gelatos", "ballerinas", "lattes" etc.. It would be fair though to point this out in the article, so that the English speakers are aware that this is not a perfect loan - and won't use it while visiting Florence. In Italian we use "footing" as translation for "jogging", but this must be pointed out in the corresponding entry so that Italians do not sound like idiots if they tell their friends in the UK 'they're going "footing"'. Gioland71 ( talk) 16:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#Plural of prima ballerina/assoluta, but it's received very little traffic, probably because relatively few people have heard of "prima ballerina assoluta" and have never considered an optimal way of pluralising it for an English audience that doesn't necessarily know much or anything about ballet jargon. I still like "prima ballerinas assoluta". I know this will outrage Italians. However, let me make my case. Prima and assoluta are both adjectives, and the only reason we separate them with ballerina is that we're importing the whole term from Italian, and that's the order they use. But if we can say "prima ballerinas", which treats both words as if they were English - and in English we pluralise nouns but not adjectives - then why not apply the same principle to assoluta? If the Italian term happened to be "assoluta prima ballerina", nobody would object to "assoluta prima ballerinas" in English. Merely changing the word order shouldn't have any implications for the spelling of assoluta. Whatever we do, the current "Among her pupils were two Prima Ballerina Assoluta ..." @ Tamara Karsavina seems to me to be the worst of all the options. -- JackofOz ( talk) 22:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I feel like there should be some reference here to the fact that, to dancers, "ballerina" refers specifically to a professional dancer, as opposed to just anyone who studies ballet. Also, in addition to the information on the original rankings it should have the rankings as they are commonly used today (principal, soloist, and corps are the terms I've usually heard). Lastly, I'm pretty sure that "big wenny" is spam- I've never heard that before, either legitimately or as an insult, but the lack of capitalization or punctuation leads me to believe its a joke on someone's part. Actually, I'm not sure about any of the names for professional male ballet dancers; Aren't they just a "ballet dancer"? The only other term I've seen is "danseur"- "ballet man" and "ballet master" seem antiquated. 130.64.136.47 ( talk) 06:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
This article was a mess. It needs to be bigger, better researched and...well, I guess that's it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.48.19.9 ( talk) 05:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
More fundamental than spelling is the question of whether the many claims of prima ballerina assoluta are accurate. What is the evidence? Prove it!
"The only two ballerinas to hold the title Prima ballerina assoluta in the Soviet Union were Galina Ulanova and Maya Plisetskaya". The Soviet Union had nothing to do with the title, and if it did you need to produce chapter and verse. Prima ballerina assoluta was awarded by the Tsar to two great ballerinas of the St. Petersburg Academy of the Imperial Ballet. They were: Thamar Karsavina and Anna Pavlova, both of whom later danced in the Diaghilev Ballets Russes (though Pavlova's own company was perhaps her greatest period). These are the only two I find listed in Cyril Beaumont's A short history of ballet (London 1933), plus, of course, Margot Fonteyn later (for which there is conclusive evidence). Also dubious is the idea that a choreographer like Petipa, however esteemed, would have the authority to make such a decision as suggested for Pierina Legnani.
I challenge you to produce reliable evidence from recognised printed sources for any of the other claims in that section, which I think are all mistaken. The mere fact that Karsavina was not mentioned in the article, and Pavlova specifically denied, increases my scepticism (Beaumont is quite clear that she was awarded the title, and if he was wrong the matter needs to be proved).
If I'm right about all this, there's still room for an article along the lines of "Prima ballerinas and others", though the criteria might be an issue. If you think I'm wrong, then please prove it! See WP:Reliable sources. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 10:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The solution I propose for deciding the status of ballerinas in WP biogs is to choose a standard reference work as the adjudicator in difficult cases. The work I propose is;
The contributors to this volume were of high calibre, and the work contains mini-biogs of all the reasonable candidates for pb or pba. It only remains to decide whether any state or major company used an equivalent, but different title. On examining cases, I would suggest the following:
The grounds for or against pba should be noted on all candidate biogs; any who claimed pba which cannot be verified should be placed in pb category. What this achieves is to give us a framework for making decisions; there will still be difficult cases, but we will no longer be dependent on web-site myths. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 16:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Again, there is more evidence to mudddy the waters. La Scala still use the titles Prima Ballerina and Prima Ballerina Assoluta, but they call them Etoiles. In the case of their Assoluta, they are titled Resident Guest Artist, and so they recognise Alessandra Ferri as a PBA for example and this would also apply to Roberto Bolle, who should correctly be titled a Premier Danseur Noble. Unfortunately, the use of the title Resident Guest Artist to denote the rank of PBA throws up questions about other companies use of similar titles. With the Royal Ballet for example, Carlos Acosta, Roberto Bolle, and Miyako Yoshinda are all ranked as Principal Guest Artists, which again is one step above the other principals and is the equivalent of La Scala's Prima Ballerina Assoluta rank. In contrast to La Scala though, the Paris Opera use Etoile to denote their 'star' dancers, but without inferring that they are PBAs, although perhaps they are regarded as Prima Ballerinas, am not entirely sure. Ultimately, the idea that there is ONE way of defining a Prima Ballerina Assoluta can only be a myth and in reality, each country has adopted its own way of identifying its favourite ballerinas. In Russia they recognise the one and only ultimate living dancer, in the UK they are given the title by Royal appointment, in Italy the title is an active rank within the company structure and yes, in some countries they may just be recognised by general consensus amongst the paying public. 10:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Crazy-dancing ( talk)
This article is trying to be two different things, or more likely different editors have tried to make it two different things. It is the main and only article describing the ranking system in professional ballet ( ballet dancer is a redirect to ballet, which says nothing on the matter), and it is also the article about the specific rank of "ballerina".
There is a second muddle. The article tends towards supporting the claim that "ballerina" means "female principal dancer". For some reason some balletomanes are stubbornly attached to this belief, but it simply won't wash. I can't find a single leading professional company that uses the term ballerina in that way, whether in Russia, France, Italy, Denmark, Germany, the UK or the U.S. This meaning of "ballerina" is obsolete, and it is misleading to record it other than as a former meaning, now superseded. To the man in the street, to the Oxford English Dictionary, and to most people in professional ballet in the 21st century "ballerina" simply means "[any] female ballet dancer". [With the qualification that within professional ballet only it means a professional dancer, but we can put that distinction to one side as we aren't going to have any articles about amateur female ballet dancers]. For example the Royal Ballet has posted a video to YouTube called "A Day in the Life of a Ballerina" which is about a soloist. Wikipedia must describe things as they are, not as some people would like them to be.
What I would propose is that this article should be moved to ballet dancer and reconfigured so that its main thrust is a description of the ranking system for ballet dancers. This would incorporate an explanation of all the uses of the word "ballerina" along with similar information about other ranks. Prima ballerina assoluta should be a separate article, with the content here merged with that of List of prima ballerina assolutas.
Any comments? Luwilt ( talk) 02:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
This is currently a disambiguation page in which the sole two links within it (danseur and ballerina) go to the same page: ballerina. I propose that the contents of ballerina get returned to this page as the title is gender neutral and gender differences could be dealt with within the article. and that the articles danseur and ballerina get redirected here. Thoughts? Dkreisst ( talk) 06:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Can we have more information about ballet dancers, ballet dancing, and ballet training, and less in depth detail about how you're almost certain to end up injured or crippled for life if you try to become a ballet dancer? You'd swear this article was written by some girls mother who wanted to discourage her from trying out for ballet classes by listing all the terrible things that are sure to happen if she does. I'm not sure if they qualify as "weasel words", but what exactly is a "high rate of injury"? How high? What percentage of dancers end up injured? How does that number relate to other occupations and pastimes like sports? Football has a "high rate of injury" as well, but that doesn't mean that most people who engage in it end up crippled for life. I mean, in the modern world, an occupation that saw 1 in 100 workers suffer injuries as a result of the job, it'd be considered extremely dangerous. And it depends on how long you do the job too; I think it should differentiate between amateur ballet dancers and professional ones. I'm going out on a limb and assuming most of the serious injuries, or the ones that "show up later in life" are suffered by professional dancers, not amateur teenage girls taking a few years of ballet classes. A few broken bones, strained muscles and shin splints are nothing a typical high school athlete isn't already risking. Is ballet really so much worse as this article seems to suggest? A mother reading this article after her daughter expressed interest in taking ballet classes is going to be appalled, and say "no", because it makes it sound like ballet dancing is extremely dangerous, and is inevitably going to cause serious, long term, and debilitating injury. which I suspect is a serious exaggeration. And the article says nothing about the positive things about ballet. I'd say training to become a ballet dancer probably has a lot of certain positive effects as well as the potential negative effects. Why else would people bother sending their sons and daughters off to ballet class, even those who have no real intention of ever becoming professional ballet dancers? It keeps you very fit, teaches you dedication and perseverance against difficulty, focus, balance and grace. Yet from reading this article, you could come away with the idea that anyone who allows their kid to enter into ballet training is merely a sadist who really just enjoys the idea of sending them off to suffer needlessly under a brutal training regimen until the inevitable moment when they are crippled for life (like every ballet dancer eventually is, due to the "very high rate of injuries"). .45Colt 05:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
The first paragraph describes what are pretty much expected behaviors of French and Italian, gender-based languages, which are fixated on gender on pretty much all kinds of words. Not sure if "traditionally" is even used correctly here, of if these words should even be stressed as "gender-specific titles". Would a gender-indeterminate ballet dancers be referred to as "danseur", "ballerino" or "danzatore"? For this paragraph to be relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:800:637C:BE33:F154:338A:7708:F555 ( talk) 08:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
We state that one of the obsolete terms for a male dancer is coryphée. Is that true? My knowledge of French is almost non-existent, but that looks to me like a feminine ending. Peter Chastain [¡hablá!] 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
It is time to begin again, out of respect for editors' time. This article should be reduced to content that is tied to sources—that is, a logging editor should prune it back to content that is properly sourced, so the article can begin again as reliable, encyclopedic content. Then, incoming editors will not be faced with this intractable, unwieldy morass, but a simple framework that they can edit forward, adding material from the sources that they have in hand. With this [the article as it appears today]... there is essentially nothing constructive that can be done in any reasonable time frame. Every unsourced didactic statement is a half hour project, to substantiate with a source, correcting nuance or even fact to that source. It is simply not worth any capable expert's time. (One academic's perspective.) 76.141.98.189 ( talk) 20:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has a link to the wikipedia article "prima ballerina" which in turn redirects back here. I don't know if that's a problem since I'm not so sure about the way Wikipedia works, but I just wanted to point that out.
the part about ballet terminology originating in france should probably be under ballet rather than ballerina. i'm not sure if im just supposed to change it or not, i'm new to wikipedia.
Ilovemonsters 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Does interest anybody that the correct Italian plural for prima ballerina is:
prime ballerine
and for prima ballerina assoluta is:
prime ballerine assolute
Just to be fair to the original language... Gioland71 ( talk) 21:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I mostly work in the Scandinavian languages; and Swedish, at least, handles loan words well; English does not. "Ballerina" has been made a naturalized citizen, plural "ballerinas;" and, for lack of plural adjectives in English, "prima ballerina" becomes "prima ballerinas", which isn't so bad. While "prima ballerina assolutas" is wrong on all counts, neither you nor I are going to get the rest of the English speaking world to change their wicked ways. While fifty million Frenchman can be wrong — and on the Internet often are — Google remains an effective way of determining usage. Prima ballerina assolutas has 21 "hits" vs. 9 for prime ballerine assolute and prima ballerinas 19,900 to 1,690 for prime ballerine; if one restricts the searches to English the figures become more extreme; 12:1 and 18,400:40. Pity the poor male ballet dancer, with foreign sounding danseur or ballerino to describe what he is! Robert Greer 23:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
This is why I haven't changed the entry. It would be silly to try to teach Italian to hordes of English people, but it still pains my ears to hear "pizzas" "calzonis", "gelatos", "ballerinas", "lattes" etc.. It would be fair though to point this out in the article, so that the English speakers are aware that this is not a perfect loan - and won't use it while visiting Florence. In Italian we use "footing" as translation for "jogging", but this must be pointed out in the corresponding entry so that Italians do not sound like idiots if they tell their friends in the UK 'they're going "footing"'. Gioland71 ( talk) 16:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#Plural of prima ballerina/assoluta, but it's received very little traffic, probably because relatively few people have heard of "prima ballerina assoluta" and have never considered an optimal way of pluralising it for an English audience that doesn't necessarily know much or anything about ballet jargon. I still like "prima ballerinas assoluta". I know this will outrage Italians. However, let me make my case. Prima and assoluta are both adjectives, and the only reason we separate them with ballerina is that we're importing the whole term from Italian, and that's the order they use. But if we can say "prima ballerinas", which treats both words as if they were English - and in English we pluralise nouns but not adjectives - then why not apply the same principle to assoluta? If the Italian term happened to be "assoluta prima ballerina", nobody would object to "assoluta prima ballerinas" in English. Merely changing the word order shouldn't have any implications for the spelling of assoluta. Whatever we do, the current "Among her pupils were two Prima Ballerina Assoluta ..." @ Tamara Karsavina seems to me to be the worst of all the options. -- JackofOz ( talk) 22:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I feel like there should be some reference here to the fact that, to dancers, "ballerina" refers specifically to a professional dancer, as opposed to just anyone who studies ballet. Also, in addition to the information on the original rankings it should have the rankings as they are commonly used today (principal, soloist, and corps are the terms I've usually heard). Lastly, I'm pretty sure that "big wenny" is spam- I've never heard that before, either legitimately or as an insult, but the lack of capitalization or punctuation leads me to believe its a joke on someone's part. Actually, I'm not sure about any of the names for professional male ballet dancers; Aren't they just a "ballet dancer"? The only other term I've seen is "danseur"- "ballet man" and "ballet master" seem antiquated. 130.64.136.47 ( talk) 06:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
This article was a mess. It needs to be bigger, better researched and...well, I guess that's it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.48.19.9 ( talk) 05:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
More fundamental than spelling is the question of whether the many claims of prima ballerina assoluta are accurate. What is the evidence? Prove it!
"The only two ballerinas to hold the title Prima ballerina assoluta in the Soviet Union were Galina Ulanova and Maya Plisetskaya". The Soviet Union had nothing to do with the title, and if it did you need to produce chapter and verse. Prima ballerina assoluta was awarded by the Tsar to two great ballerinas of the St. Petersburg Academy of the Imperial Ballet. They were: Thamar Karsavina and Anna Pavlova, both of whom later danced in the Diaghilev Ballets Russes (though Pavlova's own company was perhaps her greatest period). These are the only two I find listed in Cyril Beaumont's A short history of ballet (London 1933), plus, of course, Margot Fonteyn later (for which there is conclusive evidence). Also dubious is the idea that a choreographer like Petipa, however esteemed, would have the authority to make such a decision as suggested for Pierina Legnani.
I challenge you to produce reliable evidence from recognised printed sources for any of the other claims in that section, which I think are all mistaken. The mere fact that Karsavina was not mentioned in the article, and Pavlova specifically denied, increases my scepticism (Beaumont is quite clear that she was awarded the title, and if he was wrong the matter needs to be proved).
If I'm right about all this, there's still room for an article along the lines of "Prima ballerinas and others", though the criteria might be an issue. If you think I'm wrong, then please prove it! See WP:Reliable sources. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 10:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The solution I propose for deciding the status of ballerinas in WP biogs is to choose a standard reference work as the adjudicator in difficult cases. The work I propose is;
The contributors to this volume were of high calibre, and the work contains mini-biogs of all the reasonable candidates for pb or pba. It only remains to decide whether any state or major company used an equivalent, but different title. On examining cases, I would suggest the following:
The grounds for or against pba should be noted on all candidate biogs; any who claimed pba which cannot be verified should be placed in pb category. What this achieves is to give us a framework for making decisions; there will still be difficult cases, but we will no longer be dependent on web-site myths. Macdonald-ross ( talk) 16:19, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Again, there is more evidence to mudddy the waters. La Scala still use the titles Prima Ballerina and Prima Ballerina Assoluta, but they call them Etoiles. In the case of their Assoluta, they are titled Resident Guest Artist, and so they recognise Alessandra Ferri as a PBA for example and this would also apply to Roberto Bolle, who should correctly be titled a Premier Danseur Noble. Unfortunately, the use of the title Resident Guest Artist to denote the rank of PBA throws up questions about other companies use of similar titles. With the Royal Ballet for example, Carlos Acosta, Roberto Bolle, and Miyako Yoshinda are all ranked as Principal Guest Artists, which again is one step above the other principals and is the equivalent of La Scala's Prima Ballerina Assoluta rank. In contrast to La Scala though, the Paris Opera use Etoile to denote their 'star' dancers, but without inferring that they are PBAs, although perhaps they are regarded as Prima Ballerinas, am not entirely sure. Ultimately, the idea that there is ONE way of defining a Prima Ballerina Assoluta can only be a myth and in reality, each country has adopted its own way of identifying its favourite ballerinas. In Russia they recognise the one and only ultimate living dancer, in the UK they are given the title by Royal appointment, in Italy the title is an active rank within the company structure and yes, in some countries they may just be recognised by general consensus amongst the paying public. 10:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Crazy-dancing ( talk)
This article is trying to be two different things, or more likely different editors have tried to make it two different things. It is the main and only article describing the ranking system in professional ballet ( ballet dancer is a redirect to ballet, which says nothing on the matter), and it is also the article about the specific rank of "ballerina".
There is a second muddle. The article tends towards supporting the claim that "ballerina" means "female principal dancer". For some reason some balletomanes are stubbornly attached to this belief, but it simply won't wash. I can't find a single leading professional company that uses the term ballerina in that way, whether in Russia, France, Italy, Denmark, Germany, the UK or the U.S. This meaning of "ballerina" is obsolete, and it is misleading to record it other than as a former meaning, now superseded. To the man in the street, to the Oxford English Dictionary, and to most people in professional ballet in the 21st century "ballerina" simply means "[any] female ballet dancer". [With the qualification that within professional ballet only it means a professional dancer, but we can put that distinction to one side as we aren't going to have any articles about amateur female ballet dancers]. For example the Royal Ballet has posted a video to YouTube called "A Day in the Life of a Ballerina" which is about a soloist. Wikipedia must describe things as they are, not as some people would like them to be.
What I would propose is that this article should be moved to ballet dancer and reconfigured so that its main thrust is a description of the ranking system for ballet dancers. This would incorporate an explanation of all the uses of the word "ballerina" along with similar information about other ranks. Prima ballerina assoluta should be a separate article, with the content here merged with that of List of prima ballerina assolutas.
Any comments? Luwilt ( talk) 02:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
This is currently a disambiguation page in which the sole two links within it (danseur and ballerina) go to the same page: ballerina. I propose that the contents of ballerina get returned to this page as the title is gender neutral and gender differences could be dealt with within the article. and that the articles danseur and ballerina get redirected here. Thoughts? Dkreisst ( talk) 06:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Can we have more information about ballet dancers, ballet dancing, and ballet training, and less in depth detail about how you're almost certain to end up injured or crippled for life if you try to become a ballet dancer? You'd swear this article was written by some girls mother who wanted to discourage her from trying out for ballet classes by listing all the terrible things that are sure to happen if she does. I'm not sure if they qualify as "weasel words", but what exactly is a "high rate of injury"? How high? What percentage of dancers end up injured? How does that number relate to other occupations and pastimes like sports? Football has a "high rate of injury" as well, but that doesn't mean that most people who engage in it end up crippled for life. I mean, in the modern world, an occupation that saw 1 in 100 workers suffer injuries as a result of the job, it'd be considered extremely dangerous. And it depends on how long you do the job too; I think it should differentiate between amateur ballet dancers and professional ones. I'm going out on a limb and assuming most of the serious injuries, or the ones that "show up later in life" are suffered by professional dancers, not amateur teenage girls taking a few years of ballet classes. A few broken bones, strained muscles and shin splints are nothing a typical high school athlete isn't already risking. Is ballet really so much worse as this article seems to suggest? A mother reading this article after her daughter expressed interest in taking ballet classes is going to be appalled, and say "no", because it makes it sound like ballet dancing is extremely dangerous, and is inevitably going to cause serious, long term, and debilitating injury. which I suspect is a serious exaggeration. And the article says nothing about the positive things about ballet. I'd say training to become a ballet dancer probably has a lot of certain positive effects as well as the potential negative effects. Why else would people bother sending their sons and daughters off to ballet class, even those who have no real intention of ever becoming professional ballet dancers? It keeps you very fit, teaches you dedication and perseverance against difficulty, focus, balance and grace. Yet from reading this article, you could come away with the idea that anyone who allows their kid to enter into ballet training is merely a sadist who really just enjoys the idea of sending them off to suffer needlessly under a brutal training regimen until the inevitable moment when they are crippled for life (like every ballet dancer eventually is, due to the "very high rate of injuries"). .45Colt 05:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
The first paragraph describes what are pretty much expected behaviors of French and Italian, gender-based languages, which are fixated on gender on pretty much all kinds of words. Not sure if "traditionally" is even used correctly here, of if these words should even be stressed as "gender-specific titles". Would a gender-indeterminate ballet dancers be referred to as "danseur", "ballerino" or "danzatore"? For this paragraph to be relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:800:637C:BE33:F154:338A:7708:F555 ( talk) 08:34, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
We state that one of the obsolete terms for a male dancer is coryphée. Is that true? My knowledge of French is almost non-existent, but that looks to me like a feminine ending. Peter Chastain [¡hablá!] 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
It is time to begin again, out of respect for editors' time. This article should be reduced to content that is tied to sources—that is, a logging editor should prune it back to content that is properly sourced, so the article can begin again as reliable, encyclopedic content. Then, incoming editors will not be faced with this intractable, unwieldy morass, but a simple framework that they can edit forward, adding material from the sources that they have in hand. With this [the article as it appears today]... there is essentially nothing constructive that can be done in any reasonable time frame. Every unsourced didactic statement is a half hour project, to substantiate with a source, correcting nuance or even fact to that source. It is simply not worth any capable expert's time. (One academic's perspective.) 76.141.98.189 ( talk) 20:02, 26 December 2023 (UTC)