This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
(For others: you'll just get to see a little sample of someone 'speaking bare Bajan' as the old folks used to say.... Question: Dis is for ah next Bajan- I cyah t'ink of dis one word... Iz- de word when someone is crossed or like upset and they're pouting wid dey 'mout up in de air'.... Bajans have a word for it, but ah only able to t'ink of de Trini word... Which I think is "Turn-up yuh face", or "Screw-face" but, ah trying to think back and I think de Trini word had a predecessor too. Iz tough sometime to remember some of dese old words nowadays yea, since soo much of de new words comin' into de Barbados lingo from down Trinidad, Jamaica or Guyana. CaribDigita 04:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
ANNSA: I tink it is wen somebody does be 'cruel' but i ain too sure bossman. safe?
A
request for comment was added for this article, regarding the disputed inclusion of the extensive list of vocabulary.
Please comment below. Thank you.-- Hús ö nd 00:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
So what's the problem? Bajan is not actually a whole other language, but the usage and sentence structure are somewhat varied and continue to evolve due to the multi-cultural influences like Hindi which continue to add terms like "Tabanca", etc. In the last 3-4 years. This article tells a person for example if they were to goto Barbados exactly what are hearing and how they too could speak or understand the same dialect which may seem- like a slang of English because it isn't a whole language. I guess there's a Wikipedia bias towards only going indepth with Romance languages instead? CaribDigita 02:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. I'm personally am leaving (opting out) of this discussion, I'm more focused on using my energy to do other things.
Just to be over with, I suggest that perhaps this information be transfered to-
Would there be any objection from anyone about the move of this content to there instead? Or another alternative? CaribDigita 18:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The Bias is there, so you just come to learn to accept it, and live with it. It has been decided that you shouldn't add Bajan dialect words to wikipedia even though you can find dialect lists elsewhere in other language article. So small hint- don't waste your time re-recreating a dialect list here. Just a word of advice because if you recreate the dialect list here it will be deleted. CaribDigita 13:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed and that's why I de-linked Wikipedia from all of work and suggested everyone do the same. If this was a white country this would be handled a LOT differently on Wikipedia. This minstrelization of the language is disgrace and speaks more to the inbred trash controlling wikipedia entries rather than anything factual about Bajan creole. It was discussed at the linguists conference and we are writing a public letter to Wikipedia. Doubt they'll do anything about it, but others will see what they are really about. Disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 ( talk) 17:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
They told me to contact a member of their company in Hawaii. According to them they classified "Bajan" a long time ago and the lady is "pretty passionate" about people in foreign places being un-represented linguistically. CaribDigita ( talk) 15:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Please, try to read a bit more about what a Creole language is and what a dialect of a language is. There are some Creole languages that are called “dialect” by its speakers ( Bajan, Bahamian, Forro), but they are not classified as dialects of the respective lexifier language. Ten Islands ( talk) 20:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
No person that goes to Barbados picks up the dialect in a day. Don't flatter yourself, you were probably being made fun of. Rightfully so, if you think you could pick up a language in a day. How British of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 ( talk) 17:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any sourced material that talks about how music influences how Bajan has transformed over time?
Two music songs that quickly come to mind- which may have influenced the lingo. The Calypso song with the line"wax-palax, bruggadown-brax" (Seen here. And the cricket song "Archie". Which has the line "Archie brek dem up". In the case of the Archie song, in Bajan dialect you can now call someone that destroys things an "Archie Brek 'em up". CaribDigita ( talk)
Wouldn't "African words in Bajan" actually fall more under the more archaic Barbadian English language instead? Barbadian English has a far more African dynamic than today's Bajan Dialect. I think Barbadian English language appears to fall more under the time of the Bussa slave revolt.
An article with Barbadian English [1] CaribDigita ( talk) 10:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay this I think will be Interesting. Gwan - (or "goin' on"). Do others here think this word is Bajan? I would say it is Jamaican. E.g. I don't think there any songs by RPB, Mac Fingal, Gabby, etc. I'm trying to think of even one where Alison Hinds, T.C., Bumba etc. Have used this term and can't come up with any. Have any of these or other prominent artists used this ever? So, I'm proposing a lil' poll to find a consensus on "gwan". CaribDigita ( talk) 02:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted a few edits now which I believe to have been made in good faith? However they are questionable if it is Bajan. Today, some words have come into familiar usage in Barbados however they are truly of another culture. "Gwan" (Go on), "Fi" (For), "Me na" (Me not/I don't), etc. These specific words are not truly Bajan. Certain Bajan authors over the years have helped to standardised the Bajan dialect. People like Austin Clarke, Kamau Brathwaite, Frank Collymore, Warren Alleyne, etc. "Fi" doesn't really have a history in Barbados based on what I've read over the years. The usual word you'll see is "fuh" such as in the Bajan folksong said by all of the newly emancipated slaves across Barbados in the early 1800s...
"Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin (Queen Victoria). De Queen come from England to set we free Now Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin". [2]
Also in the Bajan poem by Bruce St. John which compares Bajan to Barbadian cooking lingo...
" We' language limit? Who language en limit? Evah language Like a big pot o' Bajan soup: Pice o' yam, piece o' potato, T'ree dumplin', two eddoe, One beet, two carrot, Piece o' pig-tail, piece o' beef Pinch o' salt, dus' o' pepper, An' doan' fuget okra To add to de flavour. Boil up, cook up, eat up An' yuh still wan' rice?" [3]
Gwan. Never really had a history in Barbados. It is close to the Bajan word "wan" (as in "want") Example: "I wan' some of dah."(I want some of that.) Now if you listen to Reggae (Esp. from Jamaica) you'll hear "Gwan" a lot but, it doesn't really have a history in Barbados or Bajan. It is primarily a fairly recent subculture. E.g. a recent article in the Barbados newspaper about the Rastafari movement asking for more acceptance in Barbados.
African Crossroads - Conscience of a nation
CaribDigita ( talk) 02:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to be written in a "popular" tone that is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Wikipedia articles on language varieties, languages, dialects, etc. should cite academic and scholarly sources and should not be based on "popular opinion" or "popular knowledge". The classification of a speech variety as a creole language, by the way, has nothing to do with how easily it can be understood by a speaker of the lexifier language (in this case, English), but rather with the origin of the language. In this regard, Bajan is undeniably a creole language. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 18:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Why was Bajan moved to Barbadian English? (I do understand why it was moved at all.) Creole languages aren't generally considered dialects of English, which is waht the current title implies. Compare Jamaican Patois and Jamaican English, which are two separate articels about two separate things. I'm assuming this is also the case with Bajan creole and Barbadian English. - BilCat ( talk) 10:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Web pages about buildings generally can't be used as references for linguistic information. The first line of the article, "Bajan is an English-based creole language", is cited directly from a source, not WP or a page about a building. Anyway, you win. You've exhausted my patience with your ability to ignore cited evidence in favor of rap lyrics and building websites. I'm moving on. - BilCat ( talk) 14:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm coming into this as somewhat of an outsider to the discussion. The situation with Bajan/Barbadian Creole is somewhat complex compared to other Caribbean varieties because it is closer to "Standard English" than Jamaican Creole such that Le Page (in the preface to Isle de France Creole: Affinities and origins, 1982) argues that this must be because there was a higher proportion of whites to blacks in Barbados during its formative years; Ian Hancock, in a review of The Early Stages of Creolization (1995) says it is "wiser to regard Bajan as a 'linguistic system' that includes a creole component in its makeup—but not an extensive one..." Works on this variety (such as the chapter by Linda Fields in ESC) seem to consistently assume that it was historically more creolized in the past.
Sociologically, English and Bajan/Barbadian Creole are considered separate as this book indicates (I know, it's not a linguistics book, but it's still telling about speaker attitudes). Recently, Gerard van Herk (in Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean, 2003) argues (or suggests, I haven't looked at it) that Bajan/Barbadian Creole is comprised of a post-creole speech continuum so that there is no sharp boundary between creole forms and English forms. This contrasts the the traditional view that the creole is separate from the standard like Haitian Creole is (something that the book linked to above may be assuming).
I'm also in favor of having Bajan be the disambiguation with this article being Bajan (language). As far as I've seen, "Bajan" is the more common term but I'm not sure if instances of "Barbadian English" (which are rarer either way) refer to varieties considered English dialects or if such terminology indicates an assumption that other authors don't. I'm not sure what to do with Barbadian English. If we can't establish that it's separate from Standard English as it's spoken in Barbados (that is, the result of second language interference from Bajan speakers attempting to speak Standard English) then we might as well have it redirected to here until further notice. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 04:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Roy (1986) underling that the substrate English of Barbados was not necessarily a uniform standard, rather it was made up of different varieties, spoken by those who became indentured servants (Irish, Scotch, Welsh, or British) and had <<few prospects in British society, as well as those who had been convicted of petty offenses or kidnapped into servitude>> (143). The most interesting phenomenon related to the Bajan basilectal variety is that is seems to have vanished in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries: In the map created by Alleyne (1980: 26) decreolized dialects are those of Anguilla, the Bahamas, Barbados, The Caymans, Tobago, Trinidad, and the Turks and Caicos Islands.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Among the more extensively treated creoles of the Caribbean are Jamaican Creole (cf. Le Page and DeCamp 1960; Cassidy 1961; Bailey 1966), Guyanese Creole (Bickerton 1975) and Belizean Creole )Daley 1979), all of which are decreolizing in varying degrees. Some of the anglophone territories in the Caribbean have local basilect forms which have so few creole elements as to be considered more dialects of English than creoles; this is the case with Bajan, as the vernacular of Barbados is called.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Again, as I mentioned above, articles about languages should not be based on popular or otherwise non-scientific judgements, assertions or literature. Unfortunately, people often forget that linguistics is just as much a science, requiring investigation, experimentation, evidence and proof, just like any other science. You cannot simply go onto Big Bang and write "according to Britney Spears, the Big Bang never happened." Even if a politician states that, you can't write it as fact, merely as something they've said. Similarly, the Barbados government website is not a reliable source about the linguistic status of Bajan, it is not a linguist or a linguistic study, it is completely non-scientific. Neither is a page about a building a reliable source. All reliable scientific sources consider Bajan a creole, full stop. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:43, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 23:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 18:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Barbados by Locals™ - Dominoes at Rum Shop The two most difficult spots to understand is where he says 1) "I would describe a rumshop in the sense- whereas like, a bar overseas. You know you go in a bar overseas, right? because I've been to Canada on more than one occasion." and 2) "You drink some drinks and you listen 'a little music. Up by me we do it. You know? We cook some food, drink some drinks, and listen to a little music... "
Other peculiarities is there is also a tendency of metathesis in Bajan. Such as "new brand car" instead of "brand new car". Or referring to a certain airline "Jetblue" as blue jet on occasion. CaribDigita ( talk) 22:18, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
1) Why did you delete my posting on this talkpage? 2) Those are examples of Barbadians speaking standard English, or of acrolectal Bajan. What language do you think Jamaican ambassadors to English-speaking countries speak in diplomacy? If you were to use that as an example of "Jamaican Creole" to argue that it is not very different from Standard English, clearly you'd convince quite a few people, but that's extremely misleading. Please see Creole continuum. Also, Frank Collymore was not a linguist, by the way - just because you wrote a book commenting on language does not make you a linguist; linguistics is a science, and linguists are scientists, not just popular writers. I have a feeling you're not a linguist; you could write 20 books on Bajan and still not be a linguist. "I's guh church pun Sunduh", an example taken from this page, is clearly not "dialectal" English; Bajan is a creole. Enough academic (read: not Frank Collymore or the Barbados government, but linguists who went to university and studied linguistics and have done research before and have established credentials as scientists) sources agree on this to satisfy WP:RS and other relevant Wikipedia policies, so regardless of your opinions there is no way this article can be changed unless you change academic consensus. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 08:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I have long since given up on the subject. However, it's important to note that something "resembling" a creole language also doesn't make it a Creole. It must have gone through- an actual Creolisation process to be a creole language. CaribDigita ( talk) 02:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Interesting show. A parent--swap type programme by the BBC where rebellious British teens are raised by "stricter" Barbadian parents for one week. Shows many people in Barbados speaking in accent.
CaribDigita ( talk) 00:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I hear what you're saying but even the YouTube example you give isn't all that cryptic and IMHO isn't really anymore cryptic than the examples I outlined above which you seem to say are more like Standard English. That is reality T.V. so it isn't really played up. Infact in some parts where they are speaking in Bajan slang (like near the end of part 4 where Andrea talks about the clothes "appearing to look crab mashed" they went over it in music since non Barbadians wont know that "crab mashed" means a wrinkled garment not properly ironed. Anyway, see below of a small transcript I made of the first 2:30 from the Bajan example you outlined.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bajan Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bajan Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I understand the categorization as a Creole language (even though idk why linguists couldn’t just come up with a less confusing name for the category) but categorization as a Creole language doesn’t mean the name of the language should be changed when the ppl who speak it haven’t changed it. I noticed this was also done to Jamaican Patois as well. Bajans refer the language as Bajan Dialect or Bajan not Creole not to mention the confusion with languages like the various french creoles who’ve used the term since way before the category existed as the term has a cultural significance in the places those languages are spoken. I think the page name is highly misleading as most Bajans refer to the language as Bajan Dialect. Corosoul ( talk) 23:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
(For others: you'll just get to see a little sample of someone 'speaking bare Bajan' as the old folks used to say.... Question: Dis is for ah next Bajan- I cyah t'ink of dis one word... Iz- de word when someone is crossed or like upset and they're pouting wid dey 'mout up in de air'.... Bajans have a word for it, but ah only able to t'ink of de Trini word... Which I think is "Turn-up yuh face", or "Screw-face" but, ah trying to think back and I think de Trini word had a predecessor too. Iz tough sometime to remember some of dese old words nowadays yea, since soo much of de new words comin' into de Barbados lingo from down Trinidad, Jamaica or Guyana. CaribDigita 04:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
ANNSA: I tink it is wen somebody does be 'cruel' but i ain too sure bossman. safe?
A
request for comment was added for this article, regarding the disputed inclusion of the extensive list of vocabulary.
Please comment below. Thank you.-- Hús ö nd 00:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
So what's the problem? Bajan is not actually a whole other language, but the usage and sentence structure are somewhat varied and continue to evolve due to the multi-cultural influences like Hindi which continue to add terms like "Tabanca", etc. In the last 3-4 years. This article tells a person for example if they were to goto Barbados exactly what are hearing and how they too could speak or understand the same dialect which may seem- like a slang of English because it isn't a whole language. I guess there's a Wikipedia bias towards only going indepth with Romance languages instead? CaribDigita 02:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. I'm personally am leaving (opting out) of this discussion, I'm more focused on using my energy to do other things.
Just to be over with, I suggest that perhaps this information be transfered to-
Would there be any objection from anyone about the move of this content to there instead? Or another alternative? CaribDigita 18:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
The Bias is there, so you just come to learn to accept it, and live with it. It has been decided that you shouldn't add Bajan dialect words to wikipedia even though you can find dialect lists elsewhere in other language article. So small hint- don't waste your time re-recreating a dialect list here. Just a word of advice because if you recreate the dialect list here it will be deleted. CaribDigita 13:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I noticed and that's why I de-linked Wikipedia from all of work and suggested everyone do the same. If this was a white country this would be handled a LOT differently on Wikipedia. This minstrelization of the language is disgrace and speaks more to the inbred trash controlling wikipedia entries rather than anything factual about Bajan creole. It was discussed at the linguists conference and we are writing a public letter to Wikipedia. Doubt they'll do anything about it, but others will see what they are really about. Disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 ( talk) 17:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
They told me to contact a member of their company in Hawaii. According to them they classified "Bajan" a long time ago and the lady is "pretty passionate" about people in foreign places being un-represented linguistically. CaribDigita ( talk) 15:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Please, try to read a bit more about what a Creole language is and what a dialect of a language is. There are some Creole languages that are called “dialect” by its speakers ( Bajan, Bahamian, Forro), but they are not classified as dialects of the respective lexifier language. Ten Islands ( talk) 20:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
No person that goes to Barbados picks up the dialect in a day. Don't flatter yourself, you were probably being made fun of. Rightfully so, if you think you could pick up a language in a day. How British of you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.206.126 ( talk) 17:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any sourced material that talks about how music influences how Bajan has transformed over time?
Two music songs that quickly come to mind- which may have influenced the lingo. The Calypso song with the line"wax-palax, bruggadown-brax" (Seen here. And the cricket song "Archie". Which has the line "Archie brek dem up". In the case of the Archie song, in Bajan dialect you can now call someone that destroys things an "Archie Brek 'em up". CaribDigita ( talk)
Wouldn't "African words in Bajan" actually fall more under the more archaic Barbadian English language instead? Barbadian English has a far more African dynamic than today's Bajan Dialect. I think Barbadian English language appears to fall more under the time of the Bussa slave revolt.
An article with Barbadian English [1] CaribDigita ( talk) 10:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay this I think will be Interesting. Gwan - (or "goin' on"). Do others here think this word is Bajan? I would say it is Jamaican. E.g. I don't think there any songs by RPB, Mac Fingal, Gabby, etc. I'm trying to think of even one where Alison Hinds, T.C., Bumba etc. Have used this term and can't come up with any. Have any of these or other prominent artists used this ever? So, I'm proposing a lil' poll to find a consensus on "gwan". CaribDigita ( talk) 02:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted a few edits now which I believe to have been made in good faith? However they are questionable if it is Bajan. Today, some words have come into familiar usage in Barbados however they are truly of another culture. "Gwan" (Go on), "Fi" (For), "Me na" (Me not/I don't), etc. These specific words are not truly Bajan. Certain Bajan authors over the years have helped to standardised the Bajan dialect. People like Austin Clarke, Kamau Brathwaite, Frank Collymore, Warren Alleyne, etc. "Fi" doesn't really have a history in Barbados based on what I've read over the years. The usual word you'll see is "fuh" such as in the Bajan folksong said by all of the newly emancipated slaves across Barbados in the early 1800s...
"Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin (Queen Victoria). De Queen come from England to set we free Now Lick an Lock-up Done Wid, Hurray fuh Jin-Jin". [2]
Also in the Bajan poem by Bruce St. John which compares Bajan to Barbadian cooking lingo...
" We' language limit? Who language en limit? Evah language Like a big pot o' Bajan soup: Pice o' yam, piece o' potato, T'ree dumplin', two eddoe, One beet, two carrot, Piece o' pig-tail, piece o' beef Pinch o' salt, dus' o' pepper, An' doan' fuget okra To add to de flavour. Boil up, cook up, eat up An' yuh still wan' rice?" [3]
Gwan. Never really had a history in Barbados. It is close to the Bajan word "wan" (as in "want") Example: "I wan' some of dah."(I want some of that.) Now if you listen to Reggae (Esp. from Jamaica) you'll hear "Gwan" a lot but, it doesn't really have a history in Barbados or Bajan. It is primarily a fairly recent subculture. E.g. a recent article in the Barbados newspaper about the Rastafari movement asking for more acceptance in Barbados.
African Crossroads - Conscience of a nation
CaribDigita ( talk) 02:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
This article seems to be written in a "popular" tone that is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Wikipedia articles on language varieties, languages, dialects, etc. should cite academic and scholarly sources and should not be based on "popular opinion" or "popular knowledge". The classification of a speech variety as a creole language, by the way, has nothing to do with how easily it can be understood by a speaker of the lexifier language (in this case, English), but rather with the origin of the language. In this regard, Bajan is undeniably a creole language. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 18:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Why was Bajan moved to Barbadian English? (I do understand why it was moved at all.) Creole languages aren't generally considered dialects of English, which is waht the current title implies. Compare Jamaican Patois and Jamaican English, which are two separate articels about two separate things. I'm assuming this is also the case with Bajan creole and Barbadian English. - BilCat ( talk) 10:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Web pages about buildings generally can't be used as references for linguistic information. The first line of the article, "Bajan is an English-based creole language", is cited directly from a source, not WP or a page about a building. Anyway, you win. You've exhausted my patience with your ability to ignore cited evidence in favor of rap lyrics and building websites. I'm moving on. - BilCat ( talk) 14:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm coming into this as somewhat of an outsider to the discussion. The situation with Bajan/Barbadian Creole is somewhat complex compared to other Caribbean varieties because it is closer to "Standard English" than Jamaican Creole such that Le Page (in the preface to Isle de France Creole: Affinities and origins, 1982) argues that this must be because there was a higher proportion of whites to blacks in Barbados during its formative years; Ian Hancock, in a review of The Early Stages of Creolization (1995) says it is "wiser to regard Bajan as a 'linguistic system' that includes a creole component in its makeup—but not an extensive one..." Works on this variety (such as the chapter by Linda Fields in ESC) seem to consistently assume that it was historically more creolized in the past.
Sociologically, English and Bajan/Barbadian Creole are considered separate as this book indicates (I know, it's not a linguistics book, but it's still telling about speaker attitudes). Recently, Gerard van Herk (in Contact Englishes of the Eastern Caribbean, 2003) argues (or suggests, I haven't looked at it) that Bajan/Barbadian Creole is comprised of a post-creole speech continuum so that there is no sharp boundary between creole forms and English forms. This contrasts the the traditional view that the creole is separate from the standard like Haitian Creole is (something that the book linked to above may be assuming).
I'm also in favor of having Bajan be the disambiguation with this article being Bajan (language). As far as I've seen, "Bajan" is the more common term but I'm not sure if instances of "Barbadian English" (which are rarer either way) refer to varieties considered English dialects or if such terminology indicates an assumption that other authors don't. I'm not sure what to do with Barbadian English. If we can't establish that it's separate from Standard English as it's spoken in Barbados (that is, the result of second language interference from Bajan speakers attempting to speak Standard English) then we might as well have it redirected to here until further notice. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 04:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Roy (1986) underling that the substrate English of Barbados was not necessarily a uniform standard, rather it was made up of different varieties, spoken by those who became indentured servants (Irish, Scotch, Welsh, or British) and had <<few prospects in British society, as well as those who had been convicted of petty offenses or kidnapped into servitude>> (143). The most interesting phenomenon related to the Bajan basilectal variety is that is seems to have vanished in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries: In the map created by Alleyne (1980: 26) decreolized dialects are those of Anguilla, the Bahamas, Barbados, The Caymans, Tobago, Trinidad, and the Turks and Caicos Islands.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Among the more extensively treated creoles of the Caribbean are Jamaican Creole (cf. Le Page and DeCamp 1960; Cassidy 1961; Bailey 1966), Guyanese Creole (Bickerton 1975) and Belizean Creole )Daley 1979), all of which are decreolizing in varying degrees. Some of the anglophone territories in the Caribbean have local basilect forms which have so few creole elements as to be considered more dialects of English than creoles; this is the case with Bajan, as the vernacular of Barbados is called.
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=
, |separator=
, |trans_title=
, |laysummary=
, |trans_chapter=
, |chapterurl=
, |month=
, and |lastauthoramp=
(
help)Again, as I mentioned above, articles about languages should not be based on popular or otherwise non-scientific judgements, assertions or literature. Unfortunately, people often forget that linguistics is just as much a science, requiring investigation, experimentation, evidence and proof, just like any other science. You cannot simply go onto Big Bang and write "according to Britney Spears, the Big Bang never happened." Even if a politician states that, you can't write it as fact, merely as something they've said. Similarly, the Barbados government website is not a reliable source about the linguistic status of Bajan, it is not a linguist or a linguistic study, it is completely non-scientific. Neither is a page about a building a reliable source. All reliable scientific sources consider Bajan a creole, full stop. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:43, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 23:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
CaribDigita ( talk) 18:36, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Barbados by Locals™ - Dominoes at Rum Shop The two most difficult spots to understand is where he says 1) "I would describe a rumshop in the sense- whereas like, a bar overseas. You know you go in a bar overseas, right? because I've been to Canada on more than one occasion." and 2) "You drink some drinks and you listen 'a little music. Up by me we do it. You know? We cook some food, drink some drinks, and listen to a little music... "
Other peculiarities is there is also a tendency of metathesis in Bajan. Such as "new brand car" instead of "brand new car". Or referring to a certain airline "Jetblue" as blue jet on occasion. CaribDigita ( talk) 22:18, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
1) Why did you delete my posting on this talkpage? 2) Those are examples of Barbadians speaking standard English, or of acrolectal Bajan. What language do you think Jamaican ambassadors to English-speaking countries speak in diplomacy? If you were to use that as an example of "Jamaican Creole" to argue that it is not very different from Standard English, clearly you'd convince quite a few people, but that's extremely misleading. Please see Creole continuum. Also, Frank Collymore was not a linguist, by the way - just because you wrote a book commenting on language does not make you a linguist; linguistics is a science, and linguists are scientists, not just popular writers. I have a feeling you're not a linguist; you could write 20 books on Bajan and still not be a linguist. "I's guh church pun Sunduh", an example taken from this page, is clearly not "dialectal" English; Bajan is a creole. Enough academic (read: not Frank Collymore or the Barbados government, but linguists who went to university and studied linguistics and have done research before and have established credentials as scientists) sources agree on this to satisfy WP:RS and other relevant Wikipedia policies, so regardless of your opinions there is no way this article can be changed unless you change academic consensus. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 08:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I have long since given up on the subject. However, it's important to note that something "resembling" a creole language also doesn't make it a Creole. It must have gone through- an actual Creolisation process to be a creole language. CaribDigita ( talk) 02:09, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Interesting show. A parent--swap type programme by the BBC where rebellious British teens are raised by "stricter" Barbadian parents for one week. Shows many people in Barbados speaking in accent.
CaribDigita ( talk) 00:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I hear what you're saying but even the YouTube example you give isn't all that cryptic and IMHO isn't really anymore cryptic than the examples I outlined above which you seem to say are more like Standard English. That is reality T.V. so it isn't really played up. Infact in some parts where they are speaking in Bajan slang (like near the end of part 4 where Andrea talks about the clothes "appearing to look crab mashed" they went over it in music since non Barbadians wont know that "crab mashed" means a wrinkled garment not properly ironed. Anyway, see below of a small transcript I made of the first 2:30 from the Bajan example you outlined.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bajan Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bajan Creole. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:43, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I understand the categorization as a Creole language (even though idk why linguists couldn’t just come up with a less confusing name for the category) but categorization as a Creole language doesn’t mean the name of the language should be changed when the ppl who speak it haven’t changed it. I noticed this was also done to Jamaican Patois as well. Bajans refer the language as Bajan Dialect or Bajan not Creole not to mention the confusion with languages like the various french creoles who’ve used the term since way before the category existed as the term has a cultural significance in the places those languages are spoken. I think the page name is highly misleading as most Bajans refer to the language as Bajan Dialect. Corosoul ( talk) 23:16, 11 April 2022 (UTC)