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User Jeff3000 is constantly reverting a citation on war from Baha'i sources in this section for no apparent reason. If you have a problem please state it in a civilized manner here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illuminator123 ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Show me one reputable third party source talking about this while summarizing the religion. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
For the establishment of a lasting peace (Greater Peace) and the purging of the 'overwhelming Corruptions' it is necessary that all the people of the world universally unite under the Baha'i Faith. According to the Baha'i leader `Abdu'l-Bahá, conquests and war can be a righteous means of establishing peace…
This edit [1] doesn't belong in the second paragraph. It's wordy, distracting, and covered elsewhere. Introductions should be crisp, tight, and direct. Please follow the editing guidelines on lead sections. MARussellPESE ( talk) 12:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I've been reverting the inclusion of mentioning He Whom God Shall Make Manifest, Shaykhism and the reference to the assassination attempt on the Shah because there are numerous things that could be included in a summary of the religion, but these are rather obscure facts that are mentioned further down in the article under the history section. The lead needs to be written for someone who has never heard of the subject of the article and give them a concise overview of the most important topics. Per WP:LEAD:
I've been trying to include a few broad pieces of information to establish context, establish notability, and give a very concise summary of history and teachings. I don't understand the desire to link to He Whom God Shall Make Manifest or referencing Shaykhism when there is no context for those ideas in the first place, they do not stand out as particularly important relative to Baha'i history and teachings, and they do not add to the notability of the subject. Shaykhism is not even mentioned in the rest of the article.
You can also compare to other published summaries from reliable sources and see that the edits I'm reverting are deviating from a normal summary. Here is the BBC:
The Economist Magazine:
CIA World Factbook 2010:
Oxford dictionary:
Merriam Webster:
I think it would help to approach the lead with less emphasis on technical accuracy and more on brevity, with short, well-composed paragraphs that introduce major topics to those unfamiliar with the subject. Regards. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC) Cuñado your edit choices seem sound to me. Smkolins 20:14, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
In various respects, the history of Mirza Ali Mohammed, surnamed the Bab, presents startling resemblance to that of the Savior. Claiming descent from an ancient prophet king, he was yet, like Jesus, born in a lowly station; still he was regarded by his followers as the sovereign of his nation and of mankind, whose advent had been long foretold and ardently expected. After leading a life of purity, and uttering words of wisdom, he was put to death, through the hostility of his own government, but by the hands of foreign soldiers; and, before his execution, he was denied by some of his most prominent followers; nay, the very form of contumely with which thy were compelled to treat him, was the same which had been used towards the Savior in the hall of the high priest.
It is high honor for a teacher of wisdom thus to bear in his own history a resemblance to that of the Redeemer and we would fain believe that Mirza Ali Mohammed was worthy of the distinction. But we cannot forget that the claim was made for him, that he was "the Gate of Truth, the Imam of Islam," the subject of ancient prophecy, the worker of present miracles, and the destined possessor of universal empire.…"
Bábism, though at present a proscribed religion in Persia, is far from being extinct, or even declining, and the Báb may yet contest with Mahomed the privilege of being regarded as the real prophet of the faithful. Bábism in its infancy was the cause of a greater sensation than that even which was produced by the teaching of Jesus, if we may judge from the account of Josephus of the first days of Christianity. Far from foreseeing the future spread of that religion, the Jewish historian contents himself with observing — "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him (Christ), are not extinct at this day.
"He (the Shah) then massacred the Babis and religious sects, and set fire, a la Nero, to some of his victims."
"…a joyful constancy in the face of bitterest suffering, torture and death, as vivid and touching as any that are found in the records of the heroic days of old"… We have been accustomed to claim it as an argument for the truth of our Christianity that its believers have been strong to suffer martyrdom for its sake. But here we have not men only, but tender and delicate women and little children, joyfully enduring torture "not accepting deliverance," for the sake of the faith that was in them.…The account of this closing day in the Bab's history almost irresistibly recalls a similar day in a more sacred story. The mock trial – the outburst of blind, popular fury, stirred up by a jealous and vindictive priesthood – the cruel mockings and insult …"
From these it is more proper to call the period of Baha'u'llah's arrest as one of widerspread persecution. Smkolins ( talk) 22:09, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You're trying to leave it worded that he was imprisoned and exiled without mentioning why, implying that he may have committed a crime. That is also unacceptable to lead the reader towards that conclusion. "During a time of persecution" seems to be the best way to maintain brevity and accuracy while getting across a simple concept that he was forced out of Iran by religious opponents.
By the way, here's the definition of persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs. Seems to pretty well describe pretty well what happened. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Assuming antecedent events are causal is speculation, not "truth", nor "accuracy" and far from "objective". But anyway the information is already in the article at the point where the event concerned (the exile of Bahá'u'lláh) is discussed in appropriate detail. For the umteenth time this is the lead (or lede, introduction, opening summary, whatever you want to call it) which is supposed to be a summary. If you sincerely don't get it maybe we should seek a third opinion. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 04:51, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Here are a few references describing the time from third party sources:
Initially, the mullas hoped to stop the Bábí movement from spreading by denouncing its followers as apostates and enemies of God. These denouncements resulted in mob attacks, public executions and torture of early Bábís. When the Bábís (in accordance with Koranic principles) organized to defend themselves, the government sent troops into a series of engagements that resulted in heavy losses on both sides. The Báb himself was imprisoned from 1846 until 1850 and eventually publicly executed. In August 1852, two deranged Bábís attempted to kill the Shah in revenge for the execution of the Báb. This resulted in an extensive pogrom during which more than 20,000 Bábís – among them 400 Shí‘i mullas who had embraced the Bábí teachings – lost their lives.
— Friedrich W. Affolter, The Specter of Ideological Genocide: The Bahá'ís of Iran [13]
The challenging and heterodox nature of the Bāb’s.. claims provoked opposition on the part of the Shiʿite establishment, which then led the civil authorities of Qajar Persia to intervene on the side of the clerics...
The first known killings of Babis followed the murder of the prominent Qazvini cleric Ḥāji Mollā Moḥammad-Taqi Baraḡāni, the uncle and father-in-law of the Babi leader Ṭāhera (Qorrat-al-ʿAyn), and a leading opponent of both the Shaikhis and the Babis (October 1847). Although the murderer was at that time a Shaikhi, Ṭāhera and her followers in the city were blamed, and several were arrested, one being formally executed, and several others being done to death by Baraḡāni’s supporters ... From this point onwards, attacks against the Bābis by leading clerics and their followers became more common and some Babis began to carry weapons. One such confrontation occurred at Bārforuš in Māzandarān, involving the killing of several Babis and their opponents, and leading directly to the armed conflict between the Babis and their enemies at the nearby shrine of Shaikh Ṭabarsi (October 1848-May 1849).
...
After the Ṭabarsi conflict, mere adherence to the Bāb could be sufficient to lead to a death sentence, as most famously in the case of the “Seven Martyrs of Tehran,” a group of seven prominent Babis who were executed in public by beheading in February 1850...
There then followed two major conflicts between the Babis and their opponents in the towns of Zanjān (ca. May 13, 1850-ca. January 2, 1851) and Nayriz (May 27- June 21, 1850) respectively in the north and south of Persia, as well as a more limited confrontation in Yazd (January-February 1850). At Zanjān, one of the leading clerics, Mollā Moḥammad-ʿAli Ḥojjat, had become a Babi, bringing several thousand of his followers into the new religion. An inter-communal conflict developed, which led to the city governor ordering the physical division of the town into Babi and non-Babi sections. Fighting ensued, followed by the employment of troops and an almost nine month siege of the Babi quarter, during which the poorly armed defenders held off the besiegers, killing many. Many of the Babis were killed during the struggle and most of the survivors who fought to the end were massacred...
The Nayriz conflict was similar to the Zanjān one, the arrival of a locally-influential religious leader Sayyed Yaḥyā Darābi, known as “Waḥid,” leading to the conversion of many of the townspeople and exacerbating existing urban tensions. Again, the local governor tried to settle matters by force, leading to an armed struggle between the Babis and regional troops. As in Zanjān, the Babis’ religious fervour gave them an initial advantage over the forces sent against them and the besiegers’ final victory was achieved by deceit, and was marked by the torture and killing of the Babi survivors...
Following the outbreak of these conflicts, Amir Kabir (1807-52), Nāṣer-al-Din Shah’s (r. 1848-96) chief minister, determined to have the Bāb himself executed. Although clearly an act of state (Amir Kabir evidently hoped that the death of the Bāb would destroy the Babis’ fervour), the execution was readily given religious legitimization by senior clerics in Tabriz and was carried out on the basis of their fatwās (on July 8 or 9, 1850;...)
More Babis were killed in the aftermath of an unsuccessful attempt on the life of the shah by a small group of Babi radicals on August 15, 1852. The would-be assassins (either 3, 4 or 6 in number) were able to approach the shah in the guise of petitioners and then lightly wound him with pistol shot. One or two of the assailants were immediately killed by the shah’s attendants, the survivors revealing that they were Babis seeking revenge for the execution of the Bāb. Panic ensued, and a number of Babis were arrested on the charge of being involved in a conspiracy to murder the shah. Some of those arrested were later released, but most were killed, including the radical leaders, Mollā Shaikh ʿAli Toršizi, known as “ʿAẓim,” and Ḥosayn-Jān Milāni. Some other Babis, who were certainly not involved in any conspiracy, such as the poetess Ṭāhera, were also killed at this time. The Shah ordered a general massacre (qatl-e ʿāmm) of the Babis (Māzandarāni, VI, p. 71). The Ruznāma-ye waqāyeʿ-e ettefāqiya (10 Ḏu’l-Qaʿda 1268/ August 26 1852, pp. 1-3, tr. in Momen, 1981, pp. 139-42) lists names 27 or 28 individuals (one may have been allowed to escape) who were killed, but another account refers to about 400 Babis being killed, and another to women and children as being amongst those killed (cited in Momen, 1981, pp. 134, 144-45). In order to lessen the possibility of a revenge attack by other Babis, the chief minister, Mirzā Āqā Khan Nuri, distributed many of those who were to be killed to various collective groups (branches of the military, royal pages, merchants, the teachers and students at the Dār al-Fonun polytechnic college in Tehran established in the previous year, etc.), so that they could share responsibility for the action. There seems to have been some competition in devising manners of death for those condemned, some being simply speared, stabbed or shot, whilst others were beaten to death, hacked to pieces, shot at with cross bows, or blown from the mouth of a cannon, and at least three suffered the torture of having lighted candles inserted in specially cut wounds in the torso whilst still alive, before being cut into sections. Prior to death, some had their eyes gauged out or were otherwise disfigured, and at least one was shod with horseshoes. After death, the bodies of many of the victims were cut up, used for target practice, beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, or left for the dogs to eat, indicating both the ferocity of the executioners and their determination that the dead should be denied a proper burial (the details of the executions were reported in the official government newspaper, Ruznāma-ye vaqāyeʿ-e ettifāqiya, for 10 Ḏu’l-Qaʾda, pp. 1-3, tr. Momen, 1981, pp. 138-42). Ṭāhera was executed, probably by being suffocated, and her body thrown down a well...
In the aftermath of the assassination attempt, there were also attacks on Babi villagers in Milān (near Tabriz) and Nur in Māzandarān, in both of which some Babis were killed ( Hamadāni, pp. 414-15; Momen, 1981,pp. 145-46; Nabil, pp. 637-42). There was also a further upheaval in the town of Nayriz following the assassination of the town’s governor by some Babis (March 26, 1853), the new governor using the incident as a pretext to pillage and plunder the town extensively, in response to which many people fled to the mountains, attacking the soldiery sent to subdue them. Eventually, resistance was overcome, about a hundred men being straightaway beheaded, others were imprisoned or eventually executed, whilst the women were given over to the soldiers, many eventually becoming beggars in Shiraz...
The final persecution of Babis prior to the emergence of the Bahai religion as the main successor movement to the Babi movement took place in 1864, when a leading Shiʿite cleric of Isfahan, Shaikh Moḥammad-Bāqer, had about a dozen Babis arrested in the nearby town of Najafābād. The Babis suffered torture and beatings, but only four were eventually put to death, the rest being set free mainly because the shah decided that they had committed no crime (Momen, 1981, pp. 268-69).
... [Bábíism's] is of that stuff whereof world-religions are made. And to this rank does it lay claim, demanding nothing less than universal acceptance and undisputed sway, not only in Persia, where it was first preached and where it underwent that baptism of blood which was the terror and wonder even of those who proscribed and persecuted it, but throughout the whole world.
... Persecution went on steadily in all parts of the country [following the "seven martyrs" of Tehran]... Six months more elapsed, and then, in August, 1852, an event happened which brought down upon the Bábís a persecution fiercer than that which they had yet experienced. A certain youth named Sádik... conceived in his mind a plan of taking vengeance on the tyrant who had slain his beloved master and ruthlessly persecuted all who held the Bábí faith... We have now reached a point where the scene and the characters are in great measure changed; and indeed it would hardly be too much to say that we have now entered a on a new epoch in the history of the faith.
... In Persia persecution continued with varying severity, and continually was the Bábí colony at Baghdad recruited by exiles forced to fly from their own homes. Every effort was made by the Persian authorities to molest and injure the fugitives, who, at a last resource, enroled themselves as Turkish subjects... For twelve years, then, the Bábí leaders dwelt here... exhorting their followers to refrain from all resistance to the authorities and, by virtuous lives, patient resignation, and kindly dealing with all men, to commend their faith to the whole world. So far did they succeed that from the year 1852 until the present time, the Bábís have patiently and unresistingly submitted to all the persecutions which they have suffered and still do suffer.
— Article written by Edward Granville Browne contributed to Religious Systems of the World (2nd, 1892)
To the point, considering these third party accounts, it is entirely reasonable to summarize this in the lead as, "The Bahá'í Faith formed from the Bábí religion, a 19th century outgrowth of Shia Islam that faced persecution by Persian authorities. In 1853, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran." Because 1) Persecution by authorities was a definitive attribute of the Bábí faith, 2) Baha'u'llah's banishment was technically preceded by the assassination attempt, but more accurately described as the worst of several cases of religious persecution, and 3) Baha'u'llah was not involved in that assassination attempt and to mention that he was banished because of it implies that he was involved, which is leading the reader to an erroneous conclusion. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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I'm requesting comment on the first two paragraphs on the Baha'i Faith. We have had about a month of edit warring, and discussions don't seem to be going anywhere. Here are the first two paragraphs in the current version (which the majority of editors are reverting to):
The Bahá'í Faith ( Persian: بهائی Bahā'i) is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people. [14] Established by Bahá'u'lláh in 1863, it initially grew in the Middle East and now has between 5-7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories, with the highest concentrations in India and Iran. [15] The Bahá'í Faith formed from the Bábí religion, a 19th century outgrowth of Shia Islam that faced persecution by Persian authorities. In 1853, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran. He spent time in Baghdad before being further exiled, spending over a decade in the prison city of Akka in the Ottoman province of Syria, in what is now Israel. Following Bahá'u'lláh's death in 1892, leadership of the religion fell to his son `Abdu'l-Bahá (1844-1921), and later his great-grandson Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957). Bahá'ís around the world annually elect local, regional, and national Spiritual Assemblies that govern the affairs of the religion, and every five years the members of all National Spiritual Assemblies elect the Universal House of Justice, the nine-member supreme governing institution of the worldwide Bahá'í community, which sits in Haifa, Israel near the shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.
It has been adjusted and improved upon over this time, but there are a few sticking points. Please read the previous section on this talk page: Talk:Bahá'í Faith#Edit conflicts in the lead. If I may summarize the issues, they focus on how much detail should go into discussing the persecution of early Bábís and an attempted assassination of the Shah by some Bábís in order to briefly explain why Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and exiled from Iran. User:A35821361, in particular, thinks that mentioning persecution and exile should also mention the assassination attempt. Others believe that mentioning the assassination attempt presents its own problematic POV by leading the reader to think Baha'u'llah was behind the attempted murder (he was not). Regardless, all of the information is further below in the article and on sub-pages explaining all the details. This is a question about what is appropriate to summarize in the lead paragraphs to convey important concepts while not going into extraneous detail. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
But none of these points are being discussed…. Relative to the points being discussed I think the clear majority sources clearly relate the wave of persecutions to be a distinct subject from that of the assassination attempt and really in light of history most of the discussion and reaction is to that wave of martyrs and persecution that took place and stands as its own subject in the lede. I think this trumps even the question of implying Baha'u'llah was involved. I submitted some sources about this above and Cuñado did some more. More surely exist. Anyway, that's my input. Smkolins ( talk) 22:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The 1852 incident was a turning point for it opened the door to sporadic but severe mass killings in the Iranian provinces and smaller communities in the following years and even decades.Smkolins ( talk) 23:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Bahá'u'lláh, as one of the leaders of the Bábí movement, was arrested after a specific, causative antecedent event, namely the failed assassination attempt by some Bábís of
Naser al-Din Shah Qajar on August 15, 1852.
Bahá'u'lláh remained a free man even while the Báb's followers were engaged in an apocalyptic insurgency.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested in 1848 when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i unfurled a Black Standard in Mashhad, fulfilling an Islamic prophecy, and began a march with other Bábis.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i died at the battle of Shaykh Tabarsí on February 2, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the siege itself ended on May 10, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the Báb was executed on July 9, 1850.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested while the insurgencies in Neyriz and Zanjan continued.
Regards, A35821361 ( talk) 04:38, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Due to the quiescence here for the past week since recommended wording by Clean Copy talk, is there a consensus on his suggestion? Although Bahá'u'lláh was in fact arrested subsequent to the failed assassination attempt, is the wording "In 1853, during a time of persecution in the wake of Babi insurrections, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran" acceptable? If not, what is the objection? Regards, A35821361 ( talk) 21:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
This is a somewhat contentious topic. Should we state that Bahá'ís consider themselves Muslims, although others dispute this claim, in the lead section of this article? I'm thinking that the second paragraph would be a good place to have it inserted. Also, "Letters written by Bahá'u'lláh. . . the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Kitáb-i-Íqán, Some Answered Questions, and The Dawn-Breakers." is unsourced and lacks citations.-- Ilikerainandstorms ( talk) 16:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
There is a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard wherein an editor is proposing to remove all links on Wikipedia from bahai-library.com. The discussion is here] Morgan Leigh | Talk 20:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm noticing that the history section is a little jumbled toward the end. The first few subsections, "The Báb", "Bahá'u'lláh" and "Abdu'l-Bahá" correspond to the ministries of these figures. However, the following two subsections, "Baha'i Administration" and "International Plans" are more nebulous. The former describes the ministry and station of Shoghi Effendi, and also mentions assemblies. The latter is about the work done both by Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice as part of a series of global plans. I think the writing would be more clear if each subsection had a clearer purpose. It would be more consistent with the rest of the article to rename these subsections to "Shoghi Effendi" and the "Universal House of Justice", and rearrange the content accordingly. I think the content would mostly remain as-is, just reordered a little. This seems fairly clear but I'm new to wikipedia so I'm hoping to tread lightly :-) Rm9820 ( talk) 09:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I just revereted a change to the lead from an IP address user changing "has between 5 and 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," into "now has more than 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," because they didn't provide any new sources of explanation of their new interpretations of sources. That said
Bahá'í statistics does make clear that the newest estimates say >7 Mil. I don't think that is appropriate for the lead, since there are contradicting sources as well, and numerical estimation of a religion is complex. I personally believer 14M+ is probably more accurate, but don't have good enough sources to defend that. What I'd like to suggest is that the lead say "has between 5 and 8 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," since the sources contain many recent estimate of over 7 million, but none as high as 8 in recent years. Thoughts?
penultimate_supper (
talk)
12:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm noticing that the currently-cited source for this information, Encyclopedia Britannica 2010, actually lists the total number of Baha'is at 7,337,000. That actually contradicts the current statement that the population is between 5 million and 7 million. So, we should really change it to something else. Both the "more than 7 million" and "between 5 million and 7.8 million" suggestions make sense to me. Rm9820 ( talk) 15:57, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim that the Baha'i writings are derogatory towards the Ahmadiyya movement seems to be the center of a brewing edit war on this page. I think citations should be provided here to support that claim since it's being used to justify an edit. UrielvIII ( talk) 14:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Someone redirected this article to the article "Nazism", and now we really need someone to fix it! A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't know how to fix the problem so I'll stop messing around ): A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:09, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Fixed the problem. A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks :) A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
"is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people.[1]"
This should have a better source than an online dictionary, and has a notably different tone than leadsentences at Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Perhaps this is the agreement of WP:RS on the topic, but it sounds like an internal description. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 16:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Per recent , @David1212, this quote may be relevant if you are looking at primary source material: "Bahá’u’lláh is not the intermediary between other Manifestations and God. Each has His own relation to the Primal Source. But in the sense that Bahá’u’lláh is the greatest Manifestation to yet appear, the One who consummates the Revelation of Moses, He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words, Bahá’u’lláh identifies the glory of the God-Head on that occasion with Himself. No distinction can be made amongst the Prophets in the sense that They all proceed from one Source, and are of one essence. But Their stations and functions in this world are different."(published in muliple places but originally [3]) And this article is not one for defending Christian beliefs. Smkolins 16:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Daniel, addressing the specific issue that you're trying to shove into the article, Baha'u'llah wrote the Kitab-i-Iqan, which is the foundational book for the Baha'i understanding of the Manifestation of God. Most of the book is dedicated to explaining the concept that all Manifestations of God are equal and none should be regarded as inherently greater than another, only that over time people's capacity increases and thus the revelations get more advanced. Knowing that a thorough review of primary sources would not come to the conclusion that you were trying to insert, that your "criticism" is not seen anywhere among reliable secondary sources, and that it appears that you cherry picked a quotation somewhat out of context to make a novel interpretation of primary sources, I removed it. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
:How does such contradict what I provided, that Bahá'u'lláh is declared to be the "supreme Manifestation of God," with all other manifestations being servants unto Him and do His bidding."
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 |
User Jeff3000 is constantly reverting a citation on war from Baha'i sources in this section for no apparent reason. If you have a problem please state it in a civilized manner here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illuminator123 ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Show me one reputable third party source talking about this while summarizing the religion. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 21:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
For the establishment of a lasting peace (Greater Peace) and the purging of the 'overwhelming Corruptions' it is necessary that all the people of the world universally unite under the Baha'i Faith. According to the Baha'i leader `Abdu'l-Bahá, conquests and war can be a righteous means of establishing peace…
This edit [1] doesn't belong in the second paragraph. It's wordy, distracting, and covered elsewhere. Introductions should be crisp, tight, and direct. Please follow the editing guidelines on lead sections. MARussellPESE ( talk) 12:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I've been reverting the inclusion of mentioning He Whom God Shall Make Manifest, Shaykhism and the reference to the assassination attempt on the Shah because there are numerous things that could be included in a summary of the religion, but these are rather obscure facts that are mentioned further down in the article under the history section. The lead needs to be written for someone who has never heard of the subject of the article and give them a concise overview of the most important topics. Per WP:LEAD:
I've been trying to include a few broad pieces of information to establish context, establish notability, and give a very concise summary of history and teachings. I don't understand the desire to link to He Whom God Shall Make Manifest or referencing Shaykhism when there is no context for those ideas in the first place, they do not stand out as particularly important relative to Baha'i history and teachings, and they do not add to the notability of the subject. Shaykhism is not even mentioned in the rest of the article.
You can also compare to other published summaries from reliable sources and see that the edits I'm reverting are deviating from a normal summary. Here is the BBC:
The Economist Magazine:
CIA World Factbook 2010:
Oxford dictionary:
Merriam Webster:
I think it would help to approach the lead with less emphasis on technical accuracy and more on brevity, with short, well-composed paragraphs that introduce major topics to those unfamiliar with the subject. Regards. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 19:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC) Cuñado your edit choices seem sound to me. Smkolins 20:14, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
In various respects, the history of Mirza Ali Mohammed, surnamed the Bab, presents startling resemblance to that of the Savior. Claiming descent from an ancient prophet king, he was yet, like Jesus, born in a lowly station; still he was regarded by his followers as the sovereign of his nation and of mankind, whose advent had been long foretold and ardently expected. After leading a life of purity, and uttering words of wisdom, he was put to death, through the hostility of his own government, but by the hands of foreign soldiers; and, before his execution, he was denied by some of his most prominent followers; nay, the very form of contumely with which thy were compelled to treat him, was the same which had been used towards the Savior in the hall of the high priest.
It is high honor for a teacher of wisdom thus to bear in his own history a resemblance to that of the Redeemer and we would fain believe that Mirza Ali Mohammed was worthy of the distinction. But we cannot forget that the claim was made for him, that he was "the Gate of Truth, the Imam of Islam," the subject of ancient prophecy, the worker of present miracles, and the destined possessor of universal empire.…"
Bábism, though at present a proscribed religion in Persia, is far from being extinct, or even declining, and the Báb may yet contest with Mahomed the privilege of being regarded as the real prophet of the faithful. Bábism in its infancy was the cause of a greater sensation than that even which was produced by the teaching of Jesus, if we may judge from the account of Josephus of the first days of Christianity. Far from foreseeing the future spread of that religion, the Jewish historian contents himself with observing — "And the tribe of Christians, so named from him (Christ), are not extinct at this day.
"He (the Shah) then massacred the Babis and religious sects, and set fire, a la Nero, to some of his victims."
"…a joyful constancy in the face of bitterest suffering, torture and death, as vivid and touching as any that are found in the records of the heroic days of old"… We have been accustomed to claim it as an argument for the truth of our Christianity that its believers have been strong to suffer martyrdom for its sake. But here we have not men only, but tender and delicate women and little children, joyfully enduring torture "not accepting deliverance," for the sake of the faith that was in them.…The account of this closing day in the Bab's history almost irresistibly recalls a similar day in a more sacred story. The mock trial – the outburst of blind, popular fury, stirred up by a jealous and vindictive priesthood – the cruel mockings and insult …"
From these it is more proper to call the period of Baha'u'llah's arrest as one of widerspread persecution. Smkolins ( talk) 22:09, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You're trying to leave it worded that he was imprisoned and exiled without mentioning why, implying that he may have committed a crime. That is also unacceptable to lead the reader towards that conclusion. "During a time of persecution" seems to be the best way to maintain brevity and accuracy while getting across a simple concept that he was forced out of Iran by religious opponents.
By the way, here's the definition of persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs. Seems to pretty well describe pretty well what happened. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:52, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Assuming antecedent events are causal is speculation, not "truth", nor "accuracy" and far from "objective". But anyway the information is already in the article at the point where the event concerned (the exile of Bahá'u'lláh) is discussed in appropriate detail. For the umteenth time this is the lead (or lede, introduction, opening summary, whatever you want to call it) which is supposed to be a summary. If you sincerely don't get it maybe we should seek a third opinion. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 04:51, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Here are a few references describing the time from third party sources:
Initially, the mullas hoped to stop the Bábí movement from spreading by denouncing its followers as apostates and enemies of God. These denouncements resulted in mob attacks, public executions and torture of early Bábís. When the Bábís (in accordance with Koranic principles) organized to defend themselves, the government sent troops into a series of engagements that resulted in heavy losses on both sides. The Báb himself was imprisoned from 1846 until 1850 and eventually publicly executed. In August 1852, two deranged Bábís attempted to kill the Shah in revenge for the execution of the Báb. This resulted in an extensive pogrom during which more than 20,000 Bábís – among them 400 Shí‘i mullas who had embraced the Bábí teachings – lost their lives.
— Friedrich W. Affolter, The Specter of Ideological Genocide: The Bahá'ís of Iran [13]
The challenging and heterodox nature of the Bāb’s.. claims provoked opposition on the part of the Shiʿite establishment, which then led the civil authorities of Qajar Persia to intervene on the side of the clerics...
The first known killings of Babis followed the murder of the prominent Qazvini cleric Ḥāji Mollā Moḥammad-Taqi Baraḡāni, the uncle and father-in-law of the Babi leader Ṭāhera (Qorrat-al-ʿAyn), and a leading opponent of both the Shaikhis and the Babis (October 1847). Although the murderer was at that time a Shaikhi, Ṭāhera and her followers in the city were blamed, and several were arrested, one being formally executed, and several others being done to death by Baraḡāni’s supporters ... From this point onwards, attacks against the Bābis by leading clerics and their followers became more common and some Babis began to carry weapons. One such confrontation occurred at Bārforuš in Māzandarān, involving the killing of several Babis and their opponents, and leading directly to the armed conflict between the Babis and their enemies at the nearby shrine of Shaikh Ṭabarsi (October 1848-May 1849).
...
After the Ṭabarsi conflict, mere adherence to the Bāb could be sufficient to lead to a death sentence, as most famously in the case of the “Seven Martyrs of Tehran,” a group of seven prominent Babis who were executed in public by beheading in February 1850...
There then followed two major conflicts between the Babis and their opponents in the towns of Zanjān (ca. May 13, 1850-ca. January 2, 1851) and Nayriz (May 27- June 21, 1850) respectively in the north and south of Persia, as well as a more limited confrontation in Yazd (January-February 1850). At Zanjān, one of the leading clerics, Mollā Moḥammad-ʿAli Ḥojjat, had become a Babi, bringing several thousand of his followers into the new religion. An inter-communal conflict developed, which led to the city governor ordering the physical division of the town into Babi and non-Babi sections. Fighting ensued, followed by the employment of troops and an almost nine month siege of the Babi quarter, during which the poorly armed defenders held off the besiegers, killing many. Many of the Babis were killed during the struggle and most of the survivors who fought to the end were massacred...
The Nayriz conflict was similar to the Zanjān one, the arrival of a locally-influential religious leader Sayyed Yaḥyā Darābi, known as “Waḥid,” leading to the conversion of many of the townspeople and exacerbating existing urban tensions. Again, the local governor tried to settle matters by force, leading to an armed struggle between the Babis and regional troops. As in Zanjān, the Babis’ religious fervour gave them an initial advantage over the forces sent against them and the besiegers’ final victory was achieved by deceit, and was marked by the torture and killing of the Babi survivors...
Following the outbreak of these conflicts, Amir Kabir (1807-52), Nāṣer-al-Din Shah’s (r. 1848-96) chief minister, determined to have the Bāb himself executed. Although clearly an act of state (Amir Kabir evidently hoped that the death of the Bāb would destroy the Babis’ fervour), the execution was readily given religious legitimization by senior clerics in Tabriz and was carried out on the basis of their fatwās (on July 8 or 9, 1850;...)
More Babis were killed in the aftermath of an unsuccessful attempt on the life of the shah by a small group of Babi radicals on August 15, 1852. The would-be assassins (either 3, 4 or 6 in number) were able to approach the shah in the guise of petitioners and then lightly wound him with pistol shot. One or two of the assailants were immediately killed by the shah’s attendants, the survivors revealing that they were Babis seeking revenge for the execution of the Bāb. Panic ensued, and a number of Babis were arrested on the charge of being involved in a conspiracy to murder the shah. Some of those arrested were later released, but most were killed, including the radical leaders, Mollā Shaikh ʿAli Toršizi, known as “ʿAẓim,” and Ḥosayn-Jān Milāni. Some other Babis, who were certainly not involved in any conspiracy, such as the poetess Ṭāhera, were also killed at this time. The Shah ordered a general massacre (qatl-e ʿāmm) of the Babis (Māzandarāni, VI, p. 71). The Ruznāma-ye waqāyeʿ-e ettefāqiya (10 Ḏu’l-Qaʿda 1268/ August 26 1852, pp. 1-3, tr. in Momen, 1981, pp. 139-42) lists names 27 or 28 individuals (one may have been allowed to escape) who were killed, but another account refers to about 400 Babis being killed, and another to women and children as being amongst those killed (cited in Momen, 1981, pp. 134, 144-45). In order to lessen the possibility of a revenge attack by other Babis, the chief minister, Mirzā Āqā Khan Nuri, distributed many of those who were to be killed to various collective groups (branches of the military, royal pages, merchants, the teachers and students at the Dār al-Fonun polytechnic college in Tehran established in the previous year, etc.), so that they could share responsibility for the action. There seems to have been some competition in devising manners of death for those condemned, some being simply speared, stabbed or shot, whilst others were beaten to death, hacked to pieces, shot at with cross bows, or blown from the mouth of a cannon, and at least three suffered the torture of having lighted candles inserted in specially cut wounds in the torso whilst still alive, before being cut into sections. Prior to death, some had their eyes gauged out or were otherwise disfigured, and at least one was shod with horseshoes. After death, the bodies of many of the victims were cut up, used for target practice, beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, or left for the dogs to eat, indicating both the ferocity of the executioners and their determination that the dead should be denied a proper burial (the details of the executions were reported in the official government newspaper, Ruznāma-ye vaqāyeʿ-e ettifāqiya, for 10 Ḏu’l-Qaʾda, pp. 1-3, tr. Momen, 1981, pp. 138-42). Ṭāhera was executed, probably by being suffocated, and her body thrown down a well...
In the aftermath of the assassination attempt, there were also attacks on Babi villagers in Milān (near Tabriz) and Nur in Māzandarān, in both of which some Babis were killed ( Hamadāni, pp. 414-15; Momen, 1981,pp. 145-46; Nabil, pp. 637-42). There was also a further upheaval in the town of Nayriz following the assassination of the town’s governor by some Babis (March 26, 1853), the new governor using the incident as a pretext to pillage and plunder the town extensively, in response to which many people fled to the mountains, attacking the soldiery sent to subdue them. Eventually, resistance was overcome, about a hundred men being straightaway beheaded, others were imprisoned or eventually executed, whilst the women were given over to the soldiers, many eventually becoming beggars in Shiraz...
The final persecution of Babis prior to the emergence of the Bahai religion as the main successor movement to the Babi movement took place in 1864, when a leading Shiʿite cleric of Isfahan, Shaikh Moḥammad-Bāqer, had about a dozen Babis arrested in the nearby town of Najafābād. The Babis suffered torture and beatings, but only four were eventually put to death, the rest being set free mainly because the shah decided that they had committed no crime (Momen, 1981, pp. 268-69).
... [Bábíism's] is of that stuff whereof world-religions are made. And to this rank does it lay claim, demanding nothing less than universal acceptance and undisputed sway, not only in Persia, where it was first preached and where it underwent that baptism of blood which was the terror and wonder even of those who proscribed and persecuted it, but throughout the whole world.
... Persecution went on steadily in all parts of the country [following the "seven martyrs" of Tehran]... Six months more elapsed, and then, in August, 1852, an event happened which brought down upon the Bábís a persecution fiercer than that which they had yet experienced. A certain youth named Sádik... conceived in his mind a plan of taking vengeance on the tyrant who had slain his beloved master and ruthlessly persecuted all who held the Bábí faith... We have now reached a point where the scene and the characters are in great measure changed; and indeed it would hardly be too much to say that we have now entered a on a new epoch in the history of the faith.
... In Persia persecution continued with varying severity, and continually was the Bábí colony at Baghdad recruited by exiles forced to fly from their own homes. Every effort was made by the Persian authorities to molest and injure the fugitives, who, at a last resource, enroled themselves as Turkish subjects... For twelve years, then, the Bábí leaders dwelt here... exhorting their followers to refrain from all resistance to the authorities and, by virtuous lives, patient resignation, and kindly dealing with all men, to commend their faith to the whole world. So far did they succeed that from the year 1852 until the present time, the Bábís have patiently and unresistingly submitted to all the persecutions which they have suffered and still do suffer.
— Article written by Edward Granville Browne contributed to Religious Systems of the World (2nd, 1892)
To the point, considering these third party accounts, it is entirely reasonable to summarize this in the lead as, "The Bahá'í Faith formed from the Bábí religion, a 19th century outgrowth of Shia Islam that faced persecution by Persian authorities. In 1853, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran." Because 1) Persecution by authorities was a definitive attribute of the Bábí faith, 2) Baha'u'llah's banishment was technically preceded by the assassination attempt, but more accurately described as the worst of several cases of religious persecution, and 3) Baha'u'llah was not involved in that assassination attempt and to mention that he was banished because of it implies that he was involved, which is leading the reader to an erroneous conclusion. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 06:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
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I'm requesting comment on the first two paragraphs on the Baha'i Faith. We have had about a month of edit warring, and discussions don't seem to be going anywhere. Here are the first two paragraphs in the current version (which the majority of editors are reverting to):
The Bahá'í Faith ( Persian: بهائی Bahā'i) is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people. [14] Established by Bahá'u'lláh in 1863, it initially grew in the Middle East and now has between 5-7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories, with the highest concentrations in India and Iran. [15] The Bahá'í Faith formed from the Bábí religion, a 19th century outgrowth of Shia Islam that faced persecution by Persian authorities. In 1853, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran. He spent time in Baghdad before being further exiled, spending over a decade in the prison city of Akka in the Ottoman province of Syria, in what is now Israel. Following Bahá'u'lláh's death in 1892, leadership of the religion fell to his son `Abdu'l-Bahá (1844-1921), and later his great-grandson Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957). Bahá'ís around the world annually elect local, regional, and national Spiritual Assemblies that govern the affairs of the religion, and every five years the members of all National Spiritual Assemblies elect the Universal House of Justice, the nine-member supreme governing institution of the worldwide Bahá'í community, which sits in Haifa, Israel near the shrine of Bahá'u'lláh.
It has been adjusted and improved upon over this time, but there are a few sticking points. Please read the previous section on this talk page: Talk:Bahá'í Faith#Edit conflicts in the lead. If I may summarize the issues, they focus on how much detail should go into discussing the persecution of early Bábís and an attempted assassination of the Shah by some Bábís in order to briefly explain why Baha'u'llah was imprisoned and exiled from Iran. User:A35821361, in particular, thinks that mentioning persecution and exile should also mention the assassination attempt. Others believe that mentioning the assassination attempt presents its own problematic POV by leading the reader to think Baha'u'llah was behind the attempted murder (he was not). Regardless, all of the information is further below in the article and on sub-pages explaining all the details. This is a question about what is appropriate to summarize in the lead paragraphs to convey important concepts while not going into extraneous detail. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:50, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
But none of these points are being discussed…. Relative to the points being discussed I think the clear majority sources clearly relate the wave of persecutions to be a distinct subject from that of the assassination attempt and really in light of history most of the discussion and reaction is to that wave of martyrs and persecution that took place and stands as its own subject in the lede. I think this trumps even the question of implying Baha'u'llah was involved. I submitted some sources about this above and Cuñado did some more. More surely exist. Anyway, that's my input. Smkolins ( talk) 22:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The 1852 incident was a turning point for it opened the door to sporadic but severe mass killings in the Iranian provinces and smaller communities in the following years and even decades.Smkolins ( talk) 23:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Bahá'u'lláh, as one of the leaders of the Bábí movement, was arrested after a specific, causative antecedent event, namely the failed assassination attempt by some Bábís of
Naser al-Din Shah Qajar on August 15, 1852.
Bahá'u'lláh remained a free man even while the Báb's followers were engaged in an apocalyptic insurgency.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested in 1848 when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i unfurled a Black Standard in Mashhad, fulfilling an Islamic prophecy, and began a march with other Bábis.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when Mullá Ḥusayn-i-Bushru'i died at the battle of Shaykh Tabarsí on February 2, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the siege itself ended on May 10, 1849.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested when the Báb was executed on July 9, 1850.
Bahá'u'lláh was not arrested while the insurgencies in Neyriz and Zanjan continued.
Regards, A35821361 ( talk) 04:38, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Due to the quiescence here for the past week since recommended wording by Clean Copy talk, is there a consensus on his suggestion? Although Bahá'u'lláh was in fact arrested subsequent to the failed assassination attempt, is the wording "In 1853, during a time of persecution in the wake of Babi insurrections, Bahá'u'lláh was imprisoned and exiled from his native Iran" acceptable? If not, what is the objection? Regards, A35821361 ( talk) 21:39, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
This is a somewhat contentious topic. Should we state that Bahá'ís consider themselves Muslims, although others dispute this claim, in the lead section of this article? I'm thinking that the second paragraph would be a good place to have it inserted. Also, "Letters written by Bahá'u'lláh. . . the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Kitáb-i-Íqán, Some Answered Questions, and The Dawn-Breakers." is unsourced and lacks citations.-- Ilikerainandstorms ( talk) 16:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
There is a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard wherein an editor is proposing to remove all links on Wikipedia from bahai-library.com. The discussion is here] Morgan Leigh | Talk 20:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
I'm noticing that the history section is a little jumbled toward the end. The first few subsections, "The Báb", "Bahá'u'lláh" and "Abdu'l-Bahá" correspond to the ministries of these figures. However, the following two subsections, "Baha'i Administration" and "International Plans" are more nebulous. The former describes the ministry and station of Shoghi Effendi, and also mentions assemblies. The latter is about the work done both by Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice as part of a series of global plans. I think the writing would be more clear if each subsection had a clearer purpose. It would be more consistent with the rest of the article to rename these subsections to "Shoghi Effendi" and the "Universal House of Justice", and rearrange the content accordingly. I think the content would mostly remain as-is, just reordered a little. This seems fairly clear but I'm new to wikipedia so I'm hoping to tread lightly :-) Rm9820 ( talk) 09:27, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
I just revereted a change to the lead from an IP address user changing "has between 5 and 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," into "now has more than 7 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," because they didn't provide any new sources of explanation of their new interpretations of sources. That said
Bahá'í statistics does make clear that the newest estimates say >7 Mil. I don't think that is appropriate for the lead, since there are contradicting sources as well, and numerical estimation of a religion is complex. I personally believer 14M+ is probably more accurate, but don't have good enough sources to defend that. What I'd like to suggest is that the lead say "has between 5 and 8 million adherents, known as Bahá'ís, spread out into most of the world's countries and territories," since the sources contain many recent estimate of over 7 million, but none as high as 8 in recent years. Thoughts?
penultimate_supper (
talk)
12:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm noticing that the currently-cited source for this information, Encyclopedia Britannica 2010, actually lists the total number of Baha'is at 7,337,000. That actually contradicts the current statement that the population is between 5 million and 7 million. So, we should really change it to something else. Both the "more than 7 million" and "between 5 million and 7.8 million" suggestions make sense to me. Rm9820 ( talk) 15:57, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
The claim that the Baha'i writings are derogatory towards the Ahmadiyya movement seems to be the center of a brewing edit war on this page. I think citations should be provided here to support that claim since it's being used to justify an edit. UrielvIII ( talk) 14:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Someone redirected this article to the article "Nazism", and now we really need someone to fix it! A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:07, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't know how to fix the problem so I'll stop messing around ): A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:09, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Fixed the problem. A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:10, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks :) A planetree leaf ( talk) 11:13, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
"is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people.[1]"
This should have a better source than an online dictionary, and has a notably different tone than leadsentences at Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Perhaps this is the agreement of WP:RS on the topic, but it sounds like an internal description. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 16:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Per recent , @David1212, this quote may be relevant if you are looking at primary source material: "Bahá’u’lláh is not the intermediary between other Manifestations and God. Each has His own relation to the Primal Source. But in the sense that Bahá’u’lláh is the greatest Manifestation to yet appear, the One who consummates the Revelation of Moses, He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words, Bahá’u’lláh identifies the glory of the God-Head on that occasion with Himself. No distinction can be made amongst the Prophets in the sense that They all proceed from one Source, and are of one essence. But Their stations and functions in this world are different."(published in muliple places but originally [3]) And this article is not one for defending Christian beliefs. Smkolins 16:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Daniel, addressing the specific issue that you're trying to shove into the article, Baha'u'llah wrote the Kitab-i-Iqan, which is the foundational book for the Baha'i understanding of the Manifestation of God. Most of the book is dedicated to explaining the concept that all Manifestations of God are equal and none should be regarded as inherently greater than another, only that over time people's capacity increases and thus the revelations get more advanced. Knowing that a thorough review of primary sources would not come to the conclusion that you were trying to insert, that your "criticism" is not seen anywhere among reliable secondary sources, and that it appears that you cherry picked a quotation somewhat out of context to make a novel interpretation of primary sources, I removed it. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:36, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
:How does such contradict what I provided, that Bahá'u'lláh is declared to be the "supreme Manifestation of God," with all other manifestations being servants unto Him and do His bidding."