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I've renamed this article back to Baby 81 (its original name) and removed all references to the child's real name, for obvious reasons. -- Tony Sidaway 14:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a little bizarre, when a google search for "Baby 81" finds BBC reports like these [1] [2] [3] plus dozens more from other (non-Wikipedia-derived) sources.
Is this child's name a secret? Are we not permitted to have articles on minors now? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have followed your link, Tony, but I don't see the connection between two minors who were victims of crime (and presumably not particuarly notable, however horrific the crimes) and a child who was a "symbol of tsunami suffering". I repeat: are we being encouraged to delete all articles about any living person below a particular age? Why? -- ALoan (Talk) 23:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[←] You may be surprised at the number of articles I have written based on obituaries that appear in broadsheet newspapers. Newspapers, and the BBC, are excellent sources; not perfect, of course, but they have a reputation to defend, and have the time and funding to indulge in extensive fact-checking. But are you saying that they don't have ethics too? Or that their ethics are somehow inferior to the ethics of Wikipedia?
You seem to think it is somehow contrary to the purpose of an encyclopedia to include the name of a person who was involved in current (and in due course) historical) event - that the name is not notable, perhaps? I still don't see how this turns into a claim that BLP is in point. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is one of the reasons that people shouting "BLP" are encountering resistance. The name gets over 2000 hits and details an international story where the name was very public. Us censoring the name merely lessens our coverage of a significant world event. violet/riga (t) 23:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Right, so there are two admins and three others that believe that the name should be included despite what it says at WP:BLP. At which point does general consensus override the individual? Please don't say that consensus can't override policy because the issue is the reading of the policy and the consensus would be that it does not violate it. violet/riga (t) 07:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Tony, as far as I can see, the only person I can see arguing for omission of the name in this case is you. And there are plenty of other people her who disagree. I would say that consensus is very much against you here. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Interested readers may like to see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff, which seems to be the ArbCom case mentioned above. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
One side of the argument seems to be that if the sources include the name, we can. The other side seems to be that if the sources include the name, we can choose not to (letting readers go to the sources to find out the name if they want to). First, to forestall the "Wikipedia needs to record all of history" argument, we should assume that all information included in a Wikipedia article will still be available in various sources in 10 years time (maybe not the same ones, but some sources should still remain). If not, then history has passed its verdict and the information should be passed from Wikipedia to a "possibly this happened but we aren't really sure any more" wiki. In that vein, I tend to agree that including the name is not necessary here. Once the living person dies, their name can be placed in the article. The only other issue I have a question about is how Google searches work if a name appears in a Wikipedia page title, as opposed to appearing simply in a brief footnote to an article. Is the result on a Google search the same? Carcharoth 11:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
There appear to be four editors and one anon in favour of the inclusion of Baby 81's name. The relevant BLP clause begins "Editors should consider" and includes "Evaluate on a case by case basis". This clearly states that we have to make judgements for each article. I believe that consensus is leaning in favour of inclusion and propose to add it. I await any further comments before doing so. violet/riga (t) 19:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
As it appears from this discussion that the concensus was, based on WP:BLP was to include the child's name, I have reverted the most recent change to delete the name. Bielle 23:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This issue needs much wider discussion I think. Perhaps a request for comment to get as much outside opinion as possible? Multiple reverts can really be justified by a consensus of so few people. In light of the "Do no harm" principle as outlined by ArbCom, I think the name should be removed pending full discussion. Are people agreeable to an WP:RFC/ARTICLES? WjB scribe 03:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
How on earth could the article cause any harm to this child? Be realistic here, people. Wikipedia or not, this event is forever apart of this kid's life, and whether or not the name is said makes no difference. Removing fundamental information for an article for such a reason is retarded. Who are you protecting? Will the kid magically not now about all this, because the English Wikipedia article didn't mention their name? Removing the name is a perfect example of BLP being incorrectly applied. -- Ned Scott 03:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It's an anecdotal event that transpired through no fault of the child and that was resolved without any reported lasting injury or negative impact on the child, right? I don't see the "negative" concern here. Yes, the baby is going to be followed by this anecdote during the rest of his/her life, but I don't see significant harm arising from that. No more harmful than say being the first baby of the millenium, or the child of a celebrity. Consider, once this child grows up, would someone hearing this anecdote be likely to treat the person negatively, or hold the event against them? That seems unlikely to me. Given that I don't see what the potential harm is, I don't see any reason for excluding the well-known details of the child's identity. Dragons flight 05:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Now that I've had a chance to gather my thoughts, let me explain why I believe we should omit Baby 81's full name from this article. As I see it the problem is the risk of labelling this boy for the rest of his life as "that baby that survived the earthquake and was fought over by those couples". Its not a terrible label and much better than "that rape victim" or "that kid that accidentally killed his mother", but it is a label nonetheless. Most people claim the right to decide for themselves who they are and what to share with others about their lives. I believe most dislike being labelled based on one event in their life or a particular characteristic they have. We will probably never be able to give a rounded image of the person that baby grows up to be, but we may well immortalise him as Baby 81. Whereas other reports of the incident will probably fade from google overtime and old newslinks no longer be available, our articles are likely to maintain a high google presence forever. Already it is common for people to "google" those they meet, those they might employ, those they might date. We have a responsibility as a result. In my opinion we can give our readers all the information about Baby 81 they need without including his name. But we should give that person a chance to decide in later life who he wants to be and whether he wants to share this element of his life with people he meets. We should respect his privacy. WjB scribe 06:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Note that we have an article on Jessica McClure, the baby (now grown up) who was rescued from a well in 1986. Would you have argued, if Wikipedia existed in 1986, to exclude the name from the article? Would it have been OK to add the name after she was no longer a minor? (But isn't some of the "possible damage" cited, like them being Googled by people considering them for a job or a date, more likely to happen once they're adults than while they're still kids?) If there was a Wikipedia in the wizarding world, would people there have argued for excluding the name of Harry Potter in the early years when he was solely famous as the "Boy Who Lived" from an incident in his infanthood? Maybe the article would be renamed to The Boy who Lived, and of course due to wizarding taboos the name of his opponent would be He Who Must Not Be Named rather than straightforwardly as Lord Voldemort. *Dan T.* 11:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been over this page twice now, and while I don't see how a clear consensus to include the name exists (sorry, it just looks pretty muddy right now to me) it looks like recent wheel warring that showed up on AN/I occurred because some believe it does. So, I'd just like to throw my two cents in here, and say I agree with the concerns that this inclusion goes against BLP; particularly WJBscribe's comments at the top of this section. I would oppose including the name in this article, and as a redirect. I think this article does just fine at recording the event without needing to delve so far into anyone's privacy...especially as the article itself indicates the family is avoiding media attention. That seems clear to me, but I respect that others disagree. I just want to add my voice here. --
InkSplotch 18:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Striking part of my comments. I still am not sure consensus is clear here, but my concerns that this articles reinforces a 'label' as WJBscribe describes have been greatly lessened. --
InkSplotch 03:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, of all the things to do right now you choose to edit war? 1RR please! violet/riga (t) 08:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
That ArbCom ruling that User:Daniel alludes to is sensible. However, who has agreed that this article does any "harm" to its subject? The "do no harm" decree was composed in response to an article mocking Chinese boy for being fat. This is not a similar case and, though the inclusion of the name is controversial (among Wikipedia editors--not the media at large), it is not controversial for the reasons surrounding the ArbCom case.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back
One of the arguments here is whether or not the name will be so obviously associated with this event in the future that trying to hide it is moot. Though there are ~400,000 hits on "baby 81" (including many for the rock album), I was surprised to see only ~600 hits [5] that associated "Baby 81" with his name (of which there are at least 3 spellings, incidentally). If the name has had only limited exposure in print media, then there is more of an argument that some right to privacy should still be considered, and that these events may effectively fade from view. When I started looking at this, I was expecting to find the opposite, but now I am not sure. Dragons flight 13:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out, considering the identification of the baby is the whole reason this event is notable, readers will not only be expecting the name, but will be looking for it as a part of the content of the article. Why do we have articles? Why do we inform people?
Bob Saget could have been called Bob Tomson, and had the exact same career. Does that make his name illrelevant in his article? No, because the name is a fundamental fact that people are going to be looking for. -- Ned Scott 18:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
We can't see into the future and we don't crystal ball. We can't say that such and such a source will disappear, or that such an event won't be remembered. We can write articles based on significant events, however, and this one was.
Let us imagine for a moment that a piece is going to be written in any newspaper/journal/whatever about "Baby 81". Do you think they'd omit the name? I very much doubt it. violet/riga (t) 18:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
[De-indenting] Self-publicising suggests to me that they actively promoted themselves within the media community, which is markedly different from being approached by the media and agreeing to interviews. It's not an all-or-nothing thing (which makes me think of the 5th amendment for some reason). Regardless, it looks like it's been two years since they're taken any part in interviews, which I think lends strength to the idea they're not seeking media attention. -- InkSplotch 21:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
InkSplotch ( talk · contribs) dropped by my talk page and asked whether I might add my own two cents to this debate, specifically in the light of the BDJ arbitration case. I should emphasize that I'm doing this in a strictly private capacity--I was recused from that case and played no part in its determination. Anyway, the two major points would seem to be whether the actual name of the baby is significant, and whether the inclusion of the name violates WP:BLP, as clarified in the recent arbitration case.
On the first question, a glance at the sources suggests that all sources reporting on the matter after the determination of parentage use the child's name; what's more, they use the name in the lead paragraph. This includes such reputable news organizations as BBC News and Reuters. This suggests that these organizations consider this information pertinent to the reader. As a reference work, Wikipedia is obligated to reflect mainstream coverage. We're not talking about forums, blogs, or other forms of backstairs-jobbery. We're talking about organizations who have established policies of omitting the names of minors when deemed appropriate, and they did not excercise said option in these cases.
Now, it has been argued that Wikipedia, as a reference work, should take a conservative stance on biographies of living persons. I think the background of BLP is sufficiently well-known to be omitted, so I'll move on to the ruling. Principle #2 stated, in part, that "Wikipedia aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly. This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions." The operative part of principle #3 states that "in cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm.""
Therefore, the question is whether the inclusion of name violates basic human dignity. First of all, in this case we're dealing not with another person's actions, but force majeure, and the incident has a salutory outcome. By highlighting the event we do not give aid or comfort to a tormentor, nor do we mock the subject. As a practical matter, the name of the subject is widely reported in the sources from which Wikipedia draws its information, and it is reasonable to assume that individuals seeking information on the subject will search by name or search by "Baby 81" hoping to find the name. In cases of relatives being re-united the detail of family--including name and circumstance--is of prime interest.
On the question of "saddling" Baby 81 with this event, that was already accomplished by an Act of God. It is the formative event of that child's life and it is idle to pretend that it can be separated from his life story. It is not an invasion of privacy, at least not at this time, to give a name already widely reported by the media. If we are going to have an article, and in that article link to publicly-available websites that give the name, we're accomplishing nothing by withholding the name ourselves. A more central question would be whether this event is important to the overall narrative of the 2004 earthquake; its provenance and cultural impact suggests that it is.
(Exhales) That was longer than it was supposed to be, but there it is. I don't see any reason to keep the name out, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Mackensen (talk) 23:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It's been a few days since the last comment; are we ready to unprotect the page? Mackensen (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussions here and at BLP talk seem to have died down. I've unprotected but will not include the name as that would seem like an abuse of admin powers. I'm convinced the name should be included, especially given the fact that the redirects point here. violet/riga (t) 21:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Without explanation (no, citing WP:BLP is not an explanation), Tony Sidaway ( talk · contribs) removed the name again. There's certainly no consensus for such a move on the talk page, and that the article stayed static for a month suggests, strongly, that there was no issue. I am concerned that this move was prompted by the pending, if ill-conceived, arbitration request concerning Violet Riga. I hope not. Articles aren't counters. Mackensen (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment: As a rule, people known popularly by a nickname, or abbreviated name, usually have their BIO articles under their proper name. Thus Baroness Knight of Collingtree redirects to Jill Knight, Mr Hands (the shock-phenomenon) (via disambiguation) redirects to Kenneth Pinyan, and so on. WP:NOT#CENSORED and as noted the name is published widely and not exactly a secret. Baby 81 should probably follow common practice and redirect to the actual name. FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This is not an article about the baby. It is an article about the incident. It could have happened exactly the same with any other baby. I moved the article to a new name, and then - since the article on the incident doesn't actually require the baby's name - removed the personally-identifying information. DS 01:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This is subverting the talk page discussion through the back door; the question of what an article 'requires' is irrelevant--articles don't require things, readers do. Does our article on Benjamin Disraeli 'require' an account of his years in opposition? No, and a good thing too, because it doesn't say much on the matter. However, our readers might want that information. A few sections up I laid out several reasons for including the name, not the least of which was that the very sources upon which our article relies do, and Wikipedia is supposed to report on what the sources say. I'm very disappointed that actual discussion has been avoided through this maneuver, which is clever without being wholly convincing. Mackensen (talk) 01:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that Baby 81 be turned into a disambiguation page - I have drafted a suggestion at User:WJBscribe/Drafts/1. Again, this has no direct impact on whether or not this article includes "the name". WjB scribe 02:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose a compromise (that had not accured to me in previous discussions) - this phrasing means the name is included as both the family's surname and child's first name appear. But breaking up the name avoids the full name being so prominent. Is that any more acceptable to people? WjB scribe 02:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Article has been protected from moving, the redirect has been protected as well.
You're all well-seasoned Wikipedians here. Please discuss your reasoning and try to come to a compromise with the other parties before doing any further renames.
If you feel this message is specifically pointing to you then you're the one who needs to concentrate on how best to compromise. :)
Thanks, play nice. ~Kylu ( u| t) 02:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
My sole recent edit on this page was to remove the reference to the infant's name, which I consider to be unnecessary. That it is unnecessary I consider to be self-evident. This could have happened to my children, or yours. This kind of event does not give Wikipedia the right to put our children's names into articles in an encyclopedia. Private individuals have a presumptive right to privacy. There should be special circumstances to justify their use in an encyclopedia. The actions of the press sometimes create accidental "celebrities" that are used to feed the hungry entertainment machine. Wikipedia is not part of that entertainment machine (at least, not unless we decided that it should be). -- Tony Sidaway 03:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Before I involve myself in these discussions again I'd just like to remind people of the very basic thing of avoiding double redirects - if you move an article sort out the incoming links. violet/riga (t) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This latest edit war seems to stem from the idea of "Now the consensus decision is old I'll try to have my own way again". BLP policy clearly states that names are allowed if multiple sources do so and to claim its removed "based on BLP" without any discussion or explanation is just wrong and rude to those of us that have tried to get this sorted for months now. It's also plain daft to not include the name when it is used as an incoming redirect. Exactly what will that achieve? Since you couldn't delete those redirects yourself Tony surely it would have been best to come and discuss the way forward on this talk page? All you achieved was to restart this silly battle. violet/riga (t) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Somebody has restored the name of the infant to this article. I have removed it again. Please reconsider this vile, trollish, and unnecessary abuse of a small child's privacy. -- Tony Sidaway 23:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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A protected redirect, Baby 81 , needs redirect category ( rcat) templates added. Please modify it as follows:
#REDIRECT [[Baby 81 incident]] [[Category:Protected redirects]]
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I've renamed this article back to Baby 81 (its original name) and removed all references to the child's real name, for obvious reasons. -- Tony Sidaway 14:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a little bizarre, when a google search for "Baby 81" finds BBC reports like these [1] [2] [3] plus dozens more from other (non-Wikipedia-derived) sources.
Is this child's name a secret? Are we not permitted to have articles on minors now? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have followed your link, Tony, but I don't see the connection between two minors who were victims of crime (and presumably not particuarly notable, however horrific the crimes) and a child who was a "symbol of tsunami suffering". I repeat: are we being encouraged to delete all articles about any living person below a particular age? Why? -- ALoan (Talk) 23:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[←] You may be surprised at the number of articles I have written based on obituaries that appear in broadsheet newspapers. Newspapers, and the BBC, are excellent sources; not perfect, of course, but they have a reputation to defend, and have the time and funding to indulge in extensive fact-checking. But are you saying that they don't have ethics too? Or that their ethics are somehow inferior to the ethics of Wikipedia?
You seem to think it is somehow contrary to the purpose of an encyclopedia to include the name of a person who was involved in current (and in due course) historical) event - that the name is not notable, perhaps? I still don't see how this turns into a claim that BLP is in point. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
This is one of the reasons that people shouting "BLP" are encountering resistance. The name gets over 2000 hits and details an international story where the name was very public. Us censoring the name merely lessens our coverage of a significant world event. violet/riga (t) 23:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Right, so there are two admins and three others that believe that the name should be included despite what it says at WP:BLP. At which point does general consensus override the individual? Please don't say that consensus can't override policy because the issue is the reading of the policy and the consensus would be that it does not violate it. violet/riga (t) 07:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Tony, as far as I can see, the only person I can see arguing for omission of the name in this case is you. And there are plenty of other people her who disagree. I would say that consensus is very much against you here. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Interested readers may like to see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff, which seems to be the ArbCom case mentioned above. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
One side of the argument seems to be that if the sources include the name, we can. The other side seems to be that if the sources include the name, we can choose not to (letting readers go to the sources to find out the name if they want to). First, to forestall the "Wikipedia needs to record all of history" argument, we should assume that all information included in a Wikipedia article will still be available in various sources in 10 years time (maybe not the same ones, but some sources should still remain). If not, then history has passed its verdict and the information should be passed from Wikipedia to a "possibly this happened but we aren't really sure any more" wiki. In that vein, I tend to agree that including the name is not necessary here. Once the living person dies, their name can be placed in the article. The only other issue I have a question about is how Google searches work if a name appears in a Wikipedia page title, as opposed to appearing simply in a brief footnote to an article. Is the result on a Google search the same? Carcharoth 11:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
There appear to be four editors and one anon in favour of the inclusion of Baby 81's name. The relevant BLP clause begins "Editors should consider" and includes "Evaluate on a case by case basis". This clearly states that we have to make judgements for each article. I believe that consensus is leaning in favour of inclusion and propose to add it. I await any further comments before doing so. violet/riga (t) 19:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
As it appears from this discussion that the concensus was, based on WP:BLP was to include the child's name, I have reverted the most recent change to delete the name. Bielle 23:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This issue needs much wider discussion I think. Perhaps a request for comment to get as much outside opinion as possible? Multiple reverts can really be justified by a consensus of so few people. In light of the "Do no harm" principle as outlined by ArbCom, I think the name should be removed pending full discussion. Are people agreeable to an WP:RFC/ARTICLES? WjB scribe 03:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
How on earth could the article cause any harm to this child? Be realistic here, people. Wikipedia or not, this event is forever apart of this kid's life, and whether or not the name is said makes no difference. Removing fundamental information for an article for such a reason is retarded. Who are you protecting? Will the kid magically not now about all this, because the English Wikipedia article didn't mention their name? Removing the name is a perfect example of BLP being incorrectly applied. -- Ned Scott 03:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It's an anecdotal event that transpired through no fault of the child and that was resolved without any reported lasting injury or negative impact on the child, right? I don't see the "negative" concern here. Yes, the baby is going to be followed by this anecdote during the rest of his/her life, but I don't see significant harm arising from that. No more harmful than say being the first baby of the millenium, or the child of a celebrity. Consider, once this child grows up, would someone hearing this anecdote be likely to treat the person negatively, or hold the event against them? That seems unlikely to me. Given that I don't see what the potential harm is, I don't see any reason for excluding the well-known details of the child's identity. Dragons flight 05:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Now that I've had a chance to gather my thoughts, let me explain why I believe we should omit Baby 81's full name from this article. As I see it the problem is the risk of labelling this boy for the rest of his life as "that baby that survived the earthquake and was fought over by those couples". Its not a terrible label and much better than "that rape victim" or "that kid that accidentally killed his mother", but it is a label nonetheless. Most people claim the right to decide for themselves who they are and what to share with others about their lives. I believe most dislike being labelled based on one event in their life or a particular characteristic they have. We will probably never be able to give a rounded image of the person that baby grows up to be, but we may well immortalise him as Baby 81. Whereas other reports of the incident will probably fade from google overtime and old newslinks no longer be available, our articles are likely to maintain a high google presence forever. Already it is common for people to "google" those they meet, those they might employ, those they might date. We have a responsibility as a result. In my opinion we can give our readers all the information about Baby 81 they need without including his name. But we should give that person a chance to decide in later life who he wants to be and whether he wants to share this element of his life with people he meets. We should respect his privacy. WjB scribe 06:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Note that we have an article on Jessica McClure, the baby (now grown up) who was rescued from a well in 1986. Would you have argued, if Wikipedia existed in 1986, to exclude the name from the article? Would it have been OK to add the name after she was no longer a minor? (But isn't some of the "possible damage" cited, like them being Googled by people considering them for a job or a date, more likely to happen once they're adults than while they're still kids?) If there was a Wikipedia in the wizarding world, would people there have argued for excluding the name of Harry Potter in the early years when he was solely famous as the "Boy Who Lived" from an incident in his infanthood? Maybe the article would be renamed to The Boy who Lived, and of course due to wizarding taboos the name of his opponent would be He Who Must Not Be Named rather than straightforwardly as Lord Voldemort. *Dan T.* 11:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been over this page twice now, and while I don't see how a clear consensus to include the name exists (sorry, it just looks pretty muddy right now to me) it looks like recent wheel warring that showed up on AN/I occurred because some believe it does. So, I'd just like to throw my two cents in here, and say I agree with the concerns that this inclusion goes against BLP; particularly WJBscribe's comments at the top of this section. I would oppose including the name in this article, and as a redirect. I think this article does just fine at recording the event without needing to delve so far into anyone's privacy...especially as the article itself indicates the family is avoiding media attention. That seems clear to me, but I respect that others disagree. I just want to add my voice here. --
InkSplotch 18:02, 26 July 2007 (UTC) Striking part of my comments. I still am not sure consensus is clear here, but my concerns that this articles reinforces a 'label' as WJBscribe describes have been greatly lessened. --
InkSplotch 03:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, of all the things to do right now you choose to edit war? 1RR please! violet/riga (t) 08:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
That ArbCom ruling that User:Daniel alludes to is sensible. However, who has agreed that this article does any "harm" to its subject? The "do no harm" decree was composed in response to an article mocking Chinese boy for being fat. This is not a similar case and, though the inclusion of the name is controversial (among Wikipedia editors--not the media at large), it is not controversial for the reasons surrounding the ArbCom case.-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back
One of the arguments here is whether or not the name will be so obviously associated with this event in the future that trying to hide it is moot. Though there are ~400,000 hits on "baby 81" (including many for the rock album), I was surprised to see only ~600 hits [5] that associated "Baby 81" with his name (of which there are at least 3 spellings, incidentally). If the name has had only limited exposure in print media, then there is more of an argument that some right to privacy should still be considered, and that these events may effectively fade from view. When I started looking at this, I was expecting to find the opposite, but now I am not sure. Dragons flight 13:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out, considering the identification of the baby is the whole reason this event is notable, readers will not only be expecting the name, but will be looking for it as a part of the content of the article. Why do we have articles? Why do we inform people?
Bob Saget could have been called Bob Tomson, and had the exact same career. Does that make his name illrelevant in his article? No, because the name is a fundamental fact that people are going to be looking for. -- Ned Scott 18:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
We can't see into the future and we don't crystal ball. We can't say that such and such a source will disappear, or that such an event won't be remembered. We can write articles based on significant events, however, and this one was.
Let us imagine for a moment that a piece is going to be written in any newspaper/journal/whatever about "Baby 81". Do you think they'd omit the name? I very much doubt it. violet/riga (t) 18:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
[De-indenting] Self-publicising suggests to me that they actively promoted themselves within the media community, which is markedly different from being approached by the media and agreeing to interviews. It's not an all-or-nothing thing (which makes me think of the 5th amendment for some reason). Regardless, it looks like it's been two years since they're taken any part in interviews, which I think lends strength to the idea they're not seeking media attention. -- InkSplotch 21:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
InkSplotch ( talk · contribs) dropped by my talk page and asked whether I might add my own two cents to this debate, specifically in the light of the BDJ arbitration case. I should emphasize that I'm doing this in a strictly private capacity--I was recused from that case and played no part in its determination. Anyway, the two major points would seem to be whether the actual name of the baby is significant, and whether the inclusion of the name violates WP:BLP, as clarified in the recent arbitration case.
On the first question, a glance at the sources suggests that all sources reporting on the matter after the determination of parentage use the child's name; what's more, they use the name in the lead paragraph. This includes such reputable news organizations as BBC News and Reuters. This suggests that these organizations consider this information pertinent to the reader. As a reference work, Wikipedia is obligated to reflect mainstream coverage. We're not talking about forums, blogs, or other forms of backstairs-jobbery. We're talking about organizations who have established policies of omitting the names of minors when deemed appropriate, and they did not excercise said option in these cases.
Now, it has been argued that Wikipedia, as a reference work, should take a conservative stance on biographies of living persons. I think the background of BLP is sufficiently well-known to be omitted, so I'll move on to the ruling. Principle #2 stated, in part, that "Wikipedia aims to be a reputable encyclopedia, not a tabloid. Our articles must not serve primarily to mock or disparage their subjects, whether directly or indirectly. This is of particularly profound importance when dealing with individuals whose notability stems largely from their being victims of another's actions." The operative part of principle #3 states that "in cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm.""
Therefore, the question is whether the inclusion of name violates basic human dignity. First of all, in this case we're dealing not with another person's actions, but force majeure, and the incident has a salutory outcome. By highlighting the event we do not give aid or comfort to a tormentor, nor do we mock the subject. As a practical matter, the name of the subject is widely reported in the sources from which Wikipedia draws its information, and it is reasonable to assume that individuals seeking information on the subject will search by name or search by "Baby 81" hoping to find the name. In cases of relatives being re-united the detail of family--including name and circumstance--is of prime interest.
On the question of "saddling" Baby 81 with this event, that was already accomplished by an Act of God. It is the formative event of that child's life and it is idle to pretend that it can be separated from his life story. It is not an invasion of privacy, at least not at this time, to give a name already widely reported by the media. If we are going to have an article, and in that article link to publicly-available websites that give the name, we're accomplishing nothing by withholding the name ourselves. A more central question would be whether this event is important to the overall narrative of the 2004 earthquake; its provenance and cultural impact suggests that it is.
(Exhales) That was longer than it was supposed to be, but there it is. I don't see any reason to keep the name out, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise. Mackensen (talk) 23:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It's been a few days since the last comment; are we ready to unprotect the page? Mackensen (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussions here and at BLP talk seem to have died down. I've unprotected but will not include the name as that would seem like an abuse of admin powers. I'm convinced the name should be included, especially given the fact that the redirects point here. violet/riga (t) 21:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Without explanation (no, citing WP:BLP is not an explanation), Tony Sidaway ( talk · contribs) removed the name again. There's certainly no consensus for such a move on the talk page, and that the article stayed static for a month suggests, strongly, that there was no issue. I am concerned that this move was prompted by the pending, if ill-conceived, arbitration request concerning Violet Riga. I hope not. Articles aren't counters. Mackensen (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment: As a rule, people known popularly by a nickname, or abbreviated name, usually have their BIO articles under their proper name. Thus Baroness Knight of Collingtree redirects to Jill Knight, Mr Hands (the shock-phenomenon) (via disambiguation) redirects to Kenneth Pinyan, and so on. WP:NOT#CENSORED and as noted the name is published widely and not exactly a secret. Baby 81 should probably follow common practice and redirect to the actual name. FT2 ( Talk | email) 01:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This is not an article about the baby. It is an article about the incident. It could have happened exactly the same with any other baby. I moved the article to a new name, and then - since the article on the incident doesn't actually require the baby's name - removed the personally-identifying information. DS 01:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This is subverting the talk page discussion through the back door; the question of what an article 'requires' is irrelevant--articles don't require things, readers do. Does our article on Benjamin Disraeli 'require' an account of his years in opposition? No, and a good thing too, because it doesn't say much on the matter. However, our readers might want that information. A few sections up I laid out several reasons for including the name, not the least of which was that the very sources upon which our article relies do, and Wikipedia is supposed to report on what the sources say. I'm very disappointed that actual discussion has been avoided through this maneuver, which is clever without being wholly convincing. Mackensen (talk) 01:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose that Baby 81 be turned into a disambiguation page - I have drafted a suggestion at User:WJBscribe/Drafts/1. Again, this has no direct impact on whether or not this article includes "the name". WjB scribe 02:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose a compromise (that had not accured to me in previous discussions) - this phrasing means the name is included as both the family's surname and child's first name appear. But breaking up the name avoids the full name being so prominent. Is that any more acceptable to people? WjB scribe 02:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. Article has been protected from moving, the redirect has been protected as well.
You're all well-seasoned Wikipedians here. Please discuss your reasoning and try to come to a compromise with the other parties before doing any further renames.
If you feel this message is specifically pointing to you then you're the one who needs to concentrate on how best to compromise. :)
Thanks, play nice. ~Kylu ( u| t) 02:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
My sole recent edit on this page was to remove the reference to the infant's name, which I consider to be unnecessary. That it is unnecessary I consider to be self-evident. This could have happened to my children, or yours. This kind of event does not give Wikipedia the right to put our children's names into articles in an encyclopedia. Private individuals have a presumptive right to privacy. There should be special circumstances to justify their use in an encyclopedia. The actions of the press sometimes create accidental "celebrities" that are used to feed the hungry entertainment machine. Wikipedia is not part of that entertainment machine (at least, not unless we decided that it should be). -- Tony Sidaway 03:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Before I involve myself in these discussions again I'd just like to remind people of the very basic thing of avoiding double redirects - if you move an article sort out the incoming links. violet/riga (t) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This latest edit war seems to stem from the idea of "Now the consensus decision is old I'll try to have my own way again". BLP policy clearly states that names are allowed if multiple sources do so and to claim its removed "based on BLP" without any discussion or explanation is just wrong and rude to those of us that have tried to get this sorted for months now. It's also plain daft to not include the name when it is used as an incoming redirect. Exactly what will that achieve? Since you couldn't delete those redirects yourself Tony surely it would have been best to come and discuss the way forward on this talk page? All you achieved was to restart this silly battle. violet/riga (t) 10:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Somebody has restored the name of the infant to this article. I have removed it again. Please reconsider this vile, trollish, and unnecessary abuse of a small child's privacy. -- Tony Sidaway 23:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Baby 81 has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
A protected redirect, Baby 81 , needs redirect category ( rcat) templates added. Please modify it as follows:
#REDIRECT [[Baby 81 incident]] [[Category:Protected redirects]]
#REDIRECT [[Baby 81 incident]] {{Redr|from move|from related phrase|mentioned in hatnote|printworthy}}
Template Redr is an alias for the {{ This is a redirect}} template, which is used to sort redirects into one or more categories. As long as {{ pp-protected}} and/or {{ pp-move}} will suffice, the This is a redirect template will detect the protection level(s) and categorize the redirect automatically. (Also, the categories will be automatically removed when and if protection is lifted.) Thank you in advance! Painius 21:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)