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I don't see why this shouldn't be in the Turkish literature category - it is written in a Turkic language, after all. -- Danny Yee 23:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm still confused as to why this article is controversial. "Turkish" is a language group as well as a nationality. But maybe we should have a category Central Asian literature? -- Danny Yee 00:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the section about Anatolian Turkish, because it is totally off-topic. First of all, Chagatay had a different writing system and pronunciation, much different from Anatolian Turkish (while Turkish maintains a strict vowel harmony, Chagatay - as well as Uzbek - lacks such a vowel harmony due to the immense influence of Persian and Arabic). As such, writing Chagatay with modified Turkish letters is misleading. Secodnly, the written text had nothing to do with the article. And thirdly, the Baburnama has absolutely no affiliation with Anatolia, Turkey, or the Turkish language. Tājik ( talk) 15:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
By the way checked the Uzbek wikipedia and it has more correct versions of his works. Here is an example (although again it should not be written in Latin):
Xati binafsha, xadi lola, zulfi rayhondur, Bahori husnda yuzi ajab gulistondur.
Engi, mengi oyu dagʻi yuzi, soʻzi gulu mul, Qadi ravonu tani jonu erni marjondur.
Qoshida chin, koʻzida kiynu angabin labida, Soʻzida zahru lekin tilida darmondur.
Qoshinggʻa koʻp bora olmon, netay oraliqda, Yoshim tishing duridin ayru bahri ummondur.
Oʻtumni tez etasen har tarafgʻa sekritib ot, Samandi noz inonini bir beri yondur.
Ne nav' vasf qilay suvrating latofatini Ki, husnunga sening, ey ruh, aql hayrondur.
Jafovu javr agar qilsa, Boburo, netayin, Ne ixtiyor manga, harne qilsa sultondur.
Most of the words are Persian or Arabic words that were Persianized and enter Chagatay and this would not be understandble for the average Anatolian Turkish speaker today. Here is a sample of Persian words: Binafsha,Lala, Bahar, Gulistan, Gul, Mul, Mang, Ravan, Tan, Jon, Chin, Angabin, So'zi(saaz),Lab, Darman, Ghashang, durd, Samand, har, ne, agar,noz, neh, Zahr, and others.. the Arabic words are (and these are Persianized Arabic words and many of them don't have the same meaning) are: Ikhtiyar, sultan, hayran, ummon, marjan, Bahri, Ajab, Husn, lekin,Zulf, Xad, Xat, Rayhan, taraf, aql, ruh, jafa, and more. Or take the first line: "Xati binafsha, xadi lola, zulfi rayhondur" only the "dur" is turkish.
Note I just took a ghazal from the Uzbek version, but I am saying is that selective quoting should not be done. Also the quote brought by the user seems to have been altered "hat" instead of "xat". -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 00:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
"sentence structure, morphology"
I removed this part, because it doesn't make a sense, it sounds like Chagatai language was distorted form of Persian language. and please, contributors, instead of highlighting his cultural background, provide more information about memoir itself. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.213.207.104 (
talk) 06:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
E. M. Forster, a twentieth century English novelist noted for, among other things, A Passage To India, has a brief discussion of Babur and the Baburnama in his book, Abinger Harvest [1], pp. 288 - 292 (.pdf 295 - 299). Wheeler M. Thackston, whose translation the Wikipedia article mentions, quotes the following passage in the introduction to his translation:
"Geography is equally trying; as Babur scuttles over the earth a mist of streams, and villages, and mountains arises, from the Jaxartes, in the centre of Asia, to the Nerbudda, in the centre of India. Was this where the man with the melon fell overboard? Or is it the raft where half of us took spirits and the rest bhang, and quarrelled in consequence? We can’t be sure. Is that an elephant? If so, we must have left Afghanistan. No: we must be in Ferghana again; it’s a yak. We never know where we were last, though Agra stands out as the curtain falls, and behind it, as a tomb against the skyline, Kabul. Lists of flowers, fruits, handwritings, headdresses. .... We who are not scholars may grow tired."
Yet Forster had a profound appreciation for the Baburnama, writing elsewhere in the same article:
"Fresh, yet mature, the Memoirs leave an ambiguous and exquisite impression behind. We are admitted into the writer’s inmost confidence, yet that confidence is not, as in most cases, an enervating chamber; it is a mountain stream, arched by the skies of early manhood. And since to his honesty, and energy, and sensitiveness, Babur added a warm heart, since he desired empire chiefly that he might advance his friends, the reader may discover a companion uncommon among the dead and amongst kings."
This does not quite belong in the entry itself but the Talk page is perhaps an appropriate home. Larry Koenigsberg ( talk) 23:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
References
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baburnama was written in flawless turkish which was translated into persian during the reign of baburs grandson, akbar 103.163.200.182 ( talk) 15:41, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
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I don't see why this shouldn't be in the Turkish literature category - it is written in a Turkic language, after all. -- Danny Yee 23:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm still confused as to why this article is controversial. "Turkish" is a language group as well as a nationality. But maybe we should have a category Central Asian literature? -- Danny Yee 00:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the section about Anatolian Turkish, because it is totally off-topic. First of all, Chagatay had a different writing system and pronunciation, much different from Anatolian Turkish (while Turkish maintains a strict vowel harmony, Chagatay - as well as Uzbek - lacks such a vowel harmony due to the immense influence of Persian and Arabic). As such, writing Chagatay with modified Turkish letters is misleading. Secodnly, the written text had nothing to do with the article. And thirdly, the Baburnama has absolutely no affiliation with Anatolia, Turkey, or the Turkish language. Tājik ( talk) 15:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
By the way checked the Uzbek wikipedia and it has more correct versions of his works. Here is an example (although again it should not be written in Latin):
Xati binafsha, xadi lola, zulfi rayhondur, Bahori husnda yuzi ajab gulistondur.
Engi, mengi oyu dagʻi yuzi, soʻzi gulu mul, Qadi ravonu tani jonu erni marjondur.
Qoshida chin, koʻzida kiynu angabin labida, Soʻzida zahru lekin tilida darmondur.
Qoshinggʻa koʻp bora olmon, netay oraliqda, Yoshim tishing duridin ayru bahri ummondur.
Oʻtumni tez etasen har tarafgʻa sekritib ot, Samandi noz inonini bir beri yondur.
Ne nav' vasf qilay suvrating latofatini Ki, husnunga sening, ey ruh, aql hayrondur.
Jafovu javr agar qilsa, Boburo, netayin, Ne ixtiyor manga, harne qilsa sultondur.
Most of the words are Persian or Arabic words that were Persianized and enter Chagatay and this would not be understandble for the average Anatolian Turkish speaker today. Here is a sample of Persian words: Binafsha,Lala, Bahar, Gulistan, Gul, Mul, Mang, Ravan, Tan, Jon, Chin, Angabin, So'zi(saaz),Lab, Darman, Ghashang, durd, Samand, har, ne, agar,noz, neh, Zahr, and others.. the Arabic words are (and these are Persianized Arabic words and many of them don't have the same meaning) are: Ikhtiyar, sultan, hayran, ummon, marjan, Bahri, Ajab, Husn, lekin,Zulf, Xad, Xat, Rayhan, taraf, aql, ruh, jafa, and more. Or take the first line: "Xati binafsha, xadi lola, zulfi rayhondur" only the "dur" is turkish.
Note I just took a ghazal from the Uzbek version, but I am saying is that selective quoting should not be done. Also the quote brought by the user seems to have been altered "hat" instead of "xat". -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 00:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
"sentence structure, morphology"
I removed this part, because it doesn't make a sense, it sounds like Chagatai language was distorted form of Persian language. and please, contributors, instead of highlighting his cultural background, provide more information about memoir itself. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.213.207.104 (
talk) 06:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
E. M. Forster, a twentieth century English novelist noted for, among other things, A Passage To India, has a brief discussion of Babur and the Baburnama in his book, Abinger Harvest [1], pp. 288 - 292 (.pdf 295 - 299). Wheeler M. Thackston, whose translation the Wikipedia article mentions, quotes the following passage in the introduction to his translation:
"Geography is equally trying; as Babur scuttles over the earth a mist of streams, and villages, and mountains arises, from the Jaxartes, in the centre of Asia, to the Nerbudda, in the centre of India. Was this where the man with the melon fell overboard? Or is it the raft where half of us took spirits and the rest bhang, and quarrelled in consequence? We can’t be sure. Is that an elephant? If so, we must have left Afghanistan. No: we must be in Ferghana again; it’s a yak. We never know where we were last, though Agra stands out as the curtain falls, and behind it, as a tomb against the skyline, Kabul. Lists of flowers, fruits, handwritings, headdresses. .... We who are not scholars may grow tired."
Yet Forster had a profound appreciation for the Baburnama, writing elsewhere in the same article:
"Fresh, yet mature, the Memoirs leave an ambiguous and exquisite impression behind. We are admitted into the writer’s inmost confidence, yet that confidence is not, as in most cases, an enervating chamber; it is a mountain stream, arched by the skies of early manhood. And since to his honesty, and energy, and sensitiveness, Babur added a warm heart, since he desired empire chiefly that he might advance his friends, the reader may discover a companion uncommon among the dead and amongst kings."
This does not quite belong in the entry itself but the Talk page is perhaps an appropriate home. Larry Koenigsberg ( talk) 23:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
References
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:51, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
baburnama was written in flawless turkish which was translated into persian during the reign of baburs grandson, akbar 103.163.200.182 ( talk) 15:41, 3 March 2023 (UTC)