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Please check the images posted on this article. Several of these are images of some other monuments and not the Babari masjid - especially the images of the interior. I had visited Babari Masjid in 1991 with my family. The interiors of the monument were absolutely plain, with no carvings or inscriptions in Arabic. Also, it was covered in white plaster, with no ornate decorations of any sort. Please verify the images with Archaeological Survey of India or some other reliable sources rather than this so called reuters reporter, which I am sure is a fake. Let us not distort the facts while presenting the case in such a sensitive debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.245.125.3 ( talk) 17:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I took this sentence out because it was obviously just added by someone later since the issue is discussed in the second paragraph with a more nuetral POV. "It was constructed by destroying the original Ram temple in Ayodhyaya"
I do not understand why there is all this hatred. Hindus and Mulims have lived together in peace for centuries. Why should some radicals disrupt this peace. It doesnt matter where the Babri Masjid site was for Hindus or Muslims. Just build a temple and a mosque there, and problem will be solved. Do not let communal differences bring down India.
The destruction signifies more than hatred. It shows that after 900 years of humiliation under Muslims, Hindus are finally taking a stand. Jai Hind! The Jews should follow our example, and deal with the Al-Aqsa Mosque in the same way.
Whoever he is - He is the darling of Hindutva Brigade and their revisionist agenda.So his views should be taken with a pinch...oh sorry !!!a handful of salt.
One does not know of him much.May be he is a paid mercenary for Hindutva cause.
lol...paid mercenary..yeah right...should I remind you that the Islamic charities pay for terrorists...a very peaceful and noble cause(I'm being sarcastic)....there are many nationalists who stick to a cause by heart and pride, not money.
I won't take his views into a neutral article without talking of his Hindutva allegiance.Ya- One thing we should make a difference between the Hinduism practiced by millions of moderate Indians and the Hindutva which is a Supremacist movement not unlike the British National Party
why should the Indian gov't protect missionaries? For breaking the law? Religious conversion is against the law in many states..whether you agree with it or not...its the law...If the missionaries break it, do they deserve protection?
I have not committed vandalism. I now provide reasons for my edits below: No, I put the muslim POV below the hindu one. This is so because the muslim pov starts out by criticizing the hindu POV, thus making it logically inconsistent for the muslim one to come first. Plus, the muslim POV part was strife with hate-speech against hindus and unsubstantiated, as well as unreferences stuff, which I have removed. The bit I have added is well-references from an article written by Koenraad Elst, who is neither Indian nor Hindu, but is a Belgian scholar of Indian studies. For instance:
I've heard this claim about that the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) to preach to India, and they found traces of his hair from his head. This can be from an authentic source (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud etc.. ) or it can be a forgery hadith. I'm not too sure about this, can someone research this up? Is there any authentic source?
62.189.60.30 15:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
He should thank the secular ethos..that allowed him to read RigVeda back to back and hark of the Hindu Glory
THe ideas expressed by him is similar to the generation of Communalists who are hell bent on their revisionist agenda
why have the lower Hindus created organisations which decry Hindu society why?
Enjoy yourself. At this point we are sufficiently powerful and well-connected to not care if fringe element nutjobs hate us.
Here are some links for you. Now our enemies may quiver in fear in the face of our newfound ally:
http://peace.heebz.com/india.html http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10445
http://www.forward.com/issues/2004/04.01.16/living1.html http://www.indojudaic.com/index.htm http://www.hinduunity.org/jewsofindia.html http://www.indojudaic.com/Lecture_Topics/lecturehindujewish.html http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/Sharon_2003/sharon_000.htm http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper131.html
I'll say one thing. Your screed against your own people, this self-hatred that you ahow, is robably related more to your ignorance of Hinduism than anything else. Your misguided perception of muslims being some sort of 'opressed underclass' gels with the dialectic materialism of Karl Marx. Understand this, my friend. Secularism IS NOT A PREREQUISITE FOR DEMOCRACY! USA and Israel have proved that. The world is shifting towards faith-based governments like neo-conservatives and Likud/Kadima . If Hindus don't do that, we will be wiped out by muslims in a massive genocide (think they'll spare you? Think again). Being a low caste hindu is way better then being a Dhimmi or Kaffir. Don;t believe me? Ask the Hindus presently being hunted to extinction in Pakistan, or Bangladesh, or a kashmiri pandit. Or the Ba'haii Jews assaulted and murdered on the streets of Tehran, or Christians in Saudi Arabia, or anyone who is not a muslim in an Islamic Country. ( Pusyamitra Sunga 11:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
User Boss has added following personal POV while at the same time deleting reference to Gujarat Riots in a previous edit saying it was unrelated and a Leftist propoganda.
.....). However, most enquiry reports in India fail to satisfy all the parties.In retaliation, Muslim mafia, principally the D-Gang operated by Dawood Ibrahim Khaskar, the Konkanni Muslim and acolyte of former Mafia don Haji Mastan, staged a simultaneous, multiple bomb attacks in Bombay using RDX and whose toll is also not finally set. See 1993 Mumbai bombings.
Admin should keep an eye on his changes please.He should be made to cite mainstream media as an authentic source and not the Sangh Parivar
Rushdie 10:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, I like Rushdie [2] Rushdie 11:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The BBC, like any media source, has bias in some form. However, like I said, you may put it in if you want WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING. You think you're tough? You ain't seen nothin' yet bubba.
Plus, it's not just Saudis who finance BMAC, it's terrorists. There are financial links to the BMAC which, if the BMAC was in the US, would have the whole lot of them thrown in Guantanamo Bay. All muslims incite violence. When they read the Quaran it incites violence, because the Quran incites violence. The BMAC members read the Quran in their sessions, don't they? That's violence, right there. Now what? Are you going to bomb me for typing that? ( Netaji 11:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
Rushdie 11:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC) 11:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can you please extend the same courtesy to yourself of I will write your own words "WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING".
Rushdie 11:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's more: http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/dec/19arvind.htm
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Babri_Mosque_-_The_Ayodhya_Debate/id/1295615
Adapted from the Wikipedia article "The Ayodhya Debate", under the G.N U Free Docmentation License. Please also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
It is clear that the BMAC holds a hardline position on this issue, so much so that even OTHER MUSLIMS, like Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi and Asghar Ali Engineer disagree with them (now that's a doozy, they must be really crazy if even muslims get scared by them). Also, bear in mind that elemens in the Sangh Parivaar have suggested that the masjid be re-built side-by-side with the Ramjanmabhoomi mandir, but did the muslims agree? Nooooooooo. It's 'haraam' to coexist with infidels in any way, shape or form. Either convert them or kill them ,right Janaab? (
Netaji
12:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
and you can obviously write to him through http://www.csss-isla.com/
Ya - Last line - Read your comments again - "However, like I said, you may put it in if you want WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING. You think you're tough? You ain't seen nothin' yet bubba"
DID YOU FOLLOW YOURSELF WHAT YOU ARE ASKING OTHERS TO DO? HAVE YOU NOT REMOVED A LARGE PART OF THE ARTICLE AND EVEN WRITTEN YOUR OWN POV on the part "History According to the Muslims" Rushdie 15:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Please let me know what you think of these points... I hope we can work together to make this a better article. Graft 18:58, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
First of all, my view is not pro-Sangh or anti-Sangh or pro-Muslim or anything of that sort. I am interested in posting things in a scientific manner. On the points you made and some more new points:
1) The structure beneath the Babri ruins HAS been confirmed as a Hindu temple. Like it or not, it has happened. The excavations were overseen by all parties involved and once the confirmation happened, the same political parties which were eagerly supporting the excavations suddenly condemned the excavations.
2) "mysteriously appear" includes being placed there by activist/activists. Obviously, it had to be placed there. "mysteriously appear" means it was placed there. By whom we do not know. "mysteriously appear" also captures the fact that the discovery of placement came as a surprise.
Notice your biases here - going by your argument, we should add the word 'allegedly' before "placed by activists." Your points against Hindus are all assertions while the points which are grievances by Hindus are made as 'allegations.'
3) The mosque was disused. In fact, there was no one on the Muslim side who could claim ownership in a court of law. The only arguments made in court that it was not disused was a claim by a politician that he once saw one person praying there many years ago while going on a walk. Clearly, you do not understand the politics in India.
4) "However, the version presented, where you ascribe motives to the crowd (i.e., "anger at ... pandering to the Muslim vote bank") are wholly indefensible."
You point is well taken. I will delete it. I should not have added that part, but the crowd did go out of control and was angry at the police for barricading them. It was a motley crowd and you cannot say they were VHP activists.
5) "These findings were promptly rejected by the Communists and other political parties which depend on the Muslim vote bank." is certainly clearly partisan.
Come on, this is a fact. RSS itself originated as a reaction to pandering of Muslims (check out separate electorates for Muslims during British times.)
I am not sure how familiar you are with the politics of India, but BJP rode to power on these issues - scrapping of special status for the only Muslim majority state in India and treating all states as equal, scrapping of Shariat laws for Muslims (in particular, Muslim women are persecuted by Mullahs ruling in disputes, Shah Bano case was the flashpoint), Muslim educational institutions receiving subsidies while Hindus in India are banned from running educational institutions, all revenues from Hindu temples being appropriated by the Government which then subsidise Madrasas and of course the issue at Ayodhya.
6) Of the above, everyone of them is a legitimate issue except Ayodhya. I explain Ayodhya below in point number 7. Anyone with common sense will see that political parties indulge in unequal treatment only for getting votes. Anyone familiar with India will know that Muslims voting en-masse on the orders of the Mullah in the mosque is a reality and that is why Muslims were appeased.
7) Ayodhya was not a legitimate issue because it should not be legislated by politicians. It should be treated purely as a legal dispute and evidence should be seen in a scientific manner. Politicians should have kept off completely. However, no political party in India thought on these lines. I don't blame them for it. They are not highly educated people to figure out that it was a legal issue to begin with.
8) The part about LK Advani pleading in city after city that Hindus and Muslims should jointly shift the structure brick by brick and he will get the Hindus to fund for it is a fact.
You should stop stringing together allegations and writing up an article. That is the hallmark of a poor journalist. That is an indirect way of sneaking in POVs. Please don't be biased. It is bad enough that India has been devastated repeatedly by all the known forms of unlibertarian groups - Christianity, Islam, Marxism, Socialists, Colonialists and indirectly by Pax Americana advocates who supported Osama bin Laden and Mujahideen.
OTOH, it has been unique in not seeing any anti-semitism and has welcomed people of all religions into its fold. When Parsis were persecuted, they came to India. When Jews were persecuted, they came to India and settled down. Syrian Christians found a home in India and when Tibetans were beaten out by Communists, they came to India too.
Choosing Communist sources and giving them prominence is unacceptable. Please desist from it.
9) I suggest you do proper research and you will see that the first recorded flareup was in the 19th century, and so was the first case filed in court. The British judge actually ruled that a temple had been destroyed but he felt helpless and could not restore it as it would upset the public order.
10) Your point on posting references is well taken. I'll do that too in addition to deleting the reference to the reason for anger by the crowd as pandering to Muslim votes. I read your comment after posting it. That is why you don't find it already in place.
I forgot to add one point. Notice the way you describe Rama as a mythical figure. That was an assertion. Would you make the same assertion regarding Jesus, Mohammed flying on a horse etc? I don't see you making such corrections there in an assertive tone. Clearly that shows your prejudices.
Observing Hindus around the world, I see that they do not strap themselves with explosives and blast themselves in public places, do not hijack planes and slam them into buildings and do not wage religious wars. I can only conclude that the allegations against Hindus being the most evil people on earth is fiction.
I agree about the mythical figure part. My theory about all of these figures is that there must have been someone somewhere with some small following and the followers built up fiction about these figures. My point is the unequal treatment of various religions - Christianity and Judaism is usually treated as history while assertions about the "mythical" nature of other religions is made. I have heard the term "Hindu mythology" but never "Christian mythology."
BTW, Organiser is a mouthpiece of RSS and Anand Patwardhan is a known Communist sympathiser. However, the piece about the evidence at Ayodhya must have been a good one because the facts are on their side.
Unfortunately, India's media as well as academics were controlled by the Communists until the 1990s when the stranglehold on the academia was broken. That is why everything is very contentious in India - Aryan Invasion Theory was made up by Max Mueller, a missionary who fitted it into the claim that Biblical creation occured around 3987 BCE, treatment of all events as class struggles (Hindu vs Muslim fits into this), hiding of Muslim atrocities - travel across North India and not a single temple which is undamaged is older than 150 years though the civilization is 1000s of years old while South India which escaped Islamic rule has very old temples in all their splendour, branding Hindus as evil - evidence shows the contrary, indians are peaceful people who welcomed people of other religions over the ages while they themselves never fought back when they were evicted by Idi Amin, by the dictators in Burma and even puny Fiji.
To let you know where I'm coming from, I am an agnost and a libertarian. I've created a new id - LibertarianAnarchist for convenience. I am still learning the format to make an entry. So pardon me if you find anything incomplete. I'll post the references you suggested.
OneGuy, are you being deliberately obtuse? The previous paragraph contains text that clearly states that the Archaeological Survey of India found evidence of a temple structure. It's inappropriate for you to insert a paragraph that says "no evidence has been found", in direct contradiction of the previous paragraph. Edit it so it is in line with the above text, fine, but the way it's written is absurd. Graft 19:18, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No, you are being obtuse. You implied in the article that only Muslims dispute the finding of this Archaeological Survey. That's not the case. The ASI report was published in 2003. This quote from a non-Muslim historian is dated at May 2004, so clearly "Muslim groups" are not the only ones who dispute the claim. And here is another review of ASI report by Dr Sushil Shrivastava, a Professor at Allahabad University, the author of the book The Disputed Mosque: A Historical Inquiry [9]. Clearly some experts think ASI report doesn't show evidence of Temple structure OneGuy 00:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The edits done on 15 and 16 January deleted prior information and added POV material. We are all trying to be NPOV on wikipedia, so let's have a fair representation of both sides. This demands some effort and good will from both sides.
Furthermore, there are some severe inaccuracies. For example, there is the following instance: "Richard M Eaton, an American historian of medieval India, in his Essays on Islam and Indian History documents desecration of all Hindu temples between 1192 and 1760. The total adds up to 80."
This is ridiculous. First of all, Eaton in his controversial book does not claim that this list is exhaustive. And, if we look at the list of eighty cases, there is for example this instance: “1094: Benares, Ghurid army”. This doesn't mean the Ghurid Army destroyed just one temple, because if we take the time to look at the sources he used, we read the Ghurid royal army “destroyed nearly one thousand temples, and raised mosques on their foundations”. So this "eigthty" neeeds some zeros added.
Here are some links, for reference:
--
Kdlb 21:13, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
None of the edits by Lalit Shastri quotes Richard M Eaton, so I don't know why you bring him into this discussion. Regarding a Personal Point of View, why do you bring that up here - Instead of using hackneyed cliques kindly give specific examples where we have violated our strict neutrality or shut up.
The edits made, represent a brief and factual account of the events at Ayhodya when the Mosque was destroyed the sources quoted are Time magazine journalists Jefferson Penberthy and Anita Pratap - These journalists are quoted by name as they are considered credible witnesses by the High Court of Allahabad where they gave evidence against LK Advani who faces crimnal charges.
Many other witnesses were present and amongst the journalists there. The BBC crew filmed the destruction and part of the narrative is from the BBC news team. We are grateful to Syed Naqi Editor of India's leading newspaper the Tribune for also describing the events. A personal friend of Lilit Shastri, Rahul Bajpai of Reuters was also assigned to cover Ahyodya and the mosque since 1990. The narrative is taken from these sources and you can contact them to confirm.
Also quoted on the myth of a Hindu temple being there are Professor Gopal head of Social Sciences & history at the Jawharlal Nehru University and son of Dr Radhakrisnan President of India, & Romilla Thapar Historian of Ancient India also from the JUNU. Romilla Thapar is advisor to the Govt of India on Ancient Indian history and is amongst a panel which overseas the content of textbooks in Indian Schools.
We have also taken the point of view of the VHP, RSS and the BJP all complicit destroying the Temple and have described the behavior of their leaders Uma Bharati and LK Advani who encouraged the mob from a podium constructed by the VHP so that their leadershp could witness the destruction.
However if there are those who disagree it goes without saying you can bring your points to this discussion but remember there are highly intelligent academics who lurk watching these pages - So please do not bring rubbish - But pearls of wisdom and knowledge are always welcome by almost everybody
Also It must be remembered this is not a Hindu - Muslim thing - We at Wikipedia are more enlightened than that - Racism, Bigotry, Obscurantism, ignorance and superstition are to be shunned by all men of wisdom
We do not care if it was a mosque or Temple although the historians who have any credibility Internationally say that there was no Temple.
We do care about the people slaughtered by the actions of those in India who try and spread communal strife, It is worth remembering during the rule of the RSS and its political wing the BJP twice more people died of communal violence in India then those that died in the Twin Towers.
User:81.1.123.238
Hello AladdinSE, Thanks for your good edits. Personally, until recently I didn't know very much about this debate, and I am still rather an outsider to this topic, that's why I won't contribute much to the article itself.
I think, the whole topic could have been solved more peacefully, if both parties had talked together, but unfortunately the whole thing was exploited by politicians on both sides.
As a sidenote, not all Muslims seem to adher to the views of the two "rivaling Masjid Committees", for example: Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said: "It is the duty of every nationalist Indian to protect the birthplace of Lord Rama to save India's honour, prestige and cultural heritage.... Anti-national and communal activities of Muslim fundamentalists are a blot on the entire community... It is the duty of all nationalist Muslims to expose such designs and accept the truth." Ahmed Zakaria is quoted by Farzana Versey as saying : "There is absolutely no question of our identity being submerged. The Babri Masjid committee does not represent all Muslims. How can two or three people decide ?"
Some of the problems in the article are: 1) Political debate. Still biased. Should also show the efforts that were made to solve the whole thing peacefully, and how this was undone by politicians. 2) Archaeological evidence. This is still biased and incomplete. 3) Literary evidence. The literary evidence should be discussed and/or criticised 4) The article has a lenghty discussion with pictures of the destruction of the mosque, but doesn't discuss the destruction of this and other temples by Babar and others. According to some sources, there were two destructions of this temple, one in the 12-13 century (the temple was after rebuilt) and one by Babar.
I think the article still needs some editing before it can be called npov, and believe someone will remove it from the npov disputes after this is done. A look at the viewpoints from both sides will confirm that the article still isn't npov. Regards, -- Kdlb 09:50, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Kdlb, I think your Eaton book edit was necessary and well placed. As far as the further discussion of alleged destruction of temples by Babur and others, that you want included, naturally there is going to be no where near as much material, much less pictures, as is available for the Babri destruction. We're talking 1992 versus the 16th century. Also, that the archeological evidence is incomplete and disputed is clearly noted in the article. Further discussion of literary evidence would be fine, if more contributors would site such work. When I did that last exhaustive edit, I deliberately left the Disputed Neutrality tag, because I believed that there was still bias and emotionalism evident, and was hoping new contributors with a fresh outlook would help remedy that. Perhaps I will revisit the article later. I have become too involved with all these extensive rewrites, and I need to regain an outside perspective.-- A. S. A. 12:06, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to put a hold on more pictures, the article cannot hold any more, al least not gracefully. I removed the recent addition of the mobs at the gate, since kar sevaks are shown in abundance already. I have reverted a number of Levy's edits because they added an emotional POV taint to the article, and belabored existing points. Others I agreed with, and simply reorganized them to better incorporate the new information with the flow of the article.-- A. S. A. 18:30, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
I see that anonymous user 81.1.118.31 had profound objections to my last revision, but has since withdrawn his/her Talk comments, I was only able to read them via History tracking. I'll tell you what I told Levy. I am not here to champion a cause, I am here to help create a proper encyclopedic article, free from emotional POV baggage. I have already clearly stated for the record that I believe the demolition was a disgrace. That does not mean I will allow the article to be a monotonous breast-beating Muslim-dominated propaganda bulletin. And I'll have you know I was the first contributor to introduce a picture of the Mosque, and the first to introduce a section on architecture and style [see history], so I am not only an editor of other people's submissions. Furthermore, you harm your cause by being so blatantly repetitious and one-sided. The general public reading the heavily POV versions of this article will more likely than not give small credence to Muslim viewpoints when they are so relentlessly thrust in their faces without proper recourse to other viewpoints. Balance and brevity should be our guiding principles.-- A. S. A. 21:23, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
Pictures of this mosque should not be resized a large part of the article is on the architecture of the mosque The present pictures support and complement the article. I have recverted them back to their original size. I also wish to point out 5that Kaal feels uncomfortable with these pictures as I can see no other reason why he should try to make them so tiny.
Please see Wikipedia's Picture Tutorial for guidelines on picture layout and format.-- A. S. A. 03:05, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
I made some expansions to the article and some reorganisations. I moved all matter relevant to the archaeology of the temple to the Ram Janmabhoomi article, because it discusses the existence or non-existence of the temple. Most of the history of the mosque after 1528 (or after 1194) is now in the Babri Mosque article. The Ayodhya article itself should of course only discuss the city, not the debate. I also expanded the archaeology and literature and other sections. In fact, a lot of important information was missing in the article and may still be missing. Hopefully other editors (like User:AladdinSE who has been one of the best editors to this article, as far as I can see) take a look at it and write something from their perspective. -- Kyuss 14:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
As a original contributor to this article along with J Levy and Richard Charlesworth of Cambridge University and the mosque photographs by R Bajpai of Reuters, I feel entitled to point out. User Kyuss seems to be a rabid member of the RSS, I wish to point out that his self proclaimed well meaning edits are simply a hidden agenda, the destruction of an article put together many months ago, and then constantly editeds to render it almost meaningless. It is clear user Kyuss fancies himself an historian and editor – However his facts are wrong and his edits clumsy. But this is wikipedia and he is most welcome to contribute even though we waste a lot of time having to point out the errors of his ways and cleaning up his mess. However his work on the article may not be the innocence of the ignorant and uninformed. He might be a paid up member of a communal organization called the RSS as he has expressed a similar type of bigotry and follows the RSS party line and version of Indian history. This version has been proved a fiction by all leading Indian and International historians. We know he has very little knowledge of history from his work – but sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. His edits do not enlighten, spread darkness hate and misinformation. User Kyuss’s dirty hand is everywhere trying to distort history. If he wishes to write about a temple let him set up his own Ram temple article. The Babri was one of India's leading mosques and an important archeological and historic monument. The mosque was part of India's heritage and history. After all the Muslims did rule India for 800 years. The article is about a mosque which existed as the photographs will testify. If there was a temple at the site then all means start an article elsewhere giving details of the temple and say it existed before the mosque But please do not distort history. And also abuse the intelligence of wiki readers. You are teaching newcomers, the evil sectarian and hate spreading ideology of the RSS This way of thinking has caused the deaths of thousands of Indians via riots
SO folks BEWARE USER KYUSS an ignorant man can also be a dangerous man.
Lalit Shastri
In reply to Lalit Shastri's vandalism and to his love-letter from above:
-- Kyuss 08:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, can I ask who got rid of pictures of Uma Bharti and Advani standing in front of the mosque, as it was being destroyed and those of Kar Savaks wielding cutlasses. Secondly I wrote the upper third of the article on the architecture, thats still there, I am not defending my own work, there is no need to. But of other contributers which is not there. did you delete these????? I have reverted the article to its original and no doubt you Kyuss will immediately go for the revert button. Meanwhile user Kyuss that was not a "love letter" why should I love you, don't be silly. That was more of a whipping a chastisement. Maybe you are one those who LOVES being caned, some sort of repressed perverted gratification to go with your rabid fanaticism. I have contributed a section on homophobia and the SA of the Third Reich, those other brown shirts, only this time its Khaki short pants from Nagpaur. Keep editing articles that’s what wiki is for. You of the Bajrang monkey Brigade are entitled to express an opinion in this manner expose yourself, this time flashing another very small part of your anatomy your brains. After all Wiki is a democracy.
Lalit Shastri
WikiSceptic 04:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
The article says that nearly a million karsevaks destroyed the mosque - i'm really not sure about this number. I've heard numbers like '200000' before, but I know that was in dispute as well. Does anyone know of any accurate estimates? Willardo 03:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree with putting this discussion / article in with the wikiproject on Hinduism. We have to remember that there is a significant and crucial difference between Hinduism as a religion, and Hindu nationalism, the significant force behind the Babri destruction. Putting them together is a dangerous political argument. Willardo 10:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me first congratulate all those who contributed to this article. Its quite an accomplishment in itself. The part about the destruction of the mosque is not an easy topic to write about and it is even more difficult to keep it a Neutral Point Of View as this was anything but a neutral event. I hope that this article will be nominated to become a feature article so that more people will read it and understand how complex relations between different communities in India are.
hydkat 20:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Please note that images licensed "to Wikipedia only", "for non-commercial use", or "for educational use" are candidates for speedy deletion (I3). Wikipedia is an attempt to create a free, reusable encyclopedia, including commercial re-use, and such licenses are incompatible with this goal. Any such images may be deleted at any time, and I would like to very much encourage the editors here to remove such images from this article and find freely-licensed replacements. Thanks for understanding. Jkelly 23:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Should it be urdu instead of arabic in the intro.-- Dangerous-Boy 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The edits by 82.44.179.214 use pov language like "these Nazis", makes offtopic allegations and is unsourced. It needs to be npov'ed and sourced, if there is something valuable in it.
Muslims claim that neither history nor fact can come to prove the Hindu case. Hindu motives are not confined to Babri Masjid. If they succeed in snatching away Babri Masjid from Muslims, it will be made a precedent to extend the agitation to every other place of religious importance to the Muslims.
They claimthat is clear that the allegations, on which, the demands of RSS, Vishwa Hindu Parishad & Hindu Munnani are based for laying claim to Babri Masjid are rooted in hatred.
In India, several Buddhist and Jain temples were demolished and several Hindu temples constructed instead. If the Buddhists and Jain claim on historical demands for justice, then will the Hindu agree to demolish them and allow the Buddhists and Jain to erect their places of worship?
They further say that there is no limit to the Hindu fanatical imagination like of the theory that Taj Mahal is a Shiva Temple? A paper presented at the World Hindu Conference at Columbo in April 1982 claimed that "The Hajrul Aswad (Kaaba, the Black Stone) is only a form of Shivalinga."
According to the District Gazetteer Faizabad 1905, it is said that "up to this time (1855), both the Hindus and Muslims used to worship in the same building. But since the Mutiny (1857), an outer enclosure has been put up in front of the Masjid and the Hindus forbidden access to the inner yard, make the offerings on a platform (chabootra), which they have raised in the outer one."
Militant Hindus in 1883 wanted to construct a temple on this chabootra, but the Deputy Commissioner prohibited the same on Jan. 19, 1885. Raghubir Das, a mahant, filed a suit before the Faizabad Sub-Judge. Pandit Harikishan was seeking permission to construct a temple on this chabootra measuring 17 ft. x 21 ft. the suit was dismissed. An appeal was filed before the Faizabad District Judge, Colonel J.E.A. Chambiar who after an inspection of spot on March 17, 1886, dismissed the appeal.
A Second Appeal was filed on May 25, 1886, before the Judicial Commissioner of Awadh, W. Young, who also dismissed the appeal. With this, the first round of legal battle fought by the Hindu militants came to an end.
During the "communal riots" of 1934, walls around the Masjid and one of the domes of the Masjid were damaged. These were reconstructed by the British Government.
On mid-night of December 22, 1949, when the police guards were asleep, idols of Rama and Sita were quietly smuggled into the Masjid and were planted by a group of Hindu Nazis. This was reported by constable, Mata Prasad, the next morning and recorded at the Ayodhya police station.
According to a pre-conceived plan, the following morning (Dec. 23, 1949), a large "Hindu" crowd made a "frantic attempt" to enter the Masjid on the pretext of offering puja to the idols illegally planted. The District Magistrate K.K. Nair has recorded that "The crowd made a most determined attempt to force entry. The lock was broken and policemen were rushed off their feet. All of us, officers and men, somehow pushed the crowd back and held the gate. The sadhus recklessly hurled themselves against men and arms and it was with great difficulty that we managed to hold the gate. The gate was secured and locked with a powerful lock brought from outside and police force was strengthened (5:00 pm)." Thus, the fight of fanatics became frustrated.
On hearing this shocking news Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru became very furious and directed UP Chief Minister Govind Ballabh Pant, to see that the idols were removed. Under Pant's orders, Chief Secretary Bhagwan Sahay and Inspector-General of Police V.N. Lahiri sent immediate instructions to Faizabad to remove the idols. However, K.K. Nair feared that the Hindu mob would cause "bloodshed and manslaughter" and pleaded inability to carry out the orders. Since then, the Hindu extremists came to believe that "disorder and violence" alone would pay.
They say that it prove that the Hindu militants believe in "bloodshed and manslaughter" as a means to achieve their goals. On Jan. 5, 1950 the chairman of the Faizabad-cum-Ayodhya Municipal Board was appointed Receiver to take charge of the Masjid under Sec. 145 of the Cr.P.C. The Civil suit (No. 2 of 1950) filed by Gopal Singh Visharad on Jan. 16, 1950 before the Civil Judge Faizabad seeking permission to worship these idols (which had been illegally planted in the Masjid), is still pending and the matter is now before the High Court. There are eight defendants including five Muslims and the Govt. of UP. The statement of the Deputy Commissioner, J.N. Ugra, filed before the court, said: "on the night of Dec. 22, 1949, the idols of Ramachandraji were surreptitiously and wrongly put inside the Masjid."
On Jan. 25, 1986, a 28-year old Umesh Chandra Pandey who was not even born when the suit was filed, went to court seeking permission for himself and his co-religionists to worship these idols in the Masjid. The District Judge, K.M. Pandey recorded a statement of the District magistrate (i.e., the Revenue Officer) T.K. Pandey and without even giving an opportunity to the others who were parties to the dispute, passed an interim order related to a dispute whose file was at the High Court. At the time of passing the orders, the main file was not before the said District Judge!
Within minutes of passing the order the locks that had been put 37 years ago (on Dec. 23, 1949) were broken and "idol worship" started. It is very clear that V.C. Pandey, K.M. Pandey and T.K. Pandey all belong to a subsect of a sub-caste, as their very names indicate.
The state TV lost no time to telecast the opening of the locks, the worship and the mob fanfare on that very day. Muslims claim that this goes to show the TV officials might have had prior knowledge of the court's orders. Evidently the media was under the influence of high-caste Brahmins.
The upper Hindu caste-controlled "national press" has hidden the above mentioned facts while highlighting the events related to the Baht Masjid / Ram-Janam-Bhoomi issue. The media is projecting only the Nazi view-point.
Lately, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and other like minded militant Brahmins are holding meetings where pledges are being taken that the Babri Masjid shall not be released to Muslims irrespective of the final judicial verdict. And these Nazis are the very people who often boast that "judiciary is the only hope of India". Those who advocate the rule of law are breaking the law on Babri Masjid. The tradition of treating the mosque site as the birthplace of Rama appears to have begun in early l8th century. The earliest suggestion that the Babri Masjid is in proximity to the birthplace of Ram was made by the Jesuit priest Joseph Tieffenthaler, whose work in French was published in Berlin in 1788. It says:
"Emperor Aurangzeb got demolished the fortress called Ramkot, and erected on the same place a Mahometan temple with three cuppolas. Others believe that it was constructed by Babar. We see 14 columns of black stone 5 spans high that occupy places within the fortress. Twelve of these columns now bear the interior arcades of the Masjid; two (of the 12) make up the entrance of the cloister. Two others form part of the tomb of a certain Moor. It is related that these columns, or rather the debris of these columns, were brought from Lanka (called Ceylon by the Europeans) by Hanuman, chief of the monkeys." which in French reads as
l'empereur Aurungzeb a détruit la forteresse appelée Ramkot et construit à la même chose placer un temple musulman avec 3 dômes. D'autres indiquent qu'il a été construit par Babar. On peut voir 14 colonnes faites en pierre noire qui soutiennent des découpages. Plus tard Aurungzeb, et certains indiquent que Babar a détruit l'endroit afin d'empêcher des heathens de pratiquer leurs cérémonies.Toutefois ils ont continué à pratiquer leurs cérémonies religieuses dans le places, sachant ceci pour avoir été endroit de naissance de Rama, en le circulant 3 fois et en se prosternant sur la terre..
We see on the left a square platform 5 inches above ground, 5 inches long and 4 inches wide, constructed of mud and covered with lime. The Hindus call it bedi, that is to say, the birth-place. The reason is that here there was a house in which Beschan, (Bishan-Vishnu) took the form of Rama, and his three brothers are also said to have been born. Subsequently, Aurangzeb, or according to others, Babar razed this place down, in order not to give the Gentiles (Hindus) occasion to practice their superstition. However, they continued to follow their superstitious practices in both places, believing it to be the birthplace of Rama."Questions of history
This record reveals that Aurangzeb demolished the Ramkot fortress; that either he, or Babar constructed a Masjid there; the 12 columns of black stone pillars were brought from Lanka; and when veneration of Rama became prevalent after the 17th century, a small rectangular mud platform was built to mark the birthplace of Rama.(History and Geography of India, by Joseph Tieffenthaler, (published in French by Bernoulli in 1785))
However, this account does not explicitly mention the existence of a temple but a mud platform.
In Urdu the name of the Masjid is بابري and the name of Emperor Babur is بابر
Therefore we can derive that Babri Masjid = Babur's Masjid or Masjid (Mosque) of Babur in english. Mustaqbal 20:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Many of the claims regarding the scope of the violence are unsubstantiated. Point of fact, articles by Francis Gautier have pointed out that physical violence against people during the repatriation were minimal. Until I clean it up, the TotallyDisputed Tag needs to be there.I'll need to research a bit in order to present the muslim point of view neutrally, as well as get the facts about the actual extent of the violence allegedlyperpetrated by Hindu nationalists, together with death toll figures.( Netaji 13:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
I find that a particular editor has edited the page massively with edit summaries like tags/ typos and so on to camouflage the addition/deletion made by him. This is rally sad and a point of introspection: are we building the project or trying to make fun of it! It was really interesting to see a bot revert his edit when he changed thirteen to 31. Bots are intelligent than wikipedians!!! -- Bhadani 15:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
P. V. Narasimha Rao, the 9th Prime Minister of India, has termed Babari Masjid as “controversial structure” in his book Ayodhya 6 December 1992. The natural presumption is that a section of the government, including him, believed that it was not a Mosque in the conventional sense as the structure perhaps did not conform to the Islamic principles to be designated as a Mosque. However, my knowledge in such matter is rather poor. I would like to learn more. Thanks. -- Bhadani 16:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Rushdie 20:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought this article was fine back then? It was pretty well balanced. What happened?-- D-Boy 05:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Muslim side has been unable to disprove the fact that a Hindu temple existed in the area."
There is nothing that even remotely indicates that in the source. BhaiSaab talk 21:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted a cleanup tag on the History section because the vocabulary and organization of the section is really lacking. Also, the section doesn't seem wikified enough. Mar de Sin Speak up! 12:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow... there is a Hindu Mulsim war everywhere !! Anyhow... maybe when u guys are done fighting with each other you should pay attention to the 'fact' that this article is not neutral. It bends heavily towards the Hindu point of view (i think it has been written by one). Its pretty nice till the architecture part but then the whole 'history according to the hindu point of view' stinks of propaganda. This matter can be debated forever... so if we have such a strong representation of the history according to the hindus we should also have a equally strong case put forward from the muslim perspective (i'm sure there is one). Now you can probably start disecting me and my character here but i'm just a regular wikipedia fan who hates to see biased articles !
So maybe this article can be moderated by a hindu and a muslim together.. just to keep the balance.
Ainz
61.246.25.36 21:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Terrorism needs to be backed up by numerous mainstream sources. The demolition of a building in which nobody was killed is hardly terrorism. Baka man 19:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Pens withdrawn 05:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
acts which are: intended to create fear or "terror" this is what it is described there. Destroying a masjid which was a symbol of harmony for centuries among muslims and hindus to create communal tensions must be described with a more stronger word than terrorism. Pens withdrawn 06:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"It was destroyed in a well planned move by groups of Hindu extremists( RSS and VHP) in a riot on December 6, 1992"
"It was destroyed by Hindu activists in a riot on December 6, 1992." --- current version
major problem was with the word "extremists" -- lets agree with "activists" (just for compromise)
next part of the problem is inclusion of group names RSS and VHP. User:Nobleeagle says that- they were not the only group and deletes that part (see the history of the page). But no one denies the fact that they are also involved. And it is also know to everyone that the masjid was destroyed in a well planned move (even in the presence of tight security arranged by central govt of India)
So lets make the phrase as "It was destroyed in a well planned move by groups of Hindu activists( RSS, VHP and others) in a riot on December 6, 1992"
word 'others' is added to address User:Nobleeagle's problem and activist is retained.
Trying to hide these facts in wikipedia doesn't erase the history. It id so stupid to think like that. ---- Pens withdrawn 11:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states that one thing is clear- There was a temple and it was demolished by Muslims and a mosque built to symbolize Islam victory over paganism. There are evidence from it from many sources. While the site provides the evidence for first assertion it does not provide any for the second. It may be possible that latter a mosque was constructed on the site.
Can we get a paragraph detailing the destruction of the mosque, and the aftermath of it's destruction.
Criticized by fundamentalist Islamist preachers or criticized by real archaeologists? A bunch of imams whining about the findings of a team of respected archaeologists does not make it controversial. Baka man 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
::Dear Bakasuprman, Sir..I have seen a common refrain from you very learned scholar , Sir, that makes you blame the other point of view as coming from "bunch of imams whining" and Sir, somewhere I have also seen you say about the " Wakf Boards" that own the Babri Masjid land as "bunch of fundamentalists" etc..So Dear Sir, Please go through the following lines:
- NEW DELHI: The Sangh is a Parivar once again, thanks to the [Archaeological Survey of India's controversial report on Ayodhya http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/181530.cms]." The author of this report is not a very bearded fundamentalist but a mainstream journalist from The Times of India
- Also Sir, the analysis of the peice below did not come through a bearded Muslim fundamentalist but a national newspaper The Hindu
- THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL Survey of India's [report of its excavation of the Babri Masjid site has important failings which render it suspect http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/op/2003/10/14/stories/2003101400160300.htm]. Both in what it includes, and in what it excludes, the report does not address the task to which the High Court directed it, namely to determine whether a mosque and/or a Ram temple existed at that site. The ASI has said that it has discovered the bases of pillars which originally supported the roof of a temple at a layer below the mosque. It adduces the discovery of terracotta figurines at the site to strengthen this claim. And it claims to have discovered a "circular shrine" which it conjectures contained a Sivalinga, which it would have us believe fortifies the claim to a Ram temple at the site. However, in fact the evidence does not indicate that a Ram temple existed at this site. On the contrary, important evidence which the ASI has not properly examined or accounted for includes animal bones and glazed ware, both foreign to a Hindu Ram temple of medieval times.
- Dearest Sir, It does not take a space scientist to understand that the contention that this report was controversial comes from reliable and verifiable sources while sir, your removal of these and ascribing of evidences against your point of view are based on name calling, hardly an encycopedic exercise and attitude. Terminador 03:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Dear Friends, One great contributor Sir Bakasuprman has been reverting edits from other users citing WP:V and WP:ATT, Now it is amply clear that all the edits in this change are verifianle and from reliable sources.If Sir, Bakasuprman has some care for the Wikipedia, he should be able to explain why inspite of all that has been discussed just in the para above , the ASI report on the site excavations in Ayodhya are not controversial.[ [11]]
Otherwise, I believe reasons exist that Sir Bakasuprman , has been exhausting other contributors patience by attacking well known facts verifiable through reliable sources instead of informing himself before removing other user's edits. 59.177.0.127 05:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Terminador 05:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
>>You also seem to be harping on what a bunch of random mullahs and their Pseudo-secular journalist friends wrote, while disregarding the scholarly report and the actual findings of said report. The fact that remains of a temple were found under the rubble. Baka man 17:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
>> The report was only criticized by Muslim bodies not archaeologists
Hindu activists nets 46k]
Response:
NEW DELHI: The Archaeological Survey of India's excavation report on Ayodhya, suggesting ‘‘a huge structure indicative of remains, which are distinctive features associated with the temples of north India, has been found wanting at many levels by archaeologists and historians.
>>You also seem to be harping on what a bunch of random mullahs and their
Pseudo-secular journalist friends wrote..
Response:
>> Rather than trolling, and hiding behind IP's to promote Hinduphobic bs like "cult of Rama" indicates that you are merely here for an agenda.
Response:
Terminador 03:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
>> Also, your use of Hindu "extremists" does not meet WP:ATT.
Response:
[12], [13], [14]. Hmm... lets take a look at the tribune chandigarh. The Waqf Board and AIMPLB are the only prominent critics noted in all the papers provided on the web. I fail to see why you blank the note on the actual conclusion of the ASI report while soapboxing for an op-ed columnist. I dont need a wikistalking WP:SPA to tell me what I can, will, or can't do on wiki. Baka man 23:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Kristin M. Romey, Flashpoint Ayodhya in Archaeological Ethics, (Karen D. Vitelli, John Stephen Colwell-Chanthaphonh Eds.) Rowman Altamira, 2006, ISBN: 075910963X. Doldrums 12:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The text reads ‘The contemporary Tarikh-i-Babari records that Babar's troops "demolished many Hindu temples at Chanderi’." - Why are we quoting non-existant memoirs? The only memoirs of the era are the Ta'rikh-e Rashidi and the baburnama, neither of which contain the previously quoted text. Explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.7.55.146 ( talk) 19:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is there not actually any content in this article describing the destruction of the Mosque? Kind of a big thing to be missing, it just jumps from the 40s to the present day. Also the actual text of this article is utter garbage, it really shows that all the effort here went into pov-pushing instead of actual writing. I will be adding copy-edit and cleanup tags to the article as soon as I can edit it. -- Pat Larsen 02:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to have a further section on this article, like relevant links, citing how many hundereds of Hindu temples have gone down in Muslim countries compared to one measly mosque in India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.64.106 ( talk) 21:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Babri Masjid/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Please check the images posted on this article. Several of these are images of some other monuments and not the Babari masjid - especially the images of the interior. I had visited Babari Masjid in 1991 with my family. The interiors of the monument were absolutely plain, with no carvings or inscriptions in Arabic. Also, it was covered in white plaster, with no ornate decorations of any sort. Please verify the images with Archaeological Survey of India or some other reliable sources rather than this so called reuters reporter, which I am sure is a fake. |
Last edited at 16:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 14:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I am a college professor attempting to assign Wikipedia edits gleened from peer reviewed scholarly journals. One of my students, EmilyEllis09, had her edit reverted with the comment "POV. Please discuss on talk page." Can you clarify how the entry violated the neutral point of view policy and help me understand the process of wikipedia editing better. -- Ellencavanaugh ( talk) 01:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Reaction of DEMOLATION?Please,it's demolition.
Deepak ( talk) 14:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
It is generally thought that the Mosque was built by Babur after demolishing the Rama temple, because an inscription on the mosque records his name. Although we have a detailed account of the life of Babur in the form of his diary ( Babur Nama), the pages of the relevant period are missing in the diary. But it is also alleged that the Mosque already existed before Babur, who may only have renovated the building.
Part of the paragraph was removed as it had no source and was not neutral. -- Joshua Issac ( talk) 20:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I watched a video (by a western source) that documented the Babri mosque demolition, and it claimed that most of the riots that broke out were targeted towards Muslims. I'm not sure if its the truth or not, but might be worth looking into. There's only one sentence here which only says 'riots were broken out' but doesn't give details of who was predominantly affected by the riots, or any other details such as main cities/states of the riots, etc. -- digitwoman ( talk) 12:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
A few pages which could become sources: http://www.geocities.com/indianfascism/Babri/babri_masjid.htm http://pakistantimes.net/2005/02/04/kashmir5.htm
Joshua Issac ( talk) 19:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
We wouldn't want any bias Sources here would we. I don't think any pakistani sources will be nuteral. please dont add the above as the pakisatnis have always tried to potray India as anti muslim and being a muslim i thank Alla that he made me an indian than a pakistani.
Mannan Burhan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.45.10.20 ( talk) 17:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1942725,00.html Mughalnz ( talk)
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/11/2009112414593176363.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8376755.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/india-babri-mosque-violence-report
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gRlNDzA652rwzZ8TExAc06KiIq_Q
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1124/p06s04-wosc.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aKUCmGe.WP5k
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSDEL486832
http://www.radioaustralianews.net.au/stories/200911/2751412.htm?desktop
http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/25/stories/2009112557980100.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/25/stories/2009112558130100.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mughalnz ( talk • contribs) 22:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
In the section titled, 'Demolition of Babri Masjid', it refers to the mob that demolished the mosque as "Hindu nationalists". I think a more neutral word to use would be "Hindu extremists". Using "hindu nationalists", we're giving the impression that nationalists, who were Hindu, wanted to destroyed it. Sridharrao ( talk) 17:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)Sridharrao
In the article, the congregation of Hindus in Ayodhya on 6th Dec 1992 is described as a political rally. However, it is beyond doubt and a commonly known fact that the rally was part of a nationwide movement by Hindus to bring awareness and solidify support for a Ram Temple on the disputed structure. The support for the this movement, commonly known as Ram Janmabhoomi Andalon or Ayodhya movement, was widespread. Please remove the reference of political rally from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajmohata ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
After a few edits over the last couple of days I believe I have made a decent attempt at a cleanup. I believe the peacock terms have been removed and there now a balanced POV. The overall tone of the article favours neither side and presents the facts in a balanced manner. This achieves NPOV, because not every section or line in a contentious article can possibly be NPOV in and of itself. As long as the opposing viewpoints are dealt with clearly and in a fair proportion, then overall NPOV is maintained. What IS lacking here are citations. I also agree it would be good to have a few more details regarding the events on the day of destruction. Mdw0 ( talk) 07:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I am surprised to just find a line about Demolition of Babri Masjid, an important event of post-independence, especially considering its aftermath on the very fabric of India, an historical event like this deserves more. Thanks! -- Ekabhishek talk 06:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree. In fact, I believe the Demolition of the Babri Masjid should have its own article. Leftsideend ( talk) 19:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. In fact, I came to this article for the sole purpose of finding out about the demolition. In fact, I would think that for non-Indian audiences, the demolition is probably the point of interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.7.153 ( talk) 14:25, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I have added few referenced facts about the Babri Mosque#Demolition Adi4094 ( talk) 11:11, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
We had some images linking to the main article. All these images have disappeared from English version but are available elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.179.9 ( talk) 11:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC) [15]
These images were found in the older versions of Wikipedia such as the ones hosted here: [16]
Any idea ? Can we sense erasing history here again? 81.100.179.9 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC).
This page is begging for semi-protection. Zealots are using this page to provoke their opponents by making a mess of what is otherwise an informative and useful article. If people cant accept there are two sides to the Ayodhya debate then the barriers WILL go up. Mdw0 ( talk) 02:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
That's right!! Adi4094 ( talk) 03:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
In light of the expected verdict on the issue on the 24th of September, and as the issue is controversial, I request semi-protection.
Hi, I saw that this page has been inactive for a while, so I archived it. See the archive if you want to see the discussion. If you wish to add anything, please copy the relevant bits from the archive and paste it here, then add your comment(s). Thank you. Joshua Issac ( talk) 12:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm learning about Wikipedia. I want to read about hotly discussed topics. 59.163.32.26 ( talk) 15:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
MUSLIMS VERSION OF EVENTS Was there a temple beneath the Babri Masjid? Having examined the records of excavations conducted by Prof. B.B.Lal, former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) in the seventies at the Ayodhya site, preserved at the Purana Qila office of the ASI, a team of four historians and archaeologists came to the conclusion that there was no proof of it. They explained their findings and conclusions at the press conference held at the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), New Delhi, on October 23,1992. The experts: Prof. R.S. Sharma, former Chairman of the ICHR; Prof. M. Athar Ali (Rtd.) Department of History, Aligarh University; Prof. Suraj Bhan (Rtd.), Professor of History, Kurukshetra University; and Prof. D.N. Jha, Professor of History, University of Delhi. They had earlier been to Ayodhya and made on-the-spot studies of the Ayodhya excavation site.
The new material evidence relates to excavations done by Prof. B.B. Lal over 11 years ago in areas in the vicinity of the Babri Masjid. Prof. Lal has since published a series of documents on results of his studies. He made an announcement recently that brick base found in the vicinity of the masjid could be meant for sustaining pillars and therefore suggest the existence of a temple-like structure south of the Babri masjid. The BJP is taking it as the basic evidence for the existence of a temple where the masjid stands.
The experts examined the site notebook and register of antiquities connected with the Ayodhya excavations, studied the drawings, plans, photographs, and excavated material and found that the recent claim of Prof. Lal regarding the existence of a mandir-like structure was unsubstantiated. The existence of a brick base for pillars does not prove that it could be of a temple. If there was a temple, at least some articles related to the temple could have been found during the excavations. No such evidence had been found by Prof. Lal.
Even in his own report submitted to the Archaeological Survey of India in 1976-77 and in 1979-80, Professor Lal had stated “several later medieval brick-and-kankar lime floors have been sighted, but the entire late period was devoid of any special interest.” The later medieval period indicated 17th-l8th centuries. If remains of a structure of 17th-l8th centuries, are found outside the masjid area, how do they prove the presence of a temple that was supposedly built in the 11th century and destroyed in the early 16th century? the experts asked. They also point out that the excavations did not reveal any pillars, or roof material of the supposed temple at the site where the brick pillar base stood. The mere presence of pillar bases does not make out a case for the existence of a temple.
Interestingly, pieces of glazed ware pottery were unearthed from the trenches above the floors associated with the brick-pillar base structure and immediately below the general floor of the Babri Masjid. It is an accepted fact that Islamic glazed-ware pottery has never been used in Hindu temple. The presence of the glazed pottery shows that as in other parts of Ayodhya, this site also was inhabited by Muslims around the thirteenth century, and the pillar structure could have been anything but a temple, had already fallen down and gone out of use before the Muslim habitation.
Now about the black basalt stone-pillars used in the four arches of the Masjid. VHP argues that they formed part of the temple which was destroyed. Similar pillars are also found in the graveyard nearby. All these differ in their style and diameter and their total lack of stratigraphic association rules out the possibility of their being an integral part of any single structure. Such pillars are also found in other parts of Ayodhya in completely unrelated contexts. Besides, the pillar bases existing at a distance of about 60 feet to the south of the Babri Masjid structure are in alignment with the pillars used in the Babri Masjid. They could have been part of a veranda or a dwelling place or an animal shed and are of no importance as such structures could be found in the area even now. Thus, archeological evidence so far suggests the existence of Muslim habitation proximal to the Masjid from the 13th century onwards. [Courtesy, Nation and the World, New Delhi, Nov. 16, 1992] There is no historical record stating that the site had a temple that was destroyed to build a mosque. TOI. The earliest mention of the Babri water well was in a two line reference to the Mosque in the Gazette of Faizabad District 1918 which says “There are no significant historical buildings here, except for various Buddhist shrines, the Babri Mosque is an ancient structure with a well which both the Hindus and Mussalmans claim has Miraculous properties.” The Babri Mosque was a large imposing structure with three domes, one central and two secondary. It is surrounded by two high walls, running parallel to each other and enclosing a large central courtyard with a deep well, which was known for its cold and sweet water. On the high entrance of the domed structure are fixed two stone tablets which bear two inscriptions in Persian declaring that this structure was built by one Mir Baqi on the orders of Babur. The walls of the Babri Mosque are made of coarse-grained whitish sandstone blocks, rectangular in shape, while the domes are made of thin and small burnt bricks. Both these structural ingredients are plastered with thick chunam paste mixed with coarse sand.
When did the Ayodhya controversy erupt? According to recorded history, Babri Masjid was built in 1528 by Mir Bank who was Babur's viceroy in that region. There is no historical record stating that the site had a temple that was destroyed to build a mosque. The mosque was known by several names, including Masjid-i Janmasthan, Jami Masjid, Sita Rasoi Masjid and so on. The District Gazetteer of Faizabad documents that the mosque was a place of worship for both religions. Incidents of communal violence over the ownership of the site started from 1853 and the British government tried to resolve it in 1859 by erecting a fence that divided the mosque into an inner and outer court. Hindus were allowed to construct a raised platform (chabutra) in the outer court, while the inner court was to be used only by Muslims.
Did the two-nation theory have an impact on the mosque? It is well known that the two-nation theory worked as a major divide between both communities in most parts of the country. The mosque did not remain untouched, as the site started witnessing communal riots since early 1910s. A major riot erupted in 1934 when police had to be called in to control the situation.
What was the 1949 controversy about? In December 1949, the controversy reached new heights when mahants decided to recite the Ramayana in front of the mosque. It was later reported by the devotees who had gathered for that recitation that the image of Lord Ram appeared inside the mosque. But the administration and the Muslim community were not impressed as it was alleged that idols were placed inside by Hindus who entered the mosque by breaking its locks. Because of the controversy, the place was locked up.
Who filed the first title suit? The first suit was filed in 1950 by Gopal Singh Visharad, a shopkeeper in Ayodhya. The suit was filed in Faizabad civil court, seeking a ruling that would grant permission to perform puja at the site. The second suit was filed by Paramhans Tamchandra Das, again in 1950, and it sought the same injunction. This suit was later withdrawn. In 1959, Nirmohi Akhara filed a title suit, claiming ownership of the site. This prompted the UP Sunni Ce-ntral Board of Waqfs to file the fourth suit in 1961. The fifth suit was filed in 1989. With one of these suits having been withdrawn, four title suits were pending in the Faizabad civil court. In 1989, these suits were transferred to Allahabad HC. TOI
Ancient Sanskrit Documents
IT IS surprising that the VHP has not been able to provide even a single ancient Sanskrit document in support of its claim that there had been an ancient belief in Ram-janmasthan at Ayodhya. On the contrary evidence suggests that reverence of Ayodhya as the birthplace of Ram began not before the l8th century. The only document in support of its claim is the Skanda Purana, which abounds in interpolations. At best, the core of it was compiled not earlier than 16th century. This Purana has a chapter extolling the greatness of Ayodhya (Ayodhya Mahatmya) which appears towards the end of the work and which clearly is a later addition. Even if we accept the location of the birthplace of Rama as given in the Ayodhya Mahatmya, it does not coincide with that of the Babri Masjid. According to the Skanda Purana, the birthplace of Rama is 500 dhanus (910 meters) westward of Laumash and 1009 dhanus (1835 meters) eastward of Vighneshvara. Laumash is identical with the present Rinamochana Ghat. Thus, if we follow the Skanda Purana directions, the birthplace of Rama should be located somewhere west, in the vicinity of the Brahmakunda, close to the bed of the Saryu. So even accounting to the Skanda Purana the birthplace of Rama cannot be located on the site where the Babri Masjid stands. Mughal Records, AD 1528
A PIECE of authentic recorded history regarding the Masjid is the Persian inscription put on the Masjid immediately upon its construction in AD 1528-29. In that inscription nowhere has it been mentioned that the Masjid was built after destroying a temple or upon the site of a temple. If Mir Baqi who constructed the Masjid had destroyed the temple, he would have considered it a meritorious act and would have mentioned it in the inscriptions. Tulsidas, AD 1575
WITHIN FIFTY years of the construction of the Babri Masjid, the celebrated poet Tulsidas composed the Ram Charit Manas (1575-76), written in Avadhi. Is it possible to believe that Tulsidas would not have given vent to his grief had the very birth-site of Lord Rama had been ravaged, its temple razed to the ground and a mosque built in its place? If Ayodhya was sacred to the Hindus, he should have included it among the places of pilgrimage. Tulsidas suggests Prayag as one of the principal places of pilgrimage and not Ayodhya. In other words, even in the latter half of the 16th century Ayodhya was not considered as one of the holy places. A’in-i-Akbari, AD 1598
THE EARLIEST mention of Ayodhya as a place of pilgrimage is in the A’in-i-Akbari by Abul Fazl who completed it in AD 1598. Abul Fazl includes Ayodhya among the important places of pilgrimage in India. In the chapter on Ayodhya, he gives a detailed account of an extensive area called Ayodhya where Ramnavmi festival is celebrated and which is esteemed to be one of the holiest places of antiquity. He even mentions small details such as two Jewish priests lying buried in Ayodhya. Yet there is not the remotest reference to Ram’s birthsite, let alone to any mosque built on it. William Flinch, AD 1608
THE BRITISH historian William Flinch, who stayed in India during AD 1608-11 gives a detailed description of Ayodhya and the castle of Ramchand (Ramkot), “extensive enough to undertake a search for gold.” Though he does not mention the birthplace of Rama, he gives a detailed account of the place where the ashes of Ram are kept. “Some two miles on the further side of the river in a cave of his with a narrow entrance, but so spacious and full of turnings within that a man may well lose himself there if he taketh not better heed; where it is thought his ashes were buried. Hither resort many from all parts of India, which carry from thence in remembrance certain grains of rice as black as gunpowder which they say have been preserved ever since.” Had the place been considered sacred for being the birthplace of the Lord Rama, it should have become one of the places of pilgrimage. Instead the place where his ashes are kept was considered a place of veneration. Sujan Rai Bhandari, AD 1695
THE KHULASTU-I TAWARIKH, the first geographical account of holy places in India, written by Sujan Rai Bhandari in 1695-96, specifically mentions that the “Mathura temple of Keshav have been destroyed by Aurangzeb who had a Masjid built in its place.” But while describing Ayodhya, he says that, “in Hindu books it is called Ayodhya, the birthplace of Ramchand... As this city was the residence of Ramchand, it is held to be one of the holiest places... In the town there are tombs of Shish (Seth), the son of Lord Adam (peace of God be on him!) and Ayub (Job) the prophet – both places of pilgrimage to the Muhammadans.” Ram Chaturman, AD 1759
ANOTHER WRITER Ram Chaturman, who wrote his Chahar Gulshan in AD 1759-60 describes Ayodhya as “one of the select places of worship, the birthplace of Raja Ramchandar, son of Jasrat (Dasharat) who was one of the ten avatars.” The entire place was considered to be the ruins of Ramachand’s fortress, which included the palace and several other buildings and structures.
Thus, until 220 years after the construction of the Babri Masjid, there was no suggestion anywhere in recorded history that there was a precise site of Ram’s birth, where the holy structure had been destroyed and a Masjid built upon it.
[Courtesy, Nation and the World, New Delhi, Nov. 16, 1992] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.58.169 ( talk) 21:35, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}} Please add information regarding verdict of Babri Mosque demolition which is coming out on 30 September 2010. Please add whole story of how it got delayed due to supreme court rulings and then how supreme court of India lifted the ban on verdict which is to be given by Allahabad High Court in 30 September 2010.
Mayank6002 ( talk) 04:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
The latest edits on the opening paragraph are not appropriate. The anonymous editor hasn’t made any effort to address concerns, so I'm going to make it clear as to why the edits don’t work.
Firstly, there is excessive detail that makes the opening paragraph lose the pointed style opening paragraphs need. This information needs to be in the appropriate areas further down, if at all.
Second, it adds a lot of off-topic information. This is not the Ayodhya Debate page, it is the Babri Mosque page. Therefore the opening paragraph, and most of the other paragraphs must be about the mosque itself, not what was there before the mosque.
Third, the referencing is poor. There is nothing indicating academic backup of the claims for the prevailing temple, no references for the later court orders or Muslim unrest. A request for referencing about the claimed religious demographics of Ayodhya resulted in a useless link to the Indian Census page which gives no information at all. The claim that there have been no Muslim prayers at the site since 1947 would definitely require a reference.
Fourth, the history information is hopelessly out of order. It moves from ancient times to 1992 to construction in 1527 to 1984 to independence in 1947 then 1989 then back to 1528. Is the editor deliberately trying to cause confusion?
Fifth, the edits reproduce information from other sections. The history information is better expressed, and more evenly expressed in the History section.
Also, the translation of ‘Mosque i Janmasthan’ is ‘Mosque of the Birthplace’, NOT birthplace of Lord Rama, otherwise Krishna Janmasthan would translate as Krishna Birthplace of Lord Rama
I understand the editor may be a passionate supporter of whatever is their cause, and that they have added what they believe to be true. However, the edit does not belong in the opening paragraph and most of it is either repetition or it doesn’t belong in this article. They do their point of view in the debate no favours by constantly adding these edits back in. I am happy to discuss these concerns with the anonymous editor, with a view to finding out what the aim of edits are, but the constant re-insertion of poor material without discussion can’t continue. Mdw0 ( talk) 06:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The "Architecture ..." section does not have a single in-line citation. Burden of proof is on the author. Nshuks7 ( talk) 12:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
From the first paragraph...
The Babri Mosque (Hindi: बाबरी मस्जिद, Urdu: بابری مسجد, translation: Mosque of Babur), was a mosque in Ayodhya, a city in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh, on Ramkot Hill ("Rama's fort"). It was destroyed in 1992 when a political rally developed into a riot involving 150,000 people,[1] despite a commitment to the Indian Supreme Court by the rally organisers that the mosque would not be harmed.[2][3] [2] organized by the Bharatiya Janata Party and allied organizations.[3] More than 2,000 Muslims were killed in ensuing riots in many major Indian cities including Mumbai and Delhi.[4]
...a part of the sentence is missing before the second footnote from the newindpress.com reference. According from the history it may have been a some sort of collateral damage or was part of a sentence that is supposed to be deleted. Can please someone have it checked? Thanks. E Wing ( talk) 07:46, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
As explained on your discussion page. Please revert the changes. .असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. 21:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Thisthat, if you want your edits to stand they need to be changed, both in tone and in balance. Your tone is too partisan. Such a tone makes factual items seem NPOV, even when they're not. You need to adjust your tone so that it doesnt try to make one group of people seem like they're all innocent downtrodden angels and the other like they're all terrorist devils. Also, your information is not balanced. You present only one side of a debate and not the other. Even if they were properly referenced, such edits create a politically unbalanced article, and in a controversial article such as this, that imbalance is more than enough reason to remove the edits. This is not a place for winning political arguments, it is somewhere to provide information on the mosque and what happened to it. Any writing on the aftermath should be minimal and cannot be politically partisan. Also, your attitude to referencing is poor. You cannot assume links in a totally different article is sufficient - its not, and never has been. You, yourself, need to provide good and relevant sources for your edits. If you are too lazy to back up your edits properly, you can expect them to be deleted. Mdw0 ( talk) 05:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
The hindu account section have some piece of information which are irrelevant and does not clearly give out the Hindu's stand in the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnan.jsr ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I propose that the page Ram Janmabhoomi be merged into this one. Although the two concepts are theoretically different, the material in "Ram Janmabhoomi" is currently a subset of the material here, and there is no unique material that I know of that would be inappropriate to this page. I would suggest that a section be created in this article to cover the "Ram Janmabhoomi" concept in slightly greater detail than it currently is, and any unique material in the "Ram Janmabhoomi" article could be covered therein. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 17:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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The last major edit was, overall, an improvement. It has removed a lot of poorly presented sections. However, the demolition needs to have more prominence in the opening paragraph. It is a fact that the destruction of the Babri Masjid gave it much more importance than it ever had while standing, and will be the main reason new readers come to this article. Also, the edit is too partisan. As well as the removal of the section in the opening paragraph which accurately and fairly portrays the drama of the building's destruction, any denial of a previous structure by Muslim groups and their supporters has been deleted, as though there wasn't any denial. There can't be an Ayodhya dispute if there's only one side arguing - both sides must be fairly represented. I suggest a re-entry of the statement in the opening paragraph about the destruction and a sentence or two about the views of the opposing side of the Ayodha dispute. Mdw0 ( talk) 01:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
In the light of the revelations that Sushil Srivastava has made in the Allahabad High Court Allahabad High Court Verdict - P.W. 15, Sushil Srivastava, I don't think his assessments belong in this article. - Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:51, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
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@ Vanamonde93: you just reverted my edit [ [20]], although I merely copied the other references cited in the article already. You can probably form a better sentence using those sources instead of removing them!- IvankaTr ( talk) 11:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC) IvankaTr ( talk) 11:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
The phrase "including official documents such as revenue records" is from Utcursch [22]. The source was apparently Koenraad Elst, which has since mysteriously disappeared.
I can't verify the "revenue records" claim, except to say that the entire area was called "Janmasthan" in settlement records. This was so in 1861, 1893, 1931 and 1989. Apparently it was carried over from the earlier records in Nawwabi times. The revenue records don't show a masjid there, but note the area as "populated". In all the documents, Mahants are shown as subsidiary owners. In 1861 and possibly 1893, the Janmasthan was "Nazul land" (government land), but in 1931 it is shown to belong to Waqf, but the Mahants still as subsidary owners. [1]
In a 1858 legal suit filed by the Muazzin of the mosque, the mosque is described as "Masjid-i Janmasthan", the courtyard as "maqam janmasthan ka" and the suit was filed against bairagiyan-i janmasthan". [2] This makes sense. If the entire area is Janmasthan, a masjid inside it would be obviously "Masjid-i Janmasthan". Syed Sahabudin apparently agreed with this interpretation, but contested that this had anything to do with an earlier temple there. [3]
I suggest we keep "official documents" and drop "revenue records". -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:40, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
References
There is mention of Hindu "activists" who demolished mosque - why are they called activists and not militants or terrorists? 62.216.205.33 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
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The Supreme Court has ruled that the mosque should be rebuilt at an alternative site awarded to the Sunni Waqf Board and the temple rebuilt in the same place but why it gave such a ruling is not clear right now. I therefore request you to change the sentence in the lead which reads, "In 2003, a report by the Archaeological Survey of India suggested that there appears to have existed an old structure at the site." to, "In 2003, a report by the Archaeological Survey of India suggested that there appears to have existed an old structure at the site which was a Hindu temple over which the Babri Masjid was built." Thanks (you can cite more references if you please)!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:5215:bd8d::1f4:c0a1 ( talk) 13:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Vanamonde93, please revert this edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.99.40.61 ( talk) 08:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I have removed from the infobox, this image with the caption "The Babri Mosque, upper left, in the 18th century. From William Hodges' Select Views in India in the Years 1780–1783. [1]"
It is true that the British Library claims it but the image is nothing like what we know the Babri Masjid to be, e.g., Indian Express, 4 June 2020.
Kishore Kunal discusses this painting in his book and states that the British Library is entirely mistaken. It is a painting of the "Svargadwari mosque" built by Aurangzeb near the Svargadwar ghat. [2] -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 09:40, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
References
I was just going through some articles and found that the mosque was probably named after a boy named Babri, whom Babur loved. Mentioned here here which takes the reference from the book Babur nama from Dilip Hiro. Should we look into it as a potential reason to name the Mosque. OpenMindedBloke ( talk) 18:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
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The article has the following words: "which the government allotted in Dhannipur." We need a citation that supports it. The following source possibly supports it, but it is not very clear. Part of it says words that can be translated as: "Land will be given in Dhanipur for the mosque. It is about 25 km from Ramjanmabhoomi located in Ayodhya. The five acres of land has been allotted to Sunni Central Waqf Board for building a mosque following the Supreme Court verdict."
If we were to use the Aaj Tak article as a citation, the article would need to mention (a) when the Supreme Court deadline was and (b) what is meant by "Ramjanmabhoomi". That way the reader could be assured that the cited source was talking about the Babri Masjid case (if it is).-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
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Please check the images posted on this article. Several of these are images of some other monuments and not the Babari masjid - especially the images of the interior. I had visited Babari Masjid in 1991 with my family. The interiors of the monument were absolutely plain, with no carvings or inscriptions in Arabic. Also, it was covered in white plaster, with no ornate decorations of any sort. Please verify the images with Archaeological Survey of India or some other reliable sources rather than this so called reuters reporter, which I am sure is a fake. Let us not distort the facts while presenting the case in such a sensitive debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.245.125.3 ( talk) 17:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I took this sentence out because it was obviously just added by someone later since the issue is discussed in the second paragraph with a more nuetral POV. "It was constructed by destroying the original Ram temple in Ayodhyaya"
I do not understand why there is all this hatred. Hindus and Mulims have lived together in peace for centuries. Why should some radicals disrupt this peace. It doesnt matter where the Babri Masjid site was for Hindus or Muslims. Just build a temple and a mosque there, and problem will be solved. Do not let communal differences bring down India.
The destruction signifies more than hatred. It shows that after 900 years of humiliation under Muslims, Hindus are finally taking a stand. Jai Hind! The Jews should follow our example, and deal with the Al-Aqsa Mosque in the same way.
Whoever he is - He is the darling of Hindutva Brigade and their revisionist agenda.So his views should be taken with a pinch...oh sorry !!!a handful of salt.
One does not know of him much.May be he is a paid mercenary for Hindutva cause.
lol...paid mercenary..yeah right...should I remind you that the Islamic charities pay for terrorists...a very peaceful and noble cause(I'm being sarcastic)....there are many nationalists who stick to a cause by heart and pride, not money.
I won't take his views into a neutral article without talking of his Hindutva allegiance.Ya- One thing we should make a difference between the Hinduism practiced by millions of moderate Indians and the Hindutva which is a Supremacist movement not unlike the British National Party
why should the Indian gov't protect missionaries? For breaking the law? Religious conversion is against the law in many states..whether you agree with it or not...its the law...If the missionaries break it, do they deserve protection?
I have not committed vandalism. I now provide reasons for my edits below: No, I put the muslim POV below the hindu one. This is so because the muslim pov starts out by criticizing the hindu POV, thus making it logically inconsistent for the muslim one to come first. Plus, the muslim POV part was strife with hate-speech against hindus and unsubstantiated, as well as unreferences stuff, which I have removed. The bit I have added is well-references from an article written by Koenraad Elst, who is neither Indian nor Hindu, but is a Belgian scholar of Indian studies. For instance:
I've heard this claim about that the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) to preach to India, and they found traces of his hair from his head. This can be from an authentic source (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud etc.. ) or it can be a forgery hadith. I'm not too sure about this, can someone research this up? Is there any authentic source?
62.189.60.30 15:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
He should thank the secular ethos..that allowed him to read RigVeda back to back and hark of the Hindu Glory
THe ideas expressed by him is similar to the generation of Communalists who are hell bent on their revisionist agenda
why have the lower Hindus created organisations which decry Hindu society why?
Enjoy yourself. At this point we are sufficiently powerful and well-connected to not care if fringe element nutjobs hate us.
Here are some links for you. Now our enemies may quiver in fear in the face of our newfound ally:
http://peace.heebz.com/india.html http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10445
http://www.forward.com/issues/2004/04.01.16/living1.html http://www.indojudaic.com/index.htm http://www.hinduunity.org/jewsofindia.html http://www.indojudaic.com/Lecture_Topics/lecturehindujewish.html http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/Sharon_2003/sharon_000.htm http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper131.html
I'll say one thing. Your screed against your own people, this self-hatred that you ahow, is robably related more to your ignorance of Hinduism than anything else. Your misguided perception of muslims being some sort of 'opressed underclass' gels with the dialectic materialism of Karl Marx. Understand this, my friend. Secularism IS NOT A PREREQUISITE FOR DEMOCRACY! USA and Israel have proved that. The world is shifting towards faith-based governments like neo-conservatives and Likud/Kadima . If Hindus don't do that, we will be wiped out by muslims in a massive genocide (think they'll spare you? Think again). Being a low caste hindu is way better then being a Dhimmi or Kaffir. Don;t believe me? Ask the Hindus presently being hunted to extinction in Pakistan, or Bangladesh, or a kashmiri pandit. Or the Ba'haii Jews assaulted and murdered on the streets of Tehran, or Christians in Saudi Arabia, or anyone who is not a muslim in an Islamic Country. ( Pusyamitra Sunga 11:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
User Boss has added following personal POV while at the same time deleting reference to Gujarat Riots in a previous edit saying it was unrelated and a Leftist propoganda.
.....). However, most enquiry reports in India fail to satisfy all the parties.In retaliation, Muslim mafia, principally the D-Gang operated by Dawood Ibrahim Khaskar, the Konkanni Muslim and acolyte of former Mafia don Haji Mastan, staged a simultaneous, multiple bomb attacks in Bombay using RDX and whose toll is also not finally set. See 1993 Mumbai bombings.
Admin should keep an eye on his changes please.He should be made to cite mainstream media as an authentic source and not the Sangh Parivar
Rushdie 10:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, I like Rushdie [2] Rushdie 11:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The BBC, like any media source, has bias in some form. However, like I said, you may put it in if you want WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING. You think you're tough? You ain't seen nothin' yet bubba.
Plus, it's not just Saudis who finance BMAC, it's terrorists. There are financial links to the BMAC which, if the BMAC was in the US, would have the whole lot of them thrown in Guantanamo Bay. All muslims incite violence. When they read the Quaran it incites violence, because the Quran incites violence. The BMAC members read the Quran in their sessions, don't they? That's violence, right there. Now what? Are you going to bomb me for typing that? ( Netaji 11:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
Rushdie 11:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC) 11:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can you please extend the same courtesy to yourself of I will write your own words "WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING".
Rushdie 11:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's more: http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/dec/19arvind.htm
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Babri_Mosque_-_The_Ayodhya_Debate/id/1295615
Adapted from the Wikipedia article "The Ayodhya Debate", under the G.N U Free Docmentation License. Please also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
It is clear that the BMAC holds a hardline position on this issue, so much so that even OTHER MUSLIMS, like Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi and Asghar Ali Engineer disagree with them (now that's a doozy, they must be really crazy if even muslims get scared by them). Also, bear in mind that elemens in the Sangh Parivaar have suggested that the masjid be re-built side-by-side with the Ramjanmabhoomi mandir, but did the muslims agree? Nooooooooo. It's 'haraam' to coexist with infidels in any way, shape or form. Either convert them or kill them ,right Janaab? (
Netaji
12:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
and you can obviously write to him through http://www.csss-isla.com/
Ya - Last line - Read your comments again - "However, like I said, you may put it in if you want WITHOUT DELETING ANYTHING. You think you're tough? You ain't seen nothin' yet bubba"
DID YOU FOLLOW YOURSELF WHAT YOU ARE ASKING OTHERS TO DO? HAVE YOU NOT REMOVED A LARGE PART OF THE ARTICLE AND EVEN WRITTEN YOUR OWN POV on the part "History According to the Muslims" Rushdie 15:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Please let me know what you think of these points... I hope we can work together to make this a better article. Graft 18:58, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)
First of all, my view is not pro-Sangh or anti-Sangh or pro-Muslim or anything of that sort. I am interested in posting things in a scientific manner. On the points you made and some more new points:
1) The structure beneath the Babri ruins HAS been confirmed as a Hindu temple. Like it or not, it has happened. The excavations were overseen by all parties involved and once the confirmation happened, the same political parties which were eagerly supporting the excavations suddenly condemned the excavations.
2) "mysteriously appear" includes being placed there by activist/activists. Obviously, it had to be placed there. "mysteriously appear" means it was placed there. By whom we do not know. "mysteriously appear" also captures the fact that the discovery of placement came as a surprise.
Notice your biases here - going by your argument, we should add the word 'allegedly' before "placed by activists." Your points against Hindus are all assertions while the points which are grievances by Hindus are made as 'allegations.'
3) The mosque was disused. In fact, there was no one on the Muslim side who could claim ownership in a court of law. The only arguments made in court that it was not disused was a claim by a politician that he once saw one person praying there many years ago while going on a walk. Clearly, you do not understand the politics in India.
4) "However, the version presented, where you ascribe motives to the crowd (i.e., "anger at ... pandering to the Muslim vote bank") are wholly indefensible."
You point is well taken. I will delete it. I should not have added that part, but the crowd did go out of control and was angry at the police for barricading them. It was a motley crowd and you cannot say they were VHP activists.
5) "These findings were promptly rejected by the Communists and other political parties which depend on the Muslim vote bank." is certainly clearly partisan.
Come on, this is a fact. RSS itself originated as a reaction to pandering of Muslims (check out separate electorates for Muslims during British times.)
I am not sure how familiar you are with the politics of India, but BJP rode to power on these issues - scrapping of special status for the only Muslim majority state in India and treating all states as equal, scrapping of Shariat laws for Muslims (in particular, Muslim women are persecuted by Mullahs ruling in disputes, Shah Bano case was the flashpoint), Muslim educational institutions receiving subsidies while Hindus in India are banned from running educational institutions, all revenues from Hindu temples being appropriated by the Government which then subsidise Madrasas and of course the issue at Ayodhya.
6) Of the above, everyone of them is a legitimate issue except Ayodhya. I explain Ayodhya below in point number 7. Anyone with common sense will see that political parties indulge in unequal treatment only for getting votes. Anyone familiar with India will know that Muslims voting en-masse on the orders of the Mullah in the mosque is a reality and that is why Muslims were appeased.
7) Ayodhya was not a legitimate issue because it should not be legislated by politicians. It should be treated purely as a legal dispute and evidence should be seen in a scientific manner. Politicians should have kept off completely. However, no political party in India thought on these lines. I don't blame them for it. They are not highly educated people to figure out that it was a legal issue to begin with.
8) The part about LK Advani pleading in city after city that Hindus and Muslims should jointly shift the structure brick by brick and he will get the Hindus to fund for it is a fact.
You should stop stringing together allegations and writing up an article. That is the hallmark of a poor journalist. That is an indirect way of sneaking in POVs. Please don't be biased. It is bad enough that India has been devastated repeatedly by all the known forms of unlibertarian groups - Christianity, Islam, Marxism, Socialists, Colonialists and indirectly by Pax Americana advocates who supported Osama bin Laden and Mujahideen.
OTOH, it has been unique in not seeing any anti-semitism and has welcomed people of all religions into its fold. When Parsis were persecuted, they came to India. When Jews were persecuted, they came to India and settled down. Syrian Christians found a home in India and when Tibetans were beaten out by Communists, they came to India too.
Choosing Communist sources and giving them prominence is unacceptable. Please desist from it.
9) I suggest you do proper research and you will see that the first recorded flareup was in the 19th century, and so was the first case filed in court. The British judge actually ruled that a temple had been destroyed but he felt helpless and could not restore it as it would upset the public order.
10) Your point on posting references is well taken. I'll do that too in addition to deleting the reference to the reason for anger by the crowd as pandering to Muslim votes. I read your comment after posting it. That is why you don't find it already in place.
I forgot to add one point. Notice the way you describe Rama as a mythical figure. That was an assertion. Would you make the same assertion regarding Jesus, Mohammed flying on a horse etc? I don't see you making such corrections there in an assertive tone. Clearly that shows your prejudices.
Observing Hindus around the world, I see that they do not strap themselves with explosives and blast themselves in public places, do not hijack planes and slam them into buildings and do not wage religious wars. I can only conclude that the allegations against Hindus being the most evil people on earth is fiction.
I agree about the mythical figure part. My theory about all of these figures is that there must have been someone somewhere with some small following and the followers built up fiction about these figures. My point is the unequal treatment of various religions - Christianity and Judaism is usually treated as history while assertions about the "mythical" nature of other religions is made. I have heard the term "Hindu mythology" but never "Christian mythology."
BTW, Organiser is a mouthpiece of RSS and Anand Patwardhan is a known Communist sympathiser. However, the piece about the evidence at Ayodhya must have been a good one because the facts are on their side.
Unfortunately, India's media as well as academics were controlled by the Communists until the 1990s when the stranglehold on the academia was broken. That is why everything is very contentious in India - Aryan Invasion Theory was made up by Max Mueller, a missionary who fitted it into the claim that Biblical creation occured around 3987 BCE, treatment of all events as class struggles (Hindu vs Muslim fits into this), hiding of Muslim atrocities - travel across North India and not a single temple which is undamaged is older than 150 years though the civilization is 1000s of years old while South India which escaped Islamic rule has very old temples in all their splendour, branding Hindus as evil - evidence shows the contrary, indians are peaceful people who welcomed people of other religions over the ages while they themselves never fought back when they were evicted by Idi Amin, by the dictators in Burma and even puny Fiji.
To let you know where I'm coming from, I am an agnost and a libertarian. I've created a new id - LibertarianAnarchist for convenience. I am still learning the format to make an entry. So pardon me if you find anything incomplete. I'll post the references you suggested.
OneGuy, are you being deliberately obtuse? The previous paragraph contains text that clearly states that the Archaeological Survey of India found evidence of a temple structure. It's inappropriate for you to insert a paragraph that says "no evidence has been found", in direct contradiction of the previous paragraph. Edit it so it is in line with the above text, fine, but the way it's written is absurd. Graft 19:18, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No, you are being obtuse. You implied in the article that only Muslims dispute the finding of this Archaeological Survey. That's not the case. The ASI report was published in 2003. This quote from a non-Muslim historian is dated at May 2004, so clearly "Muslim groups" are not the only ones who dispute the claim. And here is another review of ASI report by Dr Sushil Shrivastava, a Professor at Allahabad University, the author of the book The Disputed Mosque: A Historical Inquiry [9]. Clearly some experts think ASI report doesn't show evidence of Temple structure OneGuy 00:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The edits done on 15 and 16 January deleted prior information and added POV material. We are all trying to be NPOV on wikipedia, so let's have a fair representation of both sides. This demands some effort and good will from both sides.
Furthermore, there are some severe inaccuracies. For example, there is the following instance: "Richard M Eaton, an American historian of medieval India, in his Essays on Islam and Indian History documents desecration of all Hindu temples between 1192 and 1760. The total adds up to 80."
This is ridiculous. First of all, Eaton in his controversial book does not claim that this list is exhaustive. And, if we look at the list of eighty cases, there is for example this instance: “1094: Benares, Ghurid army”. This doesn't mean the Ghurid Army destroyed just one temple, because if we take the time to look at the sources he used, we read the Ghurid royal army “destroyed nearly one thousand temples, and raised mosques on their foundations”. So this "eigthty" neeeds some zeros added.
Here are some links, for reference:
--
Kdlb 21:13, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
None of the edits by Lalit Shastri quotes Richard M Eaton, so I don't know why you bring him into this discussion. Regarding a Personal Point of View, why do you bring that up here - Instead of using hackneyed cliques kindly give specific examples where we have violated our strict neutrality or shut up.
The edits made, represent a brief and factual account of the events at Ayhodya when the Mosque was destroyed the sources quoted are Time magazine journalists Jefferson Penberthy and Anita Pratap - These journalists are quoted by name as they are considered credible witnesses by the High Court of Allahabad where they gave evidence against LK Advani who faces crimnal charges.
Many other witnesses were present and amongst the journalists there. The BBC crew filmed the destruction and part of the narrative is from the BBC news team. We are grateful to Syed Naqi Editor of India's leading newspaper the Tribune for also describing the events. A personal friend of Lilit Shastri, Rahul Bajpai of Reuters was also assigned to cover Ahyodya and the mosque since 1990. The narrative is taken from these sources and you can contact them to confirm.
Also quoted on the myth of a Hindu temple being there are Professor Gopal head of Social Sciences & history at the Jawharlal Nehru University and son of Dr Radhakrisnan President of India, & Romilla Thapar Historian of Ancient India also from the JUNU. Romilla Thapar is advisor to the Govt of India on Ancient Indian history and is amongst a panel which overseas the content of textbooks in Indian Schools.
We have also taken the point of view of the VHP, RSS and the BJP all complicit destroying the Temple and have described the behavior of their leaders Uma Bharati and LK Advani who encouraged the mob from a podium constructed by the VHP so that their leadershp could witness the destruction.
However if there are those who disagree it goes without saying you can bring your points to this discussion but remember there are highly intelligent academics who lurk watching these pages - So please do not bring rubbish - But pearls of wisdom and knowledge are always welcome by almost everybody
Also It must be remembered this is not a Hindu - Muslim thing - We at Wikipedia are more enlightened than that - Racism, Bigotry, Obscurantism, ignorance and superstition are to be shunned by all men of wisdom
We do not care if it was a mosque or Temple although the historians who have any credibility Internationally say that there was no Temple.
We do care about the people slaughtered by the actions of those in India who try and spread communal strife, It is worth remembering during the rule of the RSS and its political wing the BJP twice more people died of communal violence in India then those that died in the Twin Towers.
User:81.1.123.238
Hello AladdinSE, Thanks for your good edits. Personally, until recently I didn't know very much about this debate, and I am still rather an outsider to this topic, that's why I won't contribute much to the article itself.
I think, the whole topic could have been solved more peacefully, if both parties had talked together, but unfortunately the whole thing was exploited by politicians on both sides.
As a sidenote, not all Muslims seem to adher to the views of the two "rivaling Masjid Committees", for example: Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said: "It is the duty of every nationalist Indian to protect the birthplace of Lord Rama to save India's honour, prestige and cultural heritage.... Anti-national and communal activities of Muslim fundamentalists are a blot on the entire community... It is the duty of all nationalist Muslims to expose such designs and accept the truth." Ahmed Zakaria is quoted by Farzana Versey as saying : "There is absolutely no question of our identity being submerged. The Babri Masjid committee does not represent all Muslims. How can two or three people decide ?"
Some of the problems in the article are: 1) Political debate. Still biased. Should also show the efforts that were made to solve the whole thing peacefully, and how this was undone by politicians. 2) Archaeological evidence. This is still biased and incomplete. 3) Literary evidence. The literary evidence should be discussed and/or criticised 4) The article has a lenghty discussion with pictures of the destruction of the mosque, but doesn't discuss the destruction of this and other temples by Babar and others. According to some sources, there were two destructions of this temple, one in the 12-13 century (the temple was after rebuilt) and one by Babar.
I think the article still needs some editing before it can be called npov, and believe someone will remove it from the npov disputes after this is done. A look at the viewpoints from both sides will confirm that the article still isn't npov. Regards, -- Kdlb 09:50, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Kdlb, I think your Eaton book edit was necessary and well placed. As far as the further discussion of alleged destruction of temples by Babur and others, that you want included, naturally there is going to be no where near as much material, much less pictures, as is available for the Babri destruction. We're talking 1992 versus the 16th century. Also, that the archeological evidence is incomplete and disputed is clearly noted in the article. Further discussion of literary evidence would be fine, if more contributors would site such work. When I did that last exhaustive edit, I deliberately left the Disputed Neutrality tag, because I believed that there was still bias and emotionalism evident, and was hoping new contributors with a fresh outlook would help remedy that. Perhaps I will revisit the article later. I have become too involved with all these extensive rewrites, and I need to regain an outside perspective.-- A. S. A. 12:06, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
I think we need to put a hold on more pictures, the article cannot hold any more, al least not gracefully. I removed the recent addition of the mobs at the gate, since kar sevaks are shown in abundance already. I have reverted a number of Levy's edits because they added an emotional POV taint to the article, and belabored existing points. Others I agreed with, and simply reorganized them to better incorporate the new information with the flow of the article.-- A. S. A. 18:30, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
I see that anonymous user 81.1.118.31 had profound objections to my last revision, but has since withdrawn his/her Talk comments, I was only able to read them via History tracking. I'll tell you what I told Levy. I am not here to champion a cause, I am here to help create a proper encyclopedic article, free from emotional POV baggage. I have already clearly stated for the record that I believe the demolition was a disgrace. That does not mean I will allow the article to be a monotonous breast-beating Muslim-dominated propaganda bulletin. And I'll have you know I was the first contributor to introduce a picture of the Mosque, and the first to introduce a section on architecture and style [see history], so I am not only an editor of other people's submissions. Furthermore, you harm your cause by being so blatantly repetitious and one-sided. The general public reading the heavily POV versions of this article will more likely than not give small credence to Muslim viewpoints when they are so relentlessly thrust in their faces without proper recourse to other viewpoints. Balance and brevity should be our guiding principles.-- A. S. A. 21:23, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
Pictures of this mosque should not be resized a large part of the article is on the architecture of the mosque The present pictures support and complement the article. I have recverted them back to their original size. I also wish to point out 5that Kaal feels uncomfortable with these pictures as I can see no other reason why he should try to make them so tiny.
Please see Wikipedia's Picture Tutorial for guidelines on picture layout and format.-- A. S. A. 03:05, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
I made some expansions to the article and some reorganisations. I moved all matter relevant to the archaeology of the temple to the Ram Janmabhoomi article, because it discusses the existence or non-existence of the temple. Most of the history of the mosque after 1528 (or after 1194) is now in the Babri Mosque article. The Ayodhya article itself should of course only discuss the city, not the debate. I also expanded the archaeology and literature and other sections. In fact, a lot of important information was missing in the article and may still be missing. Hopefully other editors (like User:AladdinSE who has been one of the best editors to this article, as far as I can see) take a look at it and write something from their perspective. -- Kyuss 14:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
As a original contributor to this article along with J Levy and Richard Charlesworth of Cambridge University and the mosque photographs by R Bajpai of Reuters, I feel entitled to point out. User Kyuss seems to be a rabid member of the RSS, I wish to point out that his self proclaimed well meaning edits are simply a hidden agenda, the destruction of an article put together many months ago, and then constantly editeds to render it almost meaningless. It is clear user Kyuss fancies himself an historian and editor – However his facts are wrong and his edits clumsy. But this is wikipedia and he is most welcome to contribute even though we waste a lot of time having to point out the errors of his ways and cleaning up his mess. However his work on the article may not be the innocence of the ignorant and uninformed. He might be a paid up member of a communal organization called the RSS as he has expressed a similar type of bigotry and follows the RSS party line and version of Indian history. This version has been proved a fiction by all leading Indian and International historians. We know he has very little knowledge of history from his work – but sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. His edits do not enlighten, spread darkness hate and misinformation. User Kyuss’s dirty hand is everywhere trying to distort history. If he wishes to write about a temple let him set up his own Ram temple article. The Babri was one of India's leading mosques and an important archeological and historic monument. The mosque was part of India's heritage and history. After all the Muslims did rule India for 800 years. The article is about a mosque which existed as the photographs will testify. If there was a temple at the site then all means start an article elsewhere giving details of the temple and say it existed before the mosque But please do not distort history. And also abuse the intelligence of wiki readers. You are teaching newcomers, the evil sectarian and hate spreading ideology of the RSS This way of thinking has caused the deaths of thousands of Indians via riots
SO folks BEWARE USER KYUSS an ignorant man can also be a dangerous man.
Lalit Shastri
In reply to Lalit Shastri's vandalism and to his love-letter from above:
-- Kyuss 08:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, can I ask who got rid of pictures of Uma Bharti and Advani standing in front of the mosque, as it was being destroyed and those of Kar Savaks wielding cutlasses. Secondly I wrote the upper third of the article on the architecture, thats still there, I am not defending my own work, there is no need to. But of other contributers which is not there. did you delete these????? I have reverted the article to its original and no doubt you Kyuss will immediately go for the revert button. Meanwhile user Kyuss that was not a "love letter" why should I love you, don't be silly. That was more of a whipping a chastisement. Maybe you are one those who LOVES being caned, some sort of repressed perverted gratification to go with your rabid fanaticism. I have contributed a section on homophobia and the SA of the Third Reich, those other brown shirts, only this time its Khaki short pants from Nagpaur. Keep editing articles that’s what wiki is for. You of the Bajrang monkey Brigade are entitled to express an opinion in this manner expose yourself, this time flashing another very small part of your anatomy your brains. After all Wiki is a democracy.
Lalit Shastri
WikiSceptic 04:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
The article says that nearly a million karsevaks destroyed the mosque - i'm really not sure about this number. I've heard numbers like '200000' before, but I know that was in dispute as well. Does anyone know of any accurate estimates? Willardo 03:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree with putting this discussion / article in with the wikiproject on Hinduism. We have to remember that there is a significant and crucial difference between Hinduism as a religion, and Hindu nationalism, the significant force behind the Babri destruction. Putting them together is a dangerous political argument. Willardo 10:04, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Let me first congratulate all those who contributed to this article. Its quite an accomplishment in itself. The part about the destruction of the mosque is not an easy topic to write about and it is even more difficult to keep it a Neutral Point Of View as this was anything but a neutral event. I hope that this article will be nominated to become a feature article so that more people will read it and understand how complex relations between different communities in India are.
hydkat 20:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Please note that images licensed "to Wikipedia only", "for non-commercial use", or "for educational use" are candidates for speedy deletion (I3). Wikipedia is an attempt to create a free, reusable encyclopedia, including commercial re-use, and such licenses are incompatible with this goal. Any such images may be deleted at any time, and I would like to very much encourage the editors here to remove such images from this article and find freely-licensed replacements. Thanks for understanding. Jkelly 23:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Should it be urdu instead of arabic in the intro.-- Dangerous-Boy 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The edits by 82.44.179.214 use pov language like "these Nazis", makes offtopic allegations and is unsourced. It needs to be npov'ed and sourced, if there is something valuable in it.
Muslims claim that neither history nor fact can come to prove the Hindu case. Hindu motives are not confined to Babri Masjid. If they succeed in snatching away Babri Masjid from Muslims, it will be made a precedent to extend the agitation to every other place of religious importance to the Muslims.
They claimthat is clear that the allegations, on which, the demands of RSS, Vishwa Hindu Parishad & Hindu Munnani are based for laying claim to Babri Masjid are rooted in hatred.
In India, several Buddhist and Jain temples were demolished and several Hindu temples constructed instead. If the Buddhists and Jain claim on historical demands for justice, then will the Hindu agree to demolish them and allow the Buddhists and Jain to erect their places of worship?
They further say that there is no limit to the Hindu fanatical imagination like of the theory that Taj Mahal is a Shiva Temple? A paper presented at the World Hindu Conference at Columbo in April 1982 claimed that "The Hajrul Aswad (Kaaba, the Black Stone) is only a form of Shivalinga."
According to the District Gazetteer Faizabad 1905, it is said that "up to this time (1855), both the Hindus and Muslims used to worship in the same building. But since the Mutiny (1857), an outer enclosure has been put up in front of the Masjid and the Hindus forbidden access to the inner yard, make the offerings on a platform (chabootra), which they have raised in the outer one."
Militant Hindus in 1883 wanted to construct a temple on this chabootra, but the Deputy Commissioner prohibited the same on Jan. 19, 1885. Raghubir Das, a mahant, filed a suit before the Faizabad Sub-Judge. Pandit Harikishan was seeking permission to construct a temple on this chabootra measuring 17 ft. x 21 ft. the suit was dismissed. An appeal was filed before the Faizabad District Judge, Colonel J.E.A. Chambiar who after an inspection of spot on March 17, 1886, dismissed the appeal.
A Second Appeal was filed on May 25, 1886, before the Judicial Commissioner of Awadh, W. Young, who also dismissed the appeal. With this, the first round of legal battle fought by the Hindu militants came to an end.
During the "communal riots" of 1934, walls around the Masjid and one of the domes of the Masjid were damaged. These were reconstructed by the British Government.
On mid-night of December 22, 1949, when the police guards were asleep, idols of Rama and Sita were quietly smuggled into the Masjid and were planted by a group of Hindu Nazis. This was reported by constable, Mata Prasad, the next morning and recorded at the Ayodhya police station.
According to a pre-conceived plan, the following morning (Dec. 23, 1949), a large "Hindu" crowd made a "frantic attempt" to enter the Masjid on the pretext of offering puja to the idols illegally planted. The District Magistrate K.K. Nair has recorded that "The crowd made a most determined attempt to force entry. The lock was broken and policemen were rushed off their feet. All of us, officers and men, somehow pushed the crowd back and held the gate. The sadhus recklessly hurled themselves against men and arms and it was with great difficulty that we managed to hold the gate. The gate was secured and locked with a powerful lock brought from outside and police force was strengthened (5:00 pm)." Thus, the fight of fanatics became frustrated.
On hearing this shocking news Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru became very furious and directed UP Chief Minister Govind Ballabh Pant, to see that the idols were removed. Under Pant's orders, Chief Secretary Bhagwan Sahay and Inspector-General of Police V.N. Lahiri sent immediate instructions to Faizabad to remove the idols. However, K.K. Nair feared that the Hindu mob would cause "bloodshed and manslaughter" and pleaded inability to carry out the orders. Since then, the Hindu extremists came to believe that "disorder and violence" alone would pay.
They say that it prove that the Hindu militants believe in "bloodshed and manslaughter" as a means to achieve their goals. On Jan. 5, 1950 the chairman of the Faizabad-cum-Ayodhya Municipal Board was appointed Receiver to take charge of the Masjid under Sec. 145 of the Cr.P.C. The Civil suit (No. 2 of 1950) filed by Gopal Singh Visharad on Jan. 16, 1950 before the Civil Judge Faizabad seeking permission to worship these idols (which had been illegally planted in the Masjid), is still pending and the matter is now before the High Court. There are eight defendants including five Muslims and the Govt. of UP. The statement of the Deputy Commissioner, J.N. Ugra, filed before the court, said: "on the night of Dec. 22, 1949, the idols of Ramachandraji were surreptitiously and wrongly put inside the Masjid."
On Jan. 25, 1986, a 28-year old Umesh Chandra Pandey who was not even born when the suit was filed, went to court seeking permission for himself and his co-religionists to worship these idols in the Masjid. The District Judge, K.M. Pandey recorded a statement of the District magistrate (i.e., the Revenue Officer) T.K. Pandey and without even giving an opportunity to the others who were parties to the dispute, passed an interim order related to a dispute whose file was at the High Court. At the time of passing the orders, the main file was not before the said District Judge!
Within minutes of passing the order the locks that had been put 37 years ago (on Dec. 23, 1949) were broken and "idol worship" started. It is very clear that V.C. Pandey, K.M. Pandey and T.K. Pandey all belong to a subsect of a sub-caste, as their very names indicate.
The state TV lost no time to telecast the opening of the locks, the worship and the mob fanfare on that very day. Muslims claim that this goes to show the TV officials might have had prior knowledge of the court's orders. Evidently the media was under the influence of high-caste Brahmins.
The upper Hindu caste-controlled "national press" has hidden the above mentioned facts while highlighting the events related to the Baht Masjid / Ram-Janam-Bhoomi issue. The media is projecting only the Nazi view-point.
Lately, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and other like minded militant Brahmins are holding meetings where pledges are being taken that the Babri Masjid shall not be released to Muslims irrespective of the final judicial verdict. And these Nazis are the very people who often boast that "judiciary is the only hope of India". Those who advocate the rule of law are breaking the law on Babri Masjid. The tradition of treating the mosque site as the birthplace of Rama appears to have begun in early l8th century. The earliest suggestion that the Babri Masjid is in proximity to the birthplace of Ram was made by the Jesuit priest Joseph Tieffenthaler, whose work in French was published in Berlin in 1788. It says:
"Emperor Aurangzeb got demolished the fortress called Ramkot, and erected on the same place a Mahometan temple with three cuppolas. Others believe that it was constructed by Babar. We see 14 columns of black stone 5 spans high that occupy places within the fortress. Twelve of these columns now bear the interior arcades of the Masjid; two (of the 12) make up the entrance of the cloister. Two others form part of the tomb of a certain Moor. It is related that these columns, or rather the debris of these columns, were brought from Lanka (called Ceylon by the Europeans) by Hanuman, chief of the monkeys." which in French reads as
l'empereur Aurungzeb a détruit la forteresse appelée Ramkot et construit à la même chose placer un temple musulman avec 3 dômes. D'autres indiquent qu'il a été construit par Babar. On peut voir 14 colonnes faites en pierre noire qui soutiennent des découpages. Plus tard Aurungzeb, et certains indiquent que Babar a détruit l'endroit afin d'empêcher des heathens de pratiquer leurs cérémonies.Toutefois ils ont continué à pratiquer leurs cérémonies religieuses dans le places, sachant ceci pour avoir été endroit de naissance de Rama, en le circulant 3 fois et en se prosternant sur la terre..
We see on the left a square platform 5 inches above ground, 5 inches long and 4 inches wide, constructed of mud and covered with lime. The Hindus call it bedi, that is to say, the birth-place. The reason is that here there was a house in which Beschan, (Bishan-Vishnu) took the form of Rama, and his three brothers are also said to have been born. Subsequently, Aurangzeb, or according to others, Babar razed this place down, in order not to give the Gentiles (Hindus) occasion to practice their superstition. However, they continued to follow their superstitious practices in both places, believing it to be the birthplace of Rama."Questions of history
This record reveals that Aurangzeb demolished the Ramkot fortress; that either he, or Babar constructed a Masjid there; the 12 columns of black stone pillars were brought from Lanka; and when veneration of Rama became prevalent after the 17th century, a small rectangular mud platform was built to mark the birthplace of Rama.(History and Geography of India, by Joseph Tieffenthaler, (published in French by Bernoulli in 1785))
However, this account does not explicitly mention the existence of a temple but a mud platform.
In Urdu the name of the Masjid is بابري and the name of Emperor Babur is بابر
Therefore we can derive that Babri Masjid = Babur's Masjid or Masjid (Mosque) of Babur in english. Mustaqbal 20:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Many of the claims regarding the scope of the violence are unsubstantiated. Point of fact, articles by Francis Gautier have pointed out that physical violence against people during the repatriation were minimal. Until I clean it up, the TotallyDisputed Tag needs to be there.I'll need to research a bit in order to present the muslim point of view neutrally, as well as get the facts about the actual extent of the violence allegedlyperpetrated by Hindu nationalists, together with death toll figures.( Netaji 13:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC))
I find that a particular editor has edited the page massively with edit summaries like tags/ typos and so on to camouflage the addition/deletion made by him. This is rally sad and a point of introspection: are we building the project or trying to make fun of it! It was really interesting to see a bot revert his edit when he changed thirteen to 31. Bots are intelligent than wikipedians!!! -- Bhadani 15:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
P. V. Narasimha Rao, the 9th Prime Minister of India, has termed Babari Masjid as “controversial structure” in his book Ayodhya 6 December 1992. The natural presumption is that a section of the government, including him, believed that it was not a Mosque in the conventional sense as the structure perhaps did not conform to the Islamic principles to be designated as a Mosque. However, my knowledge in such matter is rather poor. I would like to learn more. Thanks. -- Bhadani 16:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Rushdie 20:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I thought this article was fine back then? It was pretty well balanced. What happened?-- D-Boy 05:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
"The Muslim side has been unable to disprove the fact that a Hindu temple existed in the area."
There is nothing that even remotely indicates that in the source. BhaiSaab talk 21:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted a cleanup tag on the History section because the vocabulary and organization of the section is really lacking. Also, the section doesn't seem wikified enough. Mar de Sin Speak up! 12:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow... there is a Hindu Mulsim war everywhere !! Anyhow... maybe when u guys are done fighting with each other you should pay attention to the 'fact' that this article is not neutral. It bends heavily towards the Hindu point of view (i think it has been written by one). Its pretty nice till the architecture part but then the whole 'history according to the hindu point of view' stinks of propaganda. This matter can be debated forever... so if we have such a strong representation of the history according to the hindus we should also have a equally strong case put forward from the muslim perspective (i'm sure there is one). Now you can probably start disecting me and my character here but i'm just a regular wikipedia fan who hates to see biased articles !
So maybe this article can be moderated by a hindu and a muslim together.. just to keep the balance.
Ainz
61.246.25.36 21:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Terrorism needs to be backed up by numerous mainstream sources. The demolition of a building in which nobody was killed is hardly terrorism. Baka man 19:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Pens withdrawn 05:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
acts which are: intended to create fear or "terror" this is what it is described there. Destroying a masjid which was a symbol of harmony for centuries among muslims and hindus to create communal tensions must be described with a more stronger word than terrorism. Pens withdrawn 06:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"It was destroyed in a well planned move by groups of Hindu extremists( RSS and VHP) in a riot on December 6, 1992"
"It was destroyed by Hindu activists in a riot on December 6, 1992." --- current version
major problem was with the word "extremists" -- lets agree with "activists" (just for compromise)
next part of the problem is inclusion of group names RSS and VHP. User:Nobleeagle says that- they were not the only group and deletes that part (see the history of the page). But no one denies the fact that they are also involved. And it is also know to everyone that the masjid was destroyed in a well planned move (even in the presence of tight security arranged by central govt of India)
So lets make the phrase as "It was destroyed in a well planned move by groups of Hindu activists( RSS, VHP and others) in a riot on December 6, 1992"
word 'others' is added to address User:Nobleeagle's problem and activist is retained.
Trying to hide these facts in wikipedia doesn't erase the history. It id so stupid to think like that. ---- Pens withdrawn 11:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states that one thing is clear- There was a temple and it was demolished by Muslims and a mosque built to symbolize Islam victory over paganism. There are evidence from it from many sources. While the site provides the evidence for first assertion it does not provide any for the second. It may be possible that latter a mosque was constructed on the site.
Can we get a paragraph detailing the destruction of the mosque, and the aftermath of it's destruction.
Criticized by fundamentalist Islamist preachers or criticized by real archaeologists? A bunch of imams whining about the findings of a team of respected archaeologists does not make it controversial. Baka man 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
::Dear Bakasuprman, Sir..I have seen a common refrain from you very learned scholar , Sir, that makes you blame the other point of view as coming from "bunch of imams whining" and Sir, somewhere I have also seen you say about the " Wakf Boards" that own the Babri Masjid land as "bunch of fundamentalists" etc..So Dear Sir, Please go through the following lines:
- NEW DELHI: The Sangh is a Parivar once again, thanks to the [Archaeological Survey of India's controversial report on Ayodhya http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/181530.cms]." The author of this report is not a very bearded fundamentalist but a mainstream journalist from The Times of India
- Also Sir, the analysis of the peice below did not come through a bearded Muslim fundamentalist but a national newspaper The Hindu
- THE ARCHAEOLOGICAL Survey of India's [report of its excavation of the Babri Masjid site has important failings which render it suspect http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/op/2003/10/14/stories/2003101400160300.htm]. Both in what it includes, and in what it excludes, the report does not address the task to which the High Court directed it, namely to determine whether a mosque and/or a Ram temple existed at that site. The ASI has said that it has discovered the bases of pillars which originally supported the roof of a temple at a layer below the mosque. It adduces the discovery of terracotta figurines at the site to strengthen this claim. And it claims to have discovered a "circular shrine" which it conjectures contained a Sivalinga, which it would have us believe fortifies the claim to a Ram temple at the site. However, in fact the evidence does not indicate that a Ram temple existed at this site. On the contrary, important evidence which the ASI has not properly examined or accounted for includes animal bones and glazed ware, both foreign to a Hindu Ram temple of medieval times.
- Dearest Sir, It does not take a space scientist to understand that the contention that this report was controversial comes from reliable and verifiable sources while sir, your removal of these and ascribing of evidences against your point of view are based on name calling, hardly an encycopedic exercise and attitude. Terminador 03:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Dear Friends, One great contributor Sir Bakasuprman has been reverting edits from other users citing WP:V and WP:ATT, Now it is amply clear that all the edits in this change are verifianle and from reliable sources.If Sir, Bakasuprman has some care for the Wikipedia, he should be able to explain why inspite of all that has been discussed just in the para above , the ASI report on the site excavations in Ayodhya are not controversial.[ [11]]
Otherwise, I believe reasons exist that Sir Bakasuprman , has been exhausting other contributors patience by attacking well known facts verifiable through reliable sources instead of informing himself before removing other user's edits. 59.177.0.127 05:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Terminador 05:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
>>You also seem to be harping on what a bunch of random mullahs and their Pseudo-secular journalist friends wrote, while disregarding the scholarly report and the actual findings of said report. The fact that remains of a temple were found under the rubble. Baka man 17:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
>> The report was only criticized by Muslim bodies not archaeologists
Hindu activists nets 46k]
Response:
NEW DELHI: The Archaeological Survey of India's excavation report on Ayodhya, suggesting ‘‘a huge structure indicative of remains, which are distinctive features associated with the temples of north India, has been found wanting at many levels by archaeologists and historians.
>>You also seem to be harping on what a bunch of random mullahs and their
Pseudo-secular journalist friends wrote..
Response:
>> Rather than trolling, and hiding behind IP's to promote Hinduphobic bs like "cult of Rama" indicates that you are merely here for an agenda.
Response:
Terminador 03:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
>> Also, your use of Hindu "extremists" does not meet WP:ATT.
Response:
[12], [13], [14]. Hmm... lets take a look at the tribune chandigarh. The Waqf Board and AIMPLB are the only prominent critics noted in all the papers provided on the web. I fail to see why you blank the note on the actual conclusion of the ASI report while soapboxing for an op-ed columnist. I dont need a wikistalking WP:SPA to tell me what I can, will, or can't do on wiki. Baka man 23:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Kristin M. Romey, Flashpoint Ayodhya in Archaeological Ethics, (Karen D. Vitelli, John Stephen Colwell-Chanthaphonh Eds.) Rowman Altamira, 2006, ISBN: 075910963X. Doldrums 12:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The text reads ‘The contemporary Tarikh-i-Babari records that Babar's troops "demolished many Hindu temples at Chanderi’." - Why are we quoting non-existant memoirs? The only memoirs of the era are the Ta'rikh-e Rashidi and the baburnama, neither of which contain the previously quoted text. Explain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.7.55.146 ( talk) 19:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is there not actually any content in this article describing the destruction of the Mosque? Kind of a big thing to be missing, it just jumps from the 40s to the present day. Also the actual text of this article is utter garbage, it really shows that all the effort here went into pov-pushing instead of actual writing. I will be adding copy-edit and cleanup tags to the article as soon as I can edit it. -- Pat Larsen 02:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it is important to have a further section on this article, like relevant links, citing how many hundereds of Hindu temples have gone down in Muslim countries compared to one measly mosque in India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.64.106 ( talk) 21:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Babri Masjid/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Please check the images posted on this article. Several of these are images of some other monuments and not the Babari masjid - especially the images of the interior. I had visited Babari Masjid in 1991 with my family. The interiors of the monument were absolutely plain, with no carvings or inscriptions in Arabic. Also, it was covered in white plaster, with no ornate decorations of any sort. Please verify the images with Archaeological Survey of India or some other reliable sources rather than this so called reuters reporter, which I am sure is a fake. |
Last edited at 16:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 14:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I am a college professor attempting to assign Wikipedia edits gleened from peer reviewed scholarly journals. One of my students, EmilyEllis09, had her edit reverted with the comment "POV. Please discuss on talk page." Can you clarify how the entry violated the neutral point of view policy and help me understand the process of wikipedia editing better. -- Ellencavanaugh ( talk) 01:45, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Reaction of DEMOLATION?Please,it's demolition.
Deepak ( talk) 14:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
It is generally thought that the Mosque was built by Babur after demolishing the Rama temple, because an inscription on the mosque records his name. Although we have a detailed account of the life of Babur in the form of his diary ( Babur Nama), the pages of the relevant period are missing in the diary. But it is also alleged that the Mosque already existed before Babur, who may only have renovated the building.
Part of the paragraph was removed as it had no source and was not neutral. -- Joshua Issac ( talk) 20:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I watched a video (by a western source) that documented the Babri mosque demolition, and it claimed that most of the riots that broke out were targeted towards Muslims. I'm not sure if its the truth or not, but might be worth looking into. There's only one sentence here which only says 'riots were broken out' but doesn't give details of who was predominantly affected by the riots, or any other details such as main cities/states of the riots, etc. -- digitwoman ( talk) 12:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
A few pages which could become sources: http://www.geocities.com/indianfascism/Babri/babri_masjid.htm http://pakistantimes.net/2005/02/04/kashmir5.htm
Joshua Issac ( talk) 19:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
We wouldn't want any bias Sources here would we. I don't think any pakistani sources will be nuteral. please dont add the above as the pakisatnis have always tried to potray India as anti muslim and being a muslim i thank Alla that he made me an indian than a pakistani.
Mannan Burhan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.45.10.20 ( talk) 17:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1942725,00.html Mughalnz ( talk)
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/11/2009112414593176363.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8376755.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/india-babri-mosque-violence-report
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gRlNDzA652rwzZ8TExAc06KiIq_Q
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1124/p06s04-wosc.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aKUCmGe.WP5k
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSDEL486832
http://www.radioaustralianews.net.au/stories/200911/2751412.htm?desktop
http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/25/stories/2009112557980100.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2009/11/25/stories/2009112558130100.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mughalnz ( talk • contribs) 22:09, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
In the section titled, 'Demolition of Babri Masjid', it refers to the mob that demolished the mosque as "Hindu nationalists". I think a more neutral word to use would be "Hindu extremists". Using "hindu nationalists", we're giving the impression that nationalists, who were Hindu, wanted to destroyed it. Sridharrao ( talk) 17:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)Sridharrao
In the article, the congregation of Hindus in Ayodhya on 6th Dec 1992 is described as a political rally. However, it is beyond doubt and a commonly known fact that the rally was part of a nationwide movement by Hindus to bring awareness and solidify support for a Ram Temple on the disputed structure. The support for the this movement, commonly known as Ram Janmabhoomi Andalon or Ayodhya movement, was widespread. Please remove the reference of political rally from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajmohata ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
After a few edits over the last couple of days I believe I have made a decent attempt at a cleanup. I believe the peacock terms have been removed and there now a balanced POV. The overall tone of the article favours neither side and presents the facts in a balanced manner. This achieves NPOV, because not every section or line in a contentious article can possibly be NPOV in and of itself. As long as the opposing viewpoints are dealt with clearly and in a fair proportion, then overall NPOV is maintained. What IS lacking here are citations. I also agree it would be good to have a few more details regarding the events on the day of destruction. Mdw0 ( talk) 07:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I am surprised to just find a line about Demolition of Babri Masjid, an important event of post-independence, especially considering its aftermath on the very fabric of India, an historical event like this deserves more. Thanks! -- Ekabhishek talk 06:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree. In fact, I believe the Demolition of the Babri Masjid should have its own article. Leftsideend ( talk) 19:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. In fact, I came to this article for the sole purpose of finding out about the demolition. In fact, I would think that for non-Indian audiences, the demolition is probably the point of interest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.7.153 ( talk) 14:25, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I have added few referenced facts about the Babri Mosque#Demolition Adi4094 ( talk) 11:11, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
We had some images linking to the main article. All these images have disappeared from English version but are available elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.100.179.9 ( talk) 11:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC) [15]
These images were found in the older versions of Wikipedia such as the ones hosted here: [16]
Any idea ? Can we sense erasing history here again? 81.100.179.9 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC).
This page is begging for semi-protection. Zealots are using this page to provoke their opponents by making a mess of what is otherwise an informative and useful article. If people cant accept there are two sides to the Ayodhya debate then the barriers WILL go up. Mdw0 ( talk) 02:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
That's right!! Adi4094 ( talk) 03:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
In light of the expected verdict on the issue on the 24th of September, and as the issue is controversial, I request semi-protection.
Hi, I saw that this page has been inactive for a while, so I archived it. See the archive if you want to see the discussion. If you wish to add anything, please copy the relevant bits from the archive and paste it here, then add your comment(s). Thank you. Joshua Issac ( talk) 12:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm learning about Wikipedia. I want to read about hotly discussed topics. 59.163.32.26 ( talk) 15:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
MUSLIMS VERSION OF EVENTS Was there a temple beneath the Babri Masjid? Having examined the records of excavations conducted by Prof. B.B.Lal, former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) in the seventies at the Ayodhya site, preserved at the Purana Qila office of the ASI, a team of four historians and archaeologists came to the conclusion that there was no proof of it. They explained their findings and conclusions at the press conference held at the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR), New Delhi, on October 23,1992. The experts: Prof. R.S. Sharma, former Chairman of the ICHR; Prof. M. Athar Ali (Rtd.) Department of History, Aligarh University; Prof. Suraj Bhan (Rtd.), Professor of History, Kurukshetra University; and Prof. D.N. Jha, Professor of History, University of Delhi. They had earlier been to Ayodhya and made on-the-spot studies of the Ayodhya excavation site.
The new material evidence relates to excavations done by Prof. B.B. Lal over 11 years ago in areas in the vicinity of the Babri Masjid. Prof. Lal has since published a series of documents on results of his studies. He made an announcement recently that brick base found in the vicinity of the masjid could be meant for sustaining pillars and therefore suggest the existence of a temple-like structure south of the Babri masjid. The BJP is taking it as the basic evidence for the existence of a temple where the masjid stands.
The experts examined the site notebook and register of antiquities connected with the Ayodhya excavations, studied the drawings, plans, photographs, and excavated material and found that the recent claim of Prof. Lal regarding the existence of a mandir-like structure was unsubstantiated. The existence of a brick base for pillars does not prove that it could be of a temple. If there was a temple, at least some articles related to the temple could have been found during the excavations. No such evidence had been found by Prof. Lal.
Even in his own report submitted to the Archaeological Survey of India in 1976-77 and in 1979-80, Professor Lal had stated “several later medieval brick-and-kankar lime floors have been sighted, but the entire late period was devoid of any special interest.” The later medieval period indicated 17th-l8th centuries. If remains of a structure of 17th-l8th centuries, are found outside the masjid area, how do they prove the presence of a temple that was supposedly built in the 11th century and destroyed in the early 16th century? the experts asked. They also point out that the excavations did not reveal any pillars, or roof material of the supposed temple at the site where the brick pillar base stood. The mere presence of pillar bases does not make out a case for the existence of a temple.
Interestingly, pieces of glazed ware pottery were unearthed from the trenches above the floors associated with the brick-pillar base structure and immediately below the general floor of the Babri Masjid. It is an accepted fact that Islamic glazed-ware pottery has never been used in Hindu temple. The presence of the glazed pottery shows that as in other parts of Ayodhya, this site also was inhabited by Muslims around the thirteenth century, and the pillar structure could have been anything but a temple, had already fallen down and gone out of use before the Muslim habitation.
Now about the black basalt stone-pillars used in the four arches of the Masjid. VHP argues that they formed part of the temple which was destroyed. Similar pillars are also found in the graveyard nearby. All these differ in their style and diameter and their total lack of stratigraphic association rules out the possibility of their being an integral part of any single structure. Such pillars are also found in other parts of Ayodhya in completely unrelated contexts. Besides, the pillar bases existing at a distance of about 60 feet to the south of the Babri Masjid structure are in alignment with the pillars used in the Babri Masjid. They could have been part of a veranda or a dwelling place or an animal shed and are of no importance as such structures could be found in the area even now. Thus, archeological evidence so far suggests the existence of Muslim habitation proximal to the Masjid from the 13th century onwards. [Courtesy, Nation and the World, New Delhi, Nov. 16, 1992] There is no historical record stating that the site had a temple that was destroyed to build a mosque. TOI. The earliest mention of the Babri water well was in a two line reference to the Mosque in the Gazette of Faizabad District 1918 which says “There are no significant historical buildings here, except for various Buddhist shrines, the Babri Mosque is an ancient structure with a well which both the Hindus and Mussalmans claim has Miraculous properties.” The Babri Mosque was a large imposing structure with three domes, one central and two secondary. It is surrounded by two high walls, running parallel to each other and enclosing a large central courtyard with a deep well, which was known for its cold and sweet water. On the high entrance of the domed structure are fixed two stone tablets which bear two inscriptions in Persian declaring that this structure was built by one Mir Baqi on the orders of Babur. The walls of the Babri Mosque are made of coarse-grained whitish sandstone blocks, rectangular in shape, while the domes are made of thin and small burnt bricks. Both these structural ingredients are plastered with thick chunam paste mixed with coarse sand.
When did the Ayodhya controversy erupt? According to recorded history, Babri Masjid was built in 1528 by Mir Bank who was Babur's viceroy in that region. There is no historical record stating that the site had a temple that was destroyed to build a mosque. The mosque was known by several names, including Masjid-i Janmasthan, Jami Masjid, Sita Rasoi Masjid and so on. The District Gazetteer of Faizabad documents that the mosque was a place of worship for both religions. Incidents of communal violence over the ownership of the site started from 1853 and the British government tried to resolve it in 1859 by erecting a fence that divided the mosque into an inner and outer court. Hindus were allowed to construct a raised platform (chabutra) in the outer court, while the inner court was to be used only by Muslims.
Did the two-nation theory have an impact on the mosque? It is well known that the two-nation theory worked as a major divide between both communities in most parts of the country. The mosque did not remain untouched, as the site started witnessing communal riots since early 1910s. A major riot erupted in 1934 when police had to be called in to control the situation.
What was the 1949 controversy about? In December 1949, the controversy reached new heights when mahants decided to recite the Ramayana in front of the mosque. It was later reported by the devotees who had gathered for that recitation that the image of Lord Ram appeared inside the mosque. But the administration and the Muslim community were not impressed as it was alleged that idols were placed inside by Hindus who entered the mosque by breaking its locks. Because of the controversy, the place was locked up.
Who filed the first title suit? The first suit was filed in 1950 by Gopal Singh Visharad, a shopkeeper in Ayodhya. The suit was filed in Faizabad civil court, seeking a ruling that would grant permission to perform puja at the site. The second suit was filed by Paramhans Tamchandra Das, again in 1950, and it sought the same injunction. This suit was later withdrawn. In 1959, Nirmohi Akhara filed a title suit, claiming ownership of the site. This prompted the UP Sunni Ce-ntral Board of Waqfs to file the fourth suit in 1961. The fifth suit was filed in 1989. With one of these suits having been withdrawn, four title suits were pending in the Faizabad civil court. In 1989, these suits were transferred to Allahabad HC. TOI
Ancient Sanskrit Documents
IT IS surprising that the VHP has not been able to provide even a single ancient Sanskrit document in support of its claim that there had been an ancient belief in Ram-janmasthan at Ayodhya. On the contrary evidence suggests that reverence of Ayodhya as the birthplace of Ram began not before the l8th century. The only document in support of its claim is the Skanda Purana, which abounds in interpolations. At best, the core of it was compiled not earlier than 16th century. This Purana has a chapter extolling the greatness of Ayodhya (Ayodhya Mahatmya) which appears towards the end of the work and which clearly is a later addition. Even if we accept the location of the birthplace of Rama as given in the Ayodhya Mahatmya, it does not coincide with that of the Babri Masjid. According to the Skanda Purana, the birthplace of Rama is 500 dhanus (910 meters) westward of Laumash and 1009 dhanus (1835 meters) eastward of Vighneshvara. Laumash is identical with the present Rinamochana Ghat. Thus, if we follow the Skanda Purana directions, the birthplace of Rama should be located somewhere west, in the vicinity of the Brahmakunda, close to the bed of the Saryu. So even accounting to the Skanda Purana the birthplace of Rama cannot be located on the site where the Babri Masjid stands. Mughal Records, AD 1528
A PIECE of authentic recorded history regarding the Masjid is the Persian inscription put on the Masjid immediately upon its construction in AD 1528-29. In that inscription nowhere has it been mentioned that the Masjid was built after destroying a temple or upon the site of a temple. If Mir Baqi who constructed the Masjid had destroyed the temple, he would have considered it a meritorious act and would have mentioned it in the inscriptions. Tulsidas, AD 1575
WITHIN FIFTY years of the construction of the Babri Masjid, the celebrated poet Tulsidas composed the Ram Charit Manas (1575-76), written in Avadhi. Is it possible to believe that Tulsidas would not have given vent to his grief had the very birth-site of Lord Rama had been ravaged, its temple razed to the ground and a mosque built in its place? If Ayodhya was sacred to the Hindus, he should have included it among the places of pilgrimage. Tulsidas suggests Prayag as one of the principal places of pilgrimage and not Ayodhya. In other words, even in the latter half of the 16th century Ayodhya was not considered as one of the holy places. A’in-i-Akbari, AD 1598
THE EARLIEST mention of Ayodhya as a place of pilgrimage is in the A’in-i-Akbari by Abul Fazl who completed it in AD 1598. Abul Fazl includes Ayodhya among the important places of pilgrimage in India. In the chapter on Ayodhya, he gives a detailed account of an extensive area called Ayodhya where Ramnavmi festival is celebrated and which is esteemed to be one of the holiest places of antiquity. He even mentions small details such as two Jewish priests lying buried in Ayodhya. Yet there is not the remotest reference to Ram’s birthsite, let alone to any mosque built on it. William Flinch, AD 1608
THE BRITISH historian William Flinch, who stayed in India during AD 1608-11 gives a detailed description of Ayodhya and the castle of Ramchand (Ramkot), “extensive enough to undertake a search for gold.” Though he does not mention the birthplace of Rama, he gives a detailed account of the place where the ashes of Ram are kept. “Some two miles on the further side of the river in a cave of his with a narrow entrance, but so spacious and full of turnings within that a man may well lose himself there if he taketh not better heed; where it is thought his ashes were buried. Hither resort many from all parts of India, which carry from thence in remembrance certain grains of rice as black as gunpowder which they say have been preserved ever since.” Had the place been considered sacred for being the birthplace of the Lord Rama, it should have become one of the places of pilgrimage. Instead the place where his ashes are kept was considered a place of veneration. Sujan Rai Bhandari, AD 1695
THE KHULASTU-I TAWARIKH, the first geographical account of holy places in India, written by Sujan Rai Bhandari in 1695-96, specifically mentions that the “Mathura temple of Keshav have been destroyed by Aurangzeb who had a Masjid built in its place.” But while describing Ayodhya, he says that, “in Hindu books it is called Ayodhya, the birthplace of Ramchand... As this city was the residence of Ramchand, it is held to be one of the holiest places... In the town there are tombs of Shish (Seth), the son of Lord Adam (peace of God be on him!) and Ayub (Job) the prophet – both places of pilgrimage to the Muhammadans.” Ram Chaturman, AD 1759
ANOTHER WRITER Ram Chaturman, who wrote his Chahar Gulshan in AD 1759-60 describes Ayodhya as “one of the select places of worship, the birthplace of Raja Ramchandar, son of Jasrat (Dasharat) who was one of the ten avatars.” The entire place was considered to be the ruins of Ramachand’s fortress, which included the palace and several other buildings and structures.
Thus, until 220 years after the construction of the Babri Masjid, there was no suggestion anywhere in recorded history that there was a precise site of Ram’s birth, where the holy structure had been destroyed and a Masjid built upon it.
[Courtesy, Nation and the World, New Delhi, Nov. 16, 1992] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.58.169 ( talk) 21:35, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}} Please add information regarding verdict of Babri Mosque demolition which is coming out on 30 September 2010. Please add whole story of how it got delayed due to supreme court rulings and then how supreme court of India lifted the ban on verdict which is to be given by Allahabad High Court in 30 September 2010.
Mayank6002 ( talk) 04:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
The latest edits on the opening paragraph are not appropriate. The anonymous editor hasn’t made any effort to address concerns, so I'm going to make it clear as to why the edits don’t work.
Firstly, there is excessive detail that makes the opening paragraph lose the pointed style opening paragraphs need. This information needs to be in the appropriate areas further down, if at all.
Second, it adds a lot of off-topic information. This is not the Ayodhya Debate page, it is the Babri Mosque page. Therefore the opening paragraph, and most of the other paragraphs must be about the mosque itself, not what was there before the mosque.
Third, the referencing is poor. There is nothing indicating academic backup of the claims for the prevailing temple, no references for the later court orders or Muslim unrest. A request for referencing about the claimed religious demographics of Ayodhya resulted in a useless link to the Indian Census page which gives no information at all. The claim that there have been no Muslim prayers at the site since 1947 would definitely require a reference.
Fourth, the history information is hopelessly out of order. It moves from ancient times to 1992 to construction in 1527 to 1984 to independence in 1947 then 1989 then back to 1528. Is the editor deliberately trying to cause confusion?
Fifth, the edits reproduce information from other sections. The history information is better expressed, and more evenly expressed in the History section.
Also, the translation of ‘Mosque i Janmasthan’ is ‘Mosque of the Birthplace’, NOT birthplace of Lord Rama, otherwise Krishna Janmasthan would translate as Krishna Birthplace of Lord Rama
I understand the editor may be a passionate supporter of whatever is their cause, and that they have added what they believe to be true. However, the edit does not belong in the opening paragraph and most of it is either repetition or it doesn’t belong in this article. They do their point of view in the debate no favours by constantly adding these edits back in. I am happy to discuss these concerns with the anonymous editor, with a view to finding out what the aim of edits are, but the constant re-insertion of poor material without discussion can’t continue. Mdw0 ( talk) 06:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The "Architecture ..." section does not have a single in-line citation. Burden of proof is on the author. Nshuks7 ( talk) 12:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
From the first paragraph...
The Babri Mosque (Hindi: बाबरी मस्जिद, Urdu: بابری مسجد, translation: Mosque of Babur), was a mosque in Ayodhya, a city in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh, on Ramkot Hill ("Rama's fort"). It was destroyed in 1992 when a political rally developed into a riot involving 150,000 people,[1] despite a commitment to the Indian Supreme Court by the rally organisers that the mosque would not be harmed.[2][3] [2] organized by the Bharatiya Janata Party and allied organizations.[3] More than 2,000 Muslims were killed in ensuing riots in many major Indian cities including Mumbai and Delhi.[4]
...a part of the sentence is missing before the second footnote from the newindpress.com reference. According from the history it may have been a some sort of collateral damage or was part of a sentence that is supposed to be deleted. Can please someone have it checked? Thanks. E Wing ( talk) 07:46, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
As explained on your discussion page. Please revert the changes. .असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर | असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. 21:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Thisthat, if you want your edits to stand they need to be changed, both in tone and in balance. Your tone is too partisan. Such a tone makes factual items seem NPOV, even when they're not. You need to adjust your tone so that it doesnt try to make one group of people seem like they're all innocent downtrodden angels and the other like they're all terrorist devils. Also, your information is not balanced. You present only one side of a debate and not the other. Even if they were properly referenced, such edits create a politically unbalanced article, and in a controversial article such as this, that imbalance is more than enough reason to remove the edits. This is not a place for winning political arguments, it is somewhere to provide information on the mosque and what happened to it. Any writing on the aftermath should be minimal and cannot be politically partisan. Also, your attitude to referencing is poor. You cannot assume links in a totally different article is sufficient - its not, and never has been. You, yourself, need to provide good and relevant sources for your edits. If you are too lazy to back up your edits properly, you can expect them to be deleted. Mdw0 ( talk) 05:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
The hindu account section have some piece of information which are irrelevant and does not clearly give out the Hindu's stand in the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adnan.jsr ( talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I propose that the page Ram Janmabhoomi be merged into this one. Although the two concepts are theoretically different, the material in "Ram Janmabhoomi" is currently a subset of the material here, and there is no unique material that I know of that would be inappropriate to this page. I would suggest that a section be created in this article to cover the "Ram Janmabhoomi" concept in slightly greater detail than it currently is, and any unique material in the "Ram Janmabhoomi" article could be covered therein. Vanamonde93 ( talk) 17:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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The last major edit was, overall, an improvement. It has removed a lot of poorly presented sections. However, the demolition needs to have more prominence in the opening paragraph. It is a fact that the destruction of the Babri Masjid gave it much more importance than it ever had while standing, and will be the main reason new readers come to this article. Also, the edit is too partisan. As well as the removal of the section in the opening paragraph which accurately and fairly portrays the drama of the building's destruction, any denial of a previous structure by Muslim groups and their supporters has been deleted, as though there wasn't any denial. There can't be an Ayodhya dispute if there's only one side arguing - both sides must be fairly represented. I suggest a re-entry of the statement in the opening paragraph about the destruction and a sentence or two about the views of the opposing side of the Ayodha dispute. Mdw0 ( talk) 01:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
In the light of the revelations that Sushil Srivastava has made in the Allahabad High Court Allahabad High Court Verdict - P.W. 15, Sushil Srivastava, I don't think his assessments belong in this article. - Kautilya3 ( talk) 21:51, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
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@ Vanamonde93: you just reverted my edit [ [20]], although I merely copied the other references cited in the article already. You can probably form a better sentence using those sources instead of removing them!- IvankaTr ( talk) 11:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC) IvankaTr ( talk) 11:12, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
The phrase "including official documents such as revenue records" is from Utcursch [22]. The source was apparently Koenraad Elst, which has since mysteriously disappeared.
I can't verify the "revenue records" claim, except to say that the entire area was called "Janmasthan" in settlement records. This was so in 1861, 1893, 1931 and 1989. Apparently it was carried over from the earlier records in Nawwabi times. The revenue records don't show a masjid there, but note the area as "populated". In all the documents, Mahants are shown as subsidiary owners. In 1861 and possibly 1893, the Janmasthan was "Nazul land" (government land), but in 1931 it is shown to belong to Waqf, but the Mahants still as subsidary owners. [1]
In a 1858 legal suit filed by the Muazzin of the mosque, the mosque is described as "Masjid-i Janmasthan", the courtyard as "maqam janmasthan ka" and the suit was filed against bairagiyan-i janmasthan". [2] This makes sense. If the entire area is Janmasthan, a masjid inside it would be obviously "Masjid-i Janmasthan". Syed Sahabudin apparently agreed with this interpretation, but contested that this had anything to do with an earlier temple there. [3]
I suggest we keep "official documents" and drop "revenue records". -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:40, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
References
There is mention of Hindu "activists" who demolished mosque - why are they called activists and not militants or terrorists? 62.216.205.33 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
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The Supreme Court has ruled that the mosque should be rebuilt at an alternative site awarded to the Sunni Waqf Board and the temple rebuilt in the same place but why it gave such a ruling is not clear right now. I therefore request you to change the sentence in the lead which reads, "In 2003, a report by the Archaeological Survey of India suggested that there appears to have existed an old structure at the site." to, "In 2003, a report by the Archaeological Survey of India suggested that there appears to have existed an old structure at the site which was a Hindu temple over which the Babri Masjid was built." Thanks (you can cite more references if you please)!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:5215:bd8d::1f4:c0a1 ( talk) 13:59, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Vanamonde93, please revert this edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.99.40.61 ( talk) 08:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I have removed from the infobox, this image with the caption "The Babri Mosque, upper left, in the 18th century. From William Hodges' Select Views in India in the Years 1780–1783. [1]"
It is true that the British Library claims it but the image is nothing like what we know the Babri Masjid to be, e.g., Indian Express, 4 June 2020.
Kishore Kunal discusses this painting in his book and states that the British Library is entirely mistaken. It is a painting of the "Svargadwari mosque" built by Aurangzeb near the Svargadwar ghat. [2] -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 09:40, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
References
I was just going through some articles and found that the mosque was probably named after a boy named Babri, whom Babur loved. Mentioned here here which takes the reference from the book Babur nama from Dilip Hiro. Should we look into it as a potential reason to name the Mosque. OpenMindedBloke ( talk) 18:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
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The article has the following words: "which the government allotted in Dhannipur." We need a citation that supports it. The following source possibly supports it, but it is not very clear. Part of it says words that can be translated as: "Land will be given in Dhanipur for the mosque. It is about 25 km from Ramjanmabhoomi located in Ayodhya. The five acres of land has been allotted to Sunni Central Waqf Board for building a mosque following the Supreme Court verdict."
If we were to use the Aaj Tak article as a citation, the article would need to mention (a) when the Supreme Court deadline was and (b) what is meant by "Ramjanmabhoomi". That way the reader could be assured that the cited source was talking about the Babri Masjid case (if it is).-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)