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Archive 1 |
Removed "Green line" regarding metro route to the site. The line's official name is "Syrets'ko-Pechers'ka", while a color on the maps is up to designers of those. AlexPU 09:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Removed "The Soviet government used this site for the Stalinist purges of Kievites by NKVD in late 1930s.". Babi Yar was never used by NKVD. It used the village Bykovnya for that. Vervin 10:57, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In the "Before the Massacre" section there were single square brackets around every instance of the word "Jew". I removed them, since they didn't seem to belong there. If I've inadvertantly committed a great offense, accept my apologies. Plantagenet Palliser 21:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I guess every each soldier of einzatzgruppen was the murderer, and none of them is free of guilt. And all the above chain of command are also murderers. Thus, I see no reason to state that one person is to blame. Going to delete the passage if nobody opposes AlexPU
http"https://judicial-inc.biz/Babi_Yar.htm gives all the original sources for Babi Yar - except for the Ein.. Report.
Supposedly the leader was Paul Blobel. He has a wiki article - not a real leader looking/resume kind of guy , but he was the one hung for it.
How can you trust that Gilbert, after all, he, as a Jew would support your side of the story, and so would the so- called witness. Killing, means shooting a person, not lining a group of people up. Show me one REAL document that provesthat Ukrainian policemen participated. I'm not Ukrainian, so don't say I'm standing up for my side, but I see that all this about Ukrainians killing is bull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC) There were also thousands of victims shot at Babi Yar, all Ukrainians, by Stalin, before the outbreak of the Soviet- Nazi war. I hope their bodies don't get mistaken, or don't get counted as some Jewish victims Adolf23653 14:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)adolf23653
If someone have idea to put photo of one of memorials, you can get it here (photos taken by me). -- Yonkie 23:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I recall reading about the "Ukrainians collaborators" in a reliable source and will not question the validity of this fact. However, i.m.h.o. the following sentence is not a good statement as it requires further information:
Where, when and by whom it was "documented and proven"? Without proper references such an statement sounds more emotional than factual.
Any source for the 700 psychiatric patients? Beware of einsatzgruppen reports. I remember one that was signed by an officer who had been dead for about 6 months - I would guess that particular report was a forgery.
My understanding was that the Ukranians were a constant source of problems for the USSR. I have heard that many fought for the Germans during WW2 and for the White army before WW2 ( they have never been on friendly terms even today). Is there some overlap between Babi-Yar and these other conflicts - confusion as to counts etc over time.
Oh I love this quote "Concerning Babi Yar, Elie Wiesel stated "Eye witnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to spurt geysers of blood." Yeah ok. That about sums up how realistic not to mention reliable the so called eye witness reports are regarding Babi Yar. The picture in the article does not show any corpses being burried or exhumed, only people who cannot be indentified, although it certainly appears they are not wearing German uniforms or overcoats. Its also interesting that hunderds of thousands of blood gushing corpses werent dug up or washed away by the subsequent mud slides and urban development. -- Nazrac 05:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes you think I'm denying anything, I merely have difficulty with the above claim, can bodies physically gush blood out of the ground days after being shot? I don't suppose thats an experiment that can be reproduced, however it raises some questions about what exactly is being added/invented in such testimony. I seems expressing doubt about one detail means I deny the entire Holocaust according to you? Is there a complete list of exactly what is covered under the Holocaust or is it simply a blanket term that can be invoked, added or subtracted from whenever those who promote it decide it is convenient to do so? I certainly don't deny mass shootings at Babi Yar, a sad tragedy indeed. More sad still are people like you who cheapen such tragedies by using it as a vessel of criticism and propaganda. In my above post I merely critisize the photograph and the above eyewitness testimony, which I consider suspect. Does that mean such a massacre absolutely did not occur? certain not. As far as Eichmann is concerned, imagine Iran kidnapping former Israeli intelligence officers and putting them on trial for crimes against Islam or something similar. That would be on about the same level of legitimacy as the Eichmann trial. If Eichmann felt he really had something terrible to hide you would think he would have had the sense to change his and his families last name in order to elude capture by his persuers. I suppose it would be fair to conclude he never saw it coming, dont you think?
Perhaps I should take this moment in time to explain my family members also fought against the 3rd Reich, saw incredible suffering and many terrible things. They also had the wisdom to recognize the futility of war, and that no person or group of people can (morally) benefit at the expense of others. Those who deliberately start war and conflict and sow discord among people will ultimately be held accountable for their actions, I suppose if Eichmann was guilty of such things he had it coming. Therefore any others on the world stage guilty of the same actions also can legitimately expect to be kidnapped and hanged by their adversaries? -- Nazrac 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You must be terribly paranoid. You keep making inferences everywhere about hidden anti-semitism lurking around every corner, hidden in every criticism or comment. I guess Eichmann being responsible for the deaths and suffering of countless people is different than Israeli aggression against its neighbours because its only a crime if Jews re the victims? Further, it seems the Holocaust is like a get out of jail free card that is immediately invoked the moment criticism is made. You would think lessons would be learned from the Holocaust, apparently not. Being the victim of one does not give a people the right to act like the same aggressors who victimized them in the first place. Such incredible arrogance and hypocracy can only cultivate anti-semitism rather than discourage it. There are a great many Jewish people who also echo those exact same sentiments, and I admire them greatly for having the courage to say it knowing they will face harassment and persecution from their own people. Keep finding hidden anti-semitic conspiracies and motives everywhere, eventually you may realize you are the one who keeps fanning the flames and keeping it well stoked. -- Nazrac 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The entire Babi Yar story I thought had been consigned to the dust bin of history. Wat-time aerial photos - and post-war photos - and on-site surveys - and ground radar - etc came up with zilch. Isn't there any myth that can be abandoned - folks stick with a few good ones, not ones you have already lost. Embarrassment should eventually lead to accuracy, at least in this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 ( talk • contribs) .
"anything but fact" - Can we assume that the US aerial photos were found to be forgeries?
From the above, a person might conclude that you would rather publish propaganda than "facts". Dispute "facts" - ie aerial photos, etc - if you want to but ranting about "personal attacks"etc makes you look like a personal who engages in "personal attacks"etc.
-- Sean 06:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Revisionism has its own article in Wikipedia. So does Holocaust Denier. Kindly keep comments about "reasonable doubt," "alleged incident" and "myths" confined to those pages. Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report 101 claims 33,771 Jews killed September 29 and 30. I'll take the words of the group responsible, thank you very much.
Are you advocating paralell truths. Is this a code word or a supercode word. Who writes the denier article - it appears not to be deniers?
Sorry to contradict you but the Holocaust Denial article has been totally taken over by proholocaust writers, if you didn't know.
159.105.80.141 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC) It's almost funny to read the discussion page, had forgotten it for some time. They work on it almost everyday, they are totally convinced by their own argument, of course they don't want to hear any denial stuff.
159.105.80.141
19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This section starts with the sweeping statement: 'The Soviet Union was anti-semitic'. Could someone outline (and source) what form this took and what the justification for not creating a memorial was? Ashmoo 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Current version (29 Sept 2006, 7:35 AM Eastern Time) has "hilarious" in first paragraph that is probably vandalism or remnant of past vandalism.
Soviet Union was anti-Semitic? You have got to be kidding. A very large number of the Communist leaders were Jewish I believe. In later years other ethnic groups became more equally represented. but I don't think anti-Semetic could ever be applied to Communist Russia - currently that is not so but then Russia is now capitalist, with a small favoring of mobster thrown in.
I do not believe that "hilarious" is the correct or intended adjective in the introductory sentence. Perhaps horrific or horrendous would be more appropriate?
Mark Woermke
The article includes the name of one victim. I'm thinking that that is sort of PoVish, and should be removed. (the text mentions Jews, of course, Roma, Soviet prisoners, and mental patients. Should it mention Ukrainians or Ukrainian activists as well?) Jd2718 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more respectful to the dead at least to mention that they were Ukrainians and Russians, not "some other civilians". -- Hillock65 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I do agree the article needs improvement. In my view in its present form it is one sided and does not correspond to NPOV. While this tragedy is undoubtedly is one of the worst in Jewish history it should not exclude other nationalities and should not present unjustified and unsubstantiated accusations. In my opinion there is an obvious attempt to smear Ukrainians as a whole along with the perpetrators of this tragedy. What I have in mind is the following:
I think putting kikes or zhids in the article is over the top. Besides, the question which word is derogatory is very subjective. As far as the word "жид" goes it depends on where it is uttered. It is a literary norm for "Jew" in Poland, Lithuania and a few other countries. In Ukraine in different regions the use of it was different too. Shevchenko always used it, the old version of the Bible almost exclusively uses this word too, because there were no other in the Ukrainian language. Some people didn't think it derogatory as for example did volunteers of the Ukrainian Galician Army who formed the Жидівський курінь(Zhydivs’kyy Kurin’ UHA) in the Ukrainian Galician Army. Now it is derogatory because it is derogatory in Russian, but it was not always the case in Ukraine as it is also not derogatory in Poland. Was it meant to afflict additional pain to the victims? It is hard to say now, but being so particular about that word I think is petty. Is it adding insult to injury? I think the injury was big enough to go into pieces over linguistic peculiarities.-- Hillock65 04:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is another translation into English of the same passage - (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html Babi Yar). The Ukrainian_English Dictionary compiled by C H. Andrusyshen and J. Krett Published by the University of Saskatoon and the University of Toronto Press Original printing 1955 have for the word Zhyd - m Jew, Hebrew with a list of 32 words that use this ethnonym as its root. No mention of the word kike in any of the translations. Bandurist 05:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, your own evidence proves you wrong. Let me know if you need translation:
Уряд Української Народної Республіки 1917–1921 років офіційно вживав слово “єврей”. Після 1918 року це слово реєструється у всіх словниках на східноукраїнських землях. Зустрічається воно і в галицьких виданнях, наприклад, “Словничок української мови і головні правописні правила та замітки до відміни Костя Кисілевського” (Станислав, 1927) має “єврей” із відмінковими формами, а також “єврейський”, “євреїзм” (с. 95), “Український правопис із словничком”, що його впорядкував Михайло Возняк (Львів, НТШ, 1929), реєструє “єврей” і “єврейський” (с. 114). Мають ті слова “Українська загальна енциклопедія” (Львів, 1931, т. І, с. 1259) та “Українсько-німецький словник” (Ляйпціг, 1943) Зенона Кузелі, Ярослава Рудницького й Карла Маєра. У цьому ж таки словнику є й похідні слова, а саме “єврейка” і “єврейство” (с. 213).
Парадоксально, але за такою ж точнісінько схемою аргументації, як ми бачили, українофоби заперечували можливість визнання етноніму “українець”. Російські, польські, угорські шовіністи здіймали лемент, що, мовляв, етнонім “українець” антиісторичний, бо в давніх історичних пам’ятках його немає (наводились приклади). По‑друге, це чужинецький мовний неологізм, якого не сприймають їхні мови. У Росії етнонім “українець” вважали польською інтригою, в Польщі — австрійською, а в Угорщині та Румунії — галицькою. Одностайно заперечувалось проте його таки українське походження, так само, як не визнається, що термін “єврей” аж ніяк не російського, а таки єврейського походження. “Хто як хто, але українці, — які з таким трудом змагалися і ще досі змагаються, щоб їх означували назвою “українець” (а не “русин”) — хіба найкраще повинні б розуміти, що про свою назву має право вирішувати народ, до якого ця назва належить; і що ми бачимо культурність та доброзичливість з боку тих народів, які називають нас так, як ми хочемо, щоб нас називали. Це повинен мати на увазі кожен у справі національної назви Єврейського народу.
Please remember that we are talking here about a Nazi announcement in Kiev (not Lviv) in 1941 and please remember its immediate result. As for your insinuation that someone "attempts to make Ukrainians into anti-semites", please review WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. At this point let's assume you know our policies, in the future expect to be held responsible for your words. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Both point to the same website, AFAIK. Please explain the edits. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Counterfeit ARC website online! Beware!
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WHOIS information for: deathcamps.org:[whois.publicinterestregistry.net] NOTICE: Access to .ORG WHOIS information is provided to assist persons in determining the contents of a domain name registration record in the Public Interest Registry registry database. The data in this record is provided by Public Interest Registry for informational purposes only, and Public Interest Registry does not guarantee its accuracy. This service is intended only for query-based access. You agree that you will use this data only for lawful purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this data to: (a) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission by e-mail, telephone, or facsimile of mass unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations to entities other than the data recipient's own existing customers; or (b) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that send queries or data to the systems of Registry Operator or any ICANN-Accredited Registrar, except as reasonably necessary to register domain names or modify existing registrations. All rights reserved. Public Interest Registry reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting this query, you agree to abide by this policy. Domain ID:D90771355-LROR Domain Name:DEATHCAMPS.ORG Created On:30-Sep-2002 19:44:33 UTC Last Updated On:05-Jan-2007 07:51:51 UTC Expiration Date:30-Sep-2007 19:44:33 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Schlund+Partner AG (R73-LROR) Status:OK Registrant ID:SPAG-31769436 Registrant Name:Chris Webb Registrant Street1:22 Wellwynds Road Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Cranleigh Registrant State/Province: Registrant Postal Code:GU6 8BP Registrant Country:GB Registrant Phone:+44.1483272054 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX: Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:chrisrwebb1954@yahoo.co.uk Admin ID:SPAG-31769436 Admin Name:Chris Webb Admin Street1:22 Wellwynds Road Admin Street2: Admin Street3: Admin City:Cranleigh Admin State/Province: Admin Postal Code:GU6 8BP Admin Country:GB Admin Phone:+44.1483272054 Admin Phone Ext.: Admin FAX: Admin FAX Ext.: Admin Email:chrisrwebb1954@yahoo.co.uk Tech ID:SPAG-35545918 Tech Name:Carmelo Lisciotto Tech Organization:Action Reinhard Camps Foundation International Tech Street1:N/A Tech Street2: Tech Street3: Tech City:Boston Tech State/Province:MA Tech Postal Code:10012 Tech Country:US Tech Phone:+1.1111111 Tech Phone Ext.: Tech FAX: Tech FAX Ext.: Tech Email:info@deathcamps.org Name Server:NS19.1AND1.CO.UK Name Server:NS20.1AND1.CO.UK
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Hello. Some idiot erase some paragraphs and wrote this at the middle of the page: = World War II
I have been digging up anything and everything regarding Babyn Yar in Ukrainian sources for the past couple of weeks. Here is some of the material I have found which I think maybe worthy of discussion. I don't know if this could be included in the article. Rather than spoil it, here is what I have put togther
Babyn Yar is considered by some to be the greatest Jewish tragedy of WWII.
At the time in 1941 it was reported that the Nazis had herded thousands of Jews to an unused part of an Orthodox Cemetery in occupied Kiev. They commanded those who did not hand over their precious possessions to strip. All gold was removed from their clothes and that these Jews were deported from Kiev.
The truth however, was somewhat different.
Soviet scholars avoided mentioning Babyn Yar because it was also the place where in the late 1930’s hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens were buried – victims of the Ukrainian Famine and NKVD executions..
In recent times however, interest has been once again turned to Babyn Yar and primarily the events that took place there during WWII.
Immediately after WWII Soviet Colonel and investigator O. Smirnov pointed out the matter of Babyn Yar at the Nuremberg trials. At that time it seems that the information was poorly presented and as a result was summarily dismissed by judges Murray Bernice and David Marcus who looked upon the Babyn Yar tragedy as one of secondary importance. As a result the tragedy was also not picked up at all by the Western Press.
During the Nuremberg Trials the tragedies of Lviv, Crimea and Odessa took precedence. At that time Babyn Yar only had approximately 100 thousand victims, whereas Lviv was reported to have had 600 thousand (according to the report of the Special State Commission of December 23, 1944), Crimea 200 thousand victims who were drowned, and Odessa 200 thousand were reported to have been burned alive. In Kharkiv, it was reported that 195 thousand Jews were killed, and the town of [[Slavuta lost 150 thousand “Soviet citizens”. (These numbers are taken from the 48 volume collection of materials regarding the Nuremberg Trials for 14 November, 1945 and 1 October, 1946 which were published in 1947. Currently these statistics are rarely mentioned as they have been shown to have been over-inflated.)
With the formation of the State of Israel the Soviet Union intensified its anti-Israeli policies. For 15 years no mention was made about any Jewish tragedy in Babyn Yar or in any other centre. In 1960 however, the babyn Yar matter surfaced once again.
Joseph Schechtman, a delegate from Odessa to the Ukrainian National Council in 1919 and later the Secretary for Jewish Nationalities under the Petlura government in Kiev in 1921 had emigrated to the United States where during WWII he worked with the OSS and later the CIA. In 1960 Schechtman visited Ukraine and upon returning to the United States published in 1961 his book «Star in Eclipse» which gives an account of the Babyn Yar tragedy.
Schlechtman’s book however, did not at the time do much raise awareness of the Babyn Yar tragedy. In 1966 during a period of anti-German and anti-Ukrainian campaigns in Ukraine, the Babyn Yar tragedy was once again brought to the forefront. In 1968 criminal proceedings were launched in Darmschtadt where 11 executions were ordered. At this time the New York Times published an article which awakened the American Jewish diaspora to the happenings at Babyn Yar.
In 1987 in a cinema documentary film by Vitaly Korotych, the editor of the influential Ogonek magazine, also brought the tragedy to the forefront.
In the 1990’s the Babyn Yar massacre began to be associated with the largest single massacre in the history of humanity. -- Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The Head of the Jewish Council of Ukraine Illiya Levitas states that Babyn Yar is “a mystery wrapped in an enigma”. In an article “Undecyphered secrets of Babyn Yar “ published in the weekly newspaper “Yevreyski vesti” in 1993 he wrote about the killing of Jews in Babyn Yar, however he also stated that there were some 15 conflicting items in the history which have not been adequately explained and which troubled him. He stated that “the number of Jewish victims is constantly rising, despite the fact that the special commission for the study of criminal acts done by the Fascists on occupied territory, which began to work immediately after Kiev was liberated from the Nazi’s, gives a precise number of 33 771 people. How this number came into the hands of the Special Commission is also unexplained. The exact same number was in both Soviet and German documents and this is what he called a “mystery wrapped in an enigma”.
There is a suggestion that the secret report of the Einsatzgruppen where this number appears could possibly be a forgery created by the Soviets. This however has not been proved either way. http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101. htmlhttp://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html
There are also numerous discrepancies from eye-witnesses regarding such mundane things as the weather during this time period, which also attested to some distortion of information. -- Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the note about Zhyd being a slur in Ukrainian, except for those areas under Polish control (1920-39). user:Humus Sapiens reverted me. We exchanged these notes, which may be of general interest: Jd2718 22:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
HS, thank you for improving this article. I am a bit puzzled by the Kuznetsov citation. What is it telling us? And why is it significant? Not really related, but that last bit on vandalism (introduced, if you'll forgive me, in a way that annoyed one group of editors) and the notation about the official Ukrainian government response (really, a response by the offended editors to the reference to vandalism), is that piece of information and the official response notable in the context of this article? Jd2718 23:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the local streets was renamed for a Ukrainian poetess who killed in the ravine. I don't know when the renaming happened. I wonder if it was an attempt to (there is no way not to put this badly, I do apologize) claim a share of the victimization? Personally it bothers me (why should 37,000 Jews be anonymous while one non-Jew is honored) but the article is not supposed to be about personal feelings. Should the connection between the streetname and the site be mentioned? How? Jd2718 00:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC) Okay, first of all, 2/3 of people executed at Babin Yar were non Jews- mostly Ukrainians, some Russians. So do you really think that their names should be kept silent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a monument specifically dedicated to Olena on the Babyn Yar site. There was a sentence or two about her, and her execution, in Babyn Yar in Wiki article earlier, however it was removed a number of times.
They were however executed there on February 22, 1942 some 6 months after the reported mass Jewish extermination -- Bandurist 11:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the main focus of this article is the massacre, as it should be. Should we perhaps rename the article to Babi Yar massacre, just for accuracy's sake? K. Lásztocska 18:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I see an edit of mine was reverted and called nonsense. I removed the the phrase "of whom a significant number were Jews" from the following paragraph:
The reference [4] links to a source which says:
The first sentence in the para clearly links to the first sentence I have extracted from the source, referring to Jews. The next sentence seems to link to the second para about non-Jews. The phrase "significant number" is extracted fron the first paragraph, and refers to informers, not to victims. No indication at all is given in the source as to the proportion of the "more than 100,000 people" who were Jewish - though it was obviously more (and presumably considerably more) than 33,771 out of 100,000. That this is a significant number is not in doubt, but that the source does not say that is also clear. There is no need to have this phrase, since the information is already given - making the phrase "significant number" virtualy meaningless. I suggest that this whole sentence be rephrased to avoid the impression that a source is being misquoted, since the expression "significant number" in the source clearly does not refer to victims. Paul B ( talk) 15:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The list of Ukrainian Nationalists in the article is inappropriate. The singling out of a small, non-representative sample of victims, esp since the group would be the political allies of the current leaders in Kiev, and when most are non-notable, is irredeemably POV. The list should be deleted. Jd2718 ( talk) 01:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The tragedy at Babi Yar is not just a Jewish tragedy but one that also affected ethnic Ukrainians and other nationalities. Prominent Ukrainian cultural leaders, writers and musicians and clerics were murdered there. They deserve to be remembered and mentioned in the article. -- Bandurist ( talk) 04:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
If you know of any prominent Jewish cultural figures amongst those executed please add them. I know that Olena Teliha and her husband Mykhailo Teliha have their own separate articles on wikipedia and indeed one of the streets on which the memorial complex lies is named after Olena Teliha. With this in mind, I do not think it is fitting to remove her name only because she had Ukrainian nationalist aspirations or because many of the victims cannot be named. Bandurist ( talk) 12:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent) I don't if this is going to help or cause more problems, but there is now List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre. I would suggest organizing it by profession and then by nationality, but if nationality seems preferred, it's there. It's massively incomplete, so I hope everyone works there. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 20:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
i agree with everyone here, but i suspect the request is also, since (almost) the whole ukrainian antifascist/ antiracist movement (and a few tolerant uncollaborative clergy) of the time was also murdered there.. can we examplify that by just telling it in the other massacres at babi yar or some such chapter.
I thik one of th3 things missing from the article is a map showing the location for the site and directions how people can get there to visit the memorials. I also think more should be done to present and expose the extent of collaboration of OUN members not only at this site but also at other sites of jewish massacares in Western Ukraine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.243.157.204 ( talk) 18:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
...is not in dispute. But a user is attempting to remove it from the lead. Comments? Jd2718 ( talk) 13:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
] There is no mention of "Ukrainian police" taking part in the killings.
[ http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005518 ]
Bandurist ( talk) 13:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
On their identity: German sources as well as local witnesses confirm the presence of non-German auxiliaries; various accounts suggest that the victims were "marched down a corridor" of these police, or were undressed, "kicked and shoved" towards the execution squads by them.
It is likely that these auxiliaries - as well as the Ukrainians at the checkpoint and those who shouted about waiting trains - belonged to units created and commanded by Melnykites, namely the "Bukovinian battalion" and a company of what was then called the "Ukranian Police".
From Berkhoff, Karel Cornelis (2004). Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule. Harvard University Press. p. 68. This can be added if necessary. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 15:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
If the problem is that the current wording implies that they contributed members to the firing squads, which is not generally considered to be the case, then it can be changed. I however think that "assisted" seems reasonably accurate. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 15:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Bukovynian Battalion. According to Ukrainian historians the battalion entered Kyiv between the first days of November, being documented in Kyiv by the 23rd November. As a result they could not have taken part in the mass executions in Babiy Yar in September.
So where does the myth of the inclusion of the Bukovynian battalion and Babiy Yar come from? The first mentions come from a book by film director Alex Shlayen written in 1981 and published in 1995.
An article about the conflicting dates of the Bukovynian Battalions stay in Kyiv appeared in the Ukrainian Historian Journal by Vitaly Nakhmanovych - the secretary of the Babiy Yar Committee.
For further information a shortened web version of the article appears here. See БУКОВИНСЬКИЙ КУРІНЬ І МАСОВІ РОЗСТРІЛИ ЄВРЕЇВ У БАБИНОМУ ЯРУ - The Bukovynian Battalion and the mass shootings of Jews in Babiy Yar (in Ukrainian) Bandurist ( talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The photographs depict "police" in from what I can see Soviet army overcoats with police armbands. The origins of these "police" at the time of the atrocity IMHO points in a different direction than "blame it on the Ukrainian nationalists".
From informants I have spoken to, those who the Soviets had previously branded were "neblagonadiozhni" (unreliable) (they may have been from families of Kulaks etc.) were given the task of digging anti-tank traps around Kyiv. They had a stamp in their passports on the page dealing with their military obligations stating that were not reliable, and as a result they were not given guns. The Germans came around from a different angle. Those that had the stamp in their documents "unreliable" were not taken as POW's and were released. This could be the source of these initial police detachments - but then this is only conjecture. Bandurist ( talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
You have:
The Russian Wikipedia gives: Занимал должность коменданта полиции г. Киева с ноября 1941. The Ukrainian Wikipedia tells us: That he took on the position of commаndant of the Kiev police from November 1941, which is the time when the auxillary Police force was officially formed (from the Kiev battalion), in September there was no Ukrainian Auxillary police in Kiev. It had not yet been officially formed. Zakhvalynski arrived in Kyiv in October. How could he participate or command the Ukrainian Auxillary police for an action that took place in September? Bandurist ( talk) 17:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Please keep in mind I am not stating that Ukrainians were not involved in the rounding up of the Kyivan Jewish Community. It is just that in the rush for "credibility" people tend to assume various things which do not accurately portray the historic time-line. As a result inaccuracies "pop in". The subject matter is very delicate as it relates to relationships between ethnic communities. It is also difficult to accurately depict the period because of the distance in time. It is also difficult to accurately portray the events because of the fact that it has been a political football for the various groups. What is interesting is that as allegations are published they are addressed by scholars. Wikipedia is strong because it can provide a meeting ground for the various sides and wit the aid of the internet can be current. IMHO however it is far better to err on the more conservative side than to "push" particular POV and escalate matter-s.
I do apologise if I have offended anyone. That was not my intention. Bandurist ( talk) 20:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are so many things commented out in this article?-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 17:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed this map:
The idea of including a map to locate Kiev is a good one, but this was not the right choice:
Does the map inform? Absent context, this map does not inform this article.
Some alternatives, which might work:
Jd2718 ( talk) 15:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Someone has systematically changed each reference to the modern Ukrainian spelling, in preference to the common name in English. Further, they have changed the name in references. I will change all back to Babi Yar, except where the Ukrainian name is explicitly given. Jd2718 ( talk) 23:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
This file: File:Big-babijar14.jpg.jpeg
appears to have been altered. It does not match the source given. The uploader was user:Bandurist. The original has only the Ukrainian and German - the uploader appears to have either created the Russian or taken it from somewhere else and combined it into a single image. My question from months ago on Meta has gone unanswered. Jd2718 ( talk) 23:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I updated the description of sources at the image page. - Altenmann >t 03:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the site that you supplied (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html) I noticed that it has been updated considerably, especially with the colourful maps. It also seems that they have doctored the poster there, by cutting the original in half and retaining just the Ukrainian and German versions and remiving the main announcement in Russian. Not very nice of them. They seem to be pushing a particular POV. You will notice that I posted the image in Commons two years ago and only one change has occurred since then where someone else change the catagory from Ukrainian to Russian.
Your allegations and innuendo are outrageous, improper and disgusting. Bandurist ( talk) 03:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I see the joke, but it really is just a typo. -- Bandurist ( talk) 05:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Found some interesting info:
The Jews of Kyiv and its environs were informed via placards that they had to assemble with all their belongings at a specific place. This placard was not ready until the day before.
The 'placard' was printed in Russian, Ukrainian and German and allegedly read [translation of German text]:
"All the Jews of Kiev are to gather until 8 o'clock on Monday, September 29, 1941, at the corner of Melnik and Dokteriwski Streets (at the cemeteries). Bring your papers, money and valuables, also warm clothing etc.
"Anyone failing to comply with this order, and found elsewhere, will be shot.
"Anyone breaking into vacant Jewish homes or appropriating items from the same will be shot."
No issuing authority is given? Name and rank of the issuing commander? Date of issue?
Regarding the German text:
8 o'clock in the morning or 8 o'clock in the evening? 'Until' 8 o'clock? The original German text was printed using "oe", "ae" and "ss" instead of "ö", "ä" and "ß". Did the printer for the 6th Army not have any umlauts in his fonts? "Dokteriwski Street" is incorrect. The street was called "Djegtjariwskoi", ie. Tarburner Street. "Melnik Street" is incorrect. It is correctly called "Melnikowa Street". It is named for a Mr. Melnikow. "An den Friedhöfen" (the original German wording for "at the cemeteries") is incorrect German. Aside from that, the Russian text has only one cemetery. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust claims that the purpose of the order was "resettlement". What is the source of this insight? The placard makes no mention of this. What is meant by "found elsewhere"? When people converge on a location from everywhere else, everywhere is "elsewhere". How likely is it that a military propaganda division and an army printer would do such sloppy work?
Regarding the Russian text: The term used for Jews ("schidy") is contemptuous Russian gutter jargon. What sort of results can one expect when even the order to assemble bodes ill? Did they actually want to run the risk of having a large part of the Jews not show up at all, and go into hiding? Perhaps they even intended that in such a case they would put all armed conflict on hold, and employ their forces in locating the Jews instead...?
Here, too, the street names are incorrect. Moreover, the declension of "street" and that of "cemetery" are both wrong. The Russian text specifies 8:00 a.m. No mention is made of resettlement! In the list of things to bring, what does "etc." mean?
Regarding the Ukrainian text: Again, incorrect street names, and no hint as to the purpose of the assembly. Whoever may have been responsible for this 'order' - what were they thinking of: after the occupation of Kyiv, and with an anonymous placard, with name-calling and threats of execution, to order perhaps 100,000 or even more Jews to assemble literally over night and with potentially all their belongings, at a street corner at 8 o'clock the next morning?
Bandurist (
talk)
17:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I rewrote this to focus on the massacre itself and spun off most of the historiography and memorials into a separate article. I brought in the fairly good discussion from the main article on The Holocaust which seemed pretty good to me. One of my criticisms of of The Holocaust was that it was so long that it was impossible to check and verify facts and sources. The memorial section I felt was overlong and had enough notability to justify a separate article. Also, there was a forest of external links, that was one way to pare down on them. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 01:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The image in the infobox turned out to be most likely from the Mizoch ghetto liquidation on October 14, 1942. I replaced it with the announcement image. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Bandurist has attempted to link a "letter to the editor" as an external source. The letter, written in 1991 to a Toronto newspaper, is from a Ukrainian nationalist who denies, by arguing lack of evidence, that Ukrainian police were in any way involved in the massacre. The link itself is to a Canadian hate site.
There is nothing in this letter that would tend to make it valuable. It could not be used as a reliable source. It should not be used as a reference.
Further, I do not know why the editor linked a hate site. Jd2718 17:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
that is the "not shooting is less evil" argument we see at the trials (48) already. could here be the result of a person (werya) trying to excuse himself.technically the newly reemerged east european nationalisms lived up to many expectations. 24.132.171.225 ( talk) 03:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Zhyd in Ukrainian Means Jew The Encyclopedia of Ukraine, published by the University of Toronto Press, says that the word Jew has two Ukrainian equivalents: Zhyd and Yevrei. Zhyd is the common and correct word in Western Ukraine, as it is in Poland, while Yevrei is more common in Eastern Ukraine due to Russian influence. Some Jewish scholars such as Solomon Goldelman insist that Zhyd is the only correct word in Ukrainian for Jew. In the Ukrainian language Zhyd (Jew) and Yevrei (Hebrew) mean simply Jew and neither is pejorative. However, it should be noted that the Russian language uses Yevrei for Jew and does use Zhid as a pejorative.
When I asked Rabbi Bleich in Kiev which was the correct term in his opinion he answered that both Zhyd and Yevrei were acceptable in Ukrainian. -- Bandurist 03:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. "Zhyd" is used as an insult in east Ukraine and Russian language.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 16:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In film "Apt Pupil" made by Stephen Kings book ex-nazi character is saying that he was in B. Yar and took part in the events that were here. That was pretty brief scene but important for the film, because there Artur sad smth. like "It wasn't good, but it should be done" showing for the first time in the film that he was supporter of such politics and didn't change his mind. If this is enough of a reason please add this in article.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 16:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Raul Hilberg - this is a quote from Hilberg - could be included in the article. "The wartime aerial photos of Kiev provide incontrovertible proof that the so-called historic documentation of the Babi Yar massacre represents fabricated wartime propaganda and post-war martyr mythology. Perhaps the Nazis had, as promised, deported the missing Kievans away from Kiev. If so, their remains and burial sites should be sought elsewhere." I just tripped across it - maybe everyone did. Maybe this quote should be in Holocaust Denial and/or Hilberg,s biography also/instead. 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 11:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I just read that the Russians evacuated the Jews from this area before the Germans arrived - Russian wartime documents. Is the consensus that the Russians falsified their contemporaneous records - for what purpose. 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 19:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The article claims thousands of Ukrainians were killed at Babi Yar? How? Were they too drunk after shooting the Jews and fell into the ravine by accident breaking their necks? This article is slowly trying to show Ukrainians, not as collaborators who happily informed on their Jewish neighbors, but as some kind of victims who were also shot at Babi Yar. I can put up 10 refs showing that Ukrainians murdered Ukrainian Jews while singing and dancing and kissed Germans for helping them kill Jews.
This article is being hijacked in an attempt to rewrite history and make Ukrainians victims instead of collaborators. I already found 2 statements with references which say nothing as is claimed. Can we get some consensus, any admins out here? Cheers? I dunno. Meishern ( talk) 09:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent edit to change "execution" back to "murder", in describing what was done at Babi Yar. Murder is unlawful killing, whether by an individual or by the state. To suggest that the word execution is legitimate applies a euphemism the Nazis themselves would approve. Peterlewis ( talk) 17:08, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
"using local headstones as bricks" - Please check some of this garbage out with a mason, or anybody from a woodstove factory...... Constructing a crematorium with stones - wow this really shows wiki's lack of scientific knowledge. Where are these stones today? Did they lug them far away to a distant land where stones disappear?
159.105.80.220 (
talk) 20:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)I should be clearer - stones would make a low temp thingy - for cremation you need a little more high tech material and design. It's the difference between a cookstove ( if you want to eat the bodies) or a kiln ( if you want to reduce them to ashes ). Heat a stone with a propane torch - Tiger Torch - and see what happens ( stand far far far back). If you want a fire hot enough to cremate send the guy with the stone idea out for beer.
159.105.80.220 (
talk)
20:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be no mention of the notorious fact that during Soviet times, Jews were not allowed to be mentioned in memorials and commemorations... AnonMoos ( talk) 22:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Regarding my recent undiscussed and unhelpful edit: the section on the Massacres of 29-30 September has the following problems:
AxelBoldt ( talk) 23:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
This sentence:
seems to ignore basic rules of grammar, but when I tried to edit it, someone reverted it (along with another of my edits) with no explanation other than "2 unhelpful edits" which, I doubt he would be able to understand himself if he used that summary reverting his own edits. (Perhaps he's confused in some hurry like I sometimes am...) I might redo the edits if no comprehensible explanation arises. The reason for my 1st edit, btw, is because "retaliation", especially in war times, implies an instantaneous counter attack at the direction enemy fire comes from. If there was a crowd of civilians next to the Nazis with gunfire going somewhere from the crowd to the Nazis, "retaliation" would be a possible, although nowhere close to justifying, excuse for a massacre. Systematically massacring a population of Jewish civilians by deceiving them to gather at a murdering field doesn't seem to fit with the word "retaliation" extremely well. The reason for my 2nd edit, of course, is to fix the obvious sentence fragment: "and SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the SS and Police Leader at Rear Headquarters Army Group South." That sentence also begins with "and" with a lower case "a." 173.180.202.22 ( talk) 20:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I think 'retailiation' reads better than 'revenge', because we are describing the claim of the German officer, and should thus use terms more suitable to a public announcement. I've reverted, because three editors (counting myself) prefer 'retaliation' to one who prefers 'revenge'. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 18:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I also disagree that using 'retaliation' makes the tone more sympathetic to the Nazis
173.180.202.22 ( talk) 02:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the reason it feels so correct and obvious to see revenge as inappropriate because it "implies that victims were somehow responsible for what was done to them" is because none of us were examining how retaliation also implies so. Dictionary.com, [13], does show the requirement for a provocation by the victim during an instance of retaliation. I think another point can be made before I am convinced. 173.180.202.22 ( talk) 04:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
" In 1943, after the German surrender at Stalingrad, Grossman was with the first Red Army units to liberate the Ukraine. He learned about Babi Yar, where 100,000 people, most of them Jews, were massacred.
"With the support of the Soviet Jewish Antifascist Committee he with the equally great writer, Vasily Grossman, enlisted some twenty-four reporters to gather eyewitness accounts of the hideous torture and murder of Soviet Jews, captured Red Army soldiers, and communists."
source: Black book of Soviet Jewry, Ehrenburg & Grossman. "This present edition, the English translation of the original 1993 edition was first published in 2002." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valleyspring ( talk • contribs) 05:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
user:Lvivske has replaced Nazis with "German forces" (without explanation or edit summary), and Ukrainian collaborators with "Soviet collaborators" (without explanation or edit summary) and then with "local collaborators" (claiming "considering many more ukrainians were killed, seems a POV push to emphasize ethnic background"). Is there any reason not to call the killers Nazis? Is there any claim that the collaborators at Babi Yar were not Ukrainians? A large group of people were murdered precisely for their ethnicity; doesn't that make ethnicity here quite relevant? Jd2718 ( talk) 05:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Using the word "Nazis" would imply that every participant was a believer in NS-ideology. Would you agree to refer to all American, British etc. troops that were in Iraq as "Neocon-imperialists"? Not everyone in the Red Army was a Communist, not every soldier in the Wehrmacht a Nazi, not everyone in the US Army an Imperialistic Capitalist and so on. I think events should be described as accurately as possible without more or less concealed attempts to influence the reader. The facts presented (as accurate and honest as possible) should be enough. Readers might even start to doubt the content if such propaganda language is used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.118.119.133 ( talk) 18:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Where are the mass graves of the 33.000 to 150.000 corpses? -- 165.165.83.226 ( talk) 13:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
To the uphill side of Olena Teliha.-- 73.13.88.76 ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
"The most notorious" massacre had 34 000 victims, while "other massacres" had 150 000 victims... Is that event which causes the most loss of life not consequently the most notorious? Are all human lives really equal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.189.139.145 ( talk) 02:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Some changes were made to the main section of the article about the massacres of 29-30 September 1941:
Roches ( talk) 02:10, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
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Has any real research on the ground ever been done here. Modern forensics would be very helpful.
2601:181:8301:4510:A1A2:DFA0:42C9:E160 (
talk)
02:49, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe the first introductory paragraphs to this article need to be more objective. They center around the Jewish experience, yet it appears as if the total numbers of humans killed were two or four times the number of Jews killed. And for instance it makes lengthy comparisons between the severity of this Jewish massacre compared to other Jewish massacres, yet it ignores a comparison among, say the Romano massacres. Why such an emphasis on Jewish deaths, and how significant are the numbers of deaths when the fact is all those deaths were due to false philosophies among the Nazi leaders?
I suggest that the first paragraph give the overall picture, with the total numbers killed, with other details that do not narrow down to the deaths of any constituent group. It's certainly okay to mention all those facts with respect to the Jewish deaths later on in article, but again, I hope to see similar treatment of other groups. As the article begins now, it appears we are concerned more about Jewish deaths than we are about the deaths in other groups.
Thank you. Iwasathought ( talk) 16:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
The name of the third player mentioned is given as Putistin but it is not supported by the citation which names him as Kuzmenko. Putistin according to the wiki article on the Death Match escaped from the camp in 1943 and was living as late as 1966 when (apparently not wishing to endorse Soviet propaganda) he declined to receive Soviet honours for his part in the Match. Cloptonson ( talk) 10:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello folks, just asked the two items present on WD to be merged, as there is one only event. Best, et Hop ! Kikuyu3 ( talk) 16:27, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
In the historical background section, why is there no mention of, outside of the Holocaust, the largest mass slaughter of Jews in history in the pogroms in Ukraine at the turn of the century that lasted periodically through the First World War? If not the pogroms of the early 1900s then I would think the massacres by Petliuris forces after WWI (50,000-100,000 Jewish victims) would be appropriate to discuss when talking about historical context, especially considering Ukranian police and local participation in Babyn Yar and the long standing history of anti semitism in Ukraine at the time of the massacre... 2600:1009:B01C:6320:B19B:B131:3DD0:5EFF ( talk) 21:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't claim particular subject knowledge, but I do note that this article changed dramatically shortly after the Russian invasion of Ukraine in Feb 2022. The article now includes Ukrainian collaborators (not soviet). It may be correct, but it seems like while Putin was claiming that modern Ukraine is filled with neo-nazis, suddenly this article adds blame to the Ukrainian people. I won't edit the article - but would be interested in other's views. 108.30.115.193 ( talk) 08:26, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
The article is about Ukrainian city, place in Ukraine and about Ukrainian victims in the list of all victims from there. Why does the name of the article is transcription from russian language? I mean in ukrainian we call it only "Бабин Яр" (Babyn Yar) and even for some Ukrainians who talk in russian that is Banyn Yar, not Babi Yar. Can y'all please change it? Ask for that as ukrainian. Thank you. Artekimus ( talk) 09:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The lead says: Victims of massacres at the site
included members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
. The source used
[15] says: "Several dozen OUN members fell victim to the Germans in Kyiv. These were mostly Melnykites, who up until then had coexisted and cooperated with the occupiers." In page 216 it says: "The shootings were carried out in an anti-tank ditch, as well as in pits that were dug in the open area in the Babyn Yar district (but not in the ravine itself)". Also the same source says: "Although successors to the OUN(M) in modern Ukraine and in the Ukrainian diaspora state that the Germans killed as many as 621 activists of the movement in Kyiv between 1941 and 1943, careful calculations show this number to be incorrect. A shorter list, of 62 names, mentioned
on a memorial cross placed in 1992, also requires verification, as at least some of these OUN
members were not victims of Nazism." Also the section in the source is called "Ukrainian Nationalists as Victims of Nazi Germany", not "Ukrainian Nationalists as Victims of Babyn Yar". Meanwhile in the body it says: Among those murdered were 621 members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).
While it links to
this source. It also raises the question of
WP:DUE weight.
Mellk (
talk)
19:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
I really think this article should go back to using the previous image. Right now, it's a colorized version of a photo taken by the SS. It's credited to Johannes Haehle and listed as being created on 1 October 1941, but the coloring is ex post facto. I know that colorization can bring the past to life and make it more "interesting" to modern audiences, but its accuracy and authenticity is always questionable. Since the original image was black-and-white, we should use that image. Are we going to colorize every other image of the Holocaust, too? ` Sacxpert ( talk) 05:32, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Kiew_Babyn_Yar_7_Bild_008-005
in the collection
K.e.coffman linked in this thread also isn't an exact representation of the massacre itself, but appears to be in the more immediate aftermath of the massacre (i. e. before the Nazis undermined the wall of the ravine).
File:Massacre de Babi Yar.jpg is a more clear depiction of actual shootings at Babyn Yar, but it was apparently taken in 1942, after the initial 1941 massacre. I'm not sure which photograph we should use, but I'd be most in favor of using Kiew_Babyn_Yar_7_Bild_008-005
.
CJ-Moki (
talk)
06:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)![]() | This
edit request to
Babi Yar has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Macarter85 ( talk) 14:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
References
Spector
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I added this part in the article [16] but I think a new section is needed. Maybe "Legacy" or "Controversies"? Mhorg ( talk) 16:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) - 🔥 𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 00:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
Babi Yar → Babyn Yar – Babyn Yar is located in Ukraine, a country which in recent years and for obvious reasons has consistently sought to prioritize the use of Ukrainian for place names, rather than Russian. I note that Babyn Yar is located near Kyiv, and that Kyiv is the primary name for that page, not Kiev, which is a redirect. I therefore respectfully ask that this page be renamed to Babyn Yar, and Babi Yar be turned into a redirect. TallNapoleon ( talk) 23:56, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:Why do we have to acquiesce to the revisionism of Ukrainian nationalists - especially on articles such as this?!
Could we get a disambig or a hat note or w/e to distinguish these pls?!
I ended up here searching "Stanley Cup"!! 2601:19C:527F:7890:51D9:AAB7:D59A:68CC ( talk) 22:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Removed "Green line" regarding metro route to the site. The line's official name is "Syrets'ko-Pechers'ka", while a color on the maps is up to designers of those. AlexPU 09:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Removed "The Soviet government used this site for the Stalinist purges of Kievites by NKVD in late 1930s.". Babi Yar was never used by NKVD. It used the village Bykovnya for that. Vervin 10:57, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In the "Before the Massacre" section there were single square brackets around every instance of the word "Jew". I removed them, since they didn't seem to belong there. If I've inadvertantly committed a great offense, accept my apologies. Plantagenet Palliser 21:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I guess every each soldier of einzatzgruppen was the murderer, and none of them is free of guilt. And all the above chain of command are also murderers. Thus, I see no reason to state that one person is to blame. Going to delete the passage if nobody opposes AlexPU
http"https://judicial-inc.biz/Babi_Yar.htm gives all the original sources for Babi Yar - except for the Ein.. Report.
Supposedly the leader was Paul Blobel. He has a wiki article - not a real leader looking/resume kind of guy , but he was the one hung for it.
How can you trust that Gilbert, after all, he, as a Jew would support your side of the story, and so would the so- called witness. Killing, means shooting a person, not lining a group of people up. Show me one REAL document that provesthat Ukrainian policemen participated. I'm not Ukrainian, so don't say I'm standing up for my side, but I see that all this about Ukrainians killing is bull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC) There were also thousands of victims shot at Babi Yar, all Ukrainians, by Stalin, before the outbreak of the Soviet- Nazi war. I hope their bodies don't get mistaken, or don't get counted as some Jewish victims Adolf23653 14:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)adolf23653
If someone have idea to put photo of one of memorials, you can get it here (photos taken by me). -- Yonkie 23:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I recall reading about the "Ukrainians collaborators" in a reliable source and will not question the validity of this fact. However, i.m.h.o. the following sentence is not a good statement as it requires further information:
Where, when and by whom it was "documented and proven"? Without proper references such an statement sounds more emotional than factual.
Any source for the 700 psychiatric patients? Beware of einsatzgruppen reports. I remember one that was signed by an officer who had been dead for about 6 months - I would guess that particular report was a forgery.
My understanding was that the Ukranians were a constant source of problems for the USSR. I have heard that many fought for the Germans during WW2 and for the White army before WW2 ( they have never been on friendly terms even today). Is there some overlap between Babi-Yar and these other conflicts - confusion as to counts etc over time.
Oh I love this quote "Concerning Babi Yar, Elie Wiesel stated "Eye witnesses say that for months after the killings the ground continued to spurt geysers of blood." Yeah ok. That about sums up how realistic not to mention reliable the so called eye witness reports are regarding Babi Yar. The picture in the article does not show any corpses being burried or exhumed, only people who cannot be indentified, although it certainly appears they are not wearing German uniforms or overcoats. Its also interesting that hunderds of thousands of blood gushing corpses werent dug up or washed away by the subsequent mud slides and urban development. -- Nazrac 05:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes you think I'm denying anything, I merely have difficulty with the above claim, can bodies physically gush blood out of the ground days after being shot? I don't suppose thats an experiment that can be reproduced, however it raises some questions about what exactly is being added/invented in such testimony. I seems expressing doubt about one detail means I deny the entire Holocaust according to you? Is there a complete list of exactly what is covered under the Holocaust or is it simply a blanket term that can be invoked, added or subtracted from whenever those who promote it decide it is convenient to do so? I certainly don't deny mass shootings at Babi Yar, a sad tragedy indeed. More sad still are people like you who cheapen such tragedies by using it as a vessel of criticism and propaganda. In my above post I merely critisize the photograph and the above eyewitness testimony, which I consider suspect. Does that mean such a massacre absolutely did not occur? certain not. As far as Eichmann is concerned, imagine Iran kidnapping former Israeli intelligence officers and putting them on trial for crimes against Islam or something similar. That would be on about the same level of legitimacy as the Eichmann trial. If Eichmann felt he really had something terrible to hide you would think he would have had the sense to change his and his families last name in order to elude capture by his persuers. I suppose it would be fair to conclude he never saw it coming, dont you think?
Perhaps I should take this moment in time to explain my family members also fought against the 3rd Reich, saw incredible suffering and many terrible things. They also had the wisdom to recognize the futility of war, and that no person or group of people can (morally) benefit at the expense of others. Those who deliberately start war and conflict and sow discord among people will ultimately be held accountable for their actions, I suppose if Eichmann was guilty of such things he had it coming. Therefore any others on the world stage guilty of the same actions also can legitimately expect to be kidnapped and hanged by their adversaries? -- Nazrac 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You must be terribly paranoid. You keep making inferences everywhere about hidden anti-semitism lurking around every corner, hidden in every criticism or comment. I guess Eichmann being responsible for the deaths and suffering of countless people is different than Israeli aggression against its neighbours because its only a crime if Jews re the victims? Further, it seems the Holocaust is like a get out of jail free card that is immediately invoked the moment criticism is made. You would think lessons would be learned from the Holocaust, apparently not. Being the victim of one does not give a people the right to act like the same aggressors who victimized them in the first place. Such incredible arrogance and hypocracy can only cultivate anti-semitism rather than discourage it. There are a great many Jewish people who also echo those exact same sentiments, and I admire them greatly for having the courage to say it knowing they will face harassment and persecution from their own people. Keep finding hidden anti-semitic conspiracies and motives everywhere, eventually you may realize you are the one who keeps fanning the flames and keeping it well stoked. -- Nazrac 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
The entire Babi Yar story I thought had been consigned to the dust bin of history. Wat-time aerial photos - and post-war photos - and on-site surveys - and ground radar - etc came up with zilch. Isn't there any myth that can be abandoned - folks stick with a few good ones, not ones you have already lost. Embarrassment should eventually lead to accuracy, at least in this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 ( talk • contribs) .
"anything but fact" - Can we assume that the US aerial photos were found to be forgeries?
From the above, a person might conclude that you would rather publish propaganda than "facts". Dispute "facts" - ie aerial photos, etc - if you want to but ranting about "personal attacks"etc makes you look like a personal who engages in "personal attacks"etc.
-- Sean 06:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Revisionism has its own article in Wikipedia. So does Holocaust Denier. Kindly keep comments about "reasonable doubt," "alleged incident" and "myths" confined to those pages. Einsatzgruppe Operational Situation Report 101 claims 33,771 Jews killed September 29 and 30. I'll take the words of the group responsible, thank you very much.
Are you advocating paralell truths. Is this a code word or a supercode word. Who writes the denier article - it appears not to be deniers?
Sorry to contradict you but the Holocaust Denial article has been totally taken over by proholocaust writers, if you didn't know.
159.105.80.141 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC) It's almost funny to read the discussion page, had forgotten it for some time. They work on it almost everyday, they are totally convinced by their own argument, of course they don't want to hear any denial stuff.
159.105.80.141
19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This section starts with the sweeping statement: 'The Soviet Union was anti-semitic'. Could someone outline (and source) what form this took and what the justification for not creating a memorial was? Ashmoo 00:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Current version (29 Sept 2006, 7:35 AM Eastern Time) has "hilarious" in first paragraph that is probably vandalism or remnant of past vandalism.
Soviet Union was anti-Semitic? You have got to be kidding. A very large number of the Communist leaders were Jewish I believe. In later years other ethnic groups became more equally represented. but I don't think anti-Semetic could ever be applied to Communist Russia - currently that is not so but then Russia is now capitalist, with a small favoring of mobster thrown in.
I do not believe that "hilarious" is the correct or intended adjective in the introductory sentence. Perhaps horrific or horrendous would be more appropriate?
Mark Woermke
The article includes the name of one victim. I'm thinking that that is sort of PoVish, and should be removed. (the text mentions Jews, of course, Roma, Soviet prisoners, and mental patients. Should it mention Ukrainians or Ukrainian activists as well?) Jd2718 03:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be more respectful to the dead at least to mention that they were Ukrainians and Russians, not "some other civilians". -- Hillock65 03:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I do agree the article needs improvement. In my view in its present form it is one sided and does not correspond to NPOV. While this tragedy is undoubtedly is one of the worst in Jewish history it should not exclude other nationalities and should not present unjustified and unsubstantiated accusations. In my opinion there is an obvious attempt to smear Ukrainians as a whole along with the perpetrators of this tragedy. What I have in mind is the following:
I think putting kikes or zhids in the article is over the top. Besides, the question which word is derogatory is very subjective. As far as the word "жид" goes it depends on where it is uttered. It is a literary norm for "Jew" in Poland, Lithuania and a few other countries. In Ukraine in different regions the use of it was different too. Shevchenko always used it, the old version of the Bible almost exclusively uses this word too, because there were no other in the Ukrainian language. Some people didn't think it derogatory as for example did volunteers of the Ukrainian Galician Army who formed the Жидівський курінь(Zhydivs’kyy Kurin’ UHA) in the Ukrainian Galician Army. Now it is derogatory because it is derogatory in Russian, but it was not always the case in Ukraine as it is also not derogatory in Poland. Was it meant to afflict additional pain to the victims? It is hard to say now, but being so particular about that word I think is petty. Is it adding insult to injury? I think the injury was big enough to go into pieces over linguistic peculiarities.-- Hillock65 04:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is another translation into English of the same passage - (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html Babi Yar). The Ukrainian_English Dictionary compiled by C H. Andrusyshen and J. Krett Published by the University of Saskatoon and the University of Toronto Press Original printing 1955 have for the word Zhyd - m Jew, Hebrew with a list of 32 words that use this ethnonym as its root. No mention of the word kike in any of the translations. Bandurist 05:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, your own evidence proves you wrong. Let me know if you need translation:
Уряд Української Народної Республіки 1917–1921 років офіційно вживав слово “єврей”. Після 1918 року це слово реєструється у всіх словниках на східноукраїнських землях. Зустрічається воно і в галицьких виданнях, наприклад, “Словничок української мови і головні правописні правила та замітки до відміни Костя Кисілевського” (Станислав, 1927) має “єврей” із відмінковими формами, а також “єврейський”, “євреїзм” (с. 95), “Український правопис із словничком”, що його впорядкував Михайло Возняк (Львів, НТШ, 1929), реєструє “єврей” і “єврейський” (с. 114). Мають ті слова “Українська загальна енциклопедія” (Львів, 1931, т. І, с. 1259) та “Українсько-німецький словник” (Ляйпціг, 1943) Зенона Кузелі, Ярослава Рудницького й Карла Маєра. У цьому ж таки словнику є й похідні слова, а саме “єврейка” і “єврейство” (с. 213).
Парадоксально, але за такою ж точнісінько схемою аргументації, як ми бачили, українофоби заперечували можливість визнання етноніму “українець”. Російські, польські, угорські шовіністи здіймали лемент, що, мовляв, етнонім “українець” антиісторичний, бо в давніх історичних пам’ятках його немає (наводились приклади). По‑друге, це чужинецький мовний неологізм, якого не сприймають їхні мови. У Росії етнонім “українець” вважали польською інтригою, в Польщі — австрійською, а в Угорщині та Румунії — галицькою. Одностайно заперечувалось проте його таки українське походження, так само, як не визнається, що термін “єврей” аж ніяк не російського, а таки єврейського походження. “Хто як хто, але українці, — які з таким трудом змагалися і ще досі змагаються, щоб їх означували назвою “українець” (а не “русин”) — хіба найкраще повинні б розуміти, що про свою назву має право вирішувати народ, до якого ця назва належить; і що ми бачимо культурність та доброзичливість з боку тих народів, які називають нас так, як ми хочемо, щоб нас називали. Це повинен мати на увазі кожен у справі національної назви Єврейського народу.
Please remember that we are talking here about a Nazi announcement in Kiev (not Lviv) in 1941 and please remember its immediate result. As for your insinuation that someone "attempts to make Ukrainians into anti-semites", please review WP:NPA, WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. At this point let's assume you know our policies, in the future expect to be held responsible for your words. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Both point to the same website, AFAIK. Please explain the edits. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Counterfeit ARC website online! Beware!
All,
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It appears that some of the counterfeit websites are linked to forums and websites sympathetic to Nazi and Supremacist groups.
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Hello. Some idiot erase some paragraphs and wrote this at the middle of the page: = World War II
I have been digging up anything and everything regarding Babyn Yar in Ukrainian sources for the past couple of weeks. Here is some of the material I have found which I think maybe worthy of discussion. I don't know if this could be included in the article. Rather than spoil it, here is what I have put togther
Babyn Yar is considered by some to be the greatest Jewish tragedy of WWII.
At the time in 1941 it was reported that the Nazis had herded thousands of Jews to an unused part of an Orthodox Cemetery in occupied Kiev. They commanded those who did not hand over their precious possessions to strip. All gold was removed from their clothes and that these Jews were deported from Kiev.
The truth however, was somewhat different.
Soviet scholars avoided mentioning Babyn Yar because it was also the place where in the late 1930’s hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens were buried – victims of the Ukrainian Famine and NKVD executions..
In recent times however, interest has been once again turned to Babyn Yar and primarily the events that took place there during WWII.
Immediately after WWII Soviet Colonel and investigator O. Smirnov pointed out the matter of Babyn Yar at the Nuremberg trials. At that time it seems that the information was poorly presented and as a result was summarily dismissed by judges Murray Bernice and David Marcus who looked upon the Babyn Yar tragedy as one of secondary importance. As a result the tragedy was also not picked up at all by the Western Press.
During the Nuremberg Trials the tragedies of Lviv, Crimea and Odessa took precedence. At that time Babyn Yar only had approximately 100 thousand victims, whereas Lviv was reported to have had 600 thousand (according to the report of the Special State Commission of December 23, 1944), Crimea 200 thousand victims who were drowned, and Odessa 200 thousand were reported to have been burned alive. In Kharkiv, it was reported that 195 thousand Jews were killed, and the town of [[Slavuta lost 150 thousand “Soviet citizens”. (These numbers are taken from the 48 volume collection of materials regarding the Nuremberg Trials for 14 November, 1945 and 1 October, 1946 which were published in 1947. Currently these statistics are rarely mentioned as they have been shown to have been over-inflated.)
With the formation of the State of Israel the Soviet Union intensified its anti-Israeli policies. For 15 years no mention was made about any Jewish tragedy in Babyn Yar or in any other centre. In 1960 however, the babyn Yar matter surfaced once again.
Joseph Schechtman, a delegate from Odessa to the Ukrainian National Council in 1919 and later the Secretary for Jewish Nationalities under the Petlura government in Kiev in 1921 had emigrated to the United States where during WWII he worked with the OSS and later the CIA. In 1960 Schechtman visited Ukraine and upon returning to the United States published in 1961 his book «Star in Eclipse» which gives an account of the Babyn Yar tragedy.
Schlechtman’s book however, did not at the time do much raise awareness of the Babyn Yar tragedy. In 1966 during a period of anti-German and anti-Ukrainian campaigns in Ukraine, the Babyn Yar tragedy was once again brought to the forefront. In 1968 criminal proceedings were launched in Darmschtadt where 11 executions were ordered. At this time the New York Times published an article which awakened the American Jewish diaspora to the happenings at Babyn Yar.
In 1987 in a cinema documentary film by Vitaly Korotych, the editor of the influential Ogonek magazine, also brought the tragedy to the forefront.
In the 1990’s the Babyn Yar massacre began to be associated with the largest single massacre in the history of humanity. -- Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The Head of the Jewish Council of Ukraine Illiya Levitas states that Babyn Yar is “a mystery wrapped in an enigma”. In an article “Undecyphered secrets of Babyn Yar “ published in the weekly newspaper “Yevreyski vesti” in 1993 he wrote about the killing of Jews in Babyn Yar, however he also stated that there were some 15 conflicting items in the history which have not been adequately explained and which troubled him. He stated that “the number of Jewish victims is constantly rising, despite the fact that the special commission for the study of criminal acts done by the Fascists on occupied territory, which began to work immediately after Kiev was liberated from the Nazi’s, gives a precise number of 33 771 people. How this number came into the hands of the Special Commission is also unexplained. The exact same number was in both Soviet and German documents and this is what he called a “mystery wrapped in an enigma”.
There is a suggestion that the secret report of the Einsatzgruppen where this number appears could possibly be a forgery created by the Soviets. This however has not been proved either way. http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101. htmlhttp://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/osr/osr-101.html
There are also numerous discrepancies from eye-witnesses regarding such mundane things as the weather during this time period, which also attested to some distortion of information. -- Bandurist 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the note about Zhyd being a slur in Ukrainian, except for those areas under Polish control (1920-39). user:Humus Sapiens reverted me. We exchanged these notes, which may be of general interest: Jd2718 22:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
HS, thank you for improving this article. I am a bit puzzled by the Kuznetsov citation. What is it telling us? And why is it significant? Not really related, but that last bit on vandalism (introduced, if you'll forgive me, in a way that annoyed one group of editors) and the notation about the official Ukrainian government response (really, a response by the offended editors to the reference to vandalism), is that piece of information and the official response notable in the context of this article? Jd2718 23:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the local streets was renamed for a Ukrainian poetess who killed in the ravine. I don't know when the renaming happened. I wonder if it was an attempt to (there is no way not to put this badly, I do apologize) claim a share of the victimization? Personally it bothers me (why should 37,000 Jews be anonymous while one non-Jew is honored) but the article is not supposed to be about personal feelings. Should the connection between the streetname and the site be mentioned? How? Jd2718 00:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC) Okay, first of all, 2/3 of people executed at Babin Yar were non Jews- mostly Ukrainians, some Russians. So do you really think that their names should be kept silent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smythe03 ( talk • contribs) 14:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
There is a monument specifically dedicated to Olena on the Babyn Yar site. There was a sentence or two about her, and her execution, in Babyn Yar in Wiki article earlier, however it was removed a number of times.
They were however executed there on February 22, 1942 some 6 months after the reported mass Jewish extermination -- Bandurist 11:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Obviously the main focus of this article is the massacre, as it should be. Should we perhaps rename the article to Babi Yar massacre, just for accuracy's sake? K. Lásztocska 18:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I see an edit of mine was reverted and called nonsense. I removed the the phrase "of whom a significant number were Jews" from the following paragraph:
The reference [4] links to a source which says:
The first sentence in the para clearly links to the first sentence I have extracted from the source, referring to Jews. The next sentence seems to link to the second para about non-Jews. The phrase "significant number" is extracted fron the first paragraph, and refers to informers, not to victims. No indication at all is given in the source as to the proportion of the "more than 100,000 people" who were Jewish - though it was obviously more (and presumably considerably more) than 33,771 out of 100,000. That this is a significant number is not in doubt, but that the source does not say that is also clear. There is no need to have this phrase, since the information is already given - making the phrase "significant number" virtualy meaningless. I suggest that this whole sentence be rephrased to avoid the impression that a source is being misquoted, since the expression "significant number" in the source clearly does not refer to victims. Paul B ( talk) 15:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The list of Ukrainian Nationalists in the article is inappropriate. The singling out of a small, non-representative sample of victims, esp since the group would be the political allies of the current leaders in Kiev, and when most are non-notable, is irredeemably POV. The list should be deleted. Jd2718 ( talk) 01:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The tragedy at Babi Yar is not just a Jewish tragedy but one that also affected ethnic Ukrainians and other nationalities. Prominent Ukrainian cultural leaders, writers and musicians and clerics were murdered there. They deserve to be remembered and mentioned in the article. -- Bandurist ( talk) 04:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
If you know of any prominent Jewish cultural figures amongst those executed please add them. I know that Olena Teliha and her husband Mykhailo Teliha have their own separate articles on wikipedia and indeed one of the streets on which the memorial complex lies is named after Olena Teliha. With this in mind, I do not think it is fitting to remove her name only because she had Ukrainian nationalist aspirations or because many of the victims cannot be named. Bandurist ( talk) 12:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
(undent) I don't if this is going to help or cause more problems, but there is now List of victims of the Babi Yar massacre. I would suggest organizing it by profession and then by nationality, but if nationality seems preferred, it's there. It's massively incomplete, so I hope everyone works there. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 20:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
i agree with everyone here, but i suspect the request is also, since (almost) the whole ukrainian antifascist/ antiracist movement (and a few tolerant uncollaborative clergy) of the time was also murdered there.. can we examplify that by just telling it in the other massacres at babi yar or some such chapter.
I thik one of th3 things missing from the article is a map showing the location for the site and directions how people can get there to visit the memorials. I also think more should be done to present and expose the extent of collaboration of OUN members not only at this site but also at other sites of jewish massacares in Western Ukraine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.243.157.204 ( talk) 18:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
...is not in dispute. But a user is attempting to remove it from the lead. Comments? Jd2718 ( talk) 13:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
] There is no mention of "Ukrainian police" taking part in the killings.
[ http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005518 ]
Bandurist ( talk) 13:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
On their identity: German sources as well as local witnesses confirm the presence of non-German auxiliaries; various accounts suggest that the victims were "marched down a corridor" of these police, or were undressed, "kicked and shoved" towards the execution squads by them.
It is likely that these auxiliaries - as well as the Ukrainians at the checkpoint and those who shouted about waiting trains - belonged to units created and commanded by Melnykites, namely the "Bukovinian battalion" and a company of what was then called the "Ukranian Police".
From Berkhoff, Karel Cornelis (2004). Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine Under Nazi Rule. Harvard University Press. p. 68. This can be added if necessary. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 15:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
If the problem is that the current wording implies that they contributed members to the firing squads, which is not generally considered to be the case, then it can be changed. I however think that "assisted" seems reasonably accurate. -- Relata refero ( disp.) 15:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the Bukovynian Battalion. According to Ukrainian historians the battalion entered Kyiv between the first days of November, being documented in Kyiv by the 23rd November. As a result they could not have taken part in the mass executions in Babiy Yar in September.
So where does the myth of the inclusion of the Bukovynian battalion and Babiy Yar come from? The first mentions come from a book by film director Alex Shlayen written in 1981 and published in 1995.
An article about the conflicting dates of the Bukovynian Battalions stay in Kyiv appeared in the Ukrainian Historian Journal by Vitaly Nakhmanovych - the secretary of the Babiy Yar Committee.
For further information a shortened web version of the article appears here. See БУКОВИНСЬКИЙ КУРІНЬ І МАСОВІ РОЗСТРІЛИ ЄВРЕЇВ У БАБИНОМУ ЯРУ - The Bukovynian Battalion and the mass shootings of Jews in Babiy Yar (in Ukrainian) Bandurist ( talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
The photographs depict "police" in from what I can see Soviet army overcoats with police armbands. The origins of these "police" at the time of the atrocity IMHO points in a different direction than "blame it on the Ukrainian nationalists".
From informants I have spoken to, those who the Soviets had previously branded were "neblagonadiozhni" (unreliable) (they may have been from families of Kulaks etc.) were given the task of digging anti-tank traps around Kyiv. They had a stamp in their passports on the page dealing with their military obligations stating that were not reliable, and as a result they were not given guns. The Germans came around from a different angle. Those that had the stamp in their documents "unreliable" were not taken as POW's and were released. This could be the source of these initial police detachments - but then this is only conjecture. Bandurist ( talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
You have:
The Russian Wikipedia gives: Занимал должность коменданта полиции г. Киева с ноября 1941. The Ukrainian Wikipedia tells us: That he took on the position of commаndant of the Kiev police from November 1941, which is the time when the auxillary Police force was officially formed (from the Kiev battalion), in September there was no Ukrainian Auxillary police in Kiev. It had not yet been officially formed. Zakhvalynski arrived in Kyiv in October. How could he participate or command the Ukrainian Auxillary police for an action that took place in September? Bandurist ( talk) 17:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Please keep in mind I am not stating that Ukrainians were not involved in the rounding up of the Kyivan Jewish Community. It is just that in the rush for "credibility" people tend to assume various things which do not accurately portray the historic time-line. As a result inaccuracies "pop in". The subject matter is very delicate as it relates to relationships between ethnic communities. It is also difficult to accurately depict the period because of the distance in time. It is also difficult to accurately portray the events because of the fact that it has been a political football for the various groups. What is interesting is that as allegations are published they are addressed by scholars. Wikipedia is strong because it can provide a meeting ground for the various sides and wit the aid of the internet can be current. IMHO however it is far better to err on the more conservative side than to "push" particular POV and escalate matter-s.
I do apologise if I have offended anyone. That was not my intention. Bandurist ( talk) 20:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Why are so many things commented out in this article?-- Filll ( talk | wpc) 17:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I removed this map:
The idea of including a map to locate Kiev is a good one, but this was not the right choice:
Does the map inform? Absent context, this map does not inform this article.
Some alternatives, which might work:
Jd2718 ( talk) 15:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Someone has systematically changed each reference to the modern Ukrainian spelling, in preference to the common name in English. Further, they have changed the name in references. I will change all back to Babi Yar, except where the Ukrainian name is explicitly given. Jd2718 ( talk) 23:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
This file: File:Big-babijar14.jpg.jpeg
appears to have been altered. It does not match the source given. The uploader was user:Bandurist. The original has only the Ukrainian and German - the uploader appears to have either created the Russian or taken it from somewhere else and combined it into a single image. My question from months ago on Meta has gone unanswered. Jd2718 ( talk) 23:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I updated the description of sources at the image page. - Altenmann >t 03:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the site that you supplied (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/babi%20yar.html) I noticed that it has been updated considerably, especially with the colourful maps. It also seems that they have doctored the poster there, by cutting the original in half and retaining just the Ukrainian and German versions and remiving the main announcement in Russian. Not very nice of them. They seem to be pushing a particular POV. You will notice that I posted the image in Commons two years ago and only one change has occurred since then where someone else change the catagory from Ukrainian to Russian.
Your allegations and innuendo are outrageous, improper and disgusting. Bandurist ( talk) 03:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I see the joke, but it really is just a typo. -- Bandurist ( talk) 05:49, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Found some interesting info:
The Jews of Kyiv and its environs were informed via placards that they had to assemble with all their belongings at a specific place. This placard was not ready until the day before.
The 'placard' was printed in Russian, Ukrainian and German and allegedly read [translation of German text]:
"All the Jews of Kiev are to gather until 8 o'clock on Monday, September 29, 1941, at the corner of Melnik and Dokteriwski Streets (at the cemeteries). Bring your papers, money and valuables, also warm clothing etc.
"Anyone failing to comply with this order, and found elsewhere, will be shot.
"Anyone breaking into vacant Jewish homes or appropriating items from the same will be shot."
No issuing authority is given? Name and rank of the issuing commander? Date of issue?
Regarding the German text:
8 o'clock in the morning or 8 o'clock in the evening? 'Until' 8 o'clock? The original German text was printed using "oe", "ae" and "ss" instead of "ö", "ä" and "ß". Did the printer for the 6th Army not have any umlauts in his fonts? "Dokteriwski Street" is incorrect. The street was called "Djegtjariwskoi", ie. Tarburner Street. "Melnik Street" is incorrect. It is correctly called "Melnikowa Street". It is named for a Mr. Melnikow. "An den Friedhöfen" (the original German wording for "at the cemeteries") is incorrect German. Aside from that, the Russian text has only one cemetery. The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust claims that the purpose of the order was "resettlement". What is the source of this insight? The placard makes no mention of this. What is meant by "found elsewhere"? When people converge on a location from everywhere else, everywhere is "elsewhere". How likely is it that a military propaganda division and an army printer would do such sloppy work?
Regarding the Russian text: The term used for Jews ("schidy") is contemptuous Russian gutter jargon. What sort of results can one expect when even the order to assemble bodes ill? Did they actually want to run the risk of having a large part of the Jews not show up at all, and go into hiding? Perhaps they even intended that in such a case they would put all armed conflict on hold, and employ their forces in locating the Jews instead...?
Here, too, the street names are incorrect. Moreover, the declension of "street" and that of "cemetery" are both wrong. The Russian text specifies 8:00 a.m. No mention is made of resettlement! In the list of things to bring, what does "etc." mean?
Regarding the Ukrainian text: Again, incorrect street names, and no hint as to the purpose of the assembly. Whoever may have been responsible for this 'order' - what were they thinking of: after the occupation of Kyiv, and with an anonymous placard, with name-calling and threats of execution, to order perhaps 100,000 or even more Jews to assemble literally over night and with potentially all their belongings, at a street corner at 8 o'clock the next morning?
Bandurist (
talk)
17:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
I rewrote this to focus on the massacre itself and spun off most of the historiography and memorials into a separate article. I brought in the fairly good discussion from the main article on The Holocaust which seemed pretty good to me. One of my criticisms of of The Holocaust was that it was so long that it was impossible to check and verify facts and sources. The memorial section I felt was overlong and had enough notability to justify a separate article. Also, there was a forest of external links, that was one way to pare down on them. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 01:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The image in the infobox turned out to be most likely from the Mizoch ghetto liquidation on October 14, 1942. I replaced it with the announcement image. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 23:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Bandurist has attempted to link a "letter to the editor" as an external source. The letter, written in 1991 to a Toronto newspaper, is from a Ukrainian nationalist who denies, by arguing lack of evidence, that Ukrainian police were in any way involved in the massacre. The link itself is to a Canadian hate site.
There is nothing in this letter that would tend to make it valuable. It could not be used as a reliable source. It should not be used as a reference.
Further, I do not know why the editor linked a hate site. Jd2718 17:08, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
that is the "not shooting is less evil" argument we see at the trials (48) already. could here be the result of a person (werya) trying to excuse himself.technically the newly reemerged east european nationalisms lived up to many expectations. 24.132.171.225 ( talk) 03:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
Zhyd in Ukrainian Means Jew The Encyclopedia of Ukraine, published by the University of Toronto Press, says that the word Jew has two Ukrainian equivalents: Zhyd and Yevrei. Zhyd is the common and correct word in Western Ukraine, as it is in Poland, while Yevrei is more common in Eastern Ukraine due to Russian influence. Some Jewish scholars such as Solomon Goldelman insist that Zhyd is the only correct word in Ukrainian for Jew. In the Ukrainian language Zhyd (Jew) and Yevrei (Hebrew) mean simply Jew and neither is pejorative. However, it should be noted that the Russian language uses Yevrei for Jew and does use Zhid as a pejorative.
When I asked Rabbi Bleich in Kiev which was the correct term in his opinion he answered that both Zhyd and Yevrei were acceptable in Ukrainian. -- Bandurist 03:30, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. "Zhyd" is used as an insult in east Ukraine and Russian language.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 16:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In film "Apt Pupil" made by Stephen Kings book ex-nazi character is saying that he was in B. Yar and took part in the events that were here. That was pretty brief scene but important for the film, because there Artur sad smth. like "It wasn't good, but it should be done" showing for the first time in the film that he was supporter of such politics and didn't change his mind. If this is enough of a reason please add this in article.-- Oleg Str ( talk) 16:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Raul Hilberg - this is a quote from Hilberg - could be included in the article. "The wartime aerial photos of Kiev provide incontrovertible proof that the so-called historic documentation of the Babi Yar massacre represents fabricated wartime propaganda and post-war martyr mythology. Perhaps the Nazis had, as promised, deported the missing Kievans away from Kiev. If so, their remains and burial sites should be sought elsewhere." I just tripped across it - maybe everyone did. Maybe this quote should be in Holocaust Denial and/or Hilberg,s biography also/instead. 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 11:36, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I just read that the Russians evacuated the Jews from this area before the Germans arrived - Russian wartime documents. Is the consensus that the Russians falsified their contemporaneous records - for what purpose. 159.105.80.141 ( talk) 19:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The article claims thousands of Ukrainians were killed at Babi Yar? How? Were they too drunk after shooting the Jews and fell into the ravine by accident breaking their necks? This article is slowly trying to show Ukrainians, not as collaborators who happily informed on their Jewish neighbors, but as some kind of victims who were also shot at Babi Yar. I can put up 10 refs showing that Ukrainians murdered Ukrainian Jews while singing and dancing and kissed Germans for helping them kill Jews.
This article is being hijacked in an attempt to rewrite history and make Ukrainians victims instead of collaborators. I already found 2 statements with references which say nothing as is claimed. Can we get some consensus, any admins out here? Cheers? I dunno. Meishern ( talk) 09:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted a recent edit to change "execution" back to "murder", in describing what was done at Babi Yar. Murder is unlawful killing, whether by an individual or by the state. To suggest that the word execution is legitimate applies a euphemism the Nazis themselves would approve. Peterlewis ( talk) 17:08, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
"using local headstones as bricks" - Please check some of this garbage out with a mason, or anybody from a woodstove factory...... Constructing a crematorium with stones - wow this really shows wiki's lack of scientific knowledge. Where are these stones today? Did they lug them far away to a distant land where stones disappear?
159.105.80.220 (
talk) 20:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)I should be clearer - stones would make a low temp thingy - for cremation you need a little more high tech material and design. It's the difference between a cookstove ( if you want to eat the bodies) or a kiln ( if you want to reduce them to ashes ). Heat a stone with a propane torch - Tiger Torch - and see what happens ( stand far far far back). If you want a fire hot enough to cremate send the guy with the stone idea out for beer.
159.105.80.220 (
talk)
20:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be no mention of the notorious fact that during Soviet times, Jews were not allowed to be mentioned in memorials and commemorations... AnonMoos ( talk) 22:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Regarding my recent undiscussed and unhelpful edit: the section on the Massacres of 29-30 September has the following problems:
AxelBoldt ( talk) 23:38, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
This sentence:
seems to ignore basic rules of grammar, but when I tried to edit it, someone reverted it (along with another of my edits) with no explanation other than "2 unhelpful edits" which, I doubt he would be able to understand himself if he used that summary reverting his own edits. (Perhaps he's confused in some hurry like I sometimes am...) I might redo the edits if no comprehensible explanation arises. The reason for my 1st edit, btw, is because "retaliation", especially in war times, implies an instantaneous counter attack at the direction enemy fire comes from. If there was a crowd of civilians next to the Nazis with gunfire going somewhere from the crowd to the Nazis, "retaliation" would be a possible, although nowhere close to justifying, excuse for a massacre. Systematically massacring a population of Jewish civilians by deceiving them to gather at a murdering field doesn't seem to fit with the word "retaliation" extremely well. The reason for my 2nd edit, of course, is to fix the obvious sentence fragment: "and SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the SS and Police Leader at Rear Headquarters Army Group South." That sentence also begins with "and" with a lower case "a." 173.180.202.22 ( talk) 20:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I think 'retailiation' reads better than 'revenge', because we are describing the claim of the German officer, and should thus use terms more suitable to a public announcement. I've reverted, because three editors (counting myself) prefer 'retaliation' to one who prefers 'revenge'. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 18:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
I also disagree that using 'retaliation' makes the tone more sympathetic to the Nazis
173.180.202.22 ( talk) 02:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps the reason it feels so correct and obvious to see revenge as inappropriate because it "implies that victims were somehow responsible for what was done to them" is because none of us were examining how retaliation also implies so. Dictionary.com, [13], does show the requirement for a provocation by the victim during an instance of retaliation. I think another point can be made before I am convinced. 173.180.202.22 ( talk) 04:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
" In 1943, after the German surrender at Stalingrad, Grossman was with the first Red Army units to liberate the Ukraine. He learned about Babi Yar, where 100,000 people, most of them Jews, were massacred.
"With the support of the Soviet Jewish Antifascist Committee he with the equally great writer, Vasily Grossman, enlisted some twenty-four reporters to gather eyewitness accounts of the hideous torture and murder of Soviet Jews, captured Red Army soldiers, and communists."
source: Black book of Soviet Jewry, Ehrenburg & Grossman. "This present edition, the English translation of the original 1993 edition was first published in 2002." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valleyspring ( talk • contribs) 05:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
user:Lvivske has replaced Nazis with "German forces" (without explanation or edit summary), and Ukrainian collaborators with "Soviet collaborators" (without explanation or edit summary) and then with "local collaborators" (claiming "considering many more ukrainians were killed, seems a POV push to emphasize ethnic background"). Is there any reason not to call the killers Nazis? Is there any claim that the collaborators at Babi Yar were not Ukrainians? A large group of people were murdered precisely for their ethnicity; doesn't that make ethnicity here quite relevant? Jd2718 ( talk) 05:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Using the word "Nazis" would imply that every participant was a believer in NS-ideology. Would you agree to refer to all American, British etc. troops that were in Iraq as "Neocon-imperialists"? Not everyone in the Red Army was a Communist, not every soldier in the Wehrmacht a Nazi, not everyone in the US Army an Imperialistic Capitalist and so on. I think events should be described as accurately as possible without more or less concealed attempts to influence the reader. The facts presented (as accurate and honest as possible) should be enough. Readers might even start to doubt the content if such propaganda language is used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.118.119.133 ( talk) 18:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Where are the mass graves of the 33.000 to 150.000 corpses? -- 165.165.83.226 ( talk) 13:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
To the uphill side of Olena Teliha.-- 73.13.88.76 ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
"The most notorious" massacre had 34 000 victims, while "other massacres" had 150 000 victims... Is that event which causes the most loss of life not consequently the most notorious? Are all human lives really equal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.189.139.145 ( talk) 02:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Some changes were made to the main section of the article about the massacres of 29-30 September 1941:
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Has any real research on the ground ever been done here. Modern forensics would be very helpful.
2601:181:8301:4510:A1A2:DFA0:42C9:E160 (
talk)
02:49, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I believe the first introductory paragraphs to this article need to be more objective. They center around the Jewish experience, yet it appears as if the total numbers of humans killed were two or four times the number of Jews killed. And for instance it makes lengthy comparisons between the severity of this Jewish massacre compared to other Jewish massacres, yet it ignores a comparison among, say the Romano massacres. Why such an emphasis on Jewish deaths, and how significant are the numbers of deaths when the fact is all those deaths were due to false philosophies among the Nazi leaders?
I suggest that the first paragraph give the overall picture, with the total numbers killed, with other details that do not narrow down to the deaths of any constituent group. It's certainly okay to mention all those facts with respect to the Jewish deaths later on in article, but again, I hope to see similar treatment of other groups. As the article begins now, it appears we are concerned more about Jewish deaths than we are about the deaths in other groups.
Thank you. Iwasathought ( talk) 16:16, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
The name of the third player mentioned is given as Putistin but it is not supported by the citation which names him as Kuzmenko. Putistin according to the wiki article on the Death Match escaped from the camp in 1943 and was living as late as 1966 when (apparently not wishing to endorse Soviet propaganda) he declined to receive Soviet honours for his part in the Match. Cloptonson ( talk) 10:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
Hello folks, just asked the two items present on WD to be merged, as there is one only event. Best, et Hop ! Kikuyu3 ( talk) 16:27, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
In the historical background section, why is there no mention of, outside of the Holocaust, the largest mass slaughter of Jews in history in the pogroms in Ukraine at the turn of the century that lasted periodically through the First World War? If not the pogroms of the early 1900s then I would think the massacres by Petliuris forces after WWI (50,000-100,000 Jewish victims) would be appropriate to discuss when talking about historical context, especially considering Ukranian police and local participation in Babyn Yar and the long standing history of anti semitism in Ukraine at the time of the massacre... 2600:1009:B01C:6320:B19B:B131:3DD0:5EFF ( talk) 21:59, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I don't claim particular subject knowledge, but I do note that this article changed dramatically shortly after the Russian invasion of Ukraine in Feb 2022. The article now includes Ukrainian collaborators (not soviet). It may be correct, but it seems like while Putin was claiming that modern Ukraine is filled with neo-nazis, suddenly this article adds blame to the Ukrainian people. I won't edit the article - but would be interested in other's views. 108.30.115.193 ( talk) 08:26, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
The article is about Ukrainian city, place in Ukraine and about Ukrainian victims in the list of all victims from there. Why does the name of the article is transcription from russian language? I mean in ukrainian we call it only "Бабин Яр" (Babyn Yar) and even for some Ukrainians who talk in russian that is Banyn Yar, not Babi Yar. Can y'all please change it? Ask for that as ukrainian. Thank you. Artekimus ( talk) 09:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The lead says: Victims of massacres at the site
included members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
. The source used
[15] says: "Several dozen OUN members fell victim to the Germans in Kyiv. These were mostly Melnykites, who up until then had coexisted and cooperated with the occupiers." In page 216 it says: "The shootings were carried out in an anti-tank ditch, as well as in pits that were dug in the open area in the Babyn Yar district (but not in the ravine itself)". Also the same source says: "Although successors to the OUN(M) in modern Ukraine and in the Ukrainian diaspora state that the Germans killed as many as 621 activists of the movement in Kyiv between 1941 and 1943, careful calculations show this number to be incorrect. A shorter list, of 62 names, mentioned
on a memorial cross placed in 1992, also requires verification, as at least some of these OUN
members were not victims of Nazism." Also the section in the source is called "Ukrainian Nationalists as Victims of Nazi Germany", not "Ukrainian Nationalists as Victims of Babyn Yar". Meanwhile in the body it says: Among those murdered were 621 members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN).
While it links to
this source. It also raises the question of
WP:DUE weight.
Mellk (
talk)
19:24, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
I really think this article should go back to using the previous image. Right now, it's a colorized version of a photo taken by the SS. It's credited to Johannes Haehle and listed as being created on 1 October 1941, but the coloring is ex post facto. I know that colorization can bring the past to life and make it more "interesting" to modern audiences, but its accuracy and authenticity is always questionable. Since the original image was black-and-white, we should use that image. Are we going to colorize every other image of the Holocaust, too? ` Sacxpert ( talk) 05:32, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Kiew_Babyn_Yar_7_Bild_008-005
in the collection
K.e.coffman linked in this thread also isn't an exact representation of the massacre itself, but appears to be in the more immediate aftermath of the massacre (i. e. before the Nazis undermined the wall of the ravine).
File:Massacre de Babi Yar.jpg is a more clear depiction of actual shootings at Babyn Yar, but it was apparently taken in 1942, after the initial 1941 massacre. I'm not sure which photograph we should use, but I'd be most in favor of using Kiew_Babyn_Yar_7_Bild_008-005
.
CJ-Moki (
talk)
06:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)![]() | This
edit request to
Babi Yar has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Macarter85 ( talk) 14:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
References
Spector
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).I added this part in the article [16] but I think a new section is needed. Maybe "Legacy" or "Controversies"? Mhorg ( talk) 16:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) - 🔥 𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 00:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
Babi Yar → Babyn Yar – Babyn Yar is located in Ukraine, a country which in recent years and for obvious reasons has consistently sought to prioritize the use of Ukrainian for place names, rather than Russian. I note that Babyn Yar is located near Kyiv, and that Kyiv is the primary name for that page, not Kiev, which is a redirect. I therefore respectfully ask that this page be renamed to Babyn Yar, and Babi Yar be turned into a redirect. TallNapoleon ( talk) 23:56, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:Why do we have to acquiesce to the revisionism of Ukrainian nationalists - especially on articles such as this?!
Could we get a disambig or a hat note or w/e to distinguish these pls?!
I ended up here searching "Stanley Cup"!! 2601:19C:527F:7890:51D9:AAB7:D59A:68CC ( talk) 22:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)