![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on December 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on May 2, 2009. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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Should Object Converter and Mirror be counted as needing translation, as there is little if any text involved?
Wouldn't say so - they're just drag and drop things, no text at all.
There is no source for the BVE Trainsim Mobile. Please provide that information, as it is nowhere found on the official BVE website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.44.126 ( talk) 21:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
i) Anyone interested in adding some Developer hints in a Wikibook on BVE?
ii) BVE files are essentialy text... So any want to developa route in a Wiki fashion?
I would be very interested in someone describing using BVE via WINE. I haven't tried to use BVE 2 or BVE 4 via WINE. But openBVE is working in Linux without WINE. More info is on official web-page of openBVE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.85.207.106 ( talk) 19:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
In the external links area, I added some notable route websites, Midlandbve has added his route, which I don't beleive is notable until it is released. Tubechallenger 15:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You could have said RSR-UK wasn't notable prior to August 2001 (release of WJ-MKC). I assure you it was TC ;-).
I guess, but I'm talking about current times Tubechallenger 17:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with having http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk as an external link? They have routes of London Underground and I've tried them out b4, they're not spam!! I hope you replace that link. Herenthere 21:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Before adding any site into the external links, please make sure it follows Wikipedia:External links. And when adding a site, please don't shuffle your addition to the top of the list. Wikipedia is not an advertising service and dubious additions of that type will be swiftly removed. Pacific Coast Highway { talk • contribs} 01:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we remove the references/source tag since any information in this article is from a computer program/game, and since most of the info is from personal experience, the tag doesn't really fit...? -- Herenthere 22:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Although BVE is a japanese program and there exists routes and trains from all over the world, this site currently focuses heaviliy on UK stuff. I think that the image in the upper right isn't appropriate for the same reason. Additionally what's that "Screenshot of BVE 2. A Class 150 ... DOWNLOAD" all about? It's a work in progress in the screenshot and obviously an opportunity to directly download it. I therefore say this article is biased toward UK. Please work on that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.239.41 ( talk) 13:10, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
A new open source simulator called OpenBVE is currently under development here: http://openbve.zxq.net/, which attempts to have almost one to one compatibility with BVE routes, objects and trains. The current alpha release (0.3.0.2) already looks very promising. Should this be mentioned here? 84.163.167.142 ( talk) 15:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Due to the newer information now available about "openBVE" (Correct Spelling), the redirect from the search has been disabled to make a main article.
Bonanza123d ( talk) 18:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I have placed the advert tag on this page, it also needs WP:Reliable sources. Jezhotwells ( talk) 15:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
This article contains a large number of self-published sources and otherwise unreliable primary sources. According to Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines ( Wikipedia:V#SELF), references to internet forums and open wikis are largely unacceptable. This applies to references 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 12. Additionally, 4 of the 14 references are to the programmers' own webpage and must be considered unreliable. The other links seem to be content directories. As such, this article appears to be largely self-written by the fan community of the program and must be considered to advertise the program (see Wikipedia:NOT#SOAPBOX). I have tried to verify some information that is cited, including the occupation of Takashi Kojima (which is not mentioned in the citation given) and the suggestion that the program can only be legally downloaded from the website of the programmer (which is untrue as the Japanese version of the BVE 2 program is apparently hosted on www.vector.co.jp. 89.247.208.90 ( talk) 17:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
"openBVE is an independent attempt to create an open source version of BVE": According to Software versioning, a version is a sequential numbering of one program. From that, I conclude that one program cannot be a version of another program. The claim is not supported by citations given. "sparked mainly by the lack of progress on BVE by Mackoy": Not in the citations given. 89.247.240.236 ( talk) 09:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I cannot emphasize this more. This article does not comply with Wikipedia's content policy on verifiability, and Wikipedia's content guidelines on reliable sources. The issue is that this article contains many self-published sources originating from the fan community of this program.
In particular, Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 says that "articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", and that "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable."
Information in this article which does not comply with these policies/guilines are:
"More than 300 routes have been built by independent developers, simulating routes in Asia, North America, South America, and Europe" - Not third-party verifyable. The information originates from an open wiki directly affiliated with this project.
"This version supported Japanese safety systems such as ATS-S (ATS-SN), ATS-P and ATC, as well as partial support to British Rail's AWS. It had a fixed HUD on the right of the monitor, where the timetable, safety systems and time of the day was shown." - Not third-party verifyable. The information is if anything a self-advertisement cited from the project's homepage, but even the verification of that information fails because it's not mentioned on the cited page.
The whole "Creation of content" section cites from Google Translate, which is definately not a reliable source and a clear content policy violation. Additionally, the section is incomprehensible as it apparently targets users already familiar with BVE Trainsim creation of content methods.
Apparently, some editors seem to have a conflict of interest according to Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest. This guidelines says that "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for advertising or self-promotion, or a vanity press. As such, it should contain only material that complies with its content policies, and Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia first." The following editors, among others, do not comply with this, because they repeatedly try to advertise BVE Trainsim by including content cited from their own personal websites, by including information that is not cited at all, and by reverting edits that are made in accordance with the content policies:
User: Pacific Coast Highway (reverts edits made in accordance with content policies) User: Mbssbs (cites from personal websites) User: Eezypeazy (cites from a wiki directly involved with the project)
My suggestion is to get rid of all information that does not comply with the policies/guidelines, or alternatively, propose AfD due to lack of reliability. I strongly suggest that the problematic users don't attempt edit warring just because they don't want to adhere to the policies in favor of their self-promotion.
89.247.217.65 ( talk) 18:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
In order to follow this discussion more easily, it is worth noting that the ip addresses beginning 87.123 and 89.247 are all assigned to the same ISP. I assume that all the comments in this discussion, the previous deletion discussion, and the 11 edits made to the article whose ip addresses begin with these numbers are all made by the same person.
I have not made a contribution since the Afd discussion in early May. However, since no one else has tidied up the article, I have made some changes. Since I only downloaded BVE a few weeks ago in order to find out more about it, I don't think I am part of the fan base.
It was decided in May that the article will be kept. The question now is what it should contain. I have read the Self-published sources policy. I believe that basic information about any program such as release dates, versions, operating systems supported, obtained from the author's website is justified by the "about themselves" section. Also information about a version in development can only come from the author. I think the "future software" tag covers this.
If there was an English language version of the author's website (mackoy.cool.ne.jp) with support information, a users' forum and a list of useful links, then this Wikipedia article could be shorter and would need fewer references. However this is not the case. Since the program's website is Japanese, it seems reasonable for this English Wikipedia article to include an English language site that has translated the Japanese information. For this reason I have added trainsimcentral.co.uk to the reference section. The railforums.co.uk reference could be removed since Trainsimcentral links to the same information on Vista compatibility.
The Wired.com reference, which has been agreed as a reliable source, states: "There are hundreds of downloadable routes (found at various websites) that have been created by various users throughout the world." If this statement were included in the article as it is, it would soon attract a "weasel words" comment. The wiki.bve-routes and bve.cz sites provide the necessary detail. I understand the concerns about references to open wikis, however the article does not use any information or opinions from these references, only noting that they exist and have a certain number of links which can be easily verified.
As for the reviews. The Wired article is OK since it was the main justification for keeping the article.
The article from Simon Tonekham was added during the Afd debate as an additional reference to justify notability, however it is from a personal website, so it could go.
The rockpapershotgun article is more valuable. The website is run by 4 editors and has a forum with 1286 members. It is a uk registered company, runs a weekly podcast and its rated by Alexa Internet as the 34,147th most visited website with 1146 other sites linking to it. I would consider it a reliable source. Chris1515 ( talk) 20:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I mean to be constructive here. In other articles, it's most often easy to check whether an unsourced addition can be sourced or not - just go to the library, browse the internet, etc. In case of BVE Trainsim, the major problem is that there are no quality sources at all. The thewired and rockpapershotgun articles seem to be the only ones barely acceptable here, however, most parts of the page don't draw information from them, but from personal experience in either a) personal websites, b) open wikis, c) public forums, or d) via no citations at all. In order to improve Wikipedia, I would like to back up the information with sources, but given the fact that since the first AfD debate a few years ago, there have been no major improvements in finding sources, I need to conclude that there simply are no such sources. Please prove me wrong. If you can't, the best thing to do from my point of view would be to aggressively remove all unsourced material and potentially remove the unreliable ones, too - following Wikipedia's policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR in order to keep the encyclopedia free from unveriable personal experiences. 89.247.204.185 ( talk) 10:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
OpenBVE should not be part of the BVE Trainsim article it is a different program although some components are the same —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noobbucket ( talk • contribs)
OpenBVE should not be part of the BVE Trainsim article it is a different program although some components are the same , two diffrent people in the coding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noobbucket ( talk • contribs)
Split Proposal February 2010. Since the article OpenBVE has already been created using content from this article, I would suggest waiting to see what reaction the new article gets. There still needs to be a section on openBVE in this article. Chris1515 ( talk) 16:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
There have been several tags on this article since April/May 2009 including Clean Up, Expert, Self published. Since the article has been considerably re-written since then, these tags are probably no longer appropriate, so I have removed them. The Original Research tag was added in August 2009 and, looking at the discussions above, it seems that the main issue discussed on this talk page has been the references quoted in the article. I have, therefore, removed the general Article Issues tag and replaced it with a RefImprove tag. Chris1515 ( talk) 16:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
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![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on December 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on May 2, 2009. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Should Object Converter and Mirror be counted as needing translation, as there is little if any text involved?
Wouldn't say so - they're just drag and drop things, no text at all.
There is no source for the BVE Trainsim Mobile. Please provide that information, as it is nowhere found on the official BVE website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.44.126 ( talk) 21:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
i) Anyone interested in adding some Developer hints in a Wikibook on BVE?
ii) BVE files are essentialy text... So any want to developa route in a Wiki fashion?
I would be very interested in someone describing using BVE via WINE. I haven't tried to use BVE 2 or BVE 4 via WINE. But openBVE is working in Linux without WINE. More info is on official web-page of openBVE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.85.207.106 ( talk) 19:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
In the external links area, I added some notable route websites, Midlandbve has added his route, which I don't beleive is notable until it is released. Tubechallenger 15:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You could have said RSR-UK wasn't notable prior to August 2001 (release of WJ-MKC). I assure you it was TC ;-).
I guess, but I'm talking about current times Tubechallenger 17:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with having http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk as an external link? They have routes of London Underground and I've tried them out b4, they're not spam!! I hope you replace that link. Herenthere 21:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Before adding any site into the external links, please make sure it follows Wikipedia:External links. And when adding a site, please don't shuffle your addition to the top of the list. Wikipedia is not an advertising service and dubious additions of that type will be swiftly removed. Pacific Coast Highway { talk • contribs} 01:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we remove the references/source tag since any information in this article is from a computer program/game, and since most of the info is from personal experience, the tag doesn't really fit...? -- Herenthere 22:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Although BVE is a japanese program and there exists routes and trains from all over the world, this site currently focuses heaviliy on UK stuff. I think that the image in the upper right isn't appropriate for the same reason. Additionally what's that "Screenshot of BVE 2. A Class 150 ... DOWNLOAD" all about? It's a work in progress in the screenshot and obviously an opportunity to directly download it. I therefore say this article is biased toward UK. Please work on that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.239.41 ( talk) 13:10, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
A new open source simulator called OpenBVE is currently under development here: http://openbve.zxq.net/, which attempts to have almost one to one compatibility with BVE routes, objects and trains. The current alpha release (0.3.0.2) already looks very promising. Should this be mentioned here? 84.163.167.142 ( talk) 15:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Due to the newer information now available about "openBVE" (Correct Spelling), the redirect from the search has been disabled to make a main article.
Bonanza123d ( talk) 18:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I have placed the advert tag on this page, it also needs WP:Reliable sources. Jezhotwells ( talk) 15:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
This article contains a large number of self-published sources and otherwise unreliable primary sources. According to Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines ( Wikipedia:V#SELF), references to internet forums and open wikis are largely unacceptable. This applies to references 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, and 12. Additionally, 4 of the 14 references are to the programmers' own webpage and must be considered unreliable. The other links seem to be content directories. As such, this article appears to be largely self-written by the fan community of the program and must be considered to advertise the program (see Wikipedia:NOT#SOAPBOX). I have tried to verify some information that is cited, including the occupation of Takashi Kojima (which is not mentioned in the citation given) and the suggestion that the program can only be legally downloaded from the website of the programmer (which is untrue as the Japanese version of the BVE 2 program is apparently hosted on www.vector.co.jp. 89.247.208.90 ( talk) 17:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
"openBVE is an independent attempt to create an open source version of BVE": According to Software versioning, a version is a sequential numbering of one program. From that, I conclude that one program cannot be a version of another program. The claim is not supported by citations given. "sparked mainly by the lack of progress on BVE by Mackoy": Not in the citations given. 89.247.240.236 ( talk) 09:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I cannot emphasize this more. This article does not comply with Wikipedia's content policy on verifiability, and Wikipedia's content guidelines on reliable sources. The issue is that this article contains many self-published sources originating from the fan community of this program.
In particular, Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 says that "articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", and that "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media, whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, tweets etc., are largely not acceptable."
Information in this article which does not comply with these policies/guilines are:
"More than 300 routes have been built by independent developers, simulating routes in Asia, North America, South America, and Europe" - Not third-party verifyable. The information originates from an open wiki directly affiliated with this project.
"This version supported Japanese safety systems such as ATS-S (ATS-SN), ATS-P and ATC, as well as partial support to British Rail's AWS. It had a fixed HUD on the right of the monitor, where the timetable, safety systems and time of the day was shown." - Not third-party verifyable. The information is if anything a self-advertisement cited from the project's homepage, but even the verification of that information fails because it's not mentioned on the cited page.
The whole "Creation of content" section cites from Google Translate, which is definately not a reliable source and a clear content policy violation. Additionally, the section is incomprehensible as it apparently targets users already familiar with BVE Trainsim creation of content methods.
Apparently, some editors seem to have a conflict of interest according to Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest. This guidelines says that "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for advertising or self-promotion, or a vanity press. As such, it should contain only material that complies with its content policies, and Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia first." The following editors, among others, do not comply with this, because they repeatedly try to advertise BVE Trainsim by including content cited from their own personal websites, by including information that is not cited at all, and by reverting edits that are made in accordance with the content policies:
User: Pacific Coast Highway (reverts edits made in accordance with content policies) User: Mbssbs (cites from personal websites) User: Eezypeazy (cites from a wiki directly involved with the project)
My suggestion is to get rid of all information that does not comply with the policies/guidelines, or alternatively, propose AfD due to lack of reliability. I strongly suggest that the problematic users don't attempt edit warring just because they don't want to adhere to the policies in favor of their self-promotion.
89.247.217.65 ( talk) 18:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
In order to follow this discussion more easily, it is worth noting that the ip addresses beginning 87.123 and 89.247 are all assigned to the same ISP. I assume that all the comments in this discussion, the previous deletion discussion, and the 11 edits made to the article whose ip addresses begin with these numbers are all made by the same person.
I have not made a contribution since the Afd discussion in early May. However, since no one else has tidied up the article, I have made some changes. Since I only downloaded BVE a few weeks ago in order to find out more about it, I don't think I am part of the fan base.
It was decided in May that the article will be kept. The question now is what it should contain. I have read the Self-published sources policy. I believe that basic information about any program such as release dates, versions, operating systems supported, obtained from the author's website is justified by the "about themselves" section. Also information about a version in development can only come from the author. I think the "future software" tag covers this.
If there was an English language version of the author's website (mackoy.cool.ne.jp) with support information, a users' forum and a list of useful links, then this Wikipedia article could be shorter and would need fewer references. However this is not the case. Since the program's website is Japanese, it seems reasonable for this English Wikipedia article to include an English language site that has translated the Japanese information. For this reason I have added trainsimcentral.co.uk to the reference section. The railforums.co.uk reference could be removed since Trainsimcentral links to the same information on Vista compatibility.
The Wired.com reference, which has been agreed as a reliable source, states: "There are hundreds of downloadable routes (found at various websites) that have been created by various users throughout the world." If this statement were included in the article as it is, it would soon attract a "weasel words" comment. The wiki.bve-routes and bve.cz sites provide the necessary detail. I understand the concerns about references to open wikis, however the article does not use any information or opinions from these references, only noting that they exist and have a certain number of links which can be easily verified.
As for the reviews. The Wired article is OK since it was the main justification for keeping the article.
The article from Simon Tonekham was added during the Afd debate as an additional reference to justify notability, however it is from a personal website, so it could go.
The rockpapershotgun article is more valuable. The website is run by 4 editors and has a forum with 1286 members. It is a uk registered company, runs a weekly podcast and its rated by Alexa Internet as the 34,147th most visited website with 1146 other sites linking to it. I would consider it a reliable source. Chris1515 ( talk) 20:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I mean to be constructive here. In other articles, it's most often easy to check whether an unsourced addition can be sourced or not - just go to the library, browse the internet, etc. In case of BVE Trainsim, the major problem is that there are no quality sources at all. The thewired and rockpapershotgun articles seem to be the only ones barely acceptable here, however, most parts of the page don't draw information from them, but from personal experience in either a) personal websites, b) open wikis, c) public forums, or d) via no citations at all. In order to improve Wikipedia, I would like to back up the information with sources, but given the fact that since the first AfD debate a few years ago, there have been no major improvements in finding sources, I need to conclude that there simply are no such sources. Please prove me wrong. If you can't, the best thing to do from my point of view would be to aggressively remove all unsourced material and potentially remove the unreliable ones, too - following Wikipedia's policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR in order to keep the encyclopedia free from unveriable personal experiences. 89.247.204.185 ( talk) 10:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
OpenBVE should not be part of the BVE Trainsim article it is a different program although some components are the same —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noobbucket ( talk • contribs)
OpenBVE should not be part of the BVE Trainsim article it is a different program although some components are the same , two diffrent people in the coding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noobbucket ( talk • contribs)
Split Proposal February 2010. Since the article OpenBVE has already been created using content from this article, I would suggest waiting to see what reaction the new article gets. There still needs to be a section on openBVE in this article. Chris1515 ( talk) 16:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
There have been several tags on this article since April/May 2009 including Clean Up, Expert, Self published. Since the article has been considerably re-written since then, these tags are probably no longer appropriate, so I have removed them. The Original Research tag was added in August 2009 and, looking at the discussions above, it seems that the main issue discussed on this talk page has been the references quoted in the article. I have, therefore, removed the general Article Issues tag and replaced it with a RefImprove tag. Chris1515 ( talk) 16:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on BVE Trainsim. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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