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![]() | On 12 June 2018, it was proposed that this article be moved from BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident to BSA Rocket 3 – Triumph Trident. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
28-AUG-2006: I made some small but significant edits to this page. The entire page really needs a good cleanup - there is too much that is either inaccurate or pure conjecture (not to mention numerous spelling mistakes). -Kim
It looks like some folk are not being particularly helpful with their edits. Let's see if we can get along and be a little more constructive. Kim Rowden 16:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
@Biker Biker : the guidelines for external links allow reference to a resource such as Triples Online. In fact, if they don't then the link to Ian Chadwick's page should also be removed - his page is far more of a personal project than Triples Online. The guidelines do not ban links to a site containing a Forum - they do suggest that a site that hosts Forums (Yahoo, Google etc) is "normally to be avoided". Triples Online meets none of the restrictions that Wikipedia lists for links that should be normally avoided. It is not a fansite, it does not contain unverifiable information, it does not contain malware, it is not a blog, it is not a personal page. It is a reference resource. Kim Rowden 16:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Taking your forum/fansite viewpoint would mean taking out half the links on Wikipedia! The guidelines only talk about forum sites that host forums - if you don't understand this concept then there is no point discussing this further, I will happily raise it as a formal issue with Wikipedia. As to being unique... Wikipedia will never have access to the factory records - so that makes Triples Online instantly unique. Come on. As to copyright: again, you are completely mistaken. There is no copyright on the brochures - they are in the public domain. The new owners of the Triumph and the BSA names did not take on the copyright for printed material when they bought out the old assets from NVT etc. I have had ongoing discussion with both of the new owners - where do you get your information? Please, let's focus on fact and not on second-hand hearsay.
I posted the first comment to this discussion/talk page back in 2006. I simply created a formal section heading for it. Kim Rowden 17:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
OK - so you clearly have little to no objectivity here. I respond to each of your unverifiable claims with fact and you pick another topic to argue about. Why do you put "Other stuff exists" in quotes? - I never used that term and nor has anyone else on this discussion page. This isn't a productive use of time and leaves inaccurate statements on Wikipedia - which already suffers from a bad name in many circles. I'll certainly consider your comments and maybe I'll come back with an official DR submission. Kim Rowden ( talk) 17:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Others reading this have in fact heard of "other stuff exists". There's a whole page on it: Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. If one's goal is to make Wikipedia better, then by all means, go and delete any links you find which violate the guidelines on external links. If an editor's only goal is to advertise his concern, the usual experience is a poor one. Nothing gets advertised and the editor goes away mad. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
And if triplesonline.com really is such an important site for the Rocket 3/Trident, then anybody with a computer is very likely to find it on their own. Since Wikipedia is not a directory, what actually is the purpose of advertising it? The site ranks highly at Google. Wikipedia is not suppressing vital knowledge by not linking to triplesonline.com. But going by Wikipedia's standards -- WP:RS and WP:ELNO, Triples Online doesn't meet the criteria. There are many paths to knowledge: finding anecdotes and personal experiences at club and forum sites can be valuable and you have to respect readers enough to believe they know how to find and read sites like that. But Wikipedia is a different path to knowledge: it's an encyclopedia that gives you summaries of what recognized authorizes say. It's a relatively conservative approach but that's what an encyclopedia is. Wikipedia doesn't not attack web sites that offer other paths to knowledge; Wikipedia does not censor these things from the world. How could it? Wikipedia does what Wikipedia does and your site is fine, the same as it ever was. Not harmed at all. But Wikipedia does not owe you or your site anything. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
(for those reading at home: Biker Biker removed a comment I had made. Check the History for this section) And I didn't make the claim about being uncivil or "lashing out" or calling someone a "troll" - you really can't go editing and removing stuff that has become part of the discussion. And why don't you respond to my questions about the Chadwick link? Kim Rowden ( talk) 19:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
As a member of the TR3OC and the Triumph Owners Club UK, I nor either of the secretaries/historians have ever heard of a possible number of greater than 30,000 models being produced. I am very sure on the records being poor, as my own Trident T150V was supposed to be (according to the official factory records) shipped to Sweden - where as, it ended up in South London! Interesting series of correspondence between myself and the Triumph Owners club historian, who took copies of all my machines original paper work. Who ever dabbed in 33,330 needs their head examined and to stop listening to their mates down the pub, and remember the numbers need back-up - particularly on Wiki as an encyclopaedia! Rgds, - Trident13 04:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Having a different frame and different engine positioning is not badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 10:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
As part of the Motorcycling WikiProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out I have created a category for British motorcycles. Please will you add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons British Motorcycles so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons - take your camera next time you go to a rally! Thanks Tony ( talk) 13:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all, "true" superbike is pure POV. The word "true" in any Wikipedia article merely conveys how strident a Wikipedia editor was in their opinion, and should be removed unless it can be specifically attributed to a reputable source. And it would help if the source can tell us where they're getting their definition of a "true" superbike.
A majority of sources credit the Honda CB750 as the vanguard of the 'superbike era'. It is a verifiable fact that the Rocket/Trident debuted 3 months before the CB750, but then the CB750 wasn't the very first bike to offer high performance. The reason a "new era" was recognized was because the Honda was the whole package: affordable, reliable, practical, well rounded. The Rocket/Trident had the performance, but was also flawed in many ways. And a majority of sources say so:
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Margie Siegal's opinion was that the Rocket 3/Trident "…was, in fact, the first Superbike of the Sixties". We should definitely quote this minority opinion, but we should give more weight to the majority of opinion, and explain why they take that position. WP:UNDUE helps clarify the Wikipedia policy here.
Hopefully readers new to the subject will understand both arguments and learn something about motorcycle history and culture in the story of why this bike was overshadowed by the CB750, rather than merely being given dogma as to what was the first "true" superbike. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to settle disputes once and for all. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The lead photo (T160 Triumph Trident 750cc motorcycle.jpg) of the yellow/white T160 has an OHC Triumph twin in the background. Presumably it is a prototype; can anyone identify it? Arrivisto ( talk) 18:08, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Does anyone know when the last Rocket 3 was made? Was it phased out like the T150V, just before the T160? And did the forward-slant engine of the T160 use any of the Rocket 3's crankcase components? Arrivisto ( talk) 14:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Not moved. See general agreement not to rename this article. While the forward slash or solidus can be somewhat vague in some cases, any vagueness is clarified in this article. In years past the slash was used in mainspace just as it is in other namespaces, in general for subpages. This is now not the case for mainspace, which no longer uses subpages, so there is no longer a technical issue in mainspace article titles with the solidus as there is in the titles of other-namespace pages. So with no clarity or technical issue to force a rename, the consensus seen in this debate appears to arrive at a viable conclusion. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! ( nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth put'r there 19:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident → BSA Rocket 3 – Triumph Trident – WP:SLASH slashes are to be avoided in mainspace. WP:SUBPAGE this should not appear like a subpage. -- 67.70.33.54 ( talk) 06:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 17:04, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
And the article Triumph Trident is about a completely different bike, completely different marque (also called Triumph, because of course it is), made much later, since 1990 with no BSA connection. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
We should put Wikipedia's need to be neat and orderly second, and make reality the first priority, even if that means a slightly awkward article title. The subject is unusual. We could change the dash to an and, or some other typographical convention, but there should only be one article, and the title should not pretend only one of thees two models is the primary topic. They are both the primary topic. I'm happy to accept that there is no good solution here. It happens. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:08, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 12 June 2018, it was proposed that this article be moved from BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident to BSA Rocket 3 – Triumph Trident. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
28-AUG-2006: I made some small but significant edits to this page. The entire page really needs a good cleanup - there is too much that is either inaccurate or pure conjecture (not to mention numerous spelling mistakes). -Kim
It looks like some folk are not being particularly helpful with their edits. Let's see if we can get along and be a little more constructive. Kim Rowden 16:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
@Biker Biker : the guidelines for external links allow reference to a resource such as Triples Online. In fact, if they don't then the link to Ian Chadwick's page should also be removed - his page is far more of a personal project than Triples Online. The guidelines do not ban links to a site containing a Forum - they do suggest that a site that hosts Forums (Yahoo, Google etc) is "normally to be avoided". Triples Online meets none of the restrictions that Wikipedia lists for links that should be normally avoided. It is not a fansite, it does not contain unverifiable information, it does not contain malware, it is not a blog, it is not a personal page. It is a reference resource. Kim Rowden 16:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Taking your forum/fansite viewpoint would mean taking out half the links on Wikipedia! The guidelines only talk about forum sites that host forums - if you don't understand this concept then there is no point discussing this further, I will happily raise it as a formal issue with Wikipedia. As to being unique... Wikipedia will never have access to the factory records - so that makes Triples Online instantly unique. Come on. As to copyright: again, you are completely mistaken. There is no copyright on the brochures - they are in the public domain. The new owners of the Triumph and the BSA names did not take on the copyright for printed material when they bought out the old assets from NVT etc. I have had ongoing discussion with both of the new owners - where do you get your information? Please, let's focus on fact and not on second-hand hearsay.
I posted the first comment to this discussion/talk page back in 2006. I simply created a formal section heading for it. Kim Rowden 17:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
OK - so you clearly have little to no objectivity here. I respond to each of your unverifiable claims with fact and you pick another topic to argue about. Why do you put "Other stuff exists" in quotes? - I never used that term and nor has anyone else on this discussion page. This isn't a productive use of time and leaves inaccurate statements on Wikipedia - which already suffers from a bad name in many circles. I'll certainly consider your comments and maybe I'll come back with an official DR submission. Kim Rowden ( talk) 17:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Others reading this have in fact heard of "other stuff exists". There's a whole page on it: Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. If one's goal is to make Wikipedia better, then by all means, go and delete any links you find which violate the guidelines on external links. If an editor's only goal is to advertise his concern, the usual experience is a poor one. Nothing gets advertised and the editor goes away mad. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 18:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
And if triplesonline.com really is such an important site for the Rocket 3/Trident, then anybody with a computer is very likely to find it on their own. Since Wikipedia is not a directory, what actually is the purpose of advertising it? The site ranks highly at Google. Wikipedia is not suppressing vital knowledge by not linking to triplesonline.com. But going by Wikipedia's standards -- WP:RS and WP:ELNO, Triples Online doesn't meet the criteria. There are many paths to knowledge: finding anecdotes and personal experiences at club and forum sites can be valuable and you have to respect readers enough to believe they know how to find and read sites like that. But Wikipedia is a different path to knowledge: it's an encyclopedia that gives you summaries of what recognized authorizes say. It's a relatively conservative approach but that's what an encyclopedia is. Wikipedia doesn't not attack web sites that offer other paths to knowledge; Wikipedia does not censor these things from the world. How could it? Wikipedia does what Wikipedia does and your site is fine, the same as it ever was. Not harmed at all. But Wikipedia does not owe you or your site anything. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 20:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
(for those reading at home: Biker Biker removed a comment I had made. Check the History for this section) And I didn't make the claim about being uncivil or "lashing out" or calling someone a "troll" - you really can't go editing and removing stuff that has become part of the discussion. And why don't you respond to my questions about the Chadwick link? Kim Rowden ( talk) 19:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
As a member of the TR3OC and the Triumph Owners Club UK, I nor either of the secretaries/historians have ever heard of a possible number of greater than 30,000 models being produced. I am very sure on the records being poor, as my own Trident T150V was supposed to be (according to the official factory records) shipped to Sweden - where as, it ended up in South London! Interesting series of correspondence between myself and the Triumph Owners club historian, who took copies of all my machines original paper work. Who ever dabbed in 33,330 needs their head examined and to stop listening to their mates down the pub, and remember the numbers need back-up - particularly on Wiki as an encyclopaedia! Rgds, - Trident13 04:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Having a different frame and different engine positioning is not badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 10:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
As part of the Motorcycling WikiProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out I have created a category for British motorcycles. Please will you add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons British Motorcycles so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons - take your camera next time you go to a rally! Thanks Tony ( talk) 13:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all, "true" superbike is pure POV. The word "true" in any Wikipedia article merely conveys how strident a Wikipedia editor was in their opinion, and should be removed unless it can be specifically attributed to a reputable source. And it would help if the source can tell us where they're getting their definition of a "true" superbike.
A majority of sources credit the Honda CB750 as the vanguard of the 'superbike era'. It is a verifiable fact that the Rocket/Trident debuted 3 months before the CB750, but then the CB750 wasn't the very first bike to offer high performance. The reason a "new era" was recognized was because the Honda was the whole package: affordable, reliable, practical, well rounded. The Rocket/Trident had the performance, but was also flawed in many ways. And a majority of sources say so:
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Margie Siegal's opinion was that the Rocket 3/Trident "…was, in fact, the first Superbike of the Sixties". We should definitely quote this minority opinion, but we should give more weight to the majority of opinion, and explain why they take that position. WP:UNDUE helps clarify the Wikipedia policy here.
Hopefully readers new to the subject will understand both arguments and learn something about motorcycle history and culture in the story of why this bike was overshadowed by the CB750, rather than merely being given dogma as to what was the first "true" superbike. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to settle disputes once and for all. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 19:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
The lead photo (T160 Triumph Trident 750cc motorcycle.jpg) of the yellow/white T160 has an OHC Triumph twin in the background. Presumably it is a prototype; can anyone identify it? Arrivisto ( talk) 18:08, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:33, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone know when the last Rocket 3 was made? Was it phased out like the T150V, just before the T160? And did the forward-slant engine of the T160 use any of the Rocket 3's crankcase components? Arrivisto ( talk) 14:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Not moved. See general agreement not to rename this article. While the forward slash or solidus can be somewhat vague in some cases, any vagueness is clarified in this article. In years past the slash was used in mainspace just as it is in other namespaces, in general for subpages. This is now not the case for mainspace, which no longer uses subpages, so there is no longer a technical issue in mainspace article titles with the solidus as there is in the titles of other-namespace pages. So with no clarity or technical issue to force a rename, the consensus seen in this debate appears to arrive at a viable conclusion. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! ( nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth put'r there 19:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident → BSA Rocket 3 – Triumph Trident – WP:SLASH slashes are to be avoided in mainspace. WP:SUBPAGE this should not appear like a subpage. -- 67.70.33.54 ( talk) 06:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 17:04, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
And the article Triumph Trident is about a completely different bike, completely different marque (also called Triumph, because of course it is), made much later, since 1990 with no BSA connection. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 02:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
We should put Wikipedia's need to be neat and orderly second, and make reality the first priority, even if that means a slightly awkward article title. The subject is unusual. We could change the dash to an and, or some other typographical convention, but there should only be one article, and the title should not pretend only one of thees two models is the primary topic. They are both the primary topic. I'm happy to accept that there is no good solution here. It happens. -- Dennis Bratland ( talk) 00:08, 21 June 2018 (UTC)