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![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
December 6, 2006. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that in
1943
British Overseas Airways Corporation Flight 777 was shot down by
German
Junkers Ju 88s, killing actor
Leslie Howard and leading to speculation that it was an attempt to
assassinate
Winston Churchill? | |||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on June 1, 2007, June 1, 2008, June 1, 2009, June 1, 2010, June 1, 2013, and June 1, 2018. |
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![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Nice job editors. This is a great "new" article. jengod 00:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
a short sunderland shooting down 6 ju88s deserves a page of its' own. Midnite lamp 17:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The photo is of a bomber variant. Can we find a decent picture of a fighter variant, or ideally establish the type involved in the attack? Cyclopaedic ( talk) 16:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Was this the same DC-3 carrying the P-38 dive flaps? Trekphiler ( talk) 06:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed the paragraph on speculation about spies on the plane. The information is still in the introduction section. It was also only one sentence long. Tc.bongers ( talk) 03:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I suggest merging Kenneth Stonehouse here. This journalist fails WP:BIO on his own, and is chiefly mentioned as one of the victims of this flight. I redirected the article here, but that was opposed, so I suggest merging anything worth keeping and then redirecting it here. Fram ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The location where flight 777 was attacked is described as 46.54N, 09.37W. How is this to be read? In degrees (with decimal point) converts to 46° 32' 24"N and 009° 22' 12"W. Or should it be read to be 46° 54' 00"N and 009° 37' 00"W? Flyingd ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC).
Flyingd, that's really taking initiative! I think you are setting the standard a little to high for the rest of Wikipedia editors :) David Straub ( talk) 20:55, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
For a time it was claimed that the first wife of actor Raymond Burr was killed on this flight. However it is now believed that there was no such person. If we are to mention her at all, I think it is relevant to mention that she is believe to be an invention, and if we mention this it is also relevant to explain why she is an invention. Any comments? PatGallacher ( talk) 15:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised that this claim still appears on the page in the form that it does, given that a) no-one called "Annette Sutherland Burr" was on Flight 777, and b) it now seems widely acknowledged that "Annette Sutherland Burr" never even existed. If we needed more proof, can we consider the fact that - as we would expect - all the passengers on Flight 777 are listed on the register of Civilian War Dead maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, viz:
In contrast, there is no trace of an "Annette Sutherland" or an "Annette Sutherland Burr" on the register at all. It's important to note that the British government paid conpensation to the families of people killed due to "war causes," hence very detailed records of civilian deaths were made and kept. Suffice to say, The Times contains no trace of any other BOAC or other air liner being shot down or even lost by accident in the same area at the same time, nor of the putative Mrs Burr under her married or maiden name, either previously or subsequently. Nick Cooper ( talk) 13:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Just to save anybody looking up passengers for errant actors wifes:
MilborneOne ( talk) 19:51, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Since the book was published in 1957 and described the incident that happened on June 1st, 1943, it cannot possibly be the same Ian Colvin which it links to in the article. That Ian Colvin is said to have passed away already in 1939. Or is that a mistake? At least one additional source provides the same year of death. So which Ian Colvin wrote the book? Ophirbaer ( talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
In Neitzel & Welzer Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben, there is a partial protocol of a conversation one Heinz Dock had when in British captivity on July 17, 1943. He was a Gruppe V/KG40 airman involved in the downing of BOAC 777 and refutes a) the assumption that the shootdown was an accident (ie instead of forcing a landing) but just as well b) that the German aircrews were ordered to intercept BOAC 777 (instead of it being a target-of-opportunity). Dock was a navigator/observer aboard Ju 88 C-6 F8+NZ (W.Nr. 360078) of 15/V/KG40 (three-crew fighter version - pilot: Georg Frassek, radioman: Helmut Hinze) when it was shot down July 12, 1943 by Whitley BD681; the crew was taken captive by a Royal Navy craft [1]. I have no data on Dock's role during the BOAC 777 shootdown at hand; in earlier Luftwaffe bombers, the navigator/observer was a fully qualified pilot (and indeed often the plane's commander) and thus could change roles between missions, but when the Ju 88 was introduced, cross-training was reduced and the navigator/observer was usually just that (see below for significance).
"We shot down four civilian airliners." Co-captive Heil asks: "Were they armed?" - "Nope." - "Why did you shoot them down?" - "What came in front of our guns was shot down. [gives details of BOAC 777 and how the pilots took evasive action] Then one [German plane] was at his 6 o'clock, then another. Then, we very calmly and matter-of-factly squeezed the trigger [laughs]" - "Did he [ie the plane] go down?" - "Of course, man." - "And the others [ie the passengers] bailed out?" - "Nope. They were all dead."
Dock also states that he only learned about Howard's presence aboard BOAC 777 from UK radio news: "Also aboard was a famous English movie actor, Leslie Howard. [We know that b]ecause the English radio reported it that evening."
It is obvious that at least Dock had no foreknowledge of BOAC 777 until they happened across it and only learned of its passengers post facto, but also that Gruppe V considered civilian aircraft legitimate targets. The latter fact is very important, because the Dock-Heil conversation took place soon after the incident under British surveillance, of which the prisoners were, however, not aware. Dock incriminates himself by being "trigger-happy", yet makes no mention of an order to intentionally target BOAC 777; thus, if such an order did exist at all, it was not widely known to the German aircrews. By contrast, Hintze's claim was made "decades after the war ended" in a conscious interview situation; almost certainly, Hintze was lying in an attempt to exonerate his unit from this war crime.
The "one [...], then another [...] we very calmly and matter-of-factly squeezed the trigger" speaks volumes about the general attitude within Gruppe V regarding the incident. V/KG40 used Ju 88 C-6, whose offensive weaponry was not controlled by the navigator/observer but by the pilot. Thus, the claim that "all of the German pilots involved expressed regret" is refuted by Dock's testimony; at least one or two of the German pilots were nonchalant about if not actually boastful of their downing BOAC 777 shortly after the incident, regardless whether Dock was the "calm and matter-of-fact" pilot himself, or his statement refers to Frassek or whatever pilot Dock was assigned to during the BOAC 777 shootdown.
The source for the Dock-Heil conversation is given by Heitzel & Welzer as: "SRA 4212, 17. 7. 1943, TNA, WO 208/4130". Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 16:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Some more interesting reading including a (more extended) German POW conversation with one of the attackers: http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-shoot-down-of-leslie-howard/ Would it be worth to put this as an external link in the article? Flyingd ( talk) 02:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure why I never noticed this before, but there's a major contradiction in this section. It says (twice) that Churchill himself supported the theory that the Germans thought that he was aboard the plane -- and then supplies a direct quote from his memoir that says exactly the opposite: "The brutality of the Germans was only matched by the stupidity of their agents. It is difficult to understand how anyone could imagine that with all the resources of Great Britain at my disposal I should have booked a passage in an unarmed and unescorted plane from Lisbon and flown home in broad daylight." So, which is it? The article can't have it both ways. Someone more familiar with the source material than I should resolve this, one way or the other. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/ talk to me! 06:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
The article states: "In its 14 June 1943 issue, Time magazine carried a brief story on the downing of BOAC Flight 777. The most valuable information from that article was the details of the final radio broadcast from the Dutch pilot. "I am being followed by strange aircraft. Putting on best speed. ...we are being attacked. Cannon shells and tracers are going through the fuselage. Wave-hopping and doing my best."
Would the transmission not have come from the onboard wireless operator (van Brugge)? Flyingd ( talk) 17:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
See /info/en/?search=Talk:Leslie_Howard_%28actor%29#inconsistent_bump
According to information and online discussions in Dutch de Koning was not aboard during the flight of the first attack on the Ibis. Apparently (some?) Bristol-Lisbon flights were flown single-pilot. Flyingd ( talk) 13:06, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Someone wrote a note in the citations that according to Ian Colvin's book the Ibis was at Schiphol airport when the Germans invaded. On may 10th Germany invaded the Netherlands and bombed Schiphol airport. A Dutch aviation history site ( http://www.hdekker.info/DIVERSEN/Schiphol-KLM.htm ) contains a transcribed internal report made by Parmentier about the KLM aircraft at Schiphol at this date. In this report it list the aircraft that were damaged (some beyond repair) and a few that were still ready to fly. The PH-ALI Ibis was not listed. According to general information the Ibis had flown the day before (may 9th) to Shoreham on a scheduled service and was told to stay there by KLM on May 10th. One DC-3, the PH-ARZ Zilverreiger, did manage to escape from Schiphol to England on May 13th with Parmentier as captain. The flight was classified as governmental. Flyingd ( talk) 00:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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Can't seem to find a reason for why the plane was painted in a camouflage pattern. Very unwise given the unrest in the region. knoodelhed ( talk) 16:31, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
It was done to make the aircraft harder for the Germans to see. The Germans, whatever they may later have pretended, routinely attacked British civil flights as 'enemy'. During that summer of 1943, German Focke-Wulf 190s made multiple attempts to intercept BOAC Mosquitos on the Stockholm-Scotland route. (And Mosquitos, with their remarkable speed, were used precisely because of the danger of German interception.)
The Germans attacked Flight 777 just because it was there, and it was normal German procedure. The conspiracy theories are, like most conspiracy theories, a bit daft. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 21:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
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Some facts;
2A04:4A43:4A7F:EA3:0:0:56A5:DAE5 ( talk) 18:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
David Isby, "The Luftwaffe and the War at Sea" I could use. That maybe overkill. 2A04:4A43:4A7F:EA3:0:0:56A5:DAE5 ( talk) 10:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
December 6, 2006. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that in
1943
British Overseas Airways Corporation Flight 777 was shot down by
German
Junkers Ju 88s, killing actor
Leslie Howard and leading to speculation that it was an attempt to
assassinate
Winston Churchill? | |||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on June 1, 2007, June 1, 2008, June 1, 2009, June 1, 2010, June 1, 2013, and June 1, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Lilzelayaa.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 15:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Nice job editors. This is a great "new" article. jengod 00:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
a short sunderland shooting down 6 ju88s deserves a page of its' own. Midnite lamp 17:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The photo is of a bomber variant. Can we find a decent picture of a fighter variant, or ideally establish the type involved in the attack? Cyclopaedic ( talk) 16:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Was this the same DC-3 carrying the P-38 dive flaps? Trekphiler ( talk) 06:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I removed the paragraph on speculation about spies on the plane. The information is still in the introduction section. It was also only one sentence long. Tc.bongers ( talk) 03:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I suggest merging Kenneth Stonehouse here. This journalist fails WP:BIO on his own, and is chiefly mentioned as one of the victims of this flight. I redirected the article here, but that was opposed, so I suggest merging anything worth keeping and then redirecting it here. Fram ( talk) 15:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
The location where flight 777 was attacked is described as 46.54N, 09.37W. How is this to be read? In degrees (with decimal point) converts to 46° 32' 24"N and 009° 22' 12"W. Or should it be read to be 46° 54' 00"N and 009° 37' 00"W? Flyingd ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:19, 17 May 2010 (UTC).
Flyingd, that's really taking initiative! I think you are setting the standard a little to high for the rest of Wikipedia editors :) David Straub ( talk) 20:55, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
For a time it was claimed that the first wife of actor Raymond Burr was killed on this flight. However it is now believed that there was no such person. If we are to mention her at all, I think it is relevant to mention that she is believe to be an invention, and if we mention this it is also relevant to explain why she is an invention. Any comments? PatGallacher ( talk) 15:27, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised that this claim still appears on the page in the form that it does, given that a) no-one called "Annette Sutherland Burr" was on Flight 777, and b) it now seems widely acknowledged that "Annette Sutherland Burr" never even existed. If we needed more proof, can we consider the fact that - as we would expect - all the passengers on Flight 777 are listed on the register of Civilian War Dead maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, viz:
In contrast, there is no trace of an "Annette Sutherland" or an "Annette Sutherland Burr" on the register at all. It's important to note that the British government paid conpensation to the families of people killed due to "war causes," hence very detailed records of civilian deaths were made and kept. Suffice to say, The Times contains no trace of any other BOAC or other air liner being shot down or even lost by accident in the same area at the same time, nor of the putative Mrs Burr under her married or maiden name, either previously or subsequently. Nick Cooper ( talk) 13:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Just to save anybody looking up passengers for errant actors wifes:
MilborneOne ( talk) 19:51, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Since the book was published in 1957 and described the incident that happened on June 1st, 1943, it cannot possibly be the same Ian Colvin which it links to in the article. That Ian Colvin is said to have passed away already in 1939. Or is that a mistake? At least one additional source provides the same year of death. So which Ian Colvin wrote the book? Ophirbaer ( talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
In Neitzel & Welzer Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben, there is a partial protocol of a conversation one Heinz Dock had when in British captivity on July 17, 1943. He was a Gruppe V/KG40 airman involved in the downing of BOAC 777 and refutes a) the assumption that the shootdown was an accident (ie instead of forcing a landing) but just as well b) that the German aircrews were ordered to intercept BOAC 777 (instead of it being a target-of-opportunity). Dock was a navigator/observer aboard Ju 88 C-6 F8+NZ (W.Nr. 360078) of 15/V/KG40 (three-crew fighter version - pilot: Georg Frassek, radioman: Helmut Hinze) when it was shot down July 12, 1943 by Whitley BD681; the crew was taken captive by a Royal Navy craft [1]. I have no data on Dock's role during the BOAC 777 shootdown at hand; in earlier Luftwaffe bombers, the navigator/observer was a fully qualified pilot (and indeed often the plane's commander) and thus could change roles between missions, but when the Ju 88 was introduced, cross-training was reduced and the navigator/observer was usually just that (see below for significance).
"We shot down four civilian airliners." Co-captive Heil asks: "Were they armed?" - "Nope." - "Why did you shoot them down?" - "What came in front of our guns was shot down. [gives details of BOAC 777 and how the pilots took evasive action] Then one [German plane] was at his 6 o'clock, then another. Then, we very calmly and matter-of-factly squeezed the trigger [laughs]" - "Did he [ie the plane] go down?" - "Of course, man." - "And the others [ie the passengers] bailed out?" - "Nope. They were all dead."
Dock also states that he only learned about Howard's presence aboard BOAC 777 from UK radio news: "Also aboard was a famous English movie actor, Leslie Howard. [We know that b]ecause the English radio reported it that evening."
It is obvious that at least Dock had no foreknowledge of BOAC 777 until they happened across it and only learned of its passengers post facto, but also that Gruppe V considered civilian aircraft legitimate targets. The latter fact is very important, because the Dock-Heil conversation took place soon after the incident under British surveillance, of which the prisoners were, however, not aware. Dock incriminates himself by being "trigger-happy", yet makes no mention of an order to intentionally target BOAC 777; thus, if such an order did exist at all, it was not widely known to the German aircrews. By contrast, Hintze's claim was made "decades after the war ended" in a conscious interview situation; almost certainly, Hintze was lying in an attempt to exonerate his unit from this war crime.
The "one [...], then another [...] we very calmly and matter-of-factly squeezed the trigger" speaks volumes about the general attitude within Gruppe V regarding the incident. V/KG40 used Ju 88 C-6, whose offensive weaponry was not controlled by the navigator/observer but by the pilot. Thus, the claim that "all of the German pilots involved expressed regret" is refuted by Dock's testimony; at least one or two of the German pilots were nonchalant about if not actually boastful of their downing BOAC 777 shortly after the incident, regardless whether Dock was the "calm and matter-of-fact" pilot himself, or his statement refers to Frassek or whatever pilot Dock was assigned to during the BOAC 777 shootdown.
The source for the Dock-Heil conversation is given by Heitzel & Welzer as: "SRA 4212, 17. 7. 1943, TNA, WO 208/4130". Dysmorodrepanis ( talk) 16:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Some more interesting reading including a (more extended) German POW conversation with one of the attackers: http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-shoot-down-of-leslie-howard/ Would it be worth to put this as an external link in the article? Flyingd ( talk) 02:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure why I never noticed this before, but there's a major contradiction in this section. It says (twice) that Churchill himself supported the theory that the Germans thought that he was aboard the plane -- and then supplies a direct quote from his memoir that says exactly the opposite: "The brutality of the Germans was only matched by the stupidity of their agents. It is difficult to understand how anyone could imagine that with all the resources of Great Britain at my disposal I should have booked a passage in an unarmed and unescorted plane from Lisbon and flown home in broad daylight." So, which is it? The article can't have it both ways. Someone more familiar with the source material than I should resolve this, one way or the other. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/ talk to me! 06:35, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
The article states: "In its 14 June 1943 issue, Time magazine carried a brief story on the downing of BOAC Flight 777. The most valuable information from that article was the details of the final radio broadcast from the Dutch pilot. "I am being followed by strange aircraft. Putting on best speed. ...we are being attacked. Cannon shells and tracers are going through the fuselage. Wave-hopping and doing my best."
Would the transmission not have come from the onboard wireless operator (van Brugge)? Flyingd ( talk) 17:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
See /info/en/?search=Talk:Leslie_Howard_%28actor%29#inconsistent_bump
According to information and online discussions in Dutch de Koning was not aboard during the flight of the first attack on the Ibis. Apparently (some?) Bristol-Lisbon flights were flown single-pilot. Flyingd ( talk) 13:06, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Someone wrote a note in the citations that according to Ian Colvin's book the Ibis was at Schiphol airport when the Germans invaded. On may 10th Germany invaded the Netherlands and bombed Schiphol airport. A Dutch aviation history site ( http://www.hdekker.info/DIVERSEN/Schiphol-KLM.htm ) contains a transcribed internal report made by Parmentier about the KLM aircraft at Schiphol at this date. In this report it list the aircraft that were damaged (some beyond repair) and a few that were still ready to fly. The PH-ALI Ibis was not listed. According to general information the Ibis had flown the day before (may 9th) to Shoreham on a scheduled service and was told to stay there by KLM on May 10th. One DC-3, the PH-ARZ Zilverreiger, did manage to escape from Schiphol to England on May 13th with Parmentier as captain. The flight was classified as governmental. Flyingd ( talk) 00:08, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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Can't seem to find a reason for why the plane was painted in a camouflage pattern. Very unwise given the unrest in the region. knoodelhed ( talk) 16:31, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
It was done to make the aircraft harder for the Germans to see. The Germans, whatever they may later have pretended, routinely attacked British civil flights as 'enemy'. During that summer of 1943, German Focke-Wulf 190s made multiple attempts to intercept BOAC Mosquitos on the Stockholm-Scotland route. (And Mosquitos, with their remarkable speed, were used precisely because of the danger of German interception.)
The Germans attacked Flight 777 just because it was there, and it was normal German procedure. The conspiracy theories are, like most conspiracy theories, a bit daft. Khamba Tendal ( talk) 21:23, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on BOAC Flight 777. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:52, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:51, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Some facts;
2A04:4A43:4A7F:EA3:0:0:56A5:DAE5 ( talk) 18:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
David Isby, "The Luftwaffe and the War at Sea" I could use. That maybe overkill. 2A04:4A43:4A7F:EA3:0:0:56A5:DAE5 ( talk) 10:32, 13 February 2021 (UTC)