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Proposal: Please provide proper UTF-8 letter as well. -- Keichwa 17:10, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Why is this page protected? What disputes need resolution ? Refdoc 21:13, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What's the matter with this article? any problems over there? Hope that the dispute will be solved soon. On this moment too, if you want to know me more please look at my user:Kolomonggo. I can be found in English, Indonesian and Javanese Wikipedia.
Salam,
Hope this is not also seen as vandalism. I have put the quote from the Persian encyclopedia to the bottom of the article. It is clear, he is very improtant as an academic, but common language is use is as the introduction describes. I have actually expanded upon this. I believe that the quote is more an expression of the professors' wish to be perfectly accurate and split the hair down the middle than actual use. At least in my experience Iranian Azeri's will introduce themselves as Iranian Turks, Azeri Turks, Azeris, Turkish speaker (you know our Turkish, not Istanbul...) etc. whatever, certainly not with the fine precision of the encyclopedia. And there is a view that use defines correctness in languages rather than vice versa. I did some other clarifications + editing, too, but I think this is teh improtant one. What remains in dispute to remove that notice ? Refdoc 21:35, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I would say I disagree with the last revert Roozbeh - the term might be offensive to some, to others it means a lot - at least considering the heat of the revert wars across the Azerbaijan spectrum of articles here on wikipedia. SO NPOV would be to include something like "a region which some prefer to call South Azarbaijan" or something like this. I think it is easy to loose sight for the relevant when engaging with trolls and vandals like our aphasic anonymous. But the relvant is to include all valid POVs to come to some thing like NPOV. Even if made by a troll a point may be valid. . Apart from the above, the term used in by the Iranian embassy in Ottawa Canada is "South Azarbaijan" [2]... :-) Refdoc 13:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
a vs e - I would think this is making a political mountain out of a transliterational molehill. apart from this - The region (loosely corresponding to the four ostans) is the southern part of the region loosely called 'Azarbaijan/Azerbeycan' (whatever..), the north of which was lost to Russia during the 19th century, formed part of the Soviet Union and eventually became an independent state, while the southern areas remained integral part of Persian empire/Iran until today, despite a short period of 'independence' under Soviet 'protection' in 1945/46. The difficulty for this article starts with some people hijacking an initially innocent and loosely defined geographic description in order to form a South/North Korea image in people's mind, while others try to use the term in its original sense and again others develop to latter, geographic use a politically motivated aversion. Sounds to me like the recipe for NPOV disaster - which i think is still avertable by careful formulation. And wrt the {{South Azerbaijan]] article here in Wikipedia - this should be our next joint project for NPOVfying and clearing. Refdoc 14:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And everyday I learn something new.... Adam Olearius, German traveller and secretary to the Holsteinian ambassador to the Persian Shah in Isfahan in the 17th century crossed the 'Arixan' river coming from 'Derbent' and the town and region of Shemakha (both today RoA) to Ardebil in 'Aterbeighdan'... Some of his writings are published in English [4]. Further, the Azerbaijanian ministry for tourism appears to be quite clear that the old name of the region is Aran [5].
So what do we make of this ? Refdoc 15:05, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Turk people of Iran say their language "Turki" or "Turku" & Azeri isn't valid.
Hi,
This is a need of consistency between Wikimedia projects. This language is called Azeri on Wiktionary. Yann 12:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, I generally highly respect your contributions, but i think this one is somewhat out of place in this article, given that the article is about the Turkic Azerbaijani language and not so much about the linguistic history of the people living in Republic of Azerbaijan or Iranian Azerbaijan. Refdoc 23:11, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, I am not saying this. I also did not delete anything as far as I am aware. I will just look at the diffs again. My last edits were late in the night and i might have messed things up. Anyway, I just think, as it is, the bit about the history has several non-sequiturs and is more about the history of language succession in the area and language(s) with that name than about the histoy of what we call nowadays Azari or Azerbaijani language. Refdoc 10:26, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Right I did a few diffs e.g. [6]. It is quite clear that some people delete contributions here on the talk page. This is actually vandalism just as messing with the article itself is. I would suggets that you (whoever you are) are a bit more respectful towards other people's contributions. Refdoc 10:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This sounds ok. Refdoc 22:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Refdoc's original point. English language doesn't devote multiple paragraphs to Brythonic (let alone Native American languages), nor French language to Gaulish; an in-depth account of the pre-Turkic language of Azerbaijan belongs in its own article, not here. And incidentally, one that completely neglects Udi and ancient Albanian can certainly not be considered complete. - Mustafaa 00:04, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
id:Bahasa Azeri - Muijz 00:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We can watch Azerbaijani tv broadcast in Turkey. I can completely understand the speaking. I'm sure that it is same for anybody in Turkey or Azerbaycan. and with a one week quick course they will be master on the two dialect. not a different language.
Zereshk I think it's your problem because I am also from Turkey and I can easily understand Azerbaijani, the Azerbaijan National Television AzTv1 sometimes broadcasts movies in Istanbul dialect, if Azerbaijanis are not capable of understanding "Turkî Istanbulî" why would the Azerbaijan national TV broadcast movies in Istanbul dialect? I also have a few Azerbaijani (north) friends and be sure that we understand each very well.
1 week is not enough to master one of the languages, you are right azeris and turks understand each other perfectly, but in azerbaijan we have a different accent and a mixture with persian and russian language. so i think it would take more then 1 week, i think 1 month will be enough - Karabakh
Ethnologue.com writes that they speak they can understand each other and they do both speak Oghuz Turkish.
At the very least its an accent difference, Turkish speakers of Azerbaycan, South Azerbaycan-Iran, Iraq, Caucauses, Syria, Turkey, Balkans, Cyprus can fully understand each other.
I don't understand how they're considered different languages to each other?
I mean there is more difference between the accent of a Londoner and Geordy from Newcastle in North England than between these accents.
It should be highlighted that they can understand one-another and that the Turkish of the different countries who speak Oghuz Turkish isn't a different language.
Currently its not very clear, to someone who didn't know anything about this they'd think a totally different language was spoken which is incorrect.
The article is very misleading and can really confuse people.
For example, I was so shocked to realise and witness with my own eyes Azeri Turks and Turkey Turks speaking together perfectly understanding each other.
They show Azerbaijan Tv on Turkish Tv and vica-versa the same chanels are also broadcasted into Iran.
As a result of article's like this most people don't realise this and get a shock when they realise that they are not actually a different language.
A Turk from Turkey could easily go to Tabriz and have absolutely no difficultly with language, a Turk from Baku can go to Turkey and have absolutely no problems with communication.
The article doesn't explain this, Azeri Turks can communicate with Bulgarian and other Balkan Turks, with Cypriot Turks etc do they all speak Azerbaijani?
Something has to be done about this.
For example, in the Persian Language page, Dari-Tajik etc are all included as Persian which is strange since Tajik is not mutually intellegible to Persian speakers of Iran.
Why don't the mutually intelligible Turk languages create a merge as in total there are 120 million mutually intelligible speakers but due to the layout of the articles this isn't very clear.
-- Johnstevens5 02:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Azeri Turkish is perfectly understandalbe to Turkish speakers of the Caucuses, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Cyprus, the Balkans and the new wave of Turkish immigrants in Europe.
Why can't this be mentioned?
The language of the Azeri TUrks is one which is mutually intelligible by rouhgly 120 million people.
In the Persian Language article they even put Tajik in as if its Persian when has major differences.
Now I'm not trying to include Ozbek or Uygur Turkish as the exact same language however the one's a mentioned above clearly are.
I think the page's should be merged or a mention made of this because its very important, to someone with no knowledge of this because of the misleading nature of this page they'd think it was a ommpletely different language only spoken and understood by 30 million.
Regards
-- 86.138.214.28 13:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
In those days, I first became aware that the people that we thought of as the Muslims of the Soviet Union spoke languages that were still closely related to the language of Turkey. We became very aware of this in 1990, with "Black January" in Azerbaijan, and suddenly the Turkish television stations were full of Azeris phoning in from houses in Baku, in a language that we could understand. It was astonishing. No one had been aware that that connection had lived on. One of the most interesting plane trips I took was the first-ever direct flight between Istanbul and Baku.
Sons of the Conquerors: The Rise of the Turkic World Hugh Pope
REview
http://www.cceia.org/viewMedia.php/prmID/5163
Ethnologue.com
Azerbaijani, South = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani, North = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish, Turkey = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern,
Turkish in Balkans = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Iraq = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Syria = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Caucauses = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Europe = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern,
Would you like me to show you Turkish Television listings and show the Azeri Turkish shows? the Azeri Turk interviews?
OPen your eyes to the reality, they completely understand each other.
It should be included that Azeri Turks language is spoken and understood by 120 million people!
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 14:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
For example, if we called American a language, Australlian a language and English a language and said they were all a different language it would be really confusing as they can all understand and communicate with each other, nobody could surely state that these are different languages.
The language in Azerbaycan and Turkey isn't actually a different language and in those countries in their language they refer to themselves as Turks and their language as Turki/Turkce, its common knowledge to the people of the region that their language is the same.
Another example is a commongly used phrase by the president of Azerbaijan, he refers to Azerbaijan and Turkey as "Iki Dovlet Bir Millet", "two countries one nation", as does Turkmenistan.
I'm just trying to highlight this for non-Turkish speakers, it always comes as a shock and takes such a long time to explain to people that they understand each other.
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 14:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Because Azerbaijan is called Azerbaijan people think that the language must be Azerbaijani and that its somthing completely different to Turkish when infact it is Turkish and called as Turki/Turkce in their language among the people.
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 01:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Johnstevens5
I don't really understand why people make a problem of this! I was born in Europe, my grandfather was a Turkish immigrant who came to Europe in the 1960s. I can understand Azerbaijani TV shows. I can even read texts in Azerbaijani. And I am just 19 years old!!!
So what is this all about?
I can't understand why people don't accept the fact that Azerbaijani Turkish and Anatolian Turkish are the same language, but just a different accent or lets say a dialect but fully intelligible to each other.
On the contrary everybody accepts that (the mutually UNintelligible) Sorani and Kurmanji are the same language: Kurdish. They even accept that unintelligible Zaza and Gorani are a dialect of the Kurdish language.
And the people here are bullshitting (srry) that Azerbaijani and Turkish aren't the same!!!
They are considerd as different languages simply because they aren't situated in the same country, this is political not linsuistic. Why did Elçibey referred to the language as "Türk dili"???
Are the dialects of the English language mutually intelligible?
appen is nabbut bovver 'ist lad. that young man is always in trouble.
werst thew of te? where are you going?
ars garn yam I'm going home.
This template is strictly relavant with the article. Please see article and infoboxs for details about language and language family.
Regards. Must TC 09:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
There are several sources that have not been considered by this article, and one of the is from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia (GSE), which was the biggest encyclopedia in the world and the premier scholarly undertaking in the former USSR. Here's the link to the short specific article on Azerbaijani literature: [8] Also, here's the reproduction of the article, with the section presenting most interest in bold:
Азербайджанский язык, язык азери, язык азербайджанцев, живущих в Азербайджанской ССР, Грузинской ССР, Дагестанской АССР, Узбекской ССР, Туркменской ССР, Казахской ССР и УССР, а также в Иране и Ираке. На А. я. в СССР говорит около 2,94 млн. человек (1959; 3,6 млн. человек на начало 1965, оценка). А. я. относится к юго-западной ветви тюркских языков. Он восходит к языку огузских племён Центральной Азии 7-11 вв., который явился языком-предшественником для нескольких современных тюркских языков: А. я. и турецкого языка. В процессе развития эти языки изменились как в фонетической структуре, грамматическом строе, так и в словарном составе. В разговорном А. я. наблюдается значительное количество диалектов, которые объединяются в следующие группы: восточную (кубинский, дербенский, бакинский, шемахинский, муганский и ленкоранский); западную (казахский, карабахский, гянджинский и айрумский); северную (нухинский и закатало-кахский); южную (нахичеванский, ордубадский, тебризский диалекты и ереванский говор). Особые группы А. я. составляют диалекты: кашкайцев, авшарцев (Иран и Афганистан) и терекеме (Армянской ССР и Грузинской ССР). Литературный А. я. начал складываться с 11 в., современный литературный А. я. оформился в середине 19 в. на базе бакинского и шемахинского диалектов. Письменность до 1929 была на арабском алфавите, с 1929 по 1939 - на латинском и с 1939 - на основе русской графики. Лит.: Ширалиев М. А., К вопросу об изучении и классификации азербайджанских диалектов, "Изв. Азербайджанского филиала АН СССР", 1941 ,Ї 4; его же,. Изучение диалектов азербайджанского языка, "Изв. АН СССР. ОЛЯ", М., 1947, т. 6, в. 5; Дэмирчизадэ Э., Азэри эдэби дили Тарихи, Бакы, 1967; его же, Азэрбаjчан эдэби дили тарихи хуласэлэри. Бакы, 1938; Русско-азербайджанский словарь, под ред. Г., Гусейнова, т., 1 - 4, Б., 1940 - 46. Г. Г. Брянцева.
The bold text states the following in English: "Azerbaijani language ascends to the language of Oghuz tribes in Central Asia in 7-11 centuries, which was the predecessor of several modern Turkic languages: Azerbaijani language and Turkish language." Another quote: "Literary Azerbaijani language started to form since the 11th century, modern literary Azerbaijani language has formed in the middle of 19th century on the basis of Baku and Shemakha dialects". This of course differs from the current article, and we should thus update it.
There is a much lengthier article too, in the general article about Azerbaijan [9], and about Azerbaijani people [10], but that's for later. -- AdilBaguirov 05:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No where does the source cited say that it is the lingua franca amongst Kurds, Armenians, and Talysh so I removed it as it sounds like OR. I also shortened a sentence that had too many unnecessary words. Hajji Piruz 14:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I uploaded a photograph showing three alphabets used on tombstones of different ages at a cemetery near Baku. I feel that it is a nice illustration; but if for some reason it is deemed inappropriate, it can be removed. The placement is a little awkward since the "Latin alphabets" image is so long. Best, Eliezg 09:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I contacted ethnologue a while back on their data and asked them for their source. They said they could not find their source. "Ali, Thank you for noting this. We have made a correction which will appear in the next edition. The population we now give is 11,224,000 (2001 Johnstone and Mandryk). The Ethnologue site will show an update when the next edition is published in 2009. Best regards, Ray Gordon Ethnologue, Research and " Ray, I couldn't find where the 15th edition had any mention of 35% under Azerbaijani for Iran, or any percentage, for that matter. Can you figure out what his problem is? --Con "
Another user while back name Kiumars had contacted them independently also and they gave a similar response (their numbers on Iran does not add up to the population they put for Iran). Also recently another person who recently contacted them: [11]. "Dear Mazdak, Sorry we cannot help you further with this question. This information was posted by a previous editor, and it probably came from his personal communication with someone else, and was therefore not documented. Regards, Conrad Hurd".
Their numbers also do not add up. They say Irans population is:67,503,205 (which is close enough to CIA factbook). But then you add all of their statistics (some even from 1982) and you obtain a total of: 72,423,703 people. Which is short 4,920,498 people. I have the E-mails of my inquiry and their response. I can forward it to any user or admin if they so wish to look at it. Domari (1,338,271) is another big mistake by the site. There is not that many gypsy speakers in Iran. It could be at most 50,000. -- alidoostzadeh 14:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, the claim of Azeri being once considered to be the same as Turkish is controversial. Here is an early 19th century record from Aleksandr Bestuzhev:
"Ср. примечание А. А. Бестужева-Марлинского в рассказе «Красное покрывало»: «Татарский язык закавказского края отличается от турецкого, и с ним, как с французским в Европе, можно пройти из конца в конец всю Азию». Об этом подробнее см.: Михайлов М. С. К вопросу о занятиях Лермонтова «татарским» языком // Тюркологический сборник. Т. 1. М.; Л.: Изд-во АН СССР, 1951. С. 127—135" [12] Parishan ( talk) 08:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
It generally was not and is not considered a dialect of Turkish. Your sources do not state that, and neither does the majority of serious linguists. Yes, the language does go under Azerbaijani Turkish as well, but only because the words Turkish and Turkic in Azeri do not differ in spelling and pronunciation. Most scholars agree Azerbaijani is a language, regardless of how this fact might make some people feel. The mutual intelligibility and language continuum aspects are natural linguistic occurrences and are in no way proofs of two or more languages constituting one. I suggest you research those concepts before you start discussing linguistics. It is especially odd to hear such baseless claims from somebody who does not seem conversant in either of those languages. Consider this discussion over, if you do not have anything except OR and your-friend-from-Kars argument to operate with. Parishan ( talk) 06:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Parishan ( talk · contribs) created Image:Azerilanguage.png, which appears to have been revised by a freshly minded user Sehend ( talk · contribs) as Image:Azeri.Language.png.
When that new user added it to the article, it was reverted by Parishan, but it has come back again with a inflammatory edit summary. I am guessing that these different maps present different points of view; is there data/sources that supports each map? John Vandenberg ( talk) 09:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately Parishan several times tired to push her personal Kurdish dream about Kurdistan in his map about Iranian Azerbaijan. As a geographical/historian/researcher we should have neutal point of views. If you want to see where was/is historical Azerbaijan of Iran, you can read article of History of the name Azerbaijan. You will see several historical map of Atropatane (Iranian Azerbaijan). Especially look at maps , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia and zoom on borders between historical Azerbaijan and historical Kurdish inhabited area. John Vandenberg is right. Texas university created some contrary maps. Maps , iran_peoples, ethnocaucasus, Kurdish lands-1, Kurdish lands-2 seeing all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbajanis except south west part of it. Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province agree with that. But, unfortunately Texas university in maps 1 and [15] had a mistake and considered all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran as Kurdish inhabited areas which is wrong if we look at historical maps showing Azerbaijani-inhabited areas. If we average maps of Kurdish-inhabited area and compare it with ethnolinguistic map of Iran and Wikipedia article of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran , we will find that , iran_peoples map at the moment is most commonly used map. Unfortunately people which have sympathy about Kurdistan always refer to maps created by Kurdish nationalist. Iranian Azeris doesn’t have high feeling to separate from Iran as their economical situation is better than other ethnics in Iran. So, they didn’t care about above mentioned claim of Kurdish people for West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. To understand where azeris in Iran live look at maps ,1 , 2 , 3 and 4. These maps are similar to the map of texas university , iran_peoples map except high lands near Turkish-Iran border which there is no any cities on that area. South West of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran is Kurdish inhabited area of historical Iranian Azerbaijan (Atropatane) as you can see in historical map , Near_East-1835 and always belong to Iranian Azerbijan. In Map Iran_Azeri_people you can see Iranian Azerbaijanis are inhabited in 9 provinces of Iran. It is based on Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and maps , iran_peoples, [16] , [17] , [18] and [19]. I hope I could answer user John Vandenberg
User Irani74: Irani74, 5:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My answers to Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin
Ali doostzadeh claim that Iranica has no such maps, I think it is not good to attribute false materials to Encyclopedias. Although his reason to help Parishan to push a non-realistic map which is based on their dream about Kurdistan (Kurdish inhabited territories of five countries). First of all, we expect you, Ali doostzadeh, Sharishirin and Parishan, to be honest and accurate. NO BODY CLAIM IRANICA HAS SUCH A MAP. I SAID IRANICA SAYS, The Encyclopedia Iranica states that the geographic extent of Azeri-speaking people goes "well beyond the boundaries of West Azarbaijan", demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. If you are looking for historical borders between Iranian Azerbaijan and Kurdistan, you will find it in maps , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia and zoom on borders between historical Azerbaijan and historical Kurdish inhabited area. you can read article of History of the name Azerbaijan. You will see several historical maps of Atropatane (Iranian Azerbaijan). Referring to these historical maps, easily will come up that Ali doostzadeh , Sharishirinand Parishan reasons have no historical bases. [User: Ali doostzadeh| Ali doostzadeh]] you are right it is not good to attribute false materials to Encyclopedias, so judge yourself which map is false your map or , Near_East-1835 map. The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. You know that your map should not be contradicted of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. By your map what you want to say, nobody is Azeri in cities of Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). Any Iranian/Azeris/kurd knows they are cities with majority Azeris and minority Kurdish people. If you look at Wikipedia article about Kurdistan you will see that above mentioned cities are not in Kurdistan maps. See also texas university maps Kurdish lands-1 and Kurdish lands-2. You will find that all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbaijanis except south west part of it. John Vandenberg is right. Texas University created some contrary maps. 1 and [20] had a mistake and considered all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran as Kurdish inhabited areas which is wrong if we look at historical maps showing Azerbaijani-inhabited areas. Parishan and Ali doostzadeh favorite map is based on these misleading maps and have contrary with historical maps of Iranian Azerbaijan ( , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia), which show clearly historical borders between Azerbaijan and Kurdistan, Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. Sharishirin you are right Iranian Azeribaijan include majority known as Azeri, kurds, Talyshi, kurds , Armenian and Assyrian minorities. See Wikipedia article about Azerbaijan (Iran). You can call Azeris as turks, median, central Asian, Albanians, Caucasians, Mannians, Aryans, Mongolian, etc. but, They are mixed of these ethnics. Any name you want to call them, they are living in a land called Azerbaijan of Iran. Nobody hide that in cities of Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), azeris are majority and kurds are minority. See demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. Why You misleading people? You mentioned that The Encyclopedia Americana, page 602, mentioned that Kurdish inhabited area starts from Lake Van is in Turkey and ends south west of Lake Urmia (Rez'iyeh) in Iran. Urmia city and Lake Urmia are different. These maps ( 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5). I have to be disagree with you that all above mentioned maps clearly show that it is not common and ordinary to see Kurdistan overlap Azarbaijan. Armenia case is different. Azerbaijan and Armenia claim about Nagorno Karabakh has historical reason. Sometimes it was a part of Albanians and sometimes Armenian kings. But, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), always was/be a part of Azerbaijan. I listed you and other users several historical and modern maps showing that they never be part of a Kurdistan or Kurdish inhabited areas. You will see that even Kurdish inhabited areas of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran in the area of south west of Lake Urmia are always inside Iranian Azerbaijan, but majorities in that area are kurds. So, if we want to show ethnographic, not map based on history, kingdoms and administrative divisions of Iran, you should consider south west of Lake Urmia as a part of such a map. It should be mentioned that highlands in border of Iranian Azerbaijan and Turkey there is no city except too small villages with sparse population. Nowadays, Because of PKK operation near Turkish-Iranian border, this highland area is going to have more sparse area. Indeed Iranian regime converted it to an Army zoom to operate against PKK. See Map Iran_Azeri_people
Parishan and Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin please next time provide historical/geographical evidences to convince other users such as me , VartanM, John Vandenberg , Alex Bakharev and other users. Don’t dictate your map or misleading maps of texas university such as ( 1) to convince us to ignore historical map , Near_East-1835, The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. I wish peaceful live for all ethnics around the world. Our history helps us to understand our position and not attack other ethnics physically or in the virtual environment (Internet).
User Iran_74: Iran_74, 9:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My answers to Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin:
Dear Ali doostzadeh when you are telling you don’t care. It is not good statement for a postdoc and researcher like you. Don’t think people in Europe and America accepts ideas based on caring or not caring. If you show them evidences, they accept. You know that Ancient Iranian Azerbaijan is where based on historical maps. Suppose you don’t accept Encyclopedia Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana, Wikipedia articles about Azerbaijan (Iran), West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), please let Wikipedia users know you accept which references. If you accept Wikipedia which you are acting as an editor for that, look your favorite map and see why it is wrong and misleading. If you agree that it is misleading, don’t restore it to the Azerbaijani Language article. You told me that I attribute my own map to an Encyclopedia it is not the right thing to do. It means that you can add misleading map, but it cannot reflect facts mentioned in historical maps and Wikipedia articles, Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana into a revised mp.
Dear Sharishirin: Again unfortunately, you did act accurate. A historic map of northwestern Persia from 1724 and another map Ancient_Kurdistan clearly shows that there was no any Kurdish kingdom at that time, if you zoom on that map you will see that Kurdish inhabited area on that time was from south-east turkey (Ottomanian empire) till south west of persia. I am reading you areas near Lake Urmia (you will see it wrote Turkoman). Turkoman who speak Azeri, one of Turkic troop who ruled Qara Qoyunlu kingdom Kara Koyunlu. See zoon you called it Iranian Kurdistan is south of ancient Azerbaijan (Iran) and your mentioned map didn’t highlighted any border for it. The same as for Assyrians. It means neither Kurds nor Assyrians had a kingdom on that time. They scattered between three kingdoms on that time. I fully investigated your mentioned map and map Ancient_Kurdistan by zooming in and these two maps reject your hypothesis about )]], West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). You and other people can judge. Wishing peace to you and other Kurdish brothers, living in the peace and not claiming other ethnic lands as ours.
Iranli74, 4:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
My answer to Alex Bakharev
Why you always appear in articles exactly after visited by Ali doostzadeh. Are you friends. Are you the same persons? how it is possible to be such a close users and track activities of each other every micro second!! You restored totally wrong and misleading map i am sure because Ali doostzadeh asked you. You are administrator but unfortunately a dictator. How many times I should show you historical evidence based on facts mentioned in historical maps and Wikipedia articles, Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana that your restored map is wrong. Show me an acceptable fact that your restored map is correct. Referring to contrary maps of Texas university is misleading. Show historical evidence. I am sure you will never find any map includes West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh) in Kurdistan. Why you restored the wrong map and locked article Azerbaijani language? Do you have any reason for that? Any evidence? Any academic or historical reason? Or you are in love with Kurdistan and want to dictate wrong maps. Be neutral as you are an administrator. Don’t be a dictator. I am sure other users will ask the same question. Be ready for that and find answer for that. If you think that Azeri people and me will allow Kurdish lovers like you, Ali doostzadeh and [[User:Sharishirin| Sharishirin], We should inform you that never. I myself will continue debating with you and your close friend Ali doostzadeh to overcome your resistance to not provide acceptable historical evidences which agree with Wikipedia articles, , Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana, etc. why you force wrong map which includes West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh) in Kurdistan. I provided lots of historical and current facts that your map is wrong. I and other Azeris wait to see your evidence to reject our facts.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 9:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Sharishirin: Again I have to help you how you can contribute in writing/editing an article.
When you are stating a point, you should be able to defend your statement by providing an acceptable reference and document. I listed readers bunch of reference and people can go an read them if they are interested.
Again you are missing point when I am telling highland of west Azerbaijan is a sparse/army area. It doesn’t mean people from Kurdish villages go to Salmas, Khoy, etc. They can go anywere in Azerbaijan, Sanandaj, Iraq, etc.
If you read Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, you will see that most cities have majority of Azeris and minority Kurds.
Nobody ignore them. Some cities such as Mahabad have majority kurds. But it is inside historical Azerbaijan from the past till now.
>You may be not happy about that, but it is the fact. One more point don’t mislead us most part of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran is not highland and it have lots of cities. If you read for instance Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, take population of cities and find which ethnic is majority by doing little mathematics you will conclude Azeris are majority.
Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran includes statistics of each city and information about majority ethnic of each city.
Americana doesn’t say Lake urmia is inside what you call Kurdistan.
I am very careful what I am stating to avoid any contradiction. Come back and read my answer again. One friendly advice, don’t state something without any documented reference and provide your references for reader by giving hyperlink.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 12:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately almost all kurd nationalist like you are not enough educated. You always need citation to your statements. Your racist ideas masked your brain. I try to answer following questions to concern of neutral readers, not you who will never learn to act truly because I asked you to add references after your statement. We need citation with internet hyperlink.
In another maps ethnocaucasus, Kurdish lands-1, Kurdish lands-2 you can see all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbaijanis except south west part of it. Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province agree with that. I can provide more resources if any user need more to be convinced.
A historic map of northwestern Persia from 1724 and another map Ancient_Kurdistan clearly shows that there was no any Kurdish kingdom at that time, if you zoom on that map you will see that Kurdish inhabited area on that time was from south-east turkey (Ottomanian empire) till south west of persia. I am reading you areas near Lake Urmia (you will see it wrote Turkoman). Turkoman who speak Azeri, one of Turkic troop who ruled Qara Qoyunlu kingdom Kara Koyunlu. See zoon you called it Iranian Kurdistan is south of ancient Azerbaijan (Iran) and your mentioned map didn’t highlighted any border for it. The same as for Assyrians. It means neither Kurds nor Assyrians had a kingdom on that time. They scattered between three kingdoms on that time. I fully investigated your mentioned map and map Ancient_Kurdistan by zooming in and these two maps reject your hypothesis about )]], West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). You and other people can judge.
Historically south-west of the province was/is populated by kurds but it was always inside historical Azerbaijan (Atropatane).Nowadays, there was a request from central government to exclude south-west of the province and historical Atropatane (Azerbaijan) to create a new province so-called Mukrian with Center Mahabad. But it was rejected by Tehran because Azeris are majority in Teharan and well-integrated in the Iranian government (always Azeris occupied several ministers and supriom leader of Iran is Azeri; before revolution Reza khan was half-Azeri, Khatamei former president is half-Azeri, current president is claimed to be Azeri and can speak Azeri fluently).They just accept to indicate Mahabad as a special zoon and established local Kurdish/Persian TV in the city which can be watched in south-west Azerbaijan province. It should be mentioned that province itself has a TV called West-Azerbaijan local Azeri/Persian/Kurdish TV broadcasting from Urmia and whole province and some parts of East Azerbaijan province can watch it. In general, if one ethnic lives as a majority in a historical city or area such as south-west part of West Azerbaijan, it doesn’t help them to start claim being independent. Kurds for hundreds of years .
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 9:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear interested users: :User Ali doostzadeh suggested following statment:
Thanks user Ali doostzadeh for his suggestion. i agree with him that demographic map always should not have any contrary with wikipedia articles. For instance map Azerilanguage, critically contradicts with wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran which shows all cities are linguistically mixed of Azeris, kurds, Assyrians, except Miandoab (only Azeris) and south-west of the province (only kurds). I will edit map Iran_Azeri_people and will post as an image to the Wikipedia and can be referred to articles Azeri language, Azeris, Iranian Azerbaijan, etc. I wish living peaceful for all Iranian and doesn’t matter they are Persian, Azeri, Gilaki and Mazandarani , Kurd, Arab, Lur, Baloch, Turkmen, Assyrian, Armeniran, etc. They all are Iranian and live in great Iran with long history of living its people in peace.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 10:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear interested users and Ali doostzadeh:
As I promised, I edited map Iran_Azeri_people to map Iran_Azeripeoples_2008 and is ready to located at Azeri-related articles such as articles Azeri language, Azeris, Iranian Azerbaijan, etc. I hope that it will convince most people and will not be reverted by other users. Any not-biased and neutral comment is welcome.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 12:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I totally disagree, this Iranchi still is unable to distinguish between the majority of the area and the majority of the inhabitants. The majority of the inhabtitans has a demographical concept and means population (جمعیت) of province ad since there has been never a cenus basd on ethnicities in this province it will be never proven who is majority there. The majority of the area has a geographical concept (مناطق) and this is what has been tried to be shown on the maps. east of the cities of salmas and Khoi and Urmia is turkoman plus north of Miandoab Sayinqala and Takab and northeast of Naqada. this is what has been showed on all neutral and academic non-Kurdish non-turkoman maps, examples listed bellow. and the turkoman areas (not to be confuded with turkoman population of the province) forms a small portion of the geography of the province. this is what user iranchi (and all his banned socks) is trying to smartly pretend that is unable to understand. like generally uneducated turkoman nationalists who cannot understand that Babak is not the same as Baybak! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran-Ethnicity-2004.PNG Image:Kurdish-inhabited area by CIA (1992).jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/06/iran_maps/html/default.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran_peoples.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg also Iranica says the geographic extent of Azeri-speaking people goes well beyond the boundaries of West Azarbaijan province that is true as showed above, wherever west azerbaijan has borders with east azarbaijan the area is turkoman-speaking, but as explained above unfortunately it does not form a significant portion of the landscape of the province. I'd like also to add following academic sources to see how they say most of west azerbaijan province is Kurdish and not turkoman. [21] [22] Conclusion: the current map Image:Azerilanguage.png does not exclude turkman areas of west azarbaijan province of Iran. If not the west azarbaijan province is wider than the narrow area showed as non-Oghuz speaking; there is No need to dash Kurdish areas of northern regions markd as olive on the carrent map. Sharishirin ( talk) 11:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Based on the same analogue and logic of the self-made map proposed by user Iranchi, I'd like to rpopose this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran_Azaripeoples_2008.PNG
@Iranchi, I don't remember I've deleted your comments anywhere, (show diffs please). Also you should be ashamed of this extremely racist personal attacks you commited with your previous account here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Azerbaijani_language&diff=178635109&oldid=178596463
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Azerbaijani_language&diff=178746679&oldid=178682198
Sharishirin (
talk)
11:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all I see you couldn’t teach yourself statistics. You referred to map of BCC which everybody knows they are not an academic/ encyclopedia/research center and nobody accept them as a reference in Wikipedia, you can ask editors/administrators.
Another point, you listed three misleading maps. Your first map is handmade, not published by CIA. CIA never published any map. CIA just reported this
fact for Iran. Your third map is what I used in my new map and contradicts with your other maps but agree with
Kurdistan map.
You are not Iranian because you don’t know that nowadays there is Turkoman in Iran and only you can find them in Northern Iraq. See Wikipedia Article about
Iraq, Demographics part. Iranian Azerbaijani call themselves Tork (turk) or Azeri. Educate yourself about Iran and its ethnic groups.
You add two new sources. But in its article about Kurds, it doesn’t say Cities Urmia, Khoy, etc. are Kurdish-inhabited or Azeri-inhabited. But it clearly say in its another article about Azerbaijanis. Look at article
Azerbaijanis. In the fourth line it says Lake Urmia is inside Azerbaijani-inhabited area in Iran. In the line 7, says ‘Major Azarbaijani cities include Tabriz, Urmia, Ardabil, Zanjan, Khoy, and Maragheh’. So, this reference completely rejects your hypothesis.
Your second reference is a book of a Kurdish writers with biased ideas about Iran. I can list several books that says west Azerbaijan and urmia are populated by only azeri s. See:
• H. Anzali, Urumiyah dar guzar-i zaman ("Urmia in the course of time").
ISBN
964-6614-07-8 p49, (2000)
• A. Kaviyanpur, Tarikh-i iyah ("The History of Urmia"),
ISBN
964-91860-6-9 p421, (1999)
Your accuracy almost is too low. You need to practice and attend course scientific writing in your university if you are still student.
Your idea to accept or reject my new map is not important and nobody care about that.
Your created map is much worse and wrong than what
Parishan created and added and nobody will accept that. I have one suggestion for you, try to add your map in Kurdish-related articles which mostly spam by kurds. More people can support you,but be sure even kurds will note vote your map, because Iranian knows that in
East Azarbaijan province of Iran, there is no any kurd. You don’t know enough about iran administrative divisions. You added a part of Lake Urmia as mixed populated area. Your geography and map reading is zero. That’s way even kurds will not support your fake map.
As user
Ali doostzadeh said ‘uncivil language will get you banned. So if there is a demographic map, lets just show it as dashed. I am not going to get involved more in this discussion, but ultimately if this sort of thing ends in edit wars, r.v.'s and etc., it will not go anywhere except higher powers in Wikipedia will say show it as dashed. So before it goes there, I think showing it as dashed is the best solution’.
So, if you want to continue acting as an extremely biased user with not enough information about Iran, and try to force such a worse maps you will face problem because higher powers in Wikipedia will say show whole
West Azarbaijan as dashed and administrators will stop you from spamming wrong maps.
I don’t need to discuss any more with you which is useless and prefer to discuss with other users about azeri-related articles when articles are unlocked.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 20:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking for update and addition of some references. There does not seem to be much information on Shirvani dialect of Azerbaijani, so perhaps, someone could provide those sources. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
K, I know this was raised by another person here, but this article sorely needs a grammar section, like most other language pages in Wiki. Here are some basic questions to get it started:
That should provide something basic for a grammar section, n'est-ce pas? -- 64.223.41.156 ( talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The reference in the intro section to "anthropologist Patricia Higgins" cites only a page range with no reference to the source:
Thnidu ( talk) 19:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Article was moved without a consensus. Grandmaster ( talk) 08:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I find that the current state of the lead is disorganized and fails to provide a summary of the article, as suggested by the Manual of Style. I propose moving everything after the first sentence out of the lead and into either (1) the Distribution of speakers section or (2) the Dialects section, as appropriate, with the exception of the sentence "Generally, Azeris in Iran were regarded as "a well integrated linguistic minority" by academics prior to Iran's Islamic Revolution." which I believe does not belong in this article at all, and is already present in the Demographics of Iran, Iranian Azeris, and Azerbaijani people articles. Since a number of those to-be-moved sentences refer to varieties and not dialects, the Dialects section might be renamed "Varieties and dialects". If variety is just a poor choice of word, then could those sentences be reworded so that they provided an introduction at the beginning of the Dialects section? What do other editors think? After the lead is cleared out, then a couple of summarizing sentences could be added, such as "Like Turkish and Georgian it is an agglutinative language." Comments? -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Proposal: Please provide proper UTF-8 letter as well. -- Keichwa 17:10, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Why is this page protected? What disputes need resolution ? Refdoc 21:13, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What's the matter with this article? any problems over there? Hope that the dispute will be solved soon. On this moment too, if you want to know me more please look at my user:Kolomonggo. I can be found in English, Indonesian and Javanese Wikipedia.
Salam,
Hope this is not also seen as vandalism. I have put the quote from the Persian encyclopedia to the bottom of the article. It is clear, he is very improtant as an academic, but common language is use is as the introduction describes. I have actually expanded upon this. I believe that the quote is more an expression of the professors' wish to be perfectly accurate and split the hair down the middle than actual use. At least in my experience Iranian Azeri's will introduce themselves as Iranian Turks, Azeri Turks, Azeris, Turkish speaker (you know our Turkish, not Istanbul...) etc. whatever, certainly not with the fine precision of the encyclopedia. And there is a view that use defines correctness in languages rather than vice versa. I did some other clarifications + editing, too, but I think this is teh improtant one. What remains in dispute to remove that notice ? Refdoc 21:35, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I would say I disagree with the last revert Roozbeh - the term might be offensive to some, to others it means a lot - at least considering the heat of the revert wars across the Azerbaijan spectrum of articles here on wikipedia. SO NPOV would be to include something like "a region which some prefer to call South Azarbaijan" or something like this. I think it is easy to loose sight for the relevant when engaging with trolls and vandals like our aphasic anonymous. But the relvant is to include all valid POVs to come to some thing like NPOV. Even if made by a troll a point may be valid. . Apart from the above, the term used in by the Iranian embassy in Ottawa Canada is "South Azarbaijan" [2]... :-) Refdoc 13:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
a vs e - I would think this is making a political mountain out of a transliterational molehill. apart from this - The region (loosely corresponding to the four ostans) is the southern part of the region loosely called 'Azarbaijan/Azerbeycan' (whatever..), the north of which was lost to Russia during the 19th century, formed part of the Soviet Union and eventually became an independent state, while the southern areas remained integral part of Persian empire/Iran until today, despite a short period of 'independence' under Soviet 'protection' in 1945/46. The difficulty for this article starts with some people hijacking an initially innocent and loosely defined geographic description in order to form a South/North Korea image in people's mind, while others try to use the term in its original sense and again others develop to latter, geographic use a politically motivated aversion. Sounds to me like the recipe for NPOV disaster - which i think is still avertable by careful formulation. And wrt the {{South Azerbaijan]] article here in Wikipedia - this should be our next joint project for NPOVfying and clearing. Refdoc 14:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And everyday I learn something new.... Adam Olearius, German traveller and secretary to the Holsteinian ambassador to the Persian Shah in Isfahan in the 17th century crossed the 'Arixan' river coming from 'Derbent' and the town and region of Shemakha (both today RoA) to Ardebil in 'Aterbeighdan'... Some of his writings are published in English [4]. Further, the Azerbaijanian ministry for tourism appears to be quite clear that the old name of the region is Aran [5].
So what do we make of this ? Refdoc 15:05, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Turk people of Iran say their language "Turki" or "Turku" & Azeri isn't valid.
Hi,
This is a need of consistency between Wikimedia projects. This language is called Azeri on Wiktionary. Yann 12:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zereshk, I generally highly respect your contributions, but i think this one is somewhat out of place in this article, given that the article is about the Turkic Azerbaijani language and not so much about the linguistic history of the people living in Republic of Azerbaijan or Iranian Azerbaijan. Refdoc 23:11, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No, I am not saying this. I also did not delete anything as far as I am aware. I will just look at the diffs again. My last edits were late in the night and i might have messed things up. Anyway, I just think, as it is, the bit about the history has several non-sequiturs and is more about the history of language succession in the area and language(s) with that name than about the histoy of what we call nowadays Azari or Azerbaijani language. Refdoc 10:26, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Right I did a few diffs e.g. [6]. It is quite clear that some people delete contributions here on the talk page. This is actually vandalism just as messing with the article itself is. I would suggets that you (whoever you are) are a bit more respectful towards other people's contributions. Refdoc 10:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This sounds ok. Refdoc 22:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Refdoc's original point. English language doesn't devote multiple paragraphs to Brythonic (let alone Native American languages), nor French language to Gaulish; an in-depth account of the pre-Turkic language of Azerbaijan belongs in its own article, not here. And incidentally, one that completely neglects Udi and ancient Albanian can certainly not be considered complete. - Mustafaa 00:04, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
id:Bahasa Azeri - Muijz 00:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
We can watch Azerbaijani tv broadcast in Turkey. I can completely understand the speaking. I'm sure that it is same for anybody in Turkey or Azerbaycan. and with a one week quick course they will be master on the two dialect. not a different language.
Zereshk I think it's your problem because I am also from Turkey and I can easily understand Azerbaijani, the Azerbaijan National Television AzTv1 sometimes broadcasts movies in Istanbul dialect, if Azerbaijanis are not capable of understanding "Turkî Istanbulî" why would the Azerbaijan national TV broadcast movies in Istanbul dialect? I also have a few Azerbaijani (north) friends and be sure that we understand each very well.
1 week is not enough to master one of the languages, you are right azeris and turks understand each other perfectly, but in azerbaijan we have a different accent and a mixture with persian and russian language. so i think it would take more then 1 week, i think 1 month will be enough - Karabakh
Ethnologue.com writes that they speak they can understand each other and they do both speak Oghuz Turkish.
At the very least its an accent difference, Turkish speakers of Azerbaycan, South Azerbaycan-Iran, Iraq, Caucauses, Syria, Turkey, Balkans, Cyprus can fully understand each other.
I don't understand how they're considered different languages to each other?
I mean there is more difference between the accent of a Londoner and Geordy from Newcastle in North England than between these accents.
It should be highlighted that they can understand one-another and that the Turkish of the different countries who speak Oghuz Turkish isn't a different language.
Currently its not very clear, to someone who didn't know anything about this they'd think a totally different language was spoken which is incorrect.
The article is very misleading and can really confuse people.
For example, I was so shocked to realise and witness with my own eyes Azeri Turks and Turkey Turks speaking together perfectly understanding each other.
They show Azerbaijan Tv on Turkish Tv and vica-versa the same chanels are also broadcasted into Iran.
As a result of article's like this most people don't realise this and get a shock when they realise that they are not actually a different language.
A Turk from Turkey could easily go to Tabriz and have absolutely no difficultly with language, a Turk from Baku can go to Turkey and have absolutely no problems with communication.
The article doesn't explain this, Azeri Turks can communicate with Bulgarian and other Balkan Turks, with Cypriot Turks etc do they all speak Azerbaijani?
Something has to be done about this.
For example, in the Persian Language page, Dari-Tajik etc are all included as Persian which is strange since Tajik is not mutually intellegible to Persian speakers of Iran.
Why don't the mutually intelligible Turk languages create a merge as in total there are 120 million mutually intelligible speakers but due to the layout of the articles this isn't very clear.
-- Johnstevens5 02:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Azeri Turkish is perfectly understandalbe to Turkish speakers of the Caucuses, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Cyprus, the Balkans and the new wave of Turkish immigrants in Europe.
Why can't this be mentioned?
The language of the Azeri TUrks is one which is mutually intelligible by rouhgly 120 million people.
In the Persian Language article they even put Tajik in as if its Persian when has major differences.
Now I'm not trying to include Ozbek or Uygur Turkish as the exact same language however the one's a mentioned above clearly are.
I think the page's should be merged or a mention made of this because its very important, to someone with no knowledge of this because of the misleading nature of this page they'd think it was a ommpletely different language only spoken and understood by 30 million.
Regards
-- 86.138.214.28 13:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
In those days, I first became aware that the people that we thought of as the Muslims of the Soviet Union spoke languages that were still closely related to the language of Turkey. We became very aware of this in 1990, with "Black January" in Azerbaijan, and suddenly the Turkish television stations were full of Azeris phoning in from houses in Baku, in a language that we could understand. It was astonishing. No one had been aware that that connection had lived on. One of the most interesting plane trips I took was the first-ever direct flight between Istanbul and Baku.
Sons of the Conquerors: The Rise of the Turkic World Hugh Pope
REview
http://www.cceia.org/viewMedia.php/prmID/5163
Ethnologue.com
Azerbaijani, South = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani, North = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish, Turkey = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern,
Turkish in Balkans = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Iraq = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Syria = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Caucauses = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish in Europe = Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern,
Would you like me to show you Turkish Television listings and show the Azeri Turkish shows? the Azeri Turk interviews?
OPen your eyes to the reality, they completely understand each other.
It should be included that Azeri Turks language is spoken and understood by 120 million people!
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 14:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
For example, if we called American a language, Australlian a language and English a language and said they were all a different language it would be really confusing as they can all understand and communicate with each other, nobody could surely state that these are different languages.
The language in Azerbaycan and Turkey isn't actually a different language and in those countries in their language they refer to themselves as Turks and their language as Turki/Turkce, its common knowledge to the people of the region that their language is the same.
Another example is a commongly used phrase by the president of Azerbaijan, he refers to Azerbaijan and Turkey as "Iki Dovlet Bir Millet", "two countries one nation", as does Turkmenistan.
I'm just trying to highlight this for non-Turkish speakers, it always comes as a shock and takes such a long time to explain to people that they understand each other.
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 14:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Because Azerbaijan is called Azerbaijan people think that the language must be Azerbaijani and that its somthing completely different to Turkish when infact it is Turkish and called as Turki/Turkce in their language among the people.
Regards
-- Johnstevens5 01:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Johnstevens5
I don't really understand why people make a problem of this! I was born in Europe, my grandfather was a Turkish immigrant who came to Europe in the 1960s. I can understand Azerbaijani TV shows. I can even read texts in Azerbaijani. And I am just 19 years old!!!
So what is this all about?
I can't understand why people don't accept the fact that Azerbaijani Turkish and Anatolian Turkish are the same language, but just a different accent or lets say a dialect but fully intelligible to each other.
On the contrary everybody accepts that (the mutually UNintelligible) Sorani and Kurmanji are the same language: Kurdish. They even accept that unintelligible Zaza and Gorani are a dialect of the Kurdish language.
And the people here are bullshitting (srry) that Azerbaijani and Turkish aren't the same!!!
They are considerd as different languages simply because they aren't situated in the same country, this is political not linsuistic. Why did Elçibey referred to the language as "Türk dili"???
Are the dialects of the English language mutually intelligible?
appen is nabbut bovver 'ist lad. that young man is always in trouble.
werst thew of te? where are you going?
ars garn yam I'm going home.
This template is strictly relavant with the article. Please see article and infoboxs for details about language and language family.
Regards. Must TC 09:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
There are several sources that have not been considered by this article, and one of the is from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia (GSE), which was the biggest encyclopedia in the world and the premier scholarly undertaking in the former USSR. Here's the link to the short specific article on Azerbaijani literature: [8] Also, here's the reproduction of the article, with the section presenting most interest in bold:
Азербайджанский язык, язык азери, язык азербайджанцев, живущих в Азербайджанской ССР, Грузинской ССР, Дагестанской АССР, Узбекской ССР, Туркменской ССР, Казахской ССР и УССР, а также в Иране и Ираке. На А. я. в СССР говорит около 2,94 млн. человек (1959; 3,6 млн. человек на начало 1965, оценка). А. я. относится к юго-западной ветви тюркских языков. Он восходит к языку огузских племён Центральной Азии 7-11 вв., который явился языком-предшественником для нескольких современных тюркских языков: А. я. и турецкого языка. В процессе развития эти языки изменились как в фонетической структуре, грамматическом строе, так и в словарном составе. В разговорном А. я. наблюдается значительное количество диалектов, которые объединяются в следующие группы: восточную (кубинский, дербенский, бакинский, шемахинский, муганский и ленкоранский); западную (казахский, карабахский, гянджинский и айрумский); северную (нухинский и закатало-кахский); южную (нахичеванский, ордубадский, тебризский диалекты и ереванский говор). Особые группы А. я. составляют диалекты: кашкайцев, авшарцев (Иран и Афганистан) и терекеме (Армянской ССР и Грузинской ССР). Литературный А. я. начал складываться с 11 в., современный литературный А. я. оформился в середине 19 в. на базе бакинского и шемахинского диалектов. Письменность до 1929 была на арабском алфавите, с 1929 по 1939 - на латинском и с 1939 - на основе русской графики. Лит.: Ширалиев М. А., К вопросу об изучении и классификации азербайджанских диалектов, "Изв. Азербайджанского филиала АН СССР", 1941 ,Ї 4; его же,. Изучение диалектов азербайджанского языка, "Изв. АН СССР. ОЛЯ", М., 1947, т. 6, в. 5; Дэмирчизадэ Э., Азэри эдэби дили Тарихи, Бакы, 1967; его же, Азэрбаjчан эдэби дили тарихи хуласэлэри. Бакы, 1938; Русско-азербайджанский словарь, под ред. Г., Гусейнова, т., 1 - 4, Б., 1940 - 46. Г. Г. Брянцева.
The bold text states the following in English: "Azerbaijani language ascends to the language of Oghuz tribes in Central Asia in 7-11 centuries, which was the predecessor of several modern Turkic languages: Azerbaijani language and Turkish language." Another quote: "Literary Azerbaijani language started to form since the 11th century, modern literary Azerbaijani language has formed in the middle of 19th century on the basis of Baku and Shemakha dialects". This of course differs from the current article, and we should thus update it.
There is a much lengthier article too, in the general article about Azerbaijan [9], and about Azerbaijani people [10], but that's for later. -- AdilBaguirov 05:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
No where does the source cited say that it is the lingua franca amongst Kurds, Armenians, and Talysh so I removed it as it sounds like OR. I also shortened a sentence that had too many unnecessary words. Hajji Piruz 14:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I uploaded a photograph showing three alphabets used on tombstones of different ages at a cemetery near Baku. I feel that it is a nice illustration; but if for some reason it is deemed inappropriate, it can be removed. The placement is a little awkward since the "Latin alphabets" image is so long. Best, Eliezg 09:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I contacted ethnologue a while back on their data and asked them for their source. They said they could not find their source. "Ali, Thank you for noting this. We have made a correction which will appear in the next edition. The population we now give is 11,224,000 (2001 Johnstone and Mandryk). The Ethnologue site will show an update when the next edition is published in 2009. Best regards, Ray Gordon Ethnologue, Research and " Ray, I couldn't find where the 15th edition had any mention of 35% under Azerbaijani for Iran, or any percentage, for that matter. Can you figure out what his problem is? --Con "
Another user while back name Kiumars had contacted them independently also and they gave a similar response (their numbers on Iran does not add up to the population they put for Iran). Also recently another person who recently contacted them: [11]. "Dear Mazdak, Sorry we cannot help you further with this question. This information was posted by a previous editor, and it probably came from his personal communication with someone else, and was therefore not documented. Regards, Conrad Hurd".
Their numbers also do not add up. They say Irans population is:67,503,205 (which is close enough to CIA factbook). But then you add all of their statistics (some even from 1982) and you obtain a total of: 72,423,703 people. Which is short 4,920,498 people. I have the E-mails of my inquiry and their response. I can forward it to any user or admin if they so wish to look at it. Domari (1,338,271) is another big mistake by the site. There is not that many gypsy speakers in Iran. It could be at most 50,000. -- alidoostzadeh 14:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
VartanM, the claim of Azeri being once considered to be the same as Turkish is controversial. Here is an early 19th century record from Aleksandr Bestuzhev:
"Ср. примечание А. А. Бестужева-Марлинского в рассказе «Красное покрывало»: «Татарский язык закавказского края отличается от турецкого, и с ним, как с французским в Европе, можно пройти из конца в конец всю Азию». Об этом подробнее см.: Михайлов М. С. К вопросу о занятиях Лермонтова «татарским» языком // Тюркологический сборник. Т. 1. М.; Л.: Изд-во АН СССР, 1951. С. 127—135" [12] Parishan ( talk) 08:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
It generally was not and is not considered a dialect of Turkish. Your sources do not state that, and neither does the majority of serious linguists. Yes, the language does go under Azerbaijani Turkish as well, but only because the words Turkish and Turkic in Azeri do not differ in spelling and pronunciation. Most scholars agree Azerbaijani is a language, regardless of how this fact might make some people feel. The mutual intelligibility and language continuum aspects are natural linguistic occurrences and are in no way proofs of two or more languages constituting one. I suggest you research those concepts before you start discussing linguistics. It is especially odd to hear such baseless claims from somebody who does not seem conversant in either of those languages. Consider this discussion over, if you do not have anything except OR and your-friend-from-Kars argument to operate with. Parishan ( talk) 06:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Parishan ( talk · contribs) created Image:Azerilanguage.png, which appears to have been revised by a freshly minded user Sehend ( talk · contribs) as Image:Azeri.Language.png.
When that new user added it to the article, it was reverted by Parishan, but it has come back again with a inflammatory edit summary. I am guessing that these different maps present different points of view; is there data/sources that supports each map? John Vandenberg ( talk) 09:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately Parishan several times tired to push her personal Kurdish dream about Kurdistan in his map about Iranian Azerbaijan. As a geographical/historian/researcher we should have neutal point of views. If you want to see where was/is historical Azerbaijan of Iran, you can read article of History of the name Azerbaijan. You will see several historical map of Atropatane (Iranian Azerbaijan). Especially look at maps , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia and zoom on borders between historical Azerbaijan and historical Kurdish inhabited area. John Vandenberg is right. Texas university created some contrary maps. Maps , iran_peoples, ethnocaucasus, Kurdish lands-1, Kurdish lands-2 seeing all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbajanis except south west part of it. Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province agree with that. But, unfortunately Texas university in maps 1 and [15] had a mistake and considered all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran as Kurdish inhabited areas which is wrong if we look at historical maps showing Azerbaijani-inhabited areas. If we average maps of Kurdish-inhabited area and compare it with ethnolinguistic map of Iran and Wikipedia article of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran , we will find that , iran_peoples map at the moment is most commonly used map. Unfortunately people which have sympathy about Kurdistan always refer to maps created by Kurdish nationalist. Iranian Azeris doesn’t have high feeling to separate from Iran as their economical situation is better than other ethnics in Iran. So, they didn’t care about above mentioned claim of Kurdish people for West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. To understand where azeris in Iran live look at maps ,1 , 2 , 3 and 4. These maps are similar to the map of texas university , iran_peoples map except high lands near Turkish-Iran border which there is no any cities on that area. South West of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran is Kurdish inhabited area of historical Iranian Azerbaijan (Atropatane) as you can see in historical map , Near_East-1835 and always belong to Iranian Azerbijan. In Map Iran_Azeri_people you can see Iranian Azerbaijanis are inhabited in 9 provinces of Iran. It is based on Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and maps , iran_peoples, [16] , [17] , [18] and [19]. I hope I could answer user John Vandenberg
User Irani74: Irani74, 5:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My answers to Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin
Ali doostzadeh claim that Iranica has no such maps, I think it is not good to attribute false materials to Encyclopedias. Although his reason to help Parishan to push a non-realistic map which is based on their dream about Kurdistan (Kurdish inhabited territories of five countries). First of all, we expect you, Ali doostzadeh, Sharishirin and Parishan, to be honest and accurate. NO BODY CLAIM IRANICA HAS SUCH A MAP. I SAID IRANICA SAYS, The Encyclopedia Iranica states that the geographic extent of Azeri-speaking people goes "well beyond the boundaries of West Azarbaijan", demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. If you are looking for historical borders between Iranian Azerbaijan and Kurdistan, you will find it in maps , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia and zoom on borders between historical Azerbaijan and historical Kurdish inhabited area. you can read article of History of the name Azerbaijan. You will see several historical maps of Atropatane (Iranian Azerbaijan). Referring to these historical maps, easily will come up that Ali doostzadeh , Sharishirinand Parishan reasons have no historical bases. [User: Ali doostzadeh| Ali doostzadeh]] you are right it is not good to attribute false materials to Encyclopedias, so judge yourself which map is false your map or , Near_East-1835 map. The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. You know that your map should not be contradicted of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. By your map what you want to say, nobody is Azeri in cities of Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). Any Iranian/Azeris/kurd knows they are cities with majority Azeris and minority Kurdish people. If you look at Wikipedia article about Kurdistan you will see that above mentioned cities are not in Kurdistan maps. See also texas university maps Kurdish lands-1 and Kurdish lands-2. You will find that all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbaijanis except south west part of it. John Vandenberg is right. Texas University created some contrary maps. 1 and [20] had a mistake and considered all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran as Kurdish inhabited areas which is wrong if we look at historical maps showing Azerbaijani-inhabited areas. Parishan and Ali doostzadeh favorite map is based on these misleading maps and have contrary with historical maps of Iranian Azerbaijan ( , Near_East-1835 and , Johnson_Map_of_Turkey_Persia), which show clearly historical borders between Azerbaijan and Kurdistan, Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. Sharishirin you are right Iranian Azeribaijan include majority known as Azeri, kurds, Talyshi, kurds , Armenian and Assyrian minorities. See Wikipedia article about Azerbaijan (Iran). You can call Azeris as turks, median, central Asian, Albanians, Caucasians, Mannians, Aryans, Mongolian, etc. but, They are mixed of these ethnics. Any name you want to call them, they are living in a land called Azerbaijan of Iran. Nobody hide that in cities of Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), azeris are majority and kurds are minority. See demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. Why You misleading people? You mentioned that The Encyclopedia Americana, page 602, mentioned that Kurdish inhabited area starts from Lake Van is in Turkey and ends south west of Lake Urmia (Rez'iyeh) in Iran. Urmia city and Lake Urmia are different. These maps ( 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5). I have to be disagree with you that all above mentioned maps clearly show that it is not common and ordinary to see Kurdistan overlap Azarbaijan. Armenia case is different. Azerbaijan and Armenia claim about Nagorno Karabakh has historical reason. Sometimes it was a part of Albanians and sometimes Armenian kings. But, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), always was/be a part of Azerbaijan. I listed you and other users several historical and modern maps showing that they never be part of a Kurdistan or Kurdish inhabited areas. You will see that even Kurdish inhabited areas of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran in the area of south west of Lake Urmia are always inside Iranian Azerbaijan, but majorities in that area are kurds. So, if we want to show ethnographic, not map based on history, kingdoms and administrative divisions of Iran, you should consider south west of Lake Urmia as a part of such a map. It should be mentioned that highlands in border of Iranian Azerbaijan and Turkey there is no city except too small villages with sparse population. Nowadays, Because of PKK operation near Turkish-Iranian border, this highland area is going to have more sparse area. Indeed Iranian regime converted it to an Army zoom to operate against PKK. See Map Iran_Azeri_people
Parishan and Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin please next time provide historical/geographical evidences to convince other users such as me , VartanM, John Vandenberg , Alex Bakharev and other users. Don’t dictate your map or misleading maps of texas university such as ( 1) to convince us to ignore historical map , Near_East-1835, The Encyclopedia Iranica (above mentioned) statement about Azeri-speaking people of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran and demography part of Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran. I wish peaceful live for all ethnics around the world. Our history helps us to understand our position and not attack other ethnics physically or in the virtual environment (Internet).
User Iran_74: Iran_74, 9:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
My answers to Ali doostzadeh and Sharishirin:
Dear Ali doostzadeh when you are telling you don’t care. It is not good statement for a postdoc and researcher like you. Don’t think people in Europe and America accepts ideas based on caring or not caring. If you show them evidences, they accept. You know that Ancient Iranian Azerbaijan is where based on historical maps. Suppose you don’t accept Encyclopedia Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana, Wikipedia articles about Azerbaijan (Iran), West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh), please let Wikipedia users know you accept which references. If you accept Wikipedia which you are acting as an editor for that, look your favorite map and see why it is wrong and misleading. If you agree that it is misleading, don’t restore it to the Azerbaijani Language article. You told me that I attribute my own map to an Encyclopedia it is not the right thing to do. It means that you can add misleading map, but it cannot reflect facts mentioned in historical maps and Wikipedia articles, Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana into a revised mp.
Dear Sharishirin: Again unfortunately, you did act accurate. A historic map of northwestern Persia from 1724 and another map Ancient_Kurdistan clearly shows that there was no any Kurdish kingdom at that time, if you zoom on that map you will see that Kurdish inhabited area on that time was from south-east turkey (Ottomanian empire) till south west of persia. I am reading you areas near Lake Urmia (you will see it wrote Turkoman). Turkoman who speak Azeri, one of Turkic troop who ruled Qara Qoyunlu kingdom Kara Koyunlu. See zoon you called it Iranian Kurdistan is south of ancient Azerbaijan (Iran) and your mentioned map didn’t highlighted any border for it. The same as for Assyrians. It means neither Kurds nor Assyrians had a kingdom on that time. They scattered between three kingdoms on that time. I fully investigated your mentioned map and map Ancient_Kurdistan by zooming in and these two maps reject your hypothesis about )]], West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). You and other people can judge. Wishing peace to you and other Kurdish brothers, living in the peace and not claiming other ethnic lands as ours.
Iranli74, 4:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
My answer to Alex Bakharev
Why you always appear in articles exactly after visited by Ali doostzadeh. Are you friends. Are you the same persons? how it is possible to be such a close users and track activities of each other every micro second!! You restored totally wrong and misleading map i am sure because Ali doostzadeh asked you. You are administrator but unfortunately a dictator. How many times I should show you historical evidence based on facts mentioned in historical maps and Wikipedia articles, Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana that your restored map is wrong. Show me an acceptable fact that your restored map is correct. Referring to contrary maps of Texas university is misleading. Show historical evidence. I am sure you will never find any map includes West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh) in Kurdistan. Why you restored the wrong map and locked article Azerbaijani language? Do you have any reason for that? Any evidence? Any academic or historical reason? Or you are in love with Kurdistan and want to dictate wrong maps. Be neutral as you are an administrator. Don’t be a dictator. I am sure other users will ask the same question. Be ready for that and find answer for that. If you think that Azeri people and me will allow Kurdish lovers like you, Ali doostzadeh and [[User:Sharishirin| Sharishirin], We should inform you that never. I myself will continue debating with you and your close friend Ali doostzadeh to overcome your resistance to not provide acceptable historical evidences which agree with Wikipedia articles, , Iranica, Britannica, Joshua, Ethologue.com, The Encyclopedia Americana, etc. why you force wrong map which includes West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh) in Kurdistan. I provided lots of historical and current facts that your map is wrong. I and other Azeris wait to see your evidence to reject our facts.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 9:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear Sharishirin: Again I have to help you how you can contribute in writing/editing an article.
When you are stating a point, you should be able to defend your statement by providing an acceptable reference and document. I listed readers bunch of reference and people can go an read them if they are interested.
Again you are missing point when I am telling highland of west Azerbaijan is a sparse/army area. It doesn’t mean people from Kurdish villages go to Salmas, Khoy, etc. They can go anywere in Azerbaijan, Sanandaj, Iraq, etc.
If you read Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, you will see that most cities have majority of Azeris and minority Kurds.
Nobody ignore them. Some cities such as Mahabad have majority kurds. But it is inside historical Azerbaijan from the past till now.
>You may be not happy about that, but it is the fact. One more point don’t mislead us most part of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran is not highland and it have lots of cities. If you read for instance Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, take population of cities and find which ethnic is majority by doing little mathematics you will conclude Azeris are majority.
Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran includes statistics of each city and information about majority ethnic of each city.
Americana doesn’t say Lake urmia is inside what you call Kurdistan.
I am very careful what I am stating to avoid any contradiction. Come back and read my answer again. One friendly advice, don’t state something without any documented reference and provide your references for reader by giving hyperlink.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 12:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately almost all kurd nationalist like you are not enough educated. You always need citation to your statements. Your racist ideas masked your brain. I try to answer following questions to concern of neutral readers, not you who will never learn to act truly because I asked you to add references after your statement. We need citation with internet hyperlink.
In another maps ethnocaucasus, Kurdish lands-1, Kurdish lands-2 you can see all cities of West Azarbaijan Province of Iran are inhabited by Azerbaijanis except south west part of it. Wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province agree with that. I can provide more resources if any user need more to be convinced.
A historic map of northwestern Persia from 1724 and another map Ancient_Kurdistan clearly shows that there was no any Kurdish kingdom at that time, if you zoom on that map you will see that Kurdish inhabited area on that time was from south-east turkey (Ottomanian empire) till south west of persia. I am reading you areas near Lake Urmia (you will see it wrote Turkoman). Turkoman who speak Azeri, one of Turkic troop who ruled Qara Qoyunlu kingdom Kara Koyunlu. See zoon you called it Iranian Kurdistan is south of ancient Azerbaijan (Iran) and your mentioned map didn’t highlighted any border for it. The same as for Assyrians. It means neither Kurds nor Assyrians had a kingdom on that time. They scattered between three kingdoms on that time. I fully investigated your mentioned map and map Ancient_Kurdistan by zooming in and these two maps reject your hypothesis about )]], West Azarbaijan Province of Iran, cities with majority azeris, Urmia, khoy, Naghadeh, Salmas and Chaldoran ((Siahcheshmeh). You and other people can judge.
Historically south-west of the province was/is populated by kurds but it was always inside historical Azerbaijan (Atropatane).Nowadays, there was a request from central government to exclude south-west of the province and historical Atropatane (Azerbaijan) to create a new province so-called Mukrian with Center Mahabad. But it was rejected by Tehran because Azeris are majority in Teharan and well-integrated in the Iranian government (always Azeris occupied several ministers and supriom leader of Iran is Azeri; before revolution Reza khan was half-Azeri, Khatamei former president is half-Azeri, current president is claimed to be Azeri and can speak Azeri fluently).They just accept to indicate Mahabad as a special zoon and established local Kurdish/Persian TV in the city which can be watched in south-west Azerbaijan province. It should be mentioned that province itself has a TV called West-Azerbaijan local Azeri/Persian/Kurdish TV broadcasting from Urmia and whole province and some parts of East Azerbaijan province can watch it. In general, if one ethnic lives as a majority in a historical city or area such as south-west part of West Azerbaijan, it doesn’t help them to start claim being independent. Kurds for hundreds of years .
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 9:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear interested users: :User Ali doostzadeh suggested following statment:
Thanks user Ali doostzadeh for his suggestion. i agree with him that demographic map always should not have any contrary with wikipedia articles. For instance map Azerilanguage, critically contradicts with wikipedia article about West Azarbaijan Province of Iran which shows all cities are linguistically mixed of Azeris, kurds, Assyrians, except Miandoab (only Azeris) and south-west of the province (only kurds). I will edit map Iran_Azeri_people and will post as an image to the Wikipedia and can be referred to articles Azeri language, Azeris, Iranian Azerbaijan, etc. I wish living peaceful for all Iranian and doesn’t matter they are Persian, Azeri, Gilaki and Mazandarani , Kurd, Arab, Lur, Baloch, Turkmen, Assyrian, Armeniran, etc. They all are Iranian and live in great Iran with long history of living its people in peace.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 10:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Dear interested users and Ali doostzadeh:
As I promised, I edited map Iran_Azeri_people to map Iran_Azeripeoples_2008 and is ready to located at Azeri-related articles such as articles Azeri language, Azeris, Iranian Azerbaijan, etc. I hope that it will convince most people and will not be reverted by other users. Any not-biased and neutral comment is welcome.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 12:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I totally disagree, this Iranchi still is unable to distinguish between the majority of the area and the majority of the inhabitants. The majority of the inhabtitans has a demographical concept and means population (جمعیت) of province ad since there has been never a cenus basd on ethnicities in this province it will be never proven who is majority there. The majority of the area has a geographical concept (مناطق) and this is what has been tried to be shown on the maps. east of the cities of salmas and Khoi and Urmia is turkoman plus north of Miandoab Sayinqala and Takab and northeast of Naqada. this is what has been showed on all neutral and academic non-Kurdish non-turkoman maps, examples listed bellow. and the turkoman areas (not to be confuded with turkoman population of the province) forms a small portion of the geography of the province. this is what user iranchi (and all his banned socks) is trying to smartly pretend that is unable to understand. like generally uneducated turkoman nationalists who cannot understand that Babak is not the same as Baybak! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran-Ethnicity-2004.PNG Image:Kurdish-inhabited area by CIA (1992).jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/06/iran_maps/html/default.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran_peoples.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg also Iranica says the geographic extent of Azeri-speaking people goes well beyond the boundaries of West Azarbaijan province that is true as showed above, wherever west azerbaijan has borders with east azarbaijan the area is turkoman-speaking, but as explained above unfortunately it does not form a significant portion of the landscape of the province. I'd like also to add following academic sources to see how they say most of west azerbaijan province is Kurdish and not turkoman. [21] [22] Conclusion: the current map Image:Azerilanguage.png does not exclude turkman areas of west azarbaijan province of Iran. If not the west azarbaijan province is wider than the narrow area showed as non-Oghuz speaking; there is No need to dash Kurdish areas of northern regions markd as olive on the carrent map. Sharishirin ( talk) 11:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Based on the same analogue and logic of the self-made map proposed by user Iranchi, I'd like to rpopose this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran_Azaripeoples_2008.PNG
@Iranchi, I don't remember I've deleted your comments anywhere, (show diffs please). Also you should be ashamed of this extremely racist personal attacks you commited with your previous account here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Azerbaijani_language&diff=178635109&oldid=178596463
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Azerbaijani_language&diff=178746679&oldid=178682198
Sharishirin (
talk)
11:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
First of all I see you couldn’t teach yourself statistics. You referred to map of BCC which everybody knows they are not an academic/ encyclopedia/research center and nobody accept them as a reference in Wikipedia, you can ask editors/administrators.
Another point, you listed three misleading maps. Your first map is handmade, not published by CIA. CIA never published any map. CIA just reported this
fact for Iran. Your third map is what I used in my new map and contradicts with your other maps but agree with
Kurdistan map.
You are not Iranian because you don’t know that nowadays there is Turkoman in Iran and only you can find them in Northern Iraq. See Wikipedia Article about
Iraq, Demographics part. Iranian Azerbaijani call themselves Tork (turk) or Azeri. Educate yourself about Iran and its ethnic groups.
You add two new sources. But in its article about Kurds, it doesn’t say Cities Urmia, Khoy, etc. are Kurdish-inhabited or Azeri-inhabited. But it clearly say in its another article about Azerbaijanis. Look at article
Azerbaijanis. In the fourth line it says Lake Urmia is inside Azerbaijani-inhabited area in Iran. In the line 7, says ‘Major Azarbaijani cities include Tabriz, Urmia, Ardabil, Zanjan, Khoy, and Maragheh’. So, this reference completely rejects your hypothesis.
Your second reference is a book of a Kurdish writers with biased ideas about Iran. I can list several books that says west Azerbaijan and urmia are populated by only azeri s. See:
• H. Anzali, Urumiyah dar guzar-i zaman ("Urmia in the course of time").
ISBN
964-6614-07-8 p49, (2000)
• A. Kaviyanpur, Tarikh-i iyah ("The History of Urmia"),
ISBN
964-91860-6-9 p421, (1999)
Your accuracy almost is too low. You need to practice and attend course scientific writing in your university if you are still student.
Your idea to accept or reject my new map is not important and nobody care about that.
Your created map is much worse and wrong than what
Parishan created and added and nobody will accept that. I have one suggestion for you, try to add your map in Kurdish-related articles which mostly spam by kurds. More people can support you,but be sure even kurds will note vote your map, because Iranian knows that in
East Azarbaijan province of Iran, there is no any kurd. You don’t know enough about iran administrative divisions. You added a part of Lake Urmia as mixed populated area. Your geography and map reading is zero. That’s way even kurds will not support your fake map.
As user
Ali doostzadeh said ‘uncivil language will get you banned. So if there is a demographic map, lets just show it as dashed. I am not going to get involved more in this discussion, but ultimately if this sort of thing ends in edit wars, r.v.'s and etc., it will not go anywhere except higher powers in Wikipedia will say show it as dashed. So before it goes there, I think showing it as dashed is the best solution’.
So, if you want to continue acting as an extremely biased user with not enough information about Iran, and try to force such a worse maps you will face problem because higher powers in Wikipedia will say show whole
West Azarbaijan as dashed and administrators will stop you from spamming wrong maps.
I don’t need to discuss any more with you which is useless and prefer to discuss with other users about azeri-related articles when articles are unlocked.
User Iranli74: Iranli74, 20:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking for update and addition of some references. There does not seem to be much information on Shirvani dialect of Azerbaijani, so perhaps, someone could provide those sources. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
K, I know this was raised by another person here, but this article sorely needs a grammar section, like most other language pages in Wiki. Here are some basic questions to get it started:
That should provide something basic for a grammar section, n'est-ce pas? -- 64.223.41.156 ( talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
The reference in the intro section to "anthropologist Patricia Higgins" cites only a page range with no reference to the source:
Thnidu ( talk) 19:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Article was moved without a consensus. Grandmaster ( talk) 08:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I find that the current state of the lead is disorganized and fails to provide a summary of the article, as suggested by the Manual of Style. I propose moving everything after the first sentence out of the lead and into either (1) the Distribution of speakers section or (2) the Dialects section, as appropriate, with the exception of the sentence "Generally, Azeris in Iran were regarded as "a well integrated linguistic minority" by academics prior to Iran's Islamic Revolution." which I believe does not belong in this article at all, and is already present in the Demographics of Iran, Iranian Azeris, and Azerbaijani people articles. Since a number of those to-be-moved sentences refer to varieties and not dialects, the Dialects section might be renamed "Varieties and dialects". If variety is just a poor choice of word, then could those sentences be reworded so that they provided an introduction at the beginning of the Dialects section? What do other editors think? After the lead is cleared out, then a couple of summarizing sentences could be added, such as "Like Turkish and Georgian it is an agglutinative language." Comments? -- Bejnar ( talk) 08:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)