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Chris Nadeau says Avalon Hill is not a subsidiary of Hasbro but is accurately considered an imprint of Hasbro Gaming. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.56.97 ( talk) 16:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Didn't Avalon Hill also pioneer the concept of using a hexagonal grid? I seem to recall (and this is totally off the top of my head, so I could be wrong) that the very first Avalon Hill wargame used a square grid, but it was realized that this posed too many problems with movement and other issues, so the idea of the hexagon was introduced. Does anyone know if this is true? soulpatch
If I remember correctly, yes, the first wargame to use hexes was James Dunnigan's Jutland game for AH. If anyone has access to Dunnigan's book, Complete Handbook to Wargames, it should confirm this. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the book right now... -- patton1138 16:39, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here's a blurb from a review on Gettysburg: 1958 Gettysburg was before hexes were used in wargames. In 1961, Charles Roberts first adapted hexes, and came out with an astonishing number of hex wargames that year. It's hard to tell which one was the "first" hex wargame, but I seem to remember him once writing that it was D-Day. But I've heard Chancellorsville from someone else, so am not sure. [2] -- patton1138 01:39, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Checking the index to the 1992 edition of Dunnigan's The Complete Wargames Handbook doesn't seem to turn up any mentions of pioneering use of hexagons with his Jutland game. However, Peter P. Perla's 1990 The Art of Wargaming does mention on pages 115-116: "In games such as Chancellorsville and D-Day, the original square grid was replaced by the hexagonal pattern in common use today. The source for this innovation, one of the most influential devices ever employed in the hobby, was the Rand Corporation.
"In the early 1950s Rand had contacted Roberts and in a circumspect manner inquired about the source of the CRT used in Tactics (and virtually all of the early Avalon Hill Games). Roberts's CRT bore an uncanny resemblance 'to the more complex one that Rand was using to wargame World War III and other horrors.' The fact was probably somewhat embarrassing to Rand when they discovered that Roberts had devised his table on his own, basing it on the popular military notion that an attacker required a three-to-one superiority in order to be reasonably assured of success. After this encounter with the think-tank wargamers, Roberts visited the Rand gaming facilities and noted that they were using a hexagonal grid. This grid allowed movement between adjacent hexagons (or hexes, as they are more frequently called) to be more equidistant, whereas movement along the diagonals of a square grid covered more distance than movement across the sides of the squares. Roberts immediately saw the usefulness of this technique and adopted it his subsequent games." – WendellM 17:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Rand, in turn, got the hexgrid concept from John von Neumann, the Austrian mathematician, who used hexgrid maps to grid economic activity across a region in 1940.
Note: Main page needs to add a link to Blitzkrieg, IMO most famous game. I don't want to just add a link, because it may get ambiguated into the German word for ``lightning war." llywrch 17:50 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC)
I added mention of Charles S. Roberts, the founder of company. I didn't know whether to use Charles S. Roberts or just Charles Roberts. So I used the former since this is how he is referred to on the Avalon Hill history link. Feel free to change it if he is more well known without the middle initial. — Frecklefoot
I don't really think Avalon Hill should be listed as a "Defunct companies" (category). It is now a brand of Hasbro. So, in a way, it's still around. — Frecklefoot | Talk 22:52, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
They made one that did poorly (their attempt at their board game Civilization). This was not their main claim to fame, however, so I don't think it is appropriate to list them as such. They were known for their board and table-top games. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:33, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
I've seen reference to the game "Class Struggle", with note that it was an Avalon Hill game, but can't actually find the game anywhere to find out if this is correct. Anyone else know? - FZ 00:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it was also an AH game. I have a copy that is probably a 2nd Ed. I literally just packed it away this evening and can't remember the date, but think it was from the early 80s. It's in a brown box and has a picture of Marx on the cover.
Would anyone mind if we separate, in the listing, the games that were published post-Hasbro from those published pre-Hasbro? Not only would it better represent the shift in marketing and target audience during this time, but will also help answer any questions regarding which games were from which incarnation. If no one objects within 24 hours, I'll make the proper modifications to the page. -- patton1138 19:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Just in case you want feedback, I think this page looks really good now. -- Mike Selinker (former AH lead developer)
The link for "Republic of Rome" is directed to a historical page rather than one for the game. Sawatts 20:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi - I put these in, and User:Frecklefoot took them out. I sympathise - if they weren't necessary I'd rather not have them, but they are necessary for the A-Z links to work. Without them, the links to (e.g.) "D" will always go to the original Avalon Hill "D", regardless of whether you click on the original D or the Hasbro D. Percy Snoodle 14:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Does nobody else find it odd to have a list of games that is far longer than the body of the article, and contains mainly red links? To me this is a perfect example of what the {{cleanup-list}} tag is for, but there seems to be some disagreement on that point. - Stellmach 21:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Though this is a little late in the game, per the discussion above, I created the Avalon Hill category. Feel free to add it to any Avalon Hill-related articles you come across or create. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Over its life, AH published a goodly number of computer games. These are pretty much unrepresented, except for the occasional Achtung Spitfire! edit conflict. I'm thinking we might want to give those their own list (presumably on the new list page...) to prevent confusion with AH's much better known non-computer game lines.
Heck, do we want to go into the various imprints, like the Sports Illustrated line they had? -- Rindis 16:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes I agree computer titles should be listed separate from board games. I think that would be easy enough to start now and fill in over time once the list is started. -- Stbalbach 03:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I found an article about A.H.'s software division ( http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki/index.php?title=Avalon_Hill) on a VIC-20 computer forum. The article is small, but does provide a photo of the division's catalog, which proves that it existed.-- Drvanthorp ( talk) 22:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Squad Leader is not mentioned in an AH article?!? Dominick (TALK) 03:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the current entry's description of AH in past-tense terms, and I think that it should remain unchanged. The 60s purchase by Monarch left the company's game line and purpose largely unchanged, but the 90s purchase by Hasbro changed things massively (i.e. essentially destroyed them and turned the company name into a mere boxtop logo). While the "Avalon Hill" name may live on, it no longer represents what it once did at all, and I think that the current past-tense phrasing reflects this perfectly. – WendellM 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The article tells when Hasbro bought the AH IP, but not when Hasbro put the AH operation under Wizards of the Coast. Kind of an important transition. Isaac R ( talk) 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Another AH product that seems to be missing from this article, the accompanying template, and any mention in Wikipedia at all, is their 1971 product Luftwaffe. BSVulturis ( talk) 05:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I've upped this article to C class. It could use a little more detailed history and assiduous citations, but I think it could make B class pretty easily.
It's a topic that deserves GA/FA treatment. :) -- Neopeius ( talk) 00:56, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Since Hasbro has already released a project through their Pulse website for Avalon Hill, then Avalon Hill is technically active under Hasbro, not Wizards now in 2020, even though articles state Hasbro will not take over until 2021, so have adjusted the company info section to reflect actual events rather than just spoken words. Avalon Hill products are being "sold" in 2020. shadzar- talk 04:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Certainly as of 10th January 2022, the current image shown as Avalon Hill's logo is no longer current. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sslaxx ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
This article lists Tactics II as Avalon Hill's first published game and cites an article in The Urbanite magazine and an About.com article. However, Avalon Hill's own newsletter/magazine, The General, states that Gettysburg was their first published game.
From The Avalon Hill General, Volume 1, No. 1:
"Incorporated in 1958 Avalon Hill's first games were Gettysburg, Tactics II and Dispatcher (chronological appearance on the market for each game is indicated by the code number printed on the box; Gettysburg - 501, Tactics II - 502, etc.)."
I wanted to bring this up on the Talk page for discussion prior to editing the entry. EvaUnit02 ( talk) 21:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
EvaUnit02: I made the change: Special:Diff/1198313321/1210885391 - thank you for discovering this source and correction to the historical record. -- Green C 20:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
This article states (without a source) the company was founded in 1952. Maybe, but recall that Roberts began designing the game in 1952, and did not publish it until 1954, at which time he used a professional distributor and printer. He had no finished product in 1952, it's unclear the company was founded at the time. In fact he initially made the game as a self-teaching tool while he waited to be admitted into the armed forces - this background has yet to be added anywhere on wikipedia but can be sourced. -- Green C 16:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
In 1991 they published "Tale from the Floating Vagabond" et al, another RPG. TeigeRyan ( talk) 17:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
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Chris Nadeau says Avalon Hill is not a subsidiary of Hasbro but is accurately considered an imprint of Hasbro Gaming. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.56.97 ( talk) 16:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Didn't Avalon Hill also pioneer the concept of using a hexagonal grid? I seem to recall (and this is totally off the top of my head, so I could be wrong) that the very first Avalon Hill wargame used a square grid, but it was realized that this posed too many problems with movement and other issues, so the idea of the hexagon was introduced. Does anyone know if this is true? soulpatch
If I remember correctly, yes, the first wargame to use hexes was James Dunnigan's Jutland game for AH. If anyone has access to Dunnigan's book, Complete Handbook to Wargames, it should confirm this. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the book right now... -- patton1138 16:39, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Here's a blurb from a review on Gettysburg: 1958 Gettysburg was before hexes were used in wargames. In 1961, Charles Roberts first adapted hexes, and came out with an astonishing number of hex wargames that year. It's hard to tell which one was the "first" hex wargame, but I seem to remember him once writing that it was D-Day. But I've heard Chancellorsville from someone else, so am not sure. [2] -- patton1138 01:39, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Checking the index to the 1992 edition of Dunnigan's The Complete Wargames Handbook doesn't seem to turn up any mentions of pioneering use of hexagons with his Jutland game. However, Peter P. Perla's 1990 The Art of Wargaming does mention on pages 115-116: "In games such as Chancellorsville and D-Day, the original square grid was replaced by the hexagonal pattern in common use today. The source for this innovation, one of the most influential devices ever employed in the hobby, was the Rand Corporation.
"In the early 1950s Rand had contacted Roberts and in a circumspect manner inquired about the source of the CRT used in Tactics (and virtually all of the early Avalon Hill Games). Roberts's CRT bore an uncanny resemblance 'to the more complex one that Rand was using to wargame World War III and other horrors.' The fact was probably somewhat embarrassing to Rand when they discovered that Roberts had devised his table on his own, basing it on the popular military notion that an attacker required a three-to-one superiority in order to be reasonably assured of success. After this encounter with the think-tank wargamers, Roberts visited the Rand gaming facilities and noted that they were using a hexagonal grid. This grid allowed movement between adjacent hexagons (or hexes, as they are more frequently called) to be more equidistant, whereas movement along the diagonals of a square grid covered more distance than movement across the sides of the squares. Roberts immediately saw the usefulness of this technique and adopted it his subsequent games." – WendellM 17:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Rand, in turn, got the hexgrid concept from John von Neumann, the Austrian mathematician, who used hexgrid maps to grid economic activity across a region in 1940.
Note: Main page needs to add a link to Blitzkrieg, IMO most famous game. I don't want to just add a link, because it may get ambiguated into the German word for ``lightning war." llywrch 17:50 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC)
I added mention of Charles S. Roberts, the founder of company. I didn't know whether to use Charles S. Roberts or just Charles Roberts. So I used the former since this is how he is referred to on the Avalon Hill history link. Feel free to change it if he is more well known without the middle initial. — Frecklefoot
I don't really think Avalon Hill should be listed as a "Defunct companies" (category). It is now a brand of Hasbro. So, in a way, it's still around. — Frecklefoot | Talk 22:52, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)
They made one that did poorly (their attempt at their board game Civilization). This was not their main claim to fame, however, so I don't think it is appropriate to list them as such. They were known for their board and table-top games. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:33, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
I've seen reference to the game "Class Struggle", with note that it was an Avalon Hill game, but can't actually find the game anywhere to find out if this is correct. Anyone else know? - FZ 00:01, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it was also an AH game. I have a copy that is probably a 2nd Ed. I literally just packed it away this evening and can't remember the date, but think it was from the early 80s. It's in a brown box and has a picture of Marx on the cover.
Would anyone mind if we separate, in the listing, the games that were published post-Hasbro from those published pre-Hasbro? Not only would it better represent the shift in marketing and target audience during this time, but will also help answer any questions regarding which games were from which incarnation. If no one objects within 24 hours, I'll make the proper modifications to the page. -- patton1138 19:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Just in case you want feedback, I think this page looks really good now. -- Mike Selinker (former AH lead developer)
The link for "Republic of Rome" is directed to a historical page rather than one for the game. Sawatts 20:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi - I put these in, and User:Frecklefoot took them out. I sympathise - if they weren't necessary I'd rather not have them, but they are necessary for the A-Z links to work. Without them, the links to (e.g.) "D" will always go to the original Avalon Hill "D", regardless of whether you click on the original D or the Hasbro D. Percy Snoodle 14:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Does nobody else find it odd to have a list of games that is far longer than the body of the article, and contains mainly red links? To me this is a perfect example of what the {{cleanup-list}} tag is for, but there seems to be some disagreement on that point. - Stellmach 21:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Though this is a little late in the game, per the discussion above, I created the Avalon Hill category. Feel free to add it to any Avalon Hill-related articles you come across or create. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Over its life, AH published a goodly number of computer games. These are pretty much unrepresented, except for the occasional Achtung Spitfire! edit conflict. I'm thinking we might want to give those their own list (presumably on the new list page...) to prevent confusion with AH's much better known non-computer game lines.
Heck, do we want to go into the various imprints, like the Sports Illustrated line they had? -- Rindis 16:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes I agree computer titles should be listed separate from board games. I think that would be easy enough to start now and fill in over time once the list is started. -- Stbalbach 03:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I found an article about A.H.'s software division ( http://sleepingelephant.com/denial/wiki/index.php?title=Avalon_Hill) on a VIC-20 computer forum. The article is small, but does provide a photo of the division's catalog, which proves that it existed.-- Drvanthorp ( talk) 22:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Squad Leader is not mentioned in an AH article?!? Dominick (TALK) 03:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the current entry's description of AH in past-tense terms, and I think that it should remain unchanged. The 60s purchase by Monarch left the company's game line and purpose largely unchanged, but the 90s purchase by Hasbro changed things massively (i.e. essentially destroyed them and turned the company name into a mere boxtop logo). While the "Avalon Hill" name may live on, it no longer represents what it once did at all, and I think that the current past-tense phrasing reflects this perfectly. – WendellM 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The article tells when Hasbro bought the AH IP, but not when Hasbro put the AH operation under Wizards of the Coast. Kind of an important transition. Isaac R ( talk) 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Another AH product that seems to be missing from this article, the accompanying template, and any mention in Wikipedia at all, is their 1971 product Luftwaffe. BSVulturis ( talk) 05:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I've upped this article to C class. It could use a little more detailed history and assiduous citations, but I think it could make B class pretty easily.
It's a topic that deserves GA/FA treatment. :) -- Neopeius ( talk) 00:56, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Since Hasbro has already released a project through their Pulse website for Avalon Hill, then Avalon Hill is technically active under Hasbro, not Wizards now in 2020, even though articles state Hasbro will not take over until 2021, so have adjusted the company info section to reflect actual events rather than just spoken words. Avalon Hill products are being "sold" in 2020. shadzar- talk 04:19, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Certainly as of 10th January 2022, the current image shown as Avalon Hill's logo is no longer current. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sslaxx ( talk • contribs) 11:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
This article lists Tactics II as Avalon Hill's first published game and cites an article in The Urbanite magazine and an About.com article. However, Avalon Hill's own newsletter/magazine, The General, states that Gettysburg was their first published game.
From The Avalon Hill General, Volume 1, No. 1:
"Incorporated in 1958 Avalon Hill's first games were Gettysburg, Tactics II and Dispatcher (chronological appearance on the market for each game is indicated by the code number printed on the box; Gettysburg - 501, Tactics II - 502, etc.)."
I wanted to bring this up on the Talk page for discussion prior to editing the entry. EvaUnit02 ( talk) 21:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
EvaUnit02: I made the change: Special:Diff/1198313321/1210885391 - thank you for discovering this source and correction to the historical record. -- Green C 20:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
This article states (without a source) the company was founded in 1952. Maybe, but recall that Roberts began designing the game in 1952, and did not publish it until 1954, at which time he used a professional distributor and printer. He had no finished product in 1952, it's unclear the company was founded at the time. In fact he initially made the game as a self-teaching tool while he waited to be admitted into the armed forces - this background has yet to be added anywhere on wikipedia but can be sourced. -- Green C 16:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
In 1991 they published "Tale from the Floating Vagabond" et al, another RPG. TeigeRyan ( talk) 17:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)