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I spent some time this evening reading the article and making what I hoped to be stylistic improvements. There is a significant amount of "claims" in the article, but they are not referenced. Agreed that there are references to outside links, but wouldn't it be better when making a statement to link to the person or group that made the statement or claim?
The differentiation between adult autistics and child autistics is clear, but the tension between the needs of the two groups could be more dramatic by defining the needs of the children. I think the needs of the adults appears as the current focus.
Having a nephew who is autistic, I find much of the claims of this article to be incredulous. Further, I taught two autistic teenagers during my college days and there is a marked differentiation between an autistic possessing high function and those without. This articles attempts to claim autistics are simply part of the diverse fabric of humanity. I accept this claim because they are first are foremost human, but I reject the claim that there is nothing to "cure". Tell that to a child who has been brought into the light of communicaton with others. If an individual can not communicate with others, they can not interact. Without interaction there is no social structure in which to participate. Providing some hard facts on the difficulties faced by autistics would provide a much needed dose of reality to this article. Storm Rider 07:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Stormrider, there is no tension between adult and autistics who are children. Please Just because you find it incredulous it is your POV. Please try to NPOV. Have you seen www.gettingthetruthout.com ?? There are low functioning non autistics. DO you need a cure because of that???? Alos if you want to be taken seriously use your real name JoeMele 21:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
On the contrary, I think Storm Rider's comments are RIGHT ON THE MONEY and they are basically the problems this article faces. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh and THANKS A MILLION for the edits to the article. Please don't let anything turn you away :). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh and i had no problem with the edits except one. It is POV in the talk page JoeMele 22:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Finally, use my real name to be taken seriously??? Joey, I know very few people on WIKI that use their real name as their moniker. I, nor anyone I know on WIKI, perceive the use of moniker's as a loss of credibility. That is a personal issue that you have and you will have to deal with it. BUT, if you want my real name it is Michael and on WIKI I am known as, Storm Rider 02:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Storm Rider, I note your concern that organizations of adult autistics dont speak for everyone is laughable. No one asks or tells this to NAAR or CAN or the hideoulsy name autism speaks where you have NTs and no autistics at all. This is about the challenges that both adults and children autistics face from a hostile NT world. JoeMele 04:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Two wrongs do not make a right, Joe. Storm, I agree that we need sourcing and (quite a lot of) NPOV. Another good step would probably be to cleanup the external links, which are currently largely blogs and non notable pro/anti cure sites. Lord Patrick 06:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
This is such a great topic! My only objective is to attempt to make it a better article. I am not interested in taking sides; for me there are no sides and I don't find a right or wrong way to any position. On WIKI our objective is to present topics fairly in a balanced manner. You guys are obviously more invested in the topic than me, but from an outsider's my contention would still be that it is not balanced. Joe, I do not wish to offend you, but you might try to write the article from the "other" perspective. Storm Rider 00:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact it is not balanced is merely your POV and a few others. There is a movement on the Wiki to silence the autistic point of view so that only the curebies one exist. JoeMele 14:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Stop the Tern-like conspiracy theories, Joe. Oh, and I partially retract my statement on the external links, after seeing some of the cleanup Ryan has done. Lord Patrick 22:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to resolve the above concerns of lack of balance with the controversy section. What I have added so far is only a start and I think more can be added to all sections. Q0 05:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to merge that section into the Speculation of famous people who might have autism. I believe the content that talks about what people in the autism rights movement think of the speculation should stay in the autism rights movement article, but some of the details about who is speculated and the for/against arguments of them are more appropriate in the Speculation of famous people who might have autism article. I think the same thing was suggested in the peer review. Q0 07:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I unmerged the content about the Autism Awareness Campaign UK and Autism Awareness Campaign Sri Lanka because they were merged without discussion, and it isn't appropriate to merge without discussion. In addition, someone else already unmerged AAC UK on its own page. There is a discussion going on now at Talk:Autism Awareness Campaign UK but merging shouldn't take place until the discussion has finished. These campaigns also appear to be part of a movement separate from the autism rights movement. Q0 08:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
These are the external links that were removed in this edit [1]. I am copying them here because I believe significant amounts of removed content should be brought to the talk page and someone might know another article that some of the external links can be moved to. Q0 17:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I wrote that Michelle Dawson's open letter received 52 signatures before the deadline, and someone else changed it to say 92. When I counted, I counted 52. I can see how I could miscount by one or two but I don't expect to be off by 40. Why was this changed? Q0 13:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Something interesting I found which could be worked into this article or the ABA article is this: Homosexuality#Behaviour_modification. Neurodivergent 18:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights has a box to the right that makes it easy to access other relevant pages. Can this page, or all autism pages, have such a box to make it simpler to find other relevant pages please. eg, community, culture, rights etc. I could make one myself, but I assume that we need agreement on the content and design. Something with the infinity sign would be nice, gay rights has the representative rainbow colours.
AmyNelson 22:22, 6 Feb 2006
Thanks Q0. I think it needs to be at the top of the page the same as the gay rights one is. It could also be made more attractive as theres is, though that is just aesthetic. AmyNelson 22:22, 16 Feb 2006
Done - I think it turned out pretty well. I've done the same for some of our pro-cure pages as well - see Template:Autism_cure_movement. Just another star in the night T | @ | C 22:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The size of the article is getting to be a bit long. The issues section is the longest, about 14k, and the controversy section is about 10k. The whole article right now is about 41k. I don't think anything needs to be done right away, but it might be necessary to keep an eye on it and move detail to new articles if it gets bigger. Q0 06:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
What would those articles be??
JoeMele
01:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if Temple Grandin and Donna Williams (author) should be listed under the "Individuals" section of the article. I know that Temple Grandin has expressed views that autism can be something positive, and has expressed opposition to eliminating all aspects of autism, so Temple Grandin does have agreement with the base values of the movement. However, I don't recall her ever specifically identifying with the movement, so I don't know if it would be appropriate to list her or not. I don't know much about Donna Williams, but her name seems to come up a lot in discussions of autistic advocacy, but again, I don't know if she identifies as part of the movement or not. Q0 13:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned with the following statement in the "Individuals" section of the article:
It seems a bit strong, especially since it doesn't have a reference. I've seen most of the people on the list criticized even by those from within the movement. I think it might be best to reword the statement. Q0 00:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned with the edit [2] to the alleged insulting view of autism section. The edit moved a large amount of content to the caption of the ribbon. I think significant amounts of content is better in the text of the article and not as a caption. I think it really seems best to keep captions of images small. In addition, the edit changed "Autistics.Org has a button that reads "I am not a puzzle, I am a person" to "However, some autistics ... believe they are not a puzzle to be solved but a real person instead." The original version attributes the claim about autistics being people not puzzles to Autistics.Org and the edit attributes it to some autistics. I really think the original version is better because it attributes who is making a claim instead of simply saying that some people have made the claim. I also think the following removed statements should be added back into the article:
The movement is largely Internet based so I think reporting what these websits have done is noteworthy enough for an article. I am open to rewording those statements if necessary. Q0 02:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I was featured in an article for Newsday Nov 2000. As a Long Island Innovator with my picture. It talked about my software and my company. A person called brossow is choosing to ignore that. Afraid of the anti-cure perspective JoeMele 03:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
tough it stays JoeMele
Then what criteria are you using for singer or sinclair or baggs?? All very important peopl in the next civil rights movement. I suspect your motivation is the fear of aspergian identity and the anti-cure perspective than anything else. This is a fight that we must win our continued survial as a people depend on it. JoeMele 04:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Pages like WP:BIO provide guidelines for notability for a person to have their own article. The issue of Joe Mele's notability is to include him in the "Individuals" section, not to have his own article. Is the same criteria used for notability of a person's article the same as the criteria for being mentioned in another article? Q0 12:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I spent some time this evening reading the article and making what I hoped to be stylistic improvements. There is a significant amount of "claims" in the article, but they are not referenced. Agreed that there are references to outside links, but wouldn't it be better when making a statement to link to the person or group that made the statement or claim?
The differentiation between adult autistics and child autistics is clear, but the tension between the needs of the two groups could be more dramatic by defining the needs of the children. I think the needs of the adults appears as the current focus.
Having a nephew who is autistic, I find much of the claims of this article to be incredulous. Further, I taught two autistic teenagers during my college days and there is a marked differentiation between an autistic possessing high function and those without. This articles attempts to claim autistics are simply part of the diverse fabric of humanity. I accept this claim because they are first are foremost human, but I reject the claim that there is nothing to "cure". Tell that to a child who has been brought into the light of communicaton with others. If an individual can not communicate with others, they can not interact. Without interaction there is no social structure in which to participate. Providing some hard facts on the difficulties faced by autistics would provide a much needed dose of reality to this article. Storm Rider 07:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Stormrider, there is no tension between adult and autistics who are children. Please Just because you find it incredulous it is your POV. Please try to NPOV. Have you seen www.gettingthetruthout.com ?? There are low functioning non autistics. DO you need a cure because of that???? Alos if you want to be taken seriously use your real name JoeMele 21:26, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
On the contrary, I think Storm Rider's comments are RIGHT ON THE MONEY and they are basically the problems this article faces. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:38, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh and THANKS A MILLION for the edits to the article. Please don't let anything turn you away :). Ryan Norton T | @ | C 21:48, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh and i had no problem with the edits except one. It is POV in the talk page JoeMele 22:01, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Finally, use my real name to be taken seriously??? Joey, I know very few people on WIKI that use their real name as their moniker. I, nor anyone I know on WIKI, perceive the use of moniker's as a loss of credibility. That is a personal issue that you have and you will have to deal with it. BUT, if you want my real name it is Michael and on WIKI I am known as, Storm Rider 02:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Storm Rider, I note your concern that organizations of adult autistics dont speak for everyone is laughable. No one asks or tells this to NAAR or CAN or the hideoulsy name autism speaks where you have NTs and no autistics at all. This is about the challenges that both adults and children autistics face from a hostile NT world. JoeMele 04:01, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Two wrongs do not make a right, Joe. Storm, I agree that we need sourcing and (quite a lot of) NPOV. Another good step would probably be to cleanup the external links, which are currently largely blogs and non notable pro/anti cure sites. Lord Patrick 06:22, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
This is such a great topic! My only objective is to attempt to make it a better article. I am not interested in taking sides; for me there are no sides and I don't find a right or wrong way to any position. On WIKI our objective is to present topics fairly in a balanced manner. You guys are obviously more invested in the topic than me, but from an outsider's my contention would still be that it is not balanced. Joe, I do not wish to offend you, but you might try to write the article from the "other" perspective. Storm Rider 00:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
The fact it is not balanced is merely your POV and a few others. There is a movement on the Wiki to silence the autistic point of view so that only the curebies one exist. JoeMele 14:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Stop the Tern-like conspiracy theories, Joe. Oh, and I partially retract my statement on the external links, after seeing some of the cleanup Ryan has done. Lord Patrick 22:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to resolve the above concerns of lack of balance with the controversy section. What I have added so far is only a start and I think more can be added to all sections. Q0 05:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to merge that section into the Speculation of famous people who might have autism. I believe the content that talks about what people in the autism rights movement think of the speculation should stay in the autism rights movement article, but some of the details about who is speculated and the for/against arguments of them are more appropriate in the Speculation of famous people who might have autism article. I think the same thing was suggested in the peer review. Q0 07:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I unmerged the content about the Autism Awareness Campaign UK and Autism Awareness Campaign Sri Lanka because they were merged without discussion, and it isn't appropriate to merge without discussion. In addition, someone else already unmerged AAC UK on its own page. There is a discussion going on now at Talk:Autism Awareness Campaign UK but merging shouldn't take place until the discussion has finished. These campaigns also appear to be part of a movement separate from the autism rights movement. Q0 08:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
These are the external links that were removed in this edit [1]. I am copying them here because I believe significant amounts of removed content should be brought to the talk page and someone might know another article that some of the external links can be moved to. Q0 17:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I wrote that Michelle Dawson's open letter received 52 signatures before the deadline, and someone else changed it to say 92. When I counted, I counted 52. I can see how I could miscount by one or two but I don't expect to be off by 40. Why was this changed? Q0 13:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Something interesting I found which could be worked into this article or the ABA article is this: Homosexuality#Behaviour_modification. Neurodivergent 18:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights has a box to the right that makes it easy to access other relevant pages. Can this page, or all autism pages, have such a box to make it simpler to find other relevant pages please. eg, community, culture, rights etc. I could make one myself, but I assume that we need agreement on the content and design. Something with the infinity sign would be nice, gay rights has the representative rainbow colours.
AmyNelson 22:22, 6 Feb 2006
Thanks Q0. I think it needs to be at the top of the page the same as the gay rights one is. It could also be made more attractive as theres is, though that is just aesthetic. AmyNelson 22:22, 16 Feb 2006
Done - I think it turned out pretty well. I've done the same for some of our pro-cure pages as well - see Template:Autism_cure_movement. Just another star in the night T | @ | C 22:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
The size of the article is getting to be a bit long. The issues section is the longest, about 14k, and the controversy section is about 10k. The whole article right now is about 41k. I don't think anything needs to be done right away, but it might be necessary to keep an eye on it and move detail to new articles if it gets bigger. Q0 06:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
What would those articles be??
JoeMele
01:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if Temple Grandin and Donna Williams (author) should be listed under the "Individuals" section of the article. I know that Temple Grandin has expressed views that autism can be something positive, and has expressed opposition to eliminating all aspects of autism, so Temple Grandin does have agreement with the base values of the movement. However, I don't recall her ever specifically identifying with the movement, so I don't know if it would be appropriate to list her or not. I don't know much about Donna Williams, but her name seems to come up a lot in discussions of autistic advocacy, but again, I don't know if she identifies as part of the movement or not. Q0 13:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned with the following statement in the "Individuals" section of the article:
It seems a bit strong, especially since it doesn't have a reference. I've seen most of the people on the list criticized even by those from within the movement. I think it might be best to reword the statement. Q0 00:19, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned with the edit [2] to the alleged insulting view of autism section. The edit moved a large amount of content to the caption of the ribbon. I think significant amounts of content is better in the text of the article and not as a caption. I think it really seems best to keep captions of images small. In addition, the edit changed "Autistics.Org has a button that reads "I am not a puzzle, I am a person" to "However, some autistics ... believe they are not a puzzle to be solved but a real person instead." The original version attributes the claim about autistics being people not puzzles to Autistics.Org and the edit attributes it to some autistics. I really think the original version is better because it attributes who is making a claim instead of simply saying that some people have made the claim. I also think the following removed statements should be added back into the article:
The movement is largely Internet based so I think reporting what these websits have done is noteworthy enough for an article. I am open to rewording those statements if necessary. Q0 02:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I was featured in an article for Newsday Nov 2000. As a Long Island Innovator with my picture. It talked about my software and my company. A person called brossow is choosing to ignore that. Afraid of the anti-cure perspective JoeMele 03:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
tough it stays JoeMele
Then what criteria are you using for singer or sinclair or baggs?? All very important peopl in the next civil rights movement. I suspect your motivation is the fear of aspergian identity and the anti-cure perspective than anything else. This is a fight that we must win our continued survial as a people depend on it. JoeMele 04:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Pages like WP:BIO provide guidelines for notability for a person to have their own article. The issue of Joe Mele's notability is to include him in the "Individuals" section, not to have his own article. Is the same criteria used for notability of a person's article the same as the criteria for being mentioned in another article? Q0 12:41, 5 April 2006 (UTC)