This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Austrasia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Not trying to be a pain, but DW created this, I think -- could someone look at this picture copyright infor. I'll check tomorrow, but it looks very much IIRC like one in Hollister's history of Medieval Europe -- the fonts are not very common. Like I said, I'll check, but it would be good to make sure. JHK
The article says: "After the death of the Frankish king Clovis I in 511, his kingdom was partitioned among his four sons, Theuderic I receiving Austrasia."
Excuse me again, please -- As to the old fashioned hand-drawn map creation, it seems to look like a touched-up version from Bullfinch, 1913 if memory serves me correct. I think I may have seen variations of this in several places. But, we should wait for Ms. JHK. Thank you, and may the Prophet bless your good efforts. Triton 13:31 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Thank you, Mr. djmutex, sir. I was only shooting off the top of my head (plus I am not a qualified historian) so didn't want to change the article without any sort of proper information to back it up. I'll reword it shortly and maybe see if I can find a little more about this when I get the chance. Thank you for your assistance, sir. Have a joyous visit at Wikipedia. Triton 13:41 31 May 2003 (UTC)
The article refers to the Merovingians but the map clearly shows regions like Bavaria already under Frankian rule. Isn't this a bit of an anachronism? I think the map is more Karolingian than Merovingian. That also affects the definition of Austrasia. I dont think it stretched as far east in Merovingian times.
af:Gebruiker:Jcwf
Maybe I'm daft to reply to a 12-year-old thread. But, if it would help, I could put the maps at http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0020 onto commons. The last two insets show borders for Austrasia, in 561 and 587. Maproom ( talk) 13:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
"Austria" may indeed be connected to "east", but this is less than obvious. If it does, some linguistic explanation is needed. The name would be practically Common Germanic, * Austro-. In Latin, it doesn't mean anything like "east" but much rather "south" (as in australis). -- dab (𒁳) 15:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Last time I checked, the Franks were Germanic -- 82.47.43.217 ( talk) 17:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
"Austria" is a corruption of that country's German name, Österreich, which certainly does mean Eastern land. I don't really see where Latin comes into the matter. 74.101.26.69 ( talk)
Agreed - this is a latinisation of Ēostre, a dawn deity that denotes the East. "Etymology: Ēostre derives from Proto-Germanic *austrō, ultimately from a PIE root *au̯es-, "to shine" and closely related to the name of the dawn goddess, *h2ausōs, whence Greek Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas." 128.250.5.247 ( talk) 05:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
And where the Dawn comes from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice if a better map could be found. The current map is clearly wrong, since the current Flanders, Hainaut, Nord and Picardy were Salian and thus part of Neustria, while the current Gelderland, Overijssel en Drenthe were Saxon, and thus not part of Austrasia. Regards JRB-Europe ( talk) 10:59, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
ei — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.97.114 ( talk) 09:16, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This came up concerning the map, in discussion above, long ago. I have been looking on and off, ever since. Apart from a few such maps, all the evidence I keep finding seems to indicate that the Silva carbonaria was seen as the boundary. Ulrich Nonn's Pagus und Comitatus gives a literature review and shows medieval examples of it being used this way. So does anyone have any evidence at all for the question in this section title?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Quote from Nonn p.229, after having mentioned how Clovis was recorded as having the forest as his border with the Cologne franks (until he conquered them): Diese Auffassung des Kohlenwaldes als Grenze Austrasiens spiegelt sich auch noch in späteren Quellen. So schreibt der Lütticher Kanoniker Nikolaus (1. Hälfte XII. Jahrhundert) in seiner Bearbeitung der Vita Landiberti: Austria dicebatur ea pars regni Francorum, que a Burgundia usque in mare Fresonum extenditur et hinc Reno, illinc silva Carbonaria seu Argonaria concluditur. Mit unzeitgemäẞen Ausdrücken umreiẞt im XI. Jahrhundert die Vita s. Evermari die Ausdehnung Austrasiens zur Zeit Pippins d. M.: Germaniae monarchiam, a silva Carbonaria usque Rhenum, et a Mosa usque Mosellam.
--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
10:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Austrasia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Not trying to be a pain, but DW created this, I think -- could someone look at this picture copyright infor. I'll check tomorrow, but it looks very much IIRC like one in Hollister's history of Medieval Europe -- the fonts are not very common. Like I said, I'll check, but it would be good to make sure. JHK
The article says: "After the death of the Frankish king Clovis I in 511, his kingdom was partitioned among his four sons, Theuderic I receiving Austrasia."
Excuse me again, please -- As to the old fashioned hand-drawn map creation, it seems to look like a touched-up version from Bullfinch, 1913 if memory serves me correct. I think I may have seen variations of this in several places. But, we should wait for Ms. JHK. Thank you, and may the Prophet bless your good efforts. Triton 13:31 31 May 2003 (UTC)
Thank you, Mr. djmutex, sir. I was only shooting off the top of my head (plus I am not a qualified historian) so didn't want to change the article without any sort of proper information to back it up. I'll reword it shortly and maybe see if I can find a little more about this when I get the chance. Thank you for your assistance, sir. Have a joyous visit at Wikipedia. Triton 13:41 31 May 2003 (UTC)
The article refers to the Merovingians but the map clearly shows regions like Bavaria already under Frankian rule. Isn't this a bit of an anachronism? I think the map is more Karolingian than Merovingian. That also affects the definition of Austrasia. I dont think it stretched as far east in Merovingian times.
af:Gebruiker:Jcwf
Maybe I'm daft to reply to a 12-year-old thread. But, if it would help, I could put the maps at http://www.maproom.org/00/08/present.php?m=0020 onto commons. The last two insets show borders for Austrasia, in 561 and 587. Maproom ( talk) 13:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
"Austria" may indeed be connected to "east", but this is less than obvious. If it does, some linguistic explanation is needed. The name would be practically Common Germanic, * Austro-. In Latin, it doesn't mean anything like "east" but much rather "south" (as in australis). -- dab (𒁳) 15:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Last time I checked, the Franks were Germanic -- 82.47.43.217 ( talk) 17:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
"Austria" is a corruption of that country's German name, Österreich, which certainly does mean Eastern land. I don't really see where Latin comes into the matter. 74.101.26.69 ( talk)
Agreed - this is a latinisation of Ēostre, a dawn deity that denotes the East. "Etymology: Ēostre derives from Proto-Germanic *austrō, ultimately from a PIE root *au̯es-, "to shine" and closely related to the name of the dawn goddess, *h2ausōs, whence Greek Eos, Roman Aurora and Indian Ushas." 128.250.5.247 ( talk) 05:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
And where the Dawn comes from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 ( talk • contribs) 09:40, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice if a better map could be found. The current map is clearly wrong, since the current Flanders, Hainaut, Nord and Picardy were Salian and thus part of Neustria, while the current Gelderland, Overijssel en Drenthe were Saxon, and thus not part of Austrasia. Regards JRB-Europe ( talk) 10:59, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
ei — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.97.114 ( talk) 09:16, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This came up concerning the map, in discussion above, long ago. I have been looking on and off, ever since. Apart from a few such maps, all the evidence I keep finding seems to indicate that the Silva carbonaria was seen as the boundary. Ulrich Nonn's Pagus und Comitatus gives a literature review and shows medieval examples of it being used this way. So does anyone have any evidence at all for the question in this section title?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Quote from Nonn p.229, after having mentioned how Clovis was recorded as having the forest as his border with the Cologne franks (until he conquered them): Diese Auffassung des Kohlenwaldes als Grenze Austrasiens spiegelt sich auch noch in späteren Quellen. So schreibt der Lütticher Kanoniker Nikolaus (1. Hälfte XII. Jahrhundert) in seiner Bearbeitung der Vita Landiberti: Austria dicebatur ea pars regni Francorum, que a Burgundia usque in mare Fresonum extenditur et hinc Reno, illinc silva Carbonaria seu Argonaria concluditur. Mit unzeitgemäẞen Ausdrücken umreiẞt im XI. Jahrhundert die Vita s. Evermari die Ausdehnung Austrasiens zur Zeit Pippins d. M.: Germaniae monarchiam, a silva Carbonaria usque Rhenum, et a Mosa usque Mosellam.
--
Andrew Lancaster (
talk)
10:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)