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This page needs followup to confirm which of the two universities in Munchen Mr. Vlaicu attended. See hidden comment in main page. -- Gary D 06:54, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess that the bill is here to show a portrait of him but is that really necessary? It seems so unrelated to the text... 89.136.41.31 ( talk) 09:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Apass
Claims made here must be viewed in the light of Protochronism - the widespread falsification of Romanian history (whereby they make absurd attempts to having invented nearly everything). All sources on Aurel Vlaicu are Romanian and are thus unreliable. No mention of him is to be found in contemporary western aviation sources. NiD.29 ( talk) 01:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Add the absurd claim about being the first military flight after the French when many other nations were already operating aircraft under the authority of the military, including operating flying schools for military aviators. Romania was preceded by France (1909), Italy (1910), Germany (1910), Russia (1910), and the US (1909) in using aircraft for military purposes. Just about the only major power left out is the UK.
RESPONSE: Why do you think that Romanian sources are unreliable?
RESPONSE: Flying airplanes by military officers trained as pilots does not mean using these aircraft for "military purposes". Vlaicu delivered an envelope to the Chief of Staff.
When the aircraft is owned and operated by the military then EVERYTHING IT DOES (including training military aviators) is for military purposes, unlike a civilian pilot in his own private aircraft delivering an envelope - something that likely occurred even in the UK before it did in Romania. NiD.29 ( talk) 02:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
RESPONSE: A. Vlaicu nr. I was build between Nov. 1909 and May 1010 with funding from the Romanian Minister of War. Months later they wanted to put the airplane to use, and it happened during the Fall Military Exercises. An there is a photograph for it in the article. In the spirit of Wikipedia, your claim "something that likely occurred even in the UK before it did in Romania" has to be substantiated with at least 1 (one) reference. Simiprof
RESPONSE: You make stereotypical statements, incompatible with a veteran Wikipedia editor. Maybe some Romanians living in the UK stole your spare tire lately, but that does not mean that Romanians are worthless. Simiprof
RESPONSE: Sorry NiD.29 ! You lack impartiality and I lack the time to argue with you. Simiprof
Russia formed an organization and raised money for military aircraft in January 1910 but didn't recieve their first military aircraft until 1911, though its pilots were in training during 1910 in France and from September in Russia. The German Army received its first aircraft (a Taube monoplane) in October 1910 but the first German military pilot had already soloed on 23 July 1910. I don't have much info on Serbian or Italian aviation, both of whom were also early adopters of aircraft. NiD.29 ( talk) 00:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
And please be reasonable to admit that the Vlaicu's cowled engines, particularly that of A. Vlaicu Nr. III is a NACA cowling: "The NACA cowling directs cool air to flow through the engine where it is routed across the motor's hottest parts, i.e. the cylinders and even more importantly, the cylinder heads."
All B/W photographs are over 100 years old. The color ones are mine. Please do not delete them en block.
Cheers, NiD.29 ( talk) 22:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
"Vlaicu III was seized and shipped to Germany, and it was last seen in 1942 at an aviation exhibition in Berlin." C-tin C. Gheorghiu cites two Romanian Air-force officers that saw the airplane in Berlin at the said exhibition.
Can somebody identify more of the people pictured here with Vlaicu?
Vlaicu with friends on Cotroceni air filed. From right to left: Caragiale (in the background, holding a walking cane), Magnani, Vlaicu, others. According to some reports, sitting in front of Vlaicu is his brother Ion
From left to right: Giovanni Magnani, Aurel Vlaicu, Ion Ciulu (Vlaicu's mechanic) and a friend in front of A. Vlaicu Nr. II
Can we keep some of the picture in the gallery? Certainly Wikipedia is not Pintrest, but the pictures add value to the article. Plus there are available nowhere else on the internet. Thank you! Simiprof ( talk) 15:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
[ANSWER]: Vlaicu himself was naming his airplanes "A Vlaicu" see:
I still believe that some gallery photos should be allowed. I am considering restoring some of them in the future. Regards, Simiprof ( talk) 16:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
37 images is surely far too many? I took a fairly random selection from the aviators list, unscientifically picked by recognising names from the days before WWI. On average, these have 4 images. Two exceptions were Lilienthal (& plus 4 in a gallery) and the Wright Brothers 35. I chose these for the unusual impact on aviation of these three men and think the others are more typical pioneers. TSRL ( talk) 21:19, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu did more than just to "write his name on an aeroplane". Those were his airplanes, substantially different than those of his contemporaries, for which he has been granted several international patents (British, Danish and German, in addition to a Romanian patent).
A. Vlaicu Nr. I flew for the first time on June 17, 1910 exactly as it was originally designed, with no modification whatsoever.
Vlaicu was the first to use two coaxial, counter-rotating propellers that canceled each other's reaction torque.
He was probably the first to install brakes to the wheels (rear wheel) of his airplane, and to fully cowl the engine - see A. Vlaicu Nr. III.
NOTE: I am considering displaying Vlaicu's pilot license in a gallery to the article, in addition to some of the above pics.
Regards,
Simiprof ( talk) 00:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the note, but I am not seeing two propellers on Howard Wright 1909 Biplane - it is a pusher that looks very much like a Voisin / Farman III, while Breguet flew after Vlaicu I. Simiprof ( talk) 01:12, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Please provide references of pre-Vlaicu I airplanes that had co-axial counter-rotating propellers. Those are visible in photographs, irrespective of Protochronism theories.
"well understood in aviation history circles" Who is aviation historian here by the way?! Simiprof ( talk) 02:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu's airplane did not go unnoticed during his lifetime. A delegate of
Marconi Co. selected his during the International Flight Week in Aspern-Vienna in the Summer of 1912 (there were 40 other aviators attending that event). When Vlaicu died a year later, two copies of A Vlaicu III airplanes were under construction, one for Marconi to evaluate it for use with aerial telegraphy, and one to remain with Vlaicu. I will upload the copy of a letter send by Vlaicu to his parents, where he mentions his relationship with Marconi Co. Of the two Vlaicu III airplanes, one was completed posthumously and disappeared during WWI. What is left of the other one is the
Gnome Gamma engine, now on display in a museum in Bucharest. Imagine - a brand new Gnome Gamma engine available for some enthusiasts to build a replica of A Vlaicu III!
Another remarkable thing about Vlaicu is that he build his airplanes on very tight budgets (around 15,000 Romanian lei each of his first two airplanes - an army lieutenant's salary then was 600 lei a month). When Bleriot came to Bucharest to fly on Oct. 1909, his remuneration was 80,000 lei! And you know what? The demonstration had to be postponed because at the first attempt, on Oct. 14, the propeller of Bleriot's airplane broke and they had to ship a new one from France.
Same as with the automobile, there were a number of engineers and inventors that contributed to the advancement of the airplane. (I am seeing now that the counter-rotating props were indeed tried before - thanks for the link.).
Let as not forget that this controversy started by having the gallery to the article removed entirely. Of those pics and photocopies, some are documents relevant to the life of Aurel Vlaicu - like for example his knowledge of Machine Elements and of German language (in addition to Romanian and Hungarian), or the network of friends (writers and journalists) that helped him during his short career in Bucharest.
So Dear Folks: Feel free to add galleries to other aviation pioneers' articles that you favor, but allow me to restore some of the gallery photos to this article. Thank you!
As for you NiD.29, I am sure you are nice in person. Unfortunately I don't see how we could meet so that you could prove me right. And yes, I am an university prof. Simiprof ( talk) 17:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the repeated incognito change of the ethnicity of Aurel Vlaicu from Austro-Hungarian to Romanian: As you can see, there is no ethnic group called Austro-Hungarian, only a redirect to the Austria-Hungary article. There are however Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnian etc. - all these people were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. For example, Béla Bartók was born in Austro-Hungaria, so by the same token he should be Austro-Hungarian Hungarian. Try such an editing in Bartók article and see what happens! Simiprof ( talk) 05:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Nikola Tesla is another example: Born in what is now Croatia, back then part of Austrian Empire, to Serbian parents, he is regarded as Serbian American.
Vlaicu is an old Romanian name - see Vlaicu Voda. Aurel Vlaicu was born to Romanian parents Ana and Dumitru Vlaicu as this commemorative plate acknowledges:
"In this Romanian house was born in 1882, the first flier of Ardeal AUREL VLAICU, conqueror of the sky, with his own designed and constructed airplane. Absorbed by the historical necessity of eliminating the border between brothers, like a forerunner, He indicated the road that the Romanian nation followed in 1916 towards victory and fulfillment of her centuries old aspirations. A martyr of the idea of unification and liberation, He sanctified with his young blood in 1913, the beginning of this path to salvation. Forever be blessed His memory and the nation that He was born in. ASTRA Orăștie 1925. "Aurel Vlaicu" high school Orăștie."
NOTE: Vlaicu crashed his plane and lost his life in an attempt to fly from Bucharest to Orăștie to attend ASTRA festivities. Simiprof ( talk) 15:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what Vlaicu's immigration status was during his time in the Kingdom of Romania. One thing is for sure: He was employed by the Romanian Government during all these years.
Vlaicu was born an Austro-Hungarian citizen and the first thing in the header should be the citizenship, not ethnicity. bogdan ( talk) 15:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:MOSBIO provides clear guidelines: Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity): In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Simiprof ( talk) 16:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
In my judgement, is it legitimate to say that Aurel Vlaicu was "a Romanian engineer, inventor, airplane constructor and early pilot" Simiprof ( talk) 22:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu died in a plane crash. According to witnesses his plane stalled and fell to a side crashing from a height of about 10 meters. What contributed/caused the crash is still subject to debate. Some speculated that he had a heart attack, kidney cramps, or a mechanical failure. ( 24.175.231.107 ( talk) 18:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC))
Hi MilborneOne: Vlaicu died in an attempt to cross the Carpathian mountains in his aged Aurel Vlaicu II plane (made in 1911). He aborted the ascent to cross the mountains, made a turn and he was looking for a landing spot near the Ploiesti-Brasov road where he could have received assistance (he was followed by friends in an automobile). Witnesses saw him trying to avoid some tries, but the airplane stalled and slipped to a side. The dart-like tail of the airplane made it stiff at low speed (the elevator and ruder were placed in front), so he was always landing with the engine off, which meant that he could never abort a landing.
The heart attack of Vlaicu has not been confirmed by an autopsy "Cauzele nu sunt nici acum cunoscute, fiind avansate atât ipoteza unui atac de cord, cât şi problele tehnice ale avionului." quote from [1]
One thing is for sure: He did not die during a test flight.
P.S. My main reference is the 1960 monograph "Aurel Vlaicu. Un Precursor Al Aviatiei Romanesti" by C. Gheorghiu (I have a copy), who had the chance to interview some of Valicu's contemporaries. [2]
Thanks.
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page needs followup to confirm which of the two universities in Munchen Mr. Vlaicu attended. See hidden comment in main page. -- Gary D 06:54, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess that the bill is here to show a portrait of him but is that really necessary? It seems so unrelated to the text... 89.136.41.31 ( talk) 09:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Apass
Claims made here must be viewed in the light of Protochronism - the widespread falsification of Romanian history (whereby they make absurd attempts to having invented nearly everything). All sources on Aurel Vlaicu are Romanian and are thus unreliable. No mention of him is to be found in contemporary western aviation sources. NiD.29 ( talk) 01:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Add the absurd claim about being the first military flight after the French when many other nations were already operating aircraft under the authority of the military, including operating flying schools for military aviators. Romania was preceded by France (1909), Italy (1910), Germany (1910), Russia (1910), and the US (1909) in using aircraft for military purposes. Just about the only major power left out is the UK.
RESPONSE: Why do you think that Romanian sources are unreliable?
RESPONSE: Flying airplanes by military officers trained as pilots does not mean using these aircraft for "military purposes". Vlaicu delivered an envelope to the Chief of Staff.
When the aircraft is owned and operated by the military then EVERYTHING IT DOES (including training military aviators) is for military purposes, unlike a civilian pilot in his own private aircraft delivering an envelope - something that likely occurred even in the UK before it did in Romania. NiD.29 ( talk) 02:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
RESPONSE: A. Vlaicu nr. I was build between Nov. 1909 and May 1010 with funding from the Romanian Minister of War. Months later they wanted to put the airplane to use, and it happened during the Fall Military Exercises. An there is a photograph for it in the article. In the spirit of Wikipedia, your claim "something that likely occurred even in the UK before it did in Romania" has to be substantiated with at least 1 (one) reference. Simiprof
RESPONSE: You make stereotypical statements, incompatible with a veteran Wikipedia editor. Maybe some Romanians living in the UK stole your spare tire lately, but that does not mean that Romanians are worthless. Simiprof
RESPONSE: Sorry NiD.29 ! You lack impartiality and I lack the time to argue with you. Simiprof
Russia formed an organization and raised money for military aircraft in January 1910 but didn't recieve their first military aircraft until 1911, though its pilots were in training during 1910 in France and from September in Russia. The German Army received its first aircraft (a Taube monoplane) in October 1910 but the first German military pilot had already soloed on 23 July 1910. I don't have much info on Serbian or Italian aviation, both of whom were also early adopters of aircraft. NiD.29 ( talk) 00:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
And please be reasonable to admit that the Vlaicu's cowled engines, particularly that of A. Vlaicu Nr. III is a NACA cowling: "The NACA cowling directs cool air to flow through the engine where it is routed across the motor's hottest parts, i.e. the cylinders and even more importantly, the cylinder heads."
All B/W photographs are over 100 years old. The color ones are mine. Please do not delete them en block.
Cheers, NiD.29 ( talk) 22:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
"Vlaicu III was seized and shipped to Germany, and it was last seen in 1942 at an aviation exhibition in Berlin." C-tin C. Gheorghiu cites two Romanian Air-force officers that saw the airplane in Berlin at the said exhibition.
Can somebody identify more of the people pictured here with Vlaicu?
Vlaicu with friends on Cotroceni air filed. From right to left: Caragiale (in the background, holding a walking cane), Magnani, Vlaicu, others. According to some reports, sitting in front of Vlaicu is his brother Ion
From left to right: Giovanni Magnani, Aurel Vlaicu, Ion Ciulu (Vlaicu's mechanic) and a friend in front of A. Vlaicu Nr. II
Can we keep some of the picture in the gallery? Certainly Wikipedia is not Pintrest, but the pictures add value to the article. Plus there are available nowhere else on the internet. Thank you! Simiprof ( talk) 15:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
[ANSWER]: Vlaicu himself was naming his airplanes "A Vlaicu" see:
I still believe that some gallery photos should be allowed. I am considering restoring some of them in the future. Regards, Simiprof ( talk) 16:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
37 images is surely far too many? I took a fairly random selection from the aviators list, unscientifically picked by recognising names from the days before WWI. On average, these have 4 images. Two exceptions were Lilienthal (& plus 4 in a gallery) and the Wright Brothers 35. I chose these for the unusual impact on aviation of these three men and think the others are more typical pioneers. TSRL ( talk) 21:19, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu did more than just to "write his name on an aeroplane". Those were his airplanes, substantially different than those of his contemporaries, for which he has been granted several international patents (British, Danish and German, in addition to a Romanian patent).
A. Vlaicu Nr. I flew for the first time on June 17, 1910 exactly as it was originally designed, with no modification whatsoever.
Vlaicu was the first to use two coaxial, counter-rotating propellers that canceled each other's reaction torque.
He was probably the first to install brakes to the wheels (rear wheel) of his airplane, and to fully cowl the engine - see A. Vlaicu Nr. III.
NOTE: I am considering displaying Vlaicu's pilot license in a gallery to the article, in addition to some of the above pics.
Regards,
Simiprof ( talk) 00:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the note, but I am not seeing two propellers on Howard Wright 1909 Biplane - it is a pusher that looks very much like a Voisin / Farman III, while Breguet flew after Vlaicu I. Simiprof ( talk) 01:12, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Please provide references of pre-Vlaicu I airplanes that had co-axial counter-rotating propellers. Those are visible in photographs, irrespective of Protochronism theories.
"well understood in aviation history circles" Who is aviation historian here by the way?! Simiprof ( talk) 02:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu's airplane did not go unnoticed during his lifetime. A delegate of
Marconi Co. selected his during the International Flight Week in Aspern-Vienna in the Summer of 1912 (there were 40 other aviators attending that event). When Vlaicu died a year later, two copies of A Vlaicu III airplanes were under construction, one for Marconi to evaluate it for use with aerial telegraphy, and one to remain with Vlaicu. I will upload the copy of a letter send by Vlaicu to his parents, where he mentions his relationship with Marconi Co. Of the two Vlaicu III airplanes, one was completed posthumously and disappeared during WWI. What is left of the other one is the
Gnome Gamma engine, now on display in a museum in Bucharest. Imagine - a brand new Gnome Gamma engine available for some enthusiasts to build a replica of A Vlaicu III!
Another remarkable thing about Vlaicu is that he build his airplanes on very tight budgets (around 15,000 Romanian lei each of his first two airplanes - an army lieutenant's salary then was 600 lei a month). When Bleriot came to Bucharest to fly on Oct. 1909, his remuneration was 80,000 lei! And you know what? The demonstration had to be postponed because at the first attempt, on Oct. 14, the propeller of Bleriot's airplane broke and they had to ship a new one from France.
Same as with the automobile, there were a number of engineers and inventors that contributed to the advancement of the airplane. (I am seeing now that the counter-rotating props were indeed tried before - thanks for the link.).
Let as not forget that this controversy started by having the gallery to the article removed entirely. Of those pics and photocopies, some are documents relevant to the life of Aurel Vlaicu - like for example his knowledge of Machine Elements and of German language (in addition to Romanian and Hungarian), or the network of friends (writers and journalists) that helped him during his short career in Bucharest.
So Dear Folks: Feel free to add galleries to other aviation pioneers' articles that you favor, but allow me to restore some of the gallery photos to this article. Thank you!
As for you NiD.29, I am sure you are nice in person. Unfortunately I don't see how we could meet so that you could prove me right. And yes, I am an university prof. Simiprof ( talk) 17:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the repeated incognito change of the ethnicity of Aurel Vlaicu from Austro-Hungarian to Romanian: As you can see, there is no ethnic group called Austro-Hungarian, only a redirect to the Austria-Hungary article. There are however Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Bosnian etc. - all these people were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. For example, Béla Bartók was born in Austro-Hungaria, so by the same token he should be Austro-Hungarian Hungarian. Try such an editing in Bartók article and see what happens! Simiprof ( talk) 05:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Nikola Tesla is another example: Born in what is now Croatia, back then part of Austrian Empire, to Serbian parents, he is regarded as Serbian American.
Vlaicu is an old Romanian name - see Vlaicu Voda. Aurel Vlaicu was born to Romanian parents Ana and Dumitru Vlaicu as this commemorative plate acknowledges:
"In this Romanian house was born in 1882, the first flier of Ardeal AUREL VLAICU, conqueror of the sky, with his own designed and constructed airplane. Absorbed by the historical necessity of eliminating the border between brothers, like a forerunner, He indicated the road that the Romanian nation followed in 1916 towards victory and fulfillment of her centuries old aspirations. A martyr of the idea of unification and liberation, He sanctified with his young blood in 1913, the beginning of this path to salvation. Forever be blessed His memory and the nation that He was born in. ASTRA Orăștie 1925. "Aurel Vlaicu" high school Orăștie."
NOTE: Vlaicu crashed his plane and lost his life in an attempt to fly from Bucharest to Orăștie to attend ASTRA festivities. Simiprof ( talk) 15:28, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what Vlaicu's immigration status was during his time in the Kingdom of Romania. One thing is for sure: He was employed by the Romanian Government during all these years.
Vlaicu was born an Austro-Hungarian citizen and the first thing in the header should be the citizenship, not ethnicity. bogdan ( talk) 15:41, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:MOSBIO provides clear guidelines: Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity): In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Simiprof ( talk) 16:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
In my judgement, is it legitimate to say that Aurel Vlaicu was "a Romanian engineer, inventor, airplane constructor and early pilot" Simiprof ( talk) 22:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Vlaicu died in a plane crash. According to witnesses his plane stalled and fell to a side crashing from a height of about 10 meters. What contributed/caused the crash is still subject to debate. Some speculated that he had a heart attack, kidney cramps, or a mechanical failure. ( 24.175.231.107 ( talk) 18:02, 15 December 2015 (UTC))
Hi MilborneOne: Vlaicu died in an attempt to cross the Carpathian mountains in his aged Aurel Vlaicu II plane (made in 1911). He aborted the ascent to cross the mountains, made a turn and he was looking for a landing spot near the Ploiesti-Brasov road where he could have received assistance (he was followed by friends in an automobile). Witnesses saw him trying to avoid some tries, but the airplane stalled and slipped to a side. The dart-like tail of the airplane made it stiff at low speed (the elevator and ruder were placed in front), so he was always landing with the engine off, which meant that he could never abort a landing.
The heart attack of Vlaicu has not been confirmed by an autopsy "Cauzele nu sunt nici acum cunoscute, fiind avansate atât ipoteza unui atac de cord, cât şi problele tehnice ale avionului." quote from [1]
One thing is for sure: He did not die during a test flight.
P.S. My main reference is the 1960 monograph "Aurel Vlaicu. Un Precursor Al Aviatiei Romanesti" by C. Gheorghiu (I have a copy), who had the chance to interview some of Valicu's contemporaries. [2]
Thanks.
References