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March 23, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that 15th-century heralds
attributed a coat of arms (pictured) to
Jesus based on the
instruments of the Passion? |
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In the 15th-century, the Shield of the Trinity with argent device on a field of gules was considered to be the Arms of God Himself, while other color variations (especially on a non-gules field) were reserved for lesser heraldic uses, so it's not necessarily all that curious... AnonMoos ( talk) 14:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Still don't really see what the word "curious" adds to this article. It's one of the almost inherently subjective kind of words which Wikipedia policies normally tend to discourage except in quotes (or other direct attributions to sources). I'm not normally a stickler for the exceptionless enforcement of such policies, but in this case I'm not sure that use of the word is justified. Michael is the angel who is traditionally depicted as being most militantly aggressive in directly combatting the forces of evil, and the metaphors of the spiritual warfare of Ephesians chapter 6 were inevitably applied to such combat. So since the "shield of the faith" of Ephesians verse 6:13 was identified from the 13th-century on with the Shield of the Trinity diagram, it therefore would not have been particularly strange to imagine Michael as wielding a shield with this diagram on it. The fact that the archangel Michael is not himself God was sufficiently indicated (to those in the know concerning 15th-century conventions in the use of the Shield of the Trinity) by the fact that the shield attributed to Michael did not have an argent-on-gules color scheme. I don't see anything too strange in all this... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You are going to have to expand the lead to have any hope of passing GA. See WP:Lead. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Replies: 1) The phenomena is a little more complicated than contemporary dress. They didn't just show Alexander in generic 13th-century armor, but also with what we would think of as a logo. It was more like an iconographic emblem. But saying that is technically OR. 2) Same cite as found in the quartering article (Neubecker). 3) I don't have a papal example at the moment. The only mentions I've found say that it was done, and give the earliest known non-attributed papal arms. Will check Fox-Davies regarding Welsh. Gimmetrow 04:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You emphasize; the rise of heraldry; pre-dating heraldry; pre-heraldic Kings, as such; pre- C12th attributed arms are imaginary. The correct term for this usage is; “heralds.”
Heraldry is everything within the duties of the rise of heralds from circa C12th; Armory is a science of arms; rules and laws governing use, display, meaning, and knowledge of pictured signs and emblems appertaining to shield, helmet or banner, from circa 4000BC. The pre-C12th science of Armory is not imaginary it is the "Shorthand of History".(AC F-D)
Arms were attributed to many kings pre-dating; “C12th Heralds” including Edward the Confessor. The Anglo-Saxon pennies from the earliest period of issue till the reign of Edward the Confessor have nearly all a cross on them. In the times of Richard II, heralds assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor in reference to the reverse of King Edward’s coins known as the “Sovereign.” It is so called by reason of the King represented on the obverse side seated on his throne, with Sceptre in his right hand and Orb surmounted by a cross in the left. The reverse of King Edward’s coin had the angled cross with four birds.
A five bird’s achievement of arms assigned to Richard II may be in devotion to the Saint. Historically, it seems more relevant this attribution pertained to regnal descriptions of the later Edward’s I and II &c., being a cause of the “Saint” (canonized 1161) and later; “the confessor” descriptions. The College of Arms (R. 22, 67) and (in Latin) the Abby booke of newborough, state Richard II also assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor with two Ostrich feathers and the Royal Crest to Thomas de Mowbray. The comparison between the arms of King Edward (b1004/5: r1024-1066); Thomas de Mowbray (*figs 692, 699, 823, 824) and Arms of England (1195-1340); shows the scientific and historical armorial link between the pre-1066 Anglo-Saxon Kings and post-1066 Norman Kings &c. Stephen2nd ( talk) 00:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
As part of the late 15th-century Wernigerode/Schaffhausen armorial. For example File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 018.jpg to File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 020.jpg are the coats of arms of the Nine Worthies, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 021.jpg is the coats of arms of the Three Magi, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 014.jpg is the coat of arms of death, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 010.jpg is the coat of arms of God, etc. AnonMoos ( talk) 02:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
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Hi, I noticed that despite being a good article, there are no inline citations to be found. If someone could take care of that, it would be appreciated. Unlimitedlead ( talk) 01:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | Attributed arms has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
March 23, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ...that 15th-century heralds
attributed a coat of arms (pictured) to
Jesus based on the
instruments of the Passion? |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
In the 15th-century, the Shield of the Trinity with argent device on a field of gules was considered to be the Arms of God Himself, while other color variations (especially on a non-gules field) were reserved for lesser heraldic uses, so it's not necessarily all that curious... AnonMoos ( talk) 14:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Still don't really see what the word "curious" adds to this article. It's one of the almost inherently subjective kind of words which Wikipedia policies normally tend to discourage except in quotes (or other direct attributions to sources). I'm not normally a stickler for the exceptionless enforcement of such policies, but in this case I'm not sure that use of the word is justified. Michael is the angel who is traditionally depicted as being most militantly aggressive in directly combatting the forces of evil, and the metaphors of the spiritual warfare of Ephesians chapter 6 were inevitably applied to such combat. So since the "shield of the faith" of Ephesians verse 6:13 was identified from the 13th-century on with the Shield of the Trinity diagram, it therefore would not have been particularly strange to imagine Michael as wielding a shield with this diagram on it. The fact that the archangel Michael is not himself God was sufficiently indicated (to those in the know concerning 15th-century conventions in the use of the Shield of the Trinity) by the fact that the shield attributed to Michael did not have an argent-on-gules color scheme. I don't see anything too strange in all this... AnonMoos ( talk) 06:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You are going to have to expand the lead to have any hope of passing GA. See WP:Lead. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Replies: 1) The phenomena is a little more complicated than contemporary dress. They didn't just show Alexander in generic 13th-century armor, but also with what we would think of as a logo. It was more like an iconographic emblem. But saying that is technically OR. 2) Same cite as found in the quartering article (Neubecker). 3) I don't have a papal example at the moment. The only mentions I've found say that it was done, and give the earliest known non-attributed papal arms. Will check Fox-Davies regarding Welsh. Gimmetrow 04:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
You emphasize; the rise of heraldry; pre-dating heraldry; pre-heraldic Kings, as such; pre- C12th attributed arms are imaginary. The correct term for this usage is; “heralds.”
Heraldry is everything within the duties of the rise of heralds from circa C12th; Armory is a science of arms; rules and laws governing use, display, meaning, and knowledge of pictured signs and emblems appertaining to shield, helmet or banner, from circa 4000BC. The pre-C12th science of Armory is not imaginary it is the "Shorthand of History".(AC F-D)
Arms were attributed to many kings pre-dating; “C12th Heralds” including Edward the Confessor. The Anglo-Saxon pennies from the earliest period of issue till the reign of Edward the Confessor have nearly all a cross on them. In the times of Richard II, heralds assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor in reference to the reverse of King Edward’s coins known as the “Sovereign.” It is so called by reason of the King represented on the obverse side seated on his throne, with Sceptre in his right hand and Orb surmounted by a cross in the left. The reverse of King Edward’s coin had the angled cross with four birds.
A five bird’s achievement of arms assigned to Richard II may be in devotion to the Saint. Historically, it seems more relevant this attribution pertained to regnal descriptions of the later Edward’s I and II &c., being a cause of the “Saint” (canonized 1161) and later; “the confessor” descriptions. The College of Arms (R. 22, 67) and (in Latin) the Abby booke of newborough, state Richard II also assigned the arms of Edward the Confessor with two Ostrich feathers and the Royal Crest to Thomas de Mowbray. The comparison between the arms of King Edward (b1004/5: r1024-1066); Thomas de Mowbray (*figs 692, 699, 823, 824) and Arms of England (1195-1340); shows the scientific and historical armorial link between the pre-1066 Anglo-Saxon Kings and post-1066 Norman Kings &c. Stephen2nd ( talk) 00:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
As part of the late 15th-century Wernigerode/Schaffhausen armorial. For example File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 018.jpg to File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 020.jpg are the coats of arms of the Nine Worthies, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 021.jpg is the coats of arms of the Three Magi, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 014.jpg is the coat of arms of death, File:Wernigeroder Wappenbuch 010.jpg is the coat of arms of God, etc. AnonMoos ( talk) 02:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Attributed arms. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed that despite being a good article, there are no inline citations to be found. If someone could take care of that, it would be appreciated. Unlimitedlead ( talk) 01:28, 28 December 2022 (UTC)