This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Atonality article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Atonality was a
good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the
good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it,
please do; it may then be
renominated. Review: November 8, 2006. |
Is this really true? Which pieces by Webern serialise more than the pitches? -- Camembert
Webern begins using rows starting with Concerto for 9 Instruments in 1934. Messaien begins parameterizing - not rows - dynamics in the 1940's. The term "serial" is Stockhausen's.
Sorry to press you on this, but what aspects other than pitch does Webern subject to serial procedures in the Concerto? -- Camembert
Dynamics and register are the first to aspects that he begins to apply rows to. Concerto for 9 instruments has a "row" of tone colors and the Piano Variations have a row of dynamics.
I am not clear where we are in disagreement. I do not see where I said that Webern has serialized dynamics and tone colour separate from the pitch class row. If I have - please show me where.
This article is beginning to actually look good.
Anyone care to take a crack at describing actual practice?
I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why does 'Pantonal' redirect to 'Atonal'.... they are not the same thing. 'Pantonal' needs its own article.
Thanks! I think this is much clearer. I was only familiar with the latter sense, so thanks also for filling me in on the former.
I just removed a paragraph fromt the criticism section about hte Postive Music Group. There is a http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/movement.asp which may oppose atonal music and promote tonal music, but their website doesn't seem to mention either term. Hyacinth 12:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Undisputed is however, that they are the leading figures opposing atonality at the moment. 80.138.158.108 16:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes of course, e.g. Ernest Ansermet. Haha.
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I would love to see a section devoted to the influence of this music. Philip Glass is mentioned as one influencee, in reference to his minimalist works, but there are other well known musicians and bands that do use this atonal technique heavily. I hate to use the term but "art-rock"/ minimalist bands such as Mogwai definitely embrace an atonal music style. Even acts like Archers of Loaf/ Eric Bachmann, and Pavement with Stephen Malkmus use the atonal method in just about all of their songs. Would just like to see what other people's thoughts are on the matter.
"Not only does it not conform to the common practice of this particular period, but it is noticeably divorced from the acoustical underpinnings of music going back as far as the scale systems of ancient Greece."
I would consider it as an extension of the use of the acoustical base. That was the vision of Schoenberg and other composers.
I don't think the definition is narrow enough: Atonality describes music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies, which characterizes the sound of classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. It looks like the modal music of earlier periods and non-western cultures is included in this definition, which it shouldn't be. Why not: Atonality describes music without tonal center or where all pitches are considered of equal importance. Apus 11:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
What do people think about linking to this site? They are audio recordings of lectures given by a (late) Music professor from Antioch College, John Ronsheim. Ronsheim was a Dallapiccola student, set up the University of Iowa's 20th century music program and was a very dynamic/popular teacher at Antioch. I put the link on here and it was immediately taken off by user CRCulver as "spam". I don't agree. Friends and students of Prof Ronsheim started a not-for-profit after his death-- one of our aims is to promote the understanding of 20th century music. The lectures were prepared for non-music majors. They include many musical excerpts and could be very useful for those wanting to understand atonality who are new to it and/or don't read music. Pulpy 15:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Mr. Culver that I did not know about "affiliaton" guideline. Yes I am "affiliated' wtih the site. So I guess I had already done what wiki recommends, ie "If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." So here it is and we'll see. Also, I do not find guidelines limiting the number of times a site can be listed. I would like to propose it to pages where it would be the most useful. The lectures are on the history 20th century european music until about 1970-- I had originally thought: 20th Century Classical Music, and then links to specific lectures for Atonality, Serialism and Dallapiccola as Prof Ronsheim was one of his closest pupils. So, in terms of music, not wikipedia rules, do people frequenting these topics think this is too much? If so, which would be most useful? Or are there other, better pages? Again my point of view is that these could be very helpful for people--especially non-music readers--in that they can hear the music described/explained as it is playing-- it's less theoretical. Pulpy 15:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Mr Culver, you are making up your own guidelines. I'm not sure why. I'm trying in a sincere way to follow those of Wikipedia. "[Avoid] a page that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important and difficult objective at Wikipedia. If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." I didn't know this and tried to put the links in first. Now I know, and am doing as recommended. This is a place for discussion and not your bossing around and unilateral decision making. (Several people on your page have complained about this with you) The wikipedia project will not be compromised if people discuss this possible link as permitted under the wiki guidelines!! I'm sure that "linkspam" is a problem and many thanks to those who delete them. Harassment is also a problem. You've said your piece-- don't threaten to ban people from participating, just because they don't do things exactly like you want!
This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of ' What is a Good Article?', which states;
LuciferMorgan 00:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I found an interview with Glass here where he talks about his criticisms of the avant garde of the 60s: [1]
I know I've seen other older interviews where he says more direct things, but I'd have to dig around... and I think this one addresses the issue nicely. I can probably find similar things for Reich and Adams shortly (Adams' sardonic use of sprechstimme in The Death of Klinghoffer springs readily to mind).
As for the statement: The advent of eclecticism, particularly reflecting the absorption of world music and other so-called "popular" styles, continue to be at variance with anaytical and emotionally sterile mannerist approaches to art music. I don't think it's worthwhile unless it's actually an attributable quote, but to me it just sounds like POV. - Rainwarrior 20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
From an interview on John Adams' website: [2]
- Rainwarrior 20:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Sure, good quote, but notice that he avoids pointing a finger directly at anybody except Schoenberg. Unless, of course, he means everybody from Schoenberg onward, which seems unlikely. As for Reich, I think there may well be a quotation lurking out there somewhere (probably in "Music as a Gradual Process") about the Academy. I remember reading somewhere Reich explaining why he worked as a cab driver all those years, and ISTR he particularly wanted to avoid the academic milieu. Whether that is the same thing as rejecting academic composers is another thing, of course.-- Jerome Kohl 23:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no shortage of criticism of atonality, especially serial atonality (by serial I'm referring to pitch rows only), but if we're getting at the displacement of the serial or post-tonal hegemony, it seems to me that Reich's strident campaigning is much more germane than Glass's tepid and apologetically qualified opposition--and Adams only came along after the deed had largely been accomplished. TheScotch 09:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
So it would appear. I wonder what happened to it. In any case, we do still have a section called "Criticism of atonal music". It cites one proponent (Anton Webern) and two opponents (Walter Piston and Ernest Ansermet). The historical context for Webern's championing is clear enough, but the historical context for Piston's and Ansermet's dissension is not clear enough. Why have we singled out (or doubled out, I suppose) these two? TheScotch 05:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the purpose of any Wiki entry is to inform anyone seeking interest in the subject. The problem this creates is that terms that may not be commonly used in mainstream vernacular, such as "atonal," don't garner making the article "laymen friendly." As someone who is very interested in music but knows very little about its theory or structure, I had a very difficult time discerning just what atonal refers to. Should the article be rewritten, at least in part, so that the average music listener could understand the meaning, or should it remain in its current form, filled with jargon relevant to music theorisits?
Partly related to the discussion above; "a sample song may be worth a thousand words". I think the best way to tell a "layman" what atonality is to provide examples, thus avoiding a more or less technical discussion. Also, is the caprice by Paul Sprimont a proper example of atonal music? (I'm really asking) Ozkaplan 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Since Daniel French has again added a link to the video of himself playing that Sprimont piece (and if this isn't linkspam, then I'd like to know what is), let me clarify that the harmony is plainly tonal, in the key of E minor to be precise, except that it begins with a center on F, and has a few excursions into whole-tone-scale material in the middle. It is perfectly within the norms of the kind of extended tonality found in the practice of the late-19th and 20th centuries and, as a result, makes not merely a poor example for this article, but a positively misleading one.-- Jerome Kohl 21:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately Jerome, I am not the one playing the Sprimont piece. (I am 53 years old and it is obvious, from the video, that the pianist is much younger :-) ) I am also quite incapable to play like that.Acusing of linkspaming is therefore slightly excessive. In order to clarify the harmony issue, I have requested a meeting with the composer Paul Sprimont , who said himself that the piece wat atonal. I will show him your comment and will come back with his. My idea is no to mislead but to provide an example of atonal music as, as indicated by another interested party (in a nicer tone than yours, no pun intended) it's not easy to have examples that can be posted due to copyright issues. Both the composer and the interpreter agreed to the posting for this example. DCFrenchy 21:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
My mistake, I apologize for assuming DCFrenchy and the pianist Daniel French were one and the same person. (There was of course no way I could know you are 53 years old, since you have not created a Wikipedia profile.) Paul Sprimont may well believe his piece is atonal (and under certain definitions it is, though as I have said it has a clear tonal center at the end, including some dominant-tonic progressions in E minor). You might care to mention to the composer that Rainwarrior, too, hears tonal centricity in this piece. If there are to be audio examples, they ought to be unambiguous ones, preferably from a style conventionally associated with the concept of atonality (e. g., Webern, Varèse, middle-period Schoenberg, Babbitt).-- Jerome Kohl 22:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering, why is there no mention of the Pentatonic scale? I have always been taught this was a type of chromatic scale that was atonal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.83.131.213 ( talk) 17:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
I didn't ask the question correctly. I also realized another thing. This might not fit in this article. I really wanted to know why a chromatic scale and a pentatonic scale are not listed as having a sense of atonality in this article. I was taught that atonality can be used in the middle of a piece to give it color. If I was going to use a chromatic scale in the middle of a piece (or a pentatonic scale) And say I was in the key C major, and after my color was added I was going to stay in the key of C major. I would use the respected chromatic notes from the given key. This isn't always the case of course. If I was modulating to G major, it would most likely be using chromatic scale in G. I'm not an expert on music theory. One thing if for sure, chromatic, pentatonic or whole scales lack a tonal center.
(Ok first sorry for my english, that's not my mother's tongue)
I had to delete the claim including death metal bands as atonal music. That's a frequent misconception among fans of death metal to argue that death bands generally play atonality. The misconception generaly is due to a certain number of reasons:
But dissonance doesn't necessarilly mean atonality. Here's the confusion of so many people. Many tonal works can be dissonant. My point is as long as you have a tonal centre and you use tonal chords, you are tonal. And death metal bands (including Morbid angel and Deicide) use basic power chords and they favour a tonal centre thanks to the repeating of their riff. I can tell you the key for any of their songs. If I can that's because it IS tonal.
Another frequent confusion is people misunderstand the sense of tonal and atonal(ignoring they are harmonic languages) and confuse the words with issues about timbres.
Death metal generally stays tonal. A very extended and unorthodox tonality, yes, but tonality anyway.
However in metal, one can find occasionaly a few attempts of atonality (in some Progressive metal or avant-garde metal bands.) Alpha Ursae Minoris 08:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this recent imput:
because
Some may use the terms of "tones" or "tonality" in some other meaning, but in the general musical vocabulary, "the notion of "tonality" refers to a system in which certain hierarchical pitch relationships are based on a key "center" or tonic."In other words, a piece is tonal when you can tell the key of that piece (A minor, E minor or C major and so on...) It has nothing to do with the fact the pieces use pitches. Actually you seem to confuse the notion of "tonality" with the notion of "pitch" itself. That's a common use in the popular language but not in the strict musical vocabulary.
So the definition of atonality here is clear. that's any music which doesn't have any key center. I can assure you there's no key in the schoenberg's "atonal" works no matter he uses pitches. Alpha Ursae Minoris 11:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if you remove this reference but at least do it for justified reasons:
It's clear and explicit. Alpha Ursae Minoris 17:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I presume that I am the person you are addressing. First of all, I am very much aware of what Ircam is and does (quite apart from being a reference center), and often find data there unavailable elsewhere. However, it is also true that their online data is not as reliable as it might be (the puctuation of the present quotation, for example, shows that more care could have been taken with the text). Far from being "clear and explicit", the claim here is at best ambiguous. Although "compositional techniques set out by Webern between the two wars (organization of different parameters of sound by the series (and not only serialisation of the pitch of notes)" can be read to say that Webern serialized parameters other than pitch, it can also be read as saying that these were Darmstadt techniques derived from and then retrospectively sought in Webern's music (which, by the way, is the more usual understanding). Even in the writings of the Darmstadt serialists themselves, only very tentative conclusions along these were drawn, and they generally describe Webern as an "important forerunner" of their ideas, rather than as the creator of multi-parametric serialism. What is really needed is not some encyclopedic source repeating dubious platitudes, but rather a reference demonstrating the truth of the assertion that Webern ever actually serialized dynamics, rhythms, timbres, or registers. I am personally unaware of any such demonstration.-- Jerome Kohl 18:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
In this article it doesn't matter if Webern serialized or didn't. Hyacinth 23:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the last paragraph of the introduction, I'm almost certain that no works of Prokofiev, Hindemith, Bartók or Scriabin are considered strictly atonal. As far as I am aware, all of these composers used musical languages that, despite an extremely free treatment of dissonance and chromaticism, always retained a tonal center in one way or another. Of course, I might be wrong, but even so it's probably a good idea to find some citations for the claims. EdwardTattsyrup ( talk) 19:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm tempted to put a {{ refstyle}} or {{ nofootnotes}} tag on this article but I won't because although it doesn't really meet Wikipedia's style guidelines on citations, they ARE there, just not "wikified", and putting a {{ wikify}} tag on it would give editors the wrong idea. It's a big job but someone needs to go through this article and create footnotes by converting all the bare inline citations into wikilinks to the full references. A guide with a good explanation on how to do this can be found here and here. I'd do it myself if I wasn't already bogged down with work. OlEnglish ( talk) 21:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article states "Twelve-tone technique, combined with the parameterization of Olivier Messiaen, would be taken as the inspiration for serialism (du Noyer 2003, 272)." What does the "parameterization of Olivier Messiaen" refer to? thegoddamnbatman ( talk) 21:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the Chicago-style citation formats, which were changed without the discussion and consensus required by Wikipedia:Citing_sources. In fact, the discussion from February of this year appears to indicate consensus that Chicago format is preferred here. The flag placed a few days ago, alleging unclear citations, was not explained. The citations were perfectly clear, so far as I can see. Perhaps the motivation was simply personal preference for a different style—not an adequate reason for wholesale change. A few calls for page numbers were also added, some with justice, but most either to citations referring to entire books or articles (which do not require the inclusive page numbers of those books or articles), or to dictionary or encyclopedia articles, which in citations ordinarily do not require page numbers, either. If an argument is to be made to change from the elegant and efficient Chicago format to what seems to me an awkward footnote format, which is also vulnerable to confusion in online publications, then let that argument be put forward here.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 04:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like to see more of an exposition on the left-wing culturally Marxist influences on atonal music. Ie, how it fits in with other left-wing facets of postmodern cultural Marxism. Any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.160.174 ( talk) 19:05, 12 April 2010
As seen in the text below the picture, describing Scriabin's oeuvre as atonal is at least questionable. So I'm removing it. Scriabin himself said that his works were tonal, it was just another kind of tonlity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.13.19 ( talk) 09:25, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Why is the mystic chord found in the lead of this article? Isn't atonality related mainly to the issue of relationships between sounds, as opposed to combinations of them? A 12-tone row would make much more sense there. Toccata quarta ( talk) 16:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
How many separate headers are needed for the same subject? Hyacinth ( talk) 07:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I've seen that User:Jerome Kohl reverted my edits concerning the replacement of parenthetical references for sfn footnotes. While he has his point (mentioning WP:CITEVAR), was it really necessary? I mean it took me a while, and it makes the article more readable. That's a dense and somewhat "controversial" article, so it will be expanded a lot in the future, and it will need extensive sourcing. Keeping with the current style makes reading the article more tedious. Just check out the last sentence of the header, it's excessive! IMHO the sentence "if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page" applies here. Thanks!!-- Fauban 09:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Would traditional music such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWEa_xqKxsA&list=TLsdUrk7uB6ku4XymzGuojBcsNudoGoLse or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgWeVPIrXwQ be considered atonal? 153.188.121.94 ( talk) 05:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Fauban 09:45, 3 February 2013 " Keeping with the current style makes reading the article more tedious" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
" and requiring the reader to bounce back and forth from text to footnotes" Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2013
JK - I would be amazed if you need to bounce back and forth. Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. AnnaComnemna ( talk) 10:26, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Atonality. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi, It would be really useful to cite a few well-known atonal pieces to explain what atonality is. An example is worth a thousand words. thanks Tad 115.70.130.5 ( talk) 02:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Tonal music with many scales (usually non-classical like: mode A: do, do#, re#, mi, fa#, sol, la, la#, mode B [same; shifted one semitione - up or down is same]: do, re, re#, fa, fa#, sol#, la, si) and many exceptions. Modernism (music)
Why
False-atonality =
pseudoatonality needs a different page from
modernism (music)?
because:
In 2020 atonality has been used 50% more in music according to studies.many different artist used them trippy red,xxx tentaction,yyyoungcut,kanye west and more ..but the reality is that sound can be bent which can give it a 3d effect. artist that has almost created a subgenre using atonality
.YYYOUNGCUT
.DRAKE .XXX TENTACION .KANYE WEST
173.16.234.201 ( talk) 05:44, 18 March 2022 (UTC)zombieschool records
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Atonality article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Atonality was a
good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the
good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it,
please do; it may then be
renominated. Review: November 8, 2006. |
Is this really true? Which pieces by Webern serialise more than the pitches? -- Camembert
Webern begins using rows starting with Concerto for 9 Instruments in 1934. Messaien begins parameterizing - not rows - dynamics in the 1940's. The term "serial" is Stockhausen's.
Sorry to press you on this, but what aspects other than pitch does Webern subject to serial procedures in the Concerto? -- Camembert
Dynamics and register are the first to aspects that he begins to apply rows to. Concerto for 9 instruments has a "row" of tone colors and the Piano Variations have a row of dynamics.
I am not clear where we are in disagreement. I do not see where I said that Webern has serialized dynamics and tone colour separate from the pitch class row. If I have - please show me where.
This article is beginning to actually look good.
Anyone care to take a crack at describing actual practice?
I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why does 'Pantonal' redirect to 'Atonal'.... they are not the same thing. 'Pantonal' needs its own article.
Thanks! I think this is much clearer. I was only familiar with the latter sense, so thanks also for filling me in on the former.
I just removed a paragraph fromt the criticism section about hte Postive Music Group. There is a http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/movement.asp which may oppose atonal music and promote tonal music, but their website doesn't seem to mention either term. Hyacinth 12:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Undisputed is however, that they are the leading figures opposing atonality at the moment. 80.138.158.108 16:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes of course, e.g. Ernest Ansermet. Haha.
I'm not an expert on the matter, but I would love to see a section devoted to the influence of this music. Philip Glass is mentioned as one influencee, in reference to his minimalist works, but there are other well known musicians and bands that do use this atonal technique heavily. I hate to use the term but "art-rock"/ minimalist bands such as Mogwai definitely embrace an atonal music style. Even acts like Archers of Loaf/ Eric Bachmann, and Pavement with Stephen Malkmus use the atonal method in just about all of their songs. Would just like to see what other people's thoughts are on the matter.
"Not only does it not conform to the common practice of this particular period, but it is noticeably divorced from the acoustical underpinnings of music going back as far as the scale systems of ancient Greece."
I would consider it as an extension of the use of the acoustical base. That was the vision of Schoenberg and other composers.
I don't think the definition is narrow enough: Atonality describes music that does not conform to the system of tonal hierarchies, which characterizes the sound of classical European music between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. It looks like the modal music of earlier periods and non-western cultures is included in this definition, which it shouldn't be. Why not: Atonality describes music without tonal center or where all pitches are considered of equal importance. Apus 11:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
What do people think about linking to this site? They are audio recordings of lectures given by a (late) Music professor from Antioch College, John Ronsheim. Ronsheim was a Dallapiccola student, set up the University of Iowa's 20th century music program and was a very dynamic/popular teacher at Antioch. I put the link on here and it was immediately taken off by user CRCulver as "spam". I don't agree. Friends and students of Prof Ronsheim started a not-for-profit after his death-- one of our aims is to promote the understanding of 20th century music. The lectures were prepared for non-music majors. They include many musical excerpts and could be very useful for those wanting to understand atonality who are new to it and/or don't read music. Pulpy 15:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Mr. Culver that I did not know about "affiliaton" guideline. Yes I am "affiliated' wtih the site. So I guess I had already done what wiki recommends, ie "If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." So here it is and we'll see. Also, I do not find guidelines limiting the number of times a site can be listed. I would like to propose it to pages where it would be the most useful. The lectures are on the history 20th century european music until about 1970-- I had originally thought: 20th Century Classical Music, and then links to specific lectures for Atonality, Serialism and Dallapiccola as Prof Ronsheim was one of his closest pupils. So, in terms of music, not wikipedia rules, do people frequenting these topics think this is too much? If so, which would be most useful? Or are there other, better pages? Again my point of view is that these could be very helpful for people--especially non-music readers--in that they can hear the music described/explained as it is playing-- it's less theoretical. Pulpy 15:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Mr Culver, you are making up your own guidelines. I'm not sure why. I'm trying in a sincere way to follow those of Wikipedia. "[Avoid] a page that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines above imply that it should be linked. This is because of neutrality and point-of-view concerns; neutrality is an important and difficult objective at Wikipedia. If your page is relevant and informative, mention it on the talk page and let unbiased Wikipedia editors decide whether to add the link." I didn't know this and tried to put the links in first. Now I know, and am doing as recommended. This is a place for discussion and not your bossing around and unilateral decision making. (Several people on your page have complained about this with you) The wikipedia project will not be compromised if people discuss this possible link as permitted under the wiki guidelines!! I'm sure that "linkspam" is a problem and many thanks to those who delete them. Harassment is also a problem. You've said your piece-- don't threaten to ban people from participating, just because they don't do things exactly like you want!
This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of ' What is a Good Article?', which states;
LuciferMorgan 00:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I found an interview with Glass here where he talks about his criticisms of the avant garde of the 60s: [1]
I know I've seen other older interviews where he says more direct things, but I'd have to dig around... and I think this one addresses the issue nicely. I can probably find similar things for Reich and Adams shortly (Adams' sardonic use of sprechstimme in The Death of Klinghoffer springs readily to mind).
As for the statement: The advent of eclecticism, particularly reflecting the absorption of world music and other so-called "popular" styles, continue to be at variance with anaytical and emotionally sterile mannerist approaches to art music. I don't think it's worthwhile unless it's actually an attributable quote, but to me it just sounds like POV. - Rainwarrior 20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
From an interview on John Adams' website: [2]
- Rainwarrior 20:53, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Sure, good quote, but notice that he avoids pointing a finger directly at anybody except Schoenberg. Unless, of course, he means everybody from Schoenberg onward, which seems unlikely. As for Reich, I think there may well be a quotation lurking out there somewhere (probably in "Music as a Gradual Process") about the Academy. I remember reading somewhere Reich explaining why he worked as a cab driver all those years, and ISTR he particularly wanted to avoid the academic milieu. Whether that is the same thing as rejecting academic composers is another thing, of course.-- Jerome Kohl 23:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no shortage of criticism of atonality, especially serial atonality (by serial I'm referring to pitch rows only), but if we're getting at the displacement of the serial or post-tonal hegemony, it seems to me that Reich's strident campaigning is much more germane than Glass's tepid and apologetically qualified opposition--and Adams only came along after the deed had largely been accomplished. TheScotch 09:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
So it would appear. I wonder what happened to it. In any case, we do still have a section called "Criticism of atonal music". It cites one proponent (Anton Webern) and two opponents (Walter Piston and Ernest Ansermet). The historical context for Webern's championing is clear enough, but the historical context for Piston's and Ansermet's dissension is not clear enough. Why have we singled out (or doubled out, I suppose) these two? TheScotch 05:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the purpose of any Wiki entry is to inform anyone seeking interest in the subject. The problem this creates is that terms that may not be commonly used in mainstream vernacular, such as "atonal," don't garner making the article "laymen friendly." As someone who is very interested in music but knows very little about its theory or structure, I had a very difficult time discerning just what atonal refers to. Should the article be rewritten, at least in part, so that the average music listener could understand the meaning, or should it remain in its current form, filled with jargon relevant to music theorisits?
Partly related to the discussion above; "a sample song may be worth a thousand words". I think the best way to tell a "layman" what atonality is to provide examples, thus avoiding a more or less technical discussion. Also, is the caprice by Paul Sprimont a proper example of atonal music? (I'm really asking) Ozkaplan 00:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Since Daniel French has again added a link to the video of himself playing that Sprimont piece (and if this isn't linkspam, then I'd like to know what is), let me clarify that the harmony is plainly tonal, in the key of E minor to be precise, except that it begins with a center on F, and has a few excursions into whole-tone-scale material in the middle. It is perfectly within the norms of the kind of extended tonality found in the practice of the late-19th and 20th centuries and, as a result, makes not merely a poor example for this article, but a positively misleading one.-- Jerome Kohl 21:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately Jerome, I am not the one playing the Sprimont piece. (I am 53 years old and it is obvious, from the video, that the pianist is much younger :-) ) I am also quite incapable to play like that.Acusing of linkspaming is therefore slightly excessive. In order to clarify the harmony issue, I have requested a meeting with the composer Paul Sprimont , who said himself that the piece wat atonal. I will show him your comment and will come back with his. My idea is no to mislead but to provide an example of atonal music as, as indicated by another interested party (in a nicer tone than yours, no pun intended) it's not easy to have examples that can be posted due to copyright issues. Both the composer and the interpreter agreed to the posting for this example. DCFrenchy 21:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
My mistake, I apologize for assuming DCFrenchy and the pianist Daniel French were one and the same person. (There was of course no way I could know you are 53 years old, since you have not created a Wikipedia profile.) Paul Sprimont may well believe his piece is atonal (and under certain definitions it is, though as I have said it has a clear tonal center at the end, including some dominant-tonic progressions in E minor). You might care to mention to the composer that Rainwarrior, too, hears tonal centricity in this piece. If there are to be audio examples, they ought to be unambiguous ones, preferably from a style conventionally associated with the concept of atonality (e. g., Webern, Varèse, middle-period Schoenberg, Babbitt).-- Jerome Kohl 22:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering, why is there no mention of the Pentatonic scale? I have always been taught this was a type of chromatic scale that was atonal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.83.131.213 ( talk) 17:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
I didn't ask the question correctly. I also realized another thing. This might not fit in this article. I really wanted to know why a chromatic scale and a pentatonic scale are not listed as having a sense of atonality in this article. I was taught that atonality can be used in the middle of a piece to give it color. If I was going to use a chromatic scale in the middle of a piece (or a pentatonic scale) And say I was in the key C major, and after my color was added I was going to stay in the key of C major. I would use the respected chromatic notes from the given key. This isn't always the case of course. If I was modulating to G major, it would most likely be using chromatic scale in G. I'm not an expert on music theory. One thing if for sure, chromatic, pentatonic or whole scales lack a tonal center.
(Ok first sorry for my english, that's not my mother's tongue)
I had to delete the claim including death metal bands as atonal music. That's a frequent misconception among fans of death metal to argue that death bands generally play atonality. The misconception generaly is due to a certain number of reasons:
But dissonance doesn't necessarilly mean atonality. Here's the confusion of so many people. Many tonal works can be dissonant. My point is as long as you have a tonal centre and you use tonal chords, you are tonal. And death metal bands (including Morbid angel and Deicide) use basic power chords and they favour a tonal centre thanks to the repeating of their riff. I can tell you the key for any of their songs. If I can that's because it IS tonal.
Another frequent confusion is people misunderstand the sense of tonal and atonal(ignoring they are harmonic languages) and confuse the words with issues about timbres.
Death metal generally stays tonal. A very extended and unorthodox tonality, yes, but tonality anyway.
However in metal, one can find occasionaly a few attempts of atonality (in some Progressive metal or avant-garde metal bands.) Alpha Ursae Minoris 08:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this recent imput:
because
Some may use the terms of "tones" or "tonality" in some other meaning, but in the general musical vocabulary, "the notion of "tonality" refers to a system in which certain hierarchical pitch relationships are based on a key "center" or tonic."In other words, a piece is tonal when you can tell the key of that piece (A minor, E minor or C major and so on...) It has nothing to do with the fact the pieces use pitches. Actually you seem to confuse the notion of "tonality" with the notion of "pitch" itself. That's a common use in the popular language but not in the strict musical vocabulary.
So the definition of atonality here is clear. that's any music which doesn't have any key center. I can assure you there's no key in the schoenberg's "atonal" works no matter he uses pitches. Alpha Ursae Minoris 11:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if you remove this reference but at least do it for justified reasons:
It's clear and explicit. Alpha Ursae Minoris 17:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I presume that I am the person you are addressing. First of all, I am very much aware of what Ircam is and does (quite apart from being a reference center), and often find data there unavailable elsewhere. However, it is also true that their online data is not as reliable as it might be (the puctuation of the present quotation, for example, shows that more care could have been taken with the text). Far from being "clear and explicit", the claim here is at best ambiguous. Although "compositional techniques set out by Webern between the two wars (organization of different parameters of sound by the series (and not only serialisation of the pitch of notes)" can be read to say that Webern serialized parameters other than pitch, it can also be read as saying that these were Darmstadt techniques derived from and then retrospectively sought in Webern's music (which, by the way, is the more usual understanding). Even in the writings of the Darmstadt serialists themselves, only very tentative conclusions along these were drawn, and they generally describe Webern as an "important forerunner" of their ideas, rather than as the creator of multi-parametric serialism. What is really needed is not some encyclopedic source repeating dubious platitudes, but rather a reference demonstrating the truth of the assertion that Webern ever actually serialized dynamics, rhythms, timbres, or registers. I am personally unaware of any such demonstration.-- Jerome Kohl 18:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
In this article it doesn't matter if Webern serialized or didn't. Hyacinth 23:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the last paragraph of the introduction, I'm almost certain that no works of Prokofiev, Hindemith, Bartók or Scriabin are considered strictly atonal. As far as I am aware, all of these composers used musical languages that, despite an extremely free treatment of dissonance and chromaticism, always retained a tonal center in one way or another. Of course, I might be wrong, but even so it's probably a good idea to find some citations for the claims. EdwardTattsyrup ( talk) 19:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm tempted to put a {{ refstyle}} or {{ nofootnotes}} tag on this article but I won't because although it doesn't really meet Wikipedia's style guidelines on citations, they ARE there, just not "wikified", and putting a {{ wikify}} tag on it would give editors the wrong idea. It's a big job but someone needs to go through this article and create footnotes by converting all the bare inline citations into wikilinks to the full references. A guide with a good explanation on how to do this can be found here and here. I'd do it myself if I wasn't already bogged down with work. OlEnglish ( talk) 21:09, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article states "Twelve-tone technique, combined with the parameterization of Olivier Messiaen, would be taken as the inspiration for serialism (du Noyer 2003, 272)." What does the "parameterization of Olivier Messiaen" refer to? thegoddamnbatman ( talk) 21:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the Chicago-style citation formats, which were changed without the discussion and consensus required by Wikipedia:Citing_sources. In fact, the discussion from February of this year appears to indicate consensus that Chicago format is preferred here. The flag placed a few days ago, alleging unclear citations, was not explained. The citations were perfectly clear, so far as I can see. Perhaps the motivation was simply personal preference for a different style—not an adequate reason for wholesale change. A few calls for page numbers were also added, some with justice, but most either to citations referring to entire books or articles (which do not require the inclusive page numbers of those books or articles), or to dictionary or encyclopedia articles, which in citations ordinarily do not require page numbers, either. If an argument is to be made to change from the elegant and efficient Chicago format to what seems to me an awkward footnote format, which is also vulnerable to confusion in online publications, then let that argument be put forward here.— Jerome Kohl ( talk) 04:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I would like to see more of an exposition on the left-wing culturally Marxist influences on atonal music. Ie, how it fits in with other left-wing facets of postmodern cultural Marxism. Any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.160.174 ( talk) 19:05, 12 April 2010
As seen in the text below the picture, describing Scriabin's oeuvre as atonal is at least questionable. So I'm removing it. Scriabin himself said that his works were tonal, it was just another kind of tonlity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.13.19 ( talk) 09:25, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Why is the mystic chord found in the lead of this article? Isn't atonality related mainly to the issue of relationships between sounds, as opposed to combinations of them? A 12-tone row would make much more sense there. Toccata quarta ( talk) 16:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
How many separate headers are needed for the same subject? Hyacinth ( talk) 07:55, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, I've seen that User:Jerome Kohl reverted my edits concerning the replacement of parenthetical references for sfn footnotes. While he has his point (mentioning WP:CITEVAR), was it really necessary? I mean it took me a while, and it makes the article more readable. That's a dense and somewhat "controversial" article, so it will be expanded a lot in the future, and it will need extensive sourcing. Keeping with the current style makes reading the article more tedious. Just check out the last sentence of the header, it's excessive! IMHO the sentence "if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page" applies here. Thanks!!-- Fauban 09:45, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Would traditional music such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWEa_xqKxsA&list=TLsdUrk7uB6ku4XymzGuojBcsNudoGoLse or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgWeVPIrXwQ be considered atonal? 153.188.121.94 ( talk) 05:29, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Fauban 09:45, 3 February 2013 " Keeping with the current style makes reading the article more tedious" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
" and requiring the reader to bounce back and forth from text to footnotes" Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2013
JK - I would be amazed if you need to bounce back and forth. Maybe, just maybe, you are wrong. AnnaComnemna ( talk) 10:26, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Atonality. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:02, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi, It would be really useful to cite a few well-known atonal pieces to explain what atonality is. An example is worth a thousand words. thanks Tad 115.70.130.5 ( talk) 02:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Tonal music with many scales (usually non-classical like: mode A: do, do#, re#, mi, fa#, sol, la, la#, mode B [same; shifted one semitione - up or down is same]: do, re, re#, fa, fa#, sol#, la, si) and many exceptions. Modernism (music)
Why
False-atonality =
pseudoatonality needs a different page from
modernism (music)?
because:
In 2020 atonality has been used 50% more in music according to studies.many different artist used them trippy red,xxx tentaction,yyyoungcut,kanye west and more ..but the reality is that sound can be bent which can give it a 3d effect. artist that has almost created a subgenre using atonality
.YYYOUNGCUT
.DRAKE .XXX TENTACION .KANYE WEST
173.16.234.201 ( talk) 05:44, 18 March 2022 (UTC)zombieschool records