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granted you mean well with an intro, could we imply these are ideologies as opposed to atheists being religious or spritual? Perhaps we could include humanism and materialism, etc. Just a thought? Somerset219 02:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good! Somerset219 09:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Where do things like the Religion of Humanity, Church of Humanity, Universal Humanism, and Fellowship of Reason fit?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 20:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
There are atheist New Religious Movements such as Raelianism, atheistic schools within established eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, several explicitly atheist "churches" already listed in this article, and atheist versions of Christianity and Judaism. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 06:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC) You can find a lot of information about these things under the wiki article about atheism. Also, secular spiritualism information can be found under wikipedia's spiritual article. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 06:40, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, I started a section on non-religious ideologies. It would be really splufty if there were some statistics about adherents to those philosophies. For that matter, it would be nice to have stats on overlap between atheists and religiousness, if there are any surveys which have data showing people declaring themselves to be religious and atheistic. -- Beland 19:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to know the point of this page before I make any major edits. What can be achieved here that can't be done on each religion's respective pages? 139.102.241.40 00:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The Christianity section, at least, seems pretty obviously biased against Christianity. I'd rewrite it, but I'm afraid I'd only move the bias around, not actually remove it. Perhaps we could get a Christian, agnostic, or particularly level-headed atheist to rewrite it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by UndZiggy ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Marxism tends to be atheistic because of Marx's philosophy of nature that matter comes first and mind comes second, there is no design and this is all an accident. Marx even argued that "Religion is the opium of the masses", that it was used by the bourgeoisie to control the people. The Communist parties in the Communist countries only allowed atheists into their party, in fact some went far by persecuting religions, like Albania under Enver Hoxha where it was declared the world's first atheist state. However, the Communist party in Cuba, since 1991, has allowed theists and people of all other religions into their party."
This needs to be re-written, seriously —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.130.128 ( talk) 01:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence in the Scientology section is noteworthy in relation to large or well known atheistic "religions", however the latter part is completely pointless in relation to the article. The recognition or objection to the idea or belief in a "soul" has no place in relation to atheism. The section addresses it as if the concept of a "soul" as Scientologists would understand it somehow creates a vagueness or debate whether or not Scientology is atheistic at it's core.
Scientology claims to accept all faiths, even those believing in a higher power. However it flatly rejects the existence of any higher power. In fact specifically claiming that the belief in a higher power, God, god, gods and deities are the result of "brainwashing" and are in fact false, put there in order to blah blah blah, so on and so forth.
I'm removing the latter and suggesting someone else re-write it, or merge it into another section, so it doesn't remain a space taking blurb. 203.206.17.120 ( talk) 07:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC) Sutter Cane
The only example here is from the United States. There must be other countries where this has come up. - 220.101 talk \Contribs 02:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Atheism is not a religion in the United States. It is only secured under the laws that allow for religious freedom, which include freedom from religion. Try again. 124.169.44.127 ( talk) 04:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC) Sutter Cane
Atheism, is a religion and philosophy in the United States, it is protected under the United States Constitution as a religious practice. The United States Supreme Court when deliberating on First Amendment rights has said a "religion" need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being or deities.
The United States happens to be the leader in civil rights and usually set the bar for others to balance on. This page description is incorrect and misleading, there is also a "First Church of Atheism" in case you guys didn't get that memo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelostmachine ( talk • contribs) 03:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Sigh. Just sigh. Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. It holds no ideology, no belief system, no rituals and no unified rules other than they lack belief in deities. The Supreme Court decision has ROUTINELY and SPECIFICALLY detailed that freedom OF religion means freedom from religion as well, which is how atheism and non-religious are covered under the constitutions protection. Describing religions that don't have deities, which are called atheistic religions, does not magically make those religions the religion of atheism. They are religions that lack deities, which is why they are atheistic. The adherents lack the belief in deities, making their adherents atheists. Everything else they do? Completely unrelated to atheism. Which is why the religion of Satanism has the same atheists as atheistic Buddhist religions.
Those religions are covered, as is specified by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court NEVER stated that atheism was a religion. In fact specifying on numerous different cases that non-religion and atheism is protected under the same amendment because it guarantees freedom FROM relgion, which flat out refutes the claim they are religious. 220.253.208.228 ( talk) 23:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC) Sutter Cane
How is it that the absence definition has snuck its way in here as not only primary but singular. Atheism as a the absence of theism is not commonly used by scholars and when used is controversial and contested. Can someone please explain? Thanks. Griswaldo ( talk) 11:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Please note this revert, and subsequent re-revert. Aaronwayneodonahue, edit warring isn't constructive. I checked every single link I removed, and as I specified in my edit summary, some of them are dead ( [1]), others do not relate to the subject ( [2]), and none are reliable sources. Most of these are random blogs - [3] - which do not in any way back up the article content. Please read through WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:EL. References are not "external links" tangentially related to the subject. These 18 random websites have to go, per policy. — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
You are the least qualified person to be making changes to this section if you are not already aware of tons of secondary sources for the Church of the FSM, and you are BLIND if you cannot see that a secondary source is provided already in the section dealing with the adherent of the parody religion in Austria who wore the strainer on his head on a liscense photo. The Church of the FSM has it's own published book and has made news all over. As far as the Church of Atheism of Eau Claire, yes, a secondary source would include the following: http://volumeone.org/magazine/articles/451/Reverend_Aaron.html I'll also note that YOUR links relating to the texas groups do not have secondary sources supporting them, yet you choose to retain them. Why is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
If you want secondary sources for the Church of the FSM, take your pick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk) 07:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
There are also TONS of other atheist parody religions out there that have already made it to wiki and yes many have secondary sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody_religion But I would like to not how ABSURD it is to find secondary sources to affirm the existence of a website, when you could just link to the website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 07:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I'll also point out this revert, based on an edit made by Aaronwayneodonahue earlier. I'm a little disheartened by the edit warring that's taking place instead of discussion. The content being removed is an article by the ACA, written by Matt Dillahunty, which explicitly discusses the court case in detail. This appears to be relevant, and I see no basis to deem articles from the ACA as being unreliable. It was claimed in an edit summary that this is a personal blog, but I see no foundation for that claim. It appears to be an article written by a member of the ACA, and presented on their site as such, which qualifies it to be used as a source here. I'll note that we also don't have any other reliable secondary sources which discuss the case, save this one, and so removing it would require a {{cn}} tag be placed instead to back up our current wording. — Jess· Δ ♥ 17:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Aaronwayneodonahue was blocked for edit warring, but I'd welcome him back in 24 hours to respond to the queries above. In the meantime, he made a few changes in clear violation of WP:POINT and other policies, and as such, I'm going to revert to an older version of the page before the warring. If anyone feels this is pre-emptive, and that we should wait to restore this content, please feel free to revert me, and we can give it a few days for discussion. However, I don't feel these edits are particularly controversial, so I personally don't see a strong need to wait. All the best, — Jess· Δ ♥ 21:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
This article rarely has any views and the information contained in it is available under wikipedia's article on atheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
According to a review of GSS data:
Among those holding belief in a higher power, thirty-six percent report never attending church and another sixteen percent go less than once a year. Indeed, seventy percent of respondents who believe in a higher power go to church once a year or less—making them nearly as inactive in religious organizations as committed atheists.
A small percentage of respondents who believe in a higher power, about three percent, report going to church weekly or nearly weekly—while the corresponding percentage of atheists with at least weekly attendance is ten percent. Agnostics attend church even less frequently than do those who believe in a higher power, with forty-nine percent reporting that they never attend church. Atheists are similarly, and understandably, less active in religious groups, with nearly fifty-four percent reporting that they never attend.
What is interesting, however, is that somewhat higher proportions of atheists report relatively regular church attendance when compared to agnostics or those who believe in a higher power. The motivation for participation in religious organizations by atheists is likely not a function of preferences for religious goods, though atheism is embraced by many Unitarian-Universalist and other liberal Protestant congregations. Instead, atheists’ motivations for participation in religious groups probably stem from social influences, such as a desire for camaraderie, status, or political activities.
—Sherkat, Darren E. (31 July 2008).
"BEYOND BELIEF: ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM, AND THEISTIC CERTAINTY IN THE UNITED STATES". Sociological Spectrum. 28 (5): 438–459.
doi:
10.1080/02732170802205932. Retrieved 14 December 2011. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
Where would this fit best? u n☯ mi 07:55, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't this relate to this topic: 109th Sura (chapter) of the Qur'an, the Al-Kafirun (also called Atheists, The Unbelievers) 99.109.127.141 ( talk) 07:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I inserted this as the introduction is a bit confusing, and it seems to encapsulate the spirit of religious atheism ofer the ages Timpo ( talk) 14:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The Lead section needs to be rewritten to be a concise summary of the article. Editor2020, Talk 01:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Kafir does not mean atheist. It means disbeliever, and not disbeliever in God, dis-believer in our god. In the Qur'an it's used for non-muslisms, almost always as a metaphor totum pro parte, for the alleged polytheists of Medina who serve as the antagonists in the Meccan suras of the Qur'an ( 1, 2, 3). Today, in a casual contexts kafir can be used for anyone who isn't Muslim with no ill intent or feeling behind it. The most common word for atheist is mul7id. Dahri also exists, meaning temporal minded. Historically and religiously, zindiq (heretic) and murtad (apostate) are used. They are derogatory.
The section in general is of low equality. I suspect the editor who wrote it made it for the sake of coverage rather than providing anything accurate or insightful. It's also original research since it depends on no secondary sources. It needs to be rewritten.
This is not an invitation for POV white washing. -- 94.174.73.195 ( talk) 17:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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I just happened by and I observed that the various religious views of atheism are discussed, but only the views of Islam are quoted from religious texts. And extensively so. It's completely unbalanced. I feel that someone is using this page to promote Islam on this issue. No one would use Wikipedia to promote their own interests, would they? Try simply citing the relevant sections instead of using Wikipedia to promote one religion over all others. That's my impression and proposed solution. I could be wrong, of course. -- Lawfare ( talk) 00:37, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Atheism and religion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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granted you mean well with an intro, could we imply these are ideologies as opposed to atheists being religious or spritual? Perhaps we could include humanism and materialism, etc. Just a thought? Somerset219 02:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good! Somerset219 09:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Where do things like the Religion of Humanity, Church of Humanity, Universal Humanism, and Fellowship of Reason fit?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 20:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
There are atheist New Religious Movements such as Raelianism, atheistic schools within established eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, several explicitly atheist "churches" already listed in this article, and atheist versions of Christianity and Judaism. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 06:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC) You can find a lot of information about these things under the wiki article about atheism. Also, secular spiritualism information can be found under wikipedia's spiritual article. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 06:40, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, I started a section on non-religious ideologies. It would be really splufty if there were some statistics about adherents to those philosophies. For that matter, it would be nice to have stats on overlap between atheists and religiousness, if there are any surveys which have data showing people declaring themselves to be religious and atheistic. -- Beland 19:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to know the point of this page before I make any major edits. What can be achieved here that can't be done on each religion's respective pages? 139.102.241.40 00:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
The Christianity section, at least, seems pretty obviously biased against Christianity. I'd rewrite it, but I'm afraid I'd only move the bias around, not actually remove it. Perhaps we could get a Christian, agnostic, or particularly level-headed atheist to rewrite it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by UndZiggy ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
"Marxism tends to be atheistic because of Marx's philosophy of nature that matter comes first and mind comes second, there is no design and this is all an accident. Marx even argued that "Religion is the opium of the masses", that it was used by the bourgeoisie to control the people. The Communist parties in the Communist countries only allowed atheists into their party, in fact some went far by persecuting religions, like Albania under Enver Hoxha where it was declared the world's first atheist state. However, the Communist party in Cuba, since 1991, has allowed theists and people of all other religions into their party."
This needs to be re-written, seriously —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.130.128 ( talk) 01:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence in the Scientology section is noteworthy in relation to large or well known atheistic "religions", however the latter part is completely pointless in relation to the article. The recognition or objection to the idea or belief in a "soul" has no place in relation to atheism. The section addresses it as if the concept of a "soul" as Scientologists would understand it somehow creates a vagueness or debate whether or not Scientology is atheistic at it's core.
Scientology claims to accept all faiths, even those believing in a higher power. However it flatly rejects the existence of any higher power. In fact specifically claiming that the belief in a higher power, God, god, gods and deities are the result of "brainwashing" and are in fact false, put there in order to blah blah blah, so on and so forth.
I'm removing the latter and suggesting someone else re-write it, or merge it into another section, so it doesn't remain a space taking blurb. 203.206.17.120 ( talk) 07:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC) Sutter Cane
The only example here is from the United States. There must be other countries where this has come up. - 220.101 talk \Contribs 02:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Atheism is not a religion in the United States. It is only secured under the laws that allow for religious freedom, which include freedom from religion. Try again. 124.169.44.127 ( talk) 04:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC) Sutter Cane
Atheism, is a religion and philosophy in the United States, it is protected under the United States Constitution as a religious practice. The United States Supreme Court when deliberating on First Amendment rights has said a "religion" need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being or deities.
The United States happens to be the leader in civil rights and usually set the bar for others to balance on. This page description is incorrect and misleading, there is also a "First Church of Atheism" in case you guys didn't get that memo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelostmachine ( talk • contribs) 03:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Sigh. Just sigh. Atheism is the lack of belief in deities. It holds no ideology, no belief system, no rituals and no unified rules other than they lack belief in deities. The Supreme Court decision has ROUTINELY and SPECIFICALLY detailed that freedom OF religion means freedom from religion as well, which is how atheism and non-religious are covered under the constitutions protection. Describing religions that don't have deities, which are called atheistic religions, does not magically make those religions the religion of atheism. They are religions that lack deities, which is why they are atheistic. The adherents lack the belief in deities, making their adherents atheists. Everything else they do? Completely unrelated to atheism. Which is why the religion of Satanism has the same atheists as atheistic Buddhist religions.
Those religions are covered, as is specified by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court NEVER stated that atheism was a religion. In fact specifying on numerous different cases that non-religion and atheism is protected under the same amendment because it guarantees freedom FROM relgion, which flat out refutes the claim they are religious. 220.253.208.228 ( talk) 23:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC) Sutter Cane
How is it that the absence definition has snuck its way in here as not only primary but singular. Atheism as a the absence of theism is not commonly used by scholars and when used is controversial and contested. Can someone please explain? Thanks. Griswaldo ( talk) 11:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Please note this revert, and subsequent re-revert. Aaronwayneodonahue, edit warring isn't constructive. I checked every single link I removed, and as I specified in my edit summary, some of them are dead ( [1]), others do not relate to the subject ( [2]), and none are reliable sources. Most of these are random blogs - [3] - which do not in any way back up the article content. Please read through WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:EL. References are not "external links" tangentially related to the subject. These 18 random websites have to go, per policy. — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
You are the least qualified person to be making changes to this section if you are not already aware of tons of secondary sources for the Church of the FSM, and you are BLIND if you cannot see that a secondary source is provided already in the section dealing with the adherent of the parody religion in Austria who wore the strainer on his head on a liscense photo. The Church of the FSM has it's own published book and has made news all over. As far as the Church of Atheism of Eau Claire, yes, a secondary source would include the following: http://volumeone.org/magazine/articles/451/Reverend_Aaron.html I'll also note that YOUR links relating to the texas groups do not have secondary sources supporting them, yet you choose to retain them. Why is that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
If you want secondary sources for the Church of the FSM, take your pick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk) 07:34, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
There are also TONS of other atheist parody religions out there that have already made it to wiki and yes many have secondary sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody_religion But I would like to not how ABSURD it is to find secondary sources to affirm the existence of a website, when you could just link to the website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 07:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I'll also point out this revert, based on an edit made by Aaronwayneodonahue earlier. I'm a little disheartened by the edit warring that's taking place instead of discussion. The content being removed is an article by the ACA, written by Matt Dillahunty, which explicitly discusses the court case in detail. This appears to be relevant, and I see no basis to deem articles from the ACA as being unreliable. It was claimed in an edit summary that this is a personal blog, but I see no foundation for that claim. It appears to be an article written by a member of the ACA, and presented on their site as such, which qualifies it to be used as a source here. I'll note that we also don't have any other reliable secondary sources which discuss the case, save this one, and so removing it would require a {{cn}} tag be placed instead to back up our current wording. — Jess· Δ ♥ 17:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Aaronwayneodonahue was blocked for edit warring, but I'd welcome him back in 24 hours to respond to the queries above. In the meantime, he made a few changes in clear violation of WP:POINT and other policies, and as such, I'm going to revert to an older version of the page before the warring. If anyone feels this is pre-emptive, and that we should wait to restore this content, please feel free to revert me, and we can give it a few days for discussion. However, I don't feel these edits are particularly controversial, so I personally don't see a strong need to wait. All the best, — Jess· Δ ♥ 21:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
This article rarely has any views and the information contained in it is available under wikipedia's article on atheism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
According to a review of GSS data:
Among those holding belief in a higher power, thirty-six percent report never attending church and another sixteen percent go less than once a year. Indeed, seventy percent of respondents who believe in a higher power go to church once a year or less—making them nearly as inactive in religious organizations as committed atheists.
A small percentage of respondents who believe in a higher power, about three percent, report going to church weekly or nearly weekly—while the corresponding percentage of atheists with at least weekly attendance is ten percent. Agnostics attend church even less frequently than do those who believe in a higher power, with forty-nine percent reporting that they never attend church. Atheists are similarly, and understandably, less active in religious groups, with nearly fifty-four percent reporting that they never attend.
What is interesting, however, is that somewhat higher proportions of atheists report relatively regular church attendance when compared to agnostics or those who believe in a higher power. The motivation for participation in religious organizations by atheists is likely not a function of preferences for religious goods, though atheism is embraced by many Unitarian-Universalist and other liberal Protestant congregations. Instead, atheists’ motivations for participation in religious groups probably stem from social influences, such as a desire for camaraderie, status, or political activities.
—Sherkat, Darren E. (31 July 2008).
"BEYOND BELIEF: ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM, AND THEISTIC CERTAINTY IN THE UNITED STATES". Sociological Spectrum. 28 (5): 438–459.
doi:
10.1080/02732170802205932. Retrieved 14 December 2011. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)CS1 maint: date and year (
link)
Where would this fit best? u n☯ mi 07:55, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't this relate to this topic: 109th Sura (chapter) of the Qur'an, the Al-Kafirun (also called Atheists, The Unbelievers) 99.109.127.141 ( talk) 07:42, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I inserted this as the introduction is a bit confusing, and it seems to encapsulate the spirit of religious atheism ofer the ages Timpo ( talk) 14:45, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
The Lead section needs to be rewritten to be a concise summary of the article. Editor2020, Talk 01:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Kafir does not mean atheist. It means disbeliever, and not disbeliever in God, dis-believer in our god. In the Qur'an it's used for non-muslisms, almost always as a metaphor totum pro parte, for the alleged polytheists of Medina who serve as the antagonists in the Meccan suras of the Qur'an ( 1, 2, 3). Today, in a casual contexts kafir can be used for anyone who isn't Muslim with no ill intent or feeling behind it. The most common word for atheist is mul7id. Dahri also exists, meaning temporal minded. Historically and religiously, zindiq (heretic) and murtad (apostate) are used. They are derogatory.
The section in general is of low equality. I suspect the editor who wrote it made it for the sake of coverage rather than providing anything accurate or insightful. It's also original research since it depends on no secondary sources. It needs to be rewritten.
This is not an invitation for POV white washing. -- 94.174.73.195 ( talk) 17:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
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I just happened by and I observed that the various religious views of atheism are discussed, but only the views of Islam are quoted from religious texts. And extensively so. It's completely unbalanced. I feel that someone is using this page to promote Islam on this issue. No one would use Wikipedia to promote their own interests, would they? Try simply citing the relevant sections instead of using Wikipedia to promote one religion over all others. That's my impression and proposed solution. I could be wrong, of course. -- Lawfare ( talk) 00:37, 7 December 2018 (UTC)