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![]() | This article contains a translation of H aspiré from fr.wikipedia. |
Why is this article listed under the Phonology section in the French series? I see absolutely nothing in here discussing the actual realisation of <h> by native French speakers asides the first few brief introductory lines. The rest is just a dictionary list of words beginning with h-, which in my opinion is not of much relevance (are you talking about the aspirated h or the letter h?).
If you're aiming for phonology, then the article should explain why in modern Standard French, certain words such as hibou don't allow liaison (le hibou /lə.i.bu/); that is, a more historical explanation of the realisation of the hiatus in the French language. Moreover, it should compare the Standard to actual spoken French, and to various dialects. For example, it's not uncommon for the hiatus to disappear, so le hibou becomes /li.bu/. Other dialects may actually retain the aspirated consonant as /lə.hi.bu/, which contrasts in minimal pairs such as eau /o/ and haut /ho/. Other realisations of /h/ may include [ɦ] or [x] depending on the dialect. - Io Katai ( talk) 01:01, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Since in German we speak a glottal stop in front of words starting with vowels, it’s hard to rid oneself of that habit in English, so some accent reduction trainers recommend speaking a very little—if possible silent—“h” in front of such words. That might be interesting in this context, but I don’t see how it could fit in with the current article. – Telofy ( talk) 16:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Has there ever been talk of removing the unaspirated ‹h›es from the orthography to make it more consistent? The unaspirated ‹h› serves no purpose that I know. Though ludicrously complex, French orthography is more-or-less consistent. Then there's the presence of the silent ‹h›es in the much-simpler Spanish orthography... don't even get me started on English. — ˈzɪzɨvə ( talk) 22:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be in a French Appendix in Wiktionary instead? I doubt that Wikipedia is the place for such tables. Anivisual ( talk) 16:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Can an h aspiré really be pronounced with a glottal stop? A glottal stop is, after all, quite hard a consonant if you think of it, and sounds certainly un-French to me (though I'm German). A real h, with very weak intonation, sounds possible to me or at least better then a glottal stop. -- 91.34.219.10 ( talk) 10:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The tables are still in French to some extent with « (n. propre f.) » and « (adj. ou n. m.) ».
Varlaam (
talk)
17:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
... are messy and apparently half-nonsensical. Something simpler, e.g. 'mute mainly in the words inherited from Latin etc., aspirated mainly in Frankish loanwords etc.', would be better. 89.231.112.93 ( talk) 00:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
There is an extensive linguistics literature on h aspiré: Robert Hall, 1948; Jakobson and Lotz, Sound Shape of Language 1949; N.C.W. Spence, "French ‘mute e’: The basic difficulties"; Elisabeth O. Selkirk and Jean-Roger Vergnaud, "How Abstract Is French Phonology?"; etc. etc. This should be covered in this article. -- Macrakis ( talk) 17:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
I can't find anything in the article about the affected pronunciation of the aspirate by (e.g.) english speakers using a word of french origin such as "hotel". I've witnessed both "a hotel" & "an otel" in colloquial english speech; is this area not worth of a mention, or is it sitting somewhere else in WP, in whcih case should it not be linked from here?
duncanrmi ( talk) 11:48, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
It's more than two years since someone tagged the word lists as being on the verge of transfer to Wiktionary. Did that ever happen? When I saw the lists, before I noticed the tag it occurred to me that they were more fodder for a dictionary than an encyclopedia, just as lists of French words ending in "-er" where the "r" is pronounced and French words with "ill" where the "ll" is pronounced as /l/ would be. Largoplazo ( talk) 03:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Pinging @ Some Gadget Geek:, who posted the tag. Largoplazo ( talk) 03:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
There are also some words that are not spelled with an initial h, but are treated as if they have an aspirated h regardless, such as "oui", "onze", "yaourt", etc, but this article does not mention them at all. Andersyu31415 ( talk) 15:32, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
The sentence: "Before other vowels, the h is often aspirated, except for those coming from the oldest Greek roots." in the section List of French words which begin with an aspirated h fails to refer to what were the first vowels that this sentence refers to. In my limited search through the history, I didn't see a sentence that had been erased that would have preceded this. Any clarification? LeoDaVinci ( talk) 17:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This article contains a translation of H aspiré from fr.wikipedia. |
Why is this article listed under the Phonology section in the French series? I see absolutely nothing in here discussing the actual realisation of <h> by native French speakers asides the first few brief introductory lines. The rest is just a dictionary list of words beginning with h-, which in my opinion is not of much relevance (are you talking about the aspirated h or the letter h?).
If you're aiming for phonology, then the article should explain why in modern Standard French, certain words such as hibou don't allow liaison (le hibou /lə.i.bu/); that is, a more historical explanation of the realisation of the hiatus in the French language. Moreover, it should compare the Standard to actual spoken French, and to various dialects. For example, it's not uncommon for the hiatus to disappear, so le hibou becomes /li.bu/. Other dialects may actually retain the aspirated consonant as /lə.hi.bu/, which contrasts in minimal pairs such as eau /o/ and haut /ho/. Other realisations of /h/ may include [ɦ] or [x] depending on the dialect. - Io Katai ( talk) 01:01, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Since in German we speak a glottal stop in front of words starting with vowels, it’s hard to rid oneself of that habit in English, so some accent reduction trainers recommend speaking a very little—if possible silent—“h” in front of such words. That might be interesting in this context, but I don’t see how it could fit in with the current article. – Telofy ( talk) 16:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Has there ever been talk of removing the unaspirated ‹h›es from the orthography to make it more consistent? The unaspirated ‹h› serves no purpose that I know. Though ludicrously complex, French orthography is more-or-less consistent. Then there's the presence of the silent ‹h›es in the much-simpler Spanish orthography... don't even get me started on English. — ˈzɪzɨvə ( talk) 22:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be in a French Appendix in Wiktionary instead? I doubt that Wikipedia is the place for such tables. Anivisual ( talk) 16:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Can an h aspiré really be pronounced with a glottal stop? A glottal stop is, after all, quite hard a consonant if you think of it, and sounds certainly un-French to me (though I'm German). A real h, with very weak intonation, sounds possible to me or at least better then a glottal stop. -- 91.34.219.10 ( talk) 10:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
The tables are still in French to some extent with « (n. propre f.) » and « (adj. ou n. m.) ».
Varlaam (
talk)
17:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
... are messy and apparently half-nonsensical. Something simpler, e.g. 'mute mainly in the words inherited from Latin etc., aspirated mainly in Frankish loanwords etc.', would be better. 89.231.112.93 ( talk) 00:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
There is an extensive linguistics literature on h aspiré: Robert Hall, 1948; Jakobson and Lotz, Sound Shape of Language 1949; N.C.W. Spence, "French ‘mute e’: The basic difficulties"; Elisabeth O. Selkirk and Jean-Roger Vergnaud, "How Abstract Is French Phonology?"; etc. etc. This should be covered in this article. -- Macrakis ( talk) 17:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
I can't find anything in the article about the affected pronunciation of the aspirate by (e.g.) english speakers using a word of french origin such as "hotel". I've witnessed both "a hotel" & "an otel" in colloquial english speech; is this area not worth of a mention, or is it sitting somewhere else in WP, in whcih case should it not be linked from here?
duncanrmi ( talk) 11:48, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
It's more than two years since someone tagged the word lists as being on the verge of transfer to Wiktionary. Did that ever happen? When I saw the lists, before I noticed the tag it occurred to me that they were more fodder for a dictionary than an encyclopedia, just as lists of French words ending in "-er" where the "r" is pronounced and French words with "ill" where the "ll" is pronounced as /l/ would be. Largoplazo ( talk) 03:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
Pinging @ Some Gadget Geek:, who posted the tag. Largoplazo ( talk) 03:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
There are also some words that are not spelled with an initial h, but are treated as if they have an aspirated h regardless, such as "oui", "onze", "yaourt", etc, but this article does not mention them at all. Andersyu31415 ( talk) 15:32, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
The sentence: "Before other vowels, the h is often aspirated, except for those coming from the oldest Greek roots." in the section List of French words which begin with an aspirated h fails to refer to what were the first vowels that this sentence refers to. In my limited search through the history, I didn't see a sentence that had been erased that would have preceded this. Any clarification? LeoDaVinci ( talk) 17:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)