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The whole "Online Battle" thing is a myth, has no truth to it at all - mesothelioma and asbestos actually have very average cost per click in online advertising - and was probably put there simply to give a free link and traffic to the supposed reference site, which has no real verifiable information (a simple search using the google tool shows that the conclusions are fake) and is full of pay-per-click advertising ITSELF, which I find hilarious.
Serious NPOV issues still exist. No data is provided to support the validity of such asbestos class action suits, but rather only their legitimacy is questioned.
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Asbestosis - Compensation and Liability Disputes
It has been commented that this item is (was? - already modified) uduly biassed. The topic is important, and I feel would benefit from a wider input, to guarantee an appropriate NPOV. The proposed summary deletion seems rather "unWiki-like". - Please contribute !
Asbestosis_-_Compensation_and_Liability_Disputes Deletion/Keep/Merge Debate page
Proposed new Title': Asbestos-Related Diseases: Industrial Health and Safety Issues
The request for deletion debate resulted in a vote NOT to delete , but rather to undertake a "clean-up" of the item in question, the deletion debate itself is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please contribute on article clean-up Wikityke
Hundreds of thousands have died from asbestos related diseases. I can also tell you what it was like to watch my robust wonderful father die a hideous death. Before you start touting 'exaggerations' of the danger of asbestos, I suggest you read about why 60 countries banned it. MollyBloom 04:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
quercus robur 00:13, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What do you think JFW? I've made a few changes myself, over on this "compensation" page, paraphrasing some quotes and removing some of the more emotional language. I've also included a few references to research in this field (hopefully a "balanced mix"), as suggested by Ed. Should the NPOV and CLEANUP be maintained, or is it ready to have these tags removed? Thanks for any suggestions. Wikityke 11:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Many thanks to Ed, for his excellent "cleanup" work on the article. Wikityke 23:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about your latest edit, Ed (20:27, 27 Jan 2005). Ok, they admit that there's still no universal consenus (frankly I doubt there ever will be!!) but the HSE are generally very conservative from what I've seen (hence their admission of lack of consensus). Maybe we should at least keep something on the fact that the evidence shows ("seems to indicate"?) that any minimum "cut-off" must really be at a very low level. What do you think?
With, or without a partial revert along these lines, I vote to remove the NPOV and CLEANUP.
Wikityke 22:02, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The US Senate is now considering the trust fund bill. I'll try to keep this current. -- Christofurio 01:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This was what was stated in the article: ..."settlements have also threatened some of the World's largest insurance companies." ( BBC report on Lloyds).
This statement is not only unsubstantiated, but the article it references says nothing about the "world's largest insurance companies" being threatened. This is an article about Lloyd's investors suing Lloyds for fraud, over the pending losses. If Lloyd's is threatened, it is because of its own misrepresentation and fraud, not because of asbestos lawsuits. MollyBloom 04:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The Names sued four defendants: the Corporation of Lloyd's, the Society of Lloyd's, the Council of Lloyd's, (collectively, "Lloyd's") and Lloyd's of London, (the "unincorporated association"). Lloyd's is a market in which more than three hundred Underwriting Agencies compete for underwriting business. Pursuant to the Lloyd's Act of 1871-1982, Lloyd's oversees and regulates the competition for underwriting business in the Lloyd's market. The market does not accept premiums or insure risks. Rather, Underwriting Agencies, or syndicates, compete for the insurance business. Each Underwriting Agency is controlled by a Managing Agent who is responsible for the financial status of its agency. The Managing Agent must attract not only underwriting business from brokers but also the capital with which to insure the risks underwritten.
I suspect the news article did not make the legal differentiation. But the cause of action was undoubtely accurate. jgwlaw 20:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Self-proclaimed 'experts' who proclaimed the dangers from asbestos are 'junk science' are themselves the junk scientists. The term 'junk science' is a political soundbite, not a term about the merits of science. These arbiters of junk science are political pundits. I was astonished to read that one announced in 2001 that lives would have been saved on 9-11 if more asbestos had been used. Of course, that was ludicrous at the time, and is even more so now that we know more about the levels of asbestos inhaled by firemen etc.
There is NO doubt whatsoever that asbestos causes mesothelioma, asbestosis, lung and other types of cancer. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Asbestos is also found in the lungs upon atopsy. There is no 'he said' or 'she said' about this. The science documents and has for 100 years the dangers of asbestos. I can only presume that anyone who thinks there should be 'balance' in a discussion about the dangers of asbestos either does not understand the problem, or they have listented to people who know nothing. I have included citations from the EPA, various internet sites, and toxicology textbooks. There are many more references available, and one can check at any medical library. There is not even a scintilla of medical dispute about the dangers of asbestos. Now, there is discussion about how dangerous one size of fiber is versus another, but NO legitimate doctor or scientist disputes that people die from asbestos exposure. Every government in the industrialized world has acknowledged the dangers.
But you seem to have missed the point about the "junk science" charge. It concerns the forensic use of science, i.e. its use to try to establish that A's death or injury was caused by X, in whole or in part (and if in part, how much). It isn't enough to say: Defendant was doing X, we know that X can cause death, plaintiff died, the death was consistent with causation by X, so let us find the defendant liable. What is missing there is actual causation, and that is exactly where the junk sneaks in. After all, a given plaintiff's decedent could have been around asbestos, and/or various forms of radiation, and could have been a smoker besides. Likewise, I might be pushed out a window, and then while I am falling to the ground, somebody might shoot me through the heart. Real science can determine which I died of ... the bullet or the fall. Phony science says, "both the pusher and the shooter did something bad, so charge them each 100% as if he had died twice." No ... don't. Justice isn't vindictiveness, and science isn't in itself either of those. -- Christofurio 00:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
If you were pushed out of the window, and while falling to the gorund, someone shot you, there would be culpability for both malfeasors- but a different culpability. THe person shoving you out the window would be charged with attempted murder. The shooter would be charged with murder (or involuntary manslaughter depending on the intent). In this scenario, it was not foreseeable that a someone would shoot you after you were pushed. However, if you were pushed off a building to the street below, survived only to be run over by a truck....well the pusher would be liable for murder. Why? It is foreseeable that pushing you off a bulding onto a street would place you in a position to be run over by a truck. Junk science has nothing to do with this at all. But back to the pusher & shooter... Now if you hit the ground, and the shot combined with the fall caused the death, then both the pusher and the shooter would be liable for murder, understandably, because both were a 'cause in fact' - both substantially contributed to your untimely demise. The law is very fair and logical when allocating fault.
Turning to a third scenario....3 people shoot and the victim dies from the wounds. Suppose for sake of argument, that it cannot be ascertained which person shot the fatal bullet. In that case, all 3 would be culpable. All three had the mens rea (intent) and all three committed the 'actus rea' - the criminal act. The causation here would be split, or the burden shifted to the defendant to show his shot did not cause the fatality.
None of this is junk science. None of this is vindictiveness. It is our legal justice system, and it works pretty well. There has to be some policy driven decisions in any legal system, but ours (in the US) is pretty reasonable.
Turning to asbestos....and I will only address mesothelioma. Mesothelioma by itself is a fatal disease. It kills whether a person smoked, or didn't smoke. The fibers can be found in the lungs. My father died of mesothelioma and never smoked, or was around smoking. Had he smoked, it is likely that he might have died sooner, but that is just speculation. Had he smoked, the cause of his death would still have been mesothelioma attributable to asbestos. Radiation does not cause mesothelioma, either. In all cases, mesothelioma would be the cause of death (unless the person died from lung cancer typical of smoking, or emphezema etc. before succombing to mesothelioma). Mesothelioma is not the kind of lung cancer one acquires from smoking. Mesothelioma is a cancer of the mesothelial lining of the lung. The cause of death is very clear and well documented. It is crystal clear, in fact. Asbestos is the only known cause of mesothelioma. Causation here is very clear cut. There is no 'junk science' at all.
jgwlaw 18:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Bob Herrick 23:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
It's true that there may be no way to pinpoint exactly where exposure came from--but saying "we don't know where you were exposed to asbestos" is not the same thing as "therefore something else caused your mesothelioma". Khazeh 20:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Bob Herrick
21:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
--
Bob Herrick (
talk)
21:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh and one more thing. The term 'junk science' is a highly charged, political term that has little meaning except to pundits.
jgwlaw 19:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Obviously it's intended as a derogatory term. Nobody calls their own views junk science, just as no government calls itself a tyranny. But that doesn't make the charge itself meaningless. It might be right or wrong in a particular instance, but it has meaning. As a simple matter of tort law, the shooter in the case I referenced would be liable for my death, in a wrongful death action. Not the one who pushed me off the roof, since that didn't in this hypothesis cause my death. (Criminal charges are another matter.) The charge of "junk science" is generally made in the tort context and I believe I have shown that it does have a meaning there, whether one is a pundit or not. A "junk" scientist is anybody who would take the stand to bolster the tort case against the pusher rather than the shooter. --
Christofurio
15:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
ONe final comment. If you are trying to make some analogy to asbestos cases, it doesn't fit. Same tort laws would apply. I suspect you are thinking of smoking. THat is actually a logically different issue. If someone smokes and it can be proven that smoking contributed to the injury, as well as asbestos, it does not clear the defendant. It may reduce the award, but it wouldn't clear him. In most jurisdictions, in a wrongful death suit, it is not necessary that the defendant's action be the sole cause of death. That is not 'junk science'. And with mesothelioma, of course, it is irrelevant, because mesothelioma is fatal with or without smoking. jgwlaw 07:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
This is not a forum for bashing lawyers. It is not a political forum. To make this a rant on tort reform, or an article by political pundits on alleged fraud is wrong. Instead, it should be a discussion of the legal issues related to asbestos. This includes regulation, civil litigation (existing and proposed) and criminal prosecution. Corporate losses from asbestos are not only attributable to civil litigation,. Corporations are being indicted on criminal charges, as well. There also is a section on Environmental law & criminal prosecution. The environmental issues surrounding asbestos removal are huge. I said 'dozens' of cases have been prosecuted...it's probably many more than that. This is a health issue, as evidenced by the WR Grace prosecution. Please people, lets stop with the lawyer bashing. I couldn't believe the article as it was when I first saw it. That's not informative; it's a rant. Let's keep it clean, factual and informative. MollyBloom 02:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference list, and am starting the process of adding proper citations for the references. IT will take some time, and I welcome any help available. I am still a little inexperienced at the Wiki formatting but am getting the hang of it. Still, help would be nice! ;-) jgwlaw 18:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This could be an interesting paragraph - Could the author clarify, please? What were the payouts - lawsuits over key words, or payments, or what? To whom by whom, and for what? A citation that might explain would be helpful. Thank you! Jance 21:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
That was my edit, its actually because I help manage the pay per click accounts for a major asbestos lawyer. I will try to add some more information to the article when I can Boston2austin 21:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
A front page story in yesterday's Wall Street Journal suggests there is a developing scandal over insider trading in the asbestos context. Apparently, somebody in Congress or working for a member of Congress told investors or the agents of investors that there would be some movement soon in the tort claims relief bill re: asbestos, and the investors loaded up on the instruments of the corporations that would benefit. Anybody want to tackle this? -- Christofurio 16:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag; legitimate criticism of asbestos litigation is entirely absent from the article. See also Baron & Budd Script Memo controversy.
I attach here a partial list of links to problems with asbestos litigation for future editors to address. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] -- TedFrank 17:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I randomly choose a source listed above, and added a criticism section. NPOV tags removed. - Roy Boy 03:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed many asbestos/mesothelioma related pages have been spammed with links to dalekozor.com. Just an FYI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boston2austin ( talk • contribs) 22:40, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a primary source for this assertion? I have found evidence of workers' compensation claims starting in 1927, and there may be some tort action at about the same time (particularly if employer's liability before the workers' comp law began to cover occupational disease) but the cited source http://www.1-stop-mesothelioma-asbestos.com/html/history.html has the look of a site that is used to feed plaintiffs into lawyers (just a suppostition on my part). It would be nice to cite a more direct source. Bob Herrick 21:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
When my dad was diagnosed in 1987 with mesothelioma, I read the Reports to the Senate Subcommittee on Asbestos Related Diseases. In that I found the first lawsuits were in 1929. I can not now find this report. I agree, if anyone can find a direct source, it would be helpful. Partisan or sites like that are not great sources, although I do know that this fact is correct. Oh, and my dad died of mesothelioma in 1987, 5 months after his diagnosis. He was not a smoker, and worked only 6 weeks cutting asbestos shingles in 1941, before he went overseas in WWII. He was also a conservative geologist, who once said environmentalists would be the death of business. Sadly, it seemed that business was the death of him.
One of the doctors from England editing Wikipedia said something about mesothelioma studies showing problems very early - earlier than the 1920s, but again, I do not have any source info. I no longer have his email, but his comments were very interesting.
I no longer edit Wikipedia, and have noted that there were some people associated with various political groups who made it a bully pulpit, and went out of their way smearing editors with whom they disagreed. I find that unfortunate. One such "article" written by one of those guys was an attack on Baron or Budd, who are/were mesothelioma lawyers. I don't know that firm, or the lawyer, but I do note the vehemence with which those lawyers were used as an example of why all lawyers and the mesothelioma lawsuits were fraudulent. I don't doubt that some unscrupulous lawyers exploited the asbestos litigation. However, the suggestion that all or most cases were fraudulent is equally untrue. There were also reasons why those who had not yet been diagnosed with mesothelioma or asbestos were attempting to protect their rights, given the statute of limitations they had to deal with. The American Bar Association had recommended a remedy to these problems, but I suppose that too was considered biased by those attacking all litigation.
Has anyone considered adding anything about Haliburton's interest with the asbestos cases? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.126.14 ( talk) 21:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the "United States" subsection under "Regulation and government action" section to begin with a line like, "United States has not joined the ranks of the many advanced countries that have banned asbestos". This is the biggest subsection with a lot of clutter with the ASTM stuff, but does not clearly and concisely state the fact that asbestos is NOT banned in US. Of course it says there have been calls for a ban. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.225.22 ( talk) 02:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
(so I guess if you want safe and healthy indoor air quality today, you'd have to move to france?)
"A. July 1989 EPA rule commonly known as the "Asbestos Ban and Phaseout Rule" (40 CFR 763 Subpart I, Sec. 762.160 - 763.179)
NOTE: Much of the original rule was vacated and remanded by the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in 1991. Thus, the original 1989 EPA ban on the U.S. manufacture, importation, processing, or distribution in commerce of many asbestos-containing product categories was set aside and did not remain in effect." (ref, from http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/asbbans2.pdf)
I just learned about this, but this article needs this information in it- and information about how and why the ban was vacated by who in what court in 1991! (can one biased judge with a personal agenda really have the power to change everything?) - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gawdsmak ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
This page seems to be getting rather lengthy and confusing. Perhaps it should be split into (a) a page on the asbestos litigation and (b) a page on governmental regulation and worldwide bans. The former is a law-related page and it seems like the later is an occupational or public health related page? Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.100.199.219 ( talk) 22:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
The section about regulation is quite fair and pays attention on many countries. On the contrary, the litigation section is focused on America. In other countries too we had big trials against companies because of asbestos damage. Often they are the most important trial against a company and took headlines on mass-medias. Lele giannoni ( talk) 19:26, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
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The whole "Online Battle" thing is a myth, has no truth to it at all - mesothelioma and asbestos actually have very average cost per click in online advertising - and was probably put there simply to give a free link and traffic to the supposed reference site, which has no real verifiable information (a simple search using the google tool shows that the conclusions are fake) and is full of pay-per-click advertising ITSELF, which I find hilarious.
Serious NPOV issues still exist. No data is provided to support the validity of such asbestos class action suits, but rather only their legitimacy is questioned.
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Asbestosis - Compensation and Liability Disputes
It has been commented that this item is (was? - already modified) uduly biassed. The topic is important, and I feel would benefit from a wider input, to guarantee an appropriate NPOV. The proposed summary deletion seems rather "unWiki-like". - Please contribute !
Asbestosis_-_Compensation_and_Liability_Disputes Deletion/Keep/Merge Debate page
Proposed new Title': Asbestos-Related Diseases: Industrial Health and Safety Issues
The request for deletion debate resulted in a vote NOT to delete , but rather to undertake a "clean-up" of the item in question, the deletion debate itself is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please contribute on article clean-up Wikityke
Hundreds of thousands have died from asbestos related diseases. I can also tell you what it was like to watch my robust wonderful father die a hideous death. Before you start touting 'exaggerations' of the danger of asbestos, I suggest you read about why 60 countries banned it. MollyBloom 04:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
quercus robur 00:13, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What do you think JFW? I've made a few changes myself, over on this "compensation" page, paraphrasing some quotes and removing some of the more emotional language. I've also included a few references to research in this field (hopefully a "balanced mix"), as suggested by Ed. Should the NPOV and CLEANUP be maintained, or is it ready to have these tags removed? Thanks for any suggestions. Wikityke 11:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Many thanks to Ed, for his excellent "cleanup" work on the article. Wikityke 23:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about your latest edit, Ed (20:27, 27 Jan 2005). Ok, they admit that there's still no universal consenus (frankly I doubt there ever will be!!) but the HSE are generally very conservative from what I've seen (hence their admission of lack of consensus). Maybe we should at least keep something on the fact that the evidence shows ("seems to indicate"?) that any minimum "cut-off" must really be at a very low level. What do you think?
With, or without a partial revert along these lines, I vote to remove the NPOV and CLEANUP.
Wikityke 22:02, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The US Senate is now considering the trust fund bill. I'll try to keep this current. -- Christofurio 01:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
This was what was stated in the article: ..."settlements have also threatened some of the World's largest insurance companies." ( BBC report on Lloyds).
This statement is not only unsubstantiated, but the article it references says nothing about the "world's largest insurance companies" being threatened. This is an article about Lloyd's investors suing Lloyds for fraud, over the pending losses. If Lloyd's is threatened, it is because of its own misrepresentation and fraud, not because of asbestos lawsuits. MollyBloom 04:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The Names sued four defendants: the Corporation of Lloyd's, the Society of Lloyd's, the Council of Lloyd's, (collectively, "Lloyd's") and Lloyd's of London, (the "unincorporated association"). Lloyd's is a market in which more than three hundred Underwriting Agencies compete for underwriting business. Pursuant to the Lloyd's Act of 1871-1982, Lloyd's oversees and regulates the competition for underwriting business in the Lloyd's market. The market does not accept premiums or insure risks. Rather, Underwriting Agencies, or syndicates, compete for the insurance business. Each Underwriting Agency is controlled by a Managing Agent who is responsible for the financial status of its agency. The Managing Agent must attract not only underwriting business from brokers but also the capital with which to insure the risks underwritten.
I suspect the news article did not make the legal differentiation. But the cause of action was undoubtely accurate. jgwlaw 20:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Self-proclaimed 'experts' who proclaimed the dangers from asbestos are 'junk science' are themselves the junk scientists. The term 'junk science' is a political soundbite, not a term about the merits of science. These arbiters of junk science are political pundits. I was astonished to read that one announced in 2001 that lives would have been saved on 9-11 if more asbestos had been used. Of course, that was ludicrous at the time, and is even more so now that we know more about the levels of asbestos inhaled by firemen etc.
There is NO doubt whatsoever that asbestos causes mesothelioma, asbestosis, lung and other types of cancer. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Asbestos is also found in the lungs upon atopsy. There is no 'he said' or 'she said' about this. The science documents and has for 100 years the dangers of asbestos. I can only presume that anyone who thinks there should be 'balance' in a discussion about the dangers of asbestos either does not understand the problem, or they have listented to people who know nothing. I have included citations from the EPA, various internet sites, and toxicology textbooks. There are many more references available, and one can check at any medical library. There is not even a scintilla of medical dispute about the dangers of asbestos. Now, there is discussion about how dangerous one size of fiber is versus another, but NO legitimate doctor or scientist disputes that people die from asbestos exposure. Every government in the industrialized world has acknowledged the dangers.
But you seem to have missed the point about the "junk science" charge. It concerns the forensic use of science, i.e. its use to try to establish that A's death or injury was caused by X, in whole or in part (and if in part, how much). It isn't enough to say: Defendant was doing X, we know that X can cause death, plaintiff died, the death was consistent with causation by X, so let us find the defendant liable. What is missing there is actual causation, and that is exactly where the junk sneaks in. After all, a given plaintiff's decedent could have been around asbestos, and/or various forms of radiation, and could have been a smoker besides. Likewise, I might be pushed out a window, and then while I am falling to the ground, somebody might shoot me through the heart. Real science can determine which I died of ... the bullet or the fall. Phony science says, "both the pusher and the shooter did something bad, so charge them each 100% as if he had died twice." No ... don't. Justice isn't vindictiveness, and science isn't in itself either of those. -- Christofurio 00:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
If you were pushed out of the window, and while falling to the gorund, someone shot you, there would be culpability for both malfeasors- but a different culpability. THe person shoving you out the window would be charged with attempted murder. The shooter would be charged with murder (or involuntary manslaughter depending on the intent). In this scenario, it was not foreseeable that a someone would shoot you after you were pushed. However, if you were pushed off a building to the street below, survived only to be run over by a truck....well the pusher would be liable for murder. Why? It is foreseeable that pushing you off a bulding onto a street would place you in a position to be run over by a truck. Junk science has nothing to do with this at all. But back to the pusher & shooter... Now if you hit the ground, and the shot combined with the fall caused the death, then both the pusher and the shooter would be liable for murder, understandably, because both were a 'cause in fact' - both substantially contributed to your untimely demise. The law is very fair and logical when allocating fault.
Turning to a third scenario....3 people shoot and the victim dies from the wounds. Suppose for sake of argument, that it cannot be ascertained which person shot the fatal bullet. In that case, all 3 would be culpable. All three had the mens rea (intent) and all three committed the 'actus rea' - the criminal act. The causation here would be split, or the burden shifted to the defendant to show his shot did not cause the fatality.
None of this is junk science. None of this is vindictiveness. It is our legal justice system, and it works pretty well. There has to be some policy driven decisions in any legal system, but ours (in the US) is pretty reasonable.
Turning to asbestos....and I will only address mesothelioma. Mesothelioma by itself is a fatal disease. It kills whether a person smoked, or didn't smoke. The fibers can be found in the lungs. My father died of mesothelioma and never smoked, or was around smoking. Had he smoked, it is likely that he might have died sooner, but that is just speculation. Had he smoked, the cause of his death would still have been mesothelioma attributable to asbestos. Radiation does not cause mesothelioma, either. In all cases, mesothelioma would be the cause of death (unless the person died from lung cancer typical of smoking, or emphezema etc. before succombing to mesothelioma). Mesothelioma is not the kind of lung cancer one acquires from smoking. Mesothelioma is a cancer of the mesothelial lining of the lung. The cause of death is very clear and well documented. It is crystal clear, in fact. Asbestos is the only known cause of mesothelioma. Causation here is very clear cut. There is no 'junk science' at all.
jgwlaw 18:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Bob Herrick 23:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
It's true that there may be no way to pinpoint exactly where exposure came from--but saying "we don't know where you were exposed to asbestos" is not the same thing as "therefore something else caused your mesothelioma". Khazeh 20:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Bob Herrick
21:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
--
Bob Herrick (
talk)
21:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh and one more thing. The term 'junk science' is a highly charged, political term that has little meaning except to pundits.
jgwlaw 19:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Obviously it's intended as a derogatory term. Nobody calls their own views junk science, just as no government calls itself a tyranny. But that doesn't make the charge itself meaningless. It might be right or wrong in a particular instance, but it has meaning. As a simple matter of tort law, the shooter in the case I referenced would be liable for my death, in a wrongful death action. Not the one who pushed me off the roof, since that didn't in this hypothesis cause my death. (Criminal charges are another matter.) The charge of "junk science" is generally made in the tort context and I believe I have shown that it does have a meaning there, whether one is a pundit or not. A "junk" scientist is anybody who would take the stand to bolster the tort case against the pusher rather than the shooter. --
Christofurio
15:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
ONe final comment. If you are trying to make some analogy to asbestos cases, it doesn't fit. Same tort laws would apply. I suspect you are thinking of smoking. THat is actually a logically different issue. If someone smokes and it can be proven that smoking contributed to the injury, as well as asbestos, it does not clear the defendant. It may reduce the award, but it wouldn't clear him. In most jurisdictions, in a wrongful death suit, it is not necessary that the defendant's action be the sole cause of death. That is not 'junk science'. And with mesothelioma, of course, it is irrelevant, because mesothelioma is fatal with or without smoking. jgwlaw 07:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
This is not a forum for bashing lawyers. It is not a political forum. To make this a rant on tort reform, or an article by political pundits on alleged fraud is wrong. Instead, it should be a discussion of the legal issues related to asbestos. This includes regulation, civil litigation (existing and proposed) and criminal prosecution. Corporate losses from asbestos are not only attributable to civil litigation,. Corporations are being indicted on criminal charges, as well. There also is a section on Environmental law & criminal prosecution. The environmental issues surrounding asbestos removal are huge. I said 'dozens' of cases have been prosecuted...it's probably many more than that. This is a health issue, as evidenced by the WR Grace prosecution. Please people, lets stop with the lawyer bashing. I couldn't believe the article as it was when I first saw it. That's not informative; it's a rant. Let's keep it clean, factual and informative. MollyBloom 02:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference list, and am starting the process of adding proper citations for the references. IT will take some time, and I welcome any help available. I am still a little inexperienced at the Wiki formatting but am getting the hang of it. Still, help would be nice! ;-) jgwlaw 18:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
This could be an interesting paragraph - Could the author clarify, please? What were the payouts - lawsuits over key words, or payments, or what? To whom by whom, and for what? A citation that might explain would be helpful. Thank you! Jance 21:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
That was my edit, its actually because I help manage the pay per click accounts for a major asbestos lawyer. I will try to add some more information to the article when I can Boston2austin 21:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
A front page story in yesterday's Wall Street Journal suggests there is a developing scandal over insider trading in the asbestos context. Apparently, somebody in Congress or working for a member of Congress told investors or the agents of investors that there would be some movement soon in the tort claims relief bill re: asbestos, and the investors loaded up on the instruments of the corporations that would benefit. Anybody want to tackle this? -- Christofurio 16:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag; legitimate criticism of asbestos litigation is entirely absent from the article. See also Baron & Budd Script Memo controversy.
I attach here a partial list of links to problems with asbestos litigation for future editors to address. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13] -- TedFrank 17:05, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I randomly choose a source listed above, and added a criticism section. NPOV tags removed. - Roy Boy 03:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed many asbestos/mesothelioma related pages have been spammed with links to dalekozor.com. Just an FYI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boston2austin ( talk • contribs) 22:40, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a primary source for this assertion? I have found evidence of workers' compensation claims starting in 1927, and there may be some tort action at about the same time (particularly if employer's liability before the workers' comp law began to cover occupational disease) but the cited source http://www.1-stop-mesothelioma-asbestos.com/html/history.html has the look of a site that is used to feed plaintiffs into lawyers (just a suppostition on my part). It would be nice to cite a more direct source. Bob Herrick 21:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
When my dad was diagnosed in 1987 with mesothelioma, I read the Reports to the Senate Subcommittee on Asbestos Related Diseases. In that I found the first lawsuits were in 1929. I can not now find this report. I agree, if anyone can find a direct source, it would be helpful. Partisan or sites like that are not great sources, although I do know that this fact is correct. Oh, and my dad died of mesothelioma in 1987, 5 months after his diagnosis. He was not a smoker, and worked only 6 weeks cutting asbestos shingles in 1941, before he went overseas in WWII. He was also a conservative geologist, who once said environmentalists would be the death of business. Sadly, it seemed that business was the death of him.
One of the doctors from England editing Wikipedia said something about mesothelioma studies showing problems very early - earlier than the 1920s, but again, I do not have any source info. I no longer have his email, but his comments were very interesting.
I no longer edit Wikipedia, and have noted that there were some people associated with various political groups who made it a bully pulpit, and went out of their way smearing editors with whom they disagreed. I find that unfortunate. One such "article" written by one of those guys was an attack on Baron or Budd, who are/were mesothelioma lawyers. I don't know that firm, or the lawyer, but I do note the vehemence with which those lawyers were used as an example of why all lawyers and the mesothelioma lawsuits were fraudulent. I don't doubt that some unscrupulous lawyers exploited the asbestos litigation. However, the suggestion that all or most cases were fraudulent is equally untrue. There were also reasons why those who had not yet been diagnosed with mesothelioma or asbestos were attempting to protect their rights, given the statute of limitations they had to deal with. The American Bar Association had recommended a remedy to these problems, but I suppose that too was considered biased by those attacking all litigation.
Has anyone considered adding anything about Haliburton's interest with the asbestos cases? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.35.126.14 ( talk) 21:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see the "United States" subsection under "Regulation and government action" section to begin with a line like, "United States has not joined the ranks of the many advanced countries that have banned asbestos". This is the biggest subsection with a lot of clutter with the ASTM stuff, but does not clearly and concisely state the fact that asbestos is NOT banned in US. Of course it says there have been calls for a ban. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.225.22 ( talk) 02:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
(so I guess if you want safe and healthy indoor air quality today, you'd have to move to france?)
"A. July 1989 EPA rule commonly known as the "Asbestos Ban and Phaseout Rule" (40 CFR 763 Subpart I, Sec. 762.160 - 763.179)
NOTE: Much of the original rule was vacated and remanded by the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in 1991. Thus, the original 1989 EPA ban on the U.S. manufacture, importation, processing, or distribution in commerce of many asbestos-containing product categories was set aside and did not remain in effect." (ref, from http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/asbbans2.pdf)
I just learned about this, but this article needs this information in it- and information about how and why the ban was vacated by who in what court in 1991! (can one biased judge with a personal agenda really have the power to change everything?) - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gawdsmak ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
This page seems to be getting rather lengthy and confusing. Perhaps it should be split into (a) a page on the asbestos litigation and (b) a page on governmental regulation and worldwide bans. The former is a law-related page and it seems like the later is an occupational or public health related page? Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.100.199.219 ( talk) 22:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
The section about regulation is quite fair and pays attention on many countries. On the contrary, the litigation section is focused on America. In other countries too we had big trials against companies because of asbestos damage. Often they are the most important trial against a company and took headlines on mass-medias. Lele giannoni ( talk) 19:26, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
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Greetings, thank you for this entry. Very informative. The introductory paragraph of this article is U.S based and focuses on asbestos & law in the US however, the article is a general title and includes international content. This introduction seems inappropriate and better suited for the Abestos and the law (United States) page rather than this page. Please clarify and correct. Thobeka-77 ( talk) 18:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
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