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I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for good article status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of June 17, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status. — Argos' Dad 02:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd never have expected I'd take part in revert wars about adding or removing "Former Yugoslav..." from references to the Republic of Macedonia, but now that we have WP:MOSMAC I really thought this was sorted out. From the discussion between Nikos and Pmanderson on that talk page I took it that it was clearly understood during the negotiations that the language of the proposed guideline was not supposed to mean that every article dealing with Greece should automatically use "Former Yugoslav...", and that any such demand would never achieve consensus. If the guideline is now nevertheless interpreted in this way, then I throw up my hands in despair. In that case, the guideline is dead, dead, dead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh well. Can we please develop a habit of not reverting each other's substantial edits before we've had a discussion about the merits of the case first? The edits Albanau reverted to ( [1]) were hardly wrong, they were just redundant. If you read the article closely, almost everything in added in that edit was already in the article anyway, and sourced too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The first reference citation associated with the first sentence in the history section of the article needs elaboration. Full citations are in order. Also, direct quotes from those sources would be helpful in providing a form of verifiability for readers. This is a suggestion that could help increase the article's chances of reaching FA status. Just a suggestion that I think needs to be taken into consideration. Deucalionite 18:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I've had enough of this. This guy has pestered everybody with his ungrammatical, repetitive, off-topic, incoherent rants for the better part of a year. He's evidently not prepared to learn.
I propose to treat him as banned for a year. I'm now going to block his main IPs for a long while. Any ban evasion will mean resetting of the ban for another year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
In case that you unblock me I will show improvement ,i will try not to make any claim without showing references first(I often did not although), and my sign that I will change is my new username. My motivation have been clear to anyone, I feel sorry that are not many Albanian users and academics in the field in wikipedia , myself I am engaged in totally different profession but for me the history of our nation is important. What I fight for is the truth and I hate deformities. I feel that I do not deserve this so long ban, is just some thoughts that I wrote ….Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodona eprioti ( talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
You should not put so much “barbed wire” to Albanians if you want collaborative, the references are there depends what you pick up, banned for not any apparent reasons is not the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.62 ( talk) 08:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll revert this back, it is an important part of state-of-the-art sociological analysis of Arvanite communities. And yes, I read those references. (Couldn't get hold of Tsitsipis 1981 itself, to tell you the truth, but several later ones of his articles where he quotes and expands on his own previous analyses, as well as the Botsi study, Trudgill/Tzaveras and others.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Markos Botsaris was no Arvanite, was he? He was a Souliot.-- NetProfit 20:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"Captain Bogia and Captain Giavella, two of the most considerable of the chiefs of the Greek inhabitants of the mountain of Sulli", I totally agree with Fut.Purf .The statement has a strong bias and indicate ,whether who was consider Greek and who not at that time. The inhabitant of Suli were Christian orthodox Arvanites and of course Greek , because Arvanites are Greek and are substantial part of the Greek nation, but they have they own identity different from what makes to day Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 18:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
"By this is meant the self-censorship * and self-devaluation* by the speakers of the minority language, who come to internalise the negative connotations ascribed to their group"
sorry, but this is a POV general rule apllied to Greece rather than a sourced example within Greece, and the concrete examples in tstisipis are of lower visibility and inter-familial culture. Again, not only is it POV to assert that this constitues self-attack, but also to come back to , the popular understanding that most people would have of self-deprecation when they see it on a page such as this would be self-insult rather than self-denial, regardless of the academic use.
Arvanitas2007 11:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
there are several historical figures within many areas of greek life who have been publicly both arvanite and very identified with greece, which leads to me think this is a potentially misleading formulation. I will re-search for the only quoted web source ; overall this is a reasonable object I think.
Arvanitas2007 11:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Note to user FPS. Out of curiosity, does Tsitsipis give a Greek word for self-deprececation? Also, if you maintain that 'acedemic literature' says it, could you give further examples other than just Tsitsipis? Otherwise it may be useful to re-edit your text. Politis 11:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
there is a still remains a visible problem with having this as the only formulation in the article though, which is that a succession of widely known greeks have also been visibly arvanite and are part of the country's legends. If you are going to retain what I think is that very POV formulation, then I can't why see such a qualification cannot also be added.
Arvanitas2007 11:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
'Today's Arvanitika speakers constitute a group that is completely assimilated culturally, and have a Greek national identification' this quotation by Botsi which happen to be Arvanites and scholar in your opinion is not true because Arvanites are the Greek nation itself, and from the other hand you should not ignore a greek Helsinki human right report of 2001. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 20:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
You could not write as I was a ignorant or something because you do not know nothing about me , in contrary of you it not happen that I write things that my self do not believe on them even written from a person with PhD ?! , I mean a guy which has done extensive study in her community to come in the conclusion that they not exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
“Arvanites have become largely assimilated” means although it is not said that they mostly do not exist any more as identity.Cultural assimilation, sorry but by which culture?! I know english enough for a non – native —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
‘ ‘ Cultural assimilation (often called merely assimilation) is an intense process of consistent integration whereby members of an ethno-cultural group, typically immigrants, or other minority groups, are "absorbed" into an established, generally larger community. This presumes a loss of many characteristics which make the newcomers different. A region or society where assimilation is occurring is sometimes referred to as a melting pot. Assimilation can also be the process through which people lose originally differentiating traits, such as dress, speech particularities or mannerisms, when they come into contact with another society or culture. Often used to describe immigrant adaptation to new places or residence.’ ‘ my thinking is that this term is not suitable for Arvanites. Of course I will read more books. I like this advice, anybody needs, no one knows enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Some interested points in this report! [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 09:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Theodoros Kolokotronis in any book mention Arvanites is mention , even is family is well known originally from Epirus . The Arvanitic Legue of Greece mention the dominand role of Arvanites and Arvanitic language in the formation of Greek nation, the articul does not share this view. Moreover efforts to study Arvanitika in academic level is from the main pourpose of Arvanitic legue of Greece. Such a role is being ignore with purpose, this is what I think. PIRRO BURRI 16:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
In present time other non- Greek and non- hellenic population group in Greece are called Hellenic like Vlleh, Slavs ,Jewish and other aziatic , they have priority in the contrary to the original population and their relatives., Why is that ? -- PIRRO BURRI 16:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Arvanites are what remains from once Hellenic population and tribes that , identification as “self-hating” comes that partly because of ignorance of this simple fact they have mostly the right to be call helenic in to day Greece and this is “ meagali alithia” and because they lost their original language ( value of which the uneducated part was unable to appreciate) and the other reason of their hate for their Albanian cousins comes because they ( politically influenced) identify them with Turkish ( Muslim) and because … other simple fact because Albanian people usually hate and love each other , was like that since Homeric pelasgic time until to day -- PIRRO BURRI 19:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you comment on waht this Arvanites writes about the official ideology treating all other inhabitants of Greece besides Arvanites as Helen!! -- PIRRO BURRI 14:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC) It is true that the Arvanites of Andros - I belong to them, from my father's side - have been ashamed for a long time of their roots and their language. This feeling, which led to the abandonment of their mother tongue, the Arvanitika or Arb'risht, has many reasons. One important reason is the fact that the inhabitants of the Greek-speaking capital of Andros, Hora, and of some nearby prosperous villages used to look down to the Arvanites. Another one, which pertains to all the Arvanites of Greece, was the dominance for many decades of the official national ideology based on the myth that all the inhabitants of modern Greece were direct descendants of "our glorious ancient ancestors". It is obvious that the Arvanites, a non-Greek speaking population - with a Greek national consciousness though - could not fit in such an ideology unless they abandoned their "particularities" - that means their language. The latter is actually a non-written dialect of the mediaeval South-Albanian (Tosk). Although I am 34, I have learned Arvanitika with a lot of effort and I consider it as a part of our cultural heritage, listed by Unesco among the "seriously endangered languages". If you wish to find more information about the Arvanites of Andros and of other regions of Greece, you can visit the site http: //go.to/arvanites, Yiannis S Vitaliotis Kallithea
"Arvanites are the majority of population of my country(Greece)" King George said...-- PIRRO BURRI ( talk) 11:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
"Kombet nuk jane insekte, qe mund te heqin dore dhe te braktisin aq kollaj kombesine, gjuhen zakonet dhe traditat e tyre si gjarperinjte qe nderrojne lekuren, te mohojne eterit, memedheun dhe fisnikerine e tij, traditat e trimerise se vet, eshte anakronizem dhe e padegjuar, qe ne historine e kombeve te gjejme nje popull aq haram dhe indiferent ndaj vetvetes"
Αν πιστεύετε ότι οι έλληνες αρβανίτες δεν είναι έλληνες τότε γιατι δεν μας φέρνετε μια ανάλυση του DNA σας για να μας αποδείξετε ότι εσείς είστε πράγματι έλληνας. Δεν θα σας στο συμβούλευα προσωπικά να το κάνετε γιατι το αποτέλεσμα της αναλύσεως θα είναι ιδιαιτέρως δυσάρεστο ως πρός την προσέγγισή σας περί ελληνικότητος.-- Arvanitia ( talk) 11:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
There are no reliable figures about the number of Arvanites in Greece today and their exact number is unknown (no official data exist for ethnicity in Greece) [3]. -- Shqiponja Pellasge ( talk) 10:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
As fare as i can see from all the data available taking in consideration the population exchange and other influx of migrations in Greece , Arvanites are still majority in to day Greece but not linguistically. From all the data available taking in consideration the population exchange and other influx of migrations in Greece , Arvanites are still majority in to day Greece but not linguistically. -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Those that later became Arvanite or Albanian speakers were not actually albanians or arvanites but for the most part victims of islamization and later communist brainwashing. Megistias ( talk) 12:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, I think you're delusional. Define 'Greek' ? If you say that it any Orthodox is Greek, than yeah, but otherwise you have no clue. Long before Turks arrived 45% of 'Greeks' were Albanian:
"The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece." http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
These are scholars not you dreaming of Megali. Any Greek became so thanks to your Church helenizing them. See the Stradioti http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html and notice how they became more "Greek" as years went by. But let's agree to disagree, you're probably my cousin, unless you have Slav blood.
We can contest his discussion mostly the part that the Greeks came from Slavs and his map of Albanian- Arvanite or Epirotic extension, where presently the real Greek lives.
[4]--
Aspetus (
talk)
18:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Re. Megistias' edits [5] and my partial revert [6] regarding Kollias: I quite agree the scholarly value of his work is very limited. However, we do need the reference in order to deal with the "Pelasgian" link. It's already duly placed only in a footnote and clearly marked as non-mainstream, thus satisfying WP:UNDUE. Also, claiming openly that he was a "pseudo-historian" is hardly NPOV, especially as we have no reliable third-party coverage of him, be it positive or negative. In fact, I just got his article deleted for lack of notability just a few weeks ago.
Ironically, when we had the big edit-wars about this article, it used to be pro-Greek editors quoting him in order to prove the Greekness of the Arvanites... I think that's basically why he got in in the first place. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Kola is famous among the Greeks and Albanians but specially among Arvanites! Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 20:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a very balanced view where all the aspects are mentions linguistic , history , ethnography , traditions etc very informative and well sourced! He is famous because he was: The president of Arvanitic Legue of Greece for so long and this organization is not ordinary as fare as I know . Second he is best seller in Greece and in Albania , third you have to know how much is a persons known or famous among his patriots… as I know he is !Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 21:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Arvanites who considers themselves as such are Albanians. Arvanites are a Albanian population group in Greece. -- Albanau ( talk) 14:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
They are not endangered indeed.And it is wrong to consider them Albanian,as an extremely limited number among them accepts an albanian conection.We are what we choose to be,and since Arvanites consider themselves Greek,than Greek is what they are.It saddens me in a way,but it is their choice and we(Albanians)should do nothing but respect it.However, I don't think we can exlude the fact that the Greek national conscience they have obtained was slowly achieved through the assimilation proccess of the dictatorships they went through(Metaxas,military junta).After all, the Arberesh of Italy who migrated there more or less when the Arvanites migrated to Greece still consider Albanians as their relatives,cousins if you will,and do not resent being called as such. Amenifus ( talk) 10:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I comment on one thing,you answer to another.Don't alert yourself,I'm not trying to albanise them(-are you actually reading my comments?),I'm simply pointing out the paradox between them and the Arberesh of Italy.They migrated to Greece either by invitation of the Byzantine Empire,or later on after the Ottoman invasion.They were not consiously Greek initially,they identified themselves as Orthodox rather than a separate nation.Obviously they differentiated from the rest of the Albanian population after the conversion to Islam,but can you really deny the helenising attempts?I am an Albanian Orthodox and I don't differentiate myself from my muslim countrymen,the Arberesh are Catholic and yet they don't "resent being called Albanian".We passed through our religious diversities during the late 19th century,a bit before the Arvanites manifesto happened,showing that they didn't resent us that much.In modern times however they do "dislike" being called Albanian.Coincidentally enough the two forementioned dictatorships took place in the 20th century,and Arvanites were forced..."ahem"...convinced to adopt "katharevousa",formal Greek,as their one and only language.In my opinion this wasn't a very benevolent act on behalf of the Greek government,considering the sacrifices of the Arvanites during the Greek independence struggle of 1821 and the Greco-Italian war.Now,as for Albania's claim on Greek territories that is simply an answer to Greek claims on Albanian territories(law of action-reaction).As for our "alliance" with Turkey I don't see how else we could face the crazed Iquisition-like Orthodox anti-albanian alliance in the Balkans.If the Greek media choose to identify us with Turkey,fine by me,but keep in mind that we don't have the same attachment to religion as our neighbors.Albanian muslims were the only muslims to rise against the Ottoman empire under no religious rallying cry,and don't forget that Albania's national hero does anything but bring us close with Turkey.So please lets not turn this article into yet another Greek-Albanian clash. Amenifus ( talk) 12:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it was wrong on my behalf to suggest that "language enforcement".My sincere apologies,please don't feel offended as it wasn't my intention.However,they were indeed bilingual and not much effort was made to preserve their "other" language,correct?How does one come to hating his own past and origins?Bottom line,I don't think that Arvanites should be used to fuel up more nationalism rather than soften the relationship between the two countries.After all,I can't recall any other neighboring countries that share such a phenomenon. Amenifus ( talk) 09:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
But you see, "uniformity" is not necessarily good either.How would you feel if the Greeks of Australia,USA,or even Constantinople slowly forgot their heritage,language and everything that differs them from others(which is something already in process)?And even completely identify themselves with their new culture,and in an even more extreme case come into contradiction with their original heritage and tradition?Diversity is not necessarily a negative concept but rather something that should be preserved when not harming others.Having a "pure" nation is not quite possible,especially in the Balkans,and it's not a notion to be encouraged either. Amenifus ( talk) 10:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to tradition and culture,not national identity,and whether the Arvanites wish to preserve it or not is their choice alone.They will still identify themselves as national Greeks, bilingual or not.And if memory serves, the first thing the Greek primeminister did during his recent formal visit in Australia was attending and supervising the greek schools functioning there. Amenifus ( talk) 10:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't suggesting such a thing(separate schools),but only that Arvanitika is not completely forgotten.This particular section of the discussion needs the contribution of someone who identifies himself as Arvanite,I cannot continue to speculate what would be appropriate to do in preserving Arvanitic culture.As I understand there already is an association dealing with such matters in Greece,thus I'm only offering my opinion and suggestions,nothing more,nothing less. Amenifus ( talk) 11:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
You make it sound as though my ultimate goal is for Albanian to thrive in Greece as a language.Albanian in general is not our topic here,Arvanitika is.Immigrants are usually groups that return to their homeland sooner or later and I suggest that you don't confuse them with other communities such as Arvanites.Arvanites are considered Greek citizens with a Greek nationality,unlike immigrants which retain their nationality regardless of citizenship. Amenifus ( talk) 09:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Foreign nationals would be concerned about a group of Greek nationals when there's a particular connection with the specific group.Arvanites and Albanians have an undeniable conection, historically and genetically speaking.This fact does not raise any doubts and the nationality they consider themselves part of is irrelevant.I would be very curious to see your comments if Greece was facing a similar case. Amenifus ( talk) 11:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not an expert in these issues but this article seems to lack contributions and comments from Arvanites themselves. In this discussion page I see Albanians and Greeks arguing over Arvanitika and the identity of Arvanites. The only member of the Arvanites group who has made a comment so far and whom I would like to thank for his contribution is NikoSilver. I think more Arvanites should help in editing this article. Statements such as "Arvanites in Greece have come to dissociate themselves much more strongly from the Albanians, stressing instead their national self-identification as Greeks" need to be explained. What would cause the Arvanites to dissociate themselves from the Albanians? I think NikoSilver gave us a glimpse of what may have caused the Arvanites to deny their Albanian roots. These kinds of explanations should be included in a discussion theme where Arvanites can tells us about their experiences and their thoughts. ( Toni78 ( talk) 21:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC))
Interestingly, this [7] sociolinguistic study of Arvanite communities mentions "the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus" and describes how the researcher saw him speak Arvanitika. That is our guy, isn't he? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The authors is trying to raise some parallels of Tsakonian (Doric) ( so different from to day Greek as looks as different language) and Arvanitika a form of Albanian ,calling them both language of Greece<refFor example, Tsakonian, the variety of Greek spoken mainly in the eastern Peloponnesos is so different from the rest of Greek, or at least it was, that is might well be called a separate language rather than a dialect of Greek. As recorded in the early 20th century, for instance by Hubert Pernot, it was strikingly different. In more recent years, most Tsakonian speakers are now fluent users of Standard Greek and we find that Standard Greek features are entering Tsakonian. For instance, the negative particle was once the highly archaic form < o >, from ancient Greek , but increasingly in the 20th century it has given way to Standard Modern Greek . In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation.[ http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999comp.pdf]</ref. In fact it is well known that Arvanites call themselves as Doric<refΚωνσταντίνος Μπίρης. Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού. Αθήνα. 1981"</ref/ref>Biris, Kostas (1960): Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του νεότερου Ελληνισμού: H ιστορία των Ελλήνων Αρβανιτών</ref-- Dodona ( talk) 18:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
“If there's anything that relates them( with Dorians ) , it's certainly not their language” if it is not the language.. what it is then the ethnicity?, or their similarity with Dorians ?! -- Dodona ( talk) 18:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Contradict what Biris and others say… with sources and prove that Arvanites are not Dorians, you called the arvanitik ethnic music of epirus as "dimotiko" this is the real Helenic music.you give me sources to prove your thesis-- Dodona ( talk) 19:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Dodona, it seems you haven't taken in a word of what I was telling you the other day. I'm serious. This just has to stop. I'm asking you for a last time: Will you please stop pushing your Arvanitic/Epirotic/Pelasgic pseudolinguistic idee fixe? Because if you do, you have a chance of staying here on wiki peacefully, writing perhaps some nice articles in other areas. But if I hear you talking about these topics one more time, I will ask for you to be banned again. And that will then be final. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Just so everyone knows, I implemented some minor tweaks to the article in order to help improve its overall quality. Please do not assume that I have made significant changes to the article under the guise of "minor edits" (yes, some users apparently make this kind of assumption on Wikipedia). After having read the endless pages of "archived insanity", I really have no intention of getting involved in "debates" over the history and identity of the Arvanites. So, please refrain from dragging me into any pointless arguments since I ultimately don't care who the Arvanites were or where they came from. All I care about is improving articles. I may come back later to assess the structural integrity of the article's content. Hopefully, things will calm down by March 26. Take it easy folks. Elysonius ( talk) 22:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my ability, I have assessed the "structural integrity" of the article's content and found some problems that should be addressed:
Please review and question the aforementioned sources as logically as possible. Granted, they do not provide detailed accounts on the historical origins of the Arvanites. However, these sources regard the Arvanites as something other than "Albanian settlers".
On a sidenote, please refrain from utilizing typical "dead horse" rhetorical tactics in order to avoid expanding and enhancing the quality of this article. Moreover, please refrain from engaging in useless edit-wars over the identity and origins of the Arvanites. I will not be held responsible for any questionable statements made in response to any aspect of this assessment.
As a reminder, I do not care who or what the Arvanites are or where they came from. I cannot stress this enough since I don't care if the Arvanites are ultimately "Greeks", "Albanians", "Albanian-speaking Greeks", "Greek-speaking Albanians", "Romanians", "Bulgarians", or whatever other Balkan ethnicity comes to mind. Therefore, please spare me any misinterpretations of this assessment as "Greek POV pushing". I have neither the patience nor the time to waste on frivolous assumptions. Moreover, do not bother harassing me on my discussion page regarding the issue of the Arvanites' identity/origins just because "I brought it up" as a topic in my assessment.
Carefully read over this assessment and take whatever measures are necessary towards improving this article. If no measures are taken, then I may have to consult other users who may be interested in helping this article undergo further improvement. I would love to be "bold" myself in seriously editing this article, but I have no intention of inadvertently starting edit-wars.
Also, keep in mind that my purpose here is not to waste time "beating dead horses". I already read the discussion page archives and nearly lost my mind doing so. Therefore, please do not assume that I am ignorant of the controversial nature of this article, as well as the various "colorful perspectives" that have constantly prevented this article from moving forward.
Good-bye and good luck. Elysonius ( talk) 20:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC) I want to comment in the followings:
“Greek ethnies (like Arvanites, Vlachs, Slavophones etc.) present "permanent cultural attributes" such as memory, value, myths and symbolisms. Greek ethnies present a common cultural origin descending from ancient Greece and Byzantium.”
This source indirectly quotes that there are different Greek ethnies which present a common cultural origin descending from ANCIENT Greece ,from the Greek ethnies mention I assume that we are talking about Arvanites
‘’Southern Albanians looked more like Greeks than Albanians from the north, whose language they shared - and when the Greeks did achieve independence they adopted as their national dress the outfit Byron had admired as the epitome of Albanian elegance. (pp. 294-295)’’
Does it means here that the Greeks look like as Albanian from the south since they adopted their customs. While some of the Greek of Arvanites placement (internal population movment ) is well know that originate from the north Albania.Else is not only the language shared but also the ethnicity -- Andrea stefani ( talk) 12:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, it is very odd that no one has responded to my assessment despite this article being very controversial. Nevertheless, I decided to be "bold" and tried to implement whatever solutions I could muster toward solving some of the problems I listed in my assessment. If, by any chance, my edits attract another "Wiki World War", then please remove them. Thank you. Elysonius ( talk) 01:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Elysonius, thank you for your work on the sources. However, I'm afraid I can't easily accept the addition of the sentence to the beginning of the history section: "However, their origins have also been associated with southern Albanian-speaking groups possessing a Greek ethnic identity" This sentence implies an opposition to the preceding ("originated from Albanian settlers […]") which simply is nowhere to be seen in the sources. There is no source, none that you cited and none I've ever seen anywhere else, that contradicts the statement that the late medieval Albanian settlers from the north, at the time of their settlement, were precisely that: Albanians of the same ethnic stock and cultural identity as their fellow countrymen they left behind, later to become the present-day Albanian nation.
In fact, none of the five sources you cite seems to even be addressing the issue that this passage is about, that of the origins, i.e. who or what were those settlers when they came. In detail:
In short, I have no doubt that we can use some of these sources somewhere, just not at that point and not to support that particular statement.
By the way, Elysonius, do you happen to be a sock of our old friend Deucalionite? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Why use an obscure piece of technical vocabulary, which no reader is familiar with, outside the academic context to which it belongs, when it adds no extra information or higher degree of precision over the common and absolutely adequate term "dialect" here?
As for "Albanian settlers", in a perfect world I might agree with you that stating their ethnicity explicitly at that point might not be necessary. But the constant stream of POV-pushing single purpose accounts trying to remove it makes it quite clear that in fact it is necessary: there is no shortage of people who will maintain some confused ideological concoctions in their minds according to which they might in some miraculous way not have been Albanians. So we need to clarify it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no reason to assume that all Arvanites originate from Southern Albania, there has been quite a bit of evidence that suggests that many are Geg Albanians. Such proof can be seen in the surnames, for example Gkekas (Gega), Lekas(Leka), and Kriezis(Kryezi) are both Arvanite and northern Albanian surnames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takeoffyourcool ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph it was recently added that Arvanites are a group of Albanian origin. The stable older version was that Arvanites are a group that speaks Arvanitika and I think that it was much better. They should be presented like a distinct cultural group avoiding conclusions that are under discussion (I don't think that anyone here has made any genetic research or has any in mind). Additionally modern Arvanites - whatever their origin was - are descendants of the first Arvanites who arrived to Greece centuries ago and the native populations, so any talk about their (modern Arvanites) origin nowadays seems anything else but neutral. - Sthenel ( talk) 22:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The first Arvanites were of Albanian origin. Modern Arvanites, some of them may have one Arvanite ancestor (a parent, a grand-parent etc), cannot be called "of Albanian origin". It doesn't make sense at all and seems really black-and-white. - Sthenel ( talk) 09:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You have misapprehended your status as administrator and this is what my reliable sources say. Unfortunately anyone who tries to give an opinion in the articles that you "patronize" has to face up your offensive and pejorative behaviour. Great work! - Sthenel ( talk) 09:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Btw, for Dodona and his reverted comment, I'm not an Arvanite because I care about this article. And I would be very proud if I was. Comment on: "Every ethnic group in the world is factually mixed. So what? That individuals in that group may have mixed ancestries is uncontroversial. But the group as a whole owes its existence to its Albanian origins. As a group, the Arvanites are descended from medieval Albanians in the same sense that Greeks are descended from ancient Greeks, Bretons from ancient British, Germans from ancient Germanic tribes, Vlachs from Latinized ancient Balkanians and so on so forth." Talking for the origin of a nation and a smaller ethnic group which lives for centuries within a nation and intermingled with it are not the same. This group is going to share the same features (genetically and culturally) with the nation that embraces it, after a long period of coexistence. That's what genetics say. - Sthenel ( talk) 09:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Sthenel btw you once said that you have one of your grandfather Arvanites.i have heard that there is not any Greek without any Arvanit ancestry background. The question is that how we will call Arvanites autochthones that lived in Greece before 11th century? If other Arvanites that came later intermix with the same genetic make up population then there is not I significant change after all. Genetic can change but certain characteristics remain for instance genetic research it is been used to find the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel through mtDNA haplotype testing Genealogical DNA test , as well the anthropology can defined certain similar characteristics that you could find between Arvanites and Albanian population, tradition and ethnography also although certain valued were abandoned there are very much similarities. If you pretend this genetic and anthropologic change then the Greek republic should not be call Hellenic after all Albanian fellow —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.65.82 ( talk) 18:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.
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This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, since the issues I raised were not addressed, I have regrettably delisted the article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. If the issues are fixed, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN. With a little work, it should have no problems getting back up to GA status. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 05:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
The article on Laskarina Bouboulina mentions absolutely nothing on her being an Arvanite, and the Nikos Engonopoulos article has only a category. So are they Arvanites or not? Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 11:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Since there is no reliable source for Bouboulina, should we remove her from the infobox? - Sthenel ( talk) 18:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
This source shows a lot how the famous Arvanites were and are treated in Greece: "Bouboulina, who had strongly opposed the imprisonment of Kolokotronis, was considered by the then government to be dangerous to the state, and so arrested (twice) with orders for her imprisonment. A written protest by her towards the government still exists in the General Archives of Greece. Finally Bouboulina was expelled back to Spetses where she stayed for the remaining months until her death. http://www.bouboulinamuseum-spetses.gr/English/Museum_Bouboulina.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 16:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The whole article says that Arbereshe and Albanians are related to Arvanites, why shouldn`t it be in the infobox? This is just a Greek POV. balkanian ( talk) 18:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Could you please take in consideration this famous Arvanites ,as Arvanites of Hellada consider : http://www.arvasynel.gr/dioikisi.html. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 17:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is he considered an Arvanite? His article actually lacks any info on that. Beware, Arvanite doesn't mean Albanian of Greece, and Souliote does not mean Arvanite.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 17:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I am really confused on this page. I know that Arvanites has two meanings in Greece, the first is about the dialectological group of Arbëreshë, i.e. the ones who speak Arvanitika dialect, and have their own distinct culture, mainly in Southern Greece, and the second is a generalization of all Albanian-speaking groups of Greece. I propose that we keep in here only the sense of the subgroup, i.e. the dialectological, regional group, and not the elements of other subgroups, who live in Greece. What do you think? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The New Testament in Arvanitika: [10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.2.112 ( talk) 17:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Karl Reinhold was the first man to publish something in the field of folklore. His book in *.pdf, can be downloaded here: [11] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.2.112 ( talk) 19:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why K. Reinhold's book link, one of the first books to be ever published in Arvanitika with a Latin preface and explanations in Greek, should not be visible on the links' section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich ( talk • contribs) 15:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
-"To 1855 o Θεόδωρος Ράινχολντ εκδίδει βιβλίο για τη γλώσσα του Στόλου. ήταν και αυτός ένας Βαυαρός που ήρθε και υπηρέτησε στο στόλο για 12 χρόνια, ήταν Αρχίατρος του Ελληνικού Στόλου και έχει σαν υπότιτλο του έργου του "Η γλώσσα του Στόλου". Την εποχή αυτή η γλώσσα που ομιλούνταν στο ηρωικό ναυτικό μας, που είχε μία συνέχεια με το ναυτικό του 1821, ήταν η αρβανίτικη γλώσσα και συνήθως αναφέρεται στις ναυτοπεριοχές που πλαισίωναν το στόλο της εποχής αυτής, τις Σπέτσες, την Ύδρα, τα Μέθανα και τον Πόρο. Στο έργο υπάρχει καταγραφή πολλών λέξεων, ένα λεξικό, ορισμένα τραγούδια και παροιμίες και διάφορα γλωσσικά στοιχεία. Τα ονομάζει πελασγικά γιατί και αυτός πίστευε ότι η αρβανίτικη είναι επιβίωση της πελασγικής γλώσσας. Το 1907, βλέπω εδώ, στα επίσημα αρχεία του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, στις Σπέτσες δεν αναφέρεται ούτε ένας να μιλάει αρβανίτικα!"
Αριστείδης Κόλλιας, από το συνέδριο του ΚΕΜΟ "Γλωσσική ετερότητα στην Ελλάδα". Guildenrich ( talk) 09:45, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
On Google books, I stumbled upon this historical source:
("The History of Greece: from its Conquest by the Crusaders to its Conquest by the Turks; and of the Empire of Trebizond, 1204 - 1461; by George Finlay. 1851" p. 39.) Guildenrich 00:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Dear macrakis, the above statement George Finlay made in the XIX.th century, can be refined even further in the light of other works, and I quote:
People who style themselves "The Albanian Brothers" or in Greek "οι Αλβανοί Αδελφοί" in (5.), and sign as such:
You might want to read: «Ιστορία της νήσου Ύδρας προ της (Ελληνικής) Επαναστάσεως του 1821: υπο ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΥ Δ. ΚΡΙΕΖΗ. Εν Πάτραις, 1860» [17]
Also, I have to work on the references of Byzantine writers, or Spandounes for example, who deals with the Albanians in the Medieval Morea, at the eve of Turkish attacks. Guildenrich ( talk) 22:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
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I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for good article status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of June 17, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:
If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status. — Argos' Dad 02:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I'd never have expected I'd take part in revert wars about adding or removing "Former Yugoslav..." from references to the Republic of Macedonia, but now that we have WP:MOSMAC I really thought this was sorted out. From the discussion between Nikos and Pmanderson on that talk page I took it that it was clearly understood during the negotiations that the language of the proposed guideline was not supposed to mean that every article dealing with Greece should automatically use "Former Yugoslav...", and that any such demand would never achieve consensus. If the guideline is now nevertheless interpreted in this way, then I throw up my hands in despair. In that case, the guideline is dead, dead, dead. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh well. Can we please develop a habit of not reverting each other's substantial edits before we've had a discussion about the merits of the case first? The edits Albanau reverted to ( [1]) were hardly wrong, they were just redundant. If you read the article closely, almost everything in added in that edit was already in the article anyway, and sourced too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The first reference citation associated with the first sentence in the history section of the article needs elaboration. Full citations are in order. Also, direct quotes from those sources would be helpful in providing a form of verifiability for readers. This is a suggestion that could help increase the article's chances of reaching FA status. Just a suggestion that I think needs to be taken into consideration. Deucalionite 18:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I've had enough of this. This guy has pestered everybody with his ungrammatical, repetitive, off-topic, incoherent rants for the better part of a year. He's evidently not prepared to learn.
I propose to treat him as banned for a year. I'm now going to block his main IPs for a long while. Any ban evasion will mean resetting of the ban for another year. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
In case that you unblock me I will show improvement ,i will try not to make any claim without showing references first(I often did not although), and my sign that I will change is my new username. My motivation have been clear to anyone, I feel sorry that are not many Albanian users and academics in the field in wikipedia , myself I am engaged in totally different profession but for me the history of our nation is important. What I fight for is the truth and I hate deformities. I feel that I do not deserve this so long ban, is just some thoughts that I wrote ….Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodona eprioti ( talk • contribs) 15:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
You should not put so much “barbed wire” to Albanians if you want collaborative, the references are there depends what you pick up, banned for not any apparent reasons is not the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.62 ( talk) 08:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll revert this back, it is an important part of state-of-the-art sociological analysis of Arvanite communities. And yes, I read those references. (Couldn't get hold of Tsitsipis 1981 itself, to tell you the truth, but several later ones of his articles where he quotes and expands on his own previous analyses, as well as the Botsi study, Trudgill/Tzaveras and others.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Markos Botsaris was no Arvanite, was he? He was a Souliot.-- NetProfit 20:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"Captain Bogia and Captain Giavella, two of the most considerable of the chiefs of the Greek inhabitants of the mountain of Sulli", I totally agree with Fut.Purf .The statement has a strong bias and indicate ,whether who was consider Greek and who not at that time. The inhabitant of Suli were Christian orthodox Arvanites and of course Greek , because Arvanites are Greek and are substantial part of the Greek nation, but they have they own identity different from what makes to day Greece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 18:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
"By this is meant the self-censorship * and self-devaluation* by the speakers of the minority language, who come to internalise the negative connotations ascribed to their group"
sorry, but this is a POV general rule apllied to Greece rather than a sourced example within Greece, and the concrete examples in tstisipis are of lower visibility and inter-familial culture. Again, not only is it POV to assert that this constitues self-attack, but also to come back to , the popular understanding that most people would have of self-deprecation when they see it on a page such as this would be self-insult rather than self-denial, regardless of the academic use.
Arvanitas2007 11:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
there are several historical figures within many areas of greek life who have been publicly both arvanite and very identified with greece, which leads to me think this is a potentially misleading formulation. I will re-search for the only quoted web source ; overall this is a reasonable object I think.
Arvanitas2007 11:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Note to user FPS. Out of curiosity, does Tsitsipis give a Greek word for self-deprececation? Also, if you maintain that 'acedemic literature' says it, could you give further examples other than just Tsitsipis? Otherwise it may be useful to re-edit your text. Politis 11:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
there is a still remains a visible problem with having this as the only formulation in the article though, which is that a succession of widely known greeks have also been visibly arvanite and are part of the country's legends. If you are going to retain what I think is that very POV formulation, then I can't why see such a qualification cannot also be added.
Arvanitas2007 11:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
'Today's Arvanitika speakers constitute a group that is completely assimilated culturally, and have a Greek national identification' this quotation by Botsi which happen to be Arvanites and scholar in your opinion is not true because Arvanites are the Greek nation itself, and from the other hand you should not ignore a greek Helsinki human right report of 2001. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 20:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
You could not write as I was a ignorant or something because you do not know nothing about me , in contrary of you it not happen that I write things that my self do not believe on them even written from a person with PhD ?! , I mean a guy which has done extensive study in her community to come in the conclusion that they not exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
“Arvanites have become largely assimilated” means although it is not said that they mostly do not exist any more as identity.Cultural assimilation, sorry but by which culture?! I know english enough for a non – native —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
‘ ‘ Cultural assimilation (often called merely assimilation) is an intense process of consistent integration whereby members of an ethno-cultural group, typically immigrants, or other minority groups, are "absorbed" into an established, generally larger community. This presumes a loss of many characteristics which make the newcomers different. A region or society where assimilation is occurring is sometimes referred to as a melting pot. Assimilation can also be the process through which people lose originally differentiating traits, such as dress, speech particularities or mannerisms, when they come into contact with another society or culture. Often used to describe immigrant adaptation to new places or residence.’ ‘ my thinking is that this term is not suitable for Arvanites. Of course I will read more books. I like this advice, anybody needs, no one knows enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Some interested points in this report! [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by PIRRO BURRI ( talk • contribs) 09:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Theodoros Kolokotronis in any book mention Arvanites is mention , even is family is well known originally from Epirus . The Arvanitic Legue of Greece mention the dominand role of Arvanites and Arvanitic language in the formation of Greek nation, the articul does not share this view. Moreover efforts to study Arvanitika in academic level is from the main pourpose of Arvanitic legue of Greece. Such a role is being ignore with purpose, this is what I think. PIRRO BURRI 16:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
In present time other non- Greek and non- hellenic population group in Greece are called Hellenic like Vlleh, Slavs ,Jewish and other aziatic , they have priority in the contrary to the original population and their relatives., Why is that ? -- PIRRO BURRI 16:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Arvanites are what remains from once Hellenic population and tribes that , identification as “self-hating” comes that partly because of ignorance of this simple fact they have mostly the right to be call helenic in to day Greece and this is “ meagali alithia” and because they lost their original language ( value of which the uneducated part was unable to appreciate) and the other reason of their hate for their Albanian cousins comes because they ( politically influenced) identify them with Turkish ( Muslim) and because … other simple fact because Albanian people usually hate and love each other , was like that since Homeric pelasgic time until to day -- PIRRO BURRI 19:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you comment on waht this Arvanites writes about the official ideology treating all other inhabitants of Greece besides Arvanites as Helen!! -- PIRRO BURRI 14:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC) It is true that the Arvanites of Andros - I belong to them, from my father's side - have been ashamed for a long time of their roots and their language. This feeling, which led to the abandonment of their mother tongue, the Arvanitika or Arb'risht, has many reasons. One important reason is the fact that the inhabitants of the Greek-speaking capital of Andros, Hora, and of some nearby prosperous villages used to look down to the Arvanites. Another one, which pertains to all the Arvanites of Greece, was the dominance for many decades of the official national ideology based on the myth that all the inhabitants of modern Greece were direct descendants of "our glorious ancient ancestors". It is obvious that the Arvanites, a non-Greek speaking population - with a Greek national consciousness though - could not fit in such an ideology unless they abandoned their "particularities" - that means their language. The latter is actually a non-written dialect of the mediaeval South-Albanian (Tosk). Although I am 34, I have learned Arvanitika with a lot of effort and I consider it as a part of our cultural heritage, listed by Unesco among the "seriously endangered languages". If you wish to find more information about the Arvanites of Andros and of other regions of Greece, you can visit the site http: //go.to/arvanites, Yiannis S Vitaliotis Kallithea
"Arvanites are the majority of population of my country(Greece)" King George said...-- PIRRO BURRI ( talk) 11:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
"Kombet nuk jane insekte, qe mund te heqin dore dhe te braktisin aq kollaj kombesine, gjuhen zakonet dhe traditat e tyre si gjarperinjte qe nderrojne lekuren, te mohojne eterit, memedheun dhe fisnikerine e tij, traditat e trimerise se vet, eshte anakronizem dhe e padegjuar, qe ne historine e kombeve te gjejme nje popull aq haram dhe indiferent ndaj vetvetes"
Αν πιστεύετε ότι οι έλληνες αρβανίτες δεν είναι έλληνες τότε γιατι δεν μας φέρνετε μια ανάλυση του DNA σας για να μας αποδείξετε ότι εσείς είστε πράγματι έλληνας. Δεν θα σας στο συμβούλευα προσωπικά να το κάνετε γιατι το αποτέλεσμα της αναλύσεως θα είναι ιδιαιτέρως δυσάρεστο ως πρός την προσέγγισή σας περί ελληνικότητος.-- Arvanitia ( talk) 11:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
There are no reliable figures about the number of Arvanites in Greece today and their exact number is unknown (no official data exist for ethnicity in Greece) [3]. -- Shqiponja Pellasge ( talk) 10:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
As fare as i can see from all the data available taking in consideration the population exchange and other influx of migrations in Greece , Arvanites are still majority in to day Greece but not linguistically. From all the data available taking in consideration the population exchange and other influx of migrations in Greece , Arvanites are still majority in to day Greece but not linguistically. -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Those that later became Arvanite or Albanian speakers were not actually albanians or arvanites but for the most part victims of islamization and later communist brainwashing. Megistias ( talk) 12:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, I think you're delusional. Define 'Greek' ? If you say that it any Orthodox is Greek, than yeah, but otherwise you have no clue. Long before Turks arrived 45% of 'Greeks' were Albanian:
"The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece." http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
These are scholars not you dreaming of Megali. Any Greek became so thanks to your Church helenizing them. See the Stradioti http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html and notice how they became more "Greek" as years went by. But let's agree to disagree, you're probably my cousin, unless you have Slav blood.
We can contest his discussion mostly the part that the Greeks came from Slavs and his map of Albanian- Arvanite or Epirotic extension, where presently the real Greek lives.
[4]--
Aspetus (
talk)
18:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Re. Megistias' edits [5] and my partial revert [6] regarding Kollias: I quite agree the scholarly value of his work is very limited. However, we do need the reference in order to deal with the "Pelasgian" link. It's already duly placed only in a footnote and clearly marked as non-mainstream, thus satisfying WP:UNDUE. Also, claiming openly that he was a "pseudo-historian" is hardly NPOV, especially as we have no reliable third-party coverage of him, be it positive or negative. In fact, I just got his article deleted for lack of notability just a few weeks ago.
Ironically, when we had the big edit-wars about this article, it used to be pro-Greek editors quoting him in order to prove the Greekness of the Arvanites... I think that's basically why he got in in the first place. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC) Kola is famous among the Greeks and Albanians but specially among Arvanites! Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 20:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It is a very balanced view where all the aspects are mentions linguistic , history , ethnography , traditions etc very informative and well sourced! He is famous because he was: The president of Arvanitic Legue of Greece for so long and this organization is not ordinary as fare as I know . Second he is best seller in Greece and in Albania , third you have to know how much is a persons known or famous among his patriots… as I know he is !Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 21:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Arvanites who considers themselves as such are Albanians. Arvanites are a Albanian population group in Greece. -- Albanau ( talk) 14:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
They are not endangered indeed.And it is wrong to consider them Albanian,as an extremely limited number among them accepts an albanian conection.We are what we choose to be,and since Arvanites consider themselves Greek,than Greek is what they are.It saddens me in a way,but it is their choice and we(Albanians)should do nothing but respect it.However, I don't think we can exlude the fact that the Greek national conscience they have obtained was slowly achieved through the assimilation proccess of the dictatorships they went through(Metaxas,military junta).After all, the Arberesh of Italy who migrated there more or less when the Arvanites migrated to Greece still consider Albanians as their relatives,cousins if you will,and do not resent being called as such. Amenifus ( talk) 10:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I comment on one thing,you answer to another.Don't alert yourself,I'm not trying to albanise them(-are you actually reading my comments?),I'm simply pointing out the paradox between them and the Arberesh of Italy.They migrated to Greece either by invitation of the Byzantine Empire,or later on after the Ottoman invasion.They were not consiously Greek initially,they identified themselves as Orthodox rather than a separate nation.Obviously they differentiated from the rest of the Albanian population after the conversion to Islam,but can you really deny the helenising attempts?I am an Albanian Orthodox and I don't differentiate myself from my muslim countrymen,the Arberesh are Catholic and yet they don't "resent being called Albanian".We passed through our religious diversities during the late 19th century,a bit before the Arvanites manifesto happened,showing that they didn't resent us that much.In modern times however they do "dislike" being called Albanian.Coincidentally enough the two forementioned dictatorships took place in the 20th century,and Arvanites were forced..."ahem"...convinced to adopt "katharevousa",formal Greek,as their one and only language.In my opinion this wasn't a very benevolent act on behalf of the Greek government,considering the sacrifices of the Arvanites during the Greek independence struggle of 1821 and the Greco-Italian war.Now,as for Albania's claim on Greek territories that is simply an answer to Greek claims on Albanian territories(law of action-reaction).As for our "alliance" with Turkey I don't see how else we could face the crazed Iquisition-like Orthodox anti-albanian alliance in the Balkans.If the Greek media choose to identify us with Turkey,fine by me,but keep in mind that we don't have the same attachment to religion as our neighbors.Albanian muslims were the only muslims to rise against the Ottoman empire under no religious rallying cry,and don't forget that Albania's national hero does anything but bring us close with Turkey.So please lets not turn this article into yet another Greek-Albanian clash. Amenifus ( talk) 12:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it was wrong on my behalf to suggest that "language enforcement".My sincere apologies,please don't feel offended as it wasn't my intention.However,they were indeed bilingual and not much effort was made to preserve their "other" language,correct?How does one come to hating his own past and origins?Bottom line,I don't think that Arvanites should be used to fuel up more nationalism rather than soften the relationship between the two countries.After all,I can't recall any other neighboring countries that share such a phenomenon. Amenifus ( talk) 09:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
But you see, "uniformity" is not necessarily good either.How would you feel if the Greeks of Australia,USA,or even Constantinople slowly forgot their heritage,language and everything that differs them from others(which is something already in process)?And even completely identify themselves with their new culture,and in an even more extreme case come into contradiction with their original heritage and tradition?Diversity is not necessarily a negative concept but rather something that should be preserved when not harming others.Having a "pure" nation is not quite possible,especially in the Balkans,and it's not a notion to be encouraged either. Amenifus ( talk) 10:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to tradition and culture,not national identity,and whether the Arvanites wish to preserve it or not is their choice alone.They will still identify themselves as national Greeks, bilingual or not.And if memory serves, the first thing the Greek primeminister did during his recent formal visit in Australia was attending and supervising the greek schools functioning there. Amenifus ( talk) 10:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't suggesting such a thing(separate schools),but only that Arvanitika is not completely forgotten.This particular section of the discussion needs the contribution of someone who identifies himself as Arvanite,I cannot continue to speculate what would be appropriate to do in preserving Arvanitic culture.As I understand there already is an association dealing with such matters in Greece,thus I'm only offering my opinion and suggestions,nothing more,nothing less. Amenifus ( talk) 11:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
You make it sound as though my ultimate goal is for Albanian to thrive in Greece as a language.Albanian in general is not our topic here,Arvanitika is.Immigrants are usually groups that return to their homeland sooner or later and I suggest that you don't confuse them with other communities such as Arvanites.Arvanites are considered Greek citizens with a Greek nationality,unlike immigrants which retain their nationality regardless of citizenship. Amenifus ( talk) 09:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Foreign nationals would be concerned about a group of Greek nationals when there's a particular connection with the specific group.Arvanites and Albanians have an undeniable conection, historically and genetically speaking.This fact does not raise any doubts and the nationality they consider themselves part of is irrelevant.I would be very curious to see your comments if Greece was facing a similar case. Amenifus ( talk) 11:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am not an expert in these issues but this article seems to lack contributions and comments from Arvanites themselves. In this discussion page I see Albanians and Greeks arguing over Arvanitika and the identity of Arvanites. The only member of the Arvanites group who has made a comment so far and whom I would like to thank for his contribution is NikoSilver. I think more Arvanites should help in editing this article. Statements such as "Arvanites in Greece have come to dissociate themselves much more strongly from the Albanians, stressing instead their national self-identification as Greeks" need to be explained. What would cause the Arvanites to dissociate themselves from the Albanians? I think NikoSilver gave us a glimpse of what may have caused the Arvanites to deny their Albanian roots. These kinds of explanations should be included in a discussion theme where Arvanites can tells us about their experiences and their thoughts. ( Toni78 ( talk) 21:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC))
Interestingly, this [7] sociolinguistic study of Arvanite communities mentions "the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus" and describes how the researcher saw him speak Arvanitika. That is our guy, isn't he? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The authors is trying to raise some parallels of Tsakonian (Doric) ( so different from to day Greek as looks as different language) and Arvanitika a form of Albanian ,calling them both language of Greece<refFor example, Tsakonian, the variety of Greek spoken mainly in the eastern Peloponnesos is so different from the rest of Greek, or at least it was, that is might well be called a separate language rather than a dialect of Greek. As recorded in the early 20th century, for instance by Hubert Pernot, it was strikingly different. In more recent years, most Tsakonian speakers are now fluent users of Standard Greek and we find that Standard Greek features are entering Tsakonian. For instance, the negative particle was once the highly archaic form < o >, from ancient Greek , but increasingly in the 20th century it has given way to Standard Modern Greek . In a sense, Tsakonian is both an endangered language and an endangered dialect, just like Arvanitika, and its loss will be a loss for the Greek language and for Greece as a nation.[ http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999comp.pdf]</ref. In fact it is well known that Arvanites call themselves as Doric<refΚωνσταντίνος Μπίρης. Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού. Αθήνα. 1981"</ref/ref>Biris, Kostas (1960): Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του νεότερου Ελληνισμού: H ιστορία των Ελλήνων Αρβανιτών</ref-- Dodona ( talk) 18:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
“If there's anything that relates them( with Dorians ) , it's certainly not their language” if it is not the language.. what it is then the ethnicity?, or their similarity with Dorians ?! -- Dodona ( talk) 18:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Contradict what Biris and others say… with sources and prove that Arvanites are not Dorians, you called the arvanitik ethnic music of epirus as "dimotiko" this is the real Helenic music.you give me sources to prove your thesis-- Dodona ( talk) 19:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Dodona, it seems you haven't taken in a word of what I was telling you the other day. I'm serious. This just has to stop. I'm asking you for a last time: Will you please stop pushing your Arvanitic/Epirotic/Pelasgic pseudolinguistic idee fixe? Because if you do, you have a chance of staying here on wiki peacefully, writing perhaps some nice articles in other areas. But if I hear you talking about these topics one more time, I will ask for you to be banned again. And that will then be final. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Just so everyone knows, I implemented some minor tweaks to the article in order to help improve its overall quality. Please do not assume that I have made significant changes to the article under the guise of "minor edits" (yes, some users apparently make this kind of assumption on Wikipedia). After having read the endless pages of "archived insanity", I really have no intention of getting involved in "debates" over the history and identity of the Arvanites. So, please refrain from dragging me into any pointless arguments since I ultimately don't care who the Arvanites were or where they came from. All I care about is improving articles. I may come back later to assess the structural integrity of the article's content. Hopefully, things will calm down by March 26. Take it easy folks. Elysonius ( talk) 22:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my ability, I have assessed the "structural integrity" of the article's content and found some problems that should be addressed:
Please review and question the aforementioned sources as logically as possible. Granted, they do not provide detailed accounts on the historical origins of the Arvanites. However, these sources regard the Arvanites as something other than "Albanian settlers".
On a sidenote, please refrain from utilizing typical "dead horse" rhetorical tactics in order to avoid expanding and enhancing the quality of this article. Moreover, please refrain from engaging in useless edit-wars over the identity and origins of the Arvanites. I will not be held responsible for any questionable statements made in response to any aspect of this assessment.
As a reminder, I do not care who or what the Arvanites are or where they came from. I cannot stress this enough since I don't care if the Arvanites are ultimately "Greeks", "Albanians", "Albanian-speaking Greeks", "Greek-speaking Albanians", "Romanians", "Bulgarians", or whatever other Balkan ethnicity comes to mind. Therefore, please spare me any misinterpretations of this assessment as "Greek POV pushing". I have neither the patience nor the time to waste on frivolous assumptions. Moreover, do not bother harassing me on my discussion page regarding the issue of the Arvanites' identity/origins just because "I brought it up" as a topic in my assessment.
Carefully read over this assessment and take whatever measures are necessary towards improving this article. If no measures are taken, then I may have to consult other users who may be interested in helping this article undergo further improvement. I would love to be "bold" myself in seriously editing this article, but I have no intention of inadvertently starting edit-wars.
Also, keep in mind that my purpose here is not to waste time "beating dead horses". I already read the discussion page archives and nearly lost my mind doing so. Therefore, please do not assume that I am ignorant of the controversial nature of this article, as well as the various "colorful perspectives" that have constantly prevented this article from moving forward.
Good-bye and good luck. Elysonius ( talk) 20:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC) I want to comment in the followings:
“Greek ethnies (like Arvanites, Vlachs, Slavophones etc.) present "permanent cultural attributes" such as memory, value, myths and symbolisms. Greek ethnies present a common cultural origin descending from ancient Greece and Byzantium.”
This source indirectly quotes that there are different Greek ethnies which present a common cultural origin descending from ANCIENT Greece ,from the Greek ethnies mention I assume that we are talking about Arvanites
‘’Southern Albanians looked more like Greeks than Albanians from the north, whose language they shared - and when the Greeks did achieve independence they adopted as their national dress the outfit Byron had admired as the epitome of Albanian elegance. (pp. 294-295)’’
Does it means here that the Greeks look like as Albanian from the south since they adopted their customs. While some of the Greek of Arvanites placement (internal population movment ) is well know that originate from the north Albania.Else is not only the language shared but also the ethnicity -- Andrea stefani ( talk) 12:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, it is very odd that no one has responded to my assessment despite this article being very controversial. Nevertheless, I decided to be "bold" and tried to implement whatever solutions I could muster toward solving some of the problems I listed in my assessment. If, by any chance, my edits attract another "Wiki World War", then please remove them. Thank you. Elysonius ( talk) 01:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Elysonius, thank you for your work on the sources. However, I'm afraid I can't easily accept the addition of the sentence to the beginning of the history section: "However, their origins have also been associated with southern Albanian-speaking groups possessing a Greek ethnic identity" This sentence implies an opposition to the preceding ("originated from Albanian settlers […]") which simply is nowhere to be seen in the sources. There is no source, none that you cited and none I've ever seen anywhere else, that contradicts the statement that the late medieval Albanian settlers from the north, at the time of their settlement, were precisely that: Albanians of the same ethnic stock and cultural identity as their fellow countrymen they left behind, later to become the present-day Albanian nation.
In fact, none of the five sources you cite seems to even be addressing the issue that this passage is about, that of the origins, i.e. who or what were those settlers when they came. In detail:
In short, I have no doubt that we can use some of these sources somewhere, just not at that point and not to support that particular statement.
By the way, Elysonius, do you happen to be a sock of our old friend Deucalionite? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Why use an obscure piece of technical vocabulary, which no reader is familiar with, outside the academic context to which it belongs, when it adds no extra information or higher degree of precision over the common and absolutely adequate term "dialect" here?
As for "Albanian settlers", in a perfect world I might agree with you that stating their ethnicity explicitly at that point might not be necessary. But the constant stream of POV-pushing single purpose accounts trying to remove it makes it quite clear that in fact it is necessary: there is no shortage of people who will maintain some confused ideological concoctions in their minds according to which they might in some miraculous way not have been Albanians. So we need to clarify it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
There is no reason to assume that all Arvanites originate from Southern Albania, there has been quite a bit of evidence that suggests that many are Geg Albanians. Such proof can be seen in the surnames, for example Gkekas (Gega), Lekas(Leka), and Kriezis(Kryezi) are both Arvanite and northern Albanian surnames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takeoffyourcool ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph it was recently added that Arvanites are a group of Albanian origin. The stable older version was that Arvanites are a group that speaks Arvanitika and I think that it was much better. They should be presented like a distinct cultural group avoiding conclusions that are under discussion (I don't think that anyone here has made any genetic research or has any in mind). Additionally modern Arvanites - whatever their origin was - are descendants of the first Arvanites who arrived to Greece centuries ago and the native populations, so any talk about their (modern Arvanites) origin nowadays seems anything else but neutral. - Sthenel ( talk) 22:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The first Arvanites were of Albanian origin. Modern Arvanites, some of them may have one Arvanite ancestor (a parent, a grand-parent etc), cannot be called "of Albanian origin". It doesn't make sense at all and seems really black-and-white. - Sthenel ( talk) 09:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
You have misapprehended your status as administrator and this is what my reliable sources say. Unfortunately anyone who tries to give an opinion in the articles that you "patronize" has to face up your offensive and pejorative behaviour. Great work! - Sthenel ( talk) 09:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Btw, for Dodona and his reverted comment, I'm not an Arvanite because I care about this article. And I would be very proud if I was. Comment on: "Every ethnic group in the world is factually mixed. So what? That individuals in that group may have mixed ancestries is uncontroversial. But the group as a whole owes its existence to its Albanian origins. As a group, the Arvanites are descended from medieval Albanians in the same sense that Greeks are descended from ancient Greeks, Bretons from ancient British, Germans from ancient Germanic tribes, Vlachs from Latinized ancient Balkanians and so on so forth." Talking for the origin of a nation and a smaller ethnic group which lives for centuries within a nation and intermingled with it are not the same. This group is going to share the same features (genetically and culturally) with the nation that embraces it, after a long period of coexistence. That's what genetics say. - Sthenel ( talk) 09:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Sthenel btw you once said that you have one of your grandfather Arvanites.i have heard that there is not any Greek without any Arvanit ancestry background. The question is that how we will call Arvanites autochthones that lived in Greece before 11th century? If other Arvanites that came later intermix with the same genetic make up population then there is not I significant change after all. Genetic can change but certain characteristics remain for instance genetic research it is been used to find the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel through mtDNA haplotype testing Genealogical DNA test , as well the anthropology can defined certain similar characteristics that you could find between Arvanites and Albanian population, tradition and ethnography also although certain valued were abandoned there are very much similarities. If you pretend this genetic and anthropologic change then the Greek republic should not be call Hellenic after all Albanian fellow —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.65.82 ( talk) 18:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.
Needs inline citations:
Other issues:
This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 02:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, since the issues I raised were not addressed, I have regrettably delisted the article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. If the issues are fixed, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN. With a little work, it should have no problems getting back up to GA status. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate opinion at Good article reassessment. If you have any questions let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! -- Nehrams2020 ( talk) 05:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
The article on Laskarina Bouboulina mentions absolutely nothing on her being an Arvanite, and the Nikos Engonopoulos article has only a category. So are they Arvanites or not? Balkan Fever not a fan? say so! 11:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Since there is no reliable source for Bouboulina, should we remove her from the infobox? - Sthenel ( talk) 18:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
This source shows a lot how the famous Arvanites were and are treated in Greece: "Bouboulina, who had strongly opposed the imprisonment of Kolokotronis, was considered by the then government to be dangerous to the state, and so arrested (twice) with orders for her imprisonment. A written protest by her towards the government still exists in the General Archives of Greece. Finally Bouboulina was expelled back to Spetses where she stayed for the remaining months until her death. http://www.bouboulinamuseum-spetses.gr/English/Museum_Bouboulina.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 16:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
The whole article says that Arbereshe and Albanians are related to Arvanites, why shouldn`t it be in the infobox? This is just a Greek POV. balkanian ( talk) 18:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Could you please take in consideration this famous Arvanites ,as Arvanites of Hellada consider : http://www.arvasynel.gr/dioikisi.html. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 17:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Why is he considered an Arvanite? His article actually lacks any info on that. Beware, Arvanite doesn't mean Albanian of Greece, and Souliote does not mean Arvanite.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 17:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I am really confused on this page. I know that Arvanites has two meanings in Greece, the first is about the dialectological group of Arbëreshë, i.e. the ones who speak Arvanitika dialect, and have their own distinct culture, mainly in Southern Greece, and the second is a generalization of all Albanian-speaking groups of Greece. I propose that we keep in here only the sense of the subgroup, i.e. the dialectological, regional group, and not the elements of other subgroups, who live in Greece. What do you think? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 19:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The New Testament in Arvanitika: [10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.2.112 ( talk) 17:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Karl Reinhold was the first man to publish something in the field of folklore. His book in *.pdf, can be downloaded here: [11] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.2.112 ( talk) 19:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand why K. Reinhold's book link, one of the first books to be ever published in Arvanitika with a Latin preface and explanations in Greek, should not be visible on the links' section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich ( talk • contribs) 15:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
-"To 1855 o Θεόδωρος Ράινχολντ εκδίδει βιβλίο για τη γλώσσα του Στόλου. ήταν και αυτός ένας Βαυαρός που ήρθε και υπηρέτησε στο στόλο για 12 χρόνια, ήταν Αρχίατρος του Ελληνικού Στόλου και έχει σαν υπότιτλο του έργου του "Η γλώσσα του Στόλου". Την εποχή αυτή η γλώσσα που ομιλούνταν στο ηρωικό ναυτικό μας, που είχε μία συνέχεια με το ναυτικό του 1821, ήταν η αρβανίτικη γλώσσα και συνήθως αναφέρεται στις ναυτοπεριοχές που πλαισίωναν το στόλο της εποχής αυτής, τις Σπέτσες, την Ύδρα, τα Μέθανα και τον Πόρο. Στο έργο υπάρχει καταγραφή πολλών λέξεων, ένα λεξικό, ορισμένα τραγούδια και παροιμίες και διάφορα γλωσσικά στοιχεία. Τα ονομάζει πελασγικά γιατί και αυτός πίστευε ότι η αρβανίτικη είναι επιβίωση της πελασγικής γλώσσας. Το 1907, βλέπω εδώ, στα επίσημα αρχεία του Υπουργείου Εσωτερικών, στις Σπέτσες δεν αναφέρεται ούτε ένας να μιλάει αρβανίτικα!"
Αριστείδης Κόλλιας, από το συνέδριο του ΚΕΜΟ "Γλωσσική ετερότητα στην Ελλάδα". Guildenrich ( talk) 09:45, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
On Google books, I stumbled upon this historical source:
("The History of Greece: from its Conquest by the Crusaders to its Conquest by the Turks; and of the Empire of Trebizond, 1204 - 1461; by George Finlay. 1851" p. 39.) Guildenrich 00:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Dear macrakis, the above statement George Finlay made in the XIX.th century, can be refined even further in the light of other works, and I quote:
People who style themselves "The Albanian Brothers" or in Greek "οι Αλβανοί Αδελφοί" in (5.), and sign as such:
You might want to read: «Ιστορία της νήσου Ύδρας προ της (Ελληνικής) Επαναστάσεως του 1821: υπο ΓΕΩΡΓΙΟΥ Δ. ΚΡΙΕΖΗ. Εν Πάτραις, 1860» [17]
Also, I have to work on the references of Byzantine writers, or Spandounes for example, who deals with the Albanians in the Medieval Morea, at the eve of Turkish attacks. Guildenrich ( talk) 22:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)