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Why does he get to make changes, he has a biased view on this topic, this is NOT FAIR!!!!
Impratial? Are you kidding? This site has been hijacked, and the hijcacking is being enforced by partially blocking it. This is turning out to be a big farce!!! 83.77.132.154 14:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide came into force in 1950 and it is not applicable for the events before this date. legally we can't call this event as Genocide. And please do not forget that in 1915 Turkish and Kurdish civilians were also killed by Armenian forcesç for the full text of the treaty please visit: [2]-- Hattusili 19:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Under the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court, genocide can be decided by legal principles or by a court of justice. You are right my link is bad I will soon correct it.-- Hattusili 18:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It is HIGHLY LIKELY that Lutherian is most or all of those IPs. It is UNLIKELY that any of them are Shelby28. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 20:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Nice article, but what is the Armenian name for the genocide? D iyako Talk + 12:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
We just call it the Armenian Genocide.
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 11:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Also the article needs more and more images [3]. but of course images in public domain. D iyako Talk + 12:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
These need to go. See Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words.
- FrancisTyers 16:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we work on this first? Fad (ix) 17:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
On the list of countries that recognize the Armenian Genocide, I saw Bulgaria. What is the rationale of having Bulgaria on that list, since according to this http://www.arminfo.am/news_250206_2.shtml article, the resolution has been submitted to the Bulgarian Parliament.-- Moosh88 00:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Please keep your arguments to the arguments page. As the notice at the top of the page shows, any non-editorial comments may be moved there without further notice. Remember, this is a talk page for a Wikipedia article, not a soapbox. That goes for both sides of the dispute. Please refrain from personal attacks and try and remain civil. - FrancisTyers 10:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
is an unofficial organization linked to terrorist PKK group as mentioned in their own website PKE Furthermore, its already mentioned in the "official recognition" section so adding it a second time serves absolutely no purpose! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.1.89.101 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 27 March 2006.
Can someone double check whether that map is accurate. Having looked at the ANI list of Resolutions, Laws, and Declarations I cannot see Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Norway as recognising a genocide as the map (and this article) suggests. -- A.Garnet 17:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should make another page about the Turkish thesis, to provide neutrality and place links between these two pages. Armenian Genocide (Turkish Thesis) -- Hattusili 12:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints" but this article does not fairly represent the opposition. We cannot request unprotection for this page because radical nationalists may ruin it all. so what should we do? -- Hattusili 13:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Eupator 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is totally different from what we are argueing here, the Turkish side also have strong evidences about their claims so that an article about Armenian Issue should include their thesis. wikipedia has to be neutral in such issues. -- Hattusili 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As a side note, an article on Non-Armenian casualties during the Armenian Genocide would probably not fall under the definition of a POV fork. Providing the page did not duplicate information here and was restricted in scope. As far as I'm aware the main Turkish argument is that "lots of people not just Armenians died" so a page explaining that would probably be good. The page could then be linked from here using the {{ main}} template. Just a suggestion, feel free to shoot it down... - FrancisTyers 17:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
what about starting an entry about "Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915" or "Armenian armed operations and forced emigration" ? I think it can be a fair start. -- Hattusili 18:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment partially moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)] Wikipedia should not be allowed to be used as propoganda for hateful genociders - for those who perpetuate genocide through its denial. None of this would even be remotel;y allowable in a Holocaust article and this article should be no different. -- THOTH 19:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You see, I have left this article for near a week I think and thought that things will settle down, but this is not what happened, visit any pages, or the Hereros, or the Khmer Rouge regime, the Holocaust, the Ukrainian famine, the Hereros genocide etc., etc., etc... and tell me if there is at least one other equivalent article that has given as much space or if any members there had as much patience as I had here.
No, no 'Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915,' and the reason is obvious, very obvious. You can attempt to build a parallel page to this, it won't make it much encyclopedic. Why? Here some reasons why, the Ottoman records were dumping the entire Muslim population, no separation between the groups, in the East, the Kurds, the Circassians, etc... were the majority Muslim population, besides maybe Erzerum or some other places, whos majority Muslim population were Turk I think. Many Muslims died during WWI(millions of Germans died in World War II), but most of Muslim casulties happened starting with mid 1916, when already over 800,000 Armenians have died. Besides, there has been a war between the Arabs and Turks, between Kurdish revolutionaries and Turks, there has been Envers megalomany sending his army on the front to freeze in Winter, or the starving army in the East, and this as a result of the ministry of the war evacuation of the Armenians which deprived the East and amputating the food supply.
So, you see why you can't have a Turkish casulties page? Because Turks were not separated from other Muslims. Also, there was very few Turkish civilian casulties in 1915, Muslim casulties jumped upward in 1916, during which time the Eastern zones Armenian population was gone.
Does the Turkish government section not give enought space for your second proposition? Don't forget that when I have proposed this, there wasn't much space for the Turkish position, you don't expect to have nearly half of the spaces in the main article and another full for the Turkish position, do you? Fad (ix) 19:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
you are so biased that you do not hesitate to use such terms against people who does not think lilke you.-- Hattusili 10:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[section moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 01:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it was rovoam who vandalised this page. If he gets blocked he comes back on another IP address and these are the type of pages he vandalises. Be careful of him as he's the most dangerous and persistent vandal in all of wikipedia.
Thank you.
Micoolio101 07:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Are they not as important as the Jewish so their deaths are called a genocide instead of an holocaust? Or is the word holocaust used only for what happened to the Jews between 1939 - 1945?
[discussion moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 11:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
You can see the photos here I will be adding them to the article when the page gets unprotected-- CltFn 05:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is the moderation? Where is the logic? The way this article has been presented and discussed transcends personal biases, and is primarily meant to instill propaganda for both ends.The historical relevance of this article is horrendous, furthermore it does not provide the reader with the opportunity to gain a logical understanding on the Armenian or Turkish claims.Propaganda techniques, such as association (comparing the Holocaust to the Armenian Genocide claims) ruin any validity this article can have, and until this article is cleaned up it will remain a stain on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blasphemy ( talk • contribs)
I am compelled to agree with the above. This is an affront to anything remotely scholarly or historical. It is time you all accepted that the Armenian Genocide page on Wikipedia is a failed project, scrap it entirely and leave it to better qualified people to start again.
In a recent unrelated debate concerning the dispute between Britannica and a research group that stated Wikipedia is just as accurate, I challenged my opponent to present, following his claim that Wiki was full of nonsense, an article that was indeed full of nonsense. He directed me here and I promptly conceded defeat.
This statement is the intro is horseradish. Makes it seem like the Ottoman's were so kind as to "evacuate" the Armenians , for their own protection no doubt , and how unfortunate that the Armenians accidentaly died in the process.-- CltFn 04:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please discuss changes. Please also let me know when everyone has calmed down. (Be aware that the protection is not an endorsement of the current version.) -- Nlu ( talk) 05:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there has been little discussion in this article for most of April...so hash it out here and not on each others talk pages. I have to agree with the use of the word "deaths" over massacre but only because it is better English.-- MONGO 05:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
NPOV means taking all sides of an issue into consideration, no matter how accurate you see one side to be. Let me give you a good example of this - check out the Adana massacre page. It gives both the Armenian and the Turkish side. We may not see one side as the "truth", but that's not what NPOV is about, it's about neutrality. Calling the events of the Armenian Genocide "massacres" is POV. I really hope you understand what I'm saying. — Khoikhoi 04:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Any comment? Fad (ix) 16:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 08:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the following links must be included in the article and the denial of the Armenian Genocide - includign attempts by Turks and such here to do so - must be presented in their proper light - as genocide denial and nothing more. -- THOTH 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Some links -
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/ethics.html
http://ermeni.org/english/cleansingarchives.htm
http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html
http://www.theforgotten.org/denial/
This link actually concerns Turkish affirmation of the Armenian Genocide (which also needs to be presented more comprehesively in the articel itself) -
-- THOTH 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
See for yourselves http://www.theforgotten.org/denial2005/slide.asp?image=4 85.101.153.17 23:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "The majority of the camps were situated near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers", but neither "Iraq" nor "Syria" existed at this time (it should be something like "situated near what is now the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers"). Also, Dayr az-Zawr is on the "Euphrates" river, not the "europhites". The footnotes should be fixed as well to go to the correct number. Makgraf 03:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no 'Turkish affirmation of the Armenian genocide'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.184.62 ( talk • contribs) diff
Just to mention that there are at least two controversial POV pages on the same topic, Armenian Genocide and Turkish National Movement (apparently written by an Armenian nationalist) and Armenian allegations (a text dump from a government website cited here, by a Turkish nationalist). Both are badly written and I suggest merging any useful content into section 4 and 5 before they are removed, and maybe creating a new section to describe Armenians seeking acknowledgement/redress.
It may be necessary to go a bit deeper into the concept of genocide in general in order to justify the title to a more inclusive group. The genocide article refers to the definition in the 1946 Convention and the quote by Raphael Lemkin that also appears in Genocide (1981) by Leo Kuper. -- Cedders 11:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Fad (ix) 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In January 1919, 140 high-ranked Turkish government officials were taken into custody because of allegations about them on Armenian Genocide. They were taken to Malta. Things I'll mention are referred to as Malta Tribunal. Investigation ended in November 2, 1921. All of them were released due to lack of evidence. All the aforementioned documents were available before November 2, 1921. Toynbee and Bryce's book was even published by British government who did the investigation. At the time Ottoman archives were in Istanbul which was under British occupation. American archives were also examined. “There are in hands of Majesty’s government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.” BritishArchives. PRO—F. 0. 371/6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes Telegram No 176, dated March 31,1921.
Had you actually read the archive of this talk page, maybe you would see this has bee covered and being a pure fabrication.
The Malta Tribunal that never existed. The revisionists often fabricate a Malta tribunal that actually never took place.
Actually, there was only one Turkish searcher that really adventured in this subject. He published various works (Turkish and English(mostly the translation and reedition of the Turkish versions) about this topic, and it is Bilal N. Simsir. I will just quote the last words from his work: “The Deportees of Malta and the Armenian Question.”
“As a result, all detainees at Malta were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal.”
Even he admit there was not Malta tribunal.
Denialists of the Armenian genocide often claim that a “Malta tribunal” was conducted by the British, and after investigations and prosecutions, the prisoners were released because of lack of “proof.” But according to historical records there never was any Malta tribunal; such lies are meant to fool the innocent reader into believing that the extermination of the Ottoman Armenians never occurred and in the same time to divert the attention from a real tribunal which concluded that, in reality, the Armenians were victims of extermination. In fact, the Turkish military tribunal brought evidence from Ottoman high officials that the Armenians were victim of a premeditated plan to annihilate them. The apologists of the genocide claim that the tribunal in question was set by the Allies and therefore not credible. Such denialists don’t realise that such a claim would just as well discredit the Nuremberg Tribunal that brought NAZI war criminals to be judged; because the Nuremberg Tribunal was conducted by the Allies, while the military tribunal was a Turkish tribunal, so, if a "Turkish" tribunal was controlled by the "invaders," so was the Nuremberg. And if, in fact, the documents presented during the Turkish tribunal were forged, one wonders why the Turkish government until today forbids access to them. If they are forged???, why the fear of making them public?
Additionally, what denialists fail to mention is that many of the prisoners of Malta were handed to the British officials after being convicted as guilty by the Turkish military tribunal; in fact, there was supposed to be two tribunals, the first one being a Turkish one to judge and send to Malta those being charged, and after the end of the same tribunal to provide to the British officials the documents that allowed them to charge the criminals sent to Malta.
The claim that Malta prisoners were taken without any selections is groundless when reviewing the files attached to each prisoner. One example here is the one of Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey.
Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey Malta No. 2800 Interned 7.6.20
Appointments:
“Vali of Bitlis, March 1914 to September 1915. Under Secretary of State, Ministry of the Interior. Vali of Aleppo October 1915 to April 1917 Brother in law of Talaat.
Lists:
His name appears on Lists VI and VII ( List VII is the F.O. List).
Arrests:
A. He was arrested by the Turkish Government on 9 March, 1919, not upon our suggestion. The charge was murder. On the Turkish prison list of 7 February, 1920, he is stated to have been released on bail; date not provided (probably some time between 20.9.19 and 7.2.20).
B. He was again arrested by the British Military Authorities on or about the 14 May, 1920.
Petitions: None to date, 25.2.21
Accusations:
5027/A/20. Through Mr. Ryan on 19th September 1919. Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, took part in the councils held at Erzurum to decide on the deportations and massacres of Armenians. These councils were presided over by Dr. Behaeddin Shakir, delegate of the Central C.U.P. (one of the Principal Eight); other members were Tashin Bey (a deportee), Vali of Erzurum; Muammer (a deportee), Vali of Sivas; and Djevdet (a deportee), Vali of Van.
5030/B/10. On September 26, 1919, Mrs. Sophie Varjabedian, a Bitlis refugee then at Haidar Pasha, c./o. Rev. B. Bedrossian, Bible House, Constantinople, writes accusing Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, of having carried away under his personal superintendence the safe from the American Mission in Bitlis. The safe contained her money and jewellery. Miss Chane, now at Erivan, reported this to Mrs. Varjabedian. She asks for the restoration of her property and gives a list.
Assistant High Commissioner approved the suggestion of making inquires at the United States Embassy but there is no record as to whether any action was taken.
5031/A/6. Name merely appears on a Bureau d'Information Armenien list of 30. 12.18, as the Vali of Aleppo, in connection with Marash massacres.
5035/C/178. On June 7th, 1919, Mrs. Ahisag Ahet Ahlahadian writes, through the A.C.R.N.E (American Committee, Relief in the Near East), saying that she is a Protestant Syrian of Bitlis and that all her relatives had been massacred in 1915 in Bitlis in spite of the fact that she had paid the Vali, Mustafa Abdul Halik, to the extent of LT 541 gold.
5036/48. A. Account by Sympat Kerkoyan of crimes committed by Mustafa Abdul Halik at Bitlis in 1915. Starving prisoners; massacring 200 to 300 at a time outside the town; ravishing and massacring the women; extorting and looting of Armenian property. The stench from putrefying bodies was so bad that Buheddin, Director of Health, Bitlis, received orders to have the bodies incinerated. Buheddin was in Aleppo in 1918. B. Also murder of Djerdjis Kerkoyan, brother of Sympat after Mustafa Abdul Halik had extorted his fortune on promising to spare his life. C. Mustafa Abdul Halik replaced Bekir Sami Bey (the "good" Vali, now a prominent Nationalist) at Aleppo on 4.10.15. There he gave orders for the deportation and killing of Sympat Kerkoyan. Thanks to Hadji Yehia Galib Bey, the defterdar (now the defterdar of Kastambol), Sympat reached Mossul alive. The above per Mr. Rizzo on 16.10.19.
5030/A/21. Statement by Sympat Kerkoyan, merchant of Bitlis dated 19.5.20. Bitlis May 1915 atrocities. Massacre of Kerkoyan's family; wife and three children; three brothers and their families. Kerkoyan's deportation to Mossul by the Vali of Aleppo; Mustafa Abdul Halik.
…”
This prisoner (Abdul Halik Bey) was not arrested without reason; from British archival records it is evident that Abdul Halik was present at the Council held in Erzurum to put in application the extermination measures. From the same British archival records, Cevdet the governor of Van, Tashin, Muammer, and Dr. Sakir were also present during that Council. The group was even called “all the very worst of criminals.” (Source: Report of September 19, 1919, Andrew Ryan, BFO 371/6501, pg 4, folder 540/40)
The British had even selected some of the prisoners that should, under no circumstances, be released, and about the four governors that planned and executed the eradication of the Armenians in Eastern Ottoman, after documenting their guilt they concluded, “whom we propose to retain to the last they are gravely implicated in the crimes of massacre.” (Source: BFO 371/6504, folders 136, 146. As well, BFO 371/6504/E10023)
But later the War Office implored Foreign Secretary Curzon to release the group in order to exchange them with the two British prisoners that the Kemalists took, Rawlinson and Campell.(Source: BFO 371/6504, E10411) By doing such Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) refused to honour the Exchange Agreement of March 16, 1921 that was excluding in the exchanges several Ittihadists that had a key role in the Armenian genocide. (Source: FO 371/6500/E3375 (folio 284/15)) In fact the new Foreign Minister Youssouf Kemal asked for the “all for all” exchange. (Source: FO 371/6509(folio 47)) But the British had still tried to impose the agreement and the promises given by Mustafa Kemal himself, more particularly regarding about 20 of the most criminals among them. First, Cevdet the governor of Van with another (they and some others were called “the most notorious members of the group”) escaped (source: FO 371/5091/E16080 (folio 85)); upon finding out about the escape the British Foreign Office responded that the two prisoners “have broken parole.” On September 6, 1921, 16 other Ittihadists excluded from the exchange as well were able to escape. Angry, the Foreign Office remarked, “how little Turkish sense of honor can be relied on.” (Source: FO 3071/6509/E10662 (folio 159))
The Turkish sociologist and publicist Yalman, who had secret discussions with many of the Ittihadists, has been himself detained at Malta and has stated that the anti-Armenian measures reflected a "policy of general extermination" to remove "the danger" to Turkey of "a dense Armenian population in the Eastern Provinces." (Source: A. E. Yalman, Turkey in the World War (New Haven, 1930), 220.
The British plan to send to justice more criminals was becoming more problematic by the end of September, 1919, when Sultan Damad Ferid's Cabinet was being dissolved slowly in the profit of the Kemalism. On November 17, 1919, the new High Commissioner Admiral de Robeck, told Curzon that
“…the present Turkish Government...[is] so dependent on the toleration of the organisers of the [Kemalist] National Movement that I feel it would be futile to ask for the arrest of any Turk accused of offences against Christians, even though he may be living openly in Constantinople...I do not consider it politically advisable to deport [to Malta] any more prisoners.”
(Source: BFO 371/4174/15672 1 (folios 523-24))
And later also noted:
“…the question of retribution for the deportations and massacres will be an element of venomous trouble in the life of each of the countries concerned.”
(Source: BFO 371/4174/136069 (folio 470))
During the 20’s, Lamb, the political-legal officer of the British High Commission at Istanbul, understanding the non-seriousness in the judging of the criminals detained in Malta, warned his superiors:
“Unless there is whole-hearted co-operation and will to act among the Allies, the trials will fall to the ground and the direct and indirect massacres of about one million Christians will get off unscathed.”
(Source: FO 371/6500/, W. 2178, appendix A( folio 385-118, 386-119), Aug. 11, 1920.)
One must not ignore that in addition to the fact that the prisoners were released because they were exchanged with British prisoners, as well the fact that it was advised to release them because the imperial government favored good relations with the Kemalists. Another major reason was responsible of the release of the prisoners, a reason that apologists have tried to keep under the carpet. On March 10, 1921, Ankara's Foreign Minister Bekir Sami assured the British that the prisoners being released would be judged in a court. Later officially on June 11, 1921, the Ankara government informed the British that when the Malta prisoners will be released in exchange of British prisoners:
“…those accused of crimes would be put on impartial trial at Ankara in the same way as German prisoners were being tried in Germany.”
(Source: FO 371/6499/E3110, p. 190; see also FO 371/5049/E6376, folio 187; A. Yalman, Turkey in My Time ( Norman, OK, 1956), 106.)
The British at the end had no reason to keep the prisoners anymore. By releasing them they scored many points. Firstly, the British prisoners would be released in exchange. Secondly they would not have to deal with what they viewed as “venomous trouble.” Thirdly, in the eyes of the Kemalists they would gain some respect which as a result would open the roads of economic exchanges. Lastly, why keep those prisoners and go through the trouble of judging them, when the Kemalists promised that those prisoners would be judged in Ankara?
It is true that many Ittihadist high ranked were judged by judicial proceedings in Izmir and Ankara. Among them were Halis Turgut who had escaped the prosecutions of the Turkish military tribunal previously, Ahmed Shükrü, Ismail Canbolat (the right hand of Talaat), Dr. Nazim, Yenibahçeli Nail, and Filibeli Hilmi (Dr. Shakir’s right hand). Some of the killed/condemned to death were brigands and military officials and soldiers used by the Ittihadists. One of those, Yahya Kaptan, was killed in July 1922 by unknown assassins. The rumour was that he had threatened Turkish officials with releasing state secrets if they were to carry investigations on him (he had a major role on the drowning into the sea of thousands of women and children). Topal Osman was killed by a military unit trying to capture him in March 1923. Halit (Deli) was killed in the Turkish parliament on February 9, 1925.
Even after those trials, the honesty of the Kemalist government could still be questioned, since many influential figures in the Young Turk government as well as pan-Turkists and Turanists were later introduced in the Kemalist administration. The Young Turk ex-minister of finances, Djavid Bey, was the nearest collaborator of Bekir Sami during the London Conferences. Yunus Nadi Bey, who was as well in the Turkish delegation in London was deputy of Smyrna; he was the leader of the “Yeni Gün” that was the principal Kemalist organ. Doctor Ziya Nur, considered by some the father of the neo-Turkism, was the private advisor of Youssouf Kemal (he himself found a place in the Kemalist administration), the then-minister of foreign affairs. Ahmed Nessimi Bey, the minister of foreign affairs under Talaat’s government, had leading roles in the administration. Sami Bey was placed at the head of the postal and telegraphic services at Ankara. Furthermore many pan-Turkists like Youssouf Aktchoura, Aghaoghlou Ahmed, Husseinzade Ali, Ziya Gökalp, Köprülüzade Fuat, Mehmet Emin, Hamdullah Suphi, Ali Haidar, Halide Edip, Celal Nuri, Falih Rifki, and Yacub Kadri, among others, were introduced in the Kemalist administration.
The two district governors that had a leading role in the genocide, Kemal and Nusret who were executed by the Kemalist government, were considered as “national martyrs” their families received large sums of money. Nusret got a region, a school, and a street in Urfa in his name; in Bogazliyan, Kemal was honoured with the erection of his statue in the public square. Ankara’s government also allocated pensions for the families of those executed by Armenian “avengers,” such as the families of Talaat and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.
Now, back to Malta, Simsir in his work about Malta, with the aim of supporting his claim that the prisoners were released because there was no evidence, has referred to Curzon, but what Simsir ignores in his work is that Curzon later calls this decision a "great mistake," and he even admits that the rationale had been to support the release of the prisoners.
“The less we say about these people [the Turks detained at Malta] the better...I had to explain why we released the Turkish deportees from Malta skating over thin ice as quickly as I could. There would have been a row I think...The staunch belief among members [of Parliament is] that one British prisoner is worth a shipload of Turks, and so the exchange was excused.”
British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7882/E4425, folio 182
Curzon’s claims that they were released because there was no evidence, from his own admission, were just a reason among many to justify the decision (release of the prisoners), when in fact there was no justification whatsoever.
The claim that there was no evidence in US archives falls short when referring to the British ambassador in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1921, when he declared,
“The U.S. archives contain a large number of documents on Armenian deportations and massacres.”
FO 371/6503/E6311, folio 34
There never was any prosecution, pre-trial investigation, or interrogatory. So how is anyone to claim that any tribunal “proved” them not guilty, when there was no Malta tribunal in the first place? The Turkish military tribunal on the other hand had charged many prisoners as guilty before sending them to Malta. This is why many were sent there. The Ottomans were supposed to send the documents supporting their guilt. No document was ever sent, however; the Kemalists dissolved the tribunal and the files were stolen.
Another interesting point is how Simsir uses in his article Undersecretary W.S. Edmond’s quotations, when the individual in question was one of those recognising that the documents giving accounts of the guilt of the prisoners were in Istanbul. He was troubled by the fact that Turks would react very badly if criminals were hung because of their participations in the massacres of Armenians. He himself declared even at an early stages:
“Not one Turk in a thousand will think that any other Turk deserves to be hanged for massacring Christians.”
(Source: FO 371/4173/61185, folio 1270/278. Minutes recorded on April 22, 1919)
The British judge Lindsey Smith August 10 1921 declared:
"…a considerable amount of incriminating evidence was collected by the Turkish government but it is idle to expect to get it. The only alternative is therefore to retain them as hostages only and release them against British prisoners."
(Source: FO 371/6509/E10023 (folios 100-01))
Now, it is important to ask the question, “Where were those documents?” since it is often claimed by denialists that the allies had the capital under control and that after searching they had found no evidence. It is even more important to know where the documents are, since the Turkish military tribunal brought to light that such documents in the form of “secret orders” did exist:
“The massacre and destruction (taktil ve ifna) of the Armenians was executed through secret orders by men who ostensibly had the assignment to implement the law of deportation. (zahiren tehcir kanununu tatbik etmek). “
Source: Published on August 6, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3616, p.1, Trabzon Verdict, 22 May 1919
This reference in the military tribunal refers to secret orders; references about those signed orders are abundant in the transcripts of the military tribunal published in the Ottoman Law gazette "Takvimi Vekâyi"
“The documents, personally signed by the defendants, confirm the fact that the gendarmes escorted the deportee convoys for purpose of massacre. There can be no doubt and hesitation about this. (maksadi ... taktili oldugundan süphe ve tereddüt birakmadigindan). “
Source: Published on August 7, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3617, p.2, Yozgat Verdict, 8 April 1919
On 10 February 1919, British High Commissioner, Admiral Calthorpe sent to London reports from the British intelligence agency, from where the Turkish Public security official Mr. Aziz in charge of Interior Ministry's wartime archives declares:
“Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents.”
Source: British Foreign Office Archives. FO371/4172/31307, folio 385.
Tunaya relying on Ittihad's Secretary-General Midhat's testimony writes:
“The documents of Ittihad party were crammed into a suitcase by Dr. Behaeddin Sakir after they had been removed from the party headquarters by Dr. Nazim. The suicase was taken to home of attorney Ramiz, Sakir's brother-in-law.”
Source: Tunaya, T.Z. "Türkiyede siyasal partiler, Vol. 2, 2nd ed. Istanbul: Hürriyet Vakfi publications. p. 96, n.16.
The Turkish press reported in December 1918 ("Aksam," 12 Dec. 1918; "Tasviri Efkâr," 13 Dec. 1918) that when the police raided Ramiz’ homes, they found documents that were still intact and handed these documents to the Martial-court. Following the dissolution of the martial-court the documents left were never handed to the British like promised. Mr. Aziz, contrary to the promises he had made, never handed those documents to them.
It must be noted here that Djemal's bureau's Deputy Director stated that, before Djemal, flight from Istanbul:
“...some of his files [containing] official documents were left in the custody of Syfi, one of his men, who out of fear burned them. “
Source: Atay, F.R. "Çankaya." Istanbul: Sena. pp. 127-128
The then minister of education Midhat Shukru…
“…made most of the CUP documents relative to Armenians disapper.”
(Source: FO 371/6500 p.480)
The documents incriminating some of the prisoners in Malta that the British were able to locate in Istanbul were reported disappearing. And the Nationalist government was suspected of being the responsible.
“…disappearance of documents incriminating certain persons …saying that the matter has been arranged by local Nationalist leaders.”
(Source: Weekly Summary, March 4, 1920, British Embassy publication)
Other references to the destruction of those documents could be found in Aydemir’s work, where he writes:
“Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found. “
Source: Aydemir, S.S. "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa." Vol. 3, 1914-1922. Istanbul: Remzi. p. 493
It is evident when referring to those pieces of references that the allies had no access to the documents contrary to what is claimed by denialists. A telegram ordering the destruction of telegrams, from the Turkish Interior Minister to the provincial governor at Ayintab, was intercepted by the General Headquarters of the British Army's Egyptian Expeditionary force on 24 January 1919.
“Burn originals of official telegrams since mobilisation on files of district. “
(Source: FO371/4174/15450)
On 17 June 1919 the Turkish foreign Minister Safa protested to the British High Commissioner regarding British intrusions by trying to examine documents, and finally answered that such an intrusion will be unsuccessful, because the Diyarbekir-based Director of Telegraphic Service sent a circular telegram ordering to destroy these documents. Admiral Calthrope reported to London after this message:
“…attention to the tenor of this note which treats as a mere matter of office routine such an important matter as the proposed destruction of documents relating to the period of deportations, massacres, and the activities of the Turkish authorities during the war. “
(source; FO371/4174/102551)
The British, facing the destruction of the documents, in a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, declared from the British Military Intelligence Bureau:
“…the disappearance of documents incriminating ... Ittihadist. Talking of Rauf: he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa.” [source: FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592]
Karay, who in 1919 was the General Director of Telegraphic Service in Turkey, wrote that Mehmet Emin, his predecessor, had sent orders to all principal telegraph centres in the country, directing them to:
“…destroy all official papers, the originals and copies of all telegrams. “
(Karay, R.H. Minelbab lelmihrab, Istanbul: Inkilâp and Aka, p. 221)
Post minister Hüseyin Hasim admitted ordering the destruction of telegrams in 3 June 1919:
“…all military telegrams burned on orders from the War Office.” [source: "Takvimi Vekayi." No. 3573, 12 June 1919]
From these Turkish and British evidences, the present Turkish documents relating to the Armenian massacres are either forged or manipulated, because the Turkish authorities, in an attempt to deny the Armenian genocide, use documents that according to their own sources should have been destroyed. If in fact they were destroyed, then the documents the Turkish government presents are "reconstitutions" and more probably "forged," invalid in court of law.
Raphael Lemkin, Lawyer, and the inventor of the word “Genocide,” refers to the prisoners of Malta in one of his writings.
“In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians ... After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta. The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?
“I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture.... I decided to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations.
“A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide Ed.] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved? . . . The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians.”
[Source: With permission of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox, and Tilden Foundations.]
After this basic attempt to analyse the Malta cases, one can find surprising the fact that any denialist could still claim that there was a Malta tribunal, or that prisoners were released because of lack of evidence or, even worse, that the allies had access to every document yet had found nothing. Because even after all the precaution the Turks took to hide the fact of the Armenian genocide, if one were to research this case honestly and without bias and compare it with, for instance, the Nuremberg tribunal, the researcher would quickly realise that even with all those forgeries from the part of the Turkish republic, after all those manipulations, and after all the destruction of files, one can still find that the evidence found in the official Ottoman Law gazette will without doubt show us that what the Ottoman Armenians have gone through was in fact an extermination, and those evidences by their quality show the intent more so than those used during the Nuremberg tribunal used to charge NAZI criminals.
One still wonders, and will keep wondering. Why going at these lengths to destroy those documents? Why did the Ottoman refuse to hand them to the British as promised? Why would the Kemalist government dissolve the tribunal? What were they hiding?
So let us ask this question again: Was there a Malta tribunal? No! There never was any Malta tribunal! Were the prisoners of Malta released because of lack of evidences? No! They were not, for Curzon’s admission shows us that this was not the case. Had the Allies access to every document they wanted when they were “occupying” the capital? No! Not only that was not the case, but even when using Ottoman Turkish documents, we have to conclude that even such documents show us that the Allies were unable to have access to such documents.
This peripheral analysis of historical records points us to a fact, the fact being that there never was any Malta tribunal and not only this but that the prisoners kept in Malta were not released because of lack of “proof.” This short essay shows us that the prisoners were released to be exchanged with British prisoners, as well as to not obfuscate the new nationalist power in place. And, finally, the British released those prisoners after having the guarantee that they would be put on trial in Ankara. Furthermore, not all prisoners were released. The British refused to release about 20 among them; as a result they succeeded in escaping by the help of the Kemalist. The use of the Malta case by apologists of the Armenian genocide is one more example of the apologist’s paradox. On the one hand the denialists reject the Turkish military tribunal, because they claim that it was a kangaroo tribunal set by the Allies; on the other hand they use the release of Turkish prisoners by the Allies as evidence that there was no genocide. If Malta prisoners were to be charged, the denialists will claim that the court charging them was set by the Allies, therefore not credible, whereas on the other hand, if the court in question were to release them, the same denialists will use this release as a “proof” that there was no genocide. In this case, there never was any Malta tribunal in the first place, so the denialist’s selective portrayal makes us believe there was one. The entire denialist methodology uses the apologist paradox. The heart of this paradox works like this:
Case A, Evidence A forgery Case B, Evidence A not forgery
Let us examine case A. If evidence A is forgery, it is not an evidence. No further examination is necessary.
Let us now examine case B. If Evidence A is not forgery, it does not support the theses of genocide, so it isn’t an evidence to support the genocide. Therefore there is no evidence at all.
Those few lines are at the heart of the denialist methodology whereby they will first try to reject an evidence by trying to show it as forgery. If they are able, they will therefore conclude that this evidence is not an evidence. If on the other hand they are not able to show the evidence as forgery, they will try to give another meaning to the evidence, do everything to twist it, and finally conclude that even if it is not forgery, it does not support anything, therefore it is not an evidence. From this paradox, there can not be any evidence supporting the genocide, because the two theses lead to the same conclusion. No genocide. Fad (ix) 15:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Their bandits and support for Russian army led to deportations. You need to be put your bias aside and be fair. Read about the other side of the story a little bit from the sources of the other side.
Make your own judgement. There are a lot of people who didn't suffer from this, I personally had 3 Armenian classmates in college in Istanbul.
When people revolt, it is hard to identify who does that. Measures are taken against everyone. Imagine a curfew. It is for the entire population in the area, not revolutionaries only. Deportations were necessary. Consequences were sad.
Wikipedia needs some of the pages changed especially the ones that try to claim that Russian-Armenian alliance never existed.
Quoting "Unlike the Armenians, the Jewish population of Germany and Europe did not agitate for separation. Armenian scholars reply that Holocaust deniers make similar false claims, namely the Jews agitated to destroy Germany by allying with the Soviet Union to bring Bolshevism into Germany." Turkish claim is not a claim, it is a proven fact. Even Armenian sources don't deny."The Armenians under the Russian control devised a national congress at October of 1917.
The convention in Tiflis was concluded in September of 1917 with delagates from former Romanov realm (203), which 103 belonged to the Armenian Revolutionary Federation-Dashnaktsutyun."
read the rest on The First Armenian Republic Page. Here's another pointless sentence "Ottoman Empire troops under the 4th Army, which Mustafa Kemal had commanded the same army between 1916—1917, crossed the border in May 1918 and attacked Alexandropol" What does this mean? Yes, he was the commander of that army 1 year before. Why mention? What's the relevance? In another article by Armenian sources it is claimed that Mustafa Kemal was the commander while in reality Kazim Karabekir was the commander. Lots of things in Wikipedia about Armenian issues not just genocide are pure bias/distortion with intent to blame people who were even unrelated to what happened and they belong in POV forks at best.
Hello, I am sure this has been disussed ad nausem but here it is again. I wanted to insert ANY link into the Turkey article regarding the Armenian Genocide. I put it into the section "See Also" but its become an edit war, I know, big surprise. Is there a link to the ongoing contraversy regarding Armenian Genocide recognition (if not, can one be created)and would it be appropriate in the article on Turkey? Please don't rip me with that belongs on that talk page because I do think its a relevant discussion in here. Cheers! Tom 14:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Mesrob II was the honour guest in the conference in Erciyes University. His statements about the massacras may show us the right way in this discussion. As the religious leader of Armenians in Turkey he stated that both Armenians and Turks (in addition to foreign countries)were responsible in the events. I will provide the English text of his speech soon.-- Hattusili 17:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Mesrob II is nothing but a political lackey of the turkish government. He has no credibility. 30-40,000 quasi-Armenians do not need a Patriarchate anyhow, it should be abolished...Here's a good article written by the most uber liberal Armenian party: http://lalettre.hayway.org/protected/en/communique00010111.html -- Eupator 15:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
As you see I did not mention anything about his religious position because it means nothing to me but he is an important figure for Armenians living in Türkiye. In addition he said nothing about infedility. I do not understand why you are so biased even against Armenians.-- Hattusili 17:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Turkification - FrancisTyers 10:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted a very rude genocide denial attempt, the umpteenth of the denial attempts, that rewrote the intro and deleted all the photographs. Lately I have been busy with the minimization of another genocide, but I will get back to this very important history article in the future. gidonb 18:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Welcome - I am looking foreward to your contributions here...-- THOTH 02:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Charges against Orhan Pamuk were not brought by the government, they were brought by the Turkish Attorney General which is independent of government. I tried to revise it, but my changes were later removed.
In Turkey judicial system is independent of goverment as in most European Countries (Turkey's judicial system has been based on the Swiss Civil Code). Charges brought against Orhan Pamuk is not in the control of government, it's solely the decision of independent prosecutors. As it stands, what's written in the article with regard to Orhan Pamuk is factually wrong.
Charges against Orhan Pamuk were brought by "Hukukçular Birliği"(Jurists Association). It is a NGO and its leader is Kemal Kerinçsiz a right-wing activist. -- Hattusili 02:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep removing TAT link? Why are you afraid of it so much?
Why are you afraid of letting others decide it themselves? Truth hurts: TAT exposes the tall Armenian tale.
Hello there, I read the article and I believe that it is very biased against the Turks. I am not an expert on the subject but I know enough about the subject to know that the two strongest supporters of the so called genocide (British "Blue Book" and Ambassador Morgenthau's memoirs) have been rebuffed. I seriously think that this should be taken into consideration before producing an anti-Turkish article. -- 85.103.194.83 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you cannot accuse everyone as nationalists who doesn't admit armenian genocide and you cannot praise anyone as intellectual who admits.Everyone has thinking freedom.So that must be removed.This article already includes too much propaganda facts.-- Karaman 23:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Just what might it be that you have against the truth? -- THOTH 20:02, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The Position of Turkey should have a subsection listing Western Historians opposing genocide claims like Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), Roderic Davison (Central European University), J.C. Hurewitz (Columbia University), Guenter Lewy (University of Massachusetts), Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville), Stanford Shaw (retired UCLA Professor)...
The fact is that these scholars oppose genocide claims. As an anonymous person with no revealed credentials, your discrediting of these respected Princeton and Columbia professors has no bearing at all. You can question their motives all you want in another section but please don't twist the facts. Trying to discredit these respected individuals based on their grants is only a personal attack, it has no value. One should question quality of their work and this can be done only by other respected historians.
The above list is not exhaustive. Let me add a few more from that declaration: John Masson Smith, Jr. (UC Berkeley), James Stewart-Robinson (University of Michigan), Alan Fisher (Michigan Stale University), Thomas Naff (University of Pennsylvania), Rhoads Murphey (University of Birmingham). By the way, I want to point that these are all history professors unlike many so-called 'intellectuals' listed in the article.
What a ridiculous logic again. The fact is simple: If someone asks for an investigation then it means that they are not convinced that a genocide happened based on the evidence available. These scholars don't accept Armenian genocide claims, as simple as this.
These are brave scholars, they stand up and tell the truth in the face of powerful Armenian lobby. This requires courage. We all remember what happened to Stanford Shaw at UCLA. Armenian students burned his house threating his life. We all remember what happened to Heath Lowry at Princeton. Genocide obsessed Armenian lobby forced him to step down from his post through continuous harrasment.
By the way, where can I find the list historians supporting genocide claims excluding ethnic Armenians and the ones who work for Armenian funded institutions? I'm really curious. Can you give me a few names? I know Israel Charny. I want to read what others have to say.
Look who's talking. I was respectful so far in this conversation, but I understand that does not go a long way with you. Why don't you give a few names from that never ending list? Who's the top gun? The matter of the fact is, respected historians are against your thesis and the truth will stand.
I remember seeing on the PBS documentary that a contingent of Ottoman Armenians had defected to the Russian side, and Enver (rightly or wrongly) held them responsible for the defeat, should this not be highlighted as an important precursor? -- A.Garnet 20:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The only relevance of any of this is in presenting the fact that the CUP used any and every act of defiance by any Armenian as ammunition in its hate campaign against Armenains as a whole - as a people. Any excuse - no matter how fictional - would do - to justify their pre-planned actions to ethnically cleans Anatolia of those whom they thought were a thorn in the side of the Turks - who were constantly apealing to outside (Christian) powers for relief from Ottoman Tyranny - whom stood in the way of their Pan-Turkick designs...what would be mor eimportant would be to include a whole list of quotes from leading CUP thinkers and leaders concerning their beliefs on how Armenians were parasitic and/or tuberculor bodies bringing down the Turkish purity...and other racist denigrating viewpoints...all the while they scapegoated the problems of the Empire - their failure to properly govern, to right the economy as promissed and so on and so forth - all the while as they conspired to deprive Anatolia of its Armenians and steal their wealth...this is more relevant and factual...if Enver's deranged claims are to be included they should be included in the context that they were made...as ammunition - right or wrong - but just another excuse to justify the evil that they had already put into motion...-- THOTH 02:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
WWI started at 1914
Armenians rebel at 1915
Ottoman Empire deported Armenians
Armenian Genocide was claimed
Ottoman Military Court tried Armenian Genocide
British Court tried Armenian Genocide
Both courts couldn't find any evidence
The Repuclic of Turkey was founded
Turkey offered to make an Armenian-Turk comisson which will look at archives for the claim of Armenian Genocide
The Repuclic of Armenia didn't accept it
US Congress recognized the Armenian Genocide in a suspicious way without showing any evidence
Archive facts:
There wasn't any systematical murder of Armenians
1.3 million of the "death" 1.5 million Armenians were alive and the rest died because of famine and diseases and some of them were killed whent they fighting at war
So?..
--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
16:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are
concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with
governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades.
The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
[....] We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide—how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide. In preventing a conference on the Armenian Genocide from taking place at Bogacizi University in Istanbul on May 25, your government revealed its aversion to academic and intellectual freedom—a fundamental condition of democratic society.
[....]
Your suggestion to address the past cannot be effective if it deflects from addressing the present and the future. In order to engage in a useful dialog, we need to create the appropriate and conductive political environment. It is the responsibility of governments to develop bilateral relations and we do not have the right to delegate that responsibility to historians. That is why we have proposed and propose again that, without pre-conditions, we establish normal relations between our two countries. In that context, an intergovernmental commission can meet to discuss any and all outstanding issues between our two nations, with the aim of resolving them and coming to an understanding.
- Dear Prime Minister Erdogan,
- At its meeting last week, the Council of the American
Historical Association asked me to express to you its grave concern about the cancellation of the conference on “Ottoman Armenians during the Decline of the Empire: Issues of Scientific Responsibility and Democracy,” which was to be held at Bosphorus University on 25-27 May 2005.
- As I am sure you are aware, this conference was to
bring together Turkish scholars from several disciplines in order to discuss the fate of the Armenian minority in the last years of the Ottoman Empire. The conference was called off following a number of attacks by leading politicians, including Cemil Cicek, the Minister of Justice. So intense and inflammatory were these criticisms that the conference organizers were justifiably concerned about the security of the participants.
- The American Historical Association is the leading
organization of historians in the United States, with over 13,000 members, including a number of prominent scholars interested in Turkish and Ottoman history. Needless to say, the Association does not have a position on the fate of the Armenians, but it is deeply committed to free and open inquiry about historical issues, and especially about those issues that have been charged with political and ideological animosities. The May Conference was to have been a forum in which a variety of voices could have been heard. It is a grave misfortune, both for Turkey and for the world of historical scholarship, that political
pressures silenced these voices.
{{editsemiprotected}}
The first part of the request is about the addition of the word "claim" to the initial paragraph:
The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: [mɛts jɛˈʁɛrn]) – refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.[1] It was characterized by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one and a half million.[2][3][4][5][6] Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Ottoman Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[7][8][9]
Added version:
The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: [mɛts jɛˈʁɛrn]) – refers to the claim of deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.[1] It was characterized by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one and a half million.[2][3][4][5][6] Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Ottoman Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[7][8][9]
As can be seen from this link [7] too that there is no consensus on the issue. It has been proposed in the reliable source noticeboard that BBC is a completely reliable source concerning the nature of a issue. I propose the use of either "claim of" or "dispute of" in the introduction to make the article little bit more neutral.
The second request is concerning the claim that Western scholars put the number at 1.5 million:
While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 600,000 (per the modern Turkish state) to 1,500,000 (per Western scholars)[92] Argentina,[93] and other states). Encyclopædia Britannica references the research of Arnold J. Toynbee, an intelligence officer of the British Foreign Office, who estimated that 600,000 Armenians "died or were massacred during deportation" in the years 1915–1916.[94][95]
The reference used for 1.5 million figure which is numbered 92 in no way supports this. [8] What the source say is:
Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.
The 1.5 million figure is the accepted population number of Armenians before the WWI. They can be seen here: [9] There are only one or two Western sources that put a number above 1.5 million where one of them includes Armenians that are not in Ottoman Empire also(National Geographic). Though the National Geographic case is rather interesting as it gives a 2 million figure after the alleged incidents happened. The rest is claimed by Armenian sources only. So my proposed edition is simply to revert MarshallBagramyan's edit:
While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 600,000 (per the modern Turkish state) to 1,500,000 (per Armenian scholars[92], Argentina and other states[93]). Encyclopædia Britannica references the research of Arnold J. Toynbee, an intelligence officer of the British Foreign Office, who estimated that 600,000 Armenians "died or were massacred during deportation" in the years 1915–1916.[94][95]
Edited sections are in bold. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 18:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Can someone also tell me how to do that horizontal line after title of a section? Thank you. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 18:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Not done: The editsemiprotected template is intended to allow non-autoconfirmed editors a way to edit a semiprotected article using any autoconfirmed editor as a proxy. You are autoconfirmed. Please stop misusing this template. In answer to your question, that line is part of a level two section heading. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
19:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Edit request for adding the "claim" word is important for this article. Also there is something more, this article tells Denial of Armenian Genocide as something bad. Whereas it is simply a defense. There are evidences that may prove Armenian Genocide but there are also evidences that prove that it doesn't exist. And IAGS and this article doesn't care these evidences. IAGS is really pathetic, they passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide without fully considering the evidences and they lack historians-they are very important for telling the truth about sth happened in past. Besides it is certain that they only work for West. They didn't mention genocides that are done by Western nations. I also checked that letter. That letter has already reached a verdict that Armenian Genocide happened. It doesn't give Turkey a chance to defend itself and prove that it doesn't exist with history and archives. That's why Turkey didn't cooperate. This article also lacks information about Armenian-Turk relationships in Ottoman Empire and other aspects of this subject.--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
07:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Since it was requested I will show a reference which tells mainly everything I have written so far about the claim of Armenian Genocide. Look at it carefully,
[12]
--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
10:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Some historians:
It's apparent with the usual new accounts always popping in the same time each year that April 24 is near. The same list of alleged scholars claiming the event as being one big myth. :) However, there appear to be one difference this year, Erik Zurcher mysteriously disappeared from the list, God knows why. It appears that after multiple attempts by some to educate that Erik Zurcher was not a denier of the Armenian genocide, the revisionists finally removed him from the list. But this year, we have a new figure, Arend Jan Boekestijnwho suddenly becoming expert on the question, but at the same time compleatly ignoring most of the major references on the subject, present in his bibliography but his article is writen in a way as if he had no knowledge of their content. For instance, he dedicates an entire paragraph about the 'government' in the 'government' to tell us why it can be considered as a genocide, and on just the next chapter he give the reasons why this government in a government took this decision of elimination the Armenians, justifying it. The rest has been addressed on various media, scholars are placed in such a black and white list, when during the last five years a new consensus was formed, when scholars like Zurcher and even Dadrian have agreed as well as several Western scholars of Turkish descent. But what takes the prize here is probably the claim of lawyer who specializes in international law, which is about Bruice Fein, who is the lawyer of the Assembly of Turkish American Associations and is representing Gunter Lewy in the multi-million dollar lawsuit against the Southern Poverty Law Center. Bruce Fein is also Schmidt ( (R-OH)'s attorney, who is implicated in the Turkish spy scandal sparked from Sibel Edmonds testimonies. I could go on, countering every piece of distortionand falshood, but it's simply a waste of time, as all of this has little to do with the content of the article itself, which already contains the name of the proponents of the minority position, and what this position is all about. Note that even Justin McCarthy admitted that the event being a genocide is the majority position. I don't believe having anything else to add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigzagzag ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I request a change to the following section:
"It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides,[10][11][12] as scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians,[13] and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.[14] The word genocide[15] was coined in order to describe these events.[16]"
I propose the following:
"The so called Armenian genocide is widely proposed to have been one of the first modern genocides,[10][11][12] as some scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians,[13] and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.[14]. These claims are in turn also opposed and contradicted by many historians and experts making the subject highly disputable and the target for continuous debate."
As a refernce we can start with the list provided by Mr. heDarkLordSeth and continued with the list of scholars below.
I propose the removal of the sentence: "The word genocide[15] was coined in order to describe these events.[16]" It is clearly POV and related to a different era. I doubt the Armenians were in mind when they came up with the word.
Your third paragraph is not even worth replying to (fancy conspirationist theories, in the face of evidences that there is documented cases of bribing of scholars by Turkey, like in Lowry's cases), as for your last, Ottoman Departments are not apolitical, everyone knows that since Heath W. Lowry scandal. Simply put, it's like expecting any Armenologist to deny the Armenian genocide, when their work is based on Armenian texts. Take Edward J. Erickson for instance and read his aknowledgements page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigzagzag ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | There can be no doubt about the fact of [Armenian] genocide itself. In this sense, the denial of the Armenian genocide is very similar to the denial of the Holocaust of the Jews. | ” |
— Yair Auron, The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide. Transaction Publishers, 2000, p. 53. ISBN 0765808811. |
Did you read Arend Jan Boekestijn text? He's using the new concensus regarding the CUP which even most Western scholars of Turkish descent support. (Which is basically Zurcher argument) He is not denying it, he is justifying it. That list is mostly based on old books which were replaced. Even Gunter Lewy thesis mostly revolve around the body of works dating back over 15 years ago, with an update only on Dadrian work regarding German sources. That's not surprising, since he wrote the body of his work, around 15 years ago.
Dear Marshal refering to your statement: “Most of these "scholars" are obscure individuals who are deeply entwined with the Turkish state”. Currently the article relies also on 3rd party Christian Missionary sources, amateur off-hour historians, falsified documents, and people called Friends of the Armenian People + hearsay. You should have no issues accepting changes referenced by a list of distinguished scholars from institutions like Princeton, Harvard and UCLA. I have intentionally given you only foreign sources, but since this article has also used Armenian sources then we should also be able to use Turkish research. If we cannot do this then this article will remain POV and we cannot have a POV article. Hittit ( talk) 08:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Some more organisations that the Turkish state-agenda advocates should confront before trying to spread it in encyclopedias including Wiki:
The International Campaign to End Genocide
1.5 million Armenians. 3 million Ukrainians. 6 million Jews. 250,000 Gypsies. 6 million Slavs. 25 million Russians. 25 million Chinese. 1 million Ibos. 1.5 million Bengalis. 200,000 Guatemalans. 1.7 million Cambodians. 500,000 Indonesians. 200,000 East Timorese. 250,000 Burundians. 500,000 Ugandans. 2 million Sudanese. 800,000 Rwandans. 2 million North Koreans. 10,000 Kosovars. Genocides and other mass murders killed more people in the twentieth century than all the wars combined.
“Never again” has turned into “Again and again.” Again and again, the response to genocide has been too little and too late.
During the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust, the world’s response was denial.
[....]
With the following prominent organisations as signatories (no doubts that they did it based on scholars, is there?):
The following organizations are members of the International Campaign to End Genocide, chaired by Genocide Watch. The Campaign was founded in 1999, and was the first international genocide prevention coalition.
The Aegis Trust - Genocide Prevention Initiative: Nottinghamshire, United KingdomThe Anuak Justice Council: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada; Spokane, Washington, USA
The Alliance to Abolish Genocide: New York, NY; Washington, DC; Capetown, South Africa
CALDH - centro de acción legal para los derechos humanos: Guatemala City, Guatemala
The Cambodian Genocide Group: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
The Cambodian Genocide Project, Inc.: Washington, DC, USA
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies, University of Minnesota: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Center for Holocaust and Human Rights Studies at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University: New York, New York, USA
CHAK -- The Centre of Halabja against Anfalazation and Genocide of Kurds: London, United Kingdom; Stockholm, Sweden; Washington, DC, USA; Copenhagen, Denmark; Berlin, Germany; Ottawa, Canada; Oslo, Norway, The Hague, Netherlands; Helsinki, Finland
Genocide Alert, Germany
The Genocide Intervention Network: Swarthmore College, Pennsylvania; Washington, DC, USA
Genocide Studies Program - Yale University: New Haven, Connecticut, USA
Genocide Watch: Washington, D.C., USA; Capetown, South Africa)
INDICT: Baghdad, Iraq
INFORCE: Bournemouth, UK
The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide: Jerusalem, Israel
International Alert: London, United Kingdom
The International Crisis Group: Brussels, Belgium; New York, Washington, DC, USA; London, United Kingdom; Moscow, Russia
Minority Rights Group International: London, United Kingdom
The Montreal Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies: Montreal, Québec, Canada
Never Again: London, United Kingdom; Kigali, Rwanda; Canada; U.S.A.
The Plowshares Institute: Hartford, Connecticut, U.S.A., Capetown, South Africa
Prévention Génocides: Brussels, Belgium
The Remembering Rwanda Trust: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Survival International: London, UK; Milan, Italy; Madrid, Spain; Paris, France
TRIAL: Geneva, Switzerland
Ref: [25]. Anything more needed for the denialists to understand what "overwhelming" and "scholarly" is? I hope this would be accepted as a rhetoric question... Aregakn ( talk) 22:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref: [26] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montyofarabia ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
Why does he get to make changes, he has a biased view on this topic, this is NOT FAIR!!!!
Impratial? Are you kidding? This site has been hijacked, and the hijcacking is being enforced by partially blocking it. This is turning out to be a big farce!!! 83.77.132.154 14:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide came into force in 1950 and it is not applicable for the events before this date. legally we can't call this event as Genocide. And please do not forget that in 1915 Turkish and Kurdish civilians were also killed by Armenian forcesç for the full text of the treaty please visit: [2]-- Hattusili 19:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Under the Rome Statue of the International Criminal Court, genocide can be decided by legal principles or by a court of justice. You are right my link is bad I will soon correct it.-- Hattusili 18:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
It is HIGHLY LIKELY that Lutherian is most or all of those IPs. It is UNLIKELY that any of them are Shelby28. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 20:12, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Nice article, but what is the Armenian name for the genocide? D iyako Talk + 12:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
We just call it the Armenian Genocide.
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 11:32, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Also the article needs more and more images [3]. but of course images in public domain. D iyako Talk + 12:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
These need to go. See Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words.
- FrancisTyers 16:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we work on this first? Fad (ix) 17:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
On the list of countries that recognize the Armenian Genocide, I saw Bulgaria. What is the rationale of having Bulgaria on that list, since according to this http://www.arminfo.am/news_250206_2.shtml article, the resolution has been submitted to the Bulgarian Parliament.-- Moosh88 00:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Please keep your arguments to the arguments page. As the notice at the top of the page shows, any non-editorial comments may be moved there without further notice. Remember, this is a talk page for a Wikipedia article, not a soapbox. That goes for both sides of the dispute. Please refrain from personal attacks and try and remain civil. - FrancisTyers 10:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
is an unofficial organization linked to terrorist PKK group as mentioned in their own website PKE Furthermore, its already mentioned in the "official recognition" section so adding it a second time serves absolutely no purpose! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.1.89.101 ( talk • contribs) 18:19, 27 March 2006.
Can someone double check whether that map is accurate. Having looked at the ANI list of Resolutions, Laws, and Declarations I cannot see Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria, Norway as recognising a genocide as the map (and this article) suggests. -- A.Garnet 17:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we should make another page about the Turkish thesis, to provide neutrality and place links between these two pages. Armenian Genocide (Turkish Thesis) -- Hattusili 12:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
"NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints" but this article does not fairly represent the opposition. We cannot request unprotection for this page because radical nationalists may ruin it all. so what should we do? -- Hattusili 13:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
-- Eupator 17:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is totally different from what we are argueing here, the Turkish side also have strong evidences about their claims so that an article about Armenian Issue should include their thesis. wikipedia has to be neutral in such issues. -- Hattusili 17:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As a side note, an article on Non-Armenian casualties during the Armenian Genocide would probably not fall under the definition of a POV fork. Providing the page did not duplicate information here and was restricted in scope. As far as I'm aware the main Turkish argument is that "lots of people not just Armenians died" so a page explaining that would probably be good. The page could then be linked from here using the {{ main}} template. Just a suggestion, feel free to shoot it down... - FrancisTyers 17:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
what about starting an entry about "Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915" or "Armenian armed operations and forced emigration" ? I think it can be a fair start. -- Hattusili 18:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment partially moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)] Wikipedia should not be allowed to be used as propoganda for hateful genociders - for those who perpetuate genocide through its denial. None of this would even be remotel;y allowable in a Holocaust article and this article should be no different. -- THOTH 19:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
You see, I have left this article for near a week I think and thought that things will settle down, but this is not what happened, visit any pages, or the Hereros, or the Khmer Rouge regime, the Holocaust, the Ukrainian famine, the Hereros genocide etc., etc., etc... and tell me if there is at least one other equivalent article that has given as much space or if any members there had as much patience as I had here.
No, no 'Turkish Casualties in Eastern Anatolia in 1915,' and the reason is obvious, very obvious. You can attempt to build a parallel page to this, it won't make it much encyclopedic. Why? Here some reasons why, the Ottoman records were dumping the entire Muslim population, no separation between the groups, in the East, the Kurds, the Circassians, etc... were the majority Muslim population, besides maybe Erzerum or some other places, whos majority Muslim population were Turk I think. Many Muslims died during WWI(millions of Germans died in World War II), but most of Muslim casulties happened starting with mid 1916, when already over 800,000 Armenians have died. Besides, there has been a war between the Arabs and Turks, between Kurdish revolutionaries and Turks, there has been Envers megalomany sending his army on the front to freeze in Winter, or the starving army in the East, and this as a result of the ministry of the war evacuation of the Armenians which deprived the East and amputating the food supply.
So, you see why you can't have a Turkish casulties page? Because Turks were not separated from other Muslims. Also, there was very few Turkish civilian casulties in 1915, Muslim casulties jumped upward in 1916, during which time the Eastern zones Armenian population was gone.
Does the Turkish government section not give enought space for your second proposition? Don't forget that when I have proposed this, there wasn't much space for the Turkish position, you don't expect to have nearly half of the spaces in the main article and another full for the Turkish position, do you? Fad (ix) 19:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
[comment moved to argument page. - FrancisTyers 20:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
you are so biased that you do not hesitate to use such terms against people who does not think lilke you.-- Hattusili 10:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[section moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 01:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think it was rovoam who vandalised this page. If he gets blocked he comes back on another IP address and these are the type of pages he vandalises. Be careful of him as he's the most dangerous and persistent vandal in all of wikipedia.
Thank you.
Micoolio101 07:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Are they not as important as the Jewish so their deaths are called a genocide instead of an holocaust? Or is the word holocaust used only for what happened to the Jews between 1939 - 1945?
[discussion moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 11:56, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
You can see the photos here I will be adding them to the article when the page gets unprotected-- CltFn 05:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Where is the moderation? Where is the logic? The way this article has been presented and discussed transcends personal biases, and is primarily meant to instill propaganda for both ends.The historical relevance of this article is horrendous, furthermore it does not provide the reader with the opportunity to gain a logical understanding on the Armenian or Turkish claims.Propaganda techniques, such as association (comparing the Holocaust to the Armenian Genocide claims) ruin any validity this article can have, and until this article is cleaned up it will remain a stain on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blasphemy ( talk • contribs)
I am compelled to agree with the above. This is an affront to anything remotely scholarly or historical. It is time you all accepted that the Armenian Genocide page on Wikipedia is a failed project, scrap it entirely and leave it to better qualified people to start again.
In a recent unrelated debate concerning the dispute between Britannica and a research group that stated Wikipedia is just as accurate, I challenged my opponent to present, following his claim that Wiki was full of nonsense, an article that was indeed full of nonsense. He directed me here and I promptly conceded defeat.
This statement is the intro is horseradish. Makes it seem like the Ottoman's were so kind as to "evacuate" the Armenians , for their own protection no doubt , and how unfortunate that the Armenians accidentaly died in the process.-- CltFn 04:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Folks, please discuss changes. Please also let me know when everyone has calmed down. (Be aware that the protection is not an endorsement of the current version.) -- Nlu ( talk) 05:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there has been little discussion in this article for most of April...so hash it out here and not on each others talk pages. I have to agree with the use of the word "deaths" over massacre but only because it is better English.-- MONGO 05:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
NPOV means taking all sides of an issue into consideration, no matter how accurate you see one side to be. Let me give you a good example of this - check out the Adana massacre page. It gives both the Armenian and the Turkish side. We may not see one side as the "truth", but that's not what NPOV is about, it's about neutrality. Calling the events of the Armenian Genocide "massacres" is POV. I really hope you understand what I'm saying. — Khoikhoi 04:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Any comment? Fad (ix) 16:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[moved to arguments page. - FrancisTyers 08:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the following links must be included in the article and the denial of the Armenian Genocide - includign attempts by Turks and such here to do so - must be presented in their proper light - as genocide denial and nothing more. -- THOTH 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Some links -
http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=27
http://users.ids.net/~gregan/ethics.html
http://ermeni.org/english/cleansingarchives.htm
http://www.gendercide.org/case_armenia.html
http://www.theforgotten.org/denial/
This link actually concerns Turkish affirmation of the Armenian Genocide (which also needs to be presented more comprehesively in the articel itself) -
-- THOTH 17:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
See for yourselves http://www.theforgotten.org/denial2005/slide.asp?image=4 85.101.153.17 23:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The article says that "The majority of the camps were situated near the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers", but neither "Iraq" nor "Syria" existed at this time (it should be something like "situated near what is now the Iraqi and Syrian frontiers"). Also, Dayr az-Zawr is on the "Euphrates" river, not the "europhites". The footnotes should be fixed as well to go to the correct number. Makgraf 03:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no 'Turkish affirmation of the Armenian genocide'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.184.62 ( talk • contribs) diff
Just to mention that there are at least two controversial POV pages on the same topic, Armenian Genocide and Turkish National Movement (apparently written by an Armenian nationalist) and Armenian allegations (a text dump from a government website cited here, by a Turkish nationalist). Both are badly written and I suggest merging any useful content into section 4 and 5 before they are removed, and maybe creating a new section to describe Armenians seeking acknowledgement/redress.
It may be necessary to go a bit deeper into the concept of genocide in general in order to justify the title to a more inclusive group. The genocide article refers to the definition in the 1946 Convention and the quote by Raphael Lemkin that also appears in Genocide (1981) by Leo Kuper. -- Cedders 11:51, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Fad (ix) 15:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In January 1919, 140 high-ranked Turkish government officials were taken into custody because of allegations about them on Armenian Genocide. They were taken to Malta. Things I'll mention are referred to as Malta Tribunal. Investigation ended in November 2, 1921. All of them were released due to lack of evidence. All the aforementioned documents were available before November 2, 1921. Toynbee and Bryce's book was even published by British government who did the investigation. At the time Ottoman archives were in Istanbul which was under British occupation. American archives were also examined. “There are in hands of Majesty’s government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.” BritishArchives. PRO—F. 0. 371/6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes Telegram No 176, dated March 31,1921.
Had you actually read the archive of this talk page, maybe you would see this has bee covered and being a pure fabrication.
The Malta Tribunal that never existed. The revisionists often fabricate a Malta tribunal that actually never took place.
Actually, there was only one Turkish searcher that really adventured in this subject. He published various works (Turkish and English(mostly the translation and reedition of the Turkish versions) about this topic, and it is Bilal N. Simsir. I will just quote the last words from his work: “The Deportees of Malta and the Armenian Question.”
“As a result, all detainees at Malta were released and repatriated without being brought before a Tribunal.”
Even he admit there was not Malta tribunal.
Denialists of the Armenian genocide often claim that a “Malta tribunal” was conducted by the British, and after investigations and prosecutions, the prisoners were released because of lack of “proof.” But according to historical records there never was any Malta tribunal; such lies are meant to fool the innocent reader into believing that the extermination of the Ottoman Armenians never occurred and in the same time to divert the attention from a real tribunal which concluded that, in reality, the Armenians were victims of extermination. In fact, the Turkish military tribunal brought evidence from Ottoman high officials that the Armenians were victim of a premeditated plan to annihilate them. The apologists of the genocide claim that the tribunal in question was set by the Allies and therefore not credible. Such denialists don’t realise that such a claim would just as well discredit the Nuremberg Tribunal that brought NAZI war criminals to be judged; because the Nuremberg Tribunal was conducted by the Allies, while the military tribunal was a Turkish tribunal, so, if a "Turkish" tribunal was controlled by the "invaders," so was the Nuremberg. And if, in fact, the documents presented during the Turkish tribunal were forged, one wonders why the Turkish government until today forbids access to them. If they are forged???, why the fear of making them public?
Additionally, what denialists fail to mention is that many of the prisoners of Malta were handed to the British officials after being convicted as guilty by the Turkish military tribunal; in fact, there was supposed to be two tribunals, the first one being a Turkish one to judge and send to Malta those being charged, and after the end of the same tribunal to provide to the British officials the documents that allowed them to charge the criminals sent to Malta.
The claim that Malta prisoners were taken without any selections is groundless when reviewing the files attached to each prisoner. One example here is the one of Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey.
Mustafa Abdul Halik Bey Malta No. 2800 Interned 7.6.20
Appointments:
“Vali of Bitlis, March 1914 to September 1915. Under Secretary of State, Ministry of the Interior. Vali of Aleppo October 1915 to April 1917 Brother in law of Talaat.
Lists:
His name appears on Lists VI and VII ( List VII is the F.O. List).
Arrests:
A. He was arrested by the Turkish Government on 9 March, 1919, not upon our suggestion. The charge was murder. On the Turkish prison list of 7 February, 1920, he is stated to have been released on bail; date not provided (probably some time between 20.9.19 and 7.2.20).
B. He was again arrested by the British Military Authorities on or about the 14 May, 1920.
Petitions: None to date, 25.2.21
Accusations:
5027/A/20. Through Mr. Ryan on 19th September 1919. Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, took part in the councils held at Erzurum to decide on the deportations and massacres of Armenians. These councils were presided over by Dr. Behaeddin Shakir, delegate of the Central C.U.P. (one of the Principal Eight); other members were Tashin Bey (a deportee), Vali of Erzurum; Muammer (a deportee), Vali of Sivas; and Djevdet (a deportee), Vali of Van.
5030/B/10. On September 26, 1919, Mrs. Sophie Varjabedian, a Bitlis refugee then at Haidar Pasha, c./o. Rev. B. Bedrossian, Bible House, Constantinople, writes accusing Mustafa Abdul Halik, Vali of Bitlis, of having carried away under his personal superintendence the safe from the American Mission in Bitlis. The safe contained her money and jewellery. Miss Chane, now at Erivan, reported this to Mrs. Varjabedian. She asks for the restoration of her property and gives a list.
Assistant High Commissioner approved the suggestion of making inquires at the United States Embassy but there is no record as to whether any action was taken.
5031/A/6. Name merely appears on a Bureau d'Information Armenien list of 30. 12.18, as the Vali of Aleppo, in connection with Marash massacres.
5035/C/178. On June 7th, 1919, Mrs. Ahisag Ahet Ahlahadian writes, through the A.C.R.N.E (American Committee, Relief in the Near East), saying that she is a Protestant Syrian of Bitlis and that all her relatives had been massacred in 1915 in Bitlis in spite of the fact that she had paid the Vali, Mustafa Abdul Halik, to the extent of LT 541 gold.
5036/48. A. Account by Sympat Kerkoyan of crimes committed by Mustafa Abdul Halik at Bitlis in 1915. Starving prisoners; massacring 200 to 300 at a time outside the town; ravishing and massacring the women; extorting and looting of Armenian property. The stench from putrefying bodies was so bad that Buheddin, Director of Health, Bitlis, received orders to have the bodies incinerated. Buheddin was in Aleppo in 1918. B. Also murder of Djerdjis Kerkoyan, brother of Sympat after Mustafa Abdul Halik had extorted his fortune on promising to spare his life. C. Mustafa Abdul Halik replaced Bekir Sami Bey (the "good" Vali, now a prominent Nationalist) at Aleppo on 4.10.15. There he gave orders for the deportation and killing of Sympat Kerkoyan. Thanks to Hadji Yehia Galib Bey, the defterdar (now the defterdar of Kastambol), Sympat reached Mossul alive. The above per Mr. Rizzo on 16.10.19.
5030/A/21. Statement by Sympat Kerkoyan, merchant of Bitlis dated 19.5.20. Bitlis May 1915 atrocities. Massacre of Kerkoyan's family; wife and three children; three brothers and their families. Kerkoyan's deportation to Mossul by the Vali of Aleppo; Mustafa Abdul Halik.
…”
This prisoner (Abdul Halik Bey) was not arrested without reason; from British archival records it is evident that Abdul Halik was present at the Council held in Erzurum to put in application the extermination measures. From the same British archival records, Cevdet the governor of Van, Tashin, Muammer, and Dr. Sakir were also present during that Council. The group was even called “all the very worst of criminals.” (Source: Report of September 19, 1919, Andrew Ryan, BFO 371/6501, pg 4, folder 540/40)
The British had even selected some of the prisoners that should, under no circumstances, be released, and about the four governors that planned and executed the eradication of the Armenians in Eastern Ottoman, after documenting their guilt they concluded, “whom we propose to retain to the last they are gravely implicated in the crimes of massacre.” (Source: BFO 371/6504, folders 136, 146. As well, BFO 371/6504/E10023)
But later the War Office implored Foreign Secretary Curzon to release the group in order to exchange them with the two British prisoners that the Kemalists took, Rawlinson and Campell.(Source: BFO 371/6504, E10411) By doing such Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) refused to honour the Exchange Agreement of March 16, 1921 that was excluding in the exchanges several Ittihadists that had a key role in the Armenian genocide. (Source: FO 371/6500/E3375 (folio 284/15)) In fact the new Foreign Minister Youssouf Kemal asked for the “all for all” exchange. (Source: FO 371/6509(folio 47)) But the British had still tried to impose the agreement and the promises given by Mustafa Kemal himself, more particularly regarding about 20 of the most criminals among them. First, Cevdet the governor of Van with another (they and some others were called “the most notorious members of the group”) escaped (source: FO 371/5091/E16080 (folio 85)); upon finding out about the escape the British Foreign Office responded that the two prisoners “have broken parole.” On September 6, 1921, 16 other Ittihadists excluded from the exchange as well were able to escape. Angry, the Foreign Office remarked, “how little Turkish sense of honor can be relied on.” (Source: FO 3071/6509/E10662 (folio 159))
The Turkish sociologist and publicist Yalman, who had secret discussions with many of the Ittihadists, has been himself detained at Malta and has stated that the anti-Armenian measures reflected a "policy of general extermination" to remove "the danger" to Turkey of "a dense Armenian population in the Eastern Provinces." (Source: A. E. Yalman, Turkey in the World War (New Haven, 1930), 220.
The British plan to send to justice more criminals was becoming more problematic by the end of September, 1919, when Sultan Damad Ferid's Cabinet was being dissolved slowly in the profit of the Kemalism. On November 17, 1919, the new High Commissioner Admiral de Robeck, told Curzon that
“…the present Turkish Government...[is] so dependent on the toleration of the organisers of the [Kemalist] National Movement that I feel it would be futile to ask for the arrest of any Turk accused of offences against Christians, even though he may be living openly in Constantinople...I do not consider it politically advisable to deport [to Malta] any more prisoners.”
(Source: BFO 371/4174/15672 1 (folios 523-24))
And later also noted:
“…the question of retribution for the deportations and massacres will be an element of venomous trouble in the life of each of the countries concerned.”
(Source: BFO 371/4174/136069 (folio 470))
During the 20’s, Lamb, the political-legal officer of the British High Commission at Istanbul, understanding the non-seriousness in the judging of the criminals detained in Malta, warned his superiors:
“Unless there is whole-hearted co-operation and will to act among the Allies, the trials will fall to the ground and the direct and indirect massacres of about one million Christians will get off unscathed.”
(Source: FO 371/6500/, W. 2178, appendix A( folio 385-118, 386-119), Aug. 11, 1920.)
One must not ignore that in addition to the fact that the prisoners were released because they were exchanged with British prisoners, as well the fact that it was advised to release them because the imperial government favored good relations with the Kemalists. Another major reason was responsible of the release of the prisoners, a reason that apologists have tried to keep under the carpet. On March 10, 1921, Ankara's Foreign Minister Bekir Sami assured the British that the prisoners being released would be judged in a court. Later officially on June 11, 1921, the Ankara government informed the British that when the Malta prisoners will be released in exchange of British prisoners:
“…those accused of crimes would be put on impartial trial at Ankara in the same way as German prisoners were being tried in Germany.”
(Source: FO 371/6499/E3110, p. 190; see also FO 371/5049/E6376, folio 187; A. Yalman, Turkey in My Time ( Norman, OK, 1956), 106.)
The British at the end had no reason to keep the prisoners anymore. By releasing them they scored many points. Firstly, the British prisoners would be released in exchange. Secondly they would not have to deal with what they viewed as “venomous trouble.” Thirdly, in the eyes of the Kemalists they would gain some respect which as a result would open the roads of economic exchanges. Lastly, why keep those prisoners and go through the trouble of judging them, when the Kemalists promised that those prisoners would be judged in Ankara?
It is true that many Ittihadist high ranked were judged by judicial proceedings in Izmir and Ankara. Among them were Halis Turgut who had escaped the prosecutions of the Turkish military tribunal previously, Ahmed Shükrü, Ismail Canbolat (the right hand of Talaat), Dr. Nazim, Yenibahçeli Nail, and Filibeli Hilmi (Dr. Shakir’s right hand). Some of the killed/condemned to death were brigands and military officials and soldiers used by the Ittihadists. One of those, Yahya Kaptan, was killed in July 1922 by unknown assassins. The rumour was that he had threatened Turkish officials with releasing state secrets if they were to carry investigations on him (he had a major role on the drowning into the sea of thousands of women and children). Topal Osman was killed by a military unit trying to capture him in March 1923. Halit (Deli) was killed in the Turkish parliament on February 9, 1925.
Even after those trials, the honesty of the Kemalist government could still be questioned, since many influential figures in the Young Turk government as well as pan-Turkists and Turanists were later introduced in the Kemalist administration. The Young Turk ex-minister of finances, Djavid Bey, was the nearest collaborator of Bekir Sami during the London Conferences. Yunus Nadi Bey, who was as well in the Turkish delegation in London was deputy of Smyrna; he was the leader of the “Yeni Gün” that was the principal Kemalist organ. Doctor Ziya Nur, considered by some the father of the neo-Turkism, was the private advisor of Youssouf Kemal (he himself found a place in the Kemalist administration), the then-minister of foreign affairs. Ahmed Nessimi Bey, the minister of foreign affairs under Talaat’s government, had leading roles in the administration. Sami Bey was placed at the head of the postal and telegraphic services at Ankara. Furthermore many pan-Turkists like Youssouf Aktchoura, Aghaoghlou Ahmed, Husseinzade Ali, Ziya Gökalp, Köprülüzade Fuat, Mehmet Emin, Hamdullah Suphi, Ali Haidar, Halide Edip, Celal Nuri, Falih Rifki, and Yacub Kadri, among others, were introduced in the Kemalist administration.
The two district governors that had a leading role in the genocide, Kemal and Nusret who were executed by the Kemalist government, were considered as “national martyrs” their families received large sums of money. Nusret got a region, a school, and a street in Urfa in his name; in Bogazliyan, Kemal was honoured with the erection of his statue in the public square. Ankara’s government also allocated pensions for the families of those executed by Armenian “avengers,” such as the families of Talaat and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.
Now, back to Malta, Simsir in his work about Malta, with the aim of supporting his claim that the prisoners were released because there was no evidence, has referred to Curzon, but what Simsir ignores in his work is that Curzon later calls this decision a "great mistake," and he even admits that the rationale had been to support the release of the prisoners.
“The less we say about these people [the Turks detained at Malta] the better...I had to explain why we released the Turkish deportees from Malta skating over thin ice as quickly as I could. There would have been a row I think...The staunch belief among members [of Parliament is] that one British prisoner is worth a shipload of Turks, and so the exchange was excused.”
British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7882/E4425, folio 182
Curzon’s claims that they were released because there was no evidence, from his own admission, were just a reason among many to justify the decision (release of the prisoners), when in fact there was no justification whatsoever.
The claim that there was no evidence in US archives falls short when referring to the British ambassador in Washington, D.C., on June 1, 1921, when he declared,
“The U.S. archives contain a large number of documents on Armenian deportations and massacres.”
FO 371/6503/E6311, folio 34
There never was any prosecution, pre-trial investigation, or interrogatory. So how is anyone to claim that any tribunal “proved” them not guilty, when there was no Malta tribunal in the first place? The Turkish military tribunal on the other hand had charged many prisoners as guilty before sending them to Malta. This is why many were sent there. The Ottomans were supposed to send the documents supporting their guilt. No document was ever sent, however; the Kemalists dissolved the tribunal and the files were stolen.
Another interesting point is how Simsir uses in his article Undersecretary W.S. Edmond’s quotations, when the individual in question was one of those recognising that the documents giving accounts of the guilt of the prisoners were in Istanbul. He was troubled by the fact that Turks would react very badly if criminals were hung because of their participations in the massacres of Armenians. He himself declared even at an early stages:
“Not one Turk in a thousand will think that any other Turk deserves to be hanged for massacring Christians.”
(Source: FO 371/4173/61185, folio 1270/278. Minutes recorded on April 22, 1919)
The British judge Lindsey Smith August 10 1921 declared:
"…a considerable amount of incriminating evidence was collected by the Turkish government but it is idle to expect to get it. The only alternative is therefore to retain them as hostages only and release them against British prisoners."
(Source: FO 371/6509/E10023 (folios 100-01))
Now, it is important to ask the question, “Where were those documents?” since it is often claimed by denialists that the allies had the capital under control and that after searching they had found no evidence. It is even more important to know where the documents are, since the Turkish military tribunal brought to light that such documents in the form of “secret orders” did exist:
“The massacre and destruction (taktil ve ifna) of the Armenians was executed through secret orders by men who ostensibly had the assignment to implement the law of deportation. (zahiren tehcir kanununu tatbik etmek). “
Source: Published on August 6, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3616, p.1, Trabzon Verdict, 22 May 1919
This reference in the military tribunal refers to secret orders; references about those signed orders are abundant in the transcripts of the military tribunal published in the Ottoman Law gazette "Takvimi Vekâyi"
“The documents, personally signed by the defendants, confirm the fact that the gendarmes escorted the deportee convoys for purpose of massacre. There can be no doubt and hesitation about this. (maksadi ... taktili oldugundan süphe ve tereddüt birakmadigindan). “
Source: Published on August 7, 1919 in "Takvimi Vekâyi" No. 3617, p.2, Yozgat Verdict, 8 April 1919
On 10 February 1919, British High Commissioner, Admiral Calthorpe sent to London reports from the British intelligence agency, from where the Turkish Public security official Mr. Aziz in charge of Interior Ministry's wartime archives declares:
“Just before the Armistice, officials had been going to the archives department at night and making clean sweep of most of the documents.”
Source: British Foreign Office Archives. FO371/4172/31307, folio 385.
Tunaya relying on Ittihad's Secretary-General Midhat's testimony writes:
“The documents of Ittihad party were crammed into a suitcase by Dr. Behaeddin Sakir after they had been removed from the party headquarters by Dr. Nazim. The suicase was taken to home of attorney Ramiz, Sakir's brother-in-law.”
Source: Tunaya, T.Z. "Türkiyede siyasal partiler, Vol. 2, 2nd ed. Istanbul: Hürriyet Vakfi publications. p. 96, n.16.
The Turkish press reported in December 1918 ("Aksam," 12 Dec. 1918; "Tasviri Efkâr," 13 Dec. 1918) that when the police raided Ramiz’ homes, they found documents that were still intact and handed these documents to the Martial-court. Following the dissolution of the martial-court the documents left were never handed to the British like promised. Mr. Aziz, contrary to the promises he had made, never handed those documents to them.
It must be noted here that Djemal's bureau's Deputy Director stated that, before Djemal, flight from Istanbul:
“...some of his files [containing] official documents were left in the custody of Syfi, one of his men, who out of fear burned them. “
Source: Atay, F.R. "Çankaya." Istanbul: Sena. pp. 127-128
The then minister of education Midhat Shukru…
“…made most of the CUP documents relative to Armenians disapper.”
(Source: FO 371/6500 p.480)
The documents incriminating some of the prisoners in Malta that the British were able to locate in Istanbul were reported disappearing. And the Nationalist government was suspected of being the responsible.
“…disappearance of documents incriminating certain persons …saying that the matter has been arranged by local Nationalist leaders.”
(Source: Weekly Summary, March 4, 1920, British Embassy publication)
Other references to the destruction of those documents could be found in Aydemir’s work, where he writes:
“Before the flight of the top Ittihadist leaders, Talat Pasa stopped by at the waterfront residence of one of his friends on the shore of Arnavudköy, depositing there suitcase of documents. It is said that the documents were burned in the basement's furnace. Indeed ... the documents and other papers of Ittihad's Central Committee are nowhere to be found. “
Source: Aydemir, S.S. "Makedonyadan Ortaasyaya Enver Pasa." Vol. 3, 1914-1922. Istanbul: Remzi. p. 493
It is evident when referring to those pieces of references that the allies had no access to the documents contrary to what is claimed by denialists. A telegram ordering the destruction of telegrams, from the Turkish Interior Minister to the provincial governor at Ayintab, was intercepted by the General Headquarters of the British Army's Egyptian Expeditionary force on 24 January 1919.
“Burn originals of official telegrams since mobilisation on files of district. “
(Source: FO371/4174/15450)
On 17 June 1919 the Turkish foreign Minister Safa protested to the British High Commissioner regarding British intrusions by trying to examine documents, and finally answered that such an intrusion will be unsuccessful, because the Diyarbekir-based Director of Telegraphic Service sent a circular telegram ordering to destroy these documents. Admiral Calthrope reported to London after this message:
“…attention to the tenor of this note which treats as a mere matter of office routine such an important matter as the proposed destruction of documents relating to the period of deportations, massacres, and the activities of the Turkish authorities during the war. “
(source; FO371/4174/102551)
The British, facing the destruction of the documents, in a weekly summary of intelligence report, dated 4 March 1920, declared from the British Military Intelligence Bureau:
“…the disappearance of documents incriminating ... Ittihadist. Talking of Rauf: he urged the destruction of incriminating documents. It is understood that Rauf had already arranged the disappearance of documentary material implicating himself and Enver Pasa.” [source: FO371/5166/E1782, Reports 575, 592]
Karay, who in 1919 was the General Director of Telegraphic Service in Turkey, wrote that Mehmet Emin, his predecessor, had sent orders to all principal telegraph centres in the country, directing them to:
“…destroy all official papers, the originals and copies of all telegrams. “
(Karay, R.H. Minelbab lelmihrab, Istanbul: Inkilâp and Aka, p. 221)
Post minister Hüseyin Hasim admitted ordering the destruction of telegrams in 3 June 1919:
“…all military telegrams burned on orders from the War Office.” [source: "Takvimi Vekayi." No. 3573, 12 June 1919]
From these Turkish and British evidences, the present Turkish documents relating to the Armenian massacres are either forged or manipulated, because the Turkish authorities, in an attempt to deny the Armenian genocide, use documents that according to their own sources should have been destroyed. If in fact they were destroyed, then the documents the Turkish government presents are "reconstitutions" and more probably "forged," invalid in court of law.
Raphael Lemkin, Lawyer, and the inventor of the word “Genocide,” refers to the prisoners of Malta in one of his writings.
“In 1915 the Germans occupied the city of W. and the entire area. I used this time to read more history, to study and to watch whether national, religious, or racial groups are being destroyed. The truth came out only after the war. In Turkey, more than 1,200,000 Armenians were put to death for no other reason than they were Christians ... After the end of the war, some 150 Turkish war criminals were arrested and interned by the British Government on the island of Malta. The Armenians sent a delegation to the peace conference in Versailles. They were demanding justice. Then one day, the delegation read in the newspapers that all Turkish war criminals were released. I was shocked. A nation was killed and the guilty persons were set free. Why is a man punished when he kills another man? Why is the killing of a million a lesser crime than the killing of a single individual?
“I identified myself more and more with the sufferings of the victims, whose numbers grew, as I continued my study of history. I understood that the function of memory is not only to register past events, but to stimulate human conscience. Soon contemporary examples of genocide followed, such as the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915. It became clear to me that the diversity of nations, religious groups and races is essential to civilization because every one of those groups has a mission to fulfill and a contribution to make in terms of culture.... I decided to become a lawyer and work for the outlawing of Genocide and for its prevention through the cooperation of nations.
“A bold plan was formulated in my mind. This consisted [of] obtaining the ratification by Turkey [of the proposed UN Convention on Genocide Ed.] among the first twenty founding nations. This would be an atonement for [the] genocide of the Armenians. But how could this be achieved? . . . The Turks are proud of their republican form of government and of progressive concepts, which helped them in replacing the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide convention must be put within the framework of social and international progress. I knew however that in this conversation both sides will have to avoid speaking about one thing, although it would be constantly in their minds: the Armenians.”
[Source: With permission of the Rare Books and Manuscripts Division, the New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox, and Tilden Foundations.]
After this basic attempt to analyse the Malta cases, one can find surprising the fact that any denialist could still claim that there was a Malta tribunal, or that prisoners were released because of lack of evidence or, even worse, that the allies had access to every document yet had found nothing. Because even after all the precaution the Turks took to hide the fact of the Armenian genocide, if one were to research this case honestly and without bias and compare it with, for instance, the Nuremberg tribunal, the researcher would quickly realise that even with all those forgeries from the part of the Turkish republic, after all those manipulations, and after all the destruction of files, one can still find that the evidence found in the official Ottoman Law gazette will without doubt show us that what the Ottoman Armenians have gone through was in fact an extermination, and those evidences by their quality show the intent more so than those used during the Nuremberg tribunal used to charge NAZI criminals.
One still wonders, and will keep wondering. Why going at these lengths to destroy those documents? Why did the Ottoman refuse to hand them to the British as promised? Why would the Kemalist government dissolve the tribunal? What were they hiding?
So let us ask this question again: Was there a Malta tribunal? No! There never was any Malta tribunal! Were the prisoners of Malta released because of lack of evidences? No! They were not, for Curzon’s admission shows us that this was not the case. Had the Allies access to every document they wanted when they were “occupying” the capital? No! Not only that was not the case, but even when using Ottoman Turkish documents, we have to conclude that even such documents show us that the Allies were unable to have access to such documents.
This peripheral analysis of historical records points us to a fact, the fact being that there never was any Malta tribunal and not only this but that the prisoners kept in Malta were not released because of lack of “proof.” This short essay shows us that the prisoners were released to be exchanged with British prisoners, as well as to not obfuscate the new nationalist power in place. And, finally, the British released those prisoners after having the guarantee that they would be put on trial in Ankara. Furthermore, not all prisoners were released. The British refused to release about 20 among them; as a result they succeeded in escaping by the help of the Kemalist. The use of the Malta case by apologists of the Armenian genocide is one more example of the apologist’s paradox. On the one hand the denialists reject the Turkish military tribunal, because they claim that it was a kangaroo tribunal set by the Allies; on the other hand they use the release of Turkish prisoners by the Allies as evidence that there was no genocide. If Malta prisoners were to be charged, the denialists will claim that the court charging them was set by the Allies, therefore not credible, whereas on the other hand, if the court in question were to release them, the same denialists will use this release as a “proof” that there was no genocide. In this case, there never was any Malta tribunal in the first place, so the denialist’s selective portrayal makes us believe there was one. The entire denialist methodology uses the apologist paradox. The heart of this paradox works like this:
Case A, Evidence A forgery Case B, Evidence A not forgery
Let us examine case A. If evidence A is forgery, it is not an evidence. No further examination is necessary.
Let us now examine case B. If Evidence A is not forgery, it does not support the theses of genocide, so it isn’t an evidence to support the genocide. Therefore there is no evidence at all.
Those few lines are at the heart of the denialist methodology whereby they will first try to reject an evidence by trying to show it as forgery. If they are able, they will therefore conclude that this evidence is not an evidence. If on the other hand they are not able to show the evidence as forgery, they will try to give another meaning to the evidence, do everything to twist it, and finally conclude that even if it is not forgery, it does not support anything, therefore it is not an evidence. From this paradox, there can not be any evidence supporting the genocide, because the two theses lead to the same conclusion. No genocide. Fad (ix) 15:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Their bandits and support for Russian army led to deportations. You need to be put your bias aside and be fair. Read about the other side of the story a little bit from the sources of the other side.
Make your own judgement. There are a lot of people who didn't suffer from this, I personally had 3 Armenian classmates in college in Istanbul.
When people revolt, it is hard to identify who does that. Measures are taken against everyone. Imagine a curfew. It is for the entire population in the area, not revolutionaries only. Deportations were necessary. Consequences were sad.
Wikipedia needs some of the pages changed especially the ones that try to claim that Russian-Armenian alliance never existed.
Quoting "Unlike the Armenians, the Jewish population of Germany and Europe did not agitate for separation. Armenian scholars reply that Holocaust deniers make similar false claims, namely the Jews agitated to destroy Germany by allying with the Soviet Union to bring Bolshevism into Germany." Turkish claim is not a claim, it is a proven fact. Even Armenian sources don't deny."The Armenians under the Russian control devised a national congress at October of 1917.
The convention in Tiflis was concluded in September of 1917 with delagates from former Romanov realm (203), which 103 belonged to the Armenian Revolutionary Federation-Dashnaktsutyun."
read the rest on The First Armenian Republic Page. Here's another pointless sentence "Ottoman Empire troops under the 4th Army, which Mustafa Kemal had commanded the same army between 1916—1917, crossed the border in May 1918 and attacked Alexandropol" What does this mean? Yes, he was the commander of that army 1 year before. Why mention? What's the relevance? In another article by Armenian sources it is claimed that Mustafa Kemal was the commander while in reality Kazim Karabekir was the commander. Lots of things in Wikipedia about Armenian issues not just genocide are pure bias/distortion with intent to blame people who were even unrelated to what happened and they belong in POV forks at best.
Hello, I am sure this has been disussed ad nausem but here it is again. I wanted to insert ANY link into the Turkey article regarding the Armenian Genocide. I put it into the section "See Also" but its become an edit war, I know, big surprise. Is there a link to the ongoing contraversy regarding Armenian Genocide recognition (if not, can one be created)and would it be appropriate in the article on Turkey? Please don't rip me with that belongs on that talk page because I do think its a relevant discussion in here. Cheers! Tom 14:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Mesrob II was the honour guest in the conference in Erciyes University. His statements about the massacras may show us the right way in this discussion. As the religious leader of Armenians in Turkey he stated that both Armenians and Turks (in addition to foreign countries)were responsible in the events. I will provide the English text of his speech soon.-- Hattusili 17:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Mesrob II is nothing but a political lackey of the turkish government. He has no credibility. 30-40,000 quasi-Armenians do not need a Patriarchate anyhow, it should be abolished...Here's a good article written by the most uber liberal Armenian party: http://lalettre.hayway.org/protected/en/communique00010111.html -- Eupator 15:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
As you see I did not mention anything about his religious position because it means nothing to me but he is an important figure for Armenians living in Türkiye. In addition he said nothing about infedility. I do not understand why you are so biased even against Armenians.-- Hattusili 17:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Turkification - FrancisTyers 10:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I just reverted a very rude genocide denial attempt, the umpteenth of the denial attempts, that rewrote the intro and deleted all the photographs. Lately I have been busy with the minimization of another genocide, but I will get back to this very important history article in the future. gidonb 18:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Welcome - I am looking foreward to your contributions here...-- THOTH 02:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Charges against Orhan Pamuk were not brought by the government, they were brought by the Turkish Attorney General which is independent of government. I tried to revise it, but my changes were later removed.
In Turkey judicial system is independent of goverment as in most European Countries (Turkey's judicial system has been based on the Swiss Civil Code). Charges brought against Orhan Pamuk is not in the control of government, it's solely the decision of independent prosecutors. As it stands, what's written in the article with regard to Orhan Pamuk is factually wrong.
Charges against Orhan Pamuk were brought by "Hukukçular Birliği"(Jurists Association). It is a NGO and its leader is Kemal Kerinçsiz a right-wing activist. -- Hattusili 02:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep removing TAT link? Why are you afraid of it so much?
Why are you afraid of letting others decide it themselves? Truth hurts: TAT exposes the tall Armenian tale.
Hello there, I read the article and I believe that it is very biased against the Turks. I am not an expert on the subject but I know enough about the subject to know that the two strongest supporters of the so called genocide (British "Blue Book" and Ambassador Morgenthau's memoirs) have been rebuffed. I seriously think that this should be taken into consideration before producing an anti-Turkish article. -- 85.103.194.83 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you cannot accuse everyone as nationalists who doesn't admit armenian genocide and you cannot praise anyone as intellectual who admits.Everyone has thinking freedom.So that must be removed.This article already includes too much propaganda facts.-- Karaman 23:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Just what might it be that you have against the truth? -- THOTH 20:02, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The Position of Turkey should have a subsection listing Western Historians opposing genocide claims like Bernard Lewis (Princeton University), Roderic Davison (Central European University), J.C. Hurewitz (Columbia University), Guenter Lewy (University of Massachusetts), Justin McCarthy (University of Louisville), Stanford Shaw (retired UCLA Professor)...
The fact is that these scholars oppose genocide claims. As an anonymous person with no revealed credentials, your discrediting of these respected Princeton and Columbia professors has no bearing at all. You can question their motives all you want in another section but please don't twist the facts. Trying to discredit these respected individuals based on their grants is only a personal attack, it has no value. One should question quality of their work and this can be done only by other respected historians.
The above list is not exhaustive. Let me add a few more from that declaration: John Masson Smith, Jr. (UC Berkeley), James Stewart-Robinson (University of Michigan), Alan Fisher (Michigan Stale University), Thomas Naff (University of Pennsylvania), Rhoads Murphey (University of Birmingham). By the way, I want to point that these are all history professors unlike many so-called 'intellectuals' listed in the article.
What a ridiculous logic again. The fact is simple: If someone asks for an investigation then it means that they are not convinced that a genocide happened based on the evidence available. These scholars don't accept Armenian genocide claims, as simple as this.
These are brave scholars, they stand up and tell the truth in the face of powerful Armenian lobby. This requires courage. We all remember what happened to Stanford Shaw at UCLA. Armenian students burned his house threating his life. We all remember what happened to Heath Lowry at Princeton. Genocide obsessed Armenian lobby forced him to step down from his post through continuous harrasment.
By the way, where can I find the list historians supporting genocide claims excluding ethnic Armenians and the ones who work for Armenian funded institutions? I'm really curious. Can you give me a few names? I know Israel Charny. I want to read what others have to say.
Look who's talking. I was respectful so far in this conversation, but I understand that does not go a long way with you. Why don't you give a few names from that never ending list? Who's the top gun? The matter of the fact is, respected historians are against your thesis and the truth will stand.
I remember seeing on the PBS documentary that a contingent of Ottoman Armenians had defected to the Russian side, and Enver (rightly or wrongly) held them responsible for the defeat, should this not be highlighted as an important precursor? -- A.Garnet 20:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The only relevance of any of this is in presenting the fact that the CUP used any and every act of defiance by any Armenian as ammunition in its hate campaign against Armenains as a whole - as a people. Any excuse - no matter how fictional - would do - to justify their pre-planned actions to ethnically cleans Anatolia of those whom they thought were a thorn in the side of the Turks - who were constantly apealing to outside (Christian) powers for relief from Ottoman Tyranny - whom stood in the way of their Pan-Turkick designs...what would be mor eimportant would be to include a whole list of quotes from leading CUP thinkers and leaders concerning their beliefs on how Armenians were parasitic and/or tuberculor bodies bringing down the Turkish purity...and other racist denigrating viewpoints...all the while they scapegoated the problems of the Empire - their failure to properly govern, to right the economy as promissed and so on and so forth - all the while as they conspired to deprive Anatolia of its Armenians and steal their wealth...this is more relevant and factual...if Enver's deranged claims are to be included they should be included in the context that they were made...as ammunition - right or wrong - but just another excuse to justify the evil that they had already put into motion...-- THOTH 02:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
WWI started at 1914
Armenians rebel at 1915
Ottoman Empire deported Armenians
Armenian Genocide was claimed
Ottoman Military Court tried Armenian Genocide
British Court tried Armenian Genocide
Both courts couldn't find any evidence
The Repuclic of Turkey was founded
Turkey offered to make an Armenian-Turk comisson which will look at archives for the claim of Armenian Genocide
The Repuclic of Armenia didn't accept it
US Congress recognized the Armenian Genocide in a suspicious way without showing any evidence
Archive facts:
There wasn't any systematical murder of Armenians
1.3 million of the "death" 1.5 million Armenians were alive and the rest died because of famine and diseases and some of them were killed whent they fighting at war
So?..
--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
16:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are
concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with
governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades.
The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
[....] We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide—how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide. In preventing a conference on the Armenian Genocide from taking place at Bogacizi University in Istanbul on May 25, your government revealed its aversion to academic and intellectual freedom—a fundamental condition of democratic society.
[....]
Your suggestion to address the past cannot be effective if it deflects from addressing the present and the future. In order to engage in a useful dialog, we need to create the appropriate and conductive political environment. It is the responsibility of governments to develop bilateral relations and we do not have the right to delegate that responsibility to historians. That is why we have proposed and propose again that, without pre-conditions, we establish normal relations between our two countries. In that context, an intergovernmental commission can meet to discuss any and all outstanding issues between our two nations, with the aim of resolving them and coming to an understanding.
- Dear Prime Minister Erdogan,
- At its meeting last week, the Council of the American
Historical Association asked me to express to you its grave concern about the cancellation of the conference on “Ottoman Armenians during the Decline of the Empire: Issues of Scientific Responsibility and Democracy,” which was to be held at Bosphorus University on 25-27 May 2005.
- As I am sure you are aware, this conference was to
bring together Turkish scholars from several disciplines in order to discuss the fate of the Armenian minority in the last years of the Ottoman Empire. The conference was called off following a number of attacks by leading politicians, including Cemil Cicek, the Minister of Justice. So intense and inflammatory were these criticisms that the conference organizers were justifiably concerned about the security of the participants.
- The American Historical Association is the leading
organization of historians in the United States, with over 13,000 members, including a number of prominent scholars interested in Turkish and Ottoman history. Needless to say, the Association does not have a position on the fate of the Armenians, but it is deeply committed to free and open inquiry about historical issues, and especially about those issues that have been charged with political and ideological animosities. The May Conference was to have been a forum in which a variety of voices could have been heard. It is a grave misfortune, both for Turkey and for the world of historical scholarship, that political
pressures silenced these voices.
{{editsemiprotected}}
The first part of the request is about the addition of the word "claim" to the initial paragraph:
The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: [mɛts jɛˈʁɛrn]) – refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.[1] It was characterized by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one and a half million.[2][3][4][5][6] Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Ottoman Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[7][8][9]
Added version:
The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, translit.: Hayoc’ C’eġaspanowt’yown; Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, as the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն, Meç Eġeṙn, Armenian pronunciation: [mɛts jɛˈʁɛrn]) – refers to the claim of deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I.[1] It was characterized by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one and a half million.[2][3][4][5][6] Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Ottoman Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider those events to be part of the same policy of extermination.[7][8][9]
As can be seen from this link [7] too that there is no consensus on the issue. It has been proposed in the reliable source noticeboard that BBC is a completely reliable source concerning the nature of a issue. I propose the use of either "claim of" or "dispute of" in the introduction to make the article little bit more neutral.
The second request is concerning the claim that Western scholars put the number at 1.5 million:
While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 600,000 (per the modern Turkish state) to 1,500,000 (per Western scholars)[92] Argentina,[93] and other states). Encyclopædia Britannica references the research of Arnold J. Toynbee, an intelligence officer of the British Foreign Office, who estimated that 600,000 Armenians "died or were massacred during deportation" in the years 1915–1916.[94][95]
The reference used for 1.5 million figure which is numbered 92 in no way supports this. [8] What the source say is:
Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.
The 1.5 million figure is the accepted population number of Armenians before the WWI. They can be seen here: [9] There are only one or two Western sources that put a number above 1.5 million where one of them includes Armenians that are not in Ottoman Empire also(National Geographic). Though the National Geographic case is rather interesting as it gives a 2 million figure after the alleged incidents happened. The rest is claimed by Armenian sources only. So my proposed edition is simply to revert MarshallBagramyan's edit:
While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 600,000 (per the modern Turkish state) to 1,500,000 (per Armenian scholars[92], Argentina and other states[93]). Encyclopædia Britannica references the research of Arnold J. Toynbee, an intelligence officer of the British Foreign Office, who estimated that 600,000 Armenians "died or were massacred during deportation" in the years 1915–1916.[94][95]
Edited sections are in bold. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 18:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Can someone also tell me how to do that horizontal line after title of a section? Thank you. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 18:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Not done: The editsemiprotected template is intended to allow non-autoconfirmed editors a way to edit a semiprotected article using any autoconfirmed editor as a proxy. You are autoconfirmed. Please stop misusing this template. In answer to your question, that line is part of a level two section heading. Thanks,
Celestra (
talk)
19:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Edit request for adding the "claim" word is important for this article. Also there is something more, this article tells Denial of Armenian Genocide as something bad. Whereas it is simply a defense. There are evidences that may prove Armenian Genocide but there are also evidences that prove that it doesn't exist. And IAGS and this article doesn't care these evidences. IAGS is really pathetic, they passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide without fully considering the evidences and they lack historians-they are very important for telling the truth about sth happened in past. Besides it is certain that they only work for West. They didn't mention genocides that are done by Western nations. I also checked that letter. That letter has already reached a verdict that Armenian Genocide happened. It doesn't give Turkey a chance to defend itself and prove that it doesn't exist with history and archives. That's why Turkey didn't cooperate. This article also lacks information about Armenian-Turk relationships in Ottoman Empire and other aspects of this subject.--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
07:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Since it was requested I will show a reference which tells mainly everything I have written so far about the claim of Armenian Genocide. Look at it carefully,
[12]
--
Lonewolf94 (
talk)
10:28, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Some historians:
It's apparent with the usual new accounts always popping in the same time each year that April 24 is near. The same list of alleged scholars claiming the event as being one big myth. :) However, there appear to be one difference this year, Erik Zurcher mysteriously disappeared from the list, God knows why. It appears that after multiple attempts by some to educate that Erik Zurcher was not a denier of the Armenian genocide, the revisionists finally removed him from the list. But this year, we have a new figure, Arend Jan Boekestijnwho suddenly becoming expert on the question, but at the same time compleatly ignoring most of the major references on the subject, present in his bibliography but his article is writen in a way as if he had no knowledge of their content. For instance, he dedicates an entire paragraph about the 'government' in the 'government' to tell us why it can be considered as a genocide, and on just the next chapter he give the reasons why this government in a government took this decision of elimination the Armenians, justifying it. The rest has been addressed on various media, scholars are placed in such a black and white list, when during the last five years a new consensus was formed, when scholars like Zurcher and even Dadrian have agreed as well as several Western scholars of Turkish descent. But what takes the prize here is probably the claim of lawyer who specializes in international law, which is about Bruice Fein, who is the lawyer of the Assembly of Turkish American Associations and is representing Gunter Lewy in the multi-million dollar lawsuit against the Southern Poverty Law Center. Bruce Fein is also Schmidt ( (R-OH)'s attorney, who is implicated in the Turkish spy scandal sparked from Sibel Edmonds testimonies. I could go on, countering every piece of distortionand falshood, but it's simply a waste of time, as all of this has little to do with the content of the article itself, which already contains the name of the proponents of the minority position, and what this position is all about. Note that even Justin McCarthy admitted that the event being a genocide is the majority position. I don't believe having anything else to add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigzagzag ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I request a change to the following section:
"It is widely acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides,[10][11][12] as scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians,[13] and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.[14] The word genocide[15] was coined in order to describe these events.[16]"
I propose the following:
"The so called Armenian genocide is widely proposed to have been one of the first modern genocides,[10][11][12] as some scholars point to the systematic, organized manner in which the killings were carried out to eliminate the Armenians,[13] and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.[14]. These claims are in turn also opposed and contradicted by many historians and experts making the subject highly disputable and the target for continuous debate."
As a refernce we can start with the list provided by Mr. heDarkLordSeth and continued with the list of scholars below.
I propose the removal of the sentence: "The word genocide[15] was coined in order to describe these events.[16]" It is clearly POV and related to a different era. I doubt the Armenians were in mind when they came up with the word.
Your third paragraph is not even worth replying to (fancy conspirationist theories, in the face of evidences that there is documented cases of bribing of scholars by Turkey, like in Lowry's cases), as for your last, Ottoman Departments are not apolitical, everyone knows that since Heath W. Lowry scandal. Simply put, it's like expecting any Armenologist to deny the Armenian genocide, when their work is based on Armenian texts. Take Edward J. Erickson for instance and read his aknowledgements page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigzagzag ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
“ | There can be no doubt about the fact of [Armenian] genocide itself. In this sense, the denial of the Armenian genocide is very similar to the denial of the Holocaust of the Jews. | ” |
— Yair Auron, The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide. Transaction Publishers, 2000, p. 53. ISBN 0765808811. |
Did you read Arend Jan Boekestijn text? He's using the new concensus regarding the CUP which even most Western scholars of Turkish descent support. (Which is basically Zurcher argument) He is not denying it, he is justifying it. That list is mostly based on old books which were replaced. Even Gunter Lewy thesis mostly revolve around the body of works dating back over 15 years ago, with an update only on Dadrian work regarding German sources. That's not surprising, since he wrote the body of his work, around 15 years ago.
Dear Marshal refering to your statement: “Most of these "scholars" are obscure individuals who are deeply entwined with the Turkish state”. Currently the article relies also on 3rd party Christian Missionary sources, amateur off-hour historians, falsified documents, and people called Friends of the Armenian People + hearsay. You should have no issues accepting changes referenced by a list of distinguished scholars from institutions like Princeton, Harvard and UCLA. I have intentionally given you only foreign sources, but since this article has also used Armenian sources then we should also be able to use Turkish research. If we cannot do this then this article will remain POV and we cannot have a POV article. Hittit ( talk) 08:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Some more organisations that the Turkish state-agenda advocates should confront before trying to spread it in encyclopedias including Wiki:
The International Campaign to End Genocide
1.5 million Armenians. 3 million Ukrainians. 6 million Jews. 250,000 Gypsies. 6 million Slavs. 25 million Russians. 25 million Chinese. 1 million Ibos. 1.5 million Bengalis. 200,000 Guatemalans. 1.7 million Cambodians. 500,000 Indonesians. 200,000 East Timorese. 250,000 Burundians. 500,000 Ugandans. 2 million Sudanese. 800,000 Rwandans. 2 million North Koreans. 10,000 Kosovars. Genocides and other mass murders killed more people in the twentieth century than all the wars combined.
“Never again” has turned into “Again and again.” Again and again, the response to genocide has been too little and too late.
During the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust, the world’s response was denial.
[....]
With the following prominent organisations as signatories (no doubts that they did it based on scholars, is there?):
The following organizations are members of the International Campaign to End Genocide, chaired by Genocide Watch. The Campaign was founded in 1999, and was the first international genocide prevention coalition.
The Aegis Trust - Genocide Prevention Initiative: Nottinghamshire, United KingdomThe Anuak Justice Council: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada; Spokane, Washington, USA
The Alliance to Abolish Genocide: New York, NY; Washington, DC; Capetown, South Africa
CALDH - centro de acción legal para los derechos humanos: Guatemala City, Guatemala
The Cambodian Genocide Group: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
The Cambodian Genocide Project, Inc.: Washington, DC, USA
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies, University of Minnesota: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Center for Holocaust and Human Rights Studies at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, Yeshiva University: New York, New York, USA
CHAK -- The Centre of Halabja against Anfalazation and Genocide of Kurds: London, United Kingdom; Stockholm, Sweden; Washington, DC, USA; Copenhagen, Denmark; Berlin, Germany; Ottawa, Canada; Oslo, Norway, The Hague, Netherlands; Helsinki, Finland
Genocide Alert, Germany
The Genocide Intervention Network: Swarthmore College, Pennsylvania; Washington, DC, USA
Genocide Studies Program - Yale University: New Haven, Connecticut, USA
Genocide Watch: Washington, D.C., USA; Capetown, South Africa)
INDICT: Baghdad, Iraq
INFORCE: Bournemouth, UK
The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide: Jerusalem, Israel
International Alert: London, United Kingdom
The International Crisis Group: Brussels, Belgium; New York, Washington, DC, USA; London, United Kingdom; Moscow, Russia
Minority Rights Group International: London, United Kingdom
The Montreal Institute for Genocide and Human Rights Studies: Montreal, Québec, Canada
Never Again: London, United Kingdom; Kigali, Rwanda; Canada; U.S.A.
The Plowshares Institute: Hartford, Connecticut, U.S.A., Capetown, South Africa
Prévention Génocides: Brussels, Belgium
The Remembering Rwanda Trust: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Survival International: London, UK; Milan, Italy; Madrid, Spain; Paris, France
TRIAL: Geneva, Switzerland
Ref: [25]. Anything more needed for the denialists to understand what "overwhelming" and "scholarly" is? I hope this would be accepted as a rhetoric question... Aregakn ( talk) 22:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref: [26] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montyofarabia ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)