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This article has now been protected for over two months. Is there any reason why it should not be unprotected? Kelly Martin 15:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, i'm no expert on the whole Armenian problem, but in the interests of improving this article i wanted to ask some questions.
I want to add that my only interest in this article is to create a fair and balanced topic, the kind that is seen in many other respectable sources on the Internet. --
I propose to move it in the talk page for further discussion as to how to make it more NPOV. So let make that a poll. Agree or oppose? Fadix 00:14, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I wanted to make a separate section on this because i feel it is important. I think we have to establish whether the adoption of that report is tantamount to recognition from the UN. I would have thought recognition would have come in the form of a Resolution, not an obscure sentence in a general report on genocide. Furthermore, i have read on other websites that "The Sub-Commission after meticulous debate refused to endorse the indictment for lack of convincing evidence" (ATAA), perhaps someone can clarify this.
Also on the Turkish embassy website it states "A recent comment on the U.N. position was rendered by, U.N. spokesman Farhan Haq on October 5, 2000 when he confirmed that the U.N. has not approved or endorsed a report labeling the Armenian experience as genocide." Can someone explain this statement?
-- E.A 12:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Stating that the "Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile" is a legitimate source of recognition undermines this articles credibility. Firstly, there is no Kurdistan from which this "parliament" is exiled, secondly, the 'recognition' was delivered by the head of the PKK (a terrorist organisation recognised by EU and US), Abdullah Ocalan. By using this your supporting the Kurdish POV and making this article naturally anti-Turkish by supporting PKK activities to split Turkey. -- E.A 18:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
That section is all upside down, informations not important enough are included, others more important, not. By important I mean, the recognitions by states, and organizations etc. By not important, I mean, statments given by the Turkish government or such. Beside, a timeline is too long, and a recent one not really related with the genocide itself, I propose to creat another page for it. Any suggestions? Fadix 16:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
There was a reason why first when I added that section, I named Constantinople, this was changed by Coolcat. It is a question of name conventions. In historical works, places are called according to what they were called during the period treated. In 1919, English language publications mostly used Constantinople, and in accordance to name convention, this is the term that should be used. The same is done also for the Istanbul entry, I don't see the word Constantinople deleted there. Also the French entry of the Armenian genocide, for the trial, use also Constantinople and not Istanbul. Fadix 18:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Due to no response for my suggestion on "Turkish government position", i've gone ahead and implemented it (especially since i notice French Wikipedia using the same). I've reworded some parts, reshuffled paragraph on recognition and added other small edits. -- E.A 21:13, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
There are websites with duplicate informations, as well as in the media, articles taken from the websites. There are hundreds of websites, and many articles in those websites. I believe there should be a process of selection of each websites. Supposes that we find a website that contains everything there is in two other websites, I don't see the need to include those other websites. Also, if those websites contains the texts in question referenced in the media section, why shousing those texts and not others in the same websites? Any proposition Fadix 16:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Those changes were part of the changes that I said should have been done, before starting to footnote. Also, the timeline should be restricted to only very important dates linked with genocide recognition and such. So I propose to have two timeline, one in the article, and another with more dates. Fadix 21:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
The article has gotten substantially worse in the last couple of days. Somebody went through and "neutralized" everything with bad writing and terrible grammar -- subject-verb agreement has been particularly destroyed by substituting phrases.
I have been reading up on Wikipedia NPOV policy, and it states that:
"If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail."
I feel the article at present does not show a sympathetic tone to the Turkish governments view. The initial edits i created gave one small paragraph to the Turkish gov POV. The edits that were added to this however dissmissed the Turkish gov POV as it went along and is so doing abandoned a smypathetic tone. I think the Turkish gov POV should only be refuted in one or two lines such "the statistics the government presents are disputed in certain academic circles", it should not be dismissed with a section larger than the Turkish gov POV itself, which as it stands, is one paragraph in an entire article. Let me know what you think. -- A.Garnet 16:00, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Should we add words of sympathy to the millions of Germans who lost their lives in WWII to the Holocaust section? Is this somehow relevent information? Where are the direct observations that tie any Turkish deaths to the Armenian Genocide (outside of death by disease because of the hundreds of thousands of bodies of slaughtered Armenians that were left lying about throughout the countryside). Now I do wish to add that I believe a discussion of the conditions in the Ottoman Empire - with contraction and subsequant refugee influx into Anatolia and the effect of the falling fortunes of the Ottoman Empire in the mindset of the ruling Turkish elits and masses - and specifically upon the development of the political views of the radical element of the CUP who came to power beginning in 1910/11 is relevant. It is relevant in the same way as a discussion of the political and economic circumstances of the Weimar Republic and the resultant rise of Hitler and the Nazis and the shaping of their political outlook (and that of the German massess) is relevant to a discusion of why would Germans commit genocide against the jews in WWII. in this regard the poor circumstances - political, economic and in regard to self-esteem - as well as the mechanisms of scapegoatism - and why the antagonism toward (Orthodox Christian) Armenians - etc - this information requires presentation for readers to understand how an environment came to be created where such a decision could be made and such actions could be taken to commit mass murder of an entire people - as the environment of despair and collapse and the need to blame affected the German mentality towards the Jews a very similar set of circumstances led to the Turkish animosities toward (and willingness to villanize) Armenians (who as a group were no real threat, had nothing to do with any significant Turkish/Muslim deaths prior to or during the Genocide and where such extreme violent actions taken against them could not be ever rationally justified). So yes in this regard deaths of and the presence of refugee Turks/Turkics in Anatolia is properly seen as one factor in creating an environment that allowed development of a mindset to justify extreme violent and inhumane action against the otherwise inocuous Armenians of the Empire. This is one of several major factors. -- THOTH 17:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Inserting this statement is akin to inserting a statement in the Holocaust section by David Irving that references German deaths in WWII. First these deaths had little if anything to do with Jews/Armenians and neither have anything to do with the Holocaust or Genocide. Again - if this presentation was such to actually discuss the history and the factors that caused the CUP and the Kurds and (various) Turks of the Ottoman Empire to begin slaughtering Armenians - then a discussion/presentation of the prior suffering of various Turkics at the hand of other orthodox and the contribution of such to the animosity against Armenians (one of many factors) - then yeah - I would say lets talk about it. But just to reference McCarthy's misleading and (as said) utrue claims adds nothing to any real or factual understanding of the Armenian Genocide. McCarthy's vaugue claims (largely from singular and much disputed/discredited sources) of some kind of Armenian civil war during this period just do not hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever. To validate such poor (sponsor pleasing) (so-called) scholarship does this issue a great diservice and again is the equivilant of including such "scholorship" as irving and Fairusson in a discussion of the Holocaust (as anything other then truth twisting apologists for the perpetrators). Don't forget that the Genocide of the Armenians - the methodology, the enactment, the results were witnessed by a great many - even allies of the Turks - and all saw it for what it was. There is no evidence of any significant "civil war" "revolt" or any such thing during this period. What we have here is a government of a militarized Empire ruled by a twisted political party (again not at all unlike the situation in Germany in the 1930s/40s) that decided to employ the state aparatus - including quazi offical elemts such as the Special Organization irregulars - and under a mantle of legality and military necessity - proceede to act to eliminate an unwanted minority ethno-religious element in their midsts and to plunder such. This is what the Armenian Genocide is all about. If you do not accept this as fact then you are delusioned and/or in denial and are basically declaring yourself unable to process information and understand historical events. The evdence to support such a view is overwhelming - just as we have with the Holocaust. To deny the essential facts of either is equally suspect. -- THOTH 17:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
THOTH, this is very straightforward, the Turkish governments position is that it was not genocide but part of a civil conflict in which many hundreds of thousands of muslims also died. If this view can be verified by a scholar i.e. McCarthy, then it is Wikipedias job to include this opposing position. Please do not make personal remarks such as "you are delusioned and/or in denial", Wikipedia has no place for what you or I think about certain views, it is only our job to explain these views as neutral as possible, this you dont seem to understand. -- A.Garnet 19:20, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
McCarthy's "view" is just as verifyable as Irving's contetion that the Nazis never killed Jews using gas chambers - the only difference is that McCarthy has less of a true scholarly basis to make such untrue statements (Do we blame Jews for German deaths in WWII or even imply that somehow there is any legitimacy to present that Germans died in a war that occured at the same time that they were deliberatly killing/murdering Jewish civilians - is this in any way relevant to what the Holocaust was about - the lessons of it - the actual enacment of it? NO. Neither is the fact that Turkish soldiers died in Gallipoli or were killed by Russians at the front. Even the fact that many Turkish villages and inhabitants were destroyed by marauding Cossaks or such has no direct relevance to the Armenian Genocide and to present it as such is to perpetuate a lie and a particularly sinister one that is most insulting to Armenians and others who arte concerned with victims of genocide and the ability of the perpetrators to escape punishment for their foul deeds.-- THOTH 22:09, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I've just archived 648kb from this talk page. This is ridiculous. Why not just edit a bit more? If you want to go and discuss the issues, find a forum. This talk page is intended solely for discussing the article. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I will post suggestions and apply them to the article 24 hrs later if no objection is posted. If you think the change is inaproporate, please post your reasoning. Thank you. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I object. Do not make these changes.-- THOTH 18:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre or the Armenian Relocation) is a term which refer to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of Young Turks from 1915 to 1917.
CoolCat - this suggestion - to add the term "Armenian relocation" is quite absurd - as are your other suggestions. As you point out - the Turkish Government calls this/these events "relocation" - however outside of this (rather dubious) position (that of the perpetrators) - this position runs counter to that of the UN, various independent tribunals, the position of the Association of Genocide Scholars, hundreds of Holocaust and Genocide scholars (as indicated in full page newspaper adds and such), and - as has been clearly documented - the intent of Lemkin the originator of the word Genocide itself - coined in large part specifically to describe the mass killings and destruction of the Armenians at the hands of the Turks. So NO! The use of the term Genocide in this case has been proven and justified beyond a doubt. When the Holocaust section is renamed the "German internment of undesireables" then we can talk - until then let us stick to the facts and not spread sick and insulting denilaist propoganda.-- THOTH 17:52, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide.
Several facts in connection with the incident are a matter of ongoing dispute among scholars as well as beeng a diplomatic dispute between Armenia, and Turkey, as well as other parts of the international community) dispute. Although there is a level of agreement in the events leading to the incident, several scholars, most notably Justin McCarthy, as well as the Turkish government rejects the classification " genocide", and argue that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I as it is observed elsewhere in Europe as well. Despite this thesis, a significant portion of scholars follow the theisis referencing the incident as a genocide.
Coolcat - once again your suggestions are false and misleading. This issue is not a dispute between Turkey and Armenia - in fact it is not a dispute at all. Their is no real dispute concerning the events that comprised the Armenian Genocide. Armenian males were drafted then disarmed, put to forced labor and then were slaughtered. The remaining Armenian women, elderly and children were systematically taken from their homes and killed in a variety of manner including marching many leagues without food or water as well as direct killing. There is a huge body of direct eyewitness evidence that supports these facts and supports the contention that this program was directed by the CUP as the controlling element of the Ottoman Turkish Government and that the intention was to annhiliate the Armenians as a people and eliminate them from Anatolia. These are facts and the body of evidence that supports these facts is considerable. The existance of Turkish counter-claims and of certain scholars who trumpet such are examples of Genocide denial that in fact are an ongoing part of the crime. I fully believe that both a full listing of the evidence regarding the genocide - including eyewitness accounts - particualry from offical government sources as well as a full account of the Government of Turkey's sponsored denial is in order in this section (or as an addendum or such). In this regard we can examine who McCarthy is, what he is claiming and why and also the various refuations of his claims - of which there are many. And if you or others insist on listing McCarthy as a source of counterclaims to the Genocide then I would argue that the article needs to enumerate the very many scholars and their positions that verify the Genocide - including the specific points they raise and the sources/proof for such etc. What do you say to this? -- THOTH 18:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The events is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted the authenticy of the Armenian Genocide.
I see no problem with this statment per se. Of course there are many more "proofs" that can be called upon to substantiate the use of "genocide" etc. The statement itself is no worse or no better then much of the rest of the article - which is not necesarily an endorsement on my part - as I see the presentation as generally unclear, unorganized and unscholarly. However the statment itself is non problematic in isolation IMO. -- THOTH 18:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The discussion is over. You have not changed, not even a bit. Fadix 19:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
There are a number of intelligent questions that in my opinion requires attention. -- Cool Cat My Talk 23:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It has been shown that the methods employed to exterminate Armenians - consisting to a great degree of forced migration leading to starvation - was both quite efficient as well as lending itself to political cover - ie the claim of deportation/relocation and associated justifications could be used as a pretext to hide the intent etc (this largely failed BTW - except among guilible Turks and other true believers in the great lie etc. And CoolCat asks why did they stop with the job incomplete? My response - where now is the nation of Armenia in Anatolia? Where is the presence of the vibrant Armenian people in the lands inhabited by them for thousands of years? (also Coolcat is claiming that millions of Armenians were in this area after the Genocide - funny - as most Genocide deniers [falsely] claim there were barely one million Armenians in Anatolia to begin with....And I fail to see the validity of any of your other points here (ASALA and the rest...). You talk about so-called death threats against those opposing the claim of Genocide - I respond - just because one Turk attempted to kill the Pope does it make all Turks pope-killers? I also think that the recent issue of Turkey prosecuting those who have spoken out regarding the genocide in Turkey is far more relevant. Here we have a nation denying its history and internally enforcing such false belief through laws restricting freedom of speech while at the same time such a nation is sponsoring academics with preconditions of acceptance of the official history as promulgated by Turkey - pathetic. This shameful record must be highlighted and exposed in Wikipedia for the casual reader to truly understand what is going on here and so that a proper understanding of the degree of denial and the fact that this is essentially an offical government sponsored version of Holocaust denial applied to the Armenian Genocide. -- THOTH 18:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Genocide denialism is just as valid as a POV as Holocaust denialism - there is no difference - only that in the case of the Armenian Genocide the Government (and people) that is the sucessor to those responsible for the criminal acts has never been fully called to task in the international arena and the (Turkish) Government and society is lacking in maturity and modernity and believes that they can continue to attempt to rerite history in a way that perpetuates false hyper-nationalistic and racist nation building myths at the expense of truth. They will only suceed in perpetuation of this Genocide if those of us who know the truth allow their falsities and distortions to remain unchallenged and if we fail in propoerly and thouroughly explaining the history and events so that the ignorant cannot be fooled by the lies this government and its nationalistic suppports attempt to perpetuate. -- THOTH 15:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
-- THOTH 21:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)==Coolcat recent change==
I have reverted Coolcat change, because relocation is not an alternative, and is not used as alternative for the term Armenian genocide. It is entirly a different position. It is like adding in the entry Quantum Mechanic, Super String as an alternative term for the words Quantum Mechanic. I have tried to explain him those things, but he would not listen. Relocation is not inclusive and is another thesis, another interpretation, this entry is about the position called Armenian genocide, and also includes its critics, for this reason the term "Armenian relocation" can not be used as alternative term. Fadix 00:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat Talk 15:23, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Those articles of course contradict Coolcat thesis that the term Armenian relocation is an alternative to the word Armenian genocide.
Let examine Coolcat “sources.”
What Coolcat did was to search “Armenian relocation” and then, finding those, he didn’t bothered reading what he found. Using the same logic, I can for instance search “Super String” and finding that, I would claim that I have found an alternative term to what is called Quantum Mechanic, which of course is ridiculous.
The first link, present the official Turkish government translation of Ottoman said archives(There are records in the German archives that show some of them to be manipulated, but that is another story for now). As I said previously, the official Turkish government translation of the word that Halacoglu translate as relocation, is deportation. The link Coolcat present is in fact what I have been saying… one can search on that page, the word “deportation” and he will see that the large majority of the translations were “deportation,” in fact, as I said, the term itself means forced evacuation, and has a second definition which means destroying the enemy by way of kicking them out. The etymology is Arabic, and I have proposed to Coolcat to ask an Arabic speaking about this, and he will see that they will confirm it.
Coolcat in fact, did not pay attention to what was in this link, let refer to the No. 71 document that those in charge of the archives published by mistake without paying attention that it was about the special organization and their order to kill Armenians. If Coolcat has the official Volume published in Ankara in 1994, titled: “Osmanli Belgelerinde Ermeniler” it is on p. 69. But as I am sure that he does not have the volume itself, let refer to the one that is in the first link he provides.
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/2b_071.htm
It is a matter of fact, that all the translation of the Ottoman Turkish is not presented there.
Let post the full translation.
“It has recently been reported that massacres of Armenians and Christians without distinction as to sect have been organized within the province, and that in Mardin, for example, some seven hundred people from among the Armenians and other Christian inhabitants were recently taken outside of the city at night and, with due authorization, slaughtered like sheep by those individuals who had been brought from Diyarbakir, and that the total of those killed to date in these massacres is estimated at two thousand persons, and that there are fears that, if a speedy and definite end is not put to this, then the Muslim inhabitants of neighboring provinces will rise up and engage in a general slaughter of Christians. As it is not appropriate that the disciplinary and administrative measures adopted with regard to the Armenians be extended to the other Christians, [this situation] will have a very negative efect on public opinion; consequently, [it is directed that] such practices which threaten the lives of Christians indiscriminately [must] be stopped immediately and a report of the situation be provided.”
This is what the Turkish historian Halil Berktay says about this particular record.
“…he isn't calling for an end to what is being done to the Armenians, but rather calling for massacres against other Christians to be prevented. In the first sentence, he explains, and even reminds, that massacres have been organized. He states that, in the most recent incidents in Mardin, some 700 Armenians and other Christians have been slaughtered `like sheep', and that thus a total of 2 thousand people have been killed. He refers to those doing the killing as `the people who were earlier transferred from Diyarbakir'; if this is not a reference to the `special organization' I cited in the interview published on 9 October, what is it? He states as well the fear that the Muslim population in neighboring provinces will rise up and slaughter all the Christians. He notes this not as a mere claim, but rather as actual information: he says that `it has been reported'. Let's look at the second sentence: He says that the `disciplinary and administrative measures' applied to the Armenians are not appropriate for application to other Christians, and should be halted immediately. Does he say `Don't kill the Armenians either'? No, he doesn't say this. Does he say that `We only ordered deportations; what are these massacres?'? He says nothing of the sort. Only, the word `katliam' (`massacre') repeated several times in the first sentence becomes `Ermeniler hakkinda ittihaz edilen tedabir - i inzibatiye ve siyasiye' (`the disciplinary and administrative measures adopted with regard to the Armenians') in the second sentence.” Those in charge of the archives, when they have decided to include this in the volume, knew that people that would read it would think that this record will show that the Ottoman government was taking measures to protect the Armenians. But again, it has been established during the Court Martial, that the Ottoman government was using vague terms such as “measures” to mean extermination, the term deportation was even equated with the term extermination. Also, those in charge, thought that people that will read this statement, will not understand who were those brought for the purposes of the massacres, if they did not knew anything about the special organization.
Also, the records in the first link Coolcat present are known to have been altered, and I have given one example of such cases, when for the same record of 90%-10% population quota, the German transcription placed the 90% to be destroyed, while the version in the Ankara volume, it is replaced by “deportation.”
The second link, Coolcat present, is the “research” of Halacoglu, in which, it is claimed that only 400 thousand Armenians were moved, and that only 50 thousand died. Still, this in no way show us that Armenian relocation is an alternative for the word Armenian genocide, but rather that the movement of population is translated by Halacoglu as relocation and not deportation.
The third link, is again a “research” by Halacoglu, as the number of Armenians returning back, it does not show, that “Armenian relocation” is an alternative term for the words “Armenian genocide.”
The forth link, is a known racist website, and even there, the link Coolcat present, does not show that the term “Armenian relocation” is used as a synonym for the thesis called “Armenian genocide.” As I said, it is a thesis in itself, and could maybe have its own entry.
I will even not bother opening the website armenianreality.com, it is a racist website and is far from being credible, for no matter what they claim. The choices of the domain name itself show us how screwed up are those that have build it. Does anyone see me using sites with names like turkishlies.com, Turkishreality.com ?
The fifth link, I already answered, the sixth, doesn’t still present any statements, that “Armenian relocation” is a synonym to call the theses “Armenian genocide,” the seventh neither. Number 8. shows the quite opposite, and Number 9, is again Halacoglu theses, and does not show the term being used to mean “Armenian genocide.”
To conclude, as I have shown, the official Turkish translation, used in their own Volume, is deportation, even if it was relocation, still, wanting that to be an alternative word, is to misunderstand why alternative words are used. “Armenian relocation” is a thesis alone, which can have its entry… which can start by something such: “It is a thesis that propose that Armenians were removed to be resettled, rather than being deported or forcibly evacuated, this position is maintained by some Turkish scholars, etc.” Fadix 18:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose that Coolcat and others who believe (in the fairy tales) that he does open a new Wikipedia section entitled "the Armenian relocation" - perhaps somewhere between the section on the Brothers Grim and the one concerning Mother Hubbard. I expect that we might also see there a section submitted by David Irving concerning the progressive civil rights laws of the Third Reich and perhaps a ethnogrophy entry concerning "Mountain Turks" (and their first class treatment as citizens of Turkey...)....in the meantime let us post factually in the section correctly and accuratly titled - "The Armenian Genocide".....-- THOTH 20:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Fadix? Is that you Fadix? What Armenian deportation/relocation? I assume(d) that you are aware that the "deportation" orders and sunsequant justifications and untruthful explanations were mearly a cover for Genocide. Are you forgeting Ackam's analysis - where he references the fact that no provisions were provided for any type of relocation/deporation - that the lack of such and the conduct of the Turkish Gendarmes and Special Organization in herding the convoys through desolate reagions and encouraging and participating in their depravation is proof enough of intent....And what sort of "deportation/relocation" of a population includes only the women, children and elderly? What about the men? Aren't men part of the population - and wouldn't one expect that men would be neccesary and included if there were some intent to actually move a population? These facts, as well as the confirmed existance and admissions regarding secret orders and the intent of the "deportation" (including the fact that those of Western Anatolia were also "deported" etc) are further proof of the fallacy of any claim that there was in fact a "relocation" - that there was any intent other then slaughter and annhiliation of the Armenian people/population/nation. Need I also remind reader of the thousands of eyewitness - offical government, missionary, survivor and otherwise testimony that describes countless acts of slaughter and deprivation - the same over and over and over - and the pattern of Ottoman government action that demonstrates clear intent. This was a barbaric Genocide consiting of massacres and killings of innocents coldly enacted and conducted for political purposes and I am sick and tired of attempts by the Turkish Government and their various supporters to attemtp to whitewash these crimes. And those of us who know and understand these facts should not tolerate these shameful efforts to deny the facts and this Wikipedia article needs to be strengthened and not diluted and the planning and enactment and subsequant and continuing denial of these crimes needs to be explained and thoroughly illustrated. The current article is both insuficiant in this regard and is severely comprimised by wishy washy and unclear text. Facts are facts - the support exists - the denial is thoroughly discredited - and this needs to be presented as such. Likewise the history leading up to the Genocide and the events following require much better presentation to allow the reader who is unfamiliar with tis history to properly understand the answers to the questions of why - in addition to understanding the how - and ultimatly of course it needs to clearly present (comitted by) who. -- THOTH 14:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure Fadix - it would be appropriate to be presented/discussed in a section entitled: "Denial of the Armenian Genocide". To present it any other way would be actively promoting falsehood. Is this Wiki? -- THOTH 17:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
It is imaterial whether or not you recognize anything. The fact that it is well documented that Lemkin coined the term precisely to describe what occured to the Armenians makes use of the term genocide entirely legitimate - in addition to it clearly meeting all other stated criteria for genocide - UN definitions and optherwise. So you have no point here except as a troll who is trying to disrupt things and obscure the truth based on a very specific agenda. Again - the comparisons to those who deny the Holocaust are most appropriate here. There is more then sufficient evidence - eyewitness - official, unofficial, confessions, trial verdicts and so and and so forth that paint the picture of what occured most clearly. That there exists a position that seeks to deny the truth of what occured - that this position is solely held by the Government of Turkey, variuous Turksih nationals, and researchers that are directly sponsored by the Turkish Government - the most prominent by a Government institution (Turkish Historical Society) founded specifically to bolster an historic perspective designed to justify pre-concieved historagraphy supporting a propogandistic political position concerning the Turkish State and Turkish history - real and imagined - is also fact and needs to be fully explained in this or a related article. These are all pertinent circumstances surounding the Armenian Genocide - the truth of it - its extreme level of documentation from a mirad of sources - and the persistent political campaign of denial - including such efforts as yours on this very site. In the meantime I concur with the suggestion that a comprehensive listing of scholars and scholarly organizations with a position concerning the Armenian Genocide should be itemized.-- THOTH 21:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted the first change made by the new member, because it was against the principle that Wikipedia is not here to say what is the truth, but what is said about the event. Fadix 23:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide
So what do you suggest we do with the second paragraph as it is quite messy. -- Cool Cat Talk 23:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC) ~
To have productive and controlled article creation or modification all the users should aggree on the same terms and conditions. If some users edit article without discussion, when most of users are aggred that every change should be discussed, those undiscussed changes should be reverted back (rejected) unconditionally. Rules should work equally for all the users without exceptions. So, Fadix has done clearly right thing which should be appreciated, especially because of his revert contradicts to his position. We should follow his example. -- Gvorl 14:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide.
For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The events is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted the authenticy of the Armenian Genocide.
Several facts in connection with the incident are a matter of ongoing dispute among scholars as well as beeng a diplomatic dispute between Armenia, and Turkey, as well as other parts of the international community) dispute. Although there is a level of agreement in the events leading to the incident, several scholars, as well as the Turkish government rejects the classification " genocide", and argue that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I as it is observed elsewhere in Europe as well. Despite this thesis, a significant portion of scholars follow the theisis referencing the incident as a genocide.
I realise you do not want such a change, what alternative do you suggest? I have coppied the actual suggestion from the degraded conversation, cleaner start. -- Cool Cat Talk 11:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Calling the Armenian Genocide an "incident" is akin to calling WWII an incident. This is entirely incorrect. An "incident" is a specific singularity - like smashing a plane into a building. The enactment of the Armenian Genocide - the various wide ranging plans, actions, deceptions and such taken by the CUP, Ottoman Governemnt officials and the current government of Turkey itself and it s supportors such as yourself - causing the continuous great suffering and abuse and untimely and often gruesome death experienced by hundreds of thousands of Armenians - by nearly all Armenians in Anatolia - those who survived and those who died and were killed etc - cannot be cheapened by calling such a mere "incident". And neather can you cheapen the memory of such criminal and vicious actions for the decendents of those Armenian who survived such times and persevered in the face of the brutal and criminal Ottoman Government campaign to eliminate them.
Likewise it is an entirely incorrect assertion that the "dispute" is between Armenia and Turkey. First it is not so much a "dispute" as an attempt to revise the historical record along false and misleading lines to obscure the true history and the complicity of the Turkish government and people in these shamful acts. And this effort is being entirely undertaken by the Government of Turkey and (so-called) scholars that are in its pay and/or otherwise beholden to it. It is important that any mention of a "dispute" make these fact most clear. It also needs to be made most clear the amount of overwhelming support for the belief/contention or what have you among actual scholars and specifically Genocide scholars, Holocaust scholars, and historians in general that fully accepts the fact of the Armenian Genocide as such (and the CUP/Ottoman Turkish government as instigators responsible for such and the same and the Turkish and Kurdish people of the time as responsible for carrying out the actual acts of such) and again it needs to be made very clear that the word "genocide" itself has largely come about as a descriptor for precisely the series of actions, events and the result of the CUP/Ottoman Turkish campaign which was undertaken to and largely succeeded in its objectives to eliminate Armenians, Armenian presence, Armenian culture from Anatolia (and to plunder the assets of such people). The evidence of this planning - of the intentions - of the methodoloogy and of the result has beeen thoroughly and painstakingly documented and has been verifyied by accepted scholarship that is not serioulsy questioned by serious and objective scholars in any real sense - and the attempts to deny such - on the part of the current government of Turkey and those Turkish and non-Turkish (yet beholden to the Government of Turkey) academics to deny such evidence - such facts - such real history - is a most shamful and deceptive attempt to promote lies over truth and it constitutes a series of acts that themselves are properly characterized as part of the Genocide itself - that what they - and you - are attempting to do - is in fact a perpetuation of the Armenian Genocide. These facts need to be made clear in this presentation - not your weasel words that do nothing but expose the corruption of your thought and the uglyness of what you are attempting here in this article. -- THOTH 14:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
As a wikifan, i didn't change or add something in the page, mainly, because i don't feel that i have enough knowledge about the subject. But, there are many items which i feel 'uncomfortable' about the article.... -Motivation part is missing, altough it is a fact that there were pogroms against the Armenians, before WWI, effects of Armenian nationalism and revolts are not taken into account.... -Peak point for the genocide Diaspora is considered as 1915-1916, but all mentioned genocide Diaspora accounts are from east regions of present day Turkey, if it is a campaign of extermination against Armenians fueled by nationalist hatred, why Armenians in west and central parts of Anatolia are not effected by this campaign?.... -Van Resistance chapter conflicts with military history chronicles. Generally, it is considered that, when it was clear that, Imperial Russian Army was to capture Van in a few days, already organized groups like Dashnaks, revolted and they had gained the control of the city, the city was captured by Russians and Armenian units attached, on the 16th day of the revolt.... -Ottoman Government's decision of displacing Armenian citizens to southern parts of the country, seems reasonable, if you look from an administrative and military point of view (not humanitarian).... -Capacity of Ottoman Army to relocate huge numbers of civilians has to be discussed, please note that 1915 is the year that, Ottoman armies were fighting in Gallipoli with around 300.000 casualties, in Iraq with around 100.000 casualties, in Sarikamis with around 100.000 casualties, also, in Sinai and Palestine against British and was conducting a war in Yemen and Arabia against Arab rebels. Actual figures of Ottoman military presence has to be included in the article, it makes the distinction of 'massacre' and 'genocide'. If you consider the 1927 census of Turkey was 13.6 millions, i have doubts about how much manpower Ottoman Army could field for an organized genocide.... -Transportation system of Ottoman Empire has to be mentioned, without any railways available, displacing huge numbers of civilian without adequate food, water supplies, means of transportation and with very poor protection against gangs (eastern regions of Anatolia had lawless gangs even until 1960-1970 period), clearly would turn to 'death marches'.... -Relocating Armenian civilian population in the deserts of Syria caused definitly a disaster, considering the Ottoman Empire was at the brink of collapse and even couldn't feed, dress and equip their own armies.... Ottomans, served well for the Germans, by opening a new front against Russia in the Caucasus region, so the Russia could not use valuable resources against Germanny in the Eastern Front, but this, combined with Armenian desire for self-governing, like Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians had previously managed, resulted with huge losses of Armenian civilians.... Those events are not well documented as Holocaust (Germans were definitly better with archiving then the Ottomans), the losses and sufferings are beyond discussion, but, the main notion to call the events as 'Genocide', is debated and will be debated.... For wikipedia, as an open source, it is very difficult to maintain an article, disputed so much, but i propose to add above mentioned headlines as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.42.16.43 ( talk) 19:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I possibly won't debate or contribute to the article much. And I don't care much what you call hundreds of thousands civilians death since it is a great loss and tragedy already. As long as I know estimated realistic numbers of Armenian casualties were at least 300.000 and might be 500.000 which means a terrible massacre even if it is death by cold in winter, hunger or bullet. Rest are possibly forced conversions or such. The transportation system were bad it is true lots of Turkish people died on ships while exchange through Greece in later years too, during war food were not plenty, it was winter, armenians didn't protected well, ... but again that all don't justify such hundreds of thousands citizens' "death march" intentionally-unintentionally or half-intentionally. On the other hand, though it doesn't justify for such a big casualty or forced deportations, Armenian gangs also massacred a huge number of Turkish-Kurdish civilians in the area which is another undeniable fact. Article seems not depicting such events at least by a quick check if I am not mistaken. If I missed such a section just point it out for me. If the article not contains such balancing info it cannot be considered as an WP:NPOV article. Kasaalan ( talk) 15:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
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This is my first time adding to a forum, so apologies if I'm going about it incorrectly. This is a response to the comment up above about Talaat Pasha not being involved. In an interview with a journalist sympathetic with the Turkish government, Enver Pasha (not Talaat, that is true, but I doubt one was involved without the other, and Enver uses "we") replied to a question that implied he had little to do with the planning of the massacre. "You are greatly mistaken," he said. "We have this country absolutely under control. I have no desire to shift the blame on our underling and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.60.27.69 ( talk) 21:43, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Armenian crimes conducted during the Russia occupation of Eastern Turkey and the mass extermination of the local Muslim and Turkish population is not mentioned with a single word. Strange that people claiming to have been victims of genocide have colonies of 8 million Armenians around the world where according to their theories there should not be a singe Armenian left after 1915. Hittit ( talk) 22:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
The total population of the Ottoman Empire in 1897 was 19,050,307 (History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Volume 2 By Stanford J. Shaw, Ezel K. Shaw pp.240). Armenians numbered just 1 million in 1987, in 1906 it stood at 1,1 million and in 1914 at 1,3 million. By this any suggestion or insinuation of the killing of 2 000 000 Armenians in Ottoman Turkey is not just a lie but shear impossibility. Not did only the population not decline but it in increased +30% in under 20 years. This would hardly be the effect of mass killings.
Assuming that 1,3 million were killed (virtually all exterminated in 1915) would make it impossible to have 8 million Armenians today, even if 500 000 were killed you could not have 8 million Armenians today since this would mean that the Armenian rate of population increase would surpass the population increase of any nation known today on the face of the earth. Hittit ( talk) 07:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
It seems you would like very much so if there was no talk or research on the issue. The sheer lunacy of these genocide claims requires rigorous investigation and provision of concrete evidence. You cannot build a genocide case based on “your word” or what your senile grand mother told or an alleged “traumatic” reproduction frenzy achieving an over 1000% population growth. Are you now saying that fragments of Armenians living in Russia were the main reproduction catapult to achieve the current figure of app. 8 million? How do you explain that 6 out 8 million Armenians live outside Russia and thus are the very descendants of Ottoman Armenians? achieving 6 million would be the normal population growth comparing to other former Ottoman colonies such as Bulgaria and Greece only if the base figure is 1,5 million (or higher) any less than this would suggest long term hormonal treatment to substantially increase Armenian female fertility and capability to bear children. Furthermore, not to mention that pictures of alleged Armenian refugees have also turned out to be actually fleeing Muslims, fabrication of documentation is also more the rule than the exception e.g.., virtually no validated Ottoman documentation (origins if any such later produced are in high doubt) of attempted and intended extermination. Having in mind that Ottoman Archives contains over 11 000 documents on the issue “genocide” researchers have not bother to make any examination of these. Armenian and Russia keep closed their own archives on the subject; most reports of allegations are based on Christian Missionaries highly operational in the area during WW1 or 3rd party accounts as these were in the same fashion instrumental for the propaganda war prior to the Turco-Russian War 1877-1878. Classic “weapons of mass-destruction” scenario paving the way of any major war. Not much has changed in terms of military propaganda since the 19th century. Hittit ( talk) 09:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Not only did the Armenian population increase in Ottoman Turkey between 1887 and 1914 with 30% but some Turkish born Armenians such Calouste Gulbenkian made an immense fortune ripping-off the Ottoman Government in the very years Armenians are claimed to have been mass killed. Hittit ( talk) 21:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Another factual error in this article is that the article claims without citation that the Turkish state claims that the casualties were around 300 thousand which is once again wrong. The Turkish state claims that slightly less than 600 thousand Armenians have died. [5] TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 21:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I heard on the news that the United States recognized the Armenian Genocide as an actual genocide, causing Turkey to remove their ambassador. It was never repeated. Is it actually true that the United States recognized the genocide and is it worth mentioning on the article? 71.129.63.227 ( talk) 16:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I am not interested in the details here, but given what the news says, I wonder what the Turkish Wikipedia version of this page is like. I wonder how it differs from the English (and if there is an Armenian) version. I don't read Turkish and can not be bothered to run the page through Google translate, but if someone with high emotions (say like 4,000 people out there) would like to translate that and comment on the differences it wll make an interesting study in "cross cultural Wikipedia" and may be the beginning of a new field. Another example would be to compare the Japanese and Korean versions of specific periods in history. Then Wikipages will begin to make history by starting a new field. History2007 ( talk) 13:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Denialists? The correct term is exposing the truth, this so called genocide is nothing more than the Weapons of Mass Destruction for which the evidence was presented in the UN and used as a pretext to attack Iraq. I bet in 20 years time when an American shoolchild is asked why did the US attack Iraq the answer would be because Iraq had WMD and was going to use them. Here we are almoust 100 years after the Allied attack agains Turkey during the WWI and we are still debating war propaganda. Hittit ( talk) 08:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
[tabbing over to the left to save space] Back to the historical point of the Blue Book. The Republic of Turkey recently asked the British government to renounce the Blue Book. Unfortunately for Turkey the British government not only denied the request the government firmly stood by the Blue Book as accurate historical testimony. If anyone has anything to say against the Blue Book I would like to hear from you here. Referenced sources only from independent sources only (no Turkish, Armenian, Assyrian or Greek sources). There are numerous Turkish scholars/sources that attempt to discredit the Blue Book by claiming that the testimony was falsified. Their reasoning is that the names of the eye-witness testimonies were with held, because they were still living in the Ottoman Empire and they feared reprisals, however, their names were published independently shortly after the Blue Book was published. More recently an uncensored edition has been published that has integrated the original Blue Book with the names of the eye-witnesses, but it is the identical/same testimony and witnesses that were published shortly after the original events. btw what did you people do to the three paragraph section about the "Blue Book" in this article about the Armenian Genocide? It has completely disappeared. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 13:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
This article has now been protected for over two months. Is there any reason why it should not be unprotected? Kelly Martin 15:08, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
Firstly, i'm no expert on the whole Armenian problem, but in the interests of improving this article i wanted to ask some questions.
I want to add that my only interest in this article is to create a fair and balanced topic, the kind that is seen in many other respectable sources on the Internet. --
I propose to move it in the talk page for further discussion as to how to make it more NPOV. So let make that a poll. Agree or oppose? Fadix 00:14, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I wanted to make a separate section on this because i feel it is important. I think we have to establish whether the adoption of that report is tantamount to recognition from the UN. I would have thought recognition would have come in the form of a Resolution, not an obscure sentence in a general report on genocide. Furthermore, i have read on other websites that "The Sub-Commission after meticulous debate refused to endorse the indictment for lack of convincing evidence" (ATAA), perhaps someone can clarify this.
Also on the Turkish embassy website it states "A recent comment on the U.N. position was rendered by, U.N. spokesman Farhan Haq on October 5, 2000 when he confirmed that the U.N. has not approved or endorsed a report labeling the Armenian experience as genocide." Can someone explain this statement?
-- E.A 12:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Stating that the "Parliament of Kurdistan in Exile" is a legitimate source of recognition undermines this articles credibility. Firstly, there is no Kurdistan from which this "parliament" is exiled, secondly, the 'recognition' was delivered by the head of the PKK (a terrorist organisation recognised by EU and US), Abdullah Ocalan. By using this your supporting the Kurdish POV and making this article naturally anti-Turkish by supporting PKK activities to split Turkey. -- E.A 18:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
That section is all upside down, informations not important enough are included, others more important, not. By important I mean, the recognitions by states, and organizations etc. By not important, I mean, statments given by the Turkish government or such. Beside, a timeline is too long, and a recent one not really related with the genocide itself, I propose to creat another page for it. Any suggestions? Fadix 16:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
There was a reason why first when I added that section, I named Constantinople, this was changed by Coolcat. It is a question of name conventions. In historical works, places are called according to what they were called during the period treated. In 1919, English language publications mostly used Constantinople, and in accordance to name convention, this is the term that should be used. The same is done also for the Istanbul entry, I don't see the word Constantinople deleted there. Also the French entry of the Armenian genocide, for the trial, use also Constantinople and not Istanbul. Fadix 18:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Due to no response for my suggestion on "Turkish government position", i've gone ahead and implemented it (especially since i notice French Wikipedia using the same). I've reworded some parts, reshuffled paragraph on recognition and added other small edits. -- E.A 21:13, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
There are websites with duplicate informations, as well as in the media, articles taken from the websites. There are hundreds of websites, and many articles in those websites. I believe there should be a process of selection of each websites. Supposes that we find a website that contains everything there is in two other websites, I don't see the need to include those other websites. Also, if those websites contains the texts in question referenced in the media section, why shousing those texts and not others in the same websites? Any proposition Fadix 16:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Those changes were part of the changes that I said should have been done, before starting to footnote. Also, the timeline should be restricted to only very important dates linked with genocide recognition and such. So I propose to have two timeline, one in the article, and another with more dates. Fadix 21:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
The article has gotten substantially worse in the last couple of days. Somebody went through and "neutralized" everything with bad writing and terrible grammar -- subject-verb agreement has been particularly destroyed by substituting phrases.
I have been reading up on Wikipedia NPOV policy, and it states that:
"If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone. Many articles end up as partisan commentary even while presenting both points of view. Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail."
I feel the article at present does not show a sympathetic tone to the Turkish governments view. The initial edits i created gave one small paragraph to the Turkish gov POV. The edits that were added to this however dissmissed the Turkish gov POV as it went along and is so doing abandoned a smypathetic tone. I think the Turkish gov POV should only be refuted in one or two lines such "the statistics the government presents are disputed in certain academic circles", it should not be dismissed with a section larger than the Turkish gov POV itself, which as it stands, is one paragraph in an entire article. Let me know what you think. -- A.Garnet 16:00, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Should we add words of sympathy to the millions of Germans who lost their lives in WWII to the Holocaust section? Is this somehow relevent information? Where are the direct observations that tie any Turkish deaths to the Armenian Genocide (outside of death by disease because of the hundreds of thousands of bodies of slaughtered Armenians that were left lying about throughout the countryside). Now I do wish to add that I believe a discussion of the conditions in the Ottoman Empire - with contraction and subsequant refugee influx into Anatolia and the effect of the falling fortunes of the Ottoman Empire in the mindset of the ruling Turkish elits and masses - and specifically upon the development of the political views of the radical element of the CUP who came to power beginning in 1910/11 is relevant. It is relevant in the same way as a discussion of the political and economic circumstances of the Weimar Republic and the resultant rise of Hitler and the Nazis and the shaping of their political outlook (and that of the German massess) is relevant to a discusion of why would Germans commit genocide against the jews in WWII. in this regard the poor circumstances - political, economic and in regard to self-esteem - as well as the mechanisms of scapegoatism - and why the antagonism toward (Orthodox Christian) Armenians - etc - this information requires presentation for readers to understand how an environment came to be created where such a decision could be made and such actions could be taken to commit mass murder of an entire people - as the environment of despair and collapse and the need to blame affected the German mentality towards the Jews a very similar set of circumstances led to the Turkish animosities toward (and willingness to villanize) Armenians (who as a group were no real threat, had nothing to do with any significant Turkish/Muslim deaths prior to or during the Genocide and where such extreme violent actions taken against them could not be ever rationally justified). So yes in this regard deaths of and the presence of refugee Turks/Turkics in Anatolia is properly seen as one factor in creating an environment that allowed development of a mindset to justify extreme violent and inhumane action against the otherwise inocuous Armenians of the Empire. This is one of several major factors. -- THOTH 17:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Inserting this statement is akin to inserting a statement in the Holocaust section by David Irving that references German deaths in WWII. First these deaths had little if anything to do with Jews/Armenians and neither have anything to do with the Holocaust or Genocide. Again - if this presentation was such to actually discuss the history and the factors that caused the CUP and the Kurds and (various) Turks of the Ottoman Empire to begin slaughtering Armenians - then a discussion/presentation of the prior suffering of various Turkics at the hand of other orthodox and the contribution of such to the animosity against Armenians (one of many factors) - then yeah - I would say lets talk about it. But just to reference McCarthy's misleading and (as said) utrue claims adds nothing to any real or factual understanding of the Armenian Genocide. McCarthy's vaugue claims (largely from singular and much disputed/discredited sources) of some kind of Armenian civil war during this period just do not hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever. To validate such poor (sponsor pleasing) (so-called) scholarship does this issue a great diservice and again is the equivilant of including such "scholorship" as irving and Fairusson in a discussion of the Holocaust (as anything other then truth twisting apologists for the perpetrators). Don't forget that the Genocide of the Armenians - the methodology, the enactment, the results were witnessed by a great many - even allies of the Turks - and all saw it for what it was. There is no evidence of any significant "civil war" "revolt" or any such thing during this period. What we have here is a government of a militarized Empire ruled by a twisted political party (again not at all unlike the situation in Germany in the 1930s/40s) that decided to employ the state aparatus - including quazi offical elemts such as the Special Organization irregulars - and under a mantle of legality and military necessity - proceede to act to eliminate an unwanted minority ethno-religious element in their midsts and to plunder such. This is what the Armenian Genocide is all about. If you do not accept this as fact then you are delusioned and/or in denial and are basically declaring yourself unable to process information and understand historical events. The evdence to support such a view is overwhelming - just as we have with the Holocaust. To deny the essential facts of either is equally suspect. -- THOTH 17:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
THOTH, this is very straightforward, the Turkish governments position is that it was not genocide but part of a civil conflict in which many hundreds of thousands of muslims also died. If this view can be verified by a scholar i.e. McCarthy, then it is Wikipedias job to include this opposing position. Please do not make personal remarks such as "you are delusioned and/or in denial", Wikipedia has no place for what you or I think about certain views, it is only our job to explain these views as neutral as possible, this you dont seem to understand. -- A.Garnet 19:20, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
McCarthy's "view" is just as verifyable as Irving's contetion that the Nazis never killed Jews using gas chambers - the only difference is that McCarthy has less of a true scholarly basis to make such untrue statements (Do we blame Jews for German deaths in WWII or even imply that somehow there is any legitimacy to present that Germans died in a war that occured at the same time that they were deliberatly killing/murdering Jewish civilians - is this in any way relevant to what the Holocaust was about - the lessons of it - the actual enacment of it? NO. Neither is the fact that Turkish soldiers died in Gallipoli or were killed by Russians at the front. Even the fact that many Turkish villages and inhabitants were destroyed by marauding Cossaks or such has no direct relevance to the Armenian Genocide and to present it as such is to perpetuate a lie and a particularly sinister one that is most insulting to Armenians and others who arte concerned with victims of genocide and the ability of the perpetrators to escape punishment for their foul deeds.-- THOTH 22:09, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I've just archived 648kb from this talk page. This is ridiculous. Why not just edit a bit more? If you want to go and discuss the issues, find a forum. This talk page is intended solely for discussing the article. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 20:34, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I will post suggestions and apply them to the article 24 hrs later if no objection is posted. If you think the change is inaproporate, please post your reasoning. Thank you. -- Cool Cat My Talk 21:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I object. Do not make these changes.-- THOTH 18:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian Holocaust or the Armenian Massacre or the Armenian Relocation) is a term which refer to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of Young Turks from 1915 to 1917.
CoolCat - this suggestion - to add the term "Armenian relocation" is quite absurd - as are your other suggestions. As you point out - the Turkish Government calls this/these events "relocation" - however outside of this (rather dubious) position (that of the perpetrators) - this position runs counter to that of the UN, various independent tribunals, the position of the Association of Genocide Scholars, hundreds of Holocaust and Genocide scholars (as indicated in full page newspaper adds and such), and - as has been clearly documented - the intent of Lemkin the originator of the word Genocide itself - coined in large part specifically to describe the mass killings and destruction of the Armenians at the hands of the Turks. So NO! The use of the term Genocide in this case has been proven and justified beyond a doubt. When the Holocaust section is renamed the "German internment of undesireables" then we can talk - until then let us stick to the facts and not spread sick and insulting denilaist propoganda.-- THOTH 17:52, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide.
Several facts in connection with the incident are a matter of ongoing dispute among scholars as well as beeng a diplomatic dispute between Armenia, and Turkey, as well as other parts of the international community) dispute. Although there is a level of agreement in the events leading to the incident, several scholars, most notably Justin McCarthy, as well as the Turkish government rejects the classification " genocide", and argue that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I as it is observed elsewhere in Europe as well. Despite this thesis, a significant portion of scholars follow the theisis referencing the incident as a genocide.
Coolcat - once again your suggestions are false and misleading. This issue is not a dispute between Turkey and Armenia - in fact it is not a dispute at all. Their is no real dispute concerning the events that comprised the Armenian Genocide. Armenian males were drafted then disarmed, put to forced labor and then were slaughtered. The remaining Armenian women, elderly and children were systematically taken from their homes and killed in a variety of manner including marching many leagues without food or water as well as direct killing. There is a huge body of direct eyewitness evidence that supports these facts and supports the contention that this program was directed by the CUP as the controlling element of the Ottoman Turkish Government and that the intention was to annhiliate the Armenians as a people and eliminate them from Anatolia. These are facts and the body of evidence that supports these facts is considerable. The existance of Turkish counter-claims and of certain scholars who trumpet such are examples of Genocide denial that in fact are an ongoing part of the crime. I fully believe that both a full listing of the evidence regarding the genocide - including eyewitness accounts - particualry from offical government sources as well as a full account of the Government of Turkey's sponsored denial is in order in this section (or as an addendum or such). In this regard we can examine who McCarthy is, what he is claiming and why and also the various refuations of his claims - of which there are many. And if you or others insist on listing McCarthy as a source of counterclaims to the Genocide then I would argue that the article needs to enumerate the very many scholars and their positions that verify the Genocide - including the specific points they raise and the sources/proof for such etc. What do you say to this? -- THOTH 18:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The events is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted the authenticy of the Armenian Genocide.
I see no problem with this statment per se. Of course there are many more "proofs" that can be called upon to substantiate the use of "genocide" etc. The statement itself is no worse or no better then much of the rest of the article - which is not necesarily an endorsement on my part - as I see the presentation as generally unclear, unorganized and unscholarly. However the statment itself is non problematic in isolation IMO. -- THOTH 18:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The discussion is over. You have not changed, not even a bit. Fadix 19:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
There are a number of intelligent questions that in my opinion requires attention. -- Cool Cat My Talk 23:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It has been shown that the methods employed to exterminate Armenians - consisting to a great degree of forced migration leading to starvation - was both quite efficient as well as lending itself to political cover - ie the claim of deportation/relocation and associated justifications could be used as a pretext to hide the intent etc (this largely failed BTW - except among guilible Turks and other true believers in the great lie etc. And CoolCat asks why did they stop with the job incomplete? My response - where now is the nation of Armenia in Anatolia? Where is the presence of the vibrant Armenian people in the lands inhabited by them for thousands of years? (also Coolcat is claiming that millions of Armenians were in this area after the Genocide - funny - as most Genocide deniers [falsely] claim there were barely one million Armenians in Anatolia to begin with....And I fail to see the validity of any of your other points here (ASALA and the rest...). You talk about so-called death threats against those opposing the claim of Genocide - I respond - just because one Turk attempted to kill the Pope does it make all Turks pope-killers? I also think that the recent issue of Turkey prosecuting those who have spoken out regarding the genocide in Turkey is far more relevant. Here we have a nation denying its history and internally enforcing such false belief through laws restricting freedom of speech while at the same time such a nation is sponsoring academics with preconditions of acceptance of the official history as promulgated by Turkey - pathetic. This shameful record must be highlighted and exposed in Wikipedia for the casual reader to truly understand what is going on here and so that a proper understanding of the degree of denial and the fact that this is essentially an offical government sponsored version of Holocaust denial applied to the Armenian Genocide. -- THOTH 18:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Genocide denialism is just as valid as a POV as Holocaust denialism - there is no difference - only that in the case of the Armenian Genocide the Government (and people) that is the sucessor to those responsible for the criminal acts has never been fully called to task in the international arena and the (Turkish) Government and society is lacking in maturity and modernity and believes that they can continue to attempt to rerite history in a way that perpetuates false hyper-nationalistic and racist nation building myths at the expense of truth. They will only suceed in perpetuation of this Genocide if those of us who know the truth allow their falsities and distortions to remain unchallenged and if we fail in propoerly and thouroughly explaining the history and events so that the ignorant cannot be fooled by the lies this government and its nationalistic suppports attempt to perpetuate. -- THOTH 15:03, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
-- THOTH 21:41, 8 September 2005 (UTC)==Coolcat recent change==
I have reverted Coolcat change, because relocation is not an alternative, and is not used as alternative for the term Armenian genocide. It is entirly a different position. It is like adding in the entry Quantum Mechanic, Super String as an alternative term for the words Quantum Mechanic. I have tried to explain him those things, but he would not listen. Relocation is not inclusive and is another thesis, another interpretation, this entry is about the position called Armenian genocide, and also includes its critics, for this reason the term "Armenian relocation" can not be used as alternative term. Fadix 00:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
-- Cool Cat Talk 15:23, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Those articles of course contradict Coolcat thesis that the term Armenian relocation is an alternative to the word Armenian genocide.
Let examine Coolcat “sources.”
What Coolcat did was to search “Armenian relocation” and then, finding those, he didn’t bothered reading what he found. Using the same logic, I can for instance search “Super String” and finding that, I would claim that I have found an alternative term to what is called Quantum Mechanic, which of course is ridiculous.
The first link, present the official Turkish government translation of Ottoman said archives(There are records in the German archives that show some of them to be manipulated, but that is another story for now). As I said previously, the official Turkish government translation of the word that Halacoglu translate as relocation, is deportation. The link Coolcat present is in fact what I have been saying… one can search on that page, the word “deportation” and he will see that the large majority of the translations were “deportation,” in fact, as I said, the term itself means forced evacuation, and has a second definition which means destroying the enemy by way of kicking them out. The etymology is Arabic, and I have proposed to Coolcat to ask an Arabic speaking about this, and he will see that they will confirm it.
Coolcat in fact, did not pay attention to what was in this link, let refer to the No. 71 document that those in charge of the archives published by mistake without paying attention that it was about the special organization and their order to kill Armenians. If Coolcat has the official Volume published in Ankara in 1994, titled: “Osmanli Belgelerinde Ermeniler” it is on p. 69. But as I am sure that he does not have the volume itself, let refer to the one that is in the first link he provides.
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/yayin/osmanli/Armenians_inottoman/2b_071.htm
It is a matter of fact, that all the translation of the Ottoman Turkish is not presented there.
Let post the full translation.
“It has recently been reported that massacres of Armenians and Christians without distinction as to sect have been organized within the province, and that in Mardin, for example, some seven hundred people from among the Armenians and other Christian inhabitants were recently taken outside of the city at night and, with due authorization, slaughtered like sheep by those individuals who had been brought from Diyarbakir, and that the total of those killed to date in these massacres is estimated at two thousand persons, and that there are fears that, if a speedy and definite end is not put to this, then the Muslim inhabitants of neighboring provinces will rise up and engage in a general slaughter of Christians. As it is not appropriate that the disciplinary and administrative measures adopted with regard to the Armenians be extended to the other Christians, [this situation] will have a very negative efect on public opinion; consequently, [it is directed that] such practices which threaten the lives of Christians indiscriminately [must] be stopped immediately and a report of the situation be provided.”
This is what the Turkish historian Halil Berktay says about this particular record.
“…he isn't calling for an end to what is being done to the Armenians, but rather calling for massacres against other Christians to be prevented. In the first sentence, he explains, and even reminds, that massacres have been organized. He states that, in the most recent incidents in Mardin, some 700 Armenians and other Christians have been slaughtered `like sheep', and that thus a total of 2 thousand people have been killed. He refers to those doing the killing as `the people who were earlier transferred from Diyarbakir'; if this is not a reference to the `special organization' I cited in the interview published on 9 October, what is it? He states as well the fear that the Muslim population in neighboring provinces will rise up and slaughter all the Christians. He notes this not as a mere claim, but rather as actual information: he says that `it has been reported'. Let's look at the second sentence: He says that the `disciplinary and administrative measures' applied to the Armenians are not appropriate for application to other Christians, and should be halted immediately. Does he say `Don't kill the Armenians either'? No, he doesn't say this. Does he say that `We only ordered deportations; what are these massacres?'? He says nothing of the sort. Only, the word `katliam' (`massacre') repeated several times in the first sentence becomes `Ermeniler hakkinda ittihaz edilen tedabir - i inzibatiye ve siyasiye' (`the disciplinary and administrative measures adopted with regard to the Armenians') in the second sentence.” Those in charge of the archives, when they have decided to include this in the volume, knew that people that would read it would think that this record will show that the Ottoman government was taking measures to protect the Armenians. But again, it has been established during the Court Martial, that the Ottoman government was using vague terms such as “measures” to mean extermination, the term deportation was even equated with the term extermination. Also, those in charge, thought that people that will read this statement, will not understand who were those brought for the purposes of the massacres, if they did not knew anything about the special organization.
Also, the records in the first link Coolcat present are known to have been altered, and I have given one example of such cases, when for the same record of 90%-10% population quota, the German transcription placed the 90% to be destroyed, while the version in the Ankara volume, it is replaced by “deportation.”
The second link, Coolcat present, is the “research” of Halacoglu, in which, it is claimed that only 400 thousand Armenians were moved, and that only 50 thousand died. Still, this in no way show us that Armenian relocation is an alternative for the word Armenian genocide, but rather that the movement of population is translated by Halacoglu as relocation and not deportation.
The third link, is again a “research” by Halacoglu, as the number of Armenians returning back, it does not show, that “Armenian relocation” is an alternative term for the words “Armenian genocide.”
The forth link, is a known racist website, and even there, the link Coolcat present, does not show that the term “Armenian relocation” is used as a synonym for the thesis called “Armenian genocide.” As I said, it is a thesis in itself, and could maybe have its own entry.
I will even not bother opening the website armenianreality.com, it is a racist website and is far from being credible, for no matter what they claim. The choices of the domain name itself show us how screwed up are those that have build it. Does anyone see me using sites with names like turkishlies.com, Turkishreality.com ?
The fifth link, I already answered, the sixth, doesn’t still present any statements, that “Armenian relocation” is a synonym to call the theses “Armenian genocide,” the seventh neither. Number 8. shows the quite opposite, and Number 9, is again Halacoglu theses, and does not show the term being used to mean “Armenian genocide.”
To conclude, as I have shown, the official Turkish translation, used in their own Volume, is deportation, even if it was relocation, still, wanting that to be an alternative word, is to misunderstand why alternative words are used. “Armenian relocation” is a thesis alone, which can have its entry… which can start by something such: “It is a thesis that propose that Armenians were removed to be resettled, rather than being deported or forcibly evacuated, this position is maintained by some Turkish scholars, etc.” Fadix 18:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose that Coolcat and others who believe (in the fairy tales) that he does open a new Wikipedia section entitled "the Armenian relocation" - perhaps somewhere between the section on the Brothers Grim and the one concerning Mother Hubbard. I expect that we might also see there a section submitted by David Irving concerning the progressive civil rights laws of the Third Reich and perhaps a ethnogrophy entry concerning "Mountain Turks" (and their first class treatment as citizens of Turkey...)....in the meantime let us post factually in the section correctly and accuratly titled - "The Armenian Genocide".....-- THOTH 20:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Fadix? Is that you Fadix? What Armenian deportation/relocation? I assume(d) that you are aware that the "deportation" orders and sunsequant justifications and untruthful explanations were mearly a cover for Genocide. Are you forgeting Ackam's analysis - where he references the fact that no provisions were provided for any type of relocation/deporation - that the lack of such and the conduct of the Turkish Gendarmes and Special Organization in herding the convoys through desolate reagions and encouraging and participating in their depravation is proof enough of intent....And what sort of "deportation/relocation" of a population includes only the women, children and elderly? What about the men? Aren't men part of the population - and wouldn't one expect that men would be neccesary and included if there were some intent to actually move a population? These facts, as well as the confirmed existance and admissions regarding secret orders and the intent of the "deportation" (including the fact that those of Western Anatolia were also "deported" etc) are further proof of the fallacy of any claim that there was in fact a "relocation" - that there was any intent other then slaughter and annhiliation of the Armenian people/population/nation. Need I also remind reader of the thousands of eyewitness - offical government, missionary, survivor and otherwise testimony that describes countless acts of slaughter and deprivation - the same over and over and over - and the pattern of Ottoman government action that demonstrates clear intent. This was a barbaric Genocide consiting of massacres and killings of innocents coldly enacted and conducted for political purposes and I am sick and tired of attempts by the Turkish Government and their various supporters to attemtp to whitewash these crimes. And those of us who know and understand these facts should not tolerate these shameful efforts to deny the facts and this Wikipedia article needs to be strengthened and not diluted and the planning and enactment and subsequant and continuing denial of these crimes needs to be explained and thoroughly illustrated. The current article is both insuficiant in this regard and is severely comprimised by wishy washy and unclear text. Facts are facts - the support exists - the denial is thoroughly discredited - and this needs to be presented as such. Likewise the history leading up to the Genocide and the events following require much better presentation to allow the reader who is unfamiliar with tis history to properly understand the answers to the questions of why - in addition to understanding the how - and ultimatly of course it needs to clearly present (comitted by) who. -- THOTH 14:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Sure Fadix - it would be appropriate to be presented/discussed in a section entitled: "Denial of the Armenian Genocide". To present it any other way would be actively promoting falsehood. Is this Wiki? -- THOTH 17:33, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
It is imaterial whether or not you recognize anything. The fact that it is well documented that Lemkin coined the term precisely to describe what occured to the Armenians makes use of the term genocide entirely legitimate - in addition to it clearly meeting all other stated criteria for genocide - UN definitions and optherwise. So you have no point here except as a troll who is trying to disrupt things and obscure the truth based on a very specific agenda. Again - the comparisons to those who deny the Holocaust are most appropriate here. There is more then sufficient evidence - eyewitness - official, unofficial, confessions, trial verdicts and so and and so forth that paint the picture of what occured most clearly. That there exists a position that seeks to deny the truth of what occured - that this position is solely held by the Government of Turkey, variuous Turksih nationals, and researchers that are directly sponsored by the Turkish Government - the most prominent by a Government institution (Turkish Historical Society) founded specifically to bolster an historic perspective designed to justify pre-concieved historagraphy supporting a propogandistic political position concerning the Turkish State and Turkish history - real and imagined - is also fact and needs to be fully explained in this or a related article. These are all pertinent circumstances surounding the Armenian Genocide - the truth of it - its extreme level of documentation from a mirad of sources - and the persistent political campaign of denial - including such efforts as yours on this very site. In the meantime I concur with the suggestion that a comprehensive listing of scholars and scholarly organizations with a position concerning the Armenian Genocide should be itemized.-- THOTH 21:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I reverted the first change made by the new member, because it was against the principle that Wikipedia is not here to say what is the truth, but what is said about the event. Fadix 23:39, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide
So what do you suggest we do with the second paragraph as it is quite messy. -- Cool Cat Talk 23:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC) ~
To have productive and controlled article creation or modification all the users should aggree on the same terms and conditions. If some users edit article without discussion, when most of users are aggred that every change should be discussed, those undiscussed changes should be reverted back (rejected) unconditionally. Rules should work equally for all the users without exceptions. So, Fadix has done clearly right thing which should be appreciated, especially because of his revert contradicts to his position. We should follow his example. -- Gvorl 14:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Several facts in connection with the genocide are a matter of ongoing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government rejects that it was genocide, on the alleged basis that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.
Despite this thesis, most Armenian, Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the massacres were a case of what is termed genocide.
For example, most Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll. The events is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust. A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted the authenticy of the Armenian Genocide.
Several facts in connection with the incident are a matter of ongoing dispute among scholars as well as beeng a diplomatic dispute between Armenia, and Turkey, as well as other parts of the international community) dispute. Although there is a level of agreement in the events leading to the incident, several scholars, as well as the Turkish government rejects the classification " genocide", and argue that the deaths among the Armenians, were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but from the result of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I as it is observed elsewhere in Europe as well. Despite this thesis, a significant portion of scholars follow the theisis referencing the incident as a genocide.
I realise you do not want such a change, what alternative do you suggest? I have coppied the actual suggestion from the degraded conversation, cleaner start. -- Cool Cat Talk 11:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Calling the Armenian Genocide an "incident" is akin to calling WWII an incident. This is entirely incorrect. An "incident" is a specific singularity - like smashing a plane into a building. The enactment of the Armenian Genocide - the various wide ranging plans, actions, deceptions and such taken by the CUP, Ottoman Governemnt officials and the current government of Turkey itself and it s supportors such as yourself - causing the continuous great suffering and abuse and untimely and often gruesome death experienced by hundreds of thousands of Armenians - by nearly all Armenians in Anatolia - those who survived and those who died and were killed etc - cannot be cheapened by calling such a mere "incident". And neather can you cheapen the memory of such criminal and vicious actions for the decendents of those Armenian who survived such times and persevered in the face of the brutal and criminal Ottoman Government campaign to eliminate them.
Likewise it is an entirely incorrect assertion that the "dispute" is between Armenia and Turkey. First it is not so much a "dispute" as an attempt to revise the historical record along false and misleading lines to obscure the true history and the complicity of the Turkish government and people in these shamful acts. And this effort is being entirely undertaken by the Government of Turkey and (so-called) scholars that are in its pay and/or otherwise beholden to it. It is important that any mention of a "dispute" make these fact most clear. It also needs to be made most clear the amount of overwhelming support for the belief/contention or what have you among actual scholars and specifically Genocide scholars, Holocaust scholars, and historians in general that fully accepts the fact of the Armenian Genocide as such (and the CUP/Ottoman Turkish government as instigators responsible for such and the same and the Turkish and Kurdish people of the time as responsible for carrying out the actual acts of such) and again it needs to be made very clear that the word "genocide" itself has largely come about as a descriptor for precisely the series of actions, events and the result of the CUP/Ottoman Turkish campaign which was undertaken to and largely succeeded in its objectives to eliminate Armenians, Armenian presence, Armenian culture from Anatolia (and to plunder the assets of such people). The evidence of this planning - of the intentions - of the methodoloogy and of the result has beeen thoroughly and painstakingly documented and has been verifyied by accepted scholarship that is not serioulsy questioned by serious and objective scholars in any real sense - and the attempts to deny such - on the part of the current government of Turkey and those Turkish and non-Turkish (yet beholden to the Government of Turkey) academics to deny such evidence - such facts - such real history - is a most shamful and deceptive attempt to promote lies over truth and it constitutes a series of acts that themselves are properly characterized as part of the Genocide itself - that what they - and you - are attempting to do - is in fact a perpetuation of the Armenian Genocide. These facts need to be made clear in this presentation - not your weasel words that do nothing but expose the corruption of your thought and the uglyness of what you are attempting here in this article. -- THOTH 14:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
As a wikifan, i didn't change or add something in the page, mainly, because i don't feel that i have enough knowledge about the subject. But, there are many items which i feel 'uncomfortable' about the article.... -Motivation part is missing, altough it is a fact that there were pogroms against the Armenians, before WWI, effects of Armenian nationalism and revolts are not taken into account.... -Peak point for the genocide Diaspora is considered as 1915-1916, but all mentioned genocide Diaspora accounts are from east regions of present day Turkey, if it is a campaign of extermination against Armenians fueled by nationalist hatred, why Armenians in west and central parts of Anatolia are not effected by this campaign?.... -Van Resistance chapter conflicts with military history chronicles. Generally, it is considered that, when it was clear that, Imperial Russian Army was to capture Van in a few days, already organized groups like Dashnaks, revolted and they had gained the control of the city, the city was captured by Russians and Armenian units attached, on the 16th day of the revolt.... -Ottoman Government's decision of displacing Armenian citizens to southern parts of the country, seems reasonable, if you look from an administrative and military point of view (not humanitarian).... -Capacity of Ottoman Army to relocate huge numbers of civilians has to be discussed, please note that 1915 is the year that, Ottoman armies were fighting in Gallipoli with around 300.000 casualties, in Iraq with around 100.000 casualties, in Sarikamis with around 100.000 casualties, also, in Sinai and Palestine against British and was conducting a war in Yemen and Arabia against Arab rebels. Actual figures of Ottoman military presence has to be included in the article, it makes the distinction of 'massacre' and 'genocide'. If you consider the 1927 census of Turkey was 13.6 millions, i have doubts about how much manpower Ottoman Army could field for an organized genocide.... -Transportation system of Ottoman Empire has to be mentioned, without any railways available, displacing huge numbers of civilian without adequate food, water supplies, means of transportation and with very poor protection against gangs (eastern regions of Anatolia had lawless gangs even until 1960-1970 period), clearly would turn to 'death marches'.... -Relocating Armenian civilian population in the deserts of Syria caused definitly a disaster, considering the Ottoman Empire was at the brink of collapse and even couldn't feed, dress and equip their own armies.... Ottomans, served well for the Germans, by opening a new front against Russia in the Caucasus region, so the Russia could not use valuable resources against Germanny in the Eastern Front, but this, combined with Armenian desire for self-governing, like Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians had previously managed, resulted with huge losses of Armenian civilians.... Those events are not well documented as Holocaust (Germans were definitly better with archiving then the Ottomans), the losses and sufferings are beyond discussion, but, the main notion to call the events as 'Genocide', is debated and will be debated.... For wikipedia, as an open source, it is very difficult to maintain an article, disputed so much, but i propose to add above mentioned headlines as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.42.16.43 ( talk) 19:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I possibly won't debate or contribute to the article much. And I don't care much what you call hundreds of thousands civilians death since it is a great loss and tragedy already. As long as I know estimated realistic numbers of Armenian casualties were at least 300.000 and might be 500.000 which means a terrible massacre even if it is death by cold in winter, hunger or bullet. Rest are possibly forced conversions or such. The transportation system were bad it is true lots of Turkish people died on ships while exchange through Greece in later years too, during war food were not plenty, it was winter, armenians didn't protected well, ... but again that all don't justify such hundreds of thousands citizens' "death march" intentionally-unintentionally or half-intentionally. On the other hand, though it doesn't justify for such a big casualty or forced deportations, Armenian gangs also massacred a huge number of Turkish-Kurdish civilians in the area which is another undeniable fact. Article seems not depicting such events at least by a quick check if I am not mistaken. If I missed such a section just point it out for me. If the article not contains such balancing info it cannot be considered as an WP:NPOV article. Kasaalan ( talk) 15:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Armenian genocide/Archive 5. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about Armenian genocide/Archive 5 at the Reference desk. |
This is my first time adding to a forum, so apologies if I'm going about it incorrectly. This is a response to the comment up above about Talaat Pasha not being involved. In an interview with a journalist sympathetic with the Turkish government, Enver Pasha (not Talaat, that is true, but I doubt one was involved without the other, and Enver uses "we") replied to a question that implied he had little to do with the planning of the massacre. "You are greatly mistaken," he said. "We have this country absolutely under control. I have no desire to shift the blame on our underling and I am entirely willing to accept the responsibility myself for everything that has taken place." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.60.27.69 ( talk) 21:43, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Armenian crimes conducted during the Russia occupation of Eastern Turkey and the mass extermination of the local Muslim and Turkish population is not mentioned with a single word. Strange that people claiming to have been victims of genocide have colonies of 8 million Armenians around the world where according to their theories there should not be a singe Armenian left after 1915. Hittit ( talk) 22:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
The total population of the Ottoman Empire in 1897 was 19,050,307 (History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Volume 2 By Stanford J. Shaw, Ezel K. Shaw pp.240). Armenians numbered just 1 million in 1987, in 1906 it stood at 1,1 million and in 1914 at 1,3 million. By this any suggestion or insinuation of the killing of 2 000 000 Armenians in Ottoman Turkey is not just a lie but shear impossibility. Not did only the population not decline but it in increased +30% in under 20 years. This would hardly be the effect of mass killings.
Assuming that 1,3 million were killed (virtually all exterminated in 1915) would make it impossible to have 8 million Armenians today, even if 500 000 were killed you could not have 8 million Armenians today since this would mean that the Armenian rate of population increase would surpass the population increase of any nation known today on the face of the earth. Hittit ( talk) 07:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
It seems you would like very much so if there was no talk or research on the issue. The sheer lunacy of these genocide claims requires rigorous investigation and provision of concrete evidence. You cannot build a genocide case based on “your word” or what your senile grand mother told or an alleged “traumatic” reproduction frenzy achieving an over 1000% population growth. Are you now saying that fragments of Armenians living in Russia were the main reproduction catapult to achieve the current figure of app. 8 million? How do you explain that 6 out 8 million Armenians live outside Russia and thus are the very descendants of Ottoman Armenians? achieving 6 million would be the normal population growth comparing to other former Ottoman colonies such as Bulgaria and Greece only if the base figure is 1,5 million (or higher) any less than this would suggest long term hormonal treatment to substantially increase Armenian female fertility and capability to bear children. Furthermore, not to mention that pictures of alleged Armenian refugees have also turned out to be actually fleeing Muslims, fabrication of documentation is also more the rule than the exception e.g.., virtually no validated Ottoman documentation (origins if any such later produced are in high doubt) of attempted and intended extermination. Having in mind that Ottoman Archives contains over 11 000 documents on the issue “genocide” researchers have not bother to make any examination of these. Armenian and Russia keep closed their own archives on the subject; most reports of allegations are based on Christian Missionaries highly operational in the area during WW1 or 3rd party accounts as these were in the same fashion instrumental for the propaganda war prior to the Turco-Russian War 1877-1878. Classic “weapons of mass-destruction” scenario paving the way of any major war. Not much has changed in terms of military propaganda since the 19th century. Hittit ( talk) 09:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Not only did the Armenian population increase in Ottoman Turkey between 1887 and 1914 with 30% but some Turkish born Armenians such Calouste Gulbenkian made an immense fortune ripping-off the Ottoman Government in the very years Armenians are claimed to have been mass killed. Hittit ( talk) 21:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Another factual error in this article is that the article claims without citation that the Turkish state claims that the casualties were around 300 thousand which is once again wrong. The Turkish state claims that slightly less than 600 thousand Armenians have died. [5] TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 21:21, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
I heard on the news that the United States recognized the Armenian Genocide as an actual genocide, causing Turkey to remove their ambassador. It was never repeated. Is it actually true that the United States recognized the genocide and is it worth mentioning on the article? 71.129.63.227 ( talk) 16:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I am not interested in the details here, but given what the news says, I wonder what the Turkish Wikipedia version of this page is like. I wonder how it differs from the English (and if there is an Armenian) version. I don't read Turkish and can not be bothered to run the page through Google translate, but if someone with high emotions (say like 4,000 people out there) would like to translate that and comment on the differences it wll make an interesting study in "cross cultural Wikipedia" and may be the beginning of a new field. Another example would be to compare the Japanese and Korean versions of specific periods in history. Then Wikipages will begin to make history by starting a new field. History2007 ( talk) 13:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Denialists? The correct term is exposing the truth, this so called genocide is nothing more than the Weapons of Mass Destruction for which the evidence was presented in the UN and used as a pretext to attack Iraq. I bet in 20 years time when an American shoolchild is asked why did the US attack Iraq the answer would be because Iraq had WMD and was going to use them. Here we are almoust 100 years after the Allied attack agains Turkey during the WWI and we are still debating war propaganda. Hittit ( talk) 08:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
[tabbing over to the left to save space] Back to the historical point of the Blue Book. The Republic of Turkey recently asked the British government to renounce the Blue Book. Unfortunately for Turkey the British government not only denied the request the government firmly stood by the Blue Book as accurate historical testimony. If anyone has anything to say against the Blue Book I would like to hear from you here. Referenced sources only from independent sources only (no Turkish, Armenian, Assyrian or Greek sources). There are numerous Turkish scholars/sources that attempt to discredit the Blue Book by claiming that the testimony was falsified. Their reasoning is that the names of the eye-witness testimonies were with held, because they were still living in the Ottoman Empire and they feared reprisals, however, their names were published independently shortly after the Blue Book was published. More recently an uncensored edition has been published that has integrated the original Blue Book with the names of the eye-witnesses, but it is the identical/same testimony and witnesses that were published shortly after the original events. btw what did you people do to the three paragraph section about the "Blue Book" in this article about the Armenian Genocide? It has completely disappeared. Nipsonanomhmata ( talk) 13:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)