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As a neutral reader I have a vital question. Is this amount of 1.5 million scientifically proven? Or are we reading propaganda? Why 1.5 million? Why is it not 5.000.000? Or 200.000? Or 600.000? Or 1.45 million? Or 2 million? All the sources merely contain statements, there is no source to a scientific research.
What is the methodology behind this 1.5 million? Are those the bodies coming out of graves? Are people who died a natural death included in this? Armenians who starved due to the lack of food which happened universally across the Ottoman Empire during World War I, and considering a similar percentage of Turks and Kurds died of starvage as well, are those included in this number of 1.5 million?
As a neutral reader I feel this article loses a lot of value because of the lack of proper methodology for the most important part of the article: the number of casualties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.75.32.124 ( talk) 18:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for either a proper reply or an edit. The number 1.5 million is based on statements and not a research as far as it's clear in this article, and therefore it is wrong to present it as a fact. Even in the notes there is stated "however, estimates vary from 600,000 to 1,800,000", so it would be nice if the top could be adjusted as well. Furthermore, George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. And Bruce Wein mentioned in one of his articles that "the best contemporary estimates by Armenians or their sympathizers were 300,000-750,000", so it goes as low as 300,000 (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html). I have also repeatedly read in articles about estimates as high as 2,000,000. Therefore the politically correct range should be 300,000 - 2,000,000, but whether you'd like to be politically correct or politically biased is your own choice, the top should be edited, according to the present information in this article to 600,000 - 1,800,000, and politically correct to 300,000 to 2,000,000. --
82.75.32.124 (
talk)
20:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
The 600,000 figure stems from a report Toynbee drafted claiming that 600,000 Armenians died accounts only until 1916, which is merely the first year of the Armenian Genocide. This figure jives with initial reports of 500,000 dead in the first 5 months alone ( [1] [2] [3] [4]). By the end of the Armenian Genocide, those who attest to the death of 1.5 million Armenians do not include only the number of Ottoman Armenian citizens but Russian Armenian citizens as well since the Ottoman government took the willful steps of annihilating not only the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, but outside of its dominions as well (i.e. Russia, First Republic of Armenia, and etc.). German Military Plenipotentiary in the Ottoman Empire Otto von Lossow proclaimed that the "The Turks have embarked upon the total extermination of the Armenians in Transcaucasia", "Talaat's government party wants to destroy all Armenians not only in Turkey, but also outside Turkey", and that "On the basis of all the reports and news coming to me here in Tiflis there hardly can be any doubt that the Turks systematically are aiming at the extermination of the few hundred thousand Armenians whom they left alive until now."( [5] [6] [7]) Even the international community reported massacres that were made outside of the dominions of the Ottoman empire in 1918 (see this New York Tribune article). In light of this, allies to the Ottoman Empire, such as German major Carl Franz Endres who served in the Turkish army, estimated the number of Ottoman Armenian deaths as 1.2 million, which excludes Russian Armenian deaths (Carl Franz Endres, Die Türkei. Munich, CH Beck, 1918, p. 161). The French ran their own investigative commissions after World War I and proclaimed the death of 1.5 million in 1919 ( [8]). Most sources, if not all, attest to the death of at least a million Ottoman Armenian citizens. 1.5 million is the widely accepted figure, as already mentioned in the article. If we assess the number of Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1914 as 1.9 to 2 million, these numbers are fairly accurate with respects to the additional hundreds of thousands of Russian Armenians that were massacred as well. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 23:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, it is a proper one and I appreciate it, but still I see some flaws. First of all, all the "500,000 deaths" sources refer to news articles from the Allied side who were engaged in a world war against the Ottoman Empire, and more importantly, without a clear source (to for example a research). It is safe to assume that this is propaganda to influence the public opinion, especially considering none of the articles criticize the fact that the number 500,000 is unfounded. Just like news articles from the Nazi's are not reliable sources to criticize the Jews, news articles from the Allied side are (to me at least) not fully reliable to judge the actions of either the Germans or the Ottomans. I have not read the books you refer to, but I will read them and leave a reply here as soon as I see a chance to do so. And I know a lot of sources refer to 1.5 million, but a thousand years ago most sources said the earth was flat. What I am really interested in is where this number 1.5 million comes from, because as far as it seems to me it comes from a statement that is thrown in public by either a person or a news paper, and not a research. By the way, the news article of the French investigation is impossible to read because the file is really too small, do you perhaps have other sources for this article?
Furthermore, in 1912 the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was counted by the Armenian Patriarchate(!) as 1,018,000 ( [9]). Nowhere in history has ever happened that such a large population doubled within 3 to 6 years. Was the census of the Armenian Patriarchate that lead to 1 million a lie or is the estimation of 1.9-2.0 million a lie? And that statements(!) claim Ottomans were interested in killing Armenians outside of their empire is interesting, but fortunately that was not within their power. The Russian political and military situation was far superior to that of the Ottomans in 1915-1918, without the Russian permission Talaat Pasha's army could not have operated within Russia. And as far as I know the Ottoman Army has never operated on Russian territory on the other side of the front, where they were losing battle after battle. So involving this sounds to me as ridiculous as blaming deaths within the United States on the Germans, the Germans simply had no power in the US just as Ottomans had no power within Russia. Perhaps these Russian Armenians died on the front with a weapon in their hands? I hope you understand that in that case they can not be counted in the amount of casualties of the genocide. How did Carl Franz Endres get to this number? Under what circumstances did he say this? During the war? Or afterwards when he was hoping for amnesty?
I am sorry for having so many questions and remarks, but as I said, a thousand years ago everybody on earth thought the earth was flat, I am seriously interested in the real situation with a solid undeniable foundation. -- 82.75.32.124 ( talk) 12:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
"In summary, here are my convictions. The Armenian deportations were carried out in a manner entirely unbecoming to humanity, civilization, and government. The massacre and annihilation of the Armenians, and the looting and plunder of their properties were the result of the decision of the Central Committee of Ittihad and Terakki. The butchers of human beings, who operated in the command zone of the Third Army, were procured and engaged by Dr. Bahattin Şakir. The high ranking governmental officials did submit to his directives and order...He stopped by at all major centers where he orally transmitted his instructions to the party's local bodies and to the governmental authorities."
@ PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made?
@
PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made?
Diranakir (
talk)
19:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Diranakir: First off, the ip user you are describing is a new user. How would he know what guidelines to follow in the beginning? Also, that is what the unsigned comment bot is for. You cannot just discount the content of his comment just because he is a new user. Do not bite the new user. As to your question on what statistic should be used, I am okay with whatever statistic is decided upon as long as there is a consensus on it. Personally, I would prefer to describe the death statistic controversy similar to the way it is in the article, only with the new information from the ip user condensed down into article section size. In other words, all I am saying is that we should just simply agree on a statistic and go with it. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@ PointsofNoReturn: As I said, 1 to 1.5 million is based on consensus. Therefore pleading for consensus is misplaced. I do expect that most new users would check the guidelines. I am not "biting a new user", which implies intimidating a naive newcomer. This new user seems to have a lot to say and the determination to say it and I have no power over him except my reasoning. I don't know what you mean when you say he signed his latest posts. I don't see where. Please clarify. On "considering" his objections, I would expect a man who has so many objections to have some idea of what the right figure would be. He should indicate that over a full signature. Otherwise all we have is a flotilla of objections leading to oblivion. Diranakir ( talk) 00:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I am really happy over the recent copy-edits by various users over the content of the article. I hope this collective effort will bring about the GA status the article will hopefully attain. However, I find the refs the biggest concern here. They are really disorganized and not formatted correctly. It really pains me to see the article this way. If the article doesn't have a consistent format in terms of references, I don't think it'll pass FA. For example: see ref 64 and 65. These two refs refer to the page number right beside the citation number in the end of the sentence. While, on the other hand, ref 101 has the page number in the reference itself. So we need to make a very wise decision as to which format should we use if we want to get this past FA. I can assure you, once the inconsistencies with the references is solved, the FA process will be smooth-sailing. @ Diranakir: Armen Ohanian ( talk · contribs): thoughts? Étienne Dolet ( talk) 06:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC) The references are really messy, to put it mildly. I believe that the best and faster way would be to unify the references to the author-title-place-editorial-year-page format, which I have seen used in many places (e.g. Vahakn Dadrian, History of the Armenian Genocide, London-Providence, Berghahn Books, 1995, p. 270), without the ridiculous page number in the reference or any other thing that requires additional formatting.
Excuse me for omitting to sign my post above. Re Talat vs. Talaat: Turkish Talat (with the caret) seems to indicate that the form with double "a" should be the primary choice (cf. the Armenian form "Taleat"). It appears that the form "Talat" is a simplification of the Turkish form by eliminating the caret (^). Armen Ohanian ( talk) 04:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Then the question is how to do make the changes. Is there a "Change All" option, or must it be done instance by instance? Diranakir ( talk) 03:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
To Ohanian, Dolet, or others: Both spellings (as above) occur in the main article. This should be resolved in favor of one or the other. Also," Erzurum" is used in the title of the WP article on the city. My assumption has always been that it is "Erzerum". Your thoughts and proposals. Thanks. Diranakir ( talk) 01:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC) "Erzurum" is the Turkish name of the city. "Erzerum" appears to be the Westernized transliteration used until the 1920s, which corresponds to the Armenian spelling Էրզրում. Armen Ohanian ( talk) 02:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 ( talk · contribs) 06:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | Needs copy edit, suggest GOCE. |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | Referencing not IAW MOS. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | Not all paragraphs and even some sections are uncited. |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | quick failed, does not meet criterion 1a, 2a and 2b. Remaining criterion not fully assessed. Needs a thorough copy edit (suggest approach be made to the Guild of Copy Editors), citation system needs to reflect MOS, and in an article on this topic, all paragraphs must have at least one citation to a reliable source. |
@ Tiptoethrutheminefield we could have it peer rewieved and create a task group ? kazekagetr 20:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Things like: "It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as "abandoned goods" for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsorily removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods ... If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can't do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it."
Don't seem NPOV and weren't in quotations in the article. I'm considering deleting this if nobody has any objections. There are also quite a few things I find questionable that I would like to change or delete all together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.121.121 ( talk) 09:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this translation could be a lot better. The original Turkish text just flows when I read it; the English seems somewhat whacky in comparison and harder to understand. (I assure you I'm fluent in English.) Someone who's fluent enough in (19th-20th century) Turkish to catch all nuance in the original text, and also skilled in English prose so they can write a suitable English equivalent, might want to take a jab at it. On the meanwhile please correct the spelling mistake "piece" to "peace", and change the word "luxury" to "comfort" or "tranquility" or so.
For the record, here's my attempt at a mostly literal translation without entirely butchering English (but it might still read awkwardly): "The Armenian nation who I tried to eliminate to its last member for trying to erase my homeland from history [as prisoners of (OR) by surrendering to] the enemy in the most horrible and painful days of my homeland; the Armenian nation who I today want to bring to peace and comfort since they take shelter in the generosity of the Turkish nation... If you remain loyal to the Turkish homeland I will do every good deed I can. If you once again attempt to betray the Turkish and the Turkish homeland by getting involved with certain senseless Komitadjis I will order my armies who surround your whole country and leave not a single Armenian to breathe on this earth; pull yourself together."
Some notes:
I end the first (compound) sentence in ellipsis (instead of a period) because it indeed lacks a verb; he's rather calling out to the Armenian nation with those two compounded sentences which I separated with a semicolon (as opposed to a comma in the original).
The part in brackets is very ambiguous to me in the original text and could be translated to either phrase in English (the phrase "esir olarak" can mean both "as a prisoner" and "by surrendering"). It also has the second ambiguity (not resolved in English by choosing either phrase) that is who the subject of the clause is (is it the Armenians who surrender or are imprisoned, or the Ottomans?), so there is four possible interpretations in total: have Armenians once intentionally surrendered themselves to enemy forces to disadvantage the Ottomans? Were they already imprisoned but then helped the enemy forces? Or have they just generally contributed to the surrender of the Ottomans, which led to a risk of them getting erased from history? Or did they do something while the Ottomans were already (figuratively) imprisoned by enemy nations and under threat of this "erasure from history"? Someone who knows the context of the text might be able to tell.
In "betray the Turkish" I use the word "Turkish" as an implicit plural/group/nation/culture; this is most close to the original text which just uses "Türk" without pluralization; it could have used the plural "Türkler" if it wanted to speak of "the Turks". (I also considered just writing "betray the Turk", but I think "betray the Turkish" is more fitting.)
In the last sentence, the word "country" is not to be misinterpreted to mean that they have a government. I don't know if there's a better alternative to the word "country" here; I considered "land" but that doesn't carry the implication of a nation being bound to that land, whereas the original uses the word "memleket" which is a bit more like "homeland". I chose not to use "homeland" because that was previously used as a translation for "vatan". When I think about it, perhaps the only difference between "vatan" and "memleket" is that the former sounds a bit more glorified, though.
And lastly, the last part is better translated as "pull yourself together" and not "make up your mind" because the Turkish phrase that is originally used literally translates to "put your mind back in your head" and does not imply there being any decision to make; not even sarcastically.
Translation is frickin' difficult! 2003:51:4A04:D063:213:E8FF:FEED:36FB ( talk) 21:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This article isn't set on being a GA anyways. I don't mind using this translation [18]:
"The Armenian folk that I tried to kill to the last person, since they tried to enslave a nation to the enemy in the most terrible and painful days of my country, the Armenian folk that I am offering peace, comfort since they take refuge of the Turkish nation’s high mind… If you stick together with the Turkish homeland, I would do whatever I can for your country but if you obey some group of unconscientious Armenians who would betray the Turks and their homeland again, I will give an order to the armies that are surrounding your country to not leave any Armenians still breathing on the earth. Be more reasonable."
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 02:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Has anyone here considered -- or, agree with -- merging the Armenian Genocide page along with the Greek and Assyrian genocide pages. After all, they were not three separate events, but rather, three different national histories. Renowned genocide scholar Hannibal Travis and even the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) refer to the events as a genocide of the Ottoman Empire's Christian population - Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian.
another resource site link for the Armenian Genocide should be added. its 100% related and here are the details:
Site Name: GenoPosts.com URL: http://www.genoposts.com/
Sosarkissian 22:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Just a heads up, I can't change this myself, because the article is protected, in the first paragraph (3rd line) the article states ″historic homeland in the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey during and after World War.″, Obviously it should say World War I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.24.102.221 ( talk) 19:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it is important to make clear that the Genocide of 1915 was brought about by the Imperial Government (Ottoman Empire) ( Three Pashas government}. It is just a fact that is not included yet, but should be replaced with the much more complex article link of Ottoman Empire for any events after 1908, as the Ottoman Empire spans many centuries and this would be too much of a distraction for the reader to get immersed into; I replaced the links I found appropiate, please do this further if necessary. -- 92slim ( talk) 23:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
In a report entitled " Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", which discusses but is not limited to the subject and was addressed to his political party, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun or Dashnaktsutyun), Armenia's first prime minister Hovhannes Katchaznouni defines the events as one would define a war.
He criticizes the aspect of the Armenian side, stating that "We overestimated the ability of the Armenian people, its political and military power, and overvalued the extent and significance of the services our people rendered to the Russians. And by overestimating our very humble worth and merit we were naturally exaggerating our hopes and expectations."
He also states that "The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question." These statements are consistent with defining the events as war which included bilateral slaughters, but not genocide.
As a result, it may be concluded that it is obvious that many people lost their lives from both opposed sides. It can be more on one side and less on the other, depending on their military and political powers.
But to define the events as genocide is not fair; and highly reduces the credibility of wikipedia.
94.121.70.191 ( talk) 08:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The mass exiles, deportations, and massacres that took place during the summer and autumn of 1915 were fatal blows to the Armenian Cause. Half of historical Armenia - the same half where the fundamentals of our independence would be laid according to the traditions inherited by European diplomacy - that half was deprived of Armenians. In the Armenian provinces of Turkey there were no Armenians. The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question.
The proof is, however – and this is crucial – that the struggle began decades ago against which the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia.
This was the terrible fact.
Civilized humanity might very well be shaken with rage in the face of this horrifying crime. Statesmen might utter menacing words against criminal Turkey. “Blue”, “yellow”, “orange” books and papers might be published accusing them. Divine punishment against the criminals might be invoked in churches by clergymen of all denominations. The press of all countries might be filled with horrifying descriptions and details and the evidence of eye-witnesses...Let them say this or that, but the work was already done and words would not revive the corpses fallen in the Arabian deserts, restore the ruined hearths, repopulate the country now become desolate. The Turks knew what they ought to do and did it.
Claiming that he is trying to uphold Wikipedia's credibility, the initiator of the present topic is avoiding a legitimate discussion by ignoring the ordinary meaning of words and then hiding behind the results. "It was the most definite technique" does not equal "any action that can take place in war", or "numerous upsetting events". That is as clear as the nose on one's face. Diranakir ( talk) 20:21, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for kind replies. I will be re-presenting my thoughts and opinions about the subjects that have been mentioned. But first, I have to inform you that I will expand this thread further later, as I do not have enough time for this right now. So, please keep in touch.
1 - My primary motivation to start this discussion is to point out that, a highly significant report of the first prime minister of Armenia is not -and should be- referred in the article, if it is intended to make the article comprehensive. About the report, I also would be happy to hear your opinions about why the report " Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", by the first prime minister of Armenia, had been removed from libraries and banned in Armenia.
2 - As for the "anachronism" claim about the term genocide; I do not think I have made any imply that the term genocide had already been coined in 1915 (to be more clear: in my initial message by saying ""but it does not refer to "genocide"", I mean it does not refer to "genocide" (one should not take he message that it means genocide)); which means I am not trying to be funny.
3 - I hope you are a little bit outdated in the Ergenekon; otherwise what you stated would be a pure intentional denigration. The Ergenekon trial -after over 6 years - is proven to be a coup against people who are -after all these years they were sentenced- declared as not guilty, including Mehmet Perincek. All so-called convicted persons are acquitted, by the verdict of the Constitutional Court (highest court) of Turkey. You can check out the list of illegality examples in Ergenekon trials. As a matter of fact, the famous prosecutor of the trial, Zekeriya Oz, and judges, president of the court Hasan Hüseyin Özese, and member judges Sedat Sami Haşıloğlu and Hüsnü Çalmuk are now being prosecuted; for the faults in the Ergenekon trials. They are believed to be connected to the Fethullah Gülen (so called religious) order.
4 - I refuse the term "denialist", since one can only deny a truth. One can not deny the ambiguous outcomes of a controversial discussion, however these can be agreed or disagreed.
5 - There are many former "denialists" of Armenian origin, but one of the last of them was Hrant Dink, an iconic person of the Armenian community in Turkey, the editor of the Agos magazine, who was murdered in 2007. He interpreted the 1915 events with courage, Hrant Dink. Dink claimed that the Kurds were now falling in for the traps that the Armenians fell in the past. He says in his last speech in Malatya Business Peoples Association: "English, Russian, German, and French are playing the same game again in this land. In the past, the Armenian people trusted them, thought they would rescue them from the cruelity of the Ottoman. But they were wrong, because they finished their business and they left. And they left brothers of this land as enemies". He claimed that the US is now playing the same game, and this time Kurds are falling for it. He said "That is America. Comes, minds its own business, and when he is done, leaves. And then people here, scuffle within themselves". [1] [2] Before you accuse the imaginary Ergenekon organisation, let me add that the chief of police in Trabzon, Ramazan Akyürek, who condoned the murder to happen, had officially been filed as being a member of the Fethullah Gülen so-called religious order.
6 - Raphael Lemkin may be an innovative person, and like any person, he may be wrong, or deceived, or ignorant. If he chose 1915 events as an example, I believe that was his mistake. Please check the European Council of Human Rights report mentioned in the above topic The controversy about the 1915 events may only be ended by an objective, unbiased and thorough study by a council of scientists, not by talented individuals. I believe one day, these studies will be made and the fact that the events were "carnage made by both sides and effecting both sides", but not an "unilateral genocide", will be revealed.
7 - Being ignorant is not as difficult as knowing. But pretending not to know is even harder. I hope our children will meet, and be "brothers" as Dink would say, in a world where blood group is more important than ethnical identities.
Best regards, 94.121.64.98 ( talk) 12:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
References
In "Hamidian massacres" text of the photo: "Armenian massacres in E..."?! May be you want to say: Killed Armenians in E...? or Massacred Armenians in E...? 96.247.108.45 ( talk) 00:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Armenian Genocide's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "akcam":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 15:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
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edit request to
Armenian Genocide has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In reference to note 147, it is quoted a sentence from Ataturk saying
[...] the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule
While the actual statement from Ataturk was
These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule
As you can check in the document linked by the note itself. There is a big difference between the two as in the first case the subject seems to be the "Millions of Christians" while in fact it was the Young Turk Party.
I therefore request to quote the sentence in its whole integrity
http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/docs/Kemal%20Ataturk%20Admits%20Reality.pdf
46.107.74.116 ( talk) 11:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
"...systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland..." The word "exterminate" is not used with "from".
-- 92slim ( talk) 18:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)It was a major center in Lesser Armenia (P'ok'r Hayk'), remaining so until the end of the fourth century A.D. Emperor Theodosius I divided the region into two provinces: First Armenia (Hayk'), with its capital at Sebasteia (modern Sivas); and Second Armenia, with its capital at Melitene.
But a literate person stops reading when the author displays illiteracy. Would you say, "John Doe was killed from his city"? You can say "banished from", "expelled from", "ejected from", but you can't say "killed from", "murdered from", "exterminated from". I have no interest in the content of a phrase embedded in sentence with a glaring grammatical mistake. When the sentence is made readable, then I might care about what it says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 ( talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Strangely, the section with the title "Definition of the word genocide" does not contain a definition of the word "genocide". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 ( talk • contribs) 7 July 2024
I removed the paragraph concerning Konstantin von Neurath and was summarily reverted by 92slim ( talk · contribs) without a real explanation, so I'm starting a discussion here. I had two reasons for this edit, and I mentioned these in the summary:
This paragraph argues by insinuation, as does the story. Neurath, while convinced of war crimes at Nuremburg, isn't considered a major figure in the Holocaust. He's not a major figure in the linked story, especially as none of the Germans in the photograph have been identified. Rudolf Hoess, who is a major figure in the Holocaust, is also mentioned but only that he served in Turkey in 1916. The article doesn't say in what capacity. There's not much to go on. Mackensen (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
I see that Хаченци ( talk · contribs) has restored the contested section concerning Neurath; I don't see any consensus here to do that and, again, it's essentially a copyright violation as written. Furthermore, as I said above, it's argument by insinuation (by Fisk). The fact presented in Fisk's article is a photograph which shows German army officers at the site of a massacre. He acknowledges that we don't know who they are, not even what unit they were attached to. This photograph has nothing to do with Neurath, or Hoess, or anyone else. Mackensen (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Fisk's account of Neurath's involvement is also difficult to square with Isabel V. Hull's account in Absolute Destruction, which depicts him as a fairly minor diplomat and not complicit in genocide (see [21]). It's been years since I read Hull but I recall it being quite negative toward the Imperial German military establishment and it's already referenced once in this article. Mackensen (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Britannica changed "In response, the Turkish government ordered the deportation of about 1,750,000 Armenians to Syria and Mesopotamia. In the course of this forced exodus, about 600,000 Armenians died of starvation or were killed by Turkish soldiers and police while en route in the desert. (See Researcher's Note: Armenian massacres.) Hundreds of thousands more were forced into exile." to "In the course of that forced exodus, hundreds of thousands of Armenians died of starvation or were killed by soldiers and police while en route in the desert. Estimates of the total death toll generally range from 600,000 to 1,500,000. (See also Researcher’s Note.) Hundreds of thousands more were forced into exile."
The article "Armenian massacres" was rename to "Armenian Genocide" - [22]. Divot ( talk) 23:23, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Étienne ( Personal attack removed) has taken to trimming his edits on the grounds that common folk might find them too hard to understand: "though important, this sentence is too long and might be too technical for a common reader". When I obliged by simplifying the sentence, making it comprehensible even to total dooshes like the rest of us always assuming of course we have a basic grasp of the lingo in the first place, Étienne still didn't care for that service either. It seems that what was bothering him all along was that quoting articles of the Ottoman Criminal Code is not something common folk need bother their arses about: "citing sections of the Ottoman Code of Criminal Procedure is too technical for the common readership and doesn't provide much vital info either".
Well of course that's all very hurtful indeed. I laboured long and hard to make this edit available to the common masses. Still, "win some, lose some" eh Étienne?
But yet ... why in that case did Étienne make exactly this edit at Turkish courts-martial of 1919–20 two days ago, sections of criminal code and all: "added information about the mazhar commission"?
If someone can explain this conundrum to me satisfactorily, i.e is why I should pay the slightest bit of attention to this nonsense at all, I shall be happy to removes the offending articles of the Ottoman Criminal Code when I restore the edit tomorrow evening. Otherwise I shall retain them. c1cada ( talk) 20:44, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes Doctor, that's what I've been saying from the beginning. But those sections kept returning over and over again with supposed modified editions. Oh well, I guess that's old news now. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 01:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
In the article, I could not find any information or reference to a not-so-recent-now trial concerning the subject. The trial is shortly known as Perincek vs Switzerland trial; which took place in the European Court of Human Rights.
As a summary, in Switzerland, Dogu Perincek, leader of the Workers' Party (Turkey), publicly defined Armenian Genocide as an international and imperialist lie. He said what had happened was no genocide, but war. People from both opposite sides had lost their lives. He did this action to protest the law in Switzerland that defined denying Armenian Genocide as a crime. He was found guilty in the trials at the Federal Court of Switzerland. Perincek appealed to European Court of Human Rights, where he was found "had not committed an abuse of his rights within the meaning of Article 17 of the Convention." The verdict can be found on this link.
An excerpt from the verdict of the European Court of Human Rights, about genocides in general is also significant: "The Court also pointed out that it was not called upon to rule on the legal characterisation of the Armenian genocide. The existence of a “genocide”, which was a precisely defined legal concept, was not easy to prove. The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths."
The Wiki article on the trial is also insufficient on terms of technical information.
94.121.70.191 ( talk) 08:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
"The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths." Seems like what this opinion says, in a roundabout way, is that due to the difficulty of proving genocide as a crime under int'l law, that if a general consensus exists about the nature of the historical events in question, that consensus represents a final conclusion about the events. Because the topic is so tricky, and there are ample opportunities for discussion, a general scholarly concensus can be viewed as settling the question conclusively, as a concensus would not be possible in a weak case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.0.104 ( talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
It's common ground that there was a reprise in the massacres in the period 1920-1923. Yet I can find no mention of these in the article, certainly not given the prominence one would expect with an article of this scope..
However that poses a problem with the lede where it says:
By convention the lede introduces material dealt with in the body of the article, but as I say there seems to be no significant mention, if any mention at all, of the massacres known to have occurred after the end of World War I. Moreover the lede must be understood as saying that the massacres after the end of World War were also implemented in two phases, but I don't believe that is so. Moreover if the massacres that occurred in the reprise 1920-1923 are to be characterised as a genocide in its legal sense as a systematic state-planned attempt to exterminate the entire Armenian population, then that needs to be cited from good quality secondary sources.
Inevitably this article will be consulted during the upcoming 24th April commemoration. I do feel this lacuna needs filling before then. I have to say that, whereas I would be normally happy to give of my considerable expertise and my time, I'm not prepared to do so until the pecking order is sorted out here. c1cada ( talk) 21:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Please see the "Mass killings continued under the Republic of Turkey during the Turkish–Armenian War phase of Turkish War of Independence." bit. I do believe that's suffice to say that massacres continued after WW1. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:43, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the origin of the edit "The genocide was carried out during and after World War I ...", originally the copy read "just after the end" and referred to "systematic killings". Thus 10 July 2012 revision is typical:
However neither of the citations provided (IAGS 1997, UN Whitaker 1982) record the genocide as continuing until just after the end of World War I.
This edit on 17 July 2012 ("To tighten focus and add specificity") deleted the qualifier "just" so that the copy now read "It took place during and after World War I ..." and now referred to "systematic extermination" rather than "systematic killing".
On 17 August 2012, an editor attempted to restore the previous lede ("Restoring the original, reasonably well-crafted introduction that had been mangled and propagandised by <redacted>)". This was reverted within the hour by <redacted> "because of no basis in discussion for replacement with earlier version". This in turn was reverted back 22 August 2012 "Revert to restore cited content and remove inaccurate content that had been given fake citations. See "Disruptive edits by <redacted>" in the talk page". Two hours later we get "Reversion of erroneous, unsupported edit ..." from <redacted>, and this won the day as far as the edit we are concerned with here.
Finally, on 2 June 2014 an editor replaced the pronoun "it" by "genocide" ("To refine logical order in the initial paragraph") so that the edit read:
This last edit is in conformity with the facts and what is acknowledged regarding the genocide (note it's not saying the genocide continued after World War I).
Unfortunately the same editor the following day refined his edit ("To refine the use of "genocide" and other style issues in the initial paragraph") to arrive at
which is not in conformity with the facts nor acknowledged regarding the claim of genocide after the end of World War I.
I would say there are two factors at work here, inadequate language skills and sloppy oversight.
Will the world pay any attention to Wikipedia's showcase Armenian Genocide article on 24 April? Frankly I wonder, but in case it does I cordially countenance my esteemed colleagues to do something about this before then. I can't because Étienne will block me. c1cada ( talk) 20:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Done. c1cada ( talk) 14:47, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, had to revert. There was no WP:CONSENSUS to that wording. Propose the wording first, then we'll see what the community says. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
My heart and respect goes out to the victims as the 100th anniversary approaches. Having done more research online, I notice a partial discrepancy between several wikipedia pages. The file [ [27]] is a poster stating, "The frank story of Aurora Mardiganian who survived while four millions [sic] perished" The image file appears in Ravished_Armenia which is her book, but it appears to possibly be not a cover of her book but a poster for an American film Ravished_Armenia_(film) based on it. It seems to be there are at least these two possibilities:
For those who may feel this can be ignored by the article, I disagree for several reasons. First, it is a notable film. Second, it was released in restored version in 2009 -- Ravished_Armenia_(film)#Reception -- and apparently a copy is on youtube (though I need to look at it).
Thirdly, I can't be the only person who investigates on wikipedia, and finds is confusing and troubling that there is one article (maybe more) with a prominent poster stating "4 million" while another, the main one, gives a different figure. For these reasons something should be put in or the contradiction addressed in some other way.
This will need to be done delicately so as not to give ammunition to those who deny the whole thing, but ignoring it only gives them far more ammunition (you can think of examples yourself of other historical crimes) where they leap on one single exaggerated number from one source and point at it over and over again, claiming (falsely) that it came from the main scholars, rather than (as appears to be the case here) from a film. Having alerted those who frequent this page, I will leave it to them to find consensus. Harelx ( talk) 04:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have opened an ANI discussion here that may concern editors here. c1cada ( talk) 02:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC).
I have changed the protection of the page to full, this is only for the next 2 days to let the high traffic of the page to cool off. Afte that the article should return to smei protected. Thanks. Rhumidian ( talk) 23:02, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
To whom it may concern:
Please correct the article "is" to "as" in this, the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the article: "Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate term for the mass killings of Armenians that began under Ottoman rule in 1915."
Thanks... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mery George ( talk • contribs) 00:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
As a neutral reader I have a vital question. Is this amount of 1.5 million scientifically proven? Or are we reading propaganda? Why 1.5 million? Why is it not 5.000.000? Or 200.000? Or 600.000? Or 1.45 million? Or 2 million? All the sources merely contain statements, there is no source to a scientific research.
What is the methodology behind this 1.5 million? Are those the bodies coming out of graves? Are people who died a natural death included in this? Armenians who starved due to the lack of food which happened universally across the Ottoman Empire during World War I, and considering a similar percentage of Turks and Kurds died of starvage as well, are those included in this number of 1.5 million?
As a neutral reader I feel this article loses a lot of value because of the lack of proper methodology for the most important part of the article: the number of casualties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.75.32.124 ( talk) 18:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for either a proper reply or an edit. The number 1.5 million is based on statements and not a research as far as it's clear in this article, and therefore it is wrong to present it as a fact. Even in the notes there is stated "however, estimates vary from 600,000 to 1,800,000", so it would be nice if the top could be adjusted as well. Furthermore, George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. And Bruce Wein mentioned in one of his articles that "the best contemporary estimates by Armenians or their sympathizers were 300,000-750,000", so it goes as low as 300,000 (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html). I have also repeatedly read in articles about estimates as high as 2,000,000. Therefore the politically correct range should be 300,000 - 2,000,000, but whether you'd like to be politically correct or politically biased is your own choice, the top should be edited, according to the present information in this article to 600,000 - 1,800,000, and politically correct to 300,000 to 2,000,000. --
82.75.32.124 (
talk)
20:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
The 600,000 figure stems from a report Toynbee drafted claiming that 600,000 Armenians died accounts only until 1916, which is merely the first year of the Armenian Genocide. This figure jives with initial reports of 500,000 dead in the first 5 months alone ( [1] [2] [3] [4]). By the end of the Armenian Genocide, those who attest to the death of 1.5 million Armenians do not include only the number of Ottoman Armenian citizens but Russian Armenian citizens as well since the Ottoman government took the willful steps of annihilating not only the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, but outside of its dominions as well (i.e. Russia, First Republic of Armenia, and etc.). German Military Plenipotentiary in the Ottoman Empire Otto von Lossow proclaimed that the "The Turks have embarked upon the total extermination of the Armenians in Transcaucasia", "Talaat's government party wants to destroy all Armenians not only in Turkey, but also outside Turkey", and that "On the basis of all the reports and news coming to me here in Tiflis there hardly can be any doubt that the Turks systematically are aiming at the extermination of the few hundred thousand Armenians whom they left alive until now."( [5] [6] [7]) Even the international community reported massacres that were made outside of the dominions of the Ottoman empire in 1918 (see this New York Tribune article). In light of this, allies to the Ottoman Empire, such as German major Carl Franz Endres who served in the Turkish army, estimated the number of Ottoman Armenian deaths as 1.2 million, which excludes Russian Armenian deaths (Carl Franz Endres, Die Türkei. Munich, CH Beck, 1918, p. 161). The French ran their own investigative commissions after World War I and proclaimed the death of 1.5 million in 1919 ( [8]). Most sources, if not all, attest to the death of at least a million Ottoman Armenian citizens. 1.5 million is the widely accepted figure, as already mentioned in the article. If we assess the number of Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1914 as 1.9 to 2 million, these numbers are fairly accurate with respects to the additional hundreds of thousands of Russian Armenians that were massacred as well. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 23:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, it is a proper one and I appreciate it, but still I see some flaws. First of all, all the "500,000 deaths" sources refer to news articles from the Allied side who were engaged in a world war against the Ottoman Empire, and more importantly, without a clear source (to for example a research). It is safe to assume that this is propaganda to influence the public opinion, especially considering none of the articles criticize the fact that the number 500,000 is unfounded. Just like news articles from the Nazi's are not reliable sources to criticize the Jews, news articles from the Allied side are (to me at least) not fully reliable to judge the actions of either the Germans or the Ottomans. I have not read the books you refer to, but I will read them and leave a reply here as soon as I see a chance to do so. And I know a lot of sources refer to 1.5 million, but a thousand years ago most sources said the earth was flat. What I am really interested in is where this number 1.5 million comes from, because as far as it seems to me it comes from a statement that is thrown in public by either a person or a news paper, and not a research. By the way, the news article of the French investigation is impossible to read because the file is really too small, do you perhaps have other sources for this article?
Furthermore, in 1912 the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was counted by the Armenian Patriarchate(!) as 1,018,000 ( [9]). Nowhere in history has ever happened that such a large population doubled within 3 to 6 years. Was the census of the Armenian Patriarchate that lead to 1 million a lie or is the estimation of 1.9-2.0 million a lie? And that statements(!) claim Ottomans were interested in killing Armenians outside of their empire is interesting, but fortunately that was not within their power. The Russian political and military situation was far superior to that of the Ottomans in 1915-1918, without the Russian permission Talaat Pasha's army could not have operated within Russia. And as far as I know the Ottoman Army has never operated on Russian territory on the other side of the front, where they were losing battle after battle. So involving this sounds to me as ridiculous as blaming deaths within the United States on the Germans, the Germans simply had no power in the US just as Ottomans had no power within Russia. Perhaps these Russian Armenians died on the front with a weapon in their hands? I hope you understand that in that case they can not be counted in the amount of casualties of the genocide. How did Carl Franz Endres get to this number? Under what circumstances did he say this? During the war? Or afterwards when he was hoping for amnesty?
I am sorry for having so many questions and remarks, but as I said, a thousand years ago everybody on earth thought the earth was flat, I am seriously interested in the real situation with a solid undeniable foundation. -- 82.75.32.124 ( talk) 12:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
"In summary, here are my convictions. The Armenian deportations were carried out in a manner entirely unbecoming to humanity, civilization, and government. The massacre and annihilation of the Armenians, and the looting and plunder of their properties were the result of the decision of the Central Committee of Ittihad and Terakki. The butchers of human beings, who operated in the command zone of the Third Army, were procured and engaged by Dr. Bahattin Şakir. The high ranking governmental officials did submit to his directives and order...He stopped by at all major centers where he orally transmitted his instructions to the party's local bodies and to the governmental authorities."
@ PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made?
@
PointsofNoReturn: You may disagree all you want, but the fact remains that it is a violation of the TP guidelines to leave comments unsigned, which user 82.75.32.124 has done at least 9 times in a row so far. In fact his "signature" has by now become the absence of a signature. You may think it is a good idea to respond to his wide-ranging and often flippant comments because you find something "great" or "interestiing" in them (for instance, his reference to "flat earth" beliefs a thousand years ago, or his saying "if the evidence has been destroyed, it has been destroyed") but responding to such anonymous comments only throws the gate wide open to all kinds of irresponsible users to do the same. For this very reason, I am quite perplexed about the special invitation for comment posted above, which seems based largely on your favored user's anonymous comments. If you think the guideline for signing posts is superfluous then maybe you should make a formal request to eliminate it. But I would like to know a little more about the user you defend and see the quality of his other contributions (if he has any) to get a better understanding of the quality of his thought and methods. I will now ask you to state in your own words what number of Armenians you think were killed in the Armenian Genocide and whether that number can be taken as a "fact" (which has been made much of above) or an estimate. In other words my question to you: What would the figure look like after your "adjustments" you are made?
Diranakir (
talk)
19:29, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@ Diranakir: First off, the ip user you are describing is a new user. How would he know what guidelines to follow in the beginning? Also, that is what the unsigned comment bot is for. You cannot just discount the content of his comment just because he is a new user. Do not bite the new user. As to your question on what statistic should be used, I am okay with whatever statistic is decided upon as long as there is a consensus on it. Personally, I would prefer to describe the death statistic controversy similar to the way it is in the article, only with the new information from the ip user condensed down into article section size. In other words, all I am saying is that we should just simply agree on a statistic and go with it. PointsofNoReturn ( talk) 20:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
@ PointsofNoReturn: As I said, 1 to 1.5 million is based on consensus. Therefore pleading for consensus is misplaced. I do expect that most new users would check the guidelines. I am not "biting a new user", which implies intimidating a naive newcomer. This new user seems to have a lot to say and the determination to say it and I have no power over him except my reasoning. I don't know what you mean when you say he signed his latest posts. I don't see where. Please clarify. On "considering" his objections, I would expect a man who has so many objections to have some idea of what the right figure would be. He should indicate that over a full signature. Otherwise all we have is a flotilla of objections leading to oblivion. Diranakir ( talk) 00:38, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I am really happy over the recent copy-edits by various users over the content of the article. I hope this collective effort will bring about the GA status the article will hopefully attain. However, I find the refs the biggest concern here. They are really disorganized and not formatted correctly. It really pains me to see the article this way. If the article doesn't have a consistent format in terms of references, I don't think it'll pass FA. For example: see ref 64 and 65. These two refs refer to the page number right beside the citation number in the end of the sentence. While, on the other hand, ref 101 has the page number in the reference itself. So we need to make a very wise decision as to which format should we use if we want to get this past FA. I can assure you, once the inconsistencies with the references is solved, the FA process will be smooth-sailing. @ Diranakir: Armen Ohanian ( talk · contribs): thoughts? Étienne Dolet ( talk) 06:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC) The references are really messy, to put it mildly. I believe that the best and faster way would be to unify the references to the author-title-place-editorial-year-page format, which I have seen used in many places (e.g. Vahakn Dadrian, History of the Armenian Genocide, London-Providence, Berghahn Books, 1995, p. 270), without the ridiculous page number in the reference or any other thing that requires additional formatting.
Excuse me for omitting to sign my post above. Re Talat vs. Talaat: Turkish Talat (with the caret) seems to indicate that the form with double "a" should be the primary choice (cf. the Armenian form "Taleat"). It appears that the form "Talat" is a simplification of the Turkish form by eliminating the caret (^). Armen Ohanian ( talk) 04:29, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Then the question is how to do make the changes. Is there a "Change All" option, or must it be done instance by instance? Diranakir ( talk) 03:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
To Ohanian, Dolet, or others: Both spellings (as above) occur in the main article. This should be resolved in favor of one or the other. Also," Erzurum" is used in the title of the WP article on the city. My assumption has always been that it is "Erzerum". Your thoughts and proposals. Thanks. Diranakir ( talk) 01:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC) "Erzurum" is the Turkish name of the city. "Erzerum" appears to be the Westernized transliteration used until the 1920s, which corresponds to the Armenian spelling Էրզրում. Armen Ohanian ( talk) 02:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 ( talk · contribs) 06:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | Needs copy edit, suggest GOCE. |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | Referencing not IAW MOS. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | Not all paragraphs and even some sections are uncited. |
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2c. it contains no original research. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | |
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7. Overall assessment. | quick failed, does not meet criterion 1a, 2a and 2b. Remaining criterion not fully assessed. Needs a thorough copy edit (suggest approach be made to the Guild of Copy Editors), citation system needs to reflect MOS, and in an article on this topic, all paragraphs must have at least one citation to a reliable source. |
@ Tiptoethrutheminefield we could have it peer rewieved and create a task group ? kazekagetr 20:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Things like: "It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as "abandoned goods" for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsorily removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods ... If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can't do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it."
Don't seem NPOV and weren't in quotations in the article. I'm considering deleting this if nobody has any objections. There are also quite a few things I find questionable that I would like to change or delete all together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.121.121 ( talk) 09:43, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this translation could be a lot better. The original Turkish text just flows when I read it; the English seems somewhat whacky in comparison and harder to understand. (I assure you I'm fluent in English.) Someone who's fluent enough in (19th-20th century) Turkish to catch all nuance in the original text, and also skilled in English prose so they can write a suitable English equivalent, might want to take a jab at it. On the meanwhile please correct the spelling mistake "piece" to "peace", and change the word "luxury" to "comfort" or "tranquility" or so.
For the record, here's my attempt at a mostly literal translation without entirely butchering English (but it might still read awkwardly): "The Armenian nation who I tried to eliminate to its last member for trying to erase my homeland from history [as prisoners of (OR) by surrendering to] the enemy in the most horrible and painful days of my homeland; the Armenian nation who I today want to bring to peace and comfort since they take shelter in the generosity of the Turkish nation... If you remain loyal to the Turkish homeland I will do every good deed I can. If you once again attempt to betray the Turkish and the Turkish homeland by getting involved with certain senseless Komitadjis I will order my armies who surround your whole country and leave not a single Armenian to breathe on this earth; pull yourself together."
Some notes:
I end the first (compound) sentence in ellipsis (instead of a period) because it indeed lacks a verb; he's rather calling out to the Armenian nation with those two compounded sentences which I separated with a semicolon (as opposed to a comma in the original).
The part in brackets is very ambiguous to me in the original text and could be translated to either phrase in English (the phrase "esir olarak" can mean both "as a prisoner" and "by surrendering"). It also has the second ambiguity (not resolved in English by choosing either phrase) that is who the subject of the clause is (is it the Armenians who surrender or are imprisoned, or the Ottomans?), so there is four possible interpretations in total: have Armenians once intentionally surrendered themselves to enemy forces to disadvantage the Ottomans? Were they already imprisoned but then helped the enemy forces? Or have they just generally contributed to the surrender of the Ottomans, which led to a risk of them getting erased from history? Or did they do something while the Ottomans were already (figuratively) imprisoned by enemy nations and under threat of this "erasure from history"? Someone who knows the context of the text might be able to tell.
In "betray the Turkish" I use the word "Turkish" as an implicit plural/group/nation/culture; this is most close to the original text which just uses "Türk" without pluralization; it could have used the plural "Türkler" if it wanted to speak of "the Turks". (I also considered just writing "betray the Turk", but I think "betray the Turkish" is more fitting.)
In the last sentence, the word "country" is not to be misinterpreted to mean that they have a government. I don't know if there's a better alternative to the word "country" here; I considered "land" but that doesn't carry the implication of a nation being bound to that land, whereas the original uses the word "memleket" which is a bit more like "homeland". I chose not to use "homeland" because that was previously used as a translation for "vatan". When I think about it, perhaps the only difference between "vatan" and "memleket" is that the former sounds a bit more glorified, though.
And lastly, the last part is better translated as "pull yourself together" and not "make up your mind" because the Turkish phrase that is originally used literally translates to "put your mind back in your head" and does not imply there being any decision to make; not even sarcastically.
Translation is frickin' difficult! 2003:51:4A04:D063:213:E8FF:FEED:36FB ( talk) 21:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This article isn't set on being a GA anyways. I don't mind using this translation [18]:
"The Armenian folk that I tried to kill to the last person, since they tried to enslave a nation to the enemy in the most terrible and painful days of my country, the Armenian folk that I am offering peace, comfort since they take refuge of the Turkish nation’s high mind… If you stick together with the Turkish homeland, I would do whatever I can for your country but if you obey some group of unconscientious Armenians who would betray the Turks and their homeland again, I will give an order to the armies that are surrounding your country to not leave any Armenians still breathing on the earth. Be more reasonable."
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 02:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Has anyone here considered -- or, agree with -- merging the Armenian Genocide page along with the Greek and Assyrian genocide pages. After all, they were not three separate events, but rather, three different national histories. Renowned genocide scholar Hannibal Travis and even the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) refer to the events as a genocide of the Ottoman Empire's Christian population - Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian.
another resource site link for the Armenian Genocide should be added. its 100% related and here are the details:
Site Name: GenoPosts.com URL: http://www.genoposts.com/
Sosarkissian 22:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Just a heads up, I can't change this myself, because the article is protected, in the first paragraph (3rd line) the article states ″historic homeland in the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey during and after World War.″, Obviously it should say World War I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.24.102.221 ( talk) 19:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it is important to make clear that the Genocide of 1915 was brought about by the Imperial Government (Ottoman Empire) ( Three Pashas government}. It is just a fact that is not included yet, but should be replaced with the much more complex article link of Ottoman Empire for any events after 1908, as the Ottoman Empire spans many centuries and this would be too much of a distraction for the reader to get immersed into; I replaced the links I found appropiate, please do this further if necessary. -- 92slim ( talk) 23:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
In a report entitled " Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", which discusses but is not limited to the subject and was addressed to his political party, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun or Dashnaktsutyun), Armenia's first prime minister Hovhannes Katchaznouni defines the events as one would define a war.
He criticizes the aspect of the Armenian side, stating that "We overestimated the ability of the Armenian people, its political and military power, and overvalued the extent and significance of the services our people rendered to the Russians. And by overestimating our very humble worth and merit we were naturally exaggerating our hopes and expectations."
He also states that "The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question." These statements are consistent with defining the events as war which included bilateral slaughters, but not genocide.
As a result, it may be concluded that it is obvious that many people lost their lives from both opposed sides. It can be more on one side and less on the other, depending on their military and political powers.
But to define the events as genocide is not fair; and highly reduces the credibility of wikipedia.
94.121.70.191 ( talk) 08:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
The mass exiles, deportations, and massacres that took place during the summer and autumn of 1915 were fatal blows to the Armenian Cause. Half of historical Armenia - the same half where the fundamentals of our independence would be laid according to the traditions inherited by European diplomacy - that half was deprived of Armenians. In the Armenian provinces of Turkey there were no Armenians. The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question.
The proof is, however – and this is crucial – that the struggle began decades ago against which the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia.
This was the terrible fact.
Civilized humanity might very well be shaken with rage in the face of this horrifying crime. Statesmen might utter menacing words against criminal Turkey. “Blue”, “yellow”, “orange” books and papers might be published accusing them. Divine punishment against the criminals might be invoked in churches by clergymen of all denominations. The press of all countries might be filled with horrifying descriptions and details and the evidence of eye-witnesses...Let them say this or that, but the work was already done and words would not revive the corpses fallen in the Arabian deserts, restore the ruined hearths, repopulate the country now become desolate. The Turks knew what they ought to do and did it.
Claiming that he is trying to uphold Wikipedia's credibility, the initiator of the present topic is avoiding a legitimate discussion by ignoring the ordinary meaning of words and then hiding behind the results. "It was the most definite technique" does not equal "any action that can take place in war", or "numerous upsetting events". That is as clear as the nose on one's face. Diranakir ( talk) 20:21, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for kind replies. I will be re-presenting my thoughts and opinions about the subjects that have been mentioned. But first, I have to inform you that I will expand this thread further later, as I do not have enough time for this right now. So, please keep in touch.
1 - My primary motivation to start this discussion is to point out that, a highly significant report of the first prime minister of Armenia is not -and should be- referred in the article, if it is intended to make the article comprehensive. About the report, I also would be happy to hear your opinions about why the report " Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", by the first prime minister of Armenia, had been removed from libraries and banned in Armenia.
2 - As for the "anachronism" claim about the term genocide; I do not think I have made any imply that the term genocide had already been coined in 1915 (to be more clear: in my initial message by saying ""but it does not refer to "genocide"", I mean it does not refer to "genocide" (one should not take he message that it means genocide)); which means I am not trying to be funny.
3 - I hope you are a little bit outdated in the Ergenekon; otherwise what you stated would be a pure intentional denigration. The Ergenekon trial -after over 6 years - is proven to be a coup against people who are -after all these years they were sentenced- declared as not guilty, including Mehmet Perincek. All so-called convicted persons are acquitted, by the verdict of the Constitutional Court (highest court) of Turkey. You can check out the list of illegality examples in Ergenekon trials. As a matter of fact, the famous prosecutor of the trial, Zekeriya Oz, and judges, president of the court Hasan Hüseyin Özese, and member judges Sedat Sami Haşıloğlu and Hüsnü Çalmuk are now being prosecuted; for the faults in the Ergenekon trials. They are believed to be connected to the Fethullah Gülen (so called religious) order.
4 - I refuse the term "denialist", since one can only deny a truth. One can not deny the ambiguous outcomes of a controversial discussion, however these can be agreed or disagreed.
5 - There are many former "denialists" of Armenian origin, but one of the last of them was Hrant Dink, an iconic person of the Armenian community in Turkey, the editor of the Agos magazine, who was murdered in 2007. He interpreted the 1915 events with courage, Hrant Dink. Dink claimed that the Kurds were now falling in for the traps that the Armenians fell in the past. He says in his last speech in Malatya Business Peoples Association: "English, Russian, German, and French are playing the same game again in this land. In the past, the Armenian people trusted them, thought they would rescue them from the cruelity of the Ottoman. But they were wrong, because they finished their business and they left. And they left brothers of this land as enemies". He claimed that the US is now playing the same game, and this time Kurds are falling for it. He said "That is America. Comes, minds its own business, and when he is done, leaves. And then people here, scuffle within themselves". [1] [2] Before you accuse the imaginary Ergenekon organisation, let me add that the chief of police in Trabzon, Ramazan Akyürek, who condoned the murder to happen, had officially been filed as being a member of the Fethullah Gülen so-called religious order.
6 - Raphael Lemkin may be an innovative person, and like any person, he may be wrong, or deceived, or ignorant. If he chose 1915 events as an example, I believe that was his mistake. Please check the European Council of Human Rights report mentioned in the above topic The controversy about the 1915 events may only be ended by an objective, unbiased and thorough study by a council of scientists, not by talented individuals. I believe one day, these studies will be made and the fact that the events were "carnage made by both sides and effecting both sides", but not an "unilateral genocide", will be revealed.
7 - Being ignorant is not as difficult as knowing. But pretending not to know is even harder. I hope our children will meet, and be "brothers" as Dink would say, in a world where blood group is more important than ethnical identities.
Best regards, 94.121.64.98 ( talk) 12:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
References
In "Hamidian massacres" text of the photo: "Armenian massacres in E..."?! May be you want to say: Killed Armenians in E...? or Massacred Armenians in E...? 96.247.108.45 ( talk) 00:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Armenian Genocide's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "akcam":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 15:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Armenian Genocide has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In reference to note 147, it is quoted a sentence from Ataturk saying
[...] the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule
While the actual statement from Ataturk was
These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule
As you can check in the document linked by the note itself. There is a big difference between the two as in the first case the subject seems to be the "Millions of Christians" while in fact it was the Young Turk Party.
I therefore request to quote the sentence in its whole integrity
http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/docs/Kemal%20Ataturk%20Admits%20Reality.pdf
46.107.74.116 ( talk) 11:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
"...systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland..." The word "exterminate" is not used with "from".
-- 92slim ( talk) 18:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)It was a major center in Lesser Armenia (P'ok'r Hayk'), remaining so until the end of the fourth century A.D. Emperor Theodosius I divided the region into two provinces: First Armenia (Hayk'), with its capital at Sebasteia (modern Sivas); and Second Armenia, with its capital at Melitene.
But a literate person stops reading when the author displays illiteracy. Would you say, "John Doe was killed from his city"? You can say "banished from", "expelled from", "ejected from", but you can't say "killed from", "murdered from", "exterminated from". I have no interest in the content of a phrase embedded in sentence with a glaring grammatical mistake. When the sentence is made readable, then I might care about what it says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 ( talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Strangely, the section with the title "Definition of the word genocide" does not contain a definition of the word "genocide". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 ( talk • contribs) 7 July 2024
I removed the paragraph concerning Konstantin von Neurath and was summarily reverted by 92slim ( talk · contribs) without a real explanation, so I'm starting a discussion here. I had two reasons for this edit, and I mentioned these in the summary:
This paragraph argues by insinuation, as does the story. Neurath, while convinced of war crimes at Nuremburg, isn't considered a major figure in the Holocaust. He's not a major figure in the linked story, especially as none of the Germans in the photograph have been identified. Rudolf Hoess, who is a major figure in the Holocaust, is also mentioned but only that he served in Turkey in 1916. The article doesn't say in what capacity. There's not much to go on. Mackensen (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
I see that Хаченци ( talk · contribs) has restored the contested section concerning Neurath; I don't see any consensus here to do that and, again, it's essentially a copyright violation as written. Furthermore, as I said above, it's argument by insinuation (by Fisk). The fact presented in Fisk's article is a photograph which shows German army officers at the site of a massacre. He acknowledges that we don't know who they are, not even what unit they were attached to. This photograph has nothing to do with Neurath, or Hoess, or anyone else. Mackensen (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Fisk's account of Neurath's involvement is also difficult to square with Isabel V. Hull's account in Absolute Destruction, which depicts him as a fairly minor diplomat and not complicit in genocide (see [21]). It's been years since I read Hull but I recall it being quite negative toward the Imperial German military establishment and it's already referenced once in this article. Mackensen (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Britannica changed "In response, the Turkish government ordered the deportation of about 1,750,000 Armenians to Syria and Mesopotamia. In the course of this forced exodus, about 600,000 Armenians died of starvation or were killed by Turkish soldiers and police while en route in the desert. (See Researcher's Note: Armenian massacres.) Hundreds of thousands more were forced into exile." to "In the course of that forced exodus, hundreds of thousands of Armenians died of starvation or were killed by soldiers and police while en route in the desert. Estimates of the total death toll generally range from 600,000 to 1,500,000. (See also Researcher’s Note.) Hundreds of thousands more were forced into exile."
The article "Armenian massacres" was rename to "Armenian Genocide" - [22]. Divot ( talk) 23:23, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Étienne ( Personal attack removed) has taken to trimming his edits on the grounds that common folk might find them too hard to understand: "though important, this sentence is too long and might be too technical for a common reader". When I obliged by simplifying the sentence, making it comprehensible even to total dooshes like the rest of us always assuming of course we have a basic grasp of the lingo in the first place, Étienne still didn't care for that service either. It seems that what was bothering him all along was that quoting articles of the Ottoman Criminal Code is not something common folk need bother their arses about: "citing sections of the Ottoman Code of Criminal Procedure is too technical for the common readership and doesn't provide much vital info either".
Well of course that's all very hurtful indeed. I laboured long and hard to make this edit available to the common masses. Still, "win some, lose some" eh Étienne?
But yet ... why in that case did Étienne make exactly this edit at Turkish courts-martial of 1919–20 two days ago, sections of criminal code and all: "added information about the mazhar commission"?
If someone can explain this conundrum to me satisfactorily, i.e is why I should pay the slightest bit of attention to this nonsense at all, I shall be happy to removes the offending articles of the Ottoman Criminal Code when I restore the edit tomorrow evening. Otherwise I shall retain them. c1cada ( talk) 20:44, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes Doctor, that's what I've been saying from the beginning. But those sections kept returning over and over again with supposed modified editions. Oh well, I guess that's old news now. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 01:23, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
In the article, I could not find any information or reference to a not-so-recent-now trial concerning the subject. The trial is shortly known as Perincek vs Switzerland trial; which took place in the European Court of Human Rights.
As a summary, in Switzerland, Dogu Perincek, leader of the Workers' Party (Turkey), publicly defined Armenian Genocide as an international and imperialist lie. He said what had happened was no genocide, but war. People from both opposite sides had lost their lives. He did this action to protest the law in Switzerland that defined denying Armenian Genocide as a crime. He was found guilty in the trials at the Federal Court of Switzerland. Perincek appealed to European Court of Human Rights, where he was found "had not committed an abuse of his rights within the meaning of Article 17 of the Convention." The verdict can be found on this link.
An excerpt from the verdict of the European Court of Human Rights, about genocides in general is also significant: "The Court also pointed out that it was not called upon to rule on the legal characterisation of the Armenian genocide. The existence of a “genocide”, which was a precisely defined legal concept, was not easy to prove. The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths."
The Wiki article on the trial is also insufficient on terms of technical information.
94.121.70.191 ( talk) 08:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
"The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths." Seems like what this opinion says, in a roundabout way, is that due to the difficulty of proving genocide as a crime under int'l law, that if a general consensus exists about the nature of the historical events in question, that consensus represents a final conclusion about the events. Because the topic is so tricky, and there are ample opportunities for discussion, a general scholarly concensus can be viewed as settling the question conclusively, as a concensus would not be possible in a weak case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.0.104 ( talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
It's common ground that there was a reprise in the massacres in the period 1920-1923. Yet I can find no mention of these in the article, certainly not given the prominence one would expect with an article of this scope..
However that poses a problem with the lede where it says:
By convention the lede introduces material dealt with in the body of the article, but as I say there seems to be no significant mention, if any mention at all, of the massacres known to have occurred after the end of World War I. Moreover the lede must be understood as saying that the massacres after the end of World War were also implemented in two phases, but I don't believe that is so. Moreover if the massacres that occurred in the reprise 1920-1923 are to be characterised as a genocide in its legal sense as a systematic state-planned attempt to exterminate the entire Armenian population, then that needs to be cited from good quality secondary sources.
Inevitably this article will be consulted during the upcoming 24th April commemoration. I do feel this lacuna needs filling before then. I have to say that, whereas I would be normally happy to give of my considerable expertise and my time, I'm not prepared to do so until the pecking order is sorted out here. c1cada ( talk) 21:35, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Please see the "Mass killings continued under the Republic of Turkey during the Turkish–Armenian War phase of Turkish War of Independence." bit. I do believe that's suffice to say that massacres continued after WW1. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 19:43, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the origin of the edit "The genocide was carried out during and after World War I ...", originally the copy read "just after the end" and referred to "systematic killings". Thus 10 July 2012 revision is typical:
However neither of the citations provided (IAGS 1997, UN Whitaker 1982) record the genocide as continuing until just after the end of World War I.
This edit on 17 July 2012 ("To tighten focus and add specificity") deleted the qualifier "just" so that the copy now read "It took place during and after World War I ..." and now referred to "systematic extermination" rather than "systematic killing".
On 17 August 2012, an editor attempted to restore the previous lede ("Restoring the original, reasonably well-crafted introduction that had been mangled and propagandised by <redacted>)". This was reverted within the hour by <redacted> "because of no basis in discussion for replacement with earlier version". This in turn was reverted back 22 August 2012 "Revert to restore cited content and remove inaccurate content that had been given fake citations. See "Disruptive edits by <redacted>" in the talk page". Two hours later we get "Reversion of erroneous, unsupported edit ..." from <redacted>, and this won the day as far as the edit we are concerned with here.
Finally, on 2 June 2014 an editor replaced the pronoun "it" by "genocide" ("To refine logical order in the initial paragraph") so that the edit read:
This last edit is in conformity with the facts and what is acknowledged regarding the genocide (note it's not saying the genocide continued after World War I).
Unfortunately the same editor the following day refined his edit ("To refine the use of "genocide" and other style issues in the initial paragraph") to arrive at
which is not in conformity with the facts nor acknowledged regarding the claim of genocide after the end of World War I.
I would say there are two factors at work here, inadequate language skills and sloppy oversight.
Will the world pay any attention to Wikipedia's showcase Armenian Genocide article on 24 April? Frankly I wonder, but in case it does I cordially countenance my esteemed colleagues to do something about this before then. I can't because Étienne will block me. c1cada ( talk) 20:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Done. c1cada ( talk) 14:47, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, had to revert. There was no WP:CONSENSUS to that wording. Propose the wording first, then we'll see what the community says. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
My heart and respect goes out to the victims as the 100th anniversary approaches. Having done more research online, I notice a partial discrepancy between several wikipedia pages. The file [ [27]] is a poster stating, "The frank story of Aurora Mardiganian who survived while four millions [sic] perished" The image file appears in Ravished_Armenia which is her book, but it appears to possibly be not a cover of her book but a poster for an American film Ravished_Armenia_(film) based on it. It seems to be there are at least these two possibilities:
For those who may feel this can be ignored by the article, I disagree for several reasons. First, it is a notable film. Second, it was released in restored version in 2009 -- Ravished_Armenia_(film)#Reception -- and apparently a copy is on youtube (though I need to look at it).
Thirdly, I can't be the only person who investigates on wikipedia, and finds is confusing and troubling that there is one article (maybe more) with a prominent poster stating "4 million" while another, the main one, gives a different figure. For these reasons something should be put in or the contradiction addressed in some other way.
This will need to be done delicately so as not to give ammunition to those who deny the whole thing, but ignoring it only gives them far more ammunition (you can think of examples yourself of other historical crimes) where they leap on one single exaggerated number from one source and point at it over and over again, claiming (falsely) that it came from the main scholars, rather than (as appears to be the case here) from a film. Having alerted those who frequent this page, I will leave it to them to find consensus. Harelx ( talk) 04:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have opened an ANI discussion here that may concern editors here. c1cada ( talk) 02:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC).
I have changed the protection of the page to full, this is only for the next 2 days to let the high traffic of the page to cool off. Afte that the article should return to smei protected. Thanks. Rhumidian ( talk) 23:02, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
To whom it may concern:
Please correct the article "is" to "as" in this, the first sentence of the fourth paragraph of the article: "Turkey, the successor state of the Ottoman Empire, denies the word genocide is an accurate term for the mass killings of Armenians that began under Ottoman rule in 1915."
Thanks... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mery George ( talk • contribs) 00:11, 25 April 2015 (UTC)