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I don't see why we need to have the POV tag here. The article doesn't assert the views, all the disputed parts are labeled as "alleged," the article talks both about the Turkish and mainstream point of views--I suggest the POV be removed. If someone objects, they will need to make a good case.-- TigranTheGreat 12:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Aren't all of the Armenian contributions to Ottoman civilization covered in the Ottoman Empire entires? (are these really just alleged contributions?) If not perhaps these need to be modified to properly reflect Armenian contributions first before we move on to just why Armenians became the victims of the dominant Ottoman Turkish elements of the society. Oh and BTW - only Turks (perhaps aided by some Kurds and Circassians and some Balkan and other various Turkics - commited Genocide [against Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians])...-- THOTH 05:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I am neutral on this topic and after reading the article, I think the NPOV tag needs to go. Of course many people of Turkish origin think this whole topic is not NPOV but the way the article is written is neutral. You don't need every single Turkish allegation and rationalization because they are addressed generally. Take the tag off please. Pschemp | Talk 06:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Do the Nazis get to push their POV about the Final Solution, about how the Jews "violently resisted the peaceful breakup of the ghetos", "slipped intelligence to the Allies", "manipulated the war through their evil global conspiracy", etc? I think we should have a formal vote if Fadix or an admin won't do the job. John Smith's 08:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with users Pschemp and John Smith above - article is most politically correct as it stands (too much so IMO) - and certainly should not have a POV lable on it any more then the Holocaust article should. Outside of (so-called) scholars who explicitly are funded by Turkey or who have very obvious ties to Turkey there are very few - if any - scholars who truly deny the Armenian Genocide and would dispute any facts or positions contained in this article. It is most shameful that some Turks are so fanatically blindly nationalistic that they cannot accept the facts in this case even though the world and scholars are pretty convinced concerning what occured. It is also most sad that we are held hostage by this denial. I argue that this article needs to be entirely rewritten and reorganized to more resemble that of the Holocaust article. It requires more background explanation and discussion however as their is less common familiarity with the events and circumstances of the Armenian Genocide and of the Armenian experience in the ottoman Empire prior to the Genocide then there is of the Jewish experience in Germany prior to WWII and the events leading to and comprising the Jewish (and other peoples) Holocaust enacted by the Nazi Germans in WWII. Likewise I am in favor of covering a variety of events and circumstances concerning conditions and events affecting the Ottoman Empire prior to the leading up to the Armenian Genocide which I feel are important for a proper understanding and context of this event. -- THOTH 13:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created a poll, so please vote at the bottom. John Smith's 15:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion as a student of history at Manhattan College, Dr. Balakian spoke at my school about it and this entry is a far more neutral article than what he spoke about during the lecture. so As a Turkish student none the less of History the NPOV tag should be taken off. There is no bias both sides are given, its Dr. Balakian you need to talk to the guy that wrote the Burning Tigris or something like that ~Pinar
By the way, has anyone ever looked on the first photo at the article page?Hahah!If you look, you will see the Russian hats on the heads of Ottoman officers.
Look carefully.Have Ottomans ever used the hats like those?
Strange, apparently this website [1] about the Ottoman Empire does show pictures of those hats. Conspiracy perhaps??-- MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Again for this article, i can just LAUGH. Please make some DEEP research and after that try to write a NEUTRAL article, i say it to main articles writer.
Reşit, from Turkey —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.56.38 ( talk • contribs) .
You guys are bunch of idiots. The officers are Russians that discovered the bodies and apparently took pictures. No turk would like to take a picture and document the fact.
HAHA...........
Ok, this is a simple vote that should last no longer than seven days. A simple majority should suffice. No anon-IPs please. The question is:
"SHOULD WE REMOVE THE NPOV TAG FROM THE ARTICLE?"
++VOTING CLOSED++ There has not been one dissenting voice on the vote after several days, so I am removing the tag as of now. John Smith's 23:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It appears to me this page is completely dominated by those who have a stake in this matter, and naturally this sort of vote will garner such a result. In order to have dissenting voices, dissenting parties would need to dedicate themselves as eagerly as those for whom this matter means so much. The fact that this page is stable points not to the truthfulness of many of the claims, but to the commitment of those who have made this page their calling; this article is not, in any shape or form, "objective," and does not at all "present both sides of the story." Blissmiss 07:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, your sentence above does not fit the real facts on the ground. The genocide is not accpeted and characterized as a big lie in Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan, China, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Tataristan, and almost all muslim countries. There was one who said that Leabon pseudo recognized the alleged genocide, there is no credible source to approve that. No official gov't wweb site of Lebanon talks about the alleged and lie armenian genocide. As to other countries except 15 mostly christian countries no country has recognized the genocide. Even the US characterizes it as a massacare. Your armenian love or fundamentalism has closed your eyes to reality and real facts. Try to be more correct. -- 71.195.182.195 09:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, yes it does and it does well. The countries that recognize the alleged and lie based armenian genocide are the biggest genocide doers and now they with zealot woudl like to balckmail the Turkey and label it as one of them as well. Becasue pseudo for them it would reavealing that they weren't alone in the world. The biggest genociders are France, Germany, Italy, and UK. Don't forget that 3 million died with direct inaction of the British in Bengal in 1940s. The germans killed 6 or more Jewish. I especially see the activeness of the German as they did such a wrong thing and now try to label Turkey as genocider, as this will give them the psychological releif that they are not so horrible. You just might be a German or European who have been the biggest and largest genociders in the world and nothing will clean this.
So as we see the countries that recognize the alleged armenian genocide and armenian lies are those countries which have done the biggest genocides in the world. See who are recognizing the alleged armenian genocide. -- 71.195.182.230 17:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, the armenian loved and faked words of Hitler is nothing more than the myth as the armenian genocide allegations. You know that better than me. Also would like to note that UK hasn't recognized the alleged armenian genocide. In other countries they were done mostly bby some group of parlamentarians, who are most likely anti muslim, anti Turk and or christian fundamentalists. So as yo u see the armenians millions are going to toilet as the flush of water. I woudl suggest those armenian diaspora people to spend this money for armenians who are dieing in armenia from poverty. It would be interesting for you to know that half of the armenian population has already left armenia. So funny that most of armenians as you gidonband and lovers of armenians for this or another reason always try to relate the armenian genocide to notorious people in the world therefore trying to justify their position. So far these are Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. God known who will be tomorrow. May be the Pope Rome himlself. Haaaaaaaaaaaaa:)))))Ramil -- 71.195.182.195 19:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Also I don't know why Armenians want to hide that one of the biggest genociders in the world was Armenian. Lavrenty Beriya was an armenian and the right hand of Stalin. Indeed the entire massacre of intellectuals and anti-soviet people had been directly managed by Lavrenty Beriya, not by Stalin. He has killed by some estimations 30 million people in the entire former Soviet Union. Do you the see the parallel between the tendency of Lavrenty Beriya to commit genocide, and armenian in Turkey in 1915 who killed half a million Kurds and some Turks.
Why you don't tell the truth? WHy you don't tell that one the biggest genocider in the world was Armeninan, Lavrenty Beriya. His genocide may be exceeds the genocide committed by Hitler. -- 71.195.182.195 00:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Beriya was not Armenian, he was a Georgian Jew but the only person who was in the high ranks of the Communist Party at that time who was Armenian was Artem Mikoyan and he aided in policy making, not deporting and starving peoples. Where in the world did you get this erroneous info anon?-- MarshallBagramyan 03:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I lived in the Soviet Union and books like those were viewed unfavorably by the USSR government and hence, were read in secret. It was an omnipresent view held by the people in the USSR. The books didn't have any hint of anti-semitism, they simply stated that Beria was of Jewish descent and undeniably, a corrupt and ruthless "politician" in the Stalin's government, the one who did his dirty work. And Stalin for a fact, was definitely not Jewish. -- MarshallBagramyan 07:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I dont think it is neutral to place "Further information: Denial of Armenian genocide" wherever an opposing view is expressed. You are in effect telling the reader "this is denial". -- A.Garnet 18:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I find A.Garnet's position ridiculous in its entirety. The article already gives too much emphasis on turkish denial, way too much. I don't see a section for neo-Nazi position in the Holocaust article. Add all you want in an Armenian Genocide denial page. It should not be here, as all denial of the Holocaust is in the Revisionism page and not in the main article.-- Eupator 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Fadix, is there a rule that prohibits those who are involved in the article from voting? You are an editor and I think your vote is both legitimate and important. The President of the US can cast a vote for himself, I don't see why can't you.-- TigranTheGreat 10:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This is unfair and can not be the solution to the disputed and questionable genocide allegations. I am taking this issue to the arbitration. There is voting, nodboy is informed, couple of armenians and you remove the tag giving the illusion to people that the issue is not disputed. The tag should stay there and should remain there. Otherwise, I am taking this to the arbitration. Let me know your response in couple of days. -- ramil 21:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
My armenian or pro-armenian friend John Smith. If you call the week as plenty of opportunity, my response to you is that it is nothing more than a perverted understanding of opportunity. Even unimportant elections in US towns take 3 months and that with notification to eveybody.
Also disputed issues should have the disputed tag. That is the rule of the Wikipedia. You can not address it with 8 votes:-)))) 8 votes and that is more than enough for you to lift the tag. My friend I would suggest you to learn more about democracy, elections and voting. Be more tolerant and don't try to manipulate the lack of voice form another side to achieve your dirty puporse of cheating people on alleged and never happened armenian genocide lies. If you want to learn more about armenian lies, I have put the link below in the armenian lies section, you can see it. I am taking it to the arbitration unless you bring back the tag. Rest assured. -- 71.195.182.195 13:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted its authenticity as Genocide.
Further note: It is believed that twenty-five major "concentration camps", why is concentration camps in scare quotes? - FrancisTyers 10:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Instead of editing this article and getting in peoples way, I've copied the article to User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide provisionally. I've adjusted the lead, if people agree with these adjustments and think that it is an improvement then I will continue with the rest of the article. If you disagree with any changes I've made, let me know here and I'll think about if its worth me continuing. - FrancisTyers 01:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've been through the whole thing, see: User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide. I would say that there are still certain "issues" with the text, but I can't fix them as I don't know enough about the subject. One thing that it is sorely missing is inline citations. Stuff like It is believed that most of these were soon executed with a citation would be bad enough, but without a citation shows a significant bias. Who believes this? The discussion about "deportation" is misplaced, as is the comparison with Japanese during WWII, the modern term I think would be internally displaced person. If you think its worth me continuing I'll go through and add fact tags to the parts that, in my opinion, are in dire need of citation. Feel free to edit the page in my userspace if you think I've cut something important. - FrancisTyers 18:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Good except for these things:
(Idiocy Removed)
Thank you for working on this! Pschemp | Talk 04:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Even Hitler once said in reguards to the Jewish Holocaust, "Who remembers the Armenians?" It was to say that no one acknowledged it and he felt people would do the same for the Jewish question. This is wrong! This autrocity commited against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians must be acknowledged. Turkey needs to cede territories stolen from Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. They even discriminate against their own co-religionists, the Kurds. They are not immune to justice. They must make right the wrongs of the past to move forward in peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sargonious ( talk • contribs) .
I just can laugh to this. "needs to cede territories stolen". Are you a kid or something like that. Please make some research about America's history. This article is based on guesses and emotions. It was war times, Russia had attacked to ottomans and Armenians supported them, killed turkish villagers. One more thing, what is israel doing today? Is it genocide? Jewish soldier kills muslim kids. What is this? How can you name it. War? Please if you don't know anything about a topic, i mean deep knowledge just remain silent.
Reşit, from Turkey. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.56.38 ( talk • contribs) .
As far as Israel is concerned Palestine never existed. It was always a part of Greater Syria as was Lebanon. The greedy Arab governments couldn't stand to see non Muslims get their own country. Look at the bloody civil war in Lebanon as an example. Sargonious
[removed comments not related to the article in question, personal attacks, and uncivility - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Eagle, Hi, you'll note I've just removed your comments on this article, if you are going to take part in Wikipedia discussions, please focus your attention on the article in question, not the politics surrounding it. If you wish to discuss politics there are many other bulletin boards around the internet for this purpose.
Please take the time to read, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPOV before you decide to contribute again. Thanks! :) - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Francis, may be you become more civil and tolerant to dissent voice in this heavily armenian biased and dominated web site. The entire isssue of alleged and never happened armenian genocide is political. You recommend me to learn more about Wikipedia policies or rules, but I would recommend you to learn more about politics and regional politics and history before you delete something or argue against of it. Also learn to think critically. Not everythink that armenian zealots say on this page can be true, can they? Unless you are armenian, then it is another issues? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.195.182.195 ( talk • contribs) .
Hi my armenian friend. I don't blame you for your unconditional belief in the never happened happening of the pseudo armenian genocide as this has been and is the official line of the armenian church which has used the genocide to mobilize armenians aroudn one issue, chosen Turks as a scapegoat (not without reason I will come to the reason later)and prevent their assimiliation within western societies. They have definatly been successful in this.
However, the alleged armenian genocide has no parallel to the Jewsih genocide that happened in late 1930s and 1940s. The Jewsish were persecuted by Germans just because they were Jewsih, to acclaim Jewsih belongings and without any ressistance and uprising from Jewsih. They were killed without discrimination. In the case of the armenian issue, what we see is the systematic fighting by armenian militia and fundamentalist groups against Turkey, killins of hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Turks and the real threat to the very existence of Turks and Turky in Anatolia. This has happened thanks to the flow of millions of francs and dollars from the West and the Russian army supplies and you know this better than me. Then Turkey takes measures, kills milita and deports armenians who are used by Western empires to weakenn Turkey and kill Turks, Kurds and muslims.
NOw the Turksih arhchives are open and anybody can see them. You can find the list of killed Azerbaijanis, Kurds and Turks by armenian milita and terrorists in this official web site of the Turksih arhicves department. http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ The number is roughly around 500,000. how this can be compared to Jewsih genocide, which unconditioanally happened, there are facts and these were documented and everybody knows it. But somewhow it happens that only countries which try to use the pseudo "armenian genocide" issue are chrstian states, not a single mostly muslim country has recognized this alleged genocide, where the Jewsih genocide is remembered in all coutnries includin mostly muslim coutnries such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, Usbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tataristan and etc. These are facts my armenian friend, not lies or falsifed facts presented by christian missionaries and the armenian church. Why you don't tell the world how you have killed 500,000 Kurds, Turks and Azerbaijanis. The list is available from the web site I sent to you, not to mention the barbaric killing methods of armenians. -- 71.195.182.195 19:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
"Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur,..." seems a little bit awkward. Any ideas how to fix it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.253.115.104 ( talk • contribs) .
Perhaps it should go "Although many countries have recognized the events of 1915 to fall under the United Nation's definition of genocide, Turkey remains adamant and rejects the notion that the Young Turkish government had established a state-wide policy dedicated to the extermination of the Armenians" or somwhere along those lines. Although I agree, the sentence structure is poorly written. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There were more than 900 thousand Armenians who had been recorded as refugees from Ottoman Empire and surviving WWI. What is called "estimates" above are based on a CLAIMED number of 2.5 million Ottoman Armenians being alive before WWI. After subtracting remaining (about) 1 million Armenians from the CLAIMED number of 2.5 Million Ottoman Armenians we are left with "1.5 million Armenians were killed". Turkey has never denied a large number of its Armenian population lost their lives, from all kinds of reasons including famine and murder. But, Turkey also dares to say, so did Turks and Kurds.
An excellent source on Ottoman Armenians, going through official Ottoman population records is a book by American historian Prof. Justin McCarthy, titled "Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York, New York University Press, 1983. A summary can be found in ( http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/4-McCarty(65-85).pdf)
WWI ended in 1919, for Ottomans, when they surrendered. As you notice, the title of this section reads "1914 to 1923". Why 1923? Because the Armenian propagandists would love to extend their claimed sufferings until the foundation date of modern Turkish Republic (1923). This should be another example on how far the Armenian side can go by "playing with numbers."
Perhaps this could be rewritten and included, perhaps it should be moved to the denial page? - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone please tidy the archives. Today I:
-- RHaworth 12:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd really like to see this [4] picture used on the article. 141.217.84.59 18:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Al those pictures in the article are fake. Look at the first one, soldier are wearing a different type of hat. The Ottomans weared fez's, this is manipulating the history. And if you look at the image were a man is lying death on the ground, you will notice he's wearing typical Turkish dress. And if you look realy good, you will notice on the picture with skeletons that one of the skulls has a fez. Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.224.35.24 ( talk • contribs)
In article, we should add the number of killed turkish people. For example Kars , A city at eastern part of Turkey totaly killed by russions and armenians army. We are not talking about small vileges as you, we are talking about cities. Should we add guys? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.107.250.216 ( talk • contribs) .—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Onuronur ( talk • contribs)
Question - Does the Holocaust article list the number of German casualties at Stalingrad? -- THOTH 22:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Ň
I verified, it is indeed 235 in the English version.
Upon this instruction of the Ministry of the Interior, 235 people were arrested in Istanbul. This day, 24 April, on which the Armenians hold demonstrations each year claiming it is the date of the massacre, is the day when these 235 people were arrested.
I always thought the Turkish version was not exactly the same and therefor trusted those sources using Gurun's book Turkish version as references [5], [www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/24041915/index.html], [6], [7]...
But the official Turkish version has been presented by Esat Uras and is indeed 2,345 (Uras E., Tarihte Ermenliler ve Ermeni Meselesi, 2nd ed., (Istanbul, 1976), p.612). This figure is also in other Turkish publications, like Cem Akaş article, who quote Dr. Heinrich Pudor in Belgelerle Ermeni Sorunu; Genelkurmay, Ankara (1983); p.168. [8], but it seems has been replaced by 'soldiers' in the English version, can anyone check if it is present in Guruns Turkish version and that the translation like in the cases of Uras work?
In any cases, this number is present in Turkish government websites as I have shown above, I will replace the source with Uras. Fad (ix) 19:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure of the source or applicability of the 2,000+ figure in this case however let me make a few points. On the night of April 24 1915 there was a documented round up of 235 prominant Armenians from Istanbul. These individuals were taken away together (though seperated and sent to at least two different destinations en route). At the same time and on or around this same date - a great number of other Armenian civil leaders and political activists and other prominant citizens were rounded up and taken away in cities throghout Anatolia. Additionally this process continued in Istanbul and other cities throghout the following years until 1918 and Turkey's surrender from the war and the CUP abdication. This policy and strategy to round up intellectuals and community leaders - to severe the head of the nation as it were - is a clear sign that the Turks were planning the "final solution" to the "Armenian Question" - ensuring that even if the Ottoman Government failed in the war (as was looking very likely when these round-ups began) and even if the CUP policy to eliminate the Armenians were not to fully suceed before war's end - the Armenian leadership would be destroyed and the Armenian people would have no voice and no hope of quickly reconstituting and being able to articulate themselves and petition for relief from Ottoman Turkish oppression. Of course the presentation should be accurate in terms of numbers - where exact numbers can be known (and who cares what Turkish propoganda claims other then to know and understand how the Turks attempt to continue the Armenian Genocide through denial and distortion). What is important to convery - IMO - is the reasoning behind this action of eliminating the Armenian leadership and educated inteligencia and leading represetnatives of Armenian culture and arts. The motives of the CUP to eliminate such a thing as the Armenian nation begins with these acts - is made evident by such acts. This needs to be properly illustrated and explained.-- THOTH 14:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, after waiting some time after the vote was completed, it seems the voting was successful, and the removal of the POV tag was generally accepted by editors and administrators involved in this page. I would like to congratulate everyone involved here on this occasion--any time a dispute tag is removed, it's a sign of progress for Wikipedia. I would also like to thank everyone who voted and contributed to the process, including to FrancisTyers for his work in tuning the little imperfections of the article to render it ready for POV tag removal. -- TigranTheGreat 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it will ever be possible to get a NPOV on this article. The problem begins with the very title: Armenian Genocide. Since the dispute centers on whether one should call this a genocide, it seems that the very first sentence should make it clear that scholars have not agreed on whether this tragic event is better described as intercommunal violence or genocide.
I notice that Justin McCarthy is in the references, but he is not mentioned in the text. Bernard Lewis is mentioned nowhere. These are not minor scholars, their opinion is respected and it matters what they think. We will not achieve a NPOV by ignoring them.
Perusal of the talk pages suggests that many contributors consider this event as identical in nature to the Holocaust. This is an unfortunate association, since it marks those who would try to present the Turkish view of events as similar to Nazis and Holocaust deniers. We must try to understand the Turkish perspective, not unthinkingly condemn it, since only in that way can we achieve a NPOV.
I think the article can be improved in several significant ways, and I have these suggestions:
Anthon.Eff 18:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a contraversial topic and is most certainly not neutral.
Personally I think that the {{neutrality}} tag should be readded. I made some suggestions earlier and even went through and neutralised the article somewhat but most of the suggestions were ignored. Here are five glaring examples:
- FrancisTyers 00:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
FT's points seem valid and should be looked into. However that does NOT mean the tag should be put back in. As I have pointed out, if every article that needed sorting out/was disputed had a NPOV tag we wouldn't get anywhere. If this page had stayed as it is for months I could understand. However given that certain issues have only just been raised, I think that it is fair to give us all time to address those issues. John Smith's 02:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I have identified some of the problems I see in this article. This is at a glance. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 03:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I must check if Elie Weisile is referenced in the Holocaust article then...obviously the issue is not weather Pamuk is a historian or such - it is the fact that a notable Turkish personage such as himself was indited under a Turkish law that makes uttering such admitences a "Threat to the Turkish State" and punishible by imprisonment...and this is just the tip of the iceburg - where Turkish public schools teach genocide denial and false history and require all student sot write an essay denying the Armenian Genocide before they can graduate...so yeah - i would say that these things - include the incident with Pamuk - which is one of several realted prosecutions BTW - is entirely relevant...that you somehow have the capacity to understand such things is no reason to hold mthe article hostage. -- THOTH 04:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
To not do so - to not accept the Armenian Genocide as a genocide and to not accept the overwhelmingly corraborated acounts that prove it as such is just ignoring the truth and would be wrong. BTW - the proper term for this is denial...Oh and BTW - we have been here before...you may recall the posts that include the definitions of such, the affirmations by the International Association of Genocide scholars and oh BTW the FACT that Raplph Lemkin specifically coined the term to describe what before had no name - and the mass murders and destruction of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire of 1915 was the catalyst for such. Do you dispute any of these contentions? If so then I claim you are setting an unreachable standard for truth - and thus we must slap a POV/disputed not proven fact on the Holocaust article and just about every other historical article. So are we ready to do this and apply the standards equally to all articles? [personal attack removed - FrancisTyers 12:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)] -- THOTH 04:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Cool Cat, FrancisTyers and Shelby28 all seem to agree that there are legitimate grounds to dispute the neutrality of parts of this article. While there are those who dispute this, I think it would be straining a bit to deny that there is a legitimate dispute here and that the reasonable objections should be settled by consensus before it is removed. This requires careful thought and flexibility on all sides. Cool Cat has listed some legitimate points and they should be addressed reasonably and not dismissed outright.
I am going to insert a "NPOV" tag. In doing so I'd like to draw attention to the following principle which was adopted recently by the arbitration committee in the Rajput case:
Thanks everybody in advance for playing nice together and working to make the internet not suck. -- Tony Sidaway 15:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should 3 people's (Cool Cat, FrancisTyers and Shanal) wrong opinion about the subject justify adding {{npov}} ? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Սահակ (
talk •
contribs) 16:33, 18 February 2006.
I feel a bit uncomfortable with the use of the word "Turks" in this sentence - "In August the Russian army left and the Turks re-occupied Van." and throughout the article.
Here we have the "Russian army", but the "Turks" not the "Turkish army" or the "Turkish government". In the WP:MOS, it states "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth."
My preference would be for there be no reference to "Turks" except in the case of "Young Turks", I may be wrong and people may have different opinions. Just drawing it to our collective attention. - FrancisTyers 16:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the list:
The others are OK by me unless anyone else has any objections. - FrancisTyers 20:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Tony, maybe you should check that up and confirm if in fact Coolcat is disrupting again when there is no possible copyright violation for pictures taken before the Soviet Union signed the convention. Those pictures as I have already clarified were from Mus, taken by the Russians and they are not copyrighted neither can they be copyrightable. As it is obvious, even if the pictures could be under the convention they dates at least of 85 years. The source has already been provided in this very same forum.. Fad (ix) 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Cat, I sense that you are finding reasons to cause trouble with these photos. Tell you what, if you want to prove that you are acting on good faith go onto the internet and find us a picture from an Armenian Massacre website that you are satisfied with. Because if you don't, you can claim anything is unverifiable. And if we take that line, every photo on wiki would have to be deleted. John Smith's 19:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
What changes are necessary to this article to make it "neutral"?
Thanks, -Sahak
I have just reread the article in its entirety. I don't see how anyone can legitimatly claim that the article is POV or non-nuetral. In fact I think it more then covers the essential claims and elements of Turkish denial of the Genocide. In a longer article (perhaps in the article being proposed specifically concerning Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - I would expect to see more concerning the evolution of the Turkish position from outright denial that it ever happened to the more current position that while Armenains may have died/suffered so did Turks - etc. Additionally I would expect to see more coverage of the major proponents of the official Turkish "position" and major incidents - such as the Heath Lowery affair - as well as other specifics - such as Turkish funding of Turkish Studies overseas and the role of those recieving these funds in promoting Genocide denial (and the pre-conditions Turkey attaches to their financial aid) etc warrent coverage. The role of the Turkish Government in stifling internal debate and access to information should also be presented - such things as laws forbidding affirmation of the Genocide and attempts on the part of the Turkish judiciary to enforce such as well as basic information concerning how the Turkish public educational system enforces teaching of its specific view denying that a genocide even occured and outright blaming the victims of such (Armenians) for inciting the violence. As for the current article itself - while it contains much accurate and useful information - it lacks a clear flow for the presentation and it is difficult to really understand the relevance and impact of the information presented. I think one area that is clearly lacking in the article is a presentation of the sources of the evidence for the Genocide - the corraborated eywitness accounts and the role of foreign government and missionaries stationed in the Ottoman EMpire in documenting the Genocide. I also feel that the historical context of the Genocide - some of the "why" questions has not been sufficietnly addressed. Likewise the major actors and the variety of means of killing are not clearly presented IMO. In general I find the presentation of the article to be sloppy and somewhat unproffesional and in need of much improvement. However I am reluctant to take on this task without some kind of agreed mandate to do such. I would not be satisfied making only minor changes - bandages on a flawed product. I think a total re-write and reorganization is in order. I disagree with much of the current article's emphasis. The Pamuk incident for instance fails to convey the important underlying issues surounding his indictal and the pop culture section regarding System of a Down is so down in the noise in terms of relvancy and importance I can't see it being included when there is far more relavent information missing. I think a timeline is vital for this as well - with major events and proclimations clearly highlighted - such as passing of the abandoned property act. etc Anyway this is my take on the article. --
THOTH
22:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe the neutrality dispute is over the number of deaths somewhere. I'm not too sure but since there's constant revert wars over this, I'm inclined to keep the POV tag.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
00:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks photgraphs. More need to be added. Armin T. Wegner's as well as John Elder's photographs are a good source, not sure if they are PD or not. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_elder.html -- Eupator 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The exclusion of this website has been discussed on this very same talk page in the past. The author is registered under a proxy and was a user of Wikipedia who uses quotes that do not exist(and I have already provided various such examples here when discussing with him), he slanders scholars personally in his website and the site contains racistic remarks as it has already been shown there. If it is permitted to have the same quality webpages in other Wikipedia articles, I will add this link back. There are already other racistic sites like armenianreality.com, which would have been removed right away if it was inserted in any other Wikipedia article. Fad (ix) 17:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
08:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Believed by who? - FrancisTyers 21:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, the inclusion of "worried about their fate" troubles me, it sounds as if the article is trying to justify the revolt. - FrancisTyers 21:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then might I suggest:
In early 1916, in the city of Ourfa (modern Şanlıurfa) the local Armenian population revolted against the Ottoman government and took control of the old city. Writing in his memoirs, the Austrian Military Plenipotentiary to Turkey during World War I characterised the revolt as "... an act of desperation" by Armenians who, "... recognized that [a] general butchery had begun in the environs of Van and that they would be the next [victims]". The German consul in Aleppo wrote about the revolt in similar terms. insert Turkish POV here.
Again, just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it, change it, write it backwards, forwards, sideways and with BiCaPs or funny şîgŋß :) - FrancisTyers 10:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel it important that we recognize that by putting so strong a warning on a page, we're essentially saying that the information may not be reliable. The information remaining on thi page after such protracted discussions and edits is certainly not biased, especially in light of the supporting documents presented.
Yes, I'm half Armenian. My paternal grandparents were orphaned by the attempted Genocide. My grandparents were 7 or 8 years old when this happened, and most certainly were old enough to remember their parents being murdered.
To dismiss this incredible tragedy, or even cast any question upon its occurance, is to permit it, to encourage it to happen again. It has been reputed that Hitler used the very same logic to assure his close associates that the world would not care, that when challenged, he cited that the world hadn't stopped the Turks from killing Armenians, and neither would they stop him from exterminating the Jews. He very nearly got away with it, just as the Turks have managed to get away with their genocide attempt. It truly is the bane of mankind that we forget. In most cases, history is written by the victors, which certainly explains why even more substantial proof does not exist. But I can assure you, and sign affidavit, that my grandparents existed, that their parents were murdered by the forces behind the Armenian Genocide of 1915, and that this is all very real, no matter how much the Turkish government may attempt to sweep it under the carpet. The ONLY difference between this and the Trail of Tears is that the U.S. government isn't denying that they did it.
It is my opinion that, in consideration of ample evidence that a genocide attempt DID occur, it would be socially irresponsible to even hint at that the Armenian Genocide is a myth or was justified by the excuses presented. To promote such misinformation is certainly far more offensive than the unlikely possibility that the Turks may have had mitigating factors to justify their killings.
Deniers of the Holocaust and deniers of the Armenian Genocide - why should they be treated any differently?
Poland will not let Iran "research" Holocaust
Fri Feb 17, 2006
WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland's Foreign Minister Stefan Meller on Friday ruled out allowing any Iranian researchers to examine the scale of the Holocaust committed by the German Nazis on Polish soil during World War Two.
Meller's remarks came after repeated denials of the Jewish Holocaust by Iranian officials and their suggestions that more research is needed to establish the truth about what happened to European Jews.
"Under no circumstances we should allow something like that to take place in Poland," Meller told Polish news agency PAP. "It goes beyond all imaginable norms to question, even discuss or negotiate the issue."
Polish daily Rzeczpospolita reported on Friday that Iran wants to send researchers to Poland to examine the scale of the Nazi crimes during the war.
Some 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust, with an estimated 1.1 million killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz- Birkenau, a death camp set up in German-occupied Poland.
Last week Iran's ambassador to Lisbon, who in the past served as a diplomat in Poland, said in an interview on Portuguese radio that according to his calculations based on a visit to the camp, now a museum, it would have taken the Nazis 15 years to burn the corpses of 6 million people.
-- THOTH 06:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
[offensive, unconstructive, personal attacks and incivility deleted - FrancisTyers 21:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where the author was coming from, but that person does not represent the "typical" Armenian, in mindset or otherwise. We don't hate on a broad-scale basis, and we don't consider people to be worthy of death, etc. There are extremists in any classification of people. I am not apologetic about how much it bothers me that Turkey would continue to deny their country's actions, and that they refuse to make reparations is likewise highly upsetting. It's reasonable that we be bothered by this. They attempted to exterminate us, and don't even grant us the dignity of recognition. But the solution is not found in revenge on people who weren't even alive when it happened. Contrition and returning some homeland to us IS within Turkey's abilities, though.
Imagine, if you will, that your ancestors for the past several thousand years lived in a region rich in history and culture, with mountains, deserts and seas. Relative newcomers sweep down from elsewhere, camp alongside... and you embrace them, allow that there's room enough for all. But they soon begin to take over, and essentially occupy you and your people. Then one day, with no valid cause or justification, they try to wipe you off the face of the planet and take your lands from you. Can you imagine that? Are you German? Irish? Swedish, French, Portuguese? You can still visit your heritage. When you take a taxi back there, the drivers and people don't deny that you existed for thousands of years. They don't usurp your architecture and claim it for their own. I'm not sure you can imagine it.
I'm first generation here in the States. My father was 1st generation in France, and my grandparents were born in Armenia, taken out of there at less than 7 years of age, orphaned by this genocide attempt that the Turks (people AND government, for the most part) still say never happened. By rights, I should be able to return to Armenia, see the history, the culture, perhaps even elect to live there. But I cannot. They took my great grandparent's lives, and continue to take that heritage to this day. Nothing can be done about their lives, and it's too late for them to replace the lack of affection that my grandparents suffered in an orphanage, the scars and memories of their parents' murder. It's too late to change how that affected my own father, and how he passed it on to me. But it's NOT too late for them to atone for it, and the first step is admitting that it happened.
I posted before about this: I remain bothered that this is being flagged as "disputed". It implies that the entire Genocide may not have happened. You effectively join them in preventing even that first step. Moderate the article as is proper; make sure that it follows reasonable fact, but... Please... do the right thing. Take off that flag. JT 06:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Uhm, mind signing your post? And it's not rhetoric, and you don't address any of that. Are you Turkish, by chance? While I'm asking questions, do you believe that the suicide bombers represent the mindset of most muslims, too? JT 06:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Does exclaiming it make you any more right? Sorry, you just sidestepped and waffled your way aound the point. There are some few extremists, muslim, Armenian, whatever... but to even think of judging a whole nation of people on that basis is highly irrational, and EXACTLY what you just did when you said Armenian is very specific so you can't reallycompare the two". You just tried to justify labeling a whole nationality based on the actions of a few. Tell me something: If it didn't happen, where did those million people go to? How did my great-grandparents become orphans? And, to be blunt, where do you get off trying to sweep it all under the carpet, anyway? Please tell me you're not a moderator for this subject.
I dont't need a Forum, Francis. And you're right, Wikipedia is NOT a message board. It's SUPPOSED to be based on facts and information. So, with so much of the world recognizing the genocide as historical fact, why is it being allowed to turn into a political boxing ring? Why is there any Flag on this article, if it's being pursued academically? I'm not trying to jump your case personally, I'm pointing out that the few "Typical Armenian Mindset" people who would, for whatever reason, like to sweep the genocide under the carpet, are being allowed to rewrite history. History has already been rewritten by the victors enough, and for too long. I don't find it ethical that Wikipedia cast any sort of questionable haze onto the fact that it happened. Feel free to write me privately. JT 14:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Like I already said, this picture does not represent victims of the genocide, I questioned its uses and what it truly represent. In my belief it is an Ottoman army contingent who after fighting have removed the dress of a Russian white battalion defeat to than dessring with their victims uniform and shutting a picture of them. It could have been Russian Armenian battalion fighting for their Tsar or etc., but I doubt this picture represent genocide victims. Fad (ix) 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I know, there was discussion about the subject in the past, but it's exhausting to try to wade through it all. When I clicked on the link to the original, I found that: 1) The image has been flipped horizontally, and lightened (which gives it a less clear appearance and less grim "feel.") I suggest reverting to the source image, cropping to remove the original photo's text, if necessary. I realize it may have been flipped horizontally for appearance's sake but the image is less powerful as presented. I can do this, if requested, but it's not my intention to get into an editing war, so I'm putting it up here to discuss first.
2) Why is there still a "disputed" flag on the article? To the general public, this suggests that the fact of the genocide itself is in dispute.
Thank you. JT 02:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you start signing your posts? It should have the REALITY of the original picture, not be literally whitewashed so that it doesn't show the harshness of what happened (and continues to happen when people are made to starve to death. JT 02:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Its tragic that this is occuring in a so called open source project!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.78.111.190 ( talk • contribs) 26 Feb 2006.
Well, seems like the censorship boys are back! The fact of the matter is that both of you are the real revisionists here, anything that doesnt suit your agenda, you eliminate and the proof of this is in the history of this topic. Oh and THOTH, im a bit dissappointed by you, cant you come up with something better than the lame "character assassination" accusation? LOL. Oh and give us a valid argument for removing TAT in the opposing section instead of providing your trademark silly and obscure comments. After all you you dont seem to mind poorly constructed sites like "armenian reality"! Its clear to me that TAT's comprehensive analysis is not at all in your interest!
FADIX you are at it again, you accuse the TAT guy of this and that, but dont mention any concrete examples of outright racism and fabrications because I dont know about you but those are serious allegations you are making! If you want to get the message through, give concrete examples not just vague accustations that you seem to be so accustomed to making!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
It's just pointless anonymous accusation. I'd recommend to ignore it. -- tasc 22:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
and since his integrity is being questioned, his views cannot be taken seriously—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
FADIX, once again you fabricate your way through, your claims that Akçam was an angel reflects a systematic pattern of deception from your behalf. Do you realize the damage you do by trying to distort facts? Get real, this guy is a convicted terrorist, the reason why he was not arrested when he went back to Turkey was because his warrant expired. I think the fact he was not arrested reflects positively on the rule of law in Turkey! 83.76.136.222 07:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Stop using foul language you naughty boy. Now I havent event visited the sites you are referring to, its probably a treasure chest of baseless allegations. Your arguments tend to be extremely hollow, just an endless stream of hot air with nothing really tangible. Sad, really! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
It is just like Turkish deniers to attack the person and not the (true) message - look at Pamuk for instance - he is a "traitor" etc. Anyway - Akcam is fully accepted as a scholar and a scholar of the Armenian Genocide at that. Furthmore the fact that he is on the leading edge of Turkish scholars who are approaching the Genocide and the history of the period from a perspective of historical truth and not repeating CUP and current Turkish Government racist propoganda is certainly something to be noted. Additionally the analysis Akcam provides is right on the money and is most relevant and illustrative of not only the dynamics of the Genocide - but as much or even more so concerning the dynamics of Turkish denial. He is a serious scholar whose views deserve the utmost consideration - not character assasination. These bogus charges against him are a joke - and are typical of the culture of denial and of the problems Turkey has had with dissent. I could not see the views of any current American or European scholar being dismissed strictly because he had been charged or even convicted of civil disobedience at some point in his past during his youth...come now...this is incredibly weak - as are - of course - all of the Turkish arguments in denial of the Genocide. Isn't it time to both face up to the past...and to get back on topic? (of course this type of character assasination is about the only trick left in the Turkish denialist book at this point) -- THOTH 12:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I see you've only edited this particular artical. Seems, like you're pushing POV here. And you're not taking part in the discussion. -- tasc 21:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
From a partial point of view, it's just funny that Armenians spent this much money, time and effort in propagating unfounded claims. (No partial and respected historian classify these events as genocide). Zevaco —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.189.161.150 ( talk • contribs)
The current lead sentance reads: "The Armenian Genocide was the claim that deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I."
Why the past-tense? Is it no longer a claim? I'm guessing this is a POV insert to try and soften the lead. Pugget ( talk) 09:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Whatever the status of this opening sentence as fact or claim, present tense or past tense, it remains bad and ungrammatical English as it lacks a main verb. It could be improved by adding the words "took place" after "Ottoman Empire". An alternative, but obviously more contentious, improvement to the grammar of the sentence would be to remove the words "was the claim that" and replace them with the words "refers to the". But I can't see how to do this, as I can't find an edit button for the opening paragraph of this article.
Solaricon (
talk)
10:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
In the current lead there is a claim: “with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one a half million”, I have tried to change this supported by sources to “three hundred thousand to one a half million”, which also the same presented in section “Armenian population, deaths, survivors, 1914 to 1918”. My change was on several times reverted. If one desires to make any corrections to this article full of flaws and bias statements an edit war seems inevitable. Hittit ( talk) 20:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
It is a still disputed event of history and there is no consensus by hitorians, though there is one by Ottoman history experts but of course you wouldn't accept that. These are claims and the article should reflect that. Wiki shouldn't take a side but show it as the way it is.
The number of deaths is not 1.5 million for Western sources. The article that MarshallBagramyan references as a "Western Source" says "Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey." Though the source is from BBC the claim is made by Armenia rather than "Western Sources." What the Western sources agree on is maximum of 1.5 million Armenian living in Ottoman Empire prior to WWI. It's only Armenian sources that equates this number of deaths to 1.5 million.
There are many other poorly done recent edits in this article by MarshallBagramyan. A detailed revision of these edits is needed. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 05:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Bernard Lewis - Professor Emeritus of Islamic History and Middle Eastern Studies, Princeton University, MA in Middle Eastern History and PhD in Islamic Studies, University of London.
Justin McCarthy - Professor of History and Demographer, Louisville University. Ph.D. in history, University of California, Los Angeles.
Andrew Mango - Researcher, author and historian, University of London. PhD in Persian Literature, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS).
Heath W. Lowry - Mustafa Kemal Ataturk Professor of Ottoman and Modern Turkish Studies, Princeton University.
Edward J. Erickson - Researcher, Birmingham University, retired Lieutenant-Colonel, PhD in Ottoman Military History, The Leeds University.
Gwynne Dyer - Historian, military analyst and journalist, Ph.D. in Ottoman military history, The King’s College London.
Arend Jan Boekestijn - Lecturer in history of international relations, History Department at Utrecht University, Netherlands.
Jeremy Salt - Ph.D., Middle Eastern History, Melbourne University, 1980. Middle Eastern Studies.
Michael M. Gunter - Professor of political science, Tennessee Technical University, PhD in International Relations, The Kent State University.
Eberhard Jäckel - Professor Emeritus of modern world history, Stuttgart University.
Guenter Lewy - Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
Stanford Shaw - Professor Emeritus of History, UCLA.
Norman Stone - Former professor of Modern History at Oxford and lecturer at Cambridge, adviser to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.
Hew Strachan - Chichele Professor of the History of War, University of Oxford.
Brian G. Williams - Associate Professor of Islamic History at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth, PhD in Middle Eastern and Islamic Central Asian History. University of Wisconsin, Madison.
Gilles Veinstein - Professor, Turkish and Ottoman History, Collège de France.
Robert F. Zeidner - Ph.D. in Ottoman Military history. Universiy of Utah, Middle East Center.
The fact that a genocide occurred is established beyond any reasonable point of debate. Whether or not Turkish historians (or you) accept it is neither here nor there; that is a 'claim' that it did not happen. A false claim, in the face of overwhelming evidence. The exact number of deaths may - may - be open to discussion, But the fact that a genocide occurred is not. CheesyBiscuit ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) For information, this argument has expanded to here —Preceding unsigned comment added by CheesyBiscuit ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
I don't see why we need to have the POV tag here. The article doesn't assert the views, all the disputed parts are labeled as "alleged," the article talks both about the Turkish and mainstream point of views--I suggest the POV be removed. If someone objects, they will need to make a good case.-- TigranTheGreat 12:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Aren't all of the Armenian contributions to Ottoman civilization covered in the Ottoman Empire entires? (are these really just alleged contributions?) If not perhaps these need to be modified to properly reflect Armenian contributions first before we move on to just why Armenians became the victims of the dominant Ottoman Turkish elements of the society. Oh and BTW - only Turks (perhaps aided by some Kurds and Circassians and some Balkan and other various Turkics - commited Genocide [against Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians])...-- THOTH 05:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I am neutral on this topic and after reading the article, I think the NPOV tag needs to go. Of course many people of Turkish origin think this whole topic is not NPOV but the way the article is written is neutral. You don't need every single Turkish allegation and rationalization because they are addressed generally. Take the tag off please. Pschemp | Talk 06:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Do the Nazis get to push their POV about the Final Solution, about how the Jews "violently resisted the peaceful breakup of the ghetos", "slipped intelligence to the Allies", "manipulated the war through their evil global conspiracy", etc? I think we should have a formal vote if Fadix or an admin won't do the job. John Smith's 08:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with users Pschemp and John Smith above - article is most politically correct as it stands (too much so IMO) - and certainly should not have a POV lable on it any more then the Holocaust article should. Outside of (so-called) scholars who explicitly are funded by Turkey or who have very obvious ties to Turkey there are very few - if any - scholars who truly deny the Armenian Genocide and would dispute any facts or positions contained in this article. It is most shameful that some Turks are so fanatically blindly nationalistic that they cannot accept the facts in this case even though the world and scholars are pretty convinced concerning what occured. It is also most sad that we are held hostage by this denial. I argue that this article needs to be entirely rewritten and reorganized to more resemble that of the Holocaust article. It requires more background explanation and discussion however as their is less common familiarity with the events and circumstances of the Armenian Genocide and of the Armenian experience in the ottoman Empire prior to the Genocide then there is of the Jewish experience in Germany prior to WWII and the events leading to and comprising the Jewish (and other peoples) Holocaust enacted by the Nazi Germans in WWII. Likewise I am in favor of covering a variety of events and circumstances concerning conditions and events affecting the Ottoman Empire prior to the leading up to the Armenian Genocide which I feel are important for a proper understanding and context of this event. -- THOTH 13:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have created a poll, so please vote at the bottom. John Smith's 15:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion as a student of history at Manhattan College, Dr. Balakian spoke at my school about it and this entry is a far more neutral article than what he spoke about during the lecture. so As a Turkish student none the less of History the NPOV tag should be taken off. There is no bias both sides are given, its Dr. Balakian you need to talk to the guy that wrote the Burning Tigris or something like that ~Pinar
By the way, has anyone ever looked on the first photo at the article page?Hahah!If you look, you will see the Russian hats on the heads of Ottoman officers.
Look carefully.Have Ottomans ever used the hats like those?
Strange, apparently this website [1] about the Ottoman Empire does show pictures of those hats. Conspiracy perhaps??-- MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Again for this article, i can just LAUGH. Please make some DEEP research and after that try to write a NEUTRAL article, i say it to main articles writer.
Reşit, from Turkey —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.56.38 ( talk • contribs) .
You guys are bunch of idiots. The officers are Russians that discovered the bodies and apparently took pictures. No turk would like to take a picture and document the fact.
HAHA...........
Ok, this is a simple vote that should last no longer than seven days. A simple majority should suffice. No anon-IPs please. The question is:
"SHOULD WE REMOVE THE NPOV TAG FROM THE ARTICLE?"
++VOTING CLOSED++ There has not been one dissenting voice on the vote after several days, so I am removing the tag as of now. John Smith's 23:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It appears to me this page is completely dominated by those who have a stake in this matter, and naturally this sort of vote will garner such a result. In order to have dissenting voices, dissenting parties would need to dedicate themselves as eagerly as those for whom this matter means so much. The fact that this page is stable points not to the truthfulness of many of the claims, but to the commitment of those who have made this page their calling; this article is not, in any shape or form, "objective," and does not at all "present both sides of the story." Blissmiss 07:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, your sentence above does not fit the real facts on the ground. The genocide is not accpeted and characterized as a big lie in Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan, China, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Tataristan, and almost all muslim countries. There was one who said that Leabon pseudo recognized the alleged genocide, there is no credible source to approve that. No official gov't wweb site of Lebanon talks about the alleged and lie armenian genocide. As to other countries except 15 mostly christian countries no country has recognized the genocide. Even the US characterizes it as a massacare. Your armenian love or fundamentalism has closed your eyes to reality and real facts. Try to be more correct. -- 71.195.182.195 09:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, yes it does and it does well. The countries that recognize the alleged and lie based armenian genocide are the biggest genocide doers and now they with zealot woudl like to balckmail the Turkey and label it as one of them as well. Becasue pseudo for them it would reavealing that they weren't alone in the world. The biggest genociders are France, Germany, Italy, and UK. Don't forget that 3 million died with direct inaction of the British in Bengal in 1940s. The germans killed 6 or more Jewish. I especially see the activeness of the German as they did such a wrong thing and now try to label Turkey as genocider, as this will give them the psychological releif that they are not so horrible. You just might be a German or European who have been the biggest and largest genociders in the world and nothing will clean this.
So as we see the countries that recognize the alleged armenian genocide and armenian lies are those countries which have done the biggest genocides in the world. See who are recognizing the alleged armenian genocide. -- 71.195.182.230 17:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Gidonb, the armenian loved and faked words of Hitler is nothing more than the myth as the armenian genocide allegations. You know that better than me. Also would like to note that UK hasn't recognized the alleged armenian genocide. In other countries they were done mostly bby some group of parlamentarians, who are most likely anti muslim, anti Turk and or christian fundamentalists. So as yo u see the armenians millions are going to toilet as the flush of water. I woudl suggest those armenian diaspora people to spend this money for armenians who are dieing in armenia from poverty. It would be interesting for you to know that half of the armenian population has already left armenia. So funny that most of armenians as you gidonband and lovers of armenians for this or another reason always try to relate the armenian genocide to notorious people in the world therefore trying to justify their position. So far these are Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. God known who will be tomorrow. May be the Pope Rome himlself. Haaaaaaaaaaaaa:)))))Ramil -- 71.195.182.195 19:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Also I don't know why Armenians want to hide that one of the biggest genociders in the world was Armenian. Lavrenty Beriya was an armenian and the right hand of Stalin. Indeed the entire massacre of intellectuals and anti-soviet people had been directly managed by Lavrenty Beriya, not by Stalin. He has killed by some estimations 30 million people in the entire former Soviet Union. Do you the see the parallel between the tendency of Lavrenty Beriya to commit genocide, and armenian in Turkey in 1915 who killed half a million Kurds and some Turks.
Why you don't tell the truth? WHy you don't tell that one the biggest genocider in the world was Armeninan, Lavrenty Beriya. His genocide may be exceeds the genocide committed by Hitler. -- 71.195.182.195 00:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Beriya was not Armenian, he was a Georgian Jew but the only person who was in the high ranks of the Communist Party at that time who was Armenian was Artem Mikoyan and he aided in policy making, not deporting and starving peoples. Where in the world did you get this erroneous info anon?-- MarshallBagramyan 03:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I lived in the Soviet Union and books like those were viewed unfavorably by the USSR government and hence, were read in secret. It was an omnipresent view held by the people in the USSR. The books didn't have any hint of anti-semitism, they simply stated that Beria was of Jewish descent and undeniably, a corrupt and ruthless "politician" in the Stalin's government, the one who did his dirty work. And Stalin for a fact, was definitely not Jewish. -- MarshallBagramyan 07:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I dont think it is neutral to place "Further information: Denial of Armenian genocide" wherever an opposing view is expressed. You are in effect telling the reader "this is denial". -- A.Garnet 18:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I find A.Garnet's position ridiculous in its entirety. The article already gives too much emphasis on turkish denial, way too much. I don't see a section for neo-Nazi position in the Holocaust article. Add all you want in an Armenian Genocide denial page. It should not be here, as all denial of the Holocaust is in the Revisionism page and not in the main article.-- Eupator 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Fadix, is there a rule that prohibits those who are involved in the article from voting? You are an editor and I think your vote is both legitimate and important. The President of the US can cast a vote for himself, I don't see why can't you.-- TigranTheGreat 10:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This is unfair and can not be the solution to the disputed and questionable genocide allegations. I am taking this issue to the arbitration. There is voting, nodboy is informed, couple of armenians and you remove the tag giving the illusion to people that the issue is not disputed. The tag should stay there and should remain there. Otherwise, I am taking this to the arbitration. Let me know your response in couple of days. -- ramil 21:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
My armenian or pro-armenian friend John Smith. If you call the week as plenty of opportunity, my response to you is that it is nothing more than a perverted understanding of opportunity. Even unimportant elections in US towns take 3 months and that with notification to eveybody.
Also disputed issues should have the disputed tag. That is the rule of the Wikipedia. You can not address it with 8 votes:-)))) 8 votes and that is more than enough for you to lift the tag. My friend I would suggest you to learn more about democracy, elections and voting. Be more tolerant and don't try to manipulate the lack of voice form another side to achieve your dirty puporse of cheating people on alleged and never happened armenian genocide lies. If you want to learn more about armenian lies, I have put the link below in the armenian lies section, you can see it. I am taking it to the arbitration unless you bring back the tag. Rest assured. -- 71.195.182.195 13:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted its authenticity as Genocide.
Further note: It is believed that twenty-five major "concentration camps", why is concentration camps in scare quotes? - FrancisTyers 10:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Instead of editing this article and getting in peoples way, I've copied the article to User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide provisionally. I've adjusted the lead, if people agree with these adjustments and think that it is an improvement then I will continue with the rest of the article. If you disagree with any changes I've made, let me know here and I'll think about if its worth me continuing. - FrancisTyers 01:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've been through the whole thing, see: User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide. I would say that there are still certain "issues" with the text, but I can't fix them as I don't know enough about the subject. One thing that it is sorely missing is inline citations. Stuff like It is believed that most of these were soon executed with a citation would be bad enough, but without a citation shows a significant bias. Who believes this? The discussion about "deportation" is misplaced, as is the comparison with Japanese during WWII, the modern term I think would be internally displaced person. If you think its worth me continuing I'll go through and add fact tags to the parts that, in my opinion, are in dire need of citation. Feel free to edit the page in my userspace if you think I've cut something important. - FrancisTyers 18:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Good except for these things:
(Idiocy Removed)
Thank you for working on this! Pschemp | Talk 04:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Even Hitler once said in reguards to the Jewish Holocaust, "Who remembers the Armenians?" It was to say that no one acknowledged it and he felt people would do the same for the Jewish question. This is wrong! This autrocity commited against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians must be acknowledged. Turkey needs to cede territories stolen from Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. They even discriminate against their own co-religionists, the Kurds. They are not immune to justice. They must make right the wrongs of the past to move forward in peace. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sargonious ( talk • contribs) .
I just can laugh to this. "needs to cede territories stolen". Are you a kid or something like that. Please make some research about America's history. This article is based on guesses and emotions. It was war times, Russia had attacked to ottomans and Armenians supported them, killed turkish villagers. One more thing, what is israel doing today? Is it genocide? Jewish soldier kills muslim kids. What is this? How can you name it. War? Please if you don't know anything about a topic, i mean deep knowledge just remain silent.
Reşit, from Turkey. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.96.56.38 ( talk • contribs) .
As far as Israel is concerned Palestine never existed. It was always a part of Greater Syria as was Lebanon. The greedy Arab governments couldn't stand to see non Muslims get their own country. Look at the bloody civil war in Lebanon as an example. Sargonious
[removed comments not related to the article in question, personal attacks, and uncivility - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Eagle, Hi, you'll note I've just removed your comments on this article, if you are going to take part in Wikipedia discussions, please focus your attention on the article in question, not the politics surrounding it. If you wish to discuss politics there are many other bulletin boards around the internet for this purpose.
Please take the time to read, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPOV before you decide to contribute again. Thanks! :) - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Francis, may be you become more civil and tolerant to dissent voice in this heavily armenian biased and dominated web site. The entire isssue of alleged and never happened armenian genocide is political. You recommend me to learn more about Wikipedia policies or rules, but I would recommend you to learn more about politics and regional politics and history before you delete something or argue against of it. Also learn to think critically. Not everythink that armenian zealots say on this page can be true, can they? Unless you are armenian, then it is another issues? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.195.182.195 ( talk • contribs) .
Hi my armenian friend. I don't blame you for your unconditional belief in the never happened happening of the pseudo armenian genocide as this has been and is the official line of the armenian church which has used the genocide to mobilize armenians aroudn one issue, chosen Turks as a scapegoat (not without reason I will come to the reason later)and prevent their assimiliation within western societies. They have definatly been successful in this.
However, the alleged armenian genocide has no parallel to the Jewsih genocide that happened in late 1930s and 1940s. The Jewsish were persecuted by Germans just because they were Jewsih, to acclaim Jewsih belongings and without any ressistance and uprising from Jewsih. They were killed without discrimination. In the case of the armenian issue, what we see is the systematic fighting by armenian militia and fundamentalist groups against Turkey, killins of hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Turks and the real threat to the very existence of Turks and Turky in Anatolia. This has happened thanks to the flow of millions of francs and dollars from the West and the Russian army supplies and you know this better than me. Then Turkey takes measures, kills milita and deports armenians who are used by Western empires to weakenn Turkey and kill Turks, Kurds and muslims.
NOw the Turksih arhchives are open and anybody can see them. You can find the list of killed Azerbaijanis, Kurds and Turks by armenian milita and terrorists in this official web site of the Turksih arhicves department. http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ The number is roughly around 500,000. how this can be compared to Jewsih genocide, which unconditioanally happened, there are facts and these were documented and everybody knows it. But somewhow it happens that only countries which try to use the pseudo "armenian genocide" issue are chrstian states, not a single mostly muslim country has recognized this alleged genocide, where the Jewsih genocide is remembered in all coutnries includin mostly muslim coutnries such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, Usbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tataristan and etc. These are facts my armenian friend, not lies or falsifed facts presented by christian missionaries and the armenian church. Why you don't tell the world how you have killed 500,000 Kurds, Turks and Azerbaijanis. The list is available from the web site I sent to you, not to mention the barbaric killing methods of armenians. -- 71.195.182.195 19:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
"Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur,..." seems a little bit awkward. Any ideas how to fix it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.253.115.104 ( talk • contribs) .
Perhaps it should go "Although many countries have recognized the events of 1915 to fall under the United Nation's definition of genocide, Turkey remains adamant and rejects the notion that the Young Turkish government had established a state-wide policy dedicated to the extermination of the Armenians" or somwhere along those lines. Although I agree, the sentence structure is poorly written. -- MarshallBagramyan 06:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
There were more than 900 thousand Armenians who had been recorded as refugees from Ottoman Empire and surviving WWI. What is called "estimates" above are based on a CLAIMED number of 2.5 million Ottoman Armenians being alive before WWI. After subtracting remaining (about) 1 million Armenians from the CLAIMED number of 2.5 Million Ottoman Armenians we are left with "1.5 million Armenians were killed". Turkey has never denied a large number of its Armenian population lost their lives, from all kinds of reasons including famine and murder. But, Turkey also dares to say, so did Turks and Kurds.
An excellent source on Ottoman Armenians, going through official Ottoman population records is a book by American historian Prof. Justin McCarthy, titled "Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York, New York University Press, 1983. A summary can be found in ( http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/4-McCarty(65-85).pdf)
WWI ended in 1919, for Ottomans, when they surrendered. As you notice, the title of this section reads "1914 to 1923". Why 1923? Because the Armenian propagandists would love to extend their claimed sufferings until the foundation date of modern Turkish Republic (1923). This should be another example on how far the Armenian side can go by "playing with numbers."
Perhaps this could be rewritten and included, perhaps it should be moved to the denial page? - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone please tidy the archives. Today I:
-- RHaworth 12:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd really like to see this [4] picture used on the article. 141.217.84.59 18:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Al those pictures in the article are fake. Look at the first one, soldier are wearing a different type of hat. The Ottomans weared fez's, this is manipulating the history. And if you look at the image were a man is lying death on the ground, you will notice he's wearing typical Turkish dress. And if you look realy good, you will notice on the picture with skeletons that one of the skulls has a fez. Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.224.35.24 ( talk • contribs)
In article, we should add the number of killed turkish people. For example Kars , A city at eastern part of Turkey totaly killed by russions and armenians army. We are not talking about small vileges as you, we are talking about cities. Should we add guys? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.107.250.216 ( talk • contribs) .—Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Onuronur ( talk • contribs)
Question - Does the Holocaust article list the number of German casualties at Stalingrad? -- THOTH 22:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Ň
I verified, it is indeed 235 in the English version.
Upon this instruction of the Ministry of the Interior, 235 people were arrested in Istanbul. This day, 24 April, on which the Armenians hold demonstrations each year claiming it is the date of the massacre, is the day when these 235 people were arrested.
I always thought the Turkish version was not exactly the same and therefor trusted those sources using Gurun's book Turkish version as references [5], [www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/24041915/index.html], [6], [7]...
But the official Turkish version has been presented by Esat Uras and is indeed 2,345 (Uras E., Tarihte Ermenliler ve Ermeni Meselesi, 2nd ed., (Istanbul, 1976), p.612). This figure is also in other Turkish publications, like Cem Akaş article, who quote Dr. Heinrich Pudor in Belgelerle Ermeni Sorunu; Genelkurmay, Ankara (1983); p.168. [8], but it seems has been replaced by 'soldiers' in the English version, can anyone check if it is present in Guruns Turkish version and that the translation like in the cases of Uras work?
In any cases, this number is present in Turkish government websites as I have shown above, I will replace the source with Uras. Fad (ix) 19:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure of the source or applicability of the 2,000+ figure in this case however let me make a few points. On the night of April 24 1915 there was a documented round up of 235 prominant Armenians from Istanbul. These individuals were taken away together (though seperated and sent to at least two different destinations en route). At the same time and on or around this same date - a great number of other Armenian civil leaders and political activists and other prominant citizens were rounded up and taken away in cities throghout Anatolia. Additionally this process continued in Istanbul and other cities throghout the following years until 1918 and Turkey's surrender from the war and the CUP abdication. This policy and strategy to round up intellectuals and community leaders - to severe the head of the nation as it were - is a clear sign that the Turks were planning the "final solution" to the "Armenian Question" - ensuring that even if the Ottoman Government failed in the war (as was looking very likely when these round-ups began) and even if the CUP policy to eliminate the Armenians were not to fully suceed before war's end - the Armenian leadership would be destroyed and the Armenian people would have no voice and no hope of quickly reconstituting and being able to articulate themselves and petition for relief from Ottoman Turkish oppression. Of course the presentation should be accurate in terms of numbers - where exact numbers can be known (and who cares what Turkish propoganda claims other then to know and understand how the Turks attempt to continue the Armenian Genocide through denial and distortion). What is important to convery - IMO - is the reasoning behind this action of eliminating the Armenian leadership and educated inteligencia and leading represetnatives of Armenian culture and arts. The motives of the CUP to eliminate such a thing as the Armenian nation begins with these acts - is made evident by such acts. This needs to be properly illustrated and explained.-- THOTH 14:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, after waiting some time after the vote was completed, it seems the voting was successful, and the removal of the POV tag was generally accepted by editors and administrators involved in this page. I would like to congratulate everyone involved here on this occasion--any time a dispute tag is removed, it's a sign of progress for Wikipedia. I would also like to thank everyone who voted and contributed to the process, including to FrancisTyers for his work in tuning the little imperfections of the article to render it ready for POV tag removal. -- TigranTheGreat 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if it will ever be possible to get a NPOV on this article. The problem begins with the very title: Armenian Genocide. Since the dispute centers on whether one should call this a genocide, it seems that the very first sentence should make it clear that scholars have not agreed on whether this tragic event is better described as intercommunal violence or genocide.
I notice that Justin McCarthy is in the references, but he is not mentioned in the text. Bernard Lewis is mentioned nowhere. These are not minor scholars, their opinion is respected and it matters what they think. We will not achieve a NPOV by ignoring them.
Perusal of the talk pages suggests that many contributors consider this event as identical in nature to the Holocaust. This is an unfortunate association, since it marks those who would try to present the Turkish view of events as similar to Nazis and Holocaust deniers. We must try to understand the Turkish perspective, not unthinkingly condemn it, since only in that way can we achieve a NPOV.
I think the article can be improved in several significant ways, and I have these suggestions:
Anthon.Eff 18:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a contraversial topic and is most certainly not neutral.
Personally I think that the {{neutrality}} tag should be readded. I made some suggestions earlier and even went through and neutralised the article somewhat but most of the suggestions were ignored. Here are five glaring examples:
- FrancisTyers 00:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
FT's points seem valid and should be looked into. However that does NOT mean the tag should be put back in. As I have pointed out, if every article that needed sorting out/was disputed had a NPOV tag we wouldn't get anywhere. If this page had stayed as it is for months I could understand. However given that certain issues have only just been raised, I think that it is fair to give us all time to address those issues. John Smith's 02:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I have identified some of the problems I see in this article. This is at a glance. -- Cool Cat Talk| @ 03:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I must check if Elie Weisile is referenced in the Holocaust article then...obviously the issue is not weather Pamuk is a historian or such - it is the fact that a notable Turkish personage such as himself was indited under a Turkish law that makes uttering such admitences a "Threat to the Turkish State" and punishible by imprisonment...and this is just the tip of the iceburg - where Turkish public schools teach genocide denial and false history and require all student sot write an essay denying the Armenian Genocide before they can graduate...so yeah - i would say that these things - include the incident with Pamuk - which is one of several realted prosecutions BTW - is entirely relevant...that you somehow have the capacity to understand such things is no reason to hold mthe article hostage. -- THOTH 04:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
To not do so - to not accept the Armenian Genocide as a genocide and to not accept the overwhelmingly corraborated acounts that prove it as such is just ignoring the truth and would be wrong. BTW - the proper term for this is denial...Oh and BTW - we have been here before...you may recall the posts that include the definitions of such, the affirmations by the International Association of Genocide scholars and oh BTW the FACT that Raplph Lemkin specifically coined the term to describe what before had no name - and the mass murders and destruction of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire of 1915 was the catalyst for such. Do you dispute any of these contentions? If so then I claim you are setting an unreachable standard for truth - and thus we must slap a POV/disputed not proven fact on the Holocaust article and just about every other historical article. So are we ready to do this and apply the standards equally to all articles? [personal attack removed - FrancisTyers 12:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)] -- THOTH 04:36, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Cool Cat, FrancisTyers and Shelby28 all seem to agree that there are legitimate grounds to dispute the neutrality of parts of this article. While there are those who dispute this, I think it would be straining a bit to deny that there is a legitimate dispute here and that the reasonable objections should be settled by consensus before it is removed. This requires careful thought and flexibility on all sides. Cool Cat has listed some legitimate points and they should be addressed reasonably and not dismissed outright.
I am going to insert a "NPOV" tag. In doing so I'd like to draw attention to the following principle which was adopted recently by the arbitration committee in the Rajput case:
Thanks everybody in advance for playing nice together and working to make the internet not suck. -- Tony Sidaway 15:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Why should 3 people's (Cool Cat, FrancisTyers and Shanal) wrong opinion about the subject justify adding {{npov}} ? —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Սահակ (
talk •
contribs) 16:33, 18 February 2006.
I feel a bit uncomfortable with the use of the word "Turks" in this sentence - "In August the Russian army left and the Turks re-occupied Van." and throughout the article.
Here we have the "Russian army", but the "Turks" not the "Turkish army" or the "Turkish government". In the WP:MOS, it states "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth."
My preference would be for there be no reference to "Turks" except in the case of "Young Turks", I may be wrong and people may have different opinions. Just drawing it to our collective attention. - FrancisTyers 16:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is the list:
The others are OK by me unless anyone else has any objections. - FrancisTyers 20:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Tony, maybe you should check that up and confirm if in fact Coolcat is disrupting again when there is no possible copyright violation for pictures taken before the Soviet Union signed the convention. Those pictures as I have already clarified were from Mus, taken by the Russians and they are not copyrighted neither can they be copyrightable. As it is obvious, even if the pictures could be under the convention they dates at least of 85 years. The source has already been provided in this very same forum.. Fad (ix) 17:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Cat, I sense that you are finding reasons to cause trouble with these photos. Tell you what, if you want to prove that you are acting on good faith go onto the internet and find us a picture from an Armenian Massacre website that you are satisfied with. Because if you don't, you can claim anything is unverifiable. And if we take that line, every photo on wiki would have to be deleted. John Smith's 19:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
What changes are necessary to this article to make it "neutral"?
Thanks, -Sahak
I have just reread the article in its entirety. I don't see how anyone can legitimatly claim that the article is POV or non-nuetral. In fact I think it more then covers the essential claims and elements of Turkish denial of the Genocide. In a longer article (perhaps in the article being proposed specifically concerning Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - I would expect to see more concerning the evolution of the Turkish position from outright denial that it ever happened to the more current position that while Armenains may have died/suffered so did Turks - etc. Additionally I would expect to see more coverage of the major proponents of the official Turkish "position" and major incidents - such as the Heath Lowery affair - as well as other specifics - such as Turkish funding of Turkish Studies overseas and the role of those recieving these funds in promoting Genocide denial (and the pre-conditions Turkey attaches to their financial aid) etc warrent coverage. The role of the Turkish Government in stifling internal debate and access to information should also be presented - such things as laws forbidding affirmation of the Genocide and attempts on the part of the Turkish judiciary to enforce such as well as basic information concerning how the Turkish public educational system enforces teaching of its specific view denying that a genocide even occured and outright blaming the victims of such (Armenians) for inciting the violence. As for the current article itself - while it contains much accurate and useful information - it lacks a clear flow for the presentation and it is difficult to really understand the relevance and impact of the information presented. I think one area that is clearly lacking in the article is a presentation of the sources of the evidence for the Genocide - the corraborated eywitness accounts and the role of foreign government and missionaries stationed in the Ottoman EMpire in documenting the Genocide. I also feel that the historical context of the Genocide - some of the "why" questions has not been sufficietnly addressed. Likewise the major actors and the variety of means of killing are not clearly presented IMO. In general I find the presentation of the article to be sloppy and somewhat unproffesional and in need of much improvement. However I am reluctant to take on this task without some kind of agreed mandate to do such. I would not be satisfied making only minor changes - bandages on a flawed product. I think a total re-write and reorganization is in order. I disagree with much of the current article's emphasis. The Pamuk incident for instance fails to convey the important underlying issues surounding his indictal and the pop culture section regarding System of a Down is so down in the noise in terms of relvancy and importance I can't see it being included when there is far more relavent information missing. I think a timeline is vital for this as well - with major events and proclimations clearly highlighted - such as passing of the abandoned property act. etc Anyway this is my take on the article. --
THOTH
22:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe the neutrality dispute is over the number of deaths somewhere. I'm not too sure but since there's constant revert wars over this, I'm inclined to keep the POV tag.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire!
00:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This article lacks photgraphs. More need to be added. Armin T. Wegner's as well as John Elder's photographs are a good source, not sure if they are PD or not. http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_elder.html -- Eupator 00:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The exclusion of this website has been discussed on this very same talk page in the past. The author is registered under a proxy and was a user of Wikipedia who uses quotes that do not exist(and I have already provided various such examples here when discussing with him), he slanders scholars personally in his website and the site contains racistic remarks as it has already been shown there. If it is permitted to have the same quality webpages in other Wikipedia articles, I will add this link back. There are already other racistic sites like armenianreality.com, which would have been removed right away if it was inserted in any other Wikipedia article. Fad (ix) 17:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
08:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Believed by who? - FrancisTyers 21:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, the inclusion of "worried about their fate" troubles me, it sounds as if the article is trying to justify the revolt. - FrancisTyers 21:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, then might I suggest:
In early 1916, in the city of Ourfa (modern Şanlıurfa) the local Armenian population revolted against the Ottoman government and took control of the old city. Writing in his memoirs, the Austrian Military Plenipotentiary to Turkey during World War I characterised the revolt as "... an act of desperation" by Armenians who, "... recognized that [a] general butchery had begun in the environs of Van and that they would be the next [victims]". The German consul in Aleppo wrote about the revolt in similar terms. insert Turkish POV here.
Again, just a suggestion, feel free to ignore it, change it, write it backwards, forwards, sideways and with BiCaPs or funny şîgŋß :) - FrancisTyers 10:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel it important that we recognize that by putting so strong a warning on a page, we're essentially saying that the information may not be reliable. The information remaining on thi page after such protracted discussions and edits is certainly not biased, especially in light of the supporting documents presented.
Yes, I'm half Armenian. My paternal grandparents were orphaned by the attempted Genocide. My grandparents were 7 or 8 years old when this happened, and most certainly were old enough to remember their parents being murdered.
To dismiss this incredible tragedy, or even cast any question upon its occurance, is to permit it, to encourage it to happen again. It has been reputed that Hitler used the very same logic to assure his close associates that the world would not care, that when challenged, he cited that the world hadn't stopped the Turks from killing Armenians, and neither would they stop him from exterminating the Jews. He very nearly got away with it, just as the Turks have managed to get away with their genocide attempt. It truly is the bane of mankind that we forget. In most cases, history is written by the victors, which certainly explains why even more substantial proof does not exist. But I can assure you, and sign affidavit, that my grandparents existed, that their parents were murdered by the forces behind the Armenian Genocide of 1915, and that this is all very real, no matter how much the Turkish government may attempt to sweep it under the carpet. The ONLY difference between this and the Trail of Tears is that the U.S. government isn't denying that they did it.
It is my opinion that, in consideration of ample evidence that a genocide attempt DID occur, it would be socially irresponsible to even hint at that the Armenian Genocide is a myth or was justified by the excuses presented. To promote such misinformation is certainly far more offensive than the unlikely possibility that the Turks may have had mitigating factors to justify their killings.
Deniers of the Holocaust and deniers of the Armenian Genocide - why should they be treated any differently?
Poland will not let Iran "research" Holocaust
Fri Feb 17, 2006
WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland's Foreign Minister Stefan Meller on Friday ruled out allowing any Iranian researchers to examine the scale of the Holocaust committed by the German Nazis on Polish soil during World War Two.
Meller's remarks came after repeated denials of the Jewish Holocaust by Iranian officials and their suggestions that more research is needed to establish the truth about what happened to European Jews.
"Under no circumstances we should allow something like that to take place in Poland," Meller told Polish news agency PAP. "It goes beyond all imaginable norms to question, even discuss or negotiate the issue."
Polish daily Rzeczpospolita reported on Friday that Iran wants to send researchers to Poland to examine the scale of the Nazi crimes during the war.
Some 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust, with an estimated 1.1 million killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz- Birkenau, a death camp set up in German-occupied Poland.
Last week Iran's ambassador to Lisbon, who in the past served as a diplomat in Poland, said in an interview on Portuguese radio that according to his calculations based on a visit to the camp, now a museum, it would have taken the Nazis 15 years to burn the corpses of 6 million people.
-- THOTH 06:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
[offensive, unconstructive, personal attacks and incivility deleted - FrancisTyers 21:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where the author was coming from, but that person does not represent the "typical" Armenian, in mindset or otherwise. We don't hate on a broad-scale basis, and we don't consider people to be worthy of death, etc. There are extremists in any classification of people. I am not apologetic about how much it bothers me that Turkey would continue to deny their country's actions, and that they refuse to make reparations is likewise highly upsetting. It's reasonable that we be bothered by this. They attempted to exterminate us, and don't even grant us the dignity of recognition. But the solution is not found in revenge on people who weren't even alive when it happened. Contrition and returning some homeland to us IS within Turkey's abilities, though.
Imagine, if you will, that your ancestors for the past several thousand years lived in a region rich in history and culture, with mountains, deserts and seas. Relative newcomers sweep down from elsewhere, camp alongside... and you embrace them, allow that there's room enough for all. But they soon begin to take over, and essentially occupy you and your people. Then one day, with no valid cause or justification, they try to wipe you off the face of the planet and take your lands from you. Can you imagine that? Are you German? Irish? Swedish, French, Portuguese? You can still visit your heritage. When you take a taxi back there, the drivers and people don't deny that you existed for thousands of years. They don't usurp your architecture and claim it for their own. I'm not sure you can imagine it.
I'm first generation here in the States. My father was 1st generation in France, and my grandparents were born in Armenia, taken out of there at less than 7 years of age, orphaned by this genocide attempt that the Turks (people AND government, for the most part) still say never happened. By rights, I should be able to return to Armenia, see the history, the culture, perhaps even elect to live there. But I cannot. They took my great grandparent's lives, and continue to take that heritage to this day. Nothing can be done about their lives, and it's too late for them to replace the lack of affection that my grandparents suffered in an orphanage, the scars and memories of their parents' murder. It's too late to change how that affected my own father, and how he passed it on to me. But it's NOT too late for them to atone for it, and the first step is admitting that it happened.
I posted before about this: I remain bothered that this is being flagged as "disputed". It implies that the entire Genocide may not have happened. You effectively join them in preventing even that first step. Moderate the article as is proper; make sure that it follows reasonable fact, but... Please... do the right thing. Take off that flag. JT 06:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Uhm, mind signing your post? And it's not rhetoric, and you don't address any of that. Are you Turkish, by chance? While I'm asking questions, do you believe that the suicide bombers represent the mindset of most muslims, too? JT 06:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Does exclaiming it make you any more right? Sorry, you just sidestepped and waffled your way aound the point. There are some few extremists, muslim, Armenian, whatever... but to even think of judging a whole nation of people on that basis is highly irrational, and EXACTLY what you just did when you said Armenian is very specific so you can't reallycompare the two". You just tried to justify labeling a whole nationality based on the actions of a few. Tell me something: If it didn't happen, where did those million people go to? How did my great-grandparents become orphans? And, to be blunt, where do you get off trying to sweep it all under the carpet, anyway? Please tell me you're not a moderator for this subject.
I dont't need a Forum, Francis. And you're right, Wikipedia is NOT a message board. It's SUPPOSED to be based on facts and information. So, with so much of the world recognizing the genocide as historical fact, why is it being allowed to turn into a political boxing ring? Why is there any Flag on this article, if it's being pursued academically? I'm not trying to jump your case personally, I'm pointing out that the few "Typical Armenian Mindset" people who would, for whatever reason, like to sweep the genocide under the carpet, are being allowed to rewrite history. History has already been rewritten by the victors enough, and for too long. I don't find it ethical that Wikipedia cast any sort of questionable haze onto the fact that it happened. Feel free to write me privately. JT 14:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Like I already said, this picture does not represent victims of the genocide, I questioned its uses and what it truly represent. In my belief it is an Ottoman army contingent who after fighting have removed the dress of a Russian white battalion defeat to than dessring with their victims uniform and shutting a picture of them. It could have been Russian Armenian battalion fighting for their Tsar or etc., but I doubt this picture represent genocide victims. Fad (ix) 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I know, there was discussion about the subject in the past, but it's exhausting to try to wade through it all. When I clicked on the link to the original, I found that: 1) The image has been flipped horizontally, and lightened (which gives it a less clear appearance and less grim "feel.") I suggest reverting to the source image, cropping to remove the original photo's text, if necessary. I realize it may have been flipped horizontally for appearance's sake but the image is less powerful as presented. I can do this, if requested, but it's not my intention to get into an editing war, so I'm putting it up here to discuss first.
2) Why is there still a "disputed" flag on the article? To the general public, this suggests that the fact of the genocide itself is in dispute.
Thank you. JT 02:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you start signing your posts? It should have the REALITY of the original picture, not be literally whitewashed so that it doesn't show the harshness of what happened (and continues to happen when people are made to starve to death. JT 02:28, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Its tragic that this is occuring in a so called open source project!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.78.111.190 ( talk • contribs) 26 Feb 2006.
Well, seems like the censorship boys are back! The fact of the matter is that both of you are the real revisionists here, anything that doesnt suit your agenda, you eliminate and the proof of this is in the history of this topic. Oh and THOTH, im a bit dissappointed by you, cant you come up with something better than the lame "character assassination" accusation? LOL. Oh and give us a valid argument for removing TAT in the opposing section instead of providing your trademark silly and obscure comments. After all you you dont seem to mind poorly constructed sites like "armenian reality"! Its clear to me that TAT's comprehensive analysis is not at all in your interest!
FADIX you are at it again, you accuse the TAT guy of this and that, but dont mention any concrete examples of outright racism and fabrications because I dont know about you but those are serious allegations you are making! If you want to get the message through, give concrete examples not just vague accustations that you seem to be so accustomed to making!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
It's just pointless anonymous accusation. I'd recommend to ignore it. -- tasc 22:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
and since his integrity is being questioned, his views cannot be taken seriously—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
FADIX, once again you fabricate your way through, your claims that Akçam was an angel reflects a systematic pattern of deception from your behalf. Do you realize the damage you do by trying to distort facts? Get real, this guy is a convicted terrorist, the reason why he was not arrested when he went back to Turkey was because his warrant expired. I think the fact he was not arrested reflects positively on the rule of law in Turkey! 83.76.136.222 07:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Stop using foul language you naughty boy. Now I havent event visited the sites you are referring to, its probably a treasure chest of baseless allegations. Your arguments tend to be extremely hollow, just an endless stream of hot air with nothing really tangible. Sad, really! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.186.224.61 ( talk • contribs) 27 Feb 2006
It is just like Turkish deniers to attack the person and not the (true) message - look at Pamuk for instance - he is a "traitor" etc. Anyway - Akcam is fully accepted as a scholar and a scholar of the Armenian Genocide at that. Furthmore the fact that he is on the leading edge of Turkish scholars who are approaching the Genocide and the history of the period from a perspective of historical truth and not repeating CUP and current Turkish Government racist propoganda is certainly something to be noted. Additionally the analysis Akcam provides is right on the money and is most relevant and illustrative of not only the dynamics of the Genocide - but as much or even more so concerning the dynamics of Turkish denial. He is a serious scholar whose views deserve the utmost consideration - not character assasination. These bogus charges against him are a joke - and are typical of the culture of denial and of the problems Turkey has had with dissent. I could not see the views of any current American or European scholar being dismissed strictly because he had been charged or even convicted of civil disobedience at some point in his past during his youth...come now...this is incredibly weak - as are - of course - all of the Turkish arguments in denial of the Genocide. Isn't it time to both face up to the past...and to get back on topic? (of course this type of character assasination is about the only trick left in the Turkish denialist book at this point) -- THOTH 12:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I see you've only edited this particular artical. Seems, like you're pushing POV here. And you're not taking part in the discussion. -- tasc 21:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
From a partial point of view, it's just funny that Armenians spent this much money, time and effort in propagating unfounded claims. (No partial and respected historian classify these events as genocide). Zevaco —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.189.161.150 ( talk • contribs)
The current lead sentance reads: "The Armenian Genocide was the claim that deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I."
Why the past-tense? Is it no longer a claim? I'm guessing this is a POV insert to try and soften the lead. Pugget ( talk) 09:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Whatever the status of this opening sentence as fact or claim, present tense or past tense, it remains bad and ungrammatical English as it lacks a main verb. It could be improved by adding the words "took place" after "Ottoman Empire". An alternative, but obviously more contentious, improvement to the grammar of the sentence would be to remove the words "was the claim that" and replace them with the words "refers to the". But I can't see how to do this, as I can't find an edit button for the opening paragraph of this article.
Solaricon (
talk)
10:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
In the current lead there is a claim: “with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one a half million”, I have tried to change this supported by sources to “three hundred thousand to one a half million”, which also the same presented in section “Armenian population, deaths, survivors, 1914 to 1918”. My change was on several times reverted. If one desires to make any corrections to this article full of flaws and bias statements an edit war seems inevitable. Hittit ( talk) 20:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
It is a still disputed event of history and there is no consensus by hitorians, though there is one by Ottoman history experts but of course you wouldn't accept that. These are claims and the article should reflect that. Wiki shouldn't take a side but show it as the way it is.
The number of deaths is not 1.5 million for Western sources. The article that MarshallBagramyan references as a "Western Source" says "Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey." Though the source is from BBC the claim is made by Armenia rather than "Western Sources." What the Western sources agree on is maximum of 1.5 million Armenian living in Ottoman Empire prior to WWI. It's only Armenian sources that equates this number of deaths to 1.5 million.
There are many other poorly done recent edits in this article by MarshallBagramyan. A detailed revision of these edits is needed. TheDarkLordSeth ( talk) 05:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Bernard Lewis - Professor Emeritus of Islamic History and Middle Eastern Studies, Princeton University, MA in Middle Eastern History and PhD in Islamic Studies, University of London.
Justin McCarthy - Professor of History and Demographer, Louisville University. Ph.D. in history, University of California, Los Angeles.
Andrew Mango - Researcher, author and historian, University of London. PhD in Persian Literature, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS).
Heath W. Lowry - Mustafa Kemal Ataturk Professor of Ottoman and Modern Turkish Studies, Princeton University.
Edward J. Erickson - Researcher, Birmingham University, retired Lieutenant-Colonel, PhD in Ottoman Military History, The Leeds University.
Gwynne Dyer - Historian, military analyst and journalist, Ph.D. in Ottoman military history, The King’s College London.
Arend Jan Boekestijn - Lecturer in history of international relations, History Department at Utrecht University, Netherlands.
Jeremy Salt - Ph.D., Middle Eastern History, Melbourne University, 1980. Middle Eastern Studies.
Michael M. Gunter - Professor of political science, Tennessee Technical University, PhD in International Relations, The Kent State University.
Eberhard Jäckel - Professor Emeritus of modern world history, Stuttgart University.
Guenter Lewy - Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Massachusetts-Amherst.
Stanford Shaw - Professor Emeritus of History, UCLA.
Norman Stone - Former professor of Modern History at Oxford and lecturer at Cambridge, adviser to Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.
Hew Strachan - Chichele Professor of the History of War, University of Oxford.
Brian G. Williams - Associate Professor of Islamic History at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth, PhD in Middle Eastern and Islamic Central Asian History. University of Wisconsin, Madison.
Gilles Veinstein - Professor, Turkish and Ottoman History, Collège de France.
Robert F. Zeidner - Ph.D. in Ottoman Military history. Universiy of Utah, Middle East Center.
The fact that a genocide occurred is established beyond any reasonable point of debate. Whether or not Turkish historians (or you) accept it is neither here nor there; that is a 'claim' that it did not happen. A false claim, in the face of overwhelming evidence. The exact number of deaths may - may - be open to discussion, But the fact that a genocide occurred is not. CheesyBiscuit ( talk) 14:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) For information, this argument has expanded to here —Preceding unsigned comment added by CheesyBiscuit ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.