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![]() | On 10 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Armatoloi to Armatoles. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I think this article should be moved to Armatole. We should use the English names for articles ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)) and it is more in line with Klepht (and not Kleftes). What does everyone else think? Latinus 18:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Note to later editors: This article has a somewhat complicated page history. There were originally two separate articles, at Armatoles and at Armatoloi. The first was written mainly by User:Dragases ( [1]), the second mainly by User:Deucalionite ( [2]), both starting from January 2006. After some rather chaotic merging and cut-and-paste moving in June 2006, the histories of both articles were merged and the whole thing moved to Armatoloi. The current text as of 25 June ( [3]) is basically that from the old Armatoles page of User:Dragases. The last version of the original Armatoloi page is here: [4]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
IMO, this version is more complete. I had no idea that it was you, User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, that changed it to that grotesque form under "Armatoles". I'm quite new to WP. — Sshadow 13:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I kept the title "Armatoles" when I wrote the article because I encountered it repeatedly in most of the English-language sources on the subject, and figured it'd be more acceptable to the WP community. In hindsight, I should have created the article under the current popular Greek form... Anyway, good work, Fut.Perf.. Dragases 10:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I've never edited anything on Wikipedia before: I have altered the article to reflect the fact that Russia had no involvement as an instigator in the Greek 1821 revolution. Despite its earlier attempts to foment revolution against the Ottomans, at 1821 Russia was ruled by czar Alexander I who, following his experience with the French revolution and Napoleon, was deeply suspicious of all attempts to upset the existing European order. In fact it was not until his death that Russia actively involved itself in Greek affairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.52.24.125 ( talk) 21:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
There's a short paragraph at the end of the article mentioning "Albanian armatoloi" and describes it as a private militia of Christian Albanians. This militia is mentioned as having been granted privileges by the Sultan in 1861, even though the next phrase mentioned that it had already been abolished by Ahmed III in 1721 (the source says that it continued the practice illegally for another 100 years). So what's going on here?
Also, the other source mentioned (George Finlay's History of the Greek Revolution) doesn't mention a separate group of Albanian armatoloi per se, but as a second group of Christians apart from the armatoloi who had the right to bear arms ("The armatoli were not the only Christians in the Ottoman empire who were authorised to bear arms. Several Albanian communities in Greece, though entirely composed of Christians, received this privilege from the sultan."). This paragraph could use some rephrasing, e.g. "armatoloi-like Christian militia". Athenianepirote 10:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 02:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Armatoloi → Armatoles – Widely used English name. Armatoloi and Armatolos, the Greek names, give me 288 results in Google Scholar [5], while the English Armatoles and Armatole give me 291 results [6]. As both versions are practically equally common, one would need other arguments to base the election of one version or another. I've just added information on the article about the Aromanian armatoles that existed, and I also get a big amount of papers in Google Scholar when searching Albanian armatoles [7], so it was not a Greek-only thing. Based on this, I believe the English names are more neutral and preferable. Super Ψ Dro 12:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
"Armatoloi" is more common among 21st century sources in Google Books (~2000 results)not true. I stop getting results at the 14th page [12]. And as you can see here [13], many are not in English. By the way, I only stop getting results for armatoles at the 16th page [14]. Super Ψ Dro 20:10, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
The real reason you want the article moved is because the current title is too Greek, isn't it?Yeah I guess. I said in my original comment that the armatoles were not a Greek-only thing. The real question is why do you appear to be displeased by this. Super Ψ Dro 00:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Βατο: I think that Botsaris, Tzavellas and Androutsos should not be listed as "Albanian". Instead, I would suggest "Albanian or Albanian-Greek". This way they were either Albanians or Albanians with a Greek identification. They were of Albanian origin and language, but how much they identified with an Albanian and a Greek identity is impossible to tell. I mean that was a period of fluid identities in the region, and they were primarily illiterate bandits seeking personal opportunities rather than patriotic ideas and national aspirations. Just calling them "Albanian" does not seem suitable to me, at least in the case of Xhavella and Androutsos. "Albanian or Albanian-Greek" looks better. If I am not mistaken, Xhavella even participated at a revolt in Epirus aiming at joining the area to Greece, and Albanian civilians were massacred meanwhile. Does that look much Albanian? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 01:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | On 10 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Armatoloi to Armatoles. The result of the discussion was moved. |
I think this article should be moved to Armatole. We should use the English names for articles ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)) and it is more in line with Klepht (and not Kleftes). What does everyone else think? Latinus 18:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Note to later editors: This article has a somewhat complicated page history. There were originally two separate articles, at Armatoles and at Armatoloi. The first was written mainly by User:Dragases ( [1]), the second mainly by User:Deucalionite ( [2]), both starting from January 2006. After some rather chaotic merging and cut-and-paste moving in June 2006, the histories of both articles were merged and the whole thing moved to Armatoloi. The current text as of 25 June ( [3]) is basically that from the old Armatoles page of User:Dragases. The last version of the original Armatoloi page is here: [4]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
IMO, this version is more complete. I had no idea that it was you, User:Future Perfect at Sunrise, that changed it to that grotesque form under "Armatoles". I'm quite new to WP. — Sshadow 13:33, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I kept the title "Armatoles" when I wrote the article because I encountered it repeatedly in most of the English-language sources on the subject, and figured it'd be more acceptable to the WP community. In hindsight, I should have created the article under the current popular Greek form... Anyway, good work, Fut.Perf.. Dragases 10:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I've never edited anything on Wikipedia before: I have altered the article to reflect the fact that Russia had no involvement as an instigator in the Greek 1821 revolution. Despite its earlier attempts to foment revolution against the Ottomans, at 1821 Russia was ruled by czar Alexander I who, following his experience with the French revolution and Napoleon, was deeply suspicious of all attempts to upset the existing European order. In fact it was not until his death that Russia actively involved itself in Greek affairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.52.24.125 ( talk) 21:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
There's a short paragraph at the end of the article mentioning "Albanian armatoloi" and describes it as a private militia of Christian Albanians. This militia is mentioned as having been granted privileges by the Sultan in 1861, even though the next phrase mentioned that it had already been abolished by Ahmed III in 1721 (the source says that it continued the practice illegally for another 100 years). So what's going on here?
Also, the other source mentioned (George Finlay's History of the Greek Revolution) doesn't mention a separate group of Albanian armatoloi per se, but as a second group of Christians apart from the armatoloi who had the right to bear arms ("The armatoli were not the only Christians in the Ottoman empire who were authorised to bear arms. Several Albanian communities in Greece, though entirely composed of Christians, received this privilege from the sultan."). This paragraph could use some rephrasing, e.g. "armatoloi-like Christian militia". Athenianepirote 10:03, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 02:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Armatoloi → Armatoles – Widely used English name. Armatoloi and Armatolos, the Greek names, give me 288 results in Google Scholar [5], while the English Armatoles and Armatole give me 291 results [6]. As both versions are practically equally common, one would need other arguments to base the election of one version or another. I've just added information on the article about the Aromanian armatoles that existed, and I also get a big amount of papers in Google Scholar when searching Albanian armatoles [7], so it was not a Greek-only thing. Based on this, I believe the English names are more neutral and preferable. Super Ψ Dro 12:51, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
"Armatoloi" is more common among 21st century sources in Google Books (~2000 results)not true. I stop getting results at the 14th page [12]. And as you can see here [13], many are not in English. By the way, I only stop getting results for armatoles at the 16th page [14]. Super Ψ Dro 20:10, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
The real reason you want the article moved is because the current title is too Greek, isn't it?Yeah I guess. I said in my original comment that the armatoles were not a Greek-only thing. The real question is why do you appear to be displeased by this. Super Ψ Dro 00:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Βατο: I think that Botsaris, Tzavellas and Androutsos should not be listed as "Albanian". Instead, I would suggest "Albanian or Albanian-Greek". This way they were either Albanians or Albanians with a Greek identification. They were of Albanian origin and language, but how much they identified with an Albanian and a Greek identity is impossible to tell. I mean that was a period of fluid identities in the region, and they were primarily illiterate bandits seeking personal opportunities rather than patriotic ideas and national aspirations. Just calling them "Albanian" does not seem suitable to me, at least in the case of Xhavella and Androutsos. "Albanian or Albanian-Greek" looks better. If I am not mistaken, Xhavella even participated at a revolt in Epirus aiming at joining the area to Greece, and Albanian civilians were massacred meanwhile. Does that look much Albanian? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 01:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)