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I propose that the Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in England and Wales and the Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in Northern Ireland pages are merged into one article. Currently the AONB England and Wales page is a near duplicate of the AONB page and the AONB Northern Ireland page is just a list. The pages could be more effectively managed if they are combined into one but split into sections for Introduction, England & Wales and Northern Ireland. This would have the benefit of reducing duplication of effort in maintaing two near-mirror copies of the same page and a separate list page, and also making the article more accessible to readers. I noticed that a previous merge attempt in 2005 was reverted a few months later without discussion, so I would like to hear what other people have to say about this proposal before taking action. Thanks. Road Wizard 20:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
___
Seems a good idea to me but I'm just a newby encylopaedist.
Society Section: Environment: Zones of contention: "Fifty years after the first area of outstanding natural beauty was created, is it time for a rethink as questions arise over maintenance, planning protection and local people being priced out?" The Guardian ( London ); May 3, 2006 ; James Meikle; p. 9
Vernon White 16:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Full article can be found here. I don't think it's sufficiently notable to be included in this article (the Guardian piece is more of a comment article) but it might be a starting point (with additional sources) for mentioning specific threats to the AONBs mentioned in their appropriate articles, ie. Gower, Sussex Downs, Dedham Vale, Kend Downs and Dorset. -- Blisco 17:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the appendage "AONB" from all the names in the list of AONBs, as it seemed somewhat redundant -- I hope no one objects. A large number of these were either redirects or piped links, so "North Pennines AONB" redirected to North Pennines and "Gower AONB" was piped to Gower Peninsula. In addition, there was already an article about Dedham Vale which appeared when I amended the redlink Dedham Vale AONB.
The remaining articles with redundant "AONB" in their titles probably ought to be moved if there is no need to disambiguate -- these being Arnside and Silverdale AONB (for which there is a redirect in place from Arnside and Silverdale), Surrey Hills AONB, Lecale Coast AONB and Ring of Gullion AONB.
I left piped links to "... AONB" in place in cases where the AONB is not coterminous with the area after which it is named (or in cases where I wasn't sure), even if the link is currently a redirect -- Anglesey being the best example -- to avoid problems if an article on the AONB is subsequently created.
Hope that all makes some kind of sense! -- Blisco 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit which added a list of AONBs to the body of the article. This was a good faith edit but this information is at the end of the article in the navboxes. However I do think that the boxes should be expanded by default - anyone know how to do this? -- NHSavage ( talk) 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I do not understand why the title is being changed in so many articles. Natural England, the official body for the AONB designation uses capital letters. See AONB page at Natural England website. -- TimTay ( talk) 20:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was to not move the article. While its clear the original legislation did not capitalize the term, its also clear the ongoing, and common usage adopted capitalization. In this case, verifiability trumps any claims of "truth". Rockpocke t 18:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - [ MOSCAPS] might be helpful: Titles such as president, king, or emperor start with a capital letter when used as a title (followed by a name): "President Nixon", not "president Nixon". When used generically, they should be in lower case: "De Gaulle was the French president." ... Similarly, "Louis XVI was the French king" but "Louis XVI was King of France", King of France being a title in that context. Therefore, "Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty is in England", but "Shropshire Hills is designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty". Mooretwin ( talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - [ MOSCAPS again]: When showing the source of an acronym, initialism, or syllabic abbreviation, emphasizing the letters that make up the acronym is undesirable: Incorrect: FOREX (FOReign EXchange), Incorrect: FOREX (foreign exchange), Correct: FOREX (foreign exchange) Therefore, Incorrect: AONB (Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty), Correct: AONB (area of outstanding natural beauty). Mooretwin ( talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Copied from Talk:Site of Special Scientific Interest:
Comment Do we have a hint of where this problem originates? Mooretwin said that "no legislation ever uses capitals". I wasn't aware of this, but as far as I can find out it does seem to be the case: for example, this source says "British laws don’t use initial capitals for defined terms". If it is true (for whatever reason), it would explain why SSSI, AONB and the rest do seem to be written with lower case initials in legislation.
However, if legal writing uses a particular style, it does not make that style "correct" and all contrary usage "incorrect" – for example, legal writing generally avoids commas, but those are by no means incorrect in other writing. Mooretwin, I think you have misunderstood the significance of the lack of caps in the legislation: all you are doing is trying to impose a particular legal idiosyncracy onto general writing, where it does not belong. Actual usage in general writing is the guide for use here, and that usage is very clearly almost always with cap initials. (That would apply even if the phrase originated in the legislation, which as I've pointed out above, it does not.) It's surely clear enough by now that the whole proposal is an unfruitful one, for SSSIs as for the other examples mentioned. I suggest you retire gracefully at this point. Richard New Forest ( talk) 14:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Note to closing editor: There appears to be a violation of WP:CANVASS on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Capitals, since the section was started by Mooretwin after the various RMs were proposed by him, and the message is phrased using non-neutral wording and phrasing. I ask Mooretwin to either remove the message or edit it to make it neutral (such as the various messages are that I posted to a variety of projects which the articles would be relevant to by virtue of dealing with UK geographical topics, and/or which have project templates on the corresponding talk pages.) DDStretch (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
So it's more than 72 hours since the move was requested (just before 01:00GMT on 12/12) and we have had a lot of comment. The guidance is to wait a "few days" for consensus. Do we now have consensus that the move should not be allowed? --
TimTay (
talk)
08:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
i expected to see a listing of the different areas. where is it? 78.146.240.209 ( talk) 14:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 ( talk) 16:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty →
Area of outstanding natural beauty – The claims that this is an official proper name are totally bogus. All the related official laws and documents use lower case; of course a specific area "X Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" can make the words part of a name, but the official designation is clearly lower case in the law that defines it and in lots of other sources. The 2008 RM seems to have been closed on the basis the many sources capitalize it, without regard for WP's
MOS:CAPS, which says we only capitalize for proper names, not for the variety of other reasons that others use.
Dicklyon (
talk)
17:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
See this law (Part IV, sections 90 and thereabouts, or search the full PDF). Dicklyon ( talk) 18:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've replaced the old map with a new one. The old map was not very clearly drawn, and is out of date as it showed the South Downs (now a National Park) as an AONB. However, the new map does not show Northern Ireland, and a request to the Graphics Lab for an NI-specific map (or expanding the new England and Wales map) has not so far produced results. I will try again. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 15:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed the PR puffery added by Handlens, but I've included a wikified version of the link to Landscape scale conservation that he/she wanted. 86.6.26.122 ( talk) 17:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
People can see pictures and post to facebook Manma emotion ( talk) 09:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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Given that the article deals with AONBs in England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's a shame that the map only covers the first two - might someone with the ability to do so, create a new version of the AONB map or, alternatively a second one for N Ireland alone. thanks Geopersona ( talk) 05:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
@GHMyrtle: My thanks to you for that - and indeed to RaviC - I'd been checking the graphics lab pages (though somehow missed that entry) rather than the AONBs page - a combined map would still be preferable I think though useful to have that other. The issue of the England & Wales one being considerably out of date remains a real issue for the article. cheers Geopersona ( talk) 12:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#AONBs are no more on AONBs being re-named National Landscape and whether it applies to NI, leading to a potential split if the article is re-named. Dank Jae 13:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
I've put together a table showing which National Landscapes have updated their websites and which are still AONBs. Wales hasn't updated at all, which I know @ DankJae is aware of, but England is mostly there – the Chilterns and North Norfolk are the only ones not to use NL branding at all, with the former still being an AONB and the latter using distinct 'protected landscape' branding.
I envisage keeping this updated as the rebrand continues. A.D.Hope ( talk) 21:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Would be a good topic to address. As a tourist I’d like to know about the full country 185.147.89.117 ( talk) 08:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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I propose that the Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in England and Wales and the Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty in Northern Ireland pages are merged into one article. Currently the AONB England and Wales page is a near duplicate of the AONB page and the AONB Northern Ireland page is just a list. The pages could be more effectively managed if they are combined into one but split into sections for Introduction, England & Wales and Northern Ireland. This would have the benefit of reducing duplication of effort in maintaing two near-mirror copies of the same page and a separate list page, and also making the article more accessible to readers. I noticed that a previous merge attempt in 2005 was reverted a few months later without discussion, so I would like to hear what other people have to say about this proposal before taking action. Thanks. Road Wizard 20:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
___
Seems a good idea to me but I'm just a newby encylopaedist.
Society Section: Environment: Zones of contention: "Fifty years after the first area of outstanding natural beauty was created, is it time for a rethink as questions arise over maintenance, planning protection and local people being priced out?" The Guardian ( London ); May 3, 2006 ; James Meikle; p. 9
Vernon White 16:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Full article can be found here. I don't think it's sufficiently notable to be included in this article (the Guardian piece is more of a comment article) but it might be a starting point (with additional sources) for mentioning specific threats to the AONBs mentioned in their appropriate articles, ie. Gower, Sussex Downs, Dedham Vale, Kend Downs and Dorset. -- Blisco 17:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the appendage "AONB" from all the names in the list of AONBs, as it seemed somewhat redundant -- I hope no one objects. A large number of these were either redirects or piped links, so "North Pennines AONB" redirected to North Pennines and "Gower AONB" was piped to Gower Peninsula. In addition, there was already an article about Dedham Vale which appeared when I amended the redlink Dedham Vale AONB.
The remaining articles with redundant "AONB" in their titles probably ought to be moved if there is no need to disambiguate -- these being Arnside and Silverdale AONB (for which there is a redirect in place from Arnside and Silverdale), Surrey Hills AONB, Lecale Coast AONB and Ring of Gullion AONB.
I left piped links to "... AONB" in place in cases where the AONB is not coterminous with the area after which it is named (or in cases where I wasn't sure), even if the link is currently a redirect -- Anglesey being the best example -- to avoid problems if an article on the AONB is subsequently created.
Hope that all makes some kind of sense! -- Blisco 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit which added a list of AONBs to the body of the article. This was a good faith edit but this information is at the end of the article in the navboxes. However I do think that the boxes should be expanded by default - anyone know how to do this? -- NHSavage ( talk) 17:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I do not understand why the title is being changed in so many articles. Natural England, the official body for the AONB designation uses capital letters. See AONB page at Natural England website. -- TimTay ( talk) 20:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was to not move the article. While its clear the original legislation did not capitalize the term, its also clear the ongoing, and common usage adopted capitalization. In this case, verifiability trumps any claims of "truth". Rockpocke t 18:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - [ MOSCAPS] might be helpful: Titles such as president, king, or emperor start with a capital letter when used as a title (followed by a name): "President Nixon", not "president Nixon". When used generically, they should be in lower case: "De Gaulle was the French president." ... Similarly, "Louis XVI was the French king" but "Louis XVI was King of France", King of France being a title in that context. Therefore, "Shropshire Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty is in England", but "Shropshire Hills is designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty". Mooretwin ( talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Comment - [ MOSCAPS again]: When showing the source of an acronym, initialism, or syllabic abbreviation, emphasizing the letters that make up the acronym is undesirable: Incorrect: FOREX (FOReign EXchange), Incorrect: FOREX (foreign exchange), Correct: FOREX (foreign exchange) Therefore, Incorrect: AONB (Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty), Correct: AONB (area of outstanding natural beauty). Mooretwin ( talk) 12:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Copied from Talk:Site of Special Scientific Interest:
Comment Do we have a hint of where this problem originates? Mooretwin said that "no legislation ever uses capitals". I wasn't aware of this, but as far as I can find out it does seem to be the case: for example, this source says "British laws don’t use initial capitals for defined terms". If it is true (for whatever reason), it would explain why SSSI, AONB and the rest do seem to be written with lower case initials in legislation.
However, if legal writing uses a particular style, it does not make that style "correct" and all contrary usage "incorrect" – for example, legal writing generally avoids commas, but those are by no means incorrect in other writing. Mooretwin, I think you have misunderstood the significance of the lack of caps in the legislation: all you are doing is trying to impose a particular legal idiosyncracy onto general writing, where it does not belong. Actual usage in general writing is the guide for use here, and that usage is very clearly almost always with cap initials. (That would apply even if the phrase originated in the legislation, which as I've pointed out above, it does not.) It's surely clear enough by now that the whole proposal is an unfruitful one, for SSSIs as for the other examples mentioned. I suggest you retire gracefully at this point. Richard New Forest ( talk) 14:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Note to closing editor: There appears to be a violation of WP:CANVASS on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Capitals, since the section was started by Mooretwin after the various RMs were proposed by him, and the message is phrased using non-neutral wording and phrasing. I ask Mooretwin to either remove the message or edit it to make it neutral (such as the various messages are that I posted to a variety of projects which the articles would be relevant to by virtue of dealing with UK geographical topics, and/or which have project templates on the corresponding talk pages.) DDStretch (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
So it's more than 72 hours since the move was requested (just before 01:00GMT on 12/12) and we have had a lot of comment. The guidance is to wait a "few days" for consensus. Do we now have consensus that the move should not be allowed? --
TimTay (
talk)
08:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
i expected to see a listing of the different areas. where is it? 78.146.240.209 ( talk) 14:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 ( talk) 16:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty →
Area of outstanding natural beauty – The claims that this is an official proper name are totally bogus. All the related official laws and documents use lower case; of course a specific area "X Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" can make the words part of a name, but the official designation is clearly lower case in the law that defines it and in lots of other sources. The 2008 RM seems to have been closed on the basis the many sources capitalize it, without regard for WP's
MOS:CAPS, which says we only capitalize for proper names, not for the variety of other reasons that others use.
Dicklyon (
talk)
17:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
See this law (Part IV, sections 90 and thereabouts, or search the full PDF). Dicklyon ( talk) 18:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I've replaced the old map with a new one. The old map was not very clearly drawn, and is out of date as it showed the South Downs (now a National Park) as an AONB. However, the new map does not show Northern Ireland, and a request to the Graphics Lab for an NI-specific map (or expanding the new England and Wales map) has not so far produced results. I will try again. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 15:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I removed the PR puffery added by Handlens, but I've included a wikified version of the link to Landscape scale conservation that he/she wanted. 86.6.26.122 ( talk) 17:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
People can see pictures and post to facebook Manma emotion ( talk) 09:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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Given that the article deals with AONBs in England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's a shame that the map only covers the first two - might someone with the ability to do so, create a new version of the AONB map or, alternatively a second one for N Ireland alone. thanks Geopersona ( talk) 05:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
@GHMyrtle: My thanks to you for that - and indeed to RaviC - I'd been checking the graphics lab pages (though somehow missed that entry) rather than the AONBs page - a combined map would still be preferable I think though useful to have that other. The issue of the England & Wales one being considerably out of date remains a real issue for the article. cheers Geopersona ( talk) 12:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 05:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#AONBs are no more on AONBs being re-named National Landscape and whether it applies to NI, leading to a potential split if the article is re-named. Dank Jae 13:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
I've put together a table showing which National Landscapes have updated their websites and which are still AONBs. Wales hasn't updated at all, which I know @ DankJae is aware of, but England is mostly there – the Chilterns and North Norfolk are the only ones not to use NL branding at all, with the former still being an AONB and the latter using distinct 'protected landscape' branding.
I envisage keeping this updated as the rebrand continues. A.D.Hope ( talk) 21:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Would be a good topic to address. As a tourist I’d like to know about the full country 185.147.89.117 ( talk) 08:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)