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This archive discusses the edit war that has been destroying the history of this article started by a user who was shamed at his arbitration for this and many other reasons.
User:Ghirlandajo, you are showing a bad example to the novice Wikipedia editors, particularly User:AndriyK. Now he should be completely lost about the wikipedia rules and may actually never grow to respect other people's works.
Now the discussion page is linked between Russian architecture and Architecture of Rus, but the articles themselves and their histories are separated. abakharev 10:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
User:AndriyK, in the event you would almost single-handily wrote an article of a similar quality and some alternatively talented user would suddenly move it to a strange location, I promise not to scold you for using cut-n-paste to return the article where it belongs. abakharev 12:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
User:Ilya K posted a POV sticker on the top of the article, but forgot to explain his grievances on the talk page. Unless he would explain them shortly, I intend to remove the sticker. abakharev 12:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
October 2005 (UTC)
Guys, the only part that is disputed here is the title and whether one signle section belongs to the article, not even the neutrality of the section. There are special templates for that. User:Ilya K, if still unconvinsed, may add these templates to an appropriate section but there is no justification to put a disputed tag over the entire article. I repeat that the matter is not that I view his objctions as without merit but that they are obviously narrower than the general disputed tag. Also, please check the recent entries at Talk:Kievan Rus' for a very similar dispute. -- Irpen 14:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
For that, you can use the templates that question neutrality of the title and/or the particular section. But you can leave the global POV for now. Wait for kind of responses you will get. -- Irpen 21:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Still, as a suggestion, please consider the following: Template:POV-title-section, Template:Disputed-section and Template:POV-title which are more sort of narrow. or maybe none. As an alternative, write an article about Ukrainian architecture, include there the architecture of Rus' and I promise you, no one will bark. Also, your efforts to write an article about Ch. principality are highly appreciated. You can be sure it will be listed up for a move vote, but in any case your writing is helping WP. I hope this won't be the last article you write. Feel free to retract the load of shit you unloaded at Maidan but feel free not to as well. Your language speaks about yourself as much as about the others. -- Irpen 21:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Since there is little chance to convince user:AndriyK in anything, I suggest we put the appropriateness of the title up for voting. If we see a consensus emerging that the title is adequate, we will dump his tag. If not, we will discuss what the better name would be. In the meanwhile, I suggest AndriyK offers his suggestions on how to name the article. I bet his was joking with "Rus'" in the name of the article that included Soviet Realism architecture. I doubt he will take up my proposal to write a Ukrainian architecture article and have the issue settled this way. He can still contribute to Ukrainian baroque written by his perceived enemies of Ukraine. But maybe he has other good ideas. Objections? -- Irpen 20:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
We already heard you, AndriyK. Reread above and answer the question, if you can. You are asked to offer a name. Reread... Also, while Ghirlandajo didn't authorize me to speak on his behalf, I can asure you that if you will write a Ukrainian architecture article and would start it from Kievan Rus' chapter and would just paste his text there, he would not object at all from what I can tell -- Irpen 23:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it not be sufficient to put one brief sentence in that section explaining the meaning of Rus’? If it can mention in passing Ukrainian and Belarusan heritage without distracting from the subject, that should satisfy any reasonable East Slav. — Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:26 Z
OK, I think that with modified title of the first section now we can remove the tag. If anyone's unhappy with it and insists on reinserting it, propose a different title at talk for discussion. Throwing the tag an not proposing anything is the road to nowhere. Titling the article as "Architecture of Rus'" is just a bad joke. -- Irpen 16:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In case it hasn't been clearly stated, very good work, G. — Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:00 Z
I propose the following solution:
(The section in its initial form is copied to the article Architecture of Kievan Rus). If you are not agree, feel free to revert, but propose another solution. Removing the POV template is not a solution.-- AndriyK 20:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Irpen did not propose any solution, so I reverted back. If you revert, please propose your way tpo solve the issue.--
AndriyK 08:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a problem, so I can't propose the solution. You are the only one here that sees a problem when there is none. As per such, the problem is most likely with someone's Russophobia rather than the article's neutrality. And there are how many editors above that said that the article is OK? -- Irpen 08:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I changed the introductory page in accordence with the title. The POV-section template is added to the first section. The churches in Kiev and Chernihiv has nothing to do with Russian architecture.-- AndriyK 19:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, AndriyK. I added "The first examples of monumental architecture in Russia (as well as in Belarus and Ukraine) were the great churches of Rus'...", and you marked the section POV with this explanation on my talk page: "It would be incorect to consider churches in Kiev and Chernihiv as "Russian" architecture." Here you write "The churches in Kiev and Chernihiv has nothing to do with Russian."
You're just plain wrong. The architecture of Kievan Rus’ is equally part of the traditions of Belarusian, Russian, and Ukrainian architecture. The ancient architecture in Ukraine had a great influence on the entire Russian tradition. This view is probably more neutral than that of most mainstream English-language architecture books, so you should stop wasting everybody's time now. — Michael Z. 2005-11-3 20:42 Z
That is unless the person who disputes it is the only Wikipedians who sees a problem and also is known for defying consensus and having the radically out-of-the mainstream views for the WP community. -- Irpen 16:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, again, it is not my or anyone's business to tell you what to do but if you wrote some articles contributing to Wikipedia of about 10% of the great content contributed by Ghirlandajo (both Michael and I did have many disagreements and arguments with him) rather than roam around his, mine or other people's articles with meaningless name "corrections", you would be perceived differently by the community. You find articles and either inflame everyone by name modifications and strange changes of the titles, or cut pieces out of them or throw ridiculous tags on good or, at least, very acceptable articles despite there is a huge shortage of attention to Russia and especially to Ukraine in WP. In fact, there is only a single Ukraine related WP:FA ( Hero of Ukraine written mostly my Zscout370 and SashaZlv, while you manage to include Sasha too in the enemies of your Maidan war).
You then come here and do the same. Then you come to Orange revolution which Michael and myself took great pains to write very carefully weighting and researching every word of it.
You started a Chernihiv Principality. Do something there. If you manage to make a great article out of it, you might even succeed in having others agree to have it under the strange name out of respect to the author. This is a huge disruption and a waste of time of everyone, so far, including yourself to begin with. I offered you several times to forgo the bad blood and start some meaningful discussions. I am sure, many others would be willing to do it as well. -- Irpen 21:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
With all respect to Russian architecture, why am I called "racist" as well as being abused in other words by Mr. Ghirlandajo, when trying to state the obvious? Ukrainian architecture isn't Russian. I feel that this abuse goes beyond any possible rules of Wikepedia. Russia should not claim some foreign architecture to be "Russian". It isn't true. Russians have not migrated from Kiev to Russia, they took some styles and designs from there, but this doesn't make Kiev's architecture Russian.
Michael, I see no problem with the article about Russian architecture referring to Kiev's architecture. Just like I don't see any problem with the article about the later styles of Ukrainian architecture referring to Italian architecture. There were famous Italian architects working in Kiev. But would you like me to start listing all of their works as "Ukrainian"? If the same person built something in Milano using the same style, would I suddenly list those buildings as "Ukrainian"? It simply doesn't make any sense. The British Architecture page doesn't list Rome's Coliseum as a masterpiece of British architecture because there are some Roman buildings in Britain. If it did, would you call a person "racist" for trying to correct it? -- Andrew Alexander 23:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
This view (Russians stole history, Rus' were us rather than them, etc.) represents such a narrow fringe segment of Ukrainian nationalistoc viewpoint that it isn't even worth commenting. Say something serious if you want any serious responces. -- Irpen 06:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I think lack of support of the view that Kievan Rus history doesn't belong to Russia, and only to Ukraine, among other Wikipedians and in the Western historiography speaks about your ideas itself. Note, we are not talking about Halych-Vohlynia principality period here but about Kievan period. See above. -- Irpen 17:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
So would you or wouldn't you delete this section from Ukrainian architecture? -- Irpen 18:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Andrew, I think a better analogy than British/Roman would be avoiding describing Greek and Etruscan architecture under Roman architecture, or leaving out Byzantine architecture from an article about Turkish architecture. No one is saying that the architecture of Rus’ belongs to Russia and not to Ukraine.
Let's change the wording so that it can't be accused of implying that. Perhaps the language simply has to be more politically neutral. Would it work if the first section referred only to Rus’ and not Russia? — Michael Z. 2005-11-12 23:47 Z
Far too many editors have been adding unacceptable insults to their edit summaries here (and elsewhere). If I hadn't already been active in the discussion here, I would have protected it by now. You should all be ashamed of yourselves and apologize for the unprofessional behaviour. — Michael Z. 2005-11-11 20:25 Z
And to this I would like to add that the only editing by AndriyK and Andrew Alexander of this article was removing pieces form it, the measure which is generally frown upon except in few cases. -- Irpen 20:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Michael, I am sorry and I am always for compromising when possible but I don't see a possiblity to accomodate Andrew's and Andriy's fervent wish to exclude Kievan Rus' architecture from the Russian architecture article. I am sure that this part can be used directly in a Ukrainian architecture article too which our prolific revert warriors won't write because so far they just deleted stuff or changed names (or at least that was over 90% of their activity). If they cannot be satisfied with the fact the architecture of Kiev Rus' is part of the Russian architecture (as well as of the Ukrainian one), it cannot be resolved to their satisfaction. And if they will keep to express their dissatisfaction by deleting the chapter from the article, this article will have to be protected forever until their getting permanently blocked. -- Irpen 22:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
You are not making your point any more convinsing by repeating it. -- Irpen 17:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I bet you hope the border will not be where it is now and an ugly, Polonized Ukrianian style will be replaced by a noble, pure Russian style. The brainwashing got so bad in Russia, that Russian tourists start asking in Kiev, "so when did Ukrainians manage to steal all of these old buildings from Russia?". -- Andrew Alexander 01:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Guys, I beg you, stop quarrelling, you started fine with presenting your points, but now..., this page happened on my watchlist and that is no pleasure to have it come up it with undue accusations from both sides, please, discuss more calmly and constructively, or if you truly have no hope in each other - go through some Wikipedia formal procedure. – Gnomz 007( ?) 05:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this page protection looks more and more like a way to stifle any modification due to reasonable objections to calling Kiev architecture "Russian". A primitive nationalistic point of view of Imperial Russia is implemented despite all the evidence to the contrary. Let's summarize the gist of the Russian nationalistic objections to not calling Kiev Russian. "Kiev is a common heritage of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, and therefore it cannot belong only to Ukraine." Therefore Russia has a right to claim every Kiev building as its own. This claim is absurd. The reason it's absurd is that by any reasonable historical standard, a country cannot lay a claim on something it has not created or has no current posession of. Romania or Spain cannot claim the ownership of all the Ancient Rome buildings. Arabs cannot claim ownership of Israeli relics. Turkey cannot claim ownership of Athens temples. Even the "common source" theory would not justify any such claims. Especially if the "common source" lies mostly in ancient Kiev's projection of its cultural and military power, but is not supported by the evidence of mass migration from Kiev to Russia.-- Andrew Alexander 04:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This page has been protected for a week. How does everyone feel about unprotection and are you any closer to consensus? I'd like to remind everyone that even after this is eventually unprotected, edit warring and incivility is not to start up again. Dmcdevit· t 08:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I apologize for taking so long to come up with a proposed revision. I'm working on it now, and should have something to post for review tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your patience, everyone. — Michael Z. 2005-11-29 22:13 Z
Waiting on the revision.-- Andrew Alexander 03:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Done. Again, sorry for taking so long. Since protection had been removed and there was no comment or objection to my observations above, I've entered it directly into the article. It's wide open again, but let's please discuss any potentially controversial changes here, or try to make revisions that will be acceptable to everyone. I've tried to revise the intro and first section without making a wholesale rewrite or losing its sense, but still present the information in a way that could be acceptable to all sides of the controversy. There were also some minor changes further down, and a lot of minor copy-edits. If I haven't quite succeeded, let me know how it can be improved.
Thanks for the patience. This article is an excellent start, but I hope we can get past this, because there is the potential to write a lot more about other aspects, such as vernacular architecture, cubism and futurism, and later modernism. — Michael Z. 2005-12-1 05:37 Z
I see, Michael, you were working hard to prove that there are books in English calling architecture of Kyiv "Russian". You might work even harder and you find that some English language authors are still not avare about the very existance of Ukraine and do not see any difference between the USSR and Russia. You may work even harder and find the people still beleaving that the Earth is flat. Then add this all bullshit to Wikipedia. This will exstremely improve the quality of the resource.
You may be very surprised, but there are other languages in the world. And there are even sources on Kyivan architecture in these languages. Sadly (for you and your friends) they do not consider Kyivan archotecture as Russian [2], [3]. You may ignore these sources, but please do not remove the POV template. The problem is still there, even if you and your friends do not see it.-- AndriyK 13:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing to prevent further edits to this article. There has been no substantive discussion her in over a week. I'm unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
If I might add a fresh opinion to this old debate, I think it's worth taking a step back from individual words in the article. This entire talk page is a giant monument to bias, and the innocent article is a victim to a grander cause that has nothing to do with architecture. Whether St Sophia is called Russian is of no relevance to an architect or an art student. This only matters to a handful of Ukrainian nationalists. Just take a look at the pro-Ukrainian crew contributions: how much are they contributing about architecture, and how much are they contributing about non-Russian Ukraine?
The entire discussion is revisionism, aiming to satisfy the latest extremist views. Just ask yourself this. If you went back to the year 1054, and asked St Sophia's architect "Is your cathedral Russian or Kievan?", what would his answer be? He'd look at you funny and scoff.
The troubled relationship between Russians and Ukrainians is irrelevant for things from 11th century Kiev. It should be a side note, something kept in a separate article that a more interested reader may decide to check out at his leisure. It does not deserve all the attention and scrutiny so readily given by the wiki community. There is a direct, undisputed line that leads from 12th century Kiev to 14th century Muscovy. Kievans moved en mass to Muscovy to escape the Mongol invasion; early Muscovite princes were direct descendants of the Kievan House of Rurik. It's preposterous to claim that Kievans were somehow separate, unrelated. However you attempt to re-spell it, the first legal codex of Kievan Rus was called the Ruskaya Pravda. If that had the word Russian in it, so may the churches its writers built.
(P.S. I just discovered the Russkaya Pravda talk page and I'm too tired to post there, but anyone with even cursory knowledge of the language actually used in the 'Eastern Slavic territory' at the time of its writing will know that it was common to spell the word "Russian" with one s, even in documents written in Muscovy hundreds of years later.) 24.164.154.130 06:14, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I request the editor who added the POV tag to list his objections to its current form as 1,2,3... -- Irpen 03:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The current edition looks fine except for the two paragraphs:
"Medieval Rus’ (988–1230) The great churches of Kievan Rus', built after the adoption of Christianity in 988, were the first examples of monumental architecture in the East Slavic lands, the territory of modern-day Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The architectural style of the Kievan state which quickly established itself was strongly influenced by the Byzantine. Early Eastern Orthodox churches were mainly made of wood with the simplest form of church becoming known as a cell church. Major cathedrals often featured scores of small domes, which led some art historians to take this as an indication of what the pagan Slavic temples should have looked like.
The earliest Kievan churches were built and decorated with frescoes and mosaics by Byzantine masters. A great example of an early church of Rus' was the thirteen-domed Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kiev (1037-54), but much of its exterior has been altered with time."
According to many sources, e.g. Columbia Encyclopedia, Kievan Rus' was a "common heritage", but Ukrainian and Russian ancestors lived as separate peoples in different, often warring princedoms. E.g., the article says, "In 1169, Kiev was sacked and pillaged by the armies of Andrei Bogolubsky of Suzdal". It appears from this and other reliable sources that Kiev was not "Russian". Directly listing Kiev churches in the article called "Russian Architecture" is mispalced. The first Russian example of medieval architecture is Saint Sophia Cathedral in Novgorod. Hence the "Medieval Rus" architecture period in Russia starts not in 988 as the article states, but in 1044.-- Andrew Alexander 04:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
We are no longer speaking eleventh-century English or French. Today Rus’ and Russia mean different things, regardless that in Russian a single adjective is used for both. — Michael Z. 2005-12-6 02:35 Z
Sources supporting point of view #1:
Point of view #2 is supported by the following and other publications, which do discuss architecture of Kievan Rus under the heading "Russian architecture"—some of them refer to it by the adjective Russian, others don't.
Is this a fair summary? — Michael Z.
Sometimes I wonder why I write all this if the opponents don't even read it. Will repeat, again, " Do not refer directly to Kiev city churches as examples of "Russian architecture". Refer to them as examples that influenced Russian architecture. Also correct "Medieval Rus’ (988–1230)" to "Medieval Russia (1044–1230)"."-- Andrew Alexander 15:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not a European but I did study some Eastern European history at the university level. That was during the final days of the Soviet empire. English language sources traced Russia's pre-Mongol roots to the Kievan Rus, noting the geographical difference from the successor state. In terms of modern nationalism and recent history I can understand complaints that this represented unexamined bias. How this issue plays out on the Kievan Rus' article may be very interesting. Here we have the simpler question of architectural heritage.
I'll draw a few parallels. Roman architecture borrowed substantially from classical Greece, particularly in temple design. Late Roman architectural elements dominated southern Europe for much of the middle ages and migrated to Latin America with the Spanish. Another example of architectural borrowing took place between England and the United States. Boston's Old North Church designed in the style of Sir Christopher Wren in the early eighteenth century inspired widespread imitation in North America. The stereotypical United States church might be described as a white wooden or red brick structure with a single nave and no transept and a single pointed tower above the main entrance door. The style shares traits with Christopher Wren's church London's St. Andrew-by-the-Wardrobe, but resembles few structures in continental Europe. The architectural debts the United States owes to Great Britain are not a political issue.
This makes me optimistic that an NPOV article about Russian architecture could acknowledge heritage in Kievan Rus. This article needs a better explanation of Kievan Rus and its relationship to modern Russia. The caption to the church at Novgorod, for example, fails to state which country it is in. Brief references to modern Ukranian and Belorussian architecture would also be appropriate. This regional international style developed at roughly the same time as gothic architecture. Articles about that style may serve as a useful model for NPOV compromise here. Best wishes with this fine subject. Your churches certainly are beautiful. Durova 17:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, American university courses in architectural history routinely show images of London buildings (and Greek buildings, etc.) when illustrating precursors of American styles. The important difference between those presentations and this article is clarity. An American professor or textbook will state something like, "This is the Choragic Monument to Lysicrates in Athens, Greece built 334 BC." Then, "Similar cylindrical designs became a motif in New York City architecture. The earliest surviving example is the tower at St. Paul's Chapel, 1766. Observe the similarities with the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Riverside Park at 89th Street, 1902. Fashionable nineteenth century apartment buildings used the shape to conceal water towers."
The weakness in your present article is the ambiguous text regarding stylistic influences. Whether or not the editors intend to claim Novgorod and Kiev as part of Russia, it's possible to interpret the current text that way. Assign more specific locations and dates within your article and the dispute will probably resolve itself.
Most English speaking readers have little background in this subject. My suggestion is to give a brief summary of the history and geography, then mention the influence of Kievan Rus architecture on all three modern states (Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine). Put a line or two in NPOV terms about the debate over whether the medieval Kievan state is a precursor of modern Russia. Make sure the headings, captions, and examples explain where each structure is located.
Again, best wishes. Durova 01:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
--- --- --- ---
Would you describe Hagia Sophia as Greek architecture -- not Greek-inspired, but Greek? I would. It's not in Greece now, but it was when it was built. It of course would ALSO be described in an article on Turkey, and be called Turkish architecture, but in a different sense -- as architecture IN Turkey, not architecture MADE by Turks.
Similarly, pre-war buildings in Kaliningrad are German architecture (and also Russian), old buildings in Dublin are British architecture (and also Irish), and so forth. This seems unexceptionable, to me.
Buildings in Kiev, if old enough, are Russian architecture -- that is, they were built by people who, culturally, were on the direct line of descent to Russian culture. In other words, they were "in" Russia (or proto-Russia, anyway) when they were built; there was no sense of "Ukraine" as an entity separate from "Russia" at that time, I don't think.
In Constantinople, you have a clear line: Buildings erected there were Greek before 1453, Turkish after. (Even if designed and built by Greeks, they were created under the ultimate control of Turks -- somewhere, a Turkish official had to give the OK for the project, even if just passively by not stopping it. For the same reason, buildings in Moscow designed by Italian nationals are still Russian architecture.)
In Kiev there is no such clear break point, so maybe that makes it harder to deal with. But I would say this:
Architecture in Kievian Rus' should be described in articles about Russia AND in articles about Ukraine. There doesn't need to be one central article which is the single source on Kievian architecture. Maybe it would be IDEAL, but its not necessary. I would expect to see a description on Hagia Sophia in an article on Greece AND in article on Turkey. They might describe Hagia Sophia differently; that can't be helped. Ultimately the researcher will have to sort it out.
So what I'm saying is... Yes Kievian Rus' architecture belongs here, and the POV tag should be removed if I understand the issue aright. Editors working on Ukranian subjects have EVERY right to include every building that is or ever was in the Ukraine, but NO right to demand that Russian subjects not include material on the Russian cultural homeland. Herostratus 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC) --- --- --- ---
I'm no expert on the architectural history of Constantinople/Istanbul - so unfortunately I can't comment on Hagia Sophia. I can comment on an analogous historical situation in the southwestern United States. The oldest architecture in this part of the world is the Anasazi ruins and the Taos Pueblo and related Pueblo villages. California's Spanish colonial missions also predate United States presence in the area. It's worth noting political geography when introducing these styles. Architectural history would discuss their influence on later structures.
One of the earliest examples of Art deco architecture is The Cliff Dwelling in New York City, built in 1911 (also [12] and [13]). One of the strains of United States culture has been the desire to assert independence from European culture. Skyscrapers were an American innovation. The earliest ones copied European design motifs. This draws parallels to the Anasazi tradition of building onto vertical spaces. Indigenous North American motifs became an important art deco theme, for example in the Chanin Building in midtown Manhattan, 1929 (also decorative details [14] and [15]).
Mission Revival Style architecture and Spanish Colonial Revival Style architecture continue to be popular in southwestern states. A particularly attractive example is the city hall of Pasadena, California. [16]
The point of these examples is to illustrate how stylistic influence and continuity matter to architectural history. The land that now comprises the United States has undergone enormous cultural change in the last thousand years. It would be somewhat unfair to the Hopi and Zuni to study art deco design without acknowledging them. If Hagia Sophia exerted an influence over Turkish architecture, then by all means study it in that context. Architectural categories can overlap. This article has chosen to focus mainly on Russian church architecture. Since it follows a continuous tradition, it makes sense to trace that tradition to its origins. Durova 23:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, just one more time you attempted to cite the source that doesn't support what you were saying. Good at least, that you admitted that this time. Now, to your last part, how could the linguists of the later 19th century report something of the time of Kievan Rus. All such research is purely speculative and as such are not reports. The prevailing mainstream idea of the Ukrainian language origin, as presented for instance in Britannica, was already discussed at UA L talk. That you flooded the UA L article with the alternative speculations of some researchers that stay out of mainstream is yet to be moderated. I simply set myself to put your ArbCom behind first and than deal with the articles which you damaged so much, such as the Ukrainian language and Ukrainization. You cannot continue with pushing these ideas to more articles until there is some community support for that at the article's talk. -- Irpen 16:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, we have only one report about that time, which is the Primary Chronicle. All the research of 19th, 20th and other century scientists, both the reputable ones and the chalratanes, can only be speculative by nature. Some of this research is considered credible and made it to mainstream books, some didn't. I never called Shakhmatov a charlatane. I only questioned your calling the 19th century research a "report of the language in Kievan Rus". -- Irpen
Ms Durova, Re. the tribe of Polyany, yes, this is a common view advanced in mainstream. Even the Russian textbooks say this. There is no emphasis at all. A single sentence (reverted recently with a disruptive comment) about the identity of people who built Kiev churches should be present in the article, don't you think? Note, I carefully kept the pro-Russian POV. The recent reverting edit deleted another POV and restored the monopoly of the pro-Russian view. -- Andrew Alexander 17:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, please note your objections regarding listing opposing POV's. You are quite active reverting Kyiv Oblast to its Russian transliteration ;).-- Andrew Alexander 04:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't get what you said in the first sentence. Please rephrase. As for Talk:Kiev Oblast that you listed for a move vote, it is fine with me as long as you are not bringing another bunch of followers from forums instructing them what to do. Please also note that it was you who were just reverting. I am developing an article. All you did was come and change names in the initial version and in the following more developed versions right in the middle of my work. I was writing and expanding an article and you were just changing names. Don't you see the difference? People here write articles and all you and your namesake do is Ukrainization. You chose a much easier mission for yourself, I must admit. -- Irpen 04:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I am sorry. I thought you were just rephrasing some sentences there to make it look like editing while you were reverting. I apologize for such a mistake. Anyway, any hope of reply in this discussion? Or, still busy expanding?-- Andrew Alexander 04:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
As for "just rephrasing" none of my expansion edits included reverting you (I did that in separate edits) and why not others just compare the versions to see whether I added info or just rephrased. -- Irpen 04:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks like my efforts at NPOV comment aren't really leading toward resolution. I suggest you try mediation. You already have the best advice I can give. I'd like to thank this dialogue for something: it prompted me to check architecture of the United States which was really in dismal shape. It's somewhat better now. Best wishes. Durova 00:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is something nice from www.otechestvo.org.ua
-- Kuban kazak 11:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, AndriyK and Andrew Alexander have kept the POV notice on this article while stifling any meaningful contributions for a full six weeks.
I've tried moderating the discussion and editing the article to a neutral point-of-view version myself, and I've initiated a request for comment, but the commentors have given up.
The next logical step according to Wikipedia:Disputes seems to be to conduct a survey. You may consult #Summary of the dispute above, but I don't think it clarifies the nature of this dispute at all. Instead, I'll cut to the chase, and conduct a simple survey. This is not a binding vote, but just a survey to gauge the consensus. If you take exception to the wording of my survey, then I suggest you conduct your own survey.
Who is in favour of including all of the architecture of Kievan Rus in the article " Russian architecture"?
As indicated already many times, none of the opposing editors are against this article referencing all of Kievan, Byzantine, Greek, and other architectures as examples of style. The question needs to be reformulated. Right now it sounds misleading. It does not reflect the point of this dispute. Consider the following: Who is in favor of not acknowledging national and chronological ownership of the Kievan Rus temples mentioned in this article?-- Andrew Alexander 04:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Академик Рыбаков предложил использовать в русском языке слово "руський" для понятий относящихся к периоду Киевской Руси, чтобы не было путаницы. Новшество не прижилось. Полагаю, что должна быть отдельная статья об архитектуре Киевской Руси, возможно она будет на 60% пересекаться с этой. Создание таких статей, опять же, один из стандартных путей в википедии для разрешения конфликтов. А статье Russian architecture безусловно следует говорить о древнерусском периоде и о его влиянии на всю русскую архитектуру, оговорив, что период Киевской Руси был общим историческим наследием для Украины, России и Беларуси. Для того, чтобы избежать спекуляции с термином "русский" и не создать ложного впечатления о тождестве понятий "Русь" и "Россия". Судя по странице обсуждения, некоторые редакторы именно так и полагают. -- Yakudza 20:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
not just silly edit wars? Are you accusing me of something? Comeon, I've just entered WP and you already call me silly? Please cool down. Ukrained 22:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I've reconsidered this survey which I started. I was frustrated with the impasse, and thought I would break it by reducing the dispute to its simplest terms. Of course it's much more complex, and all this has done is point out how painfully polarized this discussion has been. I shouldn't have acted so extremely, and I'm sorry for it. I apologize to everyone who's taken part in this discussion.
I've considered many times suggesting that we simply remove the architecture of Kievan Rus from this article (" Architecture of Kievan Rus" already exists), but of course it has to be referred to in this one; that architecture is the direct antecedent of the architecture of Muscovy and Russia, and that's the way it is treated in all other serious references. It doesn't make sense to divide the architecture of Kievan Rus at the modern borders. I do see AndriyK and Andrew Alexander's point, but I don't agree that covering the topic in this article entitled "Architecture of Russia" is the same as calling Kievan Rus "Russia". I also don't think that the answer is to explain the history of the politics concerning Kievan Rus, Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine in this article. The architecture is apolitical, and that discussion belongs elsewhere.
I don't know how else to resolve this. I'm just going to leave the POV notice and forget about it. — Michael Z. 2005-12-16 04:57 Z
This is nothing but a frivolous name for an article that included also Muscovy, Imperial Russia and Soviet Realism. -- Irpen 23:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
On the side note, it is to Michael and Ghirlandajo that some here have to apologize. Ghirlandajo took a huge effort to write an excellent and totally non-political art-related article. Michael spent an enormous amount of time going to the library, making an extensive books search, spending hours and hours on these discussions and explanations only to be bullied again by two ideologues with political agendas. I hope I got the right words in the last sentence. I am not an en-4 user. Oh yes, and if this entry of mine gets added to AndriyK's arbitration as another "evidence", I will only welcome that. This complete discussion is very well worth a look from the judges. -- Irpen 23:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to shorten the section on Kievan Rus and point to the main Kievan Rus architecture article? That would leave more space for public architecture and styles of later periods. I noticed several fine images at Saint Petersburg. I'd love to see these styles discussed. The Hermitage, please? Russian Gothic revival and beaux arts...interesting! The large number of bridges in that city raises a question for the Russians on the board: are there many distinctive bridges in Russia? I remember reading that the large network of navigable rivers in that part of the world was a significant factor in uniting it as a single empire. Regards, Durova 04:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Andrew Alexander, your russophobic remarks at talk pages is nothing new and they don't help to advance your point. Kazak, still, no need to resort to "А ты кто такой?". Keep it cool. --
Irpen 00:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Russophobic in respect that the churches were destroyed (an in Russia as well) not by the "Russians" but by the Soviet government comprised of Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and Georgians alike. -- Irpen 06:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't misquote your own self. "Russia destroyed two out of three Kiev's cathedrals", "Russia managed to blow up a good half of them" is right above. -- Irpen 07:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Gnomz007 added a paragraph:
"The medieval state of Kievan Rus' incorporated parts of what is now Ukraine and was centered around the towns of Novgorod and (later) Kiev. Its influence on architectural tradition extended to the modern states of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The status of Kievan Rus' as a precursor state to Russia is a somewhat politically charged issue after the fall of Soviet Union and the independence of Ukraine and Belarus."
The intention seems good. There are a few problems. First, Kyivan Rus was never centered around Novgorod. Perhaps there was some other state centered around it, but it wasn't Kyivan Rus. At the very least the statement needs a citation. Second problem is that the paragraph doesn't touch on the issue of alluding later to some Kyiv and Chernihiv churches as Russian (and not mentioning that they were built by Ukrainian ancestors in Ukraine). Again, I like the general direction of the paragraph, it just doesn't go too far in solving the disputed issue.-- Andrew Alexander 05:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ooops, I've read the complete phrase, but still it by no means started there.– Gnomz 007( ?) 05:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that you did not demonstrate any willingness to a compromise does not mean that the dispute is resolved. Please stop removing the tag and return to the discussion.-- AndriyK 16:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Usefull tag. Thanks! -- AndriyK 18:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
And you accuse us of being chauvists. Implying that Russians have no right to being successors of the Kievan Rus? Also the article headings clearly say that the period when these buildings were built was before Russia came into existance. Look write Ukrainian architecture and copypaste that heading into that time period. Write Belarusian Architecture and do the same. Or at least start them off with that heading. -- Kuban Cossack 20:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
At least you better write something rather than delete, revert and paste. Modern Russia has indeed little if anything to do to those cities. We are talking in historical sense here. Phew, forgot that this was already said. Oh well, WP:TROLL#Pestering. -- Irpen 08:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What is original? That Russia did not exist at the time whent St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev was built? Or that Kiev and Chernihiv does not belong to Russia? --
AndriyK 16:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've tried something; I hope it's accurate. If it isn't tell me and I'll remove it. I think this may solve the problem. -- Latinus 16:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I could have corrected it myself, but I am sure my changes will be reverted immediatelyx by those guys that only care about the removing the tag.-- AndriyK 20:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, your work is appreciated but the tag is totally inappropriate. To insist on the tag, the tagger must first list the objections and the community must in good faith address them in an attempt to satisfy the objections of the tagger. A healthy debate should ensue. This all already happened here. If the tagger is simply a troll, he would take a position of persisting and refusing to agree on anything other than to satisfy his fringe out of mainstream view. No way we can afford to allow trolls to pick any articles they want, tag them and enjoy their fringe POV getting prominence by damaging a good article. The way to distinguish between the valid objections that the community yet failed to address but trying in good faith and trollish stubborn persistence of some individuals, is to see whether the consensus finds the article agreeable. This was done and the straw poll was conducted. Once the community determines that the objections are simple trollism the tag cannot be kept based on the same objections. If anyone wants to retag the article again, the new objections must be brought up. Repeating the old ones, discussed and rejected by the community is simple pestering. Unless AndriyK or anyone has any new objections, they can't have the tag because if it is attempted to be justified by the old objections it is as good as unjustified at all. -- Irpen 20:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There was no consensus about removing the tag. The tag was there up to January 29. Then Irpen removed it. This provoked an edit war with User:Andrew Alexander. No consesus was formed. Irpen has a habit to call "consensus" everything what he agreed with Ghirla and alike.-- AndriyK 21:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, the talk page is here for everyone to view. AndriyK can attack his opponents as much as he wants. That's nothing new either. Why not consider starting to write instead of remove, revert and paste since this is all you have done since a long time? -- Irpen 21:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There was a survey, which results in 8 vs. 4 in favor for the proposal to keep Kiev Rus architecture as a part of the article. But,
There is still a dispute. Consensus has not been reached. In order to resolve the disput both sides are adviced to go for Mediation or Requesting an advocate ( Wikipedia:Resolving disputes).
With respect to the tag, it was correctly places based, and from both sides it followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral ( Wikipedia:NPOV dispute
Who and why was removing the tag?
I had an exchange re this with the same anonymous editor at my talk. I post it below because it is relevant. -- Irpen 03:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are right and check how much time people spent on the issue in response to his tag, checking the academic sources. BTW, tagging was the second thing he did. The first one was moving it to another title Architecture of Rus, that is despite it goes into the Socialist realism times, and we his trademark dirty trick with artificial history to make sure his point is forced upon others. Then he pasted the whole chapter to Architecture of Kievan Rus without any acknowledgement of the authorship, making an impression that he wrote such a superior article. Only after that he placed a tag and it was given a fare amount of thought by the community.
Michael even took an effort to go to the city library and saw that in academia the approach is similar to the one taken in the article. What more you could ask for from the editors who listened to his objections and gave the matter such a thorough study? Third parties mostly agreed as well. If there is a bias all over the world due to a historic influence of the Russian scholarship in the historiography, the way to address it is in the new scholarly works, not in encyclopedia whose aim is to summarize the matter based on the existing knowledge, rather than to "correct" it. [snip] We mast defer to the mainstream view and mention the minority view, if they are substantial but clearly as minority view, like Holocaust denial in the Holocaust article, or the "weather theory" in Holodomor or that Russia is not a descendant of Kievan Rus' but of Finno-Ugric tribes in the North, like some fierce Ukrainian nationalists are trying to portray it.
Objections raised earlier were thoroughly reviewed. If he has new objections, he is requested to bring them up not just tag the article. Adding the unexplained tag both destroyes the article's history and uglifies it. -- Irpen 03:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, my point is that he is acting in bad faith here as he has shown in the past he is able to, like frivolous moves of the articles and falsified voting oto prevent moving them back. If someone throws a tag, we must study his objections first and address them the best we can. Nothing can prevent a bad-faith user from persisting by just saying "I don't agree". He cannot be allowed to screw the articles just because his views differ from the reality. One thing is ignoring someone's objection. Another thing is to persist with objections that were addressed just to stubbornly make a point. -- Irpen 03:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
To Irpen:
What is bad faith? I remove inaccuracies from the articles in order to make wikipedia more precise and informative.
You and your friend make the opposite. You confuse the reader trying to convince him that the structures built by ancestors of Ukrainians (when Russia did not exist yet) are pieces of "Russian architecture".
These are you and your friends who act in bad faith trying to use Wikipedia for propaganda of Russian chauvinism.-- AndriyK 10:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Listen, what do you mean "I don't want to talk?". When he says something meaningful, I have to respond, otherwise I have no excuse in altering his edits without providing an explanation. What he is repeating above is addressed. What matters in not whose friends say what but what the mainstream scholars say. Check above the results of MichaelZ' reserach on that. Take a look at Britannica's Western Architecture article, particularly its "The Christian East :: Kievan Rus and Russia" section. Nothing can prevent a user from taking a stubborn stance a persisting with "I don't agree" claim for as long as he likes. If this is allowed, all history related articles would have been permanently POV-tagged. That they aren't is perhaps, there are not so many overpersistent trolls and the community at some points says "it's enough". The view that the Holocaust is the fabrication of the Zionist conspiracy, although a fringe one, has a sufficient number of adherents. By anon's logic, those people should be allowed to hold the Holocaust article hostage indefinitely. Or we should seek a compromise with the [21] in connection with Holodomor article. AndriyK's views are understandable tue enough. It was shown above that from the academic perspective those views have no merit as of now. When the mainstream views on the East-Slavic history change towards the view that Russian culture is not related to medieval Kiev, we will change the article. For now, he wasted enough of everyone's time. -- Irpen 20:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not mess up this page.-- AndriyK 10:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This message is addressed specifically to the fascists hiding under a mask of nationalism.
Architectural landmarks erected in the country of RUS, regradless of prefixes and suffixes used by TODAY's historians, must be called RUSSIAN (RUS+IAN, adjective, belonging to RUS)! Furthermore, these nationalist pretensions are not substantiated: Ukraine, as a pseudopolitical formation, was nonexistant until the 20th century. As such, Ukraine, meaning "outskirts" in Slavic, is a DECENDANT of the Russian Empire.
Don't try to be a smartass here! I spelled the word with a double S. Instead, you should ask that native speaker of yours to explain to you the usage of English articles before nouns (e.g. ...such A word...) Ebanko
I've protected the article, and suggested it as one of the Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. Please calm yourselves. — Michael Z. 2006-03-31 00:36 Z
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive discusses the edit war that has been destroying the history of this article started by a user who was shamed at his arbitration for this and many other reasons.
User:Ghirlandajo, you are showing a bad example to the novice Wikipedia editors, particularly User:AndriyK. Now he should be completely lost about the wikipedia rules and may actually never grow to respect other people's works.
Now the discussion page is linked between Russian architecture and Architecture of Rus, but the articles themselves and their histories are separated. abakharev 10:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
User:AndriyK, in the event you would almost single-handily wrote an article of a similar quality and some alternatively talented user would suddenly move it to a strange location, I promise not to scold you for using cut-n-paste to return the article where it belongs. abakharev 12:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
User:Ilya K posted a POV sticker on the top of the article, but forgot to explain his grievances on the talk page. Unless he would explain them shortly, I intend to remove the sticker. abakharev 12:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
October 2005 (UTC)
Guys, the only part that is disputed here is the title and whether one signle section belongs to the article, not even the neutrality of the section. There are special templates for that. User:Ilya K, if still unconvinsed, may add these templates to an appropriate section but there is no justification to put a disputed tag over the entire article. I repeat that the matter is not that I view his objctions as without merit but that they are obviously narrower than the general disputed tag. Also, please check the recent entries at Talk:Kievan Rus' for a very similar dispute. -- Irpen 14:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
For that, you can use the templates that question neutrality of the title and/or the particular section. But you can leave the global POV for now. Wait for kind of responses you will get. -- Irpen 21:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Still, as a suggestion, please consider the following: Template:POV-title-section, Template:Disputed-section and Template:POV-title which are more sort of narrow. or maybe none. As an alternative, write an article about Ukrainian architecture, include there the architecture of Rus' and I promise you, no one will bark. Also, your efforts to write an article about Ch. principality are highly appreciated. You can be sure it will be listed up for a move vote, but in any case your writing is helping WP. I hope this won't be the last article you write. Feel free to retract the load of shit you unloaded at Maidan but feel free not to as well. Your language speaks about yourself as much as about the others. -- Irpen 21:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Since there is little chance to convince user:AndriyK in anything, I suggest we put the appropriateness of the title up for voting. If we see a consensus emerging that the title is adequate, we will dump his tag. If not, we will discuss what the better name would be. In the meanwhile, I suggest AndriyK offers his suggestions on how to name the article. I bet his was joking with "Rus'" in the name of the article that included Soviet Realism architecture. I doubt he will take up my proposal to write a Ukrainian architecture article and have the issue settled this way. He can still contribute to Ukrainian baroque written by his perceived enemies of Ukraine. But maybe he has other good ideas. Objections? -- Irpen 20:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
We already heard you, AndriyK. Reread above and answer the question, if you can. You are asked to offer a name. Reread... Also, while Ghirlandajo didn't authorize me to speak on his behalf, I can asure you that if you will write a Ukrainian architecture article and would start it from Kievan Rus' chapter and would just paste his text there, he would not object at all from what I can tell -- Irpen 23:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Would it not be sufficient to put one brief sentence in that section explaining the meaning of Rus’? If it can mention in passing Ukrainian and Belarusan heritage without distracting from the subject, that should satisfy any reasonable East Slav. — Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:26 Z
OK, I think that with modified title of the first section now we can remove the tag. If anyone's unhappy with it and insists on reinserting it, propose a different title at talk for discussion. Throwing the tag an not proposing anything is the road to nowhere. Titling the article as "Architecture of Rus'" is just a bad joke. -- Irpen 16:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
In case it hasn't been clearly stated, very good work, G. — Michael Z. 2005-11-2 02:00 Z
I propose the following solution:
(The section in its initial form is copied to the article Architecture of Kievan Rus). If you are not agree, feel free to revert, but propose another solution. Removing the POV template is not a solution.-- AndriyK 20:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Irpen did not propose any solution, so I reverted back. If you revert, please propose your way tpo solve the issue.--
AndriyK 08:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I do not see a problem, so I can't propose the solution. You are the only one here that sees a problem when there is none. As per such, the problem is most likely with someone's Russophobia rather than the article's neutrality. And there are how many editors above that said that the article is OK? -- Irpen 08:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I changed the introductory page in accordence with the title. The POV-section template is added to the first section. The churches in Kiev and Chernihiv has nothing to do with Russian architecture.-- AndriyK 19:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, AndriyK. I added "The first examples of monumental architecture in Russia (as well as in Belarus and Ukraine) were the great churches of Rus'...", and you marked the section POV with this explanation on my talk page: "It would be incorect to consider churches in Kiev and Chernihiv as "Russian" architecture." Here you write "The churches in Kiev and Chernihiv has nothing to do with Russian."
You're just plain wrong. The architecture of Kievan Rus’ is equally part of the traditions of Belarusian, Russian, and Ukrainian architecture. The ancient architecture in Ukraine had a great influence on the entire Russian tradition. This view is probably more neutral than that of most mainstream English-language architecture books, so you should stop wasting everybody's time now. — Michael Z. 2005-11-3 20:42 Z
That is unless the person who disputes it is the only Wikipedians who sees a problem and also is known for defying consensus and having the radically out-of-the mainstream views for the WP community. -- Irpen 16:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, again, it is not my or anyone's business to tell you what to do but if you wrote some articles contributing to Wikipedia of about 10% of the great content contributed by Ghirlandajo (both Michael and I did have many disagreements and arguments with him) rather than roam around his, mine or other people's articles with meaningless name "corrections", you would be perceived differently by the community. You find articles and either inflame everyone by name modifications and strange changes of the titles, or cut pieces out of them or throw ridiculous tags on good or, at least, very acceptable articles despite there is a huge shortage of attention to Russia and especially to Ukraine in WP. In fact, there is only a single Ukraine related WP:FA ( Hero of Ukraine written mostly my Zscout370 and SashaZlv, while you manage to include Sasha too in the enemies of your Maidan war).
You then come here and do the same. Then you come to Orange revolution which Michael and myself took great pains to write very carefully weighting and researching every word of it.
You started a Chernihiv Principality. Do something there. If you manage to make a great article out of it, you might even succeed in having others agree to have it under the strange name out of respect to the author. This is a huge disruption and a waste of time of everyone, so far, including yourself to begin with. I offered you several times to forgo the bad blood and start some meaningful discussions. I am sure, many others would be willing to do it as well. -- Irpen 21:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
With all respect to Russian architecture, why am I called "racist" as well as being abused in other words by Mr. Ghirlandajo, when trying to state the obvious? Ukrainian architecture isn't Russian. I feel that this abuse goes beyond any possible rules of Wikepedia. Russia should not claim some foreign architecture to be "Russian". It isn't true. Russians have not migrated from Kiev to Russia, they took some styles and designs from there, but this doesn't make Kiev's architecture Russian.
Michael, I see no problem with the article about Russian architecture referring to Kiev's architecture. Just like I don't see any problem with the article about the later styles of Ukrainian architecture referring to Italian architecture. There were famous Italian architects working in Kiev. But would you like me to start listing all of their works as "Ukrainian"? If the same person built something in Milano using the same style, would I suddenly list those buildings as "Ukrainian"? It simply doesn't make any sense. The British Architecture page doesn't list Rome's Coliseum as a masterpiece of British architecture because there are some Roman buildings in Britain. If it did, would you call a person "racist" for trying to correct it? -- Andrew Alexander 23:26, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
This view (Russians stole history, Rus' were us rather than them, etc.) represents such a narrow fringe segment of Ukrainian nationalistoc viewpoint that it isn't even worth commenting. Say something serious if you want any serious responces. -- Irpen 06:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I think lack of support of the view that Kievan Rus history doesn't belong to Russia, and only to Ukraine, among other Wikipedians and in the Western historiography speaks about your ideas itself. Note, we are not talking about Halych-Vohlynia principality period here but about Kievan period. See above. -- Irpen 17:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
So would you or wouldn't you delete this section from Ukrainian architecture? -- Irpen 18:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Andrew, I think a better analogy than British/Roman would be avoiding describing Greek and Etruscan architecture under Roman architecture, or leaving out Byzantine architecture from an article about Turkish architecture. No one is saying that the architecture of Rus’ belongs to Russia and not to Ukraine.
Let's change the wording so that it can't be accused of implying that. Perhaps the language simply has to be more politically neutral. Would it work if the first section referred only to Rus’ and not Russia? — Michael Z. 2005-11-12 23:47 Z
Far too many editors have been adding unacceptable insults to their edit summaries here (and elsewhere). If I hadn't already been active in the discussion here, I would have protected it by now. You should all be ashamed of yourselves and apologize for the unprofessional behaviour. — Michael Z. 2005-11-11 20:25 Z
And to this I would like to add that the only editing by AndriyK and Andrew Alexander of this article was removing pieces form it, the measure which is generally frown upon except in few cases. -- Irpen 20:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Michael, I am sorry and I am always for compromising when possible but I don't see a possiblity to accomodate Andrew's and Andriy's fervent wish to exclude Kievan Rus' architecture from the Russian architecture article. I am sure that this part can be used directly in a Ukrainian architecture article too which our prolific revert warriors won't write because so far they just deleted stuff or changed names (or at least that was over 90% of their activity). If they cannot be satisfied with the fact the architecture of Kiev Rus' is part of the Russian architecture (as well as of the Ukrainian one), it cannot be resolved to their satisfaction. And if they will keep to express their dissatisfaction by deleting the chapter from the article, this article will have to be protected forever until their getting permanently blocked. -- Irpen 22:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
You are not making your point any more convinsing by repeating it. -- Irpen 17:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I bet you hope the border will not be where it is now and an ugly, Polonized Ukrianian style will be replaced by a noble, pure Russian style. The brainwashing got so bad in Russia, that Russian tourists start asking in Kiev, "so when did Ukrainians manage to steal all of these old buildings from Russia?". -- Andrew Alexander 01:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Guys, I beg you, stop quarrelling, you started fine with presenting your points, but now..., this page happened on my watchlist and that is no pleasure to have it come up it with undue accusations from both sides, please, discuss more calmly and constructively, or if you truly have no hope in each other - go through some Wikipedia formal procedure. – Gnomz 007( ?) 05:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this page protection looks more and more like a way to stifle any modification due to reasonable objections to calling Kiev architecture "Russian". A primitive nationalistic point of view of Imperial Russia is implemented despite all the evidence to the contrary. Let's summarize the gist of the Russian nationalistic objections to not calling Kiev Russian. "Kiev is a common heritage of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, and therefore it cannot belong only to Ukraine." Therefore Russia has a right to claim every Kiev building as its own. This claim is absurd. The reason it's absurd is that by any reasonable historical standard, a country cannot lay a claim on something it has not created or has no current posession of. Romania or Spain cannot claim the ownership of all the Ancient Rome buildings. Arabs cannot claim ownership of Israeli relics. Turkey cannot claim ownership of Athens temples. Even the "common source" theory would not justify any such claims. Especially if the "common source" lies mostly in ancient Kiev's projection of its cultural and military power, but is not supported by the evidence of mass migration from Kiev to Russia.-- Andrew Alexander 04:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This page has been protected for a week. How does everyone feel about unprotection and are you any closer to consensus? I'd like to remind everyone that even after this is eventually unprotected, edit warring and incivility is not to start up again. Dmcdevit· t 08:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
I apologize for taking so long to come up with a proposed revision. I'm working on it now, and should have something to post for review tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for your patience, everyone. — Michael Z. 2005-11-29 22:13 Z
Waiting on the revision.-- Andrew Alexander 03:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Done. Again, sorry for taking so long. Since protection had been removed and there was no comment or objection to my observations above, I've entered it directly into the article. It's wide open again, but let's please discuss any potentially controversial changes here, or try to make revisions that will be acceptable to everyone. I've tried to revise the intro and first section without making a wholesale rewrite or losing its sense, but still present the information in a way that could be acceptable to all sides of the controversy. There were also some minor changes further down, and a lot of minor copy-edits. If I haven't quite succeeded, let me know how it can be improved.
Thanks for the patience. This article is an excellent start, but I hope we can get past this, because there is the potential to write a lot more about other aspects, such as vernacular architecture, cubism and futurism, and later modernism. — Michael Z. 2005-12-1 05:37 Z
I see, Michael, you were working hard to prove that there are books in English calling architecture of Kyiv "Russian". You might work even harder and you find that some English language authors are still not avare about the very existance of Ukraine and do not see any difference between the USSR and Russia. You may work even harder and find the people still beleaving that the Earth is flat. Then add this all bullshit to Wikipedia. This will exstremely improve the quality of the resource.
You may be very surprised, but there are other languages in the world. And there are even sources on Kyivan architecture in these languages. Sadly (for you and your friends) they do not consider Kyivan archotecture as Russian [2], [3]. You may ignore these sources, but please do not remove the POV template. The problem is still there, even if you and your friends do not see it.-- AndriyK 13:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be much point in continuing to prevent further edits to this article. There has been no substantive discussion her in over a week. I'm unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 16:52, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
If I might add a fresh opinion to this old debate, I think it's worth taking a step back from individual words in the article. This entire talk page is a giant monument to bias, and the innocent article is a victim to a grander cause that has nothing to do with architecture. Whether St Sophia is called Russian is of no relevance to an architect or an art student. This only matters to a handful of Ukrainian nationalists. Just take a look at the pro-Ukrainian crew contributions: how much are they contributing about architecture, and how much are they contributing about non-Russian Ukraine?
The entire discussion is revisionism, aiming to satisfy the latest extremist views. Just ask yourself this. If you went back to the year 1054, and asked St Sophia's architect "Is your cathedral Russian or Kievan?", what would his answer be? He'd look at you funny and scoff.
The troubled relationship between Russians and Ukrainians is irrelevant for things from 11th century Kiev. It should be a side note, something kept in a separate article that a more interested reader may decide to check out at his leisure. It does not deserve all the attention and scrutiny so readily given by the wiki community. There is a direct, undisputed line that leads from 12th century Kiev to 14th century Muscovy. Kievans moved en mass to Muscovy to escape the Mongol invasion; early Muscovite princes were direct descendants of the Kievan House of Rurik. It's preposterous to claim that Kievans were somehow separate, unrelated. However you attempt to re-spell it, the first legal codex of Kievan Rus was called the Ruskaya Pravda. If that had the word Russian in it, so may the churches its writers built.
(P.S. I just discovered the Russkaya Pravda talk page and I'm too tired to post there, but anyone with even cursory knowledge of the language actually used in the 'Eastern Slavic territory' at the time of its writing will know that it was common to spell the word "Russian" with one s, even in documents written in Muscovy hundreds of years later.) 24.164.154.130 06:14, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I request the editor who added the POV tag to list his objections to its current form as 1,2,3... -- Irpen 03:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The current edition looks fine except for the two paragraphs:
"Medieval Rus’ (988–1230) The great churches of Kievan Rus', built after the adoption of Christianity in 988, were the first examples of monumental architecture in the East Slavic lands, the territory of modern-day Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The architectural style of the Kievan state which quickly established itself was strongly influenced by the Byzantine. Early Eastern Orthodox churches were mainly made of wood with the simplest form of church becoming known as a cell church. Major cathedrals often featured scores of small domes, which led some art historians to take this as an indication of what the pagan Slavic temples should have looked like.
The earliest Kievan churches were built and decorated with frescoes and mosaics by Byzantine masters. A great example of an early church of Rus' was the thirteen-domed Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kiev (1037-54), but much of its exterior has been altered with time."
According to many sources, e.g. Columbia Encyclopedia, Kievan Rus' was a "common heritage", but Ukrainian and Russian ancestors lived as separate peoples in different, often warring princedoms. E.g., the article says, "In 1169, Kiev was sacked and pillaged by the armies of Andrei Bogolubsky of Suzdal". It appears from this and other reliable sources that Kiev was not "Russian". Directly listing Kiev churches in the article called "Russian Architecture" is mispalced. The first Russian example of medieval architecture is Saint Sophia Cathedral in Novgorod. Hence the "Medieval Rus" architecture period in Russia starts not in 988 as the article states, but in 1044.-- Andrew Alexander 04:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
We are no longer speaking eleventh-century English or French. Today Rus’ and Russia mean different things, regardless that in Russian a single adjective is used for both. — Michael Z. 2005-12-6 02:35 Z
Sources supporting point of view #1:
Point of view #2 is supported by the following and other publications, which do discuss architecture of Kievan Rus under the heading "Russian architecture"—some of them refer to it by the adjective Russian, others don't.
Is this a fair summary? — Michael Z.
Sometimes I wonder why I write all this if the opponents don't even read it. Will repeat, again, " Do not refer directly to Kiev city churches as examples of "Russian architecture". Refer to them as examples that influenced Russian architecture. Also correct "Medieval Rus’ (988–1230)" to "Medieval Russia (1044–1230)"."-- Andrew Alexander 15:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I am not a European but I did study some Eastern European history at the university level. That was during the final days of the Soviet empire. English language sources traced Russia's pre-Mongol roots to the Kievan Rus, noting the geographical difference from the successor state. In terms of modern nationalism and recent history I can understand complaints that this represented unexamined bias. How this issue plays out on the Kievan Rus' article may be very interesting. Here we have the simpler question of architectural heritage.
I'll draw a few parallels. Roman architecture borrowed substantially from classical Greece, particularly in temple design. Late Roman architectural elements dominated southern Europe for much of the middle ages and migrated to Latin America with the Spanish. Another example of architectural borrowing took place between England and the United States. Boston's Old North Church designed in the style of Sir Christopher Wren in the early eighteenth century inspired widespread imitation in North America. The stereotypical United States church might be described as a white wooden or red brick structure with a single nave and no transept and a single pointed tower above the main entrance door. The style shares traits with Christopher Wren's church London's St. Andrew-by-the-Wardrobe, but resembles few structures in continental Europe. The architectural debts the United States owes to Great Britain are not a political issue.
This makes me optimistic that an NPOV article about Russian architecture could acknowledge heritage in Kievan Rus. This article needs a better explanation of Kievan Rus and its relationship to modern Russia. The caption to the church at Novgorod, for example, fails to state which country it is in. Brief references to modern Ukranian and Belorussian architecture would also be appropriate. This regional international style developed at roughly the same time as gothic architecture. Articles about that style may serve as a useful model for NPOV compromise here. Best wishes with this fine subject. Your churches certainly are beautiful. Durova 17:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, American university courses in architectural history routinely show images of London buildings (and Greek buildings, etc.) when illustrating precursors of American styles. The important difference between those presentations and this article is clarity. An American professor or textbook will state something like, "This is the Choragic Monument to Lysicrates in Athens, Greece built 334 BC." Then, "Similar cylindrical designs became a motif in New York City architecture. The earliest surviving example is the tower at St. Paul's Chapel, 1766. Observe the similarities with the Soldiers and Sailors Monument in Riverside Park at 89th Street, 1902. Fashionable nineteenth century apartment buildings used the shape to conceal water towers."
The weakness in your present article is the ambiguous text regarding stylistic influences. Whether or not the editors intend to claim Novgorod and Kiev as part of Russia, it's possible to interpret the current text that way. Assign more specific locations and dates within your article and the dispute will probably resolve itself.
Most English speaking readers have little background in this subject. My suggestion is to give a brief summary of the history and geography, then mention the influence of Kievan Rus architecture on all three modern states (Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine). Put a line or two in NPOV terms about the debate over whether the medieval Kievan state is a precursor of modern Russia. Make sure the headings, captions, and examples explain where each structure is located.
Again, best wishes. Durova 01:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
--- --- --- ---
Would you describe Hagia Sophia as Greek architecture -- not Greek-inspired, but Greek? I would. It's not in Greece now, but it was when it was built. It of course would ALSO be described in an article on Turkey, and be called Turkish architecture, but in a different sense -- as architecture IN Turkey, not architecture MADE by Turks.
Similarly, pre-war buildings in Kaliningrad are German architecture (and also Russian), old buildings in Dublin are British architecture (and also Irish), and so forth. This seems unexceptionable, to me.
Buildings in Kiev, if old enough, are Russian architecture -- that is, they were built by people who, culturally, were on the direct line of descent to Russian culture. In other words, they were "in" Russia (or proto-Russia, anyway) when they were built; there was no sense of "Ukraine" as an entity separate from "Russia" at that time, I don't think.
In Constantinople, you have a clear line: Buildings erected there were Greek before 1453, Turkish after. (Even if designed and built by Greeks, they were created under the ultimate control of Turks -- somewhere, a Turkish official had to give the OK for the project, even if just passively by not stopping it. For the same reason, buildings in Moscow designed by Italian nationals are still Russian architecture.)
In Kiev there is no such clear break point, so maybe that makes it harder to deal with. But I would say this:
Architecture in Kievian Rus' should be described in articles about Russia AND in articles about Ukraine. There doesn't need to be one central article which is the single source on Kievian architecture. Maybe it would be IDEAL, but its not necessary. I would expect to see a description on Hagia Sophia in an article on Greece AND in article on Turkey. They might describe Hagia Sophia differently; that can't be helped. Ultimately the researcher will have to sort it out.
So what I'm saying is... Yes Kievian Rus' architecture belongs here, and the POV tag should be removed if I understand the issue aright. Editors working on Ukranian subjects have EVERY right to include every building that is or ever was in the Ukraine, but NO right to demand that Russian subjects not include material on the Russian cultural homeland. Herostratus 08:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC) --- --- --- ---
I'm no expert on the architectural history of Constantinople/Istanbul - so unfortunately I can't comment on Hagia Sophia. I can comment on an analogous historical situation in the southwestern United States. The oldest architecture in this part of the world is the Anasazi ruins and the Taos Pueblo and related Pueblo villages. California's Spanish colonial missions also predate United States presence in the area. It's worth noting political geography when introducing these styles. Architectural history would discuss their influence on later structures.
One of the earliest examples of Art deco architecture is The Cliff Dwelling in New York City, built in 1911 (also [12] and [13]). One of the strains of United States culture has been the desire to assert independence from European culture. Skyscrapers were an American innovation. The earliest ones copied European design motifs. This draws parallels to the Anasazi tradition of building onto vertical spaces. Indigenous North American motifs became an important art deco theme, for example in the Chanin Building in midtown Manhattan, 1929 (also decorative details [14] and [15]).
Mission Revival Style architecture and Spanish Colonial Revival Style architecture continue to be popular in southwestern states. A particularly attractive example is the city hall of Pasadena, California. [16]
The point of these examples is to illustrate how stylistic influence and continuity matter to architectural history. The land that now comprises the United States has undergone enormous cultural change in the last thousand years. It would be somewhat unfair to the Hopi and Zuni to study art deco design without acknowledging them. If Hagia Sophia exerted an influence over Turkish architecture, then by all means study it in that context. Architectural categories can overlap. This article has chosen to focus mainly on Russian church architecture. Since it follows a continuous tradition, it makes sense to trace that tradition to its origins. Durova 23:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, just one more time you attempted to cite the source that doesn't support what you were saying. Good at least, that you admitted that this time. Now, to your last part, how could the linguists of the later 19th century report something of the time of Kievan Rus. All such research is purely speculative and as such are not reports. The prevailing mainstream idea of the Ukrainian language origin, as presented for instance in Britannica, was already discussed at UA L talk. That you flooded the UA L article with the alternative speculations of some researchers that stay out of mainstream is yet to be moderated. I simply set myself to put your ArbCom behind first and than deal with the articles which you damaged so much, such as the Ukrainian language and Ukrainization. You cannot continue with pushing these ideas to more articles until there is some community support for that at the article's talk. -- Irpen 16:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
AndriyK, we have only one report about that time, which is the Primary Chronicle. All the research of 19th, 20th and other century scientists, both the reputable ones and the chalratanes, can only be speculative by nature. Some of this research is considered credible and made it to mainstream books, some didn't. I never called Shakhmatov a charlatane. I only questioned your calling the 19th century research a "report of the language in Kievan Rus". -- Irpen
Ms Durova, Re. the tribe of Polyany, yes, this is a common view advanced in mainstream. Even the Russian textbooks say this. There is no emphasis at all. A single sentence (reverted recently with a disruptive comment) about the identity of people who built Kiev churches should be present in the article, don't you think? Note, I carefully kept the pro-Russian POV. The recent reverting edit deleted another POV and restored the monopoly of the pro-Russian view. -- Andrew Alexander 17:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, please note your objections regarding listing opposing POV's. You are quite active reverting Kyiv Oblast to its Russian transliteration ;).-- Andrew Alexander 04:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't get what you said in the first sentence. Please rephrase. As for Talk:Kiev Oblast that you listed for a move vote, it is fine with me as long as you are not bringing another bunch of followers from forums instructing them what to do. Please also note that it was you who were just reverting. I am developing an article. All you did was come and change names in the initial version and in the following more developed versions right in the middle of my work. I was writing and expanding an article and you were just changing names. Don't you see the difference? People here write articles and all you and your namesake do is Ukrainization. You chose a much easier mission for yourself, I must admit. -- Irpen 04:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I am sorry. I thought you were just rephrasing some sentences there to make it look like editing while you were reverting. I apologize for such a mistake. Anyway, any hope of reply in this discussion? Or, still busy expanding?-- Andrew Alexander 04:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
As for "just rephrasing" none of my expansion edits included reverting you (I did that in separate edits) and why not others just compare the versions to see whether I added info or just rephrased. -- Irpen 04:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It looks like my efforts at NPOV comment aren't really leading toward resolution. I suggest you try mediation. You already have the best advice I can give. I'd like to thank this dialogue for something: it prompted me to check architecture of the United States which was really in dismal shape. It's somewhat better now. Best wishes. Durova 00:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is something nice from www.otechestvo.org.ua
-- Kuban kazak 11:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, AndriyK and Andrew Alexander have kept the POV notice on this article while stifling any meaningful contributions for a full six weeks.
I've tried moderating the discussion and editing the article to a neutral point-of-view version myself, and I've initiated a request for comment, but the commentors have given up.
The next logical step according to Wikipedia:Disputes seems to be to conduct a survey. You may consult #Summary of the dispute above, but I don't think it clarifies the nature of this dispute at all. Instead, I'll cut to the chase, and conduct a simple survey. This is not a binding vote, but just a survey to gauge the consensus. If you take exception to the wording of my survey, then I suggest you conduct your own survey.
Who is in favour of including all of the architecture of Kievan Rus in the article " Russian architecture"?
As indicated already many times, none of the opposing editors are against this article referencing all of Kievan, Byzantine, Greek, and other architectures as examples of style. The question needs to be reformulated. Right now it sounds misleading. It does not reflect the point of this dispute. Consider the following: Who is in favor of not acknowledging national and chronological ownership of the Kievan Rus temples mentioned in this article?-- Andrew Alexander 04:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Академик Рыбаков предложил использовать в русском языке слово "руський" для понятий относящихся к периоду Киевской Руси, чтобы не было путаницы. Новшество не прижилось. Полагаю, что должна быть отдельная статья об архитектуре Киевской Руси, возможно она будет на 60% пересекаться с этой. Создание таких статей, опять же, один из стандартных путей в википедии для разрешения конфликтов. А статье Russian architecture безусловно следует говорить о древнерусском периоде и о его влиянии на всю русскую архитектуру, оговорив, что период Киевской Руси был общим историческим наследием для Украины, России и Беларуси. Для того, чтобы избежать спекуляции с термином "русский" и не создать ложного впечатления о тождестве понятий "Русь" и "Россия". Судя по странице обсуждения, некоторые редакторы именно так и полагают. -- Yakudza 20:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
not just silly edit wars? Are you accusing me of something? Comeon, I've just entered WP and you already call me silly? Please cool down. Ukrained 22:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
I've reconsidered this survey which I started. I was frustrated with the impasse, and thought I would break it by reducing the dispute to its simplest terms. Of course it's much more complex, and all this has done is point out how painfully polarized this discussion has been. I shouldn't have acted so extremely, and I'm sorry for it. I apologize to everyone who's taken part in this discussion.
I've considered many times suggesting that we simply remove the architecture of Kievan Rus from this article (" Architecture of Kievan Rus" already exists), but of course it has to be referred to in this one; that architecture is the direct antecedent of the architecture of Muscovy and Russia, and that's the way it is treated in all other serious references. It doesn't make sense to divide the architecture of Kievan Rus at the modern borders. I do see AndriyK and Andrew Alexander's point, but I don't agree that covering the topic in this article entitled "Architecture of Russia" is the same as calling Kievan Rus "Russia". I also don't think that the answer is to explain the history of the politics concerning Kievan Rus, Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine in this article. The architecture is apolitical, and that discussion belongs elsewhere.
I don't know how else to resolve this. I'm just going to leave the POV notice and forget about it. — Michael Z. 2005-12-16 04:57 Z
This is nothing but a frivolous name for an article that included also Muscovy, Imperial Russia and Soviet Realism. -- Irpen 23:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
On the side note, it is to Michael and Ghirlandajo that some here have to apologize. Ghirlandajo took a huge effort to write an excellent and totally non-political art-related article. Michael spent an enormous amount of time going to the library, making an extensive books search, spending hours and hours on these discussions and explanations only to be bullied again by two ideologues with political agendas. I hope I got the right words in the last sentence. I am not an en-4 user. Oh yes, and if this entry of mine gets added to AndriyK's arbitration as another "evidence", I will only welcome that. This complete discussion is very well worth a look from the judges. -- Irpen 23:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to shorten the section on Kievan Rus and point to the main Kievan Rus architecture article? That would leave more space for public architecture and styles of later periods. I noticed several fine images at Saint Petersburg. I'd love to see these styles discussed. The Hermitage, please? Russian Gothic revival and beaux arts...interesting! The large number of bridges in that city raises a question for the Russians on the board: are there many distinctive bridges in Russia? I remember reading that the large network of navigable rivers in that part of the world was a significant factor in uniting it as a single empire. Regards, Durova 04:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Andrew Alexander, your russophobic remarks at talk pages is nothing new and they don't help to advance your point. Kazak, still, no need to resort to "А ты кто такой?". Keep it cool. --
Irpen 00:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Russophobic in respect that the churches were destroyed (an in Russia as well) not by the "Russians" but by the Soviet government comprised of Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and Georgians alike. -- Irpen 06:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't misquote your own self. "Russia destroyed two out of three Kiev's cathedrals", "Russia managed to blow up a good half of them" is right above. -- Irpen 07:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Gnomz007 added a paragraph:
"The medieval state of Kievan Rus' incorporated parts of what is now Ukraine and was centered around the towns of Novgorod and (later) Kiev. Its influence on architectural tradition extended to the modern states of Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine. The status of Kievan Rus' as a precursor state to Russia is a somewhat politically charged issue after the fall of Soviet Union and the independence of Ukraine and Belarus."
The intention seems good. There are a few problems. First, Kyivan Rus was never centered around Novgorod. Perhaps there was some other state centered around it, but it wasn't Kyivan Rus. At the very least the statement needs a citation. Second problem is that the paragraph doesn't touch on the issue of alluding later to some Kyiv and Chernihiv churches as Russian (and not mentioning that they were built by Ukrainian ancestors in Ukraine). Again, I like the general direction of the paragraph, it just doesn't go too far in solving the disputed issue.-- Andrew Alexander 05:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ooops, I've read the complete phrase, but still it by no means started there.– Gnomz 007( ?) 05:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that you did not demonstrate any willingness to a compromise does not mean that the dispute is resolved. Please stop removing the tag and return to the discussion.-- AndriyK 16:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Usefull tag. Thanks! -- AndriyK 18:59, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
And you accuse us of being chauvists. Implying that Russians have no right to being successors of the Kievan Rus? Also the article headings clearly say that the period when these buildings were built was before Russia came into existance. Look write Ukrainian architecture and copypaste that heading into that time period. Write Belarusian Architecture and do the same. Or at least start them off with that heading. -- Kuban Cossack 20:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
At least you better write something rather than delete, revert and paste. Modern Russia has indeed little if anything to do to those cities. We are talking in historical sense here. Phew, forgot that this was already said. Oh well, WP:TROLL#Pestering. -- Irpen 08:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
What is original? That Russia did not exist at the time whent St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev was built? Or that Kiev and Chernihiv does not belong to Russia? --
AndriyK 16:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've tried something; I hope it's accurate. If it isn't tell me and I'll remove it. I think this may solve the problem. -- Latinus 16:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I could have corrected it myself, but I am sure my changes will be reverted immediatelyx by those guys that only care about the removing the tag.-- AndriyK 20:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Latinus, your work is appreciated but the tag is totally inappropriate. To insist on the tag, the tagger must first list the objections and the community must in good faith address them in an attempt to satisfy the objections of the tagger. A healthy debate should ensue. This all already happened here. If the tagger is simply a troll, he would take a position of persisting and refusing to agree on anything other than to satisfy his fringe out of mainstream view. No way we can afford to allow trolls to pick any articles they want, tag them and enjoy their fringe POV getting prominence by damaging a good article. The way to distinguish between the valid objections that the community yet failed to address but trying in good faith and trollish stubborn persistence of some individuals, is to see whether the consensus finds the article agreeable. This was done and the straw poll was conducted. Once the community determines that the objections are simple trollism the tag cannot be kept based on the same objections. If anyone wants to retag the article again, the new objections must be brought up. Repeating the old ones, discussed and rejected by the community is simple pestering. Unless AndriyK or anyone has any new objections, they can't have the tag because if it is attempted to be justified by the old objections it is as good as unjustified at all. -- Irpen 20:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There was no consensus about removing the tag. The tag was there up to January 29. Then Irpen removed it. This provoked an edit war with User:Andrew Alexander. No consesus was formed. Irpen has a habit to call "consensus" everything what he agreed with Ghirla and alike.-- AndriyK 21:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, the talk page is here for everyone to view. AndriyK can attack his opponents as much as he wants. That's nothing new either. Why not consider starting to write instead of remove, revert and paste since this is all you have done since a long time? -- Irpen 21:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
There was a survey, which results in 8 vs. 4 in favor for the proposal to keep Kiev Rus architecture as a part of the article. But,
There is still a dispute. Consensus has not been reached. In order to resolve the disput both sides are adviced to go for Mediation or Requesting an advocate ( Wikipedia:Resolving disputes).
With respect to the tag, it was correctly places based, and from both sides it followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral ( Wikipedia:NPOV dispute
Who and why was removing the tag?
I had an exchange re this with the same anonymous editor at my talk. I post it below because it is relevant. -- Irpen 03:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are right and check how much time people spent on the issue in response to his tag, checking the academic sources. BTW, tagging was the second thing he did. The first one was moving it to another title Architecture of Rus, that is despite it goes into the Socialist realism times, and we his trademark dirty trick with artificial history to make sure his point is forced upon others. Then he pasted the whole chapter to Architecture of Kievan Rus without any acknowledgement of the authorship, making an impression that he wrote such a superior article. Only after that he placed a tag and it was given a fare amount of thought by the community.
Michael even took an effort to go to the city library and saw that in academia the approach is similar to the one taken in the article. What more you could ask for from the editors who listened to his objections and gave the matter such a thorough study? Third parties mostly agreed as well. If there is a bias all over the world due to a historic influence of the Russian scholarship in the historiography, the way to address it is in the new scholarly works, not in encyclopedia whose aim is to summarize the matter based on the existing knowledge, rather than to "correct" it. [snip] We mast defer to the mainstream view and mention the minority view, if they are substantial but clearly as minority view, like Holocaust denial in the Holocaust article, or the "weather theory" in Holodomor or that Russia is not a descendant of Kievan Rus' but of Finno-Ugric tribes in the North, like some fierce Ukrainian nationalists are trying to portray it.
Objections raised earlier were thoroughly reviewed. If he has new objections, he is requested to bring them up not just tag the article. Adding the unexplained tag both destroyes the article's history and uglifies it. -- Irpen 03:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, my point is that he is acting in bad faith here as he has shown in the past he is able to, like frivolous moves of the articles and falsified voting oto prevent moving them back. If someone throws a tag, we must study his objections first and address them the best we can. Nothing can prevent a bad-faith user from persisting by just saying "I don't agree". He cannot be allowed to screw the articles just because his views differ from the reality. One thing is ignoring someone's objection. Another thing is to persist with objections that were addressed just to stubbornly make a point. -- Irpen 03:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
To Irpen:
What is bad faith? I remove inaccuracies from the articles in order to make wikipedia more precise and informative.
You and your friend make the opposite. You confuse the reader trying to convince him that the structures built by ancestors of Ukrainians (when Russia did not exist yet) are pieces of "Russian architecture".
These are you and your friends who act in bad faith trying to use Wikipedia for propaganda of Russian chauvinism.-- AndriyK 10:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Listen, what do you mean "I don't want to talk?". When he says something meaningful, I have to respond, otherwise I have no excuse in altering his edits without providing an explanation. What he is repeating above is addressed. What matters in not whose friends say what but what the mainstream scholars say. Check above the results of MichaelZ' reserach on that. Take a look at Britannica's Western Architecture article, particularly its "The Christian East :: Kievan Rus and Russia" section. Nothing can prevent a user from taking a stubborn stance a persisting with "I don't agree" claim for as long as he likes. If this is allowed, all history related articles would have been permanently POV-tagged. That they aren't is perhaps, there are not so many overpersistent trolls and the community at some points says "it's enough". The view that the Holocaust is the fabrication of the Zionist conspiracy, although a fringe one, has a sufficient number of adherents. By anon's logic, those people should be allowed to hold the Holocaust article hostage indefinitely. Or we should seek a compromise with the [21] in connection with Holodomor article. AndriyK's views are understandable tue enough. It was shown above that from the academic perspective those views have no merit as of now. When the mainstream views on the East-Slavic history change towards the view that Russian culture is not related to medieval Kiev, we will change the article. For now, he wasted enough of everyone's time. -- Irpen 20:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Please do not mess up this page.-- AndriyK 10:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This message is addressed specifically to the fascists hiding under a mask of nationalism.
Architectural landmarks erected in the country of RUS, regradless of prefixes and suffixes used by TODAY's historians, must be called RUSSIAN (RUS+IAN, adjective, belonging to RUS)! Furthermore, these nationalist pretensions are not substantiated: Ukraine, as a pseudopolitical formation, was nonexistant until the 20th century. As such, Ukraine, meaning "outskirts" in Slavic, is a DECENDANT of the Russian Empire.
Don't try to be a smartass here! I spelled the word with a double S. Instead, you should ask that native speaker of yours to explain to you the usage of English articles before nouns (e.g. ...such A word...) Ebanko
I've protected the article, and suggested it as one of the Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. Please calm yourselves. — Michael Z. 2006-03-31 00:36 Z