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Wondering why it was deemed worthy of deletion, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.112.20 ( talk) 13:32, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Using "Truther" as a pejorative and a reason for exclusion shows that Wikipedia is a bunk organization, as far as I have experienced. Mark19651965 ( talk) 09:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The academic paper is here https://ine.uaf.edu/wtc7 or the pdf directly https://files.wtc7report.org/file/public-download/A-Structural-Reevaluation-of-the-Collapse-of-World-Trade-Center-7-March2020.pdf . The article is as I can see finished but not published in a peer reviewed journal and could be included with that statement. The positive thing if it was included in this article is that any specific criticism towards the methodology could be directed towards the study itself and that would be very interesting. Simply excluding a 125 page 4 year engineering study from a reputable university by just calling it "delusional-nutjob nonsense" is more un-scientific than including it and discussing it. Excluding something based on namecalling is not how science works IMHO, and it is an unfortunate example of the weakness of Wikipedia. Creglim ( talk) 13:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I agree of course that for it to be RS it would have to be peer reviewed. Until it is, it is up to anyone who reads it to judge the quality of it, while I'm an academic I'm not a structural engineer, few of us are, which means of course that I have limited capability of critiquing it. However, I think it's not completely correct to not mention it, for what it is. I have only read the abstract that states that "The principal conclusion of our study is that fire did not cause the collapse of WTC 7 on 9/11, [...]" I find that at least interesting, I need to read the whole thing of course. I'm pretty new to Wikipedia so I don't understand what all the criteria for including a paper is. Is it a prerequisite that any study mentioned has to be peer reviewed? IMHO the fact that there is a study done, paid by A&E that further evaluates the collapse is in my view at least worth to mention in the context of the group. Maybe the study itself needs its own Wikipedia page so that it can be critiqued that way. Creglim ( talk) 14:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I see, thank you for explaining. So I guess that would mean that a peer reviewed article that is published should be included regardless of if it goes against "consensus", (as the publication and peer review process itself is what deems it significant) but if it is not peer reviewed it should not even be mentioned until it is? Could it have been mentioned in the non peer reviewed state if it would have confirmed the fire collapse hypothesis? Just trying to understand the system here. Creglim ( talk) 15:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Also, would it be different if the article was about the WTC7 collapse, I mean this article is about the group A&E - So the fact that they payed to have a study done is a different context than what the study says in the context of discussing the collapse itself. If you get what I mean. Creglim ( talk) 15:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Third update, sorry for that, but In the paper itself, two external Peer Reviewers are listed on page iii : EXTERNAL PEER REVIEWERS Gregory Szuladzinski, Ph.D, Chartered Consulting Engineer, Analytical Service Company and Robert Korol, Ph.D, Emeritus Professor of Civil Engineering, McMaster University Creglim ( talk) 17:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
No that's not how peer review works, (I have gone through the process myself many times.) However it's two other academics in the field who put their stamp of approval on the study. It would be interesting to know if Husley et al have sent it in to some journal for review/publishing and what the feedback was. My personal opinion is that it's always better to take things out into the light to be discussed than censoring. I think that would make Wikipedia better. (But this is not the place to discuss my personal opinion of course.) It's always good to be sceptical, however the trick is to have an open-minded scepticism. Even though there's so much politics involved in this issue. Are any of you peers by the way? (I mean structural engineers.) Creglim ( talk) 01:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
When RS mention this in connection with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth so can we. Slatersteven ( talk) 08:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for taking time to clarify these things. As I said, I'm quite new to the whole wiki process, so this has been very interesting to me on several levels. I just saw an interview with Hulsey on the channel 3D forensics ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXYpqJvjekM&t=7s), where he said that now that he is retired he is planning to write and publish some papers based on the report - which sounds like a good thing so they can go through the peer review process. It's good to have high standards on what to include, I'm not arguing with that in any way. I also agree that mere publication is not a guarantee significance. I have published papers which were totally insignificant :) However it should at least guarantee they uphold some kind of scientific quality. I'm sorry I missed that you are a structural engineer Rja13ww13, I should have seen it in the posts above. I still think that the fact that the group has funded a 4 year study by an accredited university on the collapse of wtc7 could be included in the article about the group. I also believe if we accuse Prof. Em. Hulsey of being a sellout nutjob, this has to be based on the same standards of proof for that statement. Like Acroterion wrote "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof". The group apparently has sought corrections through official channels to the NIST report, which now has led to them suing NIST for not fulfilling the Data Quality Act. However you look at the request for corrections themselves it explains what the group is doing. Suing NIST partly based on this report is quite significant information about the group's activity. Well, again thank you all for keeping this last part of the conversation civilized. It's going to be interesting to see what published papers if any come out of this process. All the best, Creglim ( talk) 09:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Citing a single paper by a single engineer does not prove that experts in engineering generally support NIST's work on WTC collapse. There are many problems with the Bazant paper — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.191.229 ( talk) 02:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Regardless of whether the study is "bunk" it is related to the Ae911 truth movement and therefor worthy of being in this article. Isn't this article supposed to be about the activities of Ae911truth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.191.229 ( talk) 03:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
This Sage Journal; Alternatives: Global Local, Political refers to and and discusses the study at least to some extent in the context of alternative views to the mainstream 9/11 narrative in the published article "9/11 Truth and the Silence of the IR Discipline" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0304375419898334 Creglim ( talk) 16:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I see that an editor has edited the description of the level of professional acceptance of fringe conspiracy theories [1] [2] to attempt to water down the level of rejection by professional A/E communities of 9/11 conspiracy theories. Of note is the recent Spike Jones controversy, in which Jones started out both-sidesing with AE 9/11 against serious academic sources. It hasn't gone well [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. None of these media sources take the position of AE 9/11 seriously, even if Lee did, and he ended up backtracking. They also point out the overall conspiratist mindset that has moved on to Covid conspiracies. See older accounts of professional rejection of AE9/11 [8]. While "universal" may not be the best word, it is a reasonable approximation of the level of acceptance among the millions of architects and engineers in the U.S. versus the thousands of of alleged conspiracy devotees. After all, just because some doctors prescribe unproven or harmful treatments and have attracted a vocal following doesn't mean that there is a significant level of acceptance in the medical community for such actions - this is no different. Acroterion (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Close discussion to keep OP out of AE territory | ||
---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This article is clearly biased in support of the ludicrous official version of the 9/11 facts. Reading the article it seems that the AE911 organization is comprised of just a bunch of conspiracy theorists and hippies, without acknowledging that there are more than 3600 architects and engineers that don't buy the official explanation of what is obviously a controlled demolition. Has this article been edited by the CIA? Itemirus (talk) 12:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 60 days
![]() |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | Sources for the article can be found at this subpage. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Wondering why it was deemed worthy of deletion, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.112.20 ( talk) 13:32, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
Using "Truther" as a pejorative and a reason for exclusion shows that Wikipedia is a bunk organization, as far as I have experienced. Mark19651965 ( talk) 09:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The academic paper is here https://ine.uaf.edu/wtc7 or the pdf directly https://files.wtc7report.org/file/public-download/A-Structural-Reevaluation-of-the-Collapse-of-World-Trade-Center-7-March2020.pdf . The article is as I can see finished but not published in a peer reviewed journal and could be included with that statement. The positive thing if it was included in this article is that any specific criticism towards the methodology could be directed towards the study itself and that would be very interesting. Simply excluding a 125 page 4 year engineering study from a reputable university by just calling it "delusional-nutjob nonsense" is more un-scientific than including it and discussing it. Excluding something based on namecalling is not how science works IMHO, and it is an unfortunate example of the weakness of Wikipedia. Creglim ( talk) 13:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I agree of course that for it to be RS it would have to be peer reviewed. Until it is, it is up to anyone who reads it to judge the quality of it, while I'm an academic I'm not a structural engineer, few of us are, which means of course that I have limited capability of critiquing it. However, I think it's not completely correct to not mention it, for what it is. I have only read the abstract that states that "The principal conclusion of our study is that fire did not cause the collapse of WTC 7 on 9/11, [...]" I find that at least interesting, I need to read the whole thing of course. I'm pretty new to Wikipedia so I don't understand what all the criteria for including a paper is. Is it a prerequisite that any study mentioned has to be peer reviewed? IMHO the fact that there is a study done, paid by A&E that further evaluates the collapse is in my view at least worth to mention in the context of the group. Maybe the study itself needs its own Wikipedia page so that it can be critiqued that way. Creglim ( talk) 14:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I see, thank you for explaining. So I guess that would mean that a peer reviewed article that is published should be included regardless of if it goes against "consensus", (as the publication and peer review process itself is what deems it significant) but if it is not peer reviewed it should not even be mentioned until it is? Could it have been mentioned in the non peer reviewed state if it would have confirmed the fire collapse hypothesis? Just trying to understand the system here. Creglim ( talk) 15:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Also, would it be different if the article was about the WTC7 collapse, I mean this article is about the group A&E - So the fact that they payed to have a study done is a different context than what the study says in the context of discussing the collapse itself. If you get what I mean. Creglim ( talk) 15:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Third update, sorry for that, but In the paper itself, two external Peer Reviewers are listed on page iii : EXTERNAL PEER REVIEWERS Gregory Szuladzinski, Ph.D, Chartered Consulting Engineer, Analytical Service Company and Robert Korol, Ph.D, Emeritus Professor of Civil Engineering, McMaster University Creglim ( talk) 17:35, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
No that's not how peer review works, (I have gone through the process myself many times.) However it's two other academics in the field who put their stamp of approval on the study. It would be interesting to know if Husley et al have sent it in to some journal for review/publishing and what the feedback was. My personal opinion is that it's always better to take things out into the light to be discussed than censoring. I think that would make Wikipedia better. (But this is not the place to discuss my personal opinion of course.) It's always good to be sceptical, however the trick is to have an open-minded scepticism. Even though there's so much politics involved in this issue. Are any of you peers by the way? (I mean structural engineers.) Creglim ( talk) 01:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
When RS mention this in connection with Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth so can we. Slatersteven ( talk) 08:46, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for taking time to clarify these things. As I said, I'm quite new to the whole wiki process, so this has been very interesting to me on several levels. I just saw an interview with Hulsey on the channel 3D forensics ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXYpqJvjekM&t=7s), where he said that now that he is retired he is planning to write and publish some papers based on the report - which sounds like a good thing so they can go through the peer review process. It's good to have high standards on what to include, I'm not arguing with that in any way. I also agree that mere publication is not a guarantee significance. I have published papers which were totally insignificant :) However it should at least guarantee they uphold some kind of scientific quality. I'm sorry I missed that you are a structural engineer Rja13ww13, I should have seen it in the posts above. I still think that the fact that the group has funded a 4 year study by an accredited university on the collapse of wtc7 could be included in the article about the group. I also believe if we accuse Prof. Em. Hulsey of being a sellout nutjob, this has to be based on the same standards of proof for that statement. Like Acroterion wrote "extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof". The group apparently has sought corrections through official channels to the NIST report, which now has led to them suing NIST for not fulfilling the Data Quality Act. However you look at the request for corrections themselves it explains what the group is doing. Suing NIST partly based on this report is quite significant information about the group's activity. Well, again thank you all for keeping this last part of the conversation civilized. It's going to be interesting to see what published papers if any come out of this process. All the best, Creglim ( talk) 09:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Citing a single paper by a single engineer does not prove that experts in engineering generally support NIST's work on WTC collapse. There are many problems with the Bazant paper — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.191.229 ( talk) 02:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Regardless of whether the study is "bunk" it is related to the Ae911 truth movement and therefor worthy of being in this article. Isn't this article supposed to be about the activities of Ae911truth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.191.229 ( talk) 03:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
This Sage Journal; Alternatives: Global Local, Political refers to and and discusses the study at least to some extent in the context of alternative views to the mainstream 9/11 narrative in the published article "9/11 Truth and the Silence of the IR Discipline" https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0304375419898334 Creglim ( talk) 16:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I see that an editor has edited the description of the level of professional acceptance of fringe conspiracy theories [1] [2] to attempt to water down the level of rejection by professional A/E communities of 9/11 conspiracy theories. Of note is the recent Spike Jones controversy, in which Jones started out both-sidesing with AE 9/11 against serious academic sources. It hasn't gone well [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. None of these media sources take the position of AE 9/11 seriously, even if Lee did, and he ended up backtracking. They also point out the overall conspiratist mindset that has moved on to Covid conspiracies. See older accounts of professional rejection of AE9/11 [8]. While "universal" may not be the best word, it is a reasonable approximation of the level of acceptance among the millions of architects and engineers in the U.S. versus the thousands of of alleged conspiracy devotees. After all, just because some doctors prescribe unproven or harmful treatments and have attracted a vocal following doesn't mean that there is a significant level of acceptance in the medical community for such actions - this is no different. Acroterion (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Close discussion to keep OP out of AE territory | ||
---|---|---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This article is clearly biased in support of the ludicrous official version of the 9/11 facts. Reading the article it seems that the AE911 organization is comprised of just a bunch of conspiracy theorists and hippies, without acknowledging that there are more than 3600 architects and engineers that don't buy the official explanation of what is obviously a controlled demolition. Has this article been edited by the CIA? Itemirus (talk) 12:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
|