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I created the article
I created the article, but it's just an stub for the moment.
Onofre Bouvila 17:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
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The Aragonese are certainly related to Catalans, historically they're also related to Valencians and Balears, and in cultural and linguistic terms they're related to neighboring communities such as Navarre or La Rioja. Too complex to explain in the infobox. -- Jotamar ( talk) 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Whether the A people is more related to the B people than to the C people is an extremely subjective question and we are not going to find any source that says the Aragonese are closer to the Catalans than to the Riojans, and if by any chance we found it, it would amount to a personal opinion at most. This is not a question of sources, bot one of common sense. Catalonia and Aragon (as well as Valencia and Balears) were politically united in the Middle Ages but 5 centuries have gone by and any person with insider information will tell you the same: that neither the Catalans nor the Aragonese feel particularly close to each other. The IP editor is just trying to impose a vision based on a very incomplete understanding of the question. -- Jotamar ( talk) 17:48, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
:::"personally I would prefer for all those pages to be erased from WP." Which pages are you referring to here? The ethnic groups of Spain or all ethnicity articles? If that is your perspective, that is not a helpful one in any case and may present a harmful bias to the project. These are accepted groupings of people based on ethnological criteria like ancestry, culture, behavioural traits, traditions, history, language, physical appearance, genetic heritage, etc. Ethnic groups and populations differ substantially.
:::It would seem you have a perspective that is more of that of a "lumper" than a "splitter", or one that sees Spaniards more of an ethnicity than the distinct regional groups of Spain. That is fine, which is why
Spaniards has its own article, as do those who identify as
Castilians. But others disagree, and this is well supported by the academic literature available. In the case of this respective dispute, I see no reason why not to include both Spaniards and Catalans under related groups - the Aragonese clearly have strong links to both Castilian Spaniards and Catalans. In the sensitive issue of Catalans, where many do not identify with Spaniards, or identify more with
Occitans or Andorrans, it is best to have them mentioned as a separate group.
Human Taxonomist (
talk)
06:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
:::::These aren't "pre-cooked" groupings.
Castilian language, people and culture emerged well over 1,000 years ago. I didn't invent that culture or people.
Castilian nationalism is a real political ideology. Just because a Castilian regional hegemony and imperialistic agenda sought to redefine all of Iberia as "Spain" and "Spanish" under Castilian cultural dominance does not mean other groups ever largely or significantly agreed with such an ideology. The Portuguese managed to maintain their autonomy, by force of arms and Papal assistance, but this does not mean the Basques, Galicians and Catalans did not attempt to as well. What "ideas" are you talking about which were "discredited" since World War II? Classifying ethnicities and populations is part of
ethnology and
anthropology. Ethnic groups and populations are demarcated by an assortment of genetic, ancestral, cultural and linguistic traits. If anyone is pushing a "World War II" perspective here, it is you with a seemingly
Francoist, Spanish nationalist or imperialist ideology attempting to erase the ethnic distinction between groups in Iberia, and deny any identification that sees itself as distinct from such a notion. There was no stable form of the article simply including "Spaniards". Look at the edit history - there were long periods where specific "Spanish" ethnicities were listed as having particularly close ties to Aragonese people. Aragonese have closest links with Castilians, specifically Castilian La Riojans and Castilian Navarrese, as well as to Valencians and Catalans. If you aren't aware of this, then you know little of Spanish history, especially that of the
Kingdom of Aragon and
Crown of Aragon.
:::::I suggest you start learning about the genetic, cultural and linguistic structure between ethnic populations of Iberia from this 2019 study here (note that Aragonese form a distinct cluster, which is closest to Valencians specifically):
Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula
Human Taxonomist (
talk)
09:13, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Aragonese people article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I created the article
I created the article, but it's just an stub for the moment.
Onofre Bouvila 17:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Aragonese people. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:37, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The Aragonese are certainly related to Catalans, historically they're also related to Valencians and Balears, and in cultural and linguistic terms they're related to neighboring communities such as Navarre or La Rioja. Too complex to explain in the infobox. -- Jotamar ( talk) 18:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Whether the A people is more related to the B people than to the C people is an extremely subjective question and we are not going to find any source that says the Aragonese are closer to the Catalans than to the Riojans, and if by any chance we found it, it would amount to a personal opinion at most. This is not a question of sources, bot one of common sense. Catalonia and Aragon (as well as Valencia and Balears) were politically united in the Middle Ages but 5 centuries have gone by and any person with insider information will tell you the same: that neither the Catalans nor the Aragonese feel particularly close to each other. The IP editor is just trying to impose a vision based on a very incomplete understanding of the question. -- Jotamar ( talk) 17:48, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
:::"personally I would prefer for all those pages to be erased from WP." Which pages are you referring to here? The ethnic groups of Spain or all ethnicity articles? If that is your perspective, that is not a helpful one in any case and may present a harmful bias to the project. These are accepted groupings of people based on ethnological criteria like ancestry, culture, behavioural traits, traditions, history, language, physical appearance, genetic heritage, etc. Ethnic groups and populations differ substantially.
:::It would seem you have a perspective that is more of that of a "lumper" than a "splitter", or one that sees Spaniards more of an ethnicity than the distinct regional groups of Spain. That is fine, which is why
Spaniards has its own article, as do those who identify as
Castilians. But others disagree, and this is well supported by the academic literature available. In the case of this respective dispute, I see no reason why not to include both Spaniards and Catalans under related groups - the Aragonese clearly have strong links to both Castilian Spaniards and Catalans. In the sensitive issue of Catalans, where many do not identify with Spaniards, or identify more with
Occitans or Andorrans, it is best to have them mentioned as a separate group.
Human Taxonomist (
talk)
06:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
:::::These aren't "pre-cooked" groupings.
Castilian language, people and culture emerged well over 1,000 years ago. I didn't invent that culture or people.
Castilian nationalism is a real political ideology. Just because a Castilian regional hegemony and imperialistic agenda sought to redefine all of Iberia as "Spain" and "Spanish" under Castilian cultural dominance does not mean other groups ever largely or significantly agreed with such an ideology. The Portuguese managed to maintain their autonomy, by force of arms and Papal assistance, but this does not mean the Basques, Galicians and Catalans did not attempt to as well. What "ideas" are you talking about which were "discredited" since World War II? Classifying ethnicities and populations is part of
ethnology and
anthropology. Ethnic groups and populations are demarcated by an assortment of genetic, ancestral, cultural and linguistic traits. If anyone is pushing a "World War II" perspective here, it is you with a seemingly
Francoist, Spanish nationalist or imperialist ideology attempting to erase the ethnic distinction between groups in Iberia, and deny any identification that sees itself as distinct from such a notion. There was no stable form of the article simply including "Spaniards". Look at the edit history - there were long periods where specific "Spanish" ethnicities were listed as having particularly close ties to Aragonese people. Aragonese have closest links with Castilians, specifically Castilian La Riojans and Castilian Navarrese, as well as to Valencians and Catalans. If you aren't aware of this, then you know little of Spanish history, especially that of the
Kingdom of Aragon and
Crown of Aragon.
:::::I suggest you start learning about the genetic, cultural and linguistic structure between ethnic populations of Iberia from this 2019 study here (note that Aragonese form a distinct cluster, which is closest to Valencians specifically):
Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula
Human Taxonomist (
talk)
09:13, 4 January 2020 (UTC)