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The following was in the article. It looks to me like good notes for expansion of the article, but it is really just a list rather than a written article, so I am moving it here for now, hoping someone will work it up into something that can go back in (and word it in a less POV manner than this). I've taken the liberty of fixing some spelling. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
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[end cut material]
"…many Kurdish families came back to Kirkuk to live peacefully with Arab families." No doubt. But from what I've heard on the news, others came back with more hostile intent, which should be referenced and mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why many people in the Islamic empire were able to keep their ethnic identity but adopt Islam (Turks, Indians, Kurds, Persians) while others adopted the Arab identity, language and culture yet retained their religion (most Arab Christians in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon etc.) and there were many who were able to keep both their own identity and their religion. Also this article is in need of expansion, so that's why I'm placing stub template. -- Inahet 05:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've never before seen Assyrians listed as victims of the al-Anfal campaign. I'm wondering even about Turkmen. Does someone have a citation for this? - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently…"? I'm not particularly working on this article, and I'll leave this to someone who is, but this strikes me as pretty much nonsense.
I removed most of the information from that section because it is unsourced at best, nonsense at worse.
Here is the info I removed: "As such, these peoples are referred to as Adnanites. Arabised-Arabs settled in Mecca when Abraham took his Egyptian wife Hagar or (Hajar) and his son Ishmael to Mecca. Ishmael was raised up with his mother Hagar and one noble Arab family who had settled in Mecca from current-day Yemen. Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently for the remainder of his life. For this reason his descendents have tradtionally been refered to as Arabised.
More generally, the Bedouin-Arabs are knowns as Arabised-Arabs because they came from the Assyrian desert. Arabised-Arabs can signify arabs who speak other Afro-Asiatic languages. They are "Arabic speakers". They are regarded as Arabs in contemporary times." -- Inahet 18:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It's now musch shorter, but still dubious: "The term 'Arabised-Arabs' has historically been used to signify Arabs who are descendants of Adnan, the son of Ishmael and grandson of Abraham." I doubt that this is an historical meaning of "Arabised-Arabs". The people with this legendary descent are simply known as "Arabs". "Arabised-Arabs", insofar as it is used, refers to people who lack this ancestry but have culturally become Arab, no? - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not very familiar with the traditional genealogy of the Arabs. I was always taught that Arabs were descendants of Ismael, and that was it. But since my start in Wikipedia, I have come across a very complex theory. The theory is that northern Arabs known as Adnanites descendend from Adnan and they settled in Mecca. They are known as Arabized Arabs (al-Mustariba). Southern Arabs who descend from Qahtan, brother of Adnan, are considered to be of pure origin (al-Ariba). More is explained in the Arab article but the information is mostly unsourced. Anyhow, I think it is best that we consult with an expert on this subject, so I'm adding the 'expert tag'. -- Inahet 07:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that Khoikhoi has asked for a citation for "Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include
Morocco,
Algeria,
Tunisia,
Libya,
Egypt,
Lebanon,
Syria,
Jordan,
Palestine,
Iraq." It's going ot be very hard to find a lot on line, because most online uses of "Arabization" will be about recent Arabization policies, not about the 7th and 8th centuries. At a quick check, looking online will require searches like Syria "7th century" Arabization -kurds
. I don't have time to follow up right now, but this may help anyone who is trying to find appropriate citation. Khoikoi, you might want to try following this up yourself. -
Jmabel |
Talk
05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some info on Sudan and will come back later to add sources -- unless someone else cares to do so. Certainly, however, the perverse and virulent anti-black racist thread in Arab culture needs to be examined here in the context of Arabization of the African continent and the slave trade as well. This is certainly a factor in the ongoing, brutal Arabization of Sudan. deeceevoice 13:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At least some of the information about Sudan is totally wrong and not substantiated. "In Sudan, the majority of citizens are blacks of various faiths who do not self-identify as Arab." This is wrong. The majority of citizens in South Sudan are black and not Arabs. There are various groups in the north who don't identify themselves as Arabs as well, like Nuba. The total of these are nowhere near a majority. Nuba are less than 2 million (5%) and all Southerners are around 25%. Please substantiate/reference you claims. Also, the dam being constructed is the Merowe Dam. Look up the Human Impact in that page. There are resistence, and even some rebelling against the government by the people there, but these people ( Manasir, Hamadab and Amri) do regard themselves as Arab. I must say I am from a neighbouring tribe (Shaiqiyah) with roots in the same area. Don't mistake the Sudanese government corruption, dictatorship and problems all over Sudan with just their Arab/Islam policy. They even have strong Arab and Islamic resistance.-- 143.167.172.126 18:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The countries that were Arabized were Arabized by force. Not to mention the forced conversion and massacres those savage Arabs did to the innocent non-Arabs.
Guy, I realize you don't like Arabization, but adding such obviously inappropriate categories as "ethnocentrism" is ridiculous, and removing well-established facts about how it happened is frankly unhelpful. The genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence all point towards the obvious conclusion - already drawn by Ibn Khaldun - that most modern Arabs are Arabized descendants of their countries' original inhabitants. (The genetic surveys alluded to in Berber and Palestinian are a good place to look.) - Mustafaa 03:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I neither like nor dislike Arabization. I was merely offering historical information on the subject. Arab migration is closely tied to the Islamic culture that was spread at the advent of Islam in late 660s. The reason I included imperialism catagory is because Arab traders spread Islam to Africa (which isnt imperialism), but when it was enforced after conquest of African nations by Arab armies, the states conquered slowly had to adopt Arabic and Islam as their religion, culture and language. This is cultural imperialism, and imperialism as is defined in the broad catagories assigned under the names. It is "ethnocentrism" only because cultural imperialism is included there, and it is under imperialism for the purpose of when vassal states were conquered. It doesnt mean that the Arab language religion and culture was spread by warfare, but we both know that during the expansion of Islam, conquest was a big part. Arabization and Islamization (for lack of a better word) are closely linked. Guy Montag 10:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The category imperialism does not apply to Arabization. Arabization was done in areas that weren't even part of the Islamic empire, for example, after the caliphate fell. I have no idea how ethnocentrism applies either, as Arabs adopted much knowledge from other ethnicities and Arabic even has many loan words from different languages. If you want to add a section on Arabization by force in ancient times, go right ahead, but cite your sources. Yuber 13:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to passionatly argue about this. All I can say is that there is alot of important information missing from this article, and in its current form there is something wrong with it. I have requested a 3rd opinion on the subject and I wont be making any edits until I see that opinion written down in talk.
Guy Montag 09:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that is understandable. The problem I had with this article was in how to specifically define the term Arabization as a migration or as a formal or informal government policy (see
Russification) after the conquest of other states asimposed on the conquered subjects. If it has to do with passive migration, then I was wrong, if it has to do with both, than something should be noted.
Guy Montag 19:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I wouldnt call them imperialist, unless you are talking about the Goths or the Visagoths. I call it pillaging, looting, and raiding :). The confusion was because of the term. I confused it with the same meaning as Russification.
Guy Montag 07:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, Arabization didn't involve much migration, did it? It was more just other ethnic groups beginning to speak Arabic and becoming culturally Arab, to my knowledge. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I wanna know does the arabized arab consider semitics? And if anyone have some info about what kind of language they spoke, especially those who settle in South Iraq. Thanks, Yours Semitic
I can answer the first one: "Semitic" is primarily a linguistic, not racial category, and since Arabs are considered Semites, and since Arabized peoples are considered Arabs, Arabized peoples are Semites. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 07:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Flat out wrong, even according to other Wikipedia pages (check "Aramaeans" for example). None of these groups originated in or even passed through the Arabian peninsula, to the best of our knowledge. The Semitic peoples arrived in the Middle East from Africa via Sinai, then spilt into two groups - the West Semites, which include the Canaanites and later Israelites and Judeans - and the East Semites, who comprised of the Akkadians and later Assyrians and Babylonians. Arabs come from a third branch, the South Semites, and were probably a later migration since:
A) Arabic is in the same language group (South Semitic) as a few African languages such as Amharic,
B) settlement or even long-term survival in the arid Peninsula is impossible without camels, which were not domesticaed until centuries later (which also makes the claim of pre-Arab peninsular migrations completely illogical), and
C) the first mention of Arabs is in the Battle of Karkar, around the 9th Century BCE, where they are mentioned along with the relatively recently domesticated camels, long after the other groups were already firmly established in the region.
As for the Aramaeans, they probably came from Mesopotamia, possibly from the former kingdom of Mittani. No evidence has arisen to suggest an Arabian origin. I therefore suggest that this entire sentece be deleted. —This unsigned comment was added by 88.155.189.49 ( talk • contribs) 14 March 2006. "8th Century BCE" changed to "9th Century BCE" by Naughtius Maximus ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
are there any Arabs who aren't descended from arabised arabs today? I've thought about Yemen but vast intermarriage with northern African groups rules them out but the original arab tribes came from Yemen or Oman right? Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, and Sudan, although this is highly disputed.
CIA factbook on Sudan, in the language section, has a note that there is a "program of Arabization in process". I thought that would be useful information to include in the article, seems like a citable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.110.161 ( talk) 01:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Considering only the content that is sourced, the article can be boiled down to Saddam Hussein's Arabization. Should we move this page to something like "Baathist ethnic cleansing in Iraq"? TO me that would better reflect the content of the article. VR talk 20:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
in the southern arabian peninsula, standard arabic was not spoken. Old South Arabian was the predominant langauge, and South Arabian alphabet the dominant script. These were replaced by Arabic language and the Arabic script after the expansion of the caliphate, someone needs to add a section on this to the article. DÜNGÁNÈ ( talk) 01:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The term Eurabia is a term of stupidity. It is used without distinguishing between turks, kurds, iranians etc. and arabs from someone who is obviously not well educated. Regarding the figures of 5% Muslims Germany versus 95% non-muslims it is also part of hysterical conspiracy theory.-- 88.130.20.93 ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
In Somali language, the Arabic word for book /kita:b/ is used ONLY for religious books, specially the Hadith and scripture books, e.g. Koran, Bible and Tora. The word buug is used for the rest of the books.-- 196.201.207.225 ( talk) 06:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The addition of mention of usage of the term "Arabization" in an information and communication technology & L10n context was deleted/reverted. What would be the best way to account for this usage - a new article? A variant on Arabization - Arabize - is even used as the name of a translation and web content company in Egypt.-- A12n ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Arabization in Malaysia is fact, not POV, and please do not delete the picture. We already have discussion under Talk:Malaysia regarding Arabization in Malaysia and we have support from Wikipedia member. Please read this member wrote (below) taken from discussion page Talk:Malaysia:
"::Indeed no. There are currently issues n Malaysia with the spread of Wahhabi Islam financed by Saudi Arabia, and an attempt to radicalise Malaysian Islam. That might belong under a political/religious topic. But the typical Malaysian dress has been such for a long time, and is merely now more prevalent. What you might have been noticing, if you are new to Malaysia, and had never visited before, is that there are a lot more visitors from Arab countries, who find Malaysia a very pleasant holiday destination. They do, indeed, dress in conservative Wahhabi style - but please bear in mind that such a style is also not inherently "Moslem", rather a style of dress, and is not typically Malaysian. docboat 01:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)"
Thanks docboat Naiseroder 04:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Most of the alleged "Arabization" mentioned in this page aren't real and just an imagination of a few anti-Arabs. Many of these supposedly "arabised" people never identified themselves as Arab. The only Arabised people are those who now lives in the Arab world, speaking arabic and identifies as arabs. A lot of these allegations of "Arabisation" come from outsiders, especially Westerners (doesn't matter whether european or asian or whatever ethnicity, as long as they're westernised they will have the same warped, prejudiced view of Muslims and Arab) who knew very little outside of what they learn from the "free yet full of western bias" media. 183.171.19.23 ( talk) 10:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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This article does not describe the arabization of any country. The arabization of Syria did of course not start 1946. The word "history" is there, but the history is not.
Bibiliography al-shbail, Abeer. (2017). Arabization and Its Effect on the Arabic Language. Journal of Language Teaching and Research. Halim, Wahyuddin. (2018). Islamization or Arabization? The Arab Cultural Influence on the South Sulawesi Muslim Community since the Islamization in the 17th Century. Anissa Daoudi (2018) Multilingualism in Algeria: between ‘soft power’, ‘Arabisation’, Sharkey, H.J. (2012), Language and Conflict. Stud Ethn Nation, 12: 427-449. doi:10.1111/sena.12009
‘Islamisation’, and ‘globalisation’, The Journal of North African Studies, 23:3, 460-481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahooith ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2020 and 1 December 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Mahooith.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the deWaal and Flint 2006, pp. 9 missing citation (tagged for now): while I believe it could refer to one of these two sources; [1] [2] (most likely the first, given the publication date), I can't verify the cited content as I don't have full access to either of them. M.Bitton ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
This section did not mention the beginning of Arabization in Sudan from the late Middle Ages onward. - The Rashaida are mentioned, but they are not the only people who brought Arabic to Sudan. Also, I deleted the following sentence, as it does not make sense when we are speaking of MSA. "In Sudanese Arabic, the G letter is the pronunciation for Kaph and the J letter is the pronunciation for Jim." Also, I deleted the paragraph on Arabization in modern Sudan, as it inappropriately dealt with the Darfur war and Janjaweed (pictured!) , that certainly have not been agents of linguistic Arabization. - Instead I used some neutral sentences and a source from the article Languages of Sudan. Munfarid1 ( talk) 20:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The following was in the article. It looks to me like good notes for expansion of the article, but it is really just a list rather than a written article, so I am moving it here for now, hoping someone will work it up into something that can go back in (and word it in a less POV manner than this). I've taken the liberty of fixing some spelling. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[begin cut material]
[end cut material]
"…many Kurdish families came back to Kirkuk to live peacefully with Arab families." No doubt. But from what I've heard on the news, others came back with more hostile intent, which should be referenced and mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why many people in the Islamic empire were able to keep their ethnic identity but adopt Islam (Turks, Indians, Kurds, Persians) while others adopted the Arab identity, language and culture yet retained their religion (most Arab Christians in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon etc.) and there were many who were able to keep both their own identity and their religion. Also this article is in need of expansion, so that's why I'm placing stub template. -- Inahet 05:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've never before seen Assyrians listed as victims of the al-Anfal campaign. I'm wondering even about Turkmen. Does someone have a citation for this? - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently…"? I'm not particularly working on this article, and I'll leave this to someone who is, but this strikes me as pretty much nonsense.
I removed most of the information from that section because it is unsourced at best, nonsense at worse.
Here is the info I removed: "As such, these peoples are referred to as Adnanites. Arabised-Arabs settled in Mecca when Abraham took his Egyptian wife Hagar or (Hajar) and his son Ishmael to Mecca. Ishmael was raised up with his mother Hagar and one noble Arab family who had settled in Mecca from current-day Yemen. Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently for the remainder of his life. For this reason his descendents have tradtionally been refered to as Arabised.
More generally, the Bedouin-Arabs are knowns as Arabised-Arabs because they came from the Assyrian desert. Arabised-Arabs can signify arabs who speak other Afro-Asiatic languages. They are "Arabic speakers". They are regarded as Arabs in contemporary times." -- Inahet 18:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It's now musch shorter, but still dubious: "The term 'Arabised-Arabs' has historically been used to signify Arabs who are descendants of Adnan, the son of Ishmael and grandson of Abraham." I doubt that this is an historical meaning of "Arabised-Arabs". The people with this legendary descent are simply known as "Arabs". "Arabised-Arabs", insofar as it is used, refers to people who lack this ancestry but have culturally become Arab, no? - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not very familiar with the traditional genealogy of the Arabs. I was always taught that Arabs were descendants of Ismael, and that was it. But since my start in Wikipedia, I have come across a very complex theory. The theory is that northern Arabs known as Adnanites descendend from Adnan and they settled in Mecca. They are known as Arabized Arabs (al-Mustariba). Southern Arabs who descend from Qahtan, brother of Adnan, are considered to be of pure origin (al-Ariba). More is explained in the Arab article but the information is mostly unsourced. Anyhow, I think it is best that we consult with an expert on this subject, so I'm adding the 'expert tag'. -- Inahet 07:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that Khoikhoi has asked for a citation for "Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include
Morocco,
Algeria,
Tunisia,
Libya,
Egypt,
Lebanon,
Syria,
Jordan,
Palestine,
Iraq." It's going ot be very hard to find a lot on line, because most online uses of "Arabization" will be about recent Arabization policies, not about the 7th and 8th centuries. At a quick check, looking online will require searches like Syria "7th century" Arabization -kurds
. I don't have time to follow up right now, but this may help anyone who is trying to find appropriate citation. Khoikoi, you might want to try following this up yourself. -
Jmabel |
Talk
05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some info on Sudan and will come back later to add sources -- unless someone else cares to do so. Certainly, however, the perverse and virulent anti-black racist thread in Arab culture needs to be examined here in the context of Arabization of the African continent and the slave trade as well. This is certainly a factor in the ongoing, brutal Arabization of Sudan. deeceevoice 13:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At least some of the information about Sudan is totally wrong and not substantiated. "In Sudan, the majority of citizens are blacks of various faiths who do not self-identify as Arab." This is wrong. The majority of citizens in South Sudan are black and not Arabs. There are various groups in the north who don't identify themselves as Arabs as well, like Nuba. The total of these are nowhere near a majority. Nuba are less than 2 million (5%) and all Southerners are around 25%. Please substantiate/reference you claims. Also, the dam being constructed is the Merowe Dam. Look up the Human Impact in that page. There are resistence, and even some rebelling against the government by the people there, but these people ( Manasir, Hamadab and Amri) do regard themselves as Arab. I must say I am from a neighbouring tribe (Shaiqiyah) with roots in the same area. Don't mistake the Sudanese government corruption, dictatorship and problems all over Sudan with just their Arab/Islam policy. They even have strong Arab and Islamic resistance.-- 143.167.172.126 18:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The countries that were Arabized were Arabized by force. Not to mention the forced conversion and massacres those savage Arabs did to the innocent non-Arabs.
Guy, I realize you don't like Arabization, but adding such obviously inappropriate categories as "ethnocentrism" is ridiculous, and removing well-established facts about how it happened is frankly unhelpful. The genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence all point towards the obvious conclusion - already drawn by Ibn Khaldun - that most modern Arabs are Arabized descendants of their countries' original inhabitants. (The genetic surveys alluded to in Berber and Palestinian are a good place to look.) - Mustafaa 03:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I neither like nor dislike Arabization. I was merely offering historical information on the subject. Arab migration is closely tied to the Islamic culture that was spread at the advent of Islam in late 660s. The reason I included imperialism catagory is because Arab traders spread Islam to Africa (which isnt imperialism), but when it was enforced after conquest of African nations by Arab armies, the states conquered slowly had to adopt Arabic and Islam as their religion, culture and language. This is cultural imperialism, and imperialism as is defined in the broad catagories assigned under the names. It is "ethnocentrism" only because cultural imperialism is included there, and it is under imperialism for the purpose of when vassal states were conquered. It doesnt mean that the Arab language religion and culture was spread by warfare, but we both know that during the expansion of Islam, conquest was a big part. Arabization and Islamization (for lack of a better word) are closely linked. Guy Montag 10:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The category imperialism does not apply to Arabization. Arabization was done in areas that weren't even part of the Islamic empire, for example, after the caliphate fell. I have no idea how ethnocentrism applies either, as Arabs adopted much knowledge from other ethnicities and Arabic even has many loan words from different languages. If you want to add a section on Arabization by force in ancient times, go right ahead, but cite your sources. Yuber 13:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to passionatly argue about this. All I can say is that there is alot of important information missing from this article, and in its current form there is something wrong with it. I have requested a 3rd opinion on the subject and I wont be making any edits until I see that opinion written down in talk.
Guy Montag 09:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that is understandable. The problem I had with this article was in how to specifically define the term Arabization as a migration or as a formal or informal government policy (see
Russification) after the conquest of other states asimposed on the conquered subjects. If it has to do with passive migration, then I was wrong, if it has to do with both, than something should be noted.
Guy Montag 19:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I wouldnt call them imperialist, unless you are talking about the Goths or the Visagoths. I call it pillaging, looting, and raiding :). The confusion was because of the term. I confused it with the same meaning as Russification.
Guy Montag 07:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, Arabization didn't involve much migration, did it? It was more just other ethnic groups beginning to speak Arabic and becoming culturally Arab, to my knowledge. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I wanna know does the arabized arab consider semitics? And if anyone have some info about what kind of language they spoke, especially those who settle in South Iraq. Thanks, Yours Semitic
I can answer the first one: "Semitic" is primarily a linguistic, not racial category, and since Arabs are considered Semites, and since Arabized peoples are considered Arabs, Arabized peoples are Semites. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 07:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Flat out wrong, even according to other Wikipedia pages (check "Aramaeans" for example). None of these groups originated in or even passed through the Arabian peninsula, to the best of our knowledge. The Semitic peoples arrived in the Middle East from Africa via Sinai, then spilt into two groups - the West Semites, which include the Canaanites and later Israelites and Judeans - and the East Semites, who comprised of the Akkadians and later Assyrians and Babylonians. Arabs come from a third branch, the South Semites, and were probably a later migration since:
A) Arabic is in the same language group (South Semitic) as a few African languages such as Amharic,
B) settlement or even long-term survival in the arid Peninsula is impossible without camels, which were not domesticaed until centuries later (which also makes the claim of pre-Arab peninsular migrations completely illogical), and
C) the first mention of Arabs is in the Battle of Karkar, around the 9th Century BCE, where they are mentioned along with the relatively recently domesticated camels, long after the other groups were already firmly established in the region.
As for the Aramaeans, they probably came from Mesopotamia, possibly from the former kingdom of Mittani. No evidence has arisen to suggest an Arabian origin. I therefore suggest that this entire sentece be deleted. —This unsigned comment was added by 88.155.189.49 ( talk • contribs) 14 March 2006. "8th Century BCE" changed to "9th Century BCE" by Naughtius Maximus ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
are there any Arabs who aren't descended from arabised arabs today? I've thought about Yemen but vast intermarriage with northern African groups rules them out but the original arab tribes came from Yemen or Oman right? Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, and Sudan, although this is highly disputed.
CIA factbook on Sudan, in the language section, has a note that there is a "program of Arabization in process". I thought that would be useful information to include in the article, seems like a citable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.110.161 ( talk) 01:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Considering only the content that is sourced, the article can be boiled down to Saddam Hussein's Arabization. Should we move this page to something like "Baathist ethnic cleansing in Iraq"? TO me that would better reflect the content of the article. VR talk 20:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
in the southern arabian peninsula, standard arabic was not spoken. Old South Arabian was the predominant langauge, and South Arabian alphabet the dominant script. These were replaced by Arabic language and the Arabic script after the expansion of the caliphate, someone needs to add a section on this to the article. DÜNGÁNÈ ( talk) 01:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The term Eurabia is a term of stupidity. It is used without distinguishing between turks, kurds, iranians etc. and arabs from someone who is obviously not well educated. Regarding the figures of 5% Muslims Germany versus 95% non-muslims it is also part of hysterical conspiracy theory.-- 88.130.20.93 ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
In Somali language, the Arabic word for book /kita:b/ is used ONLY for religious books, specially the Hadith and scripture books, e.g. Koran, Bible and Tora. The word buug is used for the rest of the books.-- 196.201.207.225 ( talk) 06:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The addition of mention of usage of the term "Arabization" in an information and communication technology & L10n context was deleted/reverted. What would be the best way to account for this usage - a new article? A variant on Arabization - Arabize - is even used as the name of a translation and web content company in Egypt.-- A12n ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Arabization. Please take a moment to review
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Arabization in Malaysia is fact, not POV, and please do not delete the picture. We already have discussion under Talk:Malaysia regarding Arabization in Malaysia and we have support from Wikipedia member. Please read this member wrote (below) taken from discussion page Talk:Malaysia:
"::Indeed no. There are currently issues n Malaysia with the spread of Wahhabi Islam financed by Saudi Arabia, and an attempt to radicalise Malaysian Islam. That might belong under a political/religious topic. But the typical Malaysian dress has been such for a long time, and is merely now more prevalent. What you might have been noticing, if you are new to Malaysia, and had never visited before, is that there are a lot more visitors from Arab countries, who find Malaysia a very pleasant holiday destination. They do, indeed, dress in conservative Wahhabi style - but please bear in mind that such a style is also not inherently "Moslem", rather a style of dress, and is not typically Malaysian. docboat 01:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)"
Thanks docboat Naiseroder 04:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Most of the alleged "Arabization" mentioned in this page aren't real and just an imagination of a few anti-Arabs. Many of these supposedly "arabised" people never identified themselves as Arab. The only Arabised people are those who now lives in the Arab world, speaking arabic and identifies as arabs. A lot of these allegations of "Arabisation" come from outsiders, especially Westerners (doesn't matter whether european or asian or whatever ethnicity, as long as they're westernised they will have the same warped, prejudiced view of Muslims and Arab) who knew very little outside of what they learn from the "free yet full of western bias" media. 183.171.19.23 ( talk) 10:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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This article does not describe the arabization of any country. The arabization of Syria did of course not start 1946. The word "history" is there, but the history is not.
Bibiliography al-shbail, Abeer. (2017). Arabization and Its Effect on the Arabic Language. Journal of Language Teaching and Research. Halim, Wahyuddin. (2018). Islamization or Arabization? The Arab Cultural Influence on the South Sulawesi Muslim Community since the Islamization in the 17th Century. Anissa Daoudi (2018) Multilingualism in Algeria: between ‘soft power’, ‘Arabisation’, Sharkey, H.J. (2012), Language and Conflict. Stud Ethn Nation, 12: 427-449. doi:10.1111/sena.12009
‘Islamisation’, and ‘globalisation’, The Journal of North African Studies, 23:3, 460-481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahooith ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2020 and 1 December 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Mahooith.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the deWaal and Flint 2006, pp. 9 missing citation (tagged for now): while I believe it could refer to one of these two sources; [1] [2] (most likely the first, given the publication date), I can't verify the cited content as I don't have full access to either of them. M.Bitton ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
This section did not mention the beginning of Arabization in Sudan from the late Middle Ages onward. - The Rashaida are mentioned, but they are not the only people who brought Arabic to Sudan. Also, I deleted the following sentence, as it does not make sense when we are speaking of MSA. "In Sudanese Arabic, the G letter is the pronunciation for Kaph and the J letter is the pronunciation for Jim." Also, I deleted the paragraph on Arabization in modern Sudan, as it inappropriately dealt with the Darfur war and Janjaweed (pictured!) , that certainly have not been agents of linguistic Arabization. - Instead I used some neutral sentences and a source from the article Languages of Sudan. Munfarid1 ( talk) 20:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The following was in the article. It looks to me like good notes for expansion of the article, but it is really just a list rather than a written article, so I am moving it here for now, hoping someone will work it up into something that can go back in (and word it in a less POV manner than this). I've taken the liberty of fixing some spelling. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[begin cut material]
[end cut material]
"…many Kurdish families came back to Kirkuk to live peacefully with Arab families." No doubt. But from what I've heard on the news, others came back with more hostile intent, which should be referenced and mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why many people in the Islamic empire were able to keep their ethnic identity but adopt Islam (Turks, Indians, Kurds, Persians) while others adopted the Arab identity, language and culture yet retained their religion (most Arab Christians in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon etc.) and there were many who were able to keep both their own identity and their religion. Also this article is in need of expansion, so that's why I'm placing stub template. -- Inahet 05:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've never before seen Assyrians listed as victims of the al-Anfal campaign. I'm wondering even about Turkmen. Does someone have a citation for this? - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently…"? I'm not particularly working on this article, and I'll leave this to someone who is, but this strikes me as pretty much nonsense.
I removed most of the information from that section because it is unsourced at best, nonsense at worse.
Here is the info I removed: "As such, these peoples are referred to as Adnanites. Arabised-Arabs settled in Mecca when Abraham took his Egyptian wife Hagar or (Hajar) and his son Ishmael to Mecca. Ishmael was raised up with his mother Hagar and one noble Arab family who had settled in Mecca from current-day Yemen. Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently for the remainder of his life. For this reason his descendents have tradtionally been refered to as Arabised.
More generally, the Bedouin-Arabs are knowns as Arabised-Arabs because they came from the Assyrian desert. Arabised-Arabs can signify arabs who speak other Afro-Asiatic languages. They are "Arabic speakers". They are regarded as Arabs in contemporary times." -- Inahet 18:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It's now musch shorter, but still dubious: "The term 'Arabised-Arabs' has historically been used to signify Arabs who are descendants of Adnan, the son of Ishmael and grandson of Abraham." I doubt that this is an historical meaning of "Arabised-Arabs". The people with this legendary descent are simply known as "Arabs". "Arabised-Arabs", insofar as it is used, refers to people who lack this ancestry but have culturally become Arab, no? - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not very familiar with the traditional genealogy of the Arabs. I was always taught that Arabs were descendants of Ismael, and that was it. But since my start in Wikipedia, I have come across a very complex theory. The theory is that northern Arabs known as Adnanites descendend from Adnan and they settled in Mecca. They are known as Arabized Arabs (al-Mustariba). Southern Arabs who descend from Qahtan, brother of Adnan, are considered to be of pure origin (al-Ariba). More is explained in the Arab article but the information is mostly unsourced. Anyhow, I think it is best that we consult with an expert on this subject, so I'm adding the 'expert tag'. -- Inahet 07:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that Khoikhoi has asked for a citation for "Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include
Morocco,
Algeria,
Tunisia,
Libya,
Egypt,
Lebanon,
Syria,
Jordan,
Palestine,
Iraq." It's going ot be very hard to find a lot on line, because most online uses of "Arabization" will be about recent Arabization policies, not about the 7th and 8th centuries. At a quick check, looking online will require searches like Syria "7th century" Arabization -kurds
. I don't have time to follow up right now, but this may help anyone who is trying to find appropriate citation. Khoikoi, you might want to try following this up yourself. -
Jmabel |
Talk
05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some info on Sudan and will come back later to add sources -- unless someone else cares to do so. Certainly, however, the perverse and virulent anti-black racist thread in Arab culture needs to be examined here in the context of Arabization of the African continent and the slave trade as well. This is certainly a factor in the ongoing, brutal Arabization of Sudan. deeceevoice 13:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At least some of the information about Sudan is totally wrong and not substantiated. "In Sudan, the majority of citizens are blacks of various faiths who do not self-identify as Arab." This is wrong. The majority of citizens in South Sudan are black and not Arabs. There are various groups in the north who don't identify themselves as Arabs as well, like Nuba. The total of these are nowhere near a majority. Nuba are less than 2 million (5%) and all Southerners are around 25%. Please substantiate/reference you claims. Also, the dam being constructed is the Merowe Dam. Look up the Human Impact in that page. There are resistence, and even some rebelling against the government by the people there, but these people ( Manasir, Hamadab and Amri) do regard themselves as Arab. I must say I am from a neighbouring tribe (Shaiqiyah) with roots in the same area. Don't mistake the Sudanese government corruption, dictatorship and problems all over Sudan with just their Arab/Islam policy. They even have strong Arab and Islamic resistance.-- 143.167.172.126 18:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The countries that were Arabized were Arabized by force. Not to mention the forced conversion and massacres those savage Arabs did to the innocent non-Arabs.
Guy, I realize you don't like Arabization, but adding such obviously inappropriate categories as "ethnocentrism" is ridiculous, and removing well-established facts about how it happened is frankly unhelpful. The genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence all point towards the obvious conclusion - already drawn by Ibn Khaldun - that most modern Arabs are Arabized descendants of their countries' original inhabitants. (The genetic surveys alluded to in Berber and Palestinian are a good place to look.) - Mustafaa 03:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I neither like nor dislike Arabization. I was merely offering historical information on the subject. Arab migration is closely tied to the Islamic culture that was spread at the advent of Islam in late 660s. The reason I included imperialism catagory is because Arab traders spread Islam to Africa (which isnt imperialism), but when it was enforced after conquest of African nations by Arab armies, the states conquered slowly had to adopt Arabic and Islam as their religion, culture and language. This is cultural imperialism, and imperialism as is defined in the broad catagories assigned under the names. It is "ethnocentrism" only because cultural imperialism is included there, and it is under imperialism for the purpose of when vassal states were conquered. It doesnt mean that the Arab language religion and culture was spread by warfare, but we both know that during the expansion of Islam, conquest was a big part. Arabization and Islamization (for lack of a better word) are closely linked. Guy Montag 10:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The category imperialism does not apply to Arabization. Arabization was done in areas that weren't even part of the Islamic empire, for example, after the caliphate fell. I have no idea how ethnocentrism applies either, as Arabs adopted much knowledge from other ethnicities and Arabic even has many loan words from different languages. If you want to add a section on Arabization by force in ancient times, go right ahead, but cite your sources. Yuber 13:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to passionatly argue about this. All I can say is that there is alot of important information missing from this article, and in its current form there is something wrong with it. I have requested a 3rd opinion on the subject and I wont be making any edits until I see that opinion written down in talk.
Guy Montag 09:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that is understandable. The problem I had with this article was in how to specifically define the term Arabization as a migration or as a formal or informal government policy (see
Russification) after the conquest of other states asimposed on the conquered subjects. If it has to do with passive migration, then I was wrong, if it has to do with both, than something should be noted.
Guy Montag 19:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I wouldnt call them imperialist, unless you are talking about the Goths or the Visagoths. I call it pillaging, looting, and raiding :). The confusion was because of the term. I confused it with the same meaning as Russification.
Guy Montag 07:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, Arabization didn't involve much migration, did it? It was more just other ethnic groups beginning to speak Arabic and becoming culturally Arab, to my knowledge. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I wanna know does the arabized arab consider semitics? And if anyone have some info about what kind of language they spoke, especially those who settle in South Iraq. Thanks, Yours Semitic
I can answer the first one: "Semitic" is primarily a linguistic, not racial category, and since Arabs are considered Semites, and since Arabized peoples are considered Arabs, Arabized peoples are Semites. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 07:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Flat out wrong, even according to other Wikipedia pages (check "Aramaeans" for example). None of these groups originated in or even passed through the Arabian peninsula, to the best of our knowledge. The Semitic peoples arrived in the Middle East from Africa via Sinai, then spilt into two groups - the West Semites, which include the Canaanites and later Israelites and Judeans - and the East Semites, who comprised of the Akkadians and later Assyrians and Babylonians. Arabs come from a third branch, the South Semites, and were probably a later migration since:
A) Arabic is in the same language group (South Semitic) as a few African languages such as Amharic,
B) settlement or even long-term survival in the arid Peninsula is impossible without camels, which were not domesticaed until centuries later (which also makes the claim of pre-Arab peninsular migrations completely illogical), and
C) the first mention of Arabs is in the Battle of Karkar, around the 9th Century BCE, where they are mentioned along with the relatively recently domesticated camels, long after the other groups were already firmly established in the region.
As for the Aramaeans, they probably came from Mesopotamia, possibly from the former kingdom of Mittani. No evidence has arisen to suggest an Arabian origin. I therefore suggest that this entire sentece be deleted. —This unsigned comment was added by 88.155.189.49 ( talk • contribs) 14 March 2006. "8th Century BCE" changed to "9th Century BCE" by Naughtius Maximus ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
are there any Arabs who aren't descended from arabised arabs today? I've thought about Yemen but vast intermarriage with northern African groups rules them out but the original arab tribes came from Yemen or Oman right? Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, and Sudan, although this is highly disputed.
CIA factbook on Sudan, in the language section, has a note that there is a "program of Arabization in process". I thought that would be useful information to include in the article, seems like a citable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.110.161 ( talk) 01:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Considering only the content that is sourced, the article can be boiled down to Saddam Hussein's Arabization. Should we move this page to something like "Baathist ethnic cleansing in Iraq"? TO me that would better reflect the content of the article. VR talk 20:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
in the southern arabian peninsula, standard arabic was not spoken. Old South Arabian was the predominant langauge, and South Arabian alphabet the dominant script. These were replaced by Arabic language and the Arabic script after the expansion of the caliphate, someone needs to add a section on this to the article. DÜNGÁNÈ ( talk) 01:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The term Eurabia is a term of stupidity. It is used without distinguishing between turks, kurds, iranians etc. and arabs from someone who is obviously not well educated. Regarding the figures of 5% Muslims Germany versus 95% non-muslims it is also part of hysterical conspiracy theory.-- 88.130.20.93 ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
In Somali language, the Arabic word for book /kita:b/ is used ONLY for religious books, specially the Hadith and scripture books, e.g. Koran, Bible and Tora. The word buug is used for the rest of the books.-- 196.201.207.225 ( talk) 06:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The addition of mention of usage of the term "Arabization" in an information and communication technology & L10n context was deleted/reverted. What would be the best way to account for this usage - a new article? A variant on Arabization - Arabize - is even used as the name of a translation and web content company in Egypt.-- A12n ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Arabization in Malaysia is fact, not POV, and please do not delete the picture. We already have discussion under Talk:Malaysia regarding Arabization in Malaysia and we have support from Wikipedia member. Please read this member wrote (below) taken from discussion page Talk:Malaysia:
"::Indeed no. There are currently issues n Malaysia with the spread of Wahhabi Islam financed by Saudi Arabia, and an attempt to radicalise Malaysian Islam. That might belong under a political/religious topic. But the typical Malaysian dress has been such for a long time, and is merely now more prevalent. What you might have been noticing, if you are new to Malaysia, and had never visited before, is that there are a lot more visitors from Arab countries, who find Malaysia a very pleasant holiday destination. They do, indeed, dress in conservative Wahhabi style - but please bear in mind that such a style is also not inherently "Moslem", rather a style of dress, and is not typically Malaysian. docboat 01:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)"
Thanks docboat Naiseroder 04:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Most of the alleged "Arabization" mentioned in this page aren't real and just an imagination of a few anti-Arabs. Many of these supposedly "arabised" people never identified themselves as Arab. The only Arabised people are those who now lives in the Arab world, speaking arabic and identifies as arabs. A lot of these allegations of "Arabisation" come from outsiders, especially Westerners (doesn't matter whether european or asian or whatever ethnicity, as long as they're westernised they will have the same warped, prejudiced view of Muslims and Arab) who knew very little outside of what they learn from the "free yet full of western bias" media. 183.171.19.23 ( talk) 10:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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This article does not describe the arabization of any country. The arabization of Syria did of course not start 1946. The word "history" is there, but the history is not.
Bibiliography al-shbail, Abeer. (2017). Arabization and Its Effect on the Arabic Language. Journal of Language Teaching and Research. Halim, Wahyuddin. (2018). Islamization or Arabization? The Arab Cultural Influence on the South Sulawesi Muslim Community since the Islamization in the 17th Century. Anissa Daoudi (2018) Multilingualism in Algeria: between ‘soft power’, ‘Arabisation’, Sharkey, H.J. (2012), Language and Conflict. Stud Ethn Nation, 12: 427-449. doi:10.1111/sena.12009
‘Islamisation’, and ‘globalisation’, The Journal of North African Studies, 23:3, 460-481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahooith ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2020 and 1 December 2020. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Mahooith.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the deWaal and Flint 2006, pp. 9 missing citation (tagged for now): while I believe it could refer to one of these two sources; [1] [2] (most likely the first, given the publication date), I can't verify the cited content as I don't have full access to either of them. M.Bitton ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
This section did not mention the beginning of Arabization in Sudan from the late Middle Ages onward. - The Rashaida are mentioned, but they are not the only people who brought Arabic to Sudan. Also, I deleted the following sentence, as it does not make sense when we are speaking of MSA. "In Sudanese Arabic, the G letter is the pronunciation for Kaph and the J letter is the pronunciation for Jim." Also, I deleted the paragraph on Arabization in modern Sudan, as it inappropriately dealt with the Darfur war and Janjaweed (pictured!) , that certainly have not been agents of linguistic Arabization. - Instead I used some neutral sentences and a source from the article Languages of Sudan. Munfarid1 ( talk) 20:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
The following was in the article. It looks to me like good notes for expansion of the article, but it is really just a list rather than a written article, so I am moving it here for now, hoping someone will work it up into something that can go back in (and word it in a less POV manner than this). I've taken the liberty of fixing some spelling. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[begin cut material]
[end cut material]
"…many Kurdish families came back to Kirkuk to live peacefully with Arab families." No doubt. But from what I've heard on the news, others came back with more hostile intent, which should be referenced and mentioned. - Jmabel | Talk 05:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't explain why many people in the Islamic empire were able to keep their ethnic identity but adopt Islam (Turks, Indians, Kurds, Persians) while others adopted the Arab identity, language and culture yet retained their religion (most Arab Christians in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon etc.) and there were many who were able to keep both their own identity and their religion. Also this article is in need of expansion, so that's why I'm placing stub template. -- Inahet 05:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've never before seen Assyrians listed as victims of the al-Anfal campaign. I'm wondering even about Turkmen. Does someone have a citation for this? - Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently…"? I'm not particularly working on this article, and I'll leave this to someone who is, but this strikes me as pretty much nonsense.
I removed most of the information from that section because it is unsourced at best, nonsense at worse.
Here is the info I removed: "As such, these peoples are referred to as Adnanites. Arabised-Arabs settled in Mecca when Abraham took his Egyptian wife Hagar or (Hajar) and his son Ishmael to Mecca. Ishmael was raised up with his mother Hagar and one noble Arab family who had settled in Mecca from current-day Yemen. Ishmael learned Arabic and spoke it fluently for the remainder of his life. For this reason his descendents have tradtionally been refered to as Arabised.
More generally, the Bedouin-Arabs are knowns as Arabised-Arabs because they came from the Assyrian desert. Arabised-Arabs can signify arabs who speak other Afro-Asiatic languages. They are "Arabic speakers". They are regarded as Arabs in contemporary times." -- Inahet 18:10, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
It's now musch shorter, but still dubious: "The term 'Arabised-Arabs' has historically been used to signify Arabs who are descendants of Adnan, the son of Ishmael and grandson of Abraham." I doubt that this is an historical meaning of "Arabised-Arabs". The people with this legendary descent are simply known as "Arabs". "Arabised-Arabs", insofar as it is used, refers to people who lack this ancestry but have culturally become Arab, no? - Jmabel | Talk 22:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not very familiar with the traditional genealogy of the Arabs. I was always taught that Arabs were descendants of Ismael, and that was it. But since my start in Wikipedia, I have come across a very complex theory. The theory is that northern Arabs known as Adnanites descendend from Adnan and they settled in Mecca. They are known as Arabized Arabs (al-Mustariba). Southern Arabs who descend from Qahtan, brother of Adnan, are considered to be of pure origin (al-Ariba). More is explained in the Arab article but the information is mostly unsourced. Anyhow, I think it is best that we consult with an expert on this subject, so I'm adding the 'expert tag'. -- Inahet 07:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that Khoikhoi has asked for a citation for "Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include
Morocco,
Algeria,
Tunisia,
Libya,
Egypt,
Lebanon,
Syria,
Jordan,
Palestine,
Iraq." It's going ot be very hard to find a lot on line, because most online uses of "Arabization" will be about recent Arabization policies, not about the 7th and 8th centuries. At a quick check, looking online will require searches like Syria "7th century" Arabization -kurds
. I don't have time to follow up right now, but this may help anyone who is trying to find appropriate citation. Khoikoi, you might want to try following this up yourself. -
Jmabel |
Talk
05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some info on Sudan and will come back later to add sources -- unless someone else cares to do so. Certainly, however, the perverse and virulent anti-black racist thread in Arab culture needs to be examined here in the context of Arabization of the African continent and the slave trade as well. This is certainly a factor in the ongoing, brutal Arabization of Sudan. deeceevoice 13:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
At least some of the information about Sudan is totally wrong and not substantiated. "In Sudan, the majority of citizens are blacks of various faiths who do not self-identify as Arab." This is wrong. The majority of citizens in South Sudan are black and not Arabs. There are various groups in the north who don't identify themselves as Arabs as well, like Nuba. The total of these are nowhere near a majority. Nuba are less than 2 million (5%) and all Southerners are around 25%. Please substantiate/reference you claims. Also, the dam being constructed is the Merowe Dam. Look up the Human Impact in that page. There are resistence, and even some rebelling against the government by the people there, but these people ( Manasir, Hamadab and Amri) do regard themselves as Arab. I must say I am from a neighbouring tribe (Shaiqiyah) with roots in the same area. Don't mistake the Sudanese government corruption, dictatorship and problems all over Sudan with just their Arab/Islam policy. They even have strong Arab and Islamic resistance.-- 143.167.172.126 18:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The countries that were Arabized were Arabized by force. Not to mention the forced conversion and massacres those savage Arabs did to the innocent non-Arabs.
Guy, I realize you don't like Arabization, but adding such obviously inappropriate categories as "ethnocentrism" is ridiculous, and removing well-established facts about how it happened is frankly unhelpful. The genetic, linguistic, and cultural evidence all point towards the obvious conclusion - already drawn by Ibn Khaldun - that most modern Arabs are Arabized descendants of their countries' original inhabitants. (The genetic surveys alluded to in Berber and Palestinian are a good place to look.) - Mustafaa 03:52, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I neither like nor dislike Arabization. I was merely offering historical information on the subject. Arab migration is closely tied to the Islamic culture that was spread at the advent of Islam in late 660s. The reason I included imperialism catagory is because Arab traders spread Islam to Africa (which isnt imperialism), but when it was enforced after conquest of African nations by Arab armies, the states conquered slowly had to adopt Arabic and Islam as their religion, culture and language. This is cultural imperialism, and imperialism as is defined in the broad catagories assigned under the names. It is "ethnocentrism" only because cultural imperialism is included there, and it is under imperialism for the purpose of when vassal states were conquered. It doesnt mean that the Arab language religion and culture was spread by warfare, but we both know that during the expansion of Islam, conquest was a big part. Arabization and Islamization (for lack of a better word) are closely linked. Guy Montag 10:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The category imperialism does not apply to Arabization. Arabization was done in areas that weren't even part of the Islamic empire, for example, after the caliphate fell. I have no idea how ethnocentrism applies either, as Arabs adopted much knowledge from other ethnicities and Arabic even has many loan words from different languages. If you want to add a section on Arabization by force in ancient times, go right ahead, but cite your sources. Yuber 13:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am not going to passionatly argue about this. All I can say is that there is alot of important information missing from this article, and in its current form there is something wrong with it. I have requested a 3rd opinion on the subject and I wont be making any edits until I see that opinion written down in talk.
Guy Montag 09:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Alright, that is understandable. The problem I had with this article was in how to specifically define the term Arabization as a migration or as a formal or informal government policy (see
Russification) after the conquest of other states asimposed on the conquered subjects. If it has to do with passive migration, then I was wrong, if it has to do with both, than something should be noted.
Guy Montag 19:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I wouldnt call them imperialist, unless you are talking about the Goths or the Visagoths. I call it pillaging, looting, and raiding :). The confusion was because of the term. I confused it with the same meaning as Russification.
Guy Montag 07:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, Arabization didn't involve much migration, did it? It was more just other ethnic groups beginning to speak Arabic and becoming culturally Arab, to my knowledge. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 06:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I wanna know does the arabized arab consider semitics? And if anyone have some info about what kind of language they spoke, especially those who settle in South Iraq. Thanks, Yours Semitic
I can answer the first one: "Semitic" is primarily a linguistic, not racial category, and since Arabs are considered Semites, and since Arabized peoples are considered Arabs, Arabized peoples are Semites. Saimdusan Talk| Contribs 07:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Flat out wrong, even according to other Wikipedia pages (check "Aramaeans" for example). None of these groups originated in or even passed through the Arabian peninsula, to the best of our knowledge. The Semitic peoples arrived in the Middle East from Africa via Sinai, then spilt into two groups - the West Semites, which include the Canaanites and later Israelites and Judeans - and the East Semites, who comprised of the Akkadians and later Assyrians and Babylonians. Arabs come from a third branch, the South Semites, and were probably a later migration since:
A) Arabic is in the same language group (South Semitic) as a few African languages such as Amharic,
B) settlement or even long-term survival in the arid Peninsula is impossible without camels, which were not domesticaed until centuries later (which also makes the claim of pre-Arab peninsular migrations completely illogical), and
C) the first mention of Arabs is in the Battle of Karkar, around the 9th Century BCE, where they are mentioned along with the relatively recently domesticated camels, long after the other groups were already firmly established in the region.
As for the Aramaeans, they probably came from Mesopotamia, possibly from the former kingdom of Mittani. No evidence has arisen to suggest an Arabian origin. I therefore suggest that this entire sentece be deleted. —This unsigned comment was added by 88.155.189.49 ( talk • contribs) 14 March 2006. "8th Century BCE" changed to "9th Century BCE" by Naughtius Maximus ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
are there any Arabs who aren't descended from arabised arabs today? I've thought about Yemen but vast intermarriage with northern African groups rules them out but the original arab tribes came from Yemen or Oman right? Dom Domsta333 ( talk) 02:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
From the article:
Countries and territories that are traditionally thought to have gone through Arabization include Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Iraq, and Sudan, although this is highly disputed.
CIA factbook on Sudan, in the language section, has a note that there is a "program of Arabization in process". I thought that would be useful information to include in the article, seems like a citable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.110.161 ( talk) 01:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Considering only the content that is sourced, the article can be boiled down to Saddam Hussein's Arabization. Should we move this page to something like "Baathist ethnic cleansing in Iraq"? TO me that would better reflect the content of the article. VR talk 20:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
in the southern arabian peninsula, standard arabic was not spoken. Old South Arabian was the predominant langauge, and South Arabian alphabet the dominant script. These were replaced by Arabic language and the Arabic script after the expansion of the caliphate, someone needs to add a section on this to the article. DÜNGÁNÈ ( talk) 01:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The term Eurabia is a term of stupidity. It is used without distinguishing between turks, kurds, iranians etc. and arabs from someone who is obviously not well educated. Regarding the figures of 5% Muslims Germany versus 95% non-muslims it is also part of hysterical conspiracy theory.-- 88.130.20.93 ( talk) 13:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
In Somali language, the Arabic word for book /kita:b/ is used ONLY for religious books, specially the Hadith and scripture books, e.g. Koran, Bible and Tora. The word buug is used for the rest of the books.-- 196.201.207.225 ( talk) 06:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The addition of mention of usage of the term "Arabization" in an information and communication technology & L10n context was deleted/reverted. What would be the best way to account for this usage - a new article? A variant on Arabization - Arabize - is even used as the name of a translation and web content company in Egypt.-- A12n ( talk) 14:19, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
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Arabization in Malaysia is fact, not POV, and please do not delete the picture. We already have discussion under Talk:Malaysia regarding Arabization in Malaysia and we have support from Wikipedia member. Please read this member wrote (below) taken from discussion page Talk:Malaysia:
"::Indeed no. There are currently issues n Malaysia with the spread of Wahhabi Islam financed by Saudi Arabia, and an attempt to radicalise Malaysian Islam. That might belong under a political/religious topic. But the typical Malaysian dress has been such for a long time, and is merely now more prevalent. What you might have been noticing, if you are new to Malaysia, and had never visited before, is that there are a lot more visitors from Arab countries, who find Malaysia a very pleasant holiday destination. They do, indeed, dress in conservative Wahhabi style - but please bear in mind that such a style is also not inherently "Moslem", rather a style of dress, and is not typically Malaysian. docboat 01:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)"
Thanks docboat Naiseroder 04:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Most of the alleged "Arabization" mentioned in this page aren't real and just an imagination of a few anti-Arabs. Many of these supposedly "arabised" people never identified themselves as Arab. The only Arabised people are those who now lives in the Arab world, speaking arabic and identifies as arabs. A lot of these allegations of "Arabisation" come from outsiders, especially Westerners (doesn't matter whether european or asian or whatever ethnicity, as long as they're westernised they will have the same warped, prejudiced view of Muslims and Arab) who knew very little outside of what they learn from the "free yet full of western bias" media. 183.171.19.23 ( talk) 10:58, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
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This article does not describe the arabization of any country. The arabization of Syria did of course not start 1946. The word "history" is there, but the history is not.
Bibiliography al-shbail, Abeer. (2017). Arabization and Its Effect on the Arabic Language. Journal of Language Teaching and Research. Halim, Wahyuddin. (2018). Islamization or Arabization? The Arab Cultural Influence on the South Sulawesi Muslim Community since the Islamization in the 17th Century. Anissa Daoudi (2018) Multilingualism in Algeria: between ‘soft power’, ‘Arabisation’, Sharkey, H.J. (2012), Language and Conflict. Stud Ethn Nation, 12: 427-449. doi:10.1111/sena.12009
‘Islamisation’, and ‘globalisation’, The Journal of North African Studies, 23:3, 460-481 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahooith ( talk • contribs) 12:17, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2020 and 1 December 2020. Further details are available
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 14:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Regarding the deWaal and Flint 2006, pp. 9 missing citation (tagged for now): while I believe it could refer to one of these two sources; [1] [2] (most likely the first, given the publication date), I can't verify the cited content as I don't have full access to either of them. M.Bitton ( talk) 22:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
This section did not mention the beginning of Arabization in Sudan from the late Middle Ages onward. - The Rashaida are mentioned, but they are not the only people who brought Arabic to Sudan. Also, I deleted the following sentence, as it does not make sense when we are speaking of MSA. "In Sudanese Arabic, the G letter is the pronunciation for Kaph and the J letter is the pronunciation for Jim." Also, I deleted the paragraph on Arabization in modern Sudan, as it inappropriately dealt with the Darfur war and Janjaweed (pictured!) , that certainly have not been agents of linguistic Arabization. - Instead I used some neutral sentences and a source from the article Languages of Sudan. Munfarid1 ( talk) 20:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)