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I deleted the section on ballet movement on this entry. There is already a link to Arabesque as ballet movement in disambiguation. The two topics are better organized seperately I believe. -- H.Perowne 00:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Somebody should put up a picture or two. Words can't really adequately describe an art style.
Hi Maveric -- hope you are offended that I removed the following -- Here's why:
"There is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger" Creed of the Umma (Islamic Community)
The prevalence of calligraphy and geometric forms in Islamic art is also due in part to an edict forbidding iconography uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (known as rasul Allah, the messenger of God -- Amer, lectures). Specifically, he states that during the Day of Last Judgment, God will ask such artists (iconographers) to breath life into their artwork. When they fail to do so, they will be condemned to hell.
The reason for this edict was to illustrate that only the One True God is capable of creating the material world. In fact the Arabic word for to-create, to-form and to-fashion are all the same. God, or Allah in the Arabic, is therefore both a divine Creator and a Musawwir, which means painter or artist (Wade, page 9). It is therefore absolute Hubris for an artist to even attempt to emulate any part of the material world in any sort of realistic way.
Bibliography
Amer, M. Lectures: Cultures of the Islamic World (Sacramento: CSUS, Spring 2000)
Bourgoin, J. Arabic Geometrical Pattern and Design (New York: Dover Publications, 1973)
Humbert, C. Islamic Ornamental Design (New York: Hastings House, 1980)
Petsopoulos, Y. Arabesques and Turbans: "Decorative Arts from the Ottoman Empire" (New York: Abbevile Press, 1982)
Wade, D. Pattern in Islamic Art (Lonon: Studio Vista, 1976)
When I get some time I'll revise the 'forbiding of images part', which is way, way overstated. Images are forbidden ONLY in the context of mosque-decoration. Indeed, there are frequently images of inanimate objects in early (c. 650-750) mosque decoration. The extension of aniconic decoration to Korans, in fact, is by analogy. It's never mentioned in the hadith. Every other aspect of Islamic art (metalwork, textiles, ceramics, mosaic decoration of houses, and MANUSCRIPTS) are full of images. Muhammad himself is often depicted in manuscript illuminations, though from the 14th century forward his face is usually obscured by a veil or by a sheet of flame (a kind of halo). --MichaelTinkler
This is now much better! And speaking of the princess and her exhibition, let me also recommend Wijdan Ali, What is Islamic Art. --MichaelTinkler
Thanks Michael! It has been a group effort to be sure. -- User:maveric149
Would it be suitable to mention here about the Ballet posture "Arabesque" or is there another page for that. If so, a disambig would be useful. 212.56.127.117 18:26, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
And how come no one's mentioning anything about the Arabesque as a musical form, e.g for piano (Schumann's "Arabeske" or the Arabesques of Debussy)?
This article is all very well, but this is not what "arabesque" actually denotes in the history of the arts. Arabesque, with as much connection to "Arab" as "grotesque" has to grotta, is a repertory of scrolling, bifurcating calligraphic, non-geometric decorative ornament, whether filling panels or whole surfaces. "Arabesque" is defined in John Fleming and Hugh Honour, Dictionary of the Decorative Arts (1977; the Oxford Companion would say very much the same) as "Intricate and fanciful surface decorations based on rhythmic linear patterns of scrolling and interlacing foliage, tendrils, etc., usually covering the entire surface with a network of fine ornament in zigzags, spirals, knots, etc. Human figures are not used—as they are in grotesques." In the human figures they differ slightly from Fiske Kimball's description (in The Creation of the Rococo, 1943, p 55) of Jean Berain's arabesque ornament: "Again we findbroken opposite scrolls, with shells or palmettes radiating from their junctions, swirls of acanthus diverging from their volutes, with finials of interlacing bandwork. In many instances a figure occupies the incorporeal central tabernacle of bands and scrolls a figure standing perhaps on a scrolled pedestal garnished with a lambrequin and sheltered by a suspended valanced baldaquin. Such was the vocabulary and vocabulary of Berain's ornament..." Arabesque ornament can be found in thirteenth to sixteenth century illumninated manuscripts. A good start is Peter Ward-Jackson, "Some main streams and tributaries in European ornament 1500-1750: Part II: The Arabesque" in Victoria and Albert Museum Bulletin July 1967. I have the issue here in the library somewhere... But I think, since the common perception of arabesque is so far from what is confidently presented in this article, it would be an uphill struggle. The Wikipedia reader should be made aware of the dislocation here, but this article is not on my Watchlist. -- Wetman 21:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Arabic art is not the same as arabesque 41.225.128.187 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC dolce dance studio can show it to you
I agree with the comments above. This subject is properly about a style of European art derived from Arabic sources. Arabesque is a French word denoting "like Arabic". It is not about the prototype itself nor about motifs in Arabic art per se. The whole article needs rewriting, perhaps with a transfer of parts of the existing text to an article on Arabic art. Also, the template is far too obtrusive and wide-ranging, for which reason I have removed it. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 18:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
Firstly, let me apologise for not having noticed your posting above. If you have seen the term Arabesque used to describe Islamic art proper, it has been incorrectly used. WP is not about following incorrect precedent. As I have explained above the French word Arab-esque means "alike to Arabic" that is to say "derivative". It cannot therefore apply to Arabic art itself, i.e. the real thing from which it derives. Arabesque was a term coined to describe a phenomenon in European art, whilst the text of this article is about the Arabic prototype from which it derived. "Arabic motif" may not be a perfect nomenclature, but it is at least not inaccurate. Arabesque is a misleading and plain incorrect title for the text contained in this article. See previous comments on this page supporting my assertion. What is the term in Arabic for the motifs described? That might be a better solution, anglicised. You say the article is pretty poor - I think it is a good article on Arabic motifs, which as you say can be improved as can any article. A new article is needed titled "Arabesque" which can be referenced to the content of the text here, explaining how Arabesques were developed by European artists from true Arabic motifs. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
You have not addressed the crux of the matter in the postings you refer to, namely the fact that arabesques are derivative forms: "A flowing linear decoration" (Penguin Dict. of Art & Artists, 1959); "A design of flowing lines, from French, from Italian arabesco in the Arabic style" (Collins Dict. of the English Language, 1986). The current text is not about such European patterns, as it should properly be, but rather about their Arabic prototypes. I have again replaced my text pending your posting here of a substantial discussion of the constructive points I have here raised.( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
Maximum Respect for your recent & ongoing rewrite. This article has the potential to be really good if it remains open-minded to both distinct senses of the term, which really do seem to exist rightly or wrongly. The argument we have been engaging in here needs to be discussed in the article itself in some form, i.e. the controversy which does exist on the 2 sides of the debate. The article must bring the reader the essence of the debate, and I do think some etymological text will be required. If both viewpoints are to be given equal weight (as I would hope), and definitely mentioned in the intro. itself, there is no point my resuming my argument here, but I will just mention my further thoughts on the issue for the record: 1) Rubens did not paint "Rubensesque art", only his imitators did. Arab artists likewise never created "Arabesque art", but rather the real thing. 2)Mention, or rather great emphasis, needs to be made of the fact that Islam forbids the depiction of human, even corporeal forms, considered idolatrous. I can't supply chapter & verse, which will need to be sourced. This is the reason why Arab artists devoted all their creativity into abstract forms. 3) In view of 2, virtually all Arabic art is abstract & linear (sinuous or angular), thus it must consist almost purely of what you term "arabesques". In other words, can you point out any common Arabic art forms which are not what you would call "arabesques"? If not, then Arabesque by your definition is indeed synonymous with Arabic art, as the article stated prior to one of your edits yesterday. But I'm not trying to destroy that understanding of the term - I still think it's technically incorrect - but accept it as an alternative common usage. I have located an image of the mosaics? on the external walls of the Treasury at the Great Mosque of Damascus, which I believe to be the ultimate inspiration for the European voluted form, probably seen during the Crusades. See
, taken from the WP article on the mosque itself. An even better image exists here: [2]. hope you will work this into your re-write, which I shall leave you to write, and perhaps suggest some edits when completed. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 20:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC))
OED: arabesque:A species of mural or surface decoration in colour or low relief, composed in flowing lines of branches, leaves, and scroll-work fancifully intertwined. Also fig.As used in Moorish and Arabic decorative art (from which, almost exclusively, it was known in the Middle Ages), representations of living creatures were excluded; but in the arabesques of Raphael, founded on the ancient Græco-Roman work of this kind, and in those of Renaissance decoration, human and animal figures, both natural and grotesque, as well as vases, armour, and objects of art, are freely introduced; to this the term is now usually applied, the other being distinguished as Moorish Arabesque, or Moresque. wierd!!
Moresque: n. Arabesque ornament; an example of this. 1458 in J. Raine Testamenta Eboracensia (1855) II. 266 Sir Thomas praith his seid executors that‥thai delyvere to William Chaworth‥iij peces of silver‥the which oon of thaym coveryth, another with a flatt knoppe and with a Moresk yeron. adj. Of painting, carving, architecture, etc.: Moorish in style or ornamental design. - Cotgrave Rebesk adj. :Obs. rare. = arabesque adj. 1. ?a1549 Inventory Henry VIII (1998) 25/2 Item one Cuppe of Agathe the fote and Couer of siluer and guilt enbossed with Rebeske worke.
I must congratulate you on the amount of work you have done in the rewrite. I am sorry to say that I still have the same concerns. Firstly, it is too essay-like, presenting a fait-accompli which discourages future edits, tending to fossilisation. This article must remain dynamic. For that reason I would like to see more structure & sections which can invite & lead to future growth of such sections. But more importantly, it still confounds all elements of Islamic figurative art from all over the Islamic world as one genre. This cannot be right and is misleading. These widely disparate motifs need to be sub-categorised, the sources are certainly there to enable this. To include the art of Cordoba and Samarkand as homogenous under any name, arabesque or other, is not tenable and serves no purpose. It adds confusion to the concept of the arabesque, which is now even more un-graspable than before. It has become a catch-all term for anything Islamic, which cannot be correct. There are 6 1/2 pages on "Islamic Arabesque" - thus admitted as being a separate concept, and less than 1 page on "Western Arabesque". The weighting is skewed. But more importantly, I am reaching the conclusion that the 2 forms are really too different & unrelated to fit comfortably and relevantly within the same article. The Western arabesque has its origins in Imperial Roman art, as depicted on the Ara Pacis (tempus Augustus) for example, where twining acanthus plants can be seen. It then was taken up, little altered, by Byzantine artists as can be seen at Rome Santa Maggiore apse, 432-40; Ravenna, Mausoleum of Galla Placidia, c.440; Great Mosque, Damascus, 7th.c., Byzantine as you pointed out; Dome of the Rock, Byzantine, mosaic in octogon, 691-2; San Clemente apse, c.1200. (Source: Talbot-Rice, D. Byzantine Art, Penguin 1968 & an excellent article in Encyc. Brit. 9th. ed.). This distinct voluted motif, and its complex historical inter-relationship with the Grotto-esque needs much more development. I can see less and less in common with these acanthus arabesques compared with your images on Islamic arabesques, and the sources I have confirm that. The Ara Pacis, Domus Aurea & Pompeii (all 1st c. AD) are the real stumbling blocks to attempting to make an equation between Islamic & Western arabesques. It is an impossible task. Chalk & cheese come to mind. In fact it seems that the term arabesque as coined in the Italian renaissance was a complete misnomer which happened to stick. They meant "Byzantine" but lacked knowledge of art history. They had yet to discover the buried Imperial prototypes of the Grottoesques at Rome & Pompeii, which would have discouraged their use of even the term Byzantine. I am therefore minded to create a new article "Arabesque (western art)" where these forms and the usage of the word (i.e. OK for a blacksmith or designer to use it as descriptive of a shape for wrought-iron, but the art-historian should use it advisedly and with great care) can be properly discussed in the isolation they seem to require, and would therefore suggest that the present article should concentrate fully on the Islamic variety and change its title to "Arabesque (Islamic art)". No doubt you will leave me the space to create such an article over the next 2 weeks or so, and let me have your comments on it then. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 22:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC))
Please see the new article now created as discussed above, before reading both of your last postings above. It should provide a basis for discussion. It is something concrete to build on, I trust. Your point as to correct usage re Ara Pacis, well made, and emphasised in the new article. The term is shown to be a misnomer, well-avoided by the art historian. I have used as many of your points in the original article under the section "Western arabesque" along with some of the images. I have mentioned prominently in the intro. the confusion, error and contradiction which exists in much of the literature, which I think we are now both fully aware of. We must discriminate between the reliable & unreliable sources. To repeat the confusion of clearly confused sources in an indiscriminate fashion is unproductive, I would suggest. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 16:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC))
The 2 articles have now been separated, with the minimal necessary re-editing & re-organisation of the existing text, and entries provided for each in the disambiguation page. "Not to be confused with" notices have also been added to each article at the top. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:15, 24 March 2011 (UTC))
We appear to be back to a more constructive dialogue, good. I have now seen your post, I had expected the discussion to be continued here, not on your talk page, but nevermind. My article is purely on the European or Western arabesque, which is in shape a "formalistic acanthus composition", i.e. a voluted form. You cannot stop yourself writing about Islamic art in the context of the non-Islamic arabesque, which is unhelpful. To deal with your points raised. Ara Pacis: you are right to say it's incorrect for an art-historian to call it thus, exactly what the article and caption itself emphasises and very clearly explains. The term is a misnomer, and the reason for its being so needs to be explained by a discussion of the Ara Pacis, which is identical in form to the designs on the Treasury, Damascus, both identical in shape to what the renaissance Italians called the arabesque, a scrollwork motif within "grotto-esque" Imperial Roman compositions. The article explains why Talbot Rice does not use the term, indeed scrupulously avoids it, because he is an art-historian writing from an art-historic viewpoint. The WP article focusses on the motif for the designer & art-historian, covering its form and origin, thus the language needs to be differentiated. Your point is simply not valid. You state above: "No one calls the Ara Pacis reliefs arabesques as a technical term", yet a blacksmith or designer would not be incorrect to do so because he is not using the term in an art-historical context, he is merely identifying the shape for practical purposes by use of a term. Perhaps to use the term "swastika" of the motif on a greek vase would produce a similar problem, indeed perhaps the WP article on that topic could be consulted as a precedent. This article is aimed at both the art-historian and the modern designer, and explains the usage matter clearly. In 2,000 years the shape itself has changed not a jot, see the image of the Russian wrought-iron gates in my text, identical to the ara pacis form, and an article about it needs to discuss its origins. Turner's encyclopaedia is an erroneous source for this subject, full stop. I have referred to the paper volume itself. The Flotner panel is Islamic, not Western, it is not a formalistic voluted form. You say "It is silly to hang an article on a term which you use differently from any of your sources, and keep having to claim they have got it all wrong", correct, but that is what happens when the whole article is about a "misnomer", there's no other way of doing it. What was silly was the Italians calling something which had its origin in the classical world "Arabesque", we have to work with that legacy of a misnomer as best we can. The article in Encyc. Brit. 9th. ed. starts with: "Arabesque, a term to which a meaning is now commonly given that is historically incorrect". It seems I am following a credible precedent. All we can do is to explain its development & show why the term is a difficult one, but useful to the designer. Your essential difficulty is that you do not accept that the European arabesque is a "formalistic acanthus composition" of voluted form. You favour a much wider undefinable "concept", which is confused, in my opinion. That is the matter which needs to be resolved in this discussion. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC))
The result of the proposal was not moved. Clearly, this is more than about the naming of the articles in question, as the split of the two art articles is the crux of the issues. I suggest the two articles be merged and reconciled. At that point the issue of primary topic and article naming can be readdressed. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Arabesque (Islamic art) → Arabesque –
or Arabesque (disambiguation) → Arabesque
Arabesque had been changed to a disambiguation page with just two entries (I've reverted it to a redirect here as the status quo for now), and I wondered whether this article was the primary topic. If it is the primary topic, it should be moved to Arabesque per WP:PRECISION. If not, the disambiguation page should be moved there. Judging from Google results, I don't see a primary topic. Looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Arabesque, there may be a primary topic, assuming most of the art-related links mean Arabesque (Islamic art), so I'm neutral for now.Relisted.-- Aervanath ( talk) 03:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)relisted-- Mike Cline ( talk) 14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC) TimBentley (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Relisted--
Aervanath (
talk)
03:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I must disagree with the way the closer is interpreting the relevant guideline. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined". So if a topic that gets more that 50 percent of the traffic, then it is primary by this standard. But there is no suggestion that only a topic that gets over 50 percent of the traffic can be primary. We even have an article that explains the logical fallacy involved: Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise. If the traffic standard is everything, why is there material in the guidelines about primary topics according to "long-term significance," or about disambiguation by detail? In the red meat/ Red Meat example, only one of the two topics can possibly be responsible for 50 percent of the traffic, yet they are both primary. In addition, I do not think it is proper to base a close on a concern that never came up during the voting, which means there was no opportunity for supporters of the move to address it. Kauffner ( talk) 16:22, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The entire article, as it stands today, reads like an essay, or an op-ed article in a Sunday newspaper's arts magazine. I believe it to be replete with unsubstantiated opinion, and hereby request that the majority of the statements made in the article be adequately supported with citations from reputable secondary sources.
For example, the ignorance implicit in a statement like the following is inexcusable in an encyclopaedia:
... this is a reflection of unity arising from diversity (a basic tenet of Islam).
The basic tenet of Islam is rather the opposite: that the Unity - (at-tauhi:d) is primary, and that diversity arises from the will of the One, that is, the God (al-lah).
It is also nonsense for an article now called Arabesque (Islamic art) to have its first major section discussing the topic and its second major section discussing what is clearly the topic of another article, viz. Arabesque (European art) and not of this article.
yoyo ( talk) 19:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
-I second the comment above. The entire section on significance is especially glib, unsubstantiated opinion with junk "links" to other "resources"--for example, it calls Islamic-style arabesques "mathematically precise" where "mathematically" links to the article on Mathematics, instead of linking the phrase to perhaps research on the mathematical precision of arabesques/Islamic art (as one might expect in support of such a claim.) It borders on being biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.189.60.141 ( talk) 11:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Here is a proposal for restructuring the current article.
I propose these main sections for the combined article Arabesque ornament (art):
Questions of the origins and sources of various sub-types of arabesque ornament should be addressed within each different sphere of influence.
A new, simpler and uncontroversial lead paragraph will also be needed.
yoyo ( talk) 19:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written all the article except for the "Significance in Islam" section, which I lacked patience & good sources for. I'm aware it is waffly and dubious, & largely unreferenced. It could be referenced, but to sources of doubtful quality. You are very welcome to replace & improve on it, using sources of a quality similar to the rest of the article. I don't think the old editor(s) are around much. The other sections are very well referenced to excellent sources. What is controversial about the lead? Nothing. It could be longer, but should not be "simpler". A clear definition is needed at the start and verbally defining things in ornament is rarely "simple". Use of the term in art history for Eupropean art is just a mess, as several sources lower down testify. Plenty of material could be added on Islamic art history.
"Arabesque ornament in the modern, globalised world." By all means add a section. Not too much about derivative interior decoration please. Johnbod ( talk) 19:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Geometric decoration often uses patterns that are made up of straight lines and regular angles but are clearly derived as a whole from curvilinear arabesque patterns; the extent to which these too are described as arabesque varies between different writers.[6]
It's time to merge Arabesque (European art) here. That is a load of unreferenced WP:OR, which mostly relates to the spiral volute not arabesques. See the discussions above from 2012. As it is, arabesques in European art are already covered here, so few changes will be needed. The other article is unfortunately too inaccurate to be re-purposed as spiral volute, but some could be used when that article is created. After the merge the article should be renamed to Arabesque (art), but let's do this one step at a time. Johnbod ( talk) 14:04, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Copied from my talk: Johnbod ( talk) 17:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I think we have a mandate to conduct the merge as you suggested. Basically there's consensus for a merge to end up with Arabesque (art), which I'd say should be the default target/primary meaning for Arabesque (so the other articles should be listed under Arabesque (disambiguation)). Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
...and so on. So the 2 art ones combined are over double the rest combined, and over 4x the next largest. Just under double if Deux arabesques is included, but that is a different term, like Arabeske (Schumann). So yes, I think the plain term with a hatnote is ok. Let's continue at the talk page. Johnbod ( talk) 17:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: including the modern definition of the word used by Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. is as important as the historical definitions. Kindly do not remove it. QuestFour ( talk) 23:58, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Fully protected for a week. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 01:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
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![]() | The contents of the Arabesque (European art) page were merged into Arabesque. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
I deleted the section on ballet movement on this entry. There is already a link to Arabesque as ballet movement in disambiguation. The two topics are better organized seperately I believe. -- H.Perowne 00:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Somebody should put up a picture or two. Words can't really adequately describe an art style.
Hi Maveric -- hope you are offended that I removed the following -- Here's why:
"There is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger" Creed of the Umma (Islamic Community)
The prevalence of calligraphy and geometric forms in Islamic art is also due in part to an edict forbidding iconography uttered by the Prophet Muhammad (known as rasul Allah, the messenger of God -- Amer, lectures). Specifically, he states that during the Day of Last Judgment, God will ask such artists (iconographers) to breath life into their artwork. When they fail to do so, they will be condemned to hell.
The reason for this edict was to illustrate that only the One True God is capable of creating the material world. In fact the Arabic word for to-create, to-form and to-fashion are all the same. God, or Allah in the Arabic, is therefore both a divine Creator and a Musawwir, which means painter or artist (Wade, page 9). It is therefore absolute Hubris for an artist to even attempt to emulate any part of the material world in any sort of realistic way.
Bibliography
Amer, M. Lectures: Cultures of the Islamic World (Sacramento: CSUS, Spring 2000)
Bourgoin, J. Arabic Geometrical Pattern and Design (New York: Dover Publications, 1973)
Humbert, C. Islamic Ornamental Design (New York: Hastings House, 1980)
Petsopoulos, Y. Arabesques and Turbans: "Decorative Arts from the Ottoman Empire" (New York: Abbevile Press, 1982)
Wade, D. Pattern in Islamic Art (Lonon: Studio Vista, 1976)
When I get some time I'll revise the 'forbiding of images part', which is way, way overstated. Images are forbidden ONLY in the context of mosque-decoration. Indeed, there are frequently images of inanimate objects in early (c. 650-750) mosque decoration. The extension of aniconic decoration to Korans, in fact, is by analogy. It's never mentioned in the hadith. Every other aspect of Islamic art (metalwork, textiles, ceramics, mosaic decoration of houses, and MANUSCRIPTS) are full of images. Muhammad himself is often depicted in manuscript illuminations, though from the 14th century forward his face is usually obscured by a veil or by a sheet of flame (a kind of halo). --MichaelTinkler
This is now much better! And speaking of the princess and her exhibition, let me also recommend Wijdan Ali, What is Islamic Art. --MichaelTinkler
Thanks Michael! It has been a group effort to be sure. -- User:maveric149
Would it be suitable to mention here about the Ballet posture "Arabesque" or is there another page for that. If so, a disambig would be useful. 212.56.127.117 18:26, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
And how come no one's mentioning anything about the Arabesque as a musical form, e.g for piano (Schumann's "Arabeske" or the Arabesques of Debussy)?
This article is all very well, but this is not what "arabesque" actually denotes in the history of the arts. Arabesque, with as much connection to "Arab" as "grotesque" has to grotta, is a repertory of scrolling, bifurcating calligraphic, non-geometric decorative ornament, whether filling panels or whole surfaces. "Arabesque" is defined in John Fleming and Hugh Honour, Dictionary of the Decorative Arts (1977; the Oxford Companion would say very much the same) as "Intricate and fanciful surface decorations based on rhythmic linear patterns of scrolling and interlacing foliage, tendrils, etc., usually covering the entire surface with a network of fine ornament in zigzags, spirals, knots, etc. Human figures are not used—as they are in grotesques." In the human figures they differ slightly from Fiske Kimball's description (in The Creation of the Rococo, 1943, p 55) of Jean Berain's arabesque ornament: "Again we findbroken opposite scrolls, with shells or palmettes radiating from their junctions, swirls of acanthus diverging from their volutes, with finials of interlacing bandwork. In many instances a figure occupies the incorporeal central tabernacle of bands and scrolls a figure standing perhaps on a scrolled pedestal garnished with a lambrequin and sheltered by a suspended valanced baldaquin. Such was the vocabulary and vocabulary of Berain's ornament..." Arabesque ornament can be found in thirteenth to sixteenth century illumninated manuscripts. A good start is Peter Ward-Jackson, "Some main streams and tributaries in European ornament 1500-1750: Part II: The Arabesque" in Victoria and Albert Museum Bulletin July 1967. I have the issue here in the library somewhere... But I think, since the common perception of arabesque is so far from what is confidently presented in this article, it would be an uphill struggle. The Wikipedia reader should be made aware of the dislocation here, but this article is not on my Watchlist. -- Wetman 21:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Arabic art is not the same as arabesque 41.225.128.187 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC dolce dance studio can show it to you
I agree with the comments above. This subject is properly about a style of European art derived from Arabic sources. Arabesque is a French word denoting "like Arabic". It is not about the prototype itself nor about motifs in Arabic art per se. The whole article needs rewriting, perhaps with a transfer of parts of the existing text to an article on Arabic art. Also, the template is far too obtrusive and wide-ranging, for which reason I have removed it. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 18:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
Firstly, let me apologise for not having noticed your posting above. If you have seen the term Arabesque used to describe Islamic art proper, it has been incorrectly used. WP is not about following incorrect precedent. As I have explained above the French word Arab-esque means "alike to Arabic" that is to say "derivative". It cannot therefore apply to Arabic art itself, i.e. the real thing from which it derives. Arabesque was a term coined to describe a phenomenon in European art, whilst the text of this article is about the Arabic prototype from which it derived. "Arabic motif" may not be a perfect nomenclature, but it is at least not inaccurate. Arabesque is a misleading and plain incorrect title for the text contained in this article. See previous comments on this page supporting my assertion. What is the term in Arabic for the motifs described? That might be a better solution, anglicised. You say the article is pretty poor - I think it is a good article on Arabic motifs, which as you say can be improved as can any article. A new article is needed titled "Arabesque" which can be referenced to the content of the text here, explaining how Arabesques were developed by European artists from true Arabic motifs. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
You have not addressed the crux of the matter in the postings you refer to, namely the fact that arabesques are derivative forms: "A flowing linear decoration" (Penguin Dict. of Art & Artists, 1959); "A design of flowing lines, from French, from Italian arabesco in the Arabic style" (Collins Dict. of the English Language, 1986). The current text is not about such European patterns, as it should properly be, but rather about their Arabic prototypes. I have again replaced my text pending your posting here of a substantial discussion of the constructive points I have here raised.( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 19:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC))
Maximum Respect for your recent & ongoing rewrite. This article has the potential to be really good if it remains open-minded to both distinct senses of the term, which really do seem to exist rightly or wrongly. The argument we have been engaging in here needs to be discussed in the article itself in some form, i.e. the controversy which does exist on the 2 sides of the debate. The article must bring the reader the essence of the debate, and I do think some etymological text will be required. If both viewpoints are to be given equal weight (as I would hope), and definitely mentioned in the intro. itself, there is no point my resuming my argument here, but I will just mention my further thoughts on the issue for the record: 1) Rubens did not paint "Rubensesque art", only his imitators did. Arab artists likewise never created "Arabesque art", but rather the real thing. 2)Mention, or rather great emphasis, needs to be made of the fact that Islam forbids the depiction of human, even corporeal forms, considered idolatrous. I can't supply chapter & verse, which will need to be sourced. This is the reason why Arab artists devoted all their creativity into abstract forms. 3) In view of 2, virtually all Arabic art is abstract & linear (sinuous or angular), thus it must consist almost purely of what you term "arabesques". In other words, can you point out any common Arabic art forms which are not what you would call "arabesques"? If not, then Arabesque by your definition is indeed synonymous with Arabic art, as the article stated prior to one of your edits yesterday. But I'm not trying to destroy that understanding of the term - I still think it's technically incorrect - but accept it as an alternative common usage. I have located an image of the mosaics? on the external walls of the Treasury at the Great Mosque of Damascus, which I believe to be the ultimate inspiration for the European voluted form, probably seen during the Crusades. See
, taken from the WP article on the mosque itself. An even better image exists here: [2]. hope you will work this into your re-write, which I shall leave you to write, and perhaps suggest some edits when completed. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 20:30, 11 March 2011 (UTC))
OED: arabesque:A species of mural or surface decoration in colour or low relief, composed in flowing lines of branches, leaves, and scroll-work fancifully intertwined. Also fig.As used in Moorish and Arabic decorative art (from which, almost exclusively, it was known in the Middle Ages), representations of living creatures were excluded; but in the arabesques of Raphael, founded on the ancient Græco-Roman work of this kind, and in those of Renaissance decoration, human and animal figures, both natural and grotesque, as well as vases, armour, and objects of art, are freely introduced; to this the term is now usually applied, the other being distinguished as Moorish Arabesque, or Moresque. wierd!!
Moresque: n. Arabesque ornament; an example of this. 1458 in J. Raine Testamenta Eboracensia (1855) II. 266 Sir Thomas praith his seid executors that‥thai delyvere to William Chaworth‥iij peces of silver‥the which oon of thaym coveryth, another with a flatt knoppe and with a Moresk yeron. adj. Of painting, carving, architecture, etc.: Moorish in style or ornamental design. - Cotgrave Rebesk adj. :Obs. rare. = arabesque adj. 1. ?a1549 Inventory Henry VIII (1998) 25/2 Item one Cuppe of Agathe the fote and Couer of siluer and guilt enbossed with Rebeske worke.
I must congratulate you on the amount of work you have done in the rewrite. I am sorry to say that I still have the same concerns. Firstly, it is too essay-like, presenting a fait-accompli which discourages future edits, tending to fossilisation. This article must remain dynamic. For that reason I would like to see more structure & sections which can invite & lead to future growth of such sections. But more importantly, it still confounds all elements of Islamic figurative art from all over the Islamic world as one genre. This cannot be right and is misleading. These widely disparate motifs need to be sub-categorised, the sources are certainly there to enable this. To include the art of Cordoba and Samarkand as homogenous under any name, arabesque or other, is not tenable and serves no purpose. It adds confusion to the concept of the arabesque, which is now even more un-graspable than before. It has become a catch-all term for anything Islamic, which cannot be correct. There are 6 1/2 pages on "Islamic Arabesque" - thus admitted as being a separate concept, and less than 1 page on "Western Arabesque". The weighting is skewed. But more importantly, I am reaching the conclusion that the 2 forms are really too different & unrelated to fit comfortably and relevantly within the same article. The Western arabesque has its origins in Imperial Roman art, as depicted on the Ara Pacis (tempus Augustus) for example, where twining acanthus plants can be seen. It then was taken up, little altered, by Byzantine artists as can be seen at Rome Santa Maggiore apse, 432-40; Ravenna, Mausoleum of Galla Placidia, c.440; Great Mosque, Damascus, 7th.c., Byzantine as you pointed out; Dome of the Rock, Byzantine, mosaic in octogon, 691-2; San Clemente apse, c.1200. (Source: Talbot-Rice, D. Byzantine Art, Penguin 1968 & an excellent article in Encyc. Brit. 9th. ed.). This distinct voluted motif, and its complex historical inter-relationship with the Grotto-esque needs much more development. I can see less and less in common with these acanthus arabesques compared with your images on Islamic arabesques, and the sources I have confirm that. The Ara Pacis, Domus Aurea & Pompeii (all 1st c. AD) are the real stumbling blocks to attempting to make an equation between Islamic & Western arabesques. It is an impossible task. Chalk & cheese come to mind. In fact it seems that the term arabesque as coined in the Italian renaissance was a complete misnomer which happened to stick. They meant "Byzantine" but lacked knowledge of art history. They had yet to discover the buried Imperial prototypes of the Grottoesques at Rome & Pompeii, which would have discouraged their use of even the term Byzantine. I am therefore minded to create a new article "Arabesque (western art)" where these forms and the usage of the word (i.e. OK for a blacksmith or designer to use it as descriptive of a shape for wrought-iron, but the art-historian should use it advisedly and with great care) can be properly discussed in the isolation they seem to require, and would therefore suggest that the present article should concentrate fully on the Islamic variety and change its title to "Arabesque (Islamic art)". No doubt you will leave me the space to create such an article over the next 2 weeks or so, and let me have your comments on it then. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 22:27, 16 March 2011 (UTC))
Please see the new article now created as discussed above, before reading both of your last postings above. It should provide a basis for discussion. It is something concrete to build on, I trust. Your point as to correct usage re Ara Pacis, well made, and emphasised in the new article. The term is shown to be a misnomer, well-avoided by the art historian. I have used as many of your points in the original article under the section "Western arabesque" along with some of the images. I have mentioned prominently in the intro. the confusion, error and contradiction which exists in much of the literature, which I think we are now both fully aware of. We must discriminate between the reliable & unreliable sources. To repeat the confusion of clearly confused sources in an indiscriminate fashion is unproductive, I would suggest. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 16:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC))
The 2 articles have now been separated, with the minimal necessary re-editing & re-organisation of the existing text, and entries provided for each in the disambiguation page. "Not to be confused with" notices have also been added to each article at the top. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:15, 24 March 2011 (UTC))
We appear to be back to a more constructive dialogue, good. I have now seen your post, I had expected the discussion to be continued here, not on your talk page, but nevermind. My article is purely on the European or Western arabesque, which is in shape a "formalistic acanthus composition", i.e. a voluted form. You cannot stop yourself writing about Islamic art in the context of the non-Islamic arabesque, which is unhelpful. To deal with your points raised. Ara Pacis: you are right to say it's incorrect for an art-historian to call it thus, exactly what the article and caption itself emphasises and very clearly explains. The term is a misnomer, and the reason for its being so needs to be explained by a discussion of the Ara Pacis, which is identical in form to the designs on the Treasury, Damascus, both identical in shape to what the renaissance Italians called the arabesque, a scrollwork motif within "grotto-esque" Imperial Roman compositions. The article explains why Talbot Rice does not use the term, indeed scrupulously avoids it, because he is an art-historian writing from an art-historic viewpoint. The WP article focusses on the motif for the designer & art-historian, covering its form and origin, thus the language needs to be differentiated. Your point is simply not valid. You state above: "No one calls the Ara Pacis reliefs arabesques as a technical term", yet a blacksmith or designer would not be incorrect to do so because he is not using the term in an art-historical context, he is merely identifying the shape for practical purposes by use of a term. Perhaps to use the term "swastika" of the motif on a greek vase would produce a similar problem, indeed perhaps the WP article on that topic could be consulted as a precedent. This article is aimed at both the art-historian and the modern designer, and explains the usage matter clearly. In 2,000 years the shape itself has changed not a jot, see the image of the Russian wrought-iron gates in my text, identical to the ara pacis form, and an article about it needs to discuss its origins. Turner's encyclopaedia is an erroneous source for this subject, full stop. I have referred to the paper volume itself. The Flotner panel is Islamic, not Western, it is not a formalistic voluted form. You say "It is silly to hang an article on a term which you use differently from any of your sources, and keep having to claim they have got it all wrong", correct, but that is what happens when the whole article is about a "misnomer", there's no other way of doing it. What was silly was the Italians calling something which had its origin in the classical world "Arabesque", we have to work with that legacy of a misnomer as best we can. The article in Encyc. Brit. 9th. ed. starts with: "Arabesque, a term to which a meaning is now commonly given that is historically incorrect". It seems I am following a credible precedent. All we can do is to explain its development & show why the term is a difficult one, but useful to the designer. Your essential difficulty is that you do not accept that the European arabesque is a "formalistic acanthus composition" of voluted form. You favour a much wider undefinable "concept", which is confused, in my opinion. That is the matter which needs to be resolved in this discussion. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 14:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC))
The result of the proposal was not moved. Clearly, this is more than about the naming of the articles in question, as the split of the two art articles is the crux of the issues. I suggest the two articles be merged and reconciled. At that point the issue of primary topic and article naming can be readdressed. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Arabesque (Islamic art) → Arabesque –
or Arabesque (disambiguation) → Arabesque
Arabesque had been changed to a disambiguation page with just two entries (I've reverted it to a redirect here as the status quo for now), and I wondered whether this article was the primary topic. If it is the primary topic, it should be moved to Arabesque per WP:PRECISION. If not, the disambiguation page should be moved there. Judging from Google results, I don't see a primary topic. Looking at Special:Whatlinkshere/Arabesque, there may be a primary topic, assuming most of the art-related links mean Arabesque (Islamic art), so I'm neutral for now.Relisted.-- Aervanath ( talk) 03:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)relisted-- Mike Cline ( talk) 14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC) TimBentley (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Relisted--
Aervanath (
talk)
03:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I must disagree with the way the closer is interpreting the relevant guideline. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says, "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined". So if a topic that gets more that 50 percent of the traffic, then it is primary by this standard. But there is no suggestion that only a topic that gets over 50 percent of the traffic can be primary. We even have an article that explains the logical fallacy involved: Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise. If the traffic standard is everything, why is there material in the guidelines about primary topics according to "long-term significance," or about disambiguation by detail? In the red meat/ Red Meat example, only one of the two topics can possibly be responsible for 50 percent of the traffic, yet they are both primary. In addition, I do not think it is proper to base a close on a concern that never came up during the voting, which means there was no opportunity for supporters of the move to address it. Kauffner ( talk) 16:22, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The entire article, as it stands today, reads like an essay, or an op-ed article in a Sunday newspaper's arts magazine. I believe it to be replete with unsubstantiated opinion, and hereby request that the majority of the statements made in the article be adequately supported with citations from reputable secondary sources.
For example, the ignorance implicit in a statement like the following is inexcusable in an encyclopaedia:
... this is a reflection of unity arising from diversity (a basic tenet of Islam).
The basic tenet of Islam is rather the opposite: that the Unity - (at-tauhi:d) is primary, and that diversity arises from the will of the One, that is, the God (al-lah).
It is also nonsense for an article now called Arabesque (Islamic art) to have its first major section discussing the topic and its second major section discussing what is clearly the topic of another article, viz. Arabesque (European art) and not of this article.
yoyo ( talk) 19:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
-I second the comment above. The entire section on significance is especially glib, unsubstantiated opinion with junk "links" to other "resources"--for example, it calls Islamic-style arabesques "mathematically precise" where "mathematically" links to the article on Mathematics, instead of linking the phrase to perhaps research on the mathematical precision of arabesques/Islamic art (as one might expect in support of such a claim.) It borders on being biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.189.60.141 ( talk) 11:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Here is a proposal for restructuring the current article.
I propose these main sections for the combined article Arabesque ornament (art):
Questions of the origins and sources of various sub-types of arabesque ornament should be addressed within each different sphere of influence.
A new, simpler and uncontroversial lead paragraph will also be needed.
yoyo ( talk) 19:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I have re-written all the article except for the "Significance in Islam" section, which I lacked patience & good sources for. I'm aware it is waffly and dubious, & largely unreferenced. It could be referenced, but to sources of doubtful quality. You are very welcome to replace & improve on it, using sources of a quality similar to the rest of the article. I don't think the old editor(s) are around much. The other sections are very well referenced to excellent sources. What is controversial about the lead? Nothing. It could be longer, but should not be "simpler". A clear definition is needed at the start and verbally defining things in ornament is rarely "simple". Use of the term in art history for Eupropean art is just a mess, as several sources lower down testify. Plenty of material could be added on Islamic art history.
"Arabesque ornament in the modern, globalised world." By all means add a section. Not too much about derivative interior decoration please. Johnbod ( talk) 19:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Geometric decoration often uses patterns that are made up of straight lines and regular angles but are clearly derived as a whole from curvilinear arabesque patterns; the extent to which these too are described as arabesque varies between different writers.[6]
It's time to merge Arabesque (European art) here. That is a load of unreferenced WP:OR, which mostly relates to the spiral volute not arabesques. See the discussions above from 2012. As it is, arabesques in European art are already covered here, so few changes will be needed. The other article is unfortunately too inaccurate to be re-purposed as spiral volute, but some could be used when that article is created. After the merge the article should be renamed to Arabesque (art), but let's do this one step at a time. Johnbod ( talk) 14:04, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
Copied from my talk: Johnbod ( talk) 17:14, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I think we have a mandate to conduct the merge as you suggested. Basically there's consensus for a merge to end up with Arabesque (art), which I'd say should be the default target/primary meaning for Arabesque (so the other articles should be listed under Arabesque (disambiguation)). Chiswick Chap ( talk) 09:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
...and so on. So the 2 art ones combined are over double the rest combined, and over 4x the next largest. Just under double if Deux arabesques is included, but that is a different term, like Arabeske (Schumann). So yes, I think the plain term with a hatnote is ok. Let's continue at the talk page. Johnbod ( talk) 17:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: including the modern definition of the word used by Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. is as important as the historical definitions. Kindly do not remove it. QuestFour ( talk) 23:58, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Fully protected for a week. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 01:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
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